1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: and today we got an art question to start off with. Uh, 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: have you out there? Have you ever been wandering through 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: a museum and looking at old paintings, especially maybe paintings 7 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: from the medieval Europe or from the Renaissance period, and 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: you happen to come across a dog holding in its 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 1: mouth maybe what looks like a big, old rolled up 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: newspaper that's on fire, or as as many people on 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: the Internet have characterized it, smoking a joint or smoking 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: a hand rolled cigarette. You know, I have to admit 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: that I had I had never noticed this before, and 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not an our expert by any stretch of 15 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: the imagination, but I feel like I've I've walked through 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: a number of really good art museums. I I've enjoyed 17 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: in the past diving into sort of detail oriented topics 18 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: that involve paintings, and yet I have never witnessed the 19 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: joint smoking dog or the firebrand bearing dog before until 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: it was brought to my attention by an an art 21 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: net dot com blog post or article that we were 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: talking about, right, So, I don't know how you came 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: across this, but you were the one who sent it 24 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: to me. And this was a blog post by an 25 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: American art critic named Ben Davis. Uh. That's very funny, 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: and it is addressing the question of why are there 27 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: so many medieval and Renaissance paintings that depict what looks 28 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: like a dog smoking a joint. That is the way 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: the author phrases it, and it's it's quite amusing because 30 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: it includes images examples of this and when you start 31 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: looking at them, yeah, it looks like these dogs that 32 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: they're doing something. They're either holding some sort of a 33 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: a joint like object, or at the very least, they 34 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: have fire. They have fire in a way that seems 35 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: totally out of keeping with what dogs actually want and 36 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: do in reality. So a few examples. There is one 37 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: painting from the sixteen sixties by an artist named Wanda 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: Pereha that features a very cute dog laid out on 39 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: the ground with stubby little four legs tucked up under 40 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: his pawnchy chest, and there is a bouquet of white 41 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: flowers tossed to the ground in front of him, and 42 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: then between his jaws he is clutching a foot long 43 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: white cylinder that is on fire on the end opposite 44 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: of his mouth. And yes, it does look like some 45 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: kind of giant cigarette or something of that kind, but 46 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: it could also be maybe a candle. I don't know. 47 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: It's just a white thing that's on fire. Yeah, And 48 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: the dog has a very relaxed vibe doing this, and 49 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: it's just kind of a chalky, relaxed dog that doesn't 50 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: look like like I'm going to burn your city down 51 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: or anything like that. He's just hanging out. This is 52 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: a smooth chalk. All these that I'm mentioning are featured 53 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: in that that article by Ben Davis, by the way. 54 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: But so there's another painting from the sixteen eighties by 55 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: Claudio Coello, and it is a portrait of a certain 56 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: religious figure, but excluding the central figure for a second. 57 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 1: In the bottom left of the frame, there's a black 58 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: and white dog with a kind of skunk coloration pattern, 59 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: and he is biting what looks like a fence post 60 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: that's on fire, and you can see his little under 61 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,679 Speaker 1: fangs in the lower canines holding fast to that burning steak. Yeah, 62 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: Now this one looks a little more fierce, a little 63 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: more mischievous even uh. There he's also next to a 64 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: spherical object. I forget what you call these um in 65 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: religious iconography of Catholicism, but it reminds me of a globe, 66 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: and so I get kind of this feeling of the 67 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: dog threatening to torch the earth. Well, and that also 68 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: seems to be a theme, because here's yet another one 69 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: that was in Davis's post. So this is by jose 70 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: guild Castro from eighteen seventeens, a later painting, but once 71 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: again there is a person at the center of this painting. 72 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: But in the lower right corner there is a bizarre scene. 73 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: There's this big old blue sphere like a big azure 74 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: beach ball, and then on top of the ball there 75 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: is a dog. Except this dog looks ferocious. He is 76 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: showing all his sharp little teeth and he's digging into 77 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: the ball with his claws, and once again he's holding 78 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: a burning stick in his mouth, except this time he's 79 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: holding the stick so that the business end, the end 80 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: that's on fire, is stabbing into the blue ball like 81 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: he's trying to burn a hole in it. So, so 82 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: what's up here well, Davis explains, actually, uh, this is 83 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: religious iconography. These are animals that mean something. Uh. So 84 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: I mentioned that in most of these artworks the central 85 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: subject is a person rather than a dog. And then 86 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: there's a dog with a with a burning stick or 87 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: a cigarette or whatever down in the corner. The person 88 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: in the middle of the painting is almost always one 89 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: of two people. It is either St. Jayne Santa Juana 90 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: of of Aza or her son St. Dominic Santo Domingo, 91 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: who was a very important figure in the history of 92 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church lived from the twelfth to the thirteenth century, 93 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: and he was a Catholic priest who founded the Dominican 94 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: Order in twelve sixteen. Uh to read from davis quote, 95 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: thereby setting the world on fire metaphorically in terms of 96 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: spreading the faith. As a matter of fact, Dominican preachers 97 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: were sometimes called Dominique khans or the dogs of the 98 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: Lord Goodness. It's a very good medieval pun for you. 99 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: But so, according to legend, St. Dominic's mother St. Jane 100 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: was granted a premonition in the form of a vision 101 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: from God, and in her vision she saw that she 102 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: was pregnant, but with a dog, and the dog carried 103 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: a flaming tortun in its mouth, and then when she 104 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: in the vision gave birth to the dog, it was 105 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: run and around. It darted all over the place with 106 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: the torch and set fire to everything. And this was 107 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: interpreted to me and that her son would metaphorically set 108 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: the world on fire, meaning he would preach a message 109 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: that would reach the ends of the earth. And so 110 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: by establishing the Dominican Order, I think, you know, they 111 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: were largely well. They had a number of concerns, but 112 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: one of them was like preaching against heresies of the 113 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: Middle Ages. So if you're a heretic, you need to 114 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: watch out for the dog with the flaming brand because 115 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: it is coming to set the world on fire. Now, 116 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: I have to say, in some of these images I 117 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: totally get this vibe, you know, particularly that one that 118 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: where he's not he's not actually making contact with the 119 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: globe like object that he seems to be threatening to do. 120 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: So I can see it. This is a vision dog. 121 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: This is a dog that is bringing prophecy from divine realms. 122 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: But that first guy that that that that chunky one 123 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: we were talking about, I don't know he he doesn't 124 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: look like he's wandered out of any vision. He looks 125 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: like the painter had a much beloved dog his life 126 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: and decided, well, if I'm going to put in this 127 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: dog of prophecy, I'm gonna put my dog Schakers in there. 128 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: And uh, and that's who I want to paint. You know, 129 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: this is something I often wonder looking at old paintings 130 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: and sculptures of religious figures. So if there's a a 131 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: painting of of John the Baptist where he looks really hunky, 132 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: is it because this person, you know, the painter was 133 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: filled with religious fervor for this scene involving John the 134 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: Baptist and really wanted to depict that. Or is it 135 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: because he like had a friend or a model or 136 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: something that he really wanted to paint and he's like, 137 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: who can I I'll say, this guy is John the Baptist. Yeah. Yeah, 138 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: And ultimately I think in some cases that is the reality. 139 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: You have painters who want to paint, say the human 140 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: form and it are you know, obsessed with the with 141 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: anatomy and the and how to properly relate that in 142 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: the painting. But how are you going to do that 143 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: and get paid? You know, Uh, but well this could 144 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: be this could be the dog version, right. Yeah, so 145 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: this is like you're saying, this is his dog that 146 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: he loves, and he was just wants to paint the dog. 147 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: He's like, how can I? Oh, I know this is 148 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: the dog of the vision of St. Jayne. Yeah, and 149 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: he's looking right at you. It's a beautiful painting. It's 150 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: a very lifelike rendering of this dog. Yeah, Wanda Parade, 151 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: two thumbs up. I love your chalk. Now, all of 152 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: this talk of holy dogs and uh Catholic tradition, you 153 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: know this. This is all well and good, but uh, 154 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: one one question that that certainly arises is do we 155 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: find anything like this anywhere else in the world, Because 156 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: on one hand, like I said, this is not something 157 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: dogs do. This is not something around yeah, carry fire 158 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: around it. In fact, I was looking around to find 159 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: any account of this happening, certainly any like videos of like, oh, 160 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: here's our dog. He likes to carry a flaming brand 161 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: around the house, and I found virtually nothing. The closest 162 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: I came was a video that allegedly is of a 163 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: dog swooping in to grab a lit firework before it 164 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: can blast off. Yeah, exactly the same here I was. 165 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: I was thinking, is this a natural phenomenon or their 166 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: observed conditions where a dog will commonly pick up a 167 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: flaming stick? And I was looking all over the place 168 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: and found nothing really except I found a couple of 169 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: instances of people talking about dogs that had specifically been 170 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: trained to carry a flaming torch or something. But it 171 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: was just in the context of dogs being trained to 172 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: do all kinds of tricks like jump through a flaming 173 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: hoop or anything like that. So I think carrying a 174 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: flaming torch is something you could train a dog to do, 175 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: in the sense that you can train a dog to 176 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: do just about anything. So it would stand a reason 177 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: it would seem possible that maybe this is just a 178 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: one off, you know, it's certainly if we believe this, uh, 179 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 1: this story, that this is a dog of vision and prophecy, 180 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: you know, just sort of random dream imagery that comes together, uh, 181 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: you know, or some sort of a vision, some sort 182 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: of hallucination, whatever, the you know, the the real world 183 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: situation might be that maybe this is just something that 184 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: occurs once in human traditions and we're not likely to 185 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: expect to see it pop up anywhere else, and yet 186 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: I found one. I found another dog with a with 187 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: a flaming stick. Uh, And I'm not I'm still not 188 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: sure exactly what to make of it. How much of 189 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: it we can sort of chalk up to, uh, you know, 190 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: cultural convergent evolution or if if if Ultimately we can 191 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: get down to certain realities about dogs and humans, humanities, 192 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: relationship with the dog. Um. You know, I think maybe 193 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: it's a little bit of both of those, so you 194 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: might So you're wondering, where is this? Where do we 195 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: have to go to find this other dog with the 196 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: flaming brand? Well, we have to travel once more to 197 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: pre Columbian um Mesoamerica. We have to travel to the 198 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: Aztec world and also the Mayan world and look to 199 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: the fire carrying dog in these cultures as well. Okay, 200 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,599 Speaker 1: I'm ready to go. All right, Well, let's start with 201 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: the Aztecs and I'll come back to some of the 202 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: Mayan examples, but uh, just to refresh the Aztec world. 203 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: This flourished in the central Mexico from around thirteen hundred 204 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: to fifteen twenty one. They rose out of obscurity among 205 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: various indigenous peoples of the region and became a dominant power. Now, 206 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: civilizations are of course a human affair, but of course 207 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: they always entail other species, including domesticated plants and animals. 208 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: So we've discussed the importance of maize to the Aztecs 209 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,719 Speaker 1: as well as other crops, but they also had some 210 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: domesticated animals. The their domestic animals included turkeys, which I 211 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: believe we discussed Aztecs and their turkeys in the past. 212 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: Also bees. I think there are some cases for ducks 213 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: and geese and maybe quail, but I see that in 214 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: some sources. But on the other so, I'm I'm not 215 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: entirely certain that that is a definite or or maybe 216 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: even a universal reality of of of Aztecs. Maybe there 217 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: were certain regions where they may have had some domestic 218 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: ducks and geese, but for the most part, when you 219 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: talk about the domesticated animals of the Aztecs, you're talking 220 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: about the turkey, you're talking about bees, and you're talking 221 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: about the dog, the old reliable, the dogs always there. Yes, yeah, 222 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: and and and I really think it's important to keep 223 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: in mind through all this that I think that's that 224 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: seems to be a universal thing. I think that Ultimately, 225 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: the way that like medieval Europeans viewed the dog is 226 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: largely in keeping with the way Aztecs and minds viewed 227 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: the dog as well. They're gonna be some differences as 228 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 1: well discuss, but I think ultimately there's a lot about 229 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: the dog being man's best friend in all of this. 230 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: You know, the dog is the creature that sticks by you, 231 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: and and maybe ultimately like that is where we get 232 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: this idea of the dog carrying the flame, because who 233 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: else is going to carry the flame for humanity? Is 234 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: it going to be the cat? Now? So I was 235 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: reading about all of this in The Use and Significance 236 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: of Animals in Aztec Rituals by Maria Convalineri from twenty 237 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: from two thousand and nine, and she points out a 238 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: few important things here. First of all, she points out 239 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: that the Aztecs were really latively poor in domesticated animals 240 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: compared to various other cultures we might look to. Common 241 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: people would only eat meat on special occasions. They had 242 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: no draft animals. The turkey was ultimately their greatest domestic 243 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: meat source, and their eggs also provided protein. But they 244 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: also had dogs, and not merely one variety of dogs 245 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: or just dogs in the generic sense. They had several 246 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: varieties of dog, and one of these was apparently used 247 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: almost exclusively for food. And this was true of the 248 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: Mayans as well, as Alan Jay Christensen points out in 249 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: pople Vou, the Sacred Book of the Maya Volume one, 250 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: the Mayans also depended on the dog, the turkey, and 251 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: the honey bee. And these dogs were quote small, fat, 252 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: nearly hairless. Uh, and they didn't bark. But that but 253 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: here's the important thing to drive home is that they 254 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: weren't just it wasn't just a food species. They were 255 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: both food and pet. This was a creature that would 256 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: that was a companion that was a pet. But then 257 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: also under certain circumstances, again not every day, but but 258 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: but when necessary, it was also a food species. Now 259 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: some of the details of the Aztec dog, they were 260 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: apparently I'm reading three different rough varieties. There's the medium 261 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: sized furred dog. The it's quintly and this was also 262 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: a hunting dog. So that's an important thing to keep 263 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: in mind too, like the dog also has this purpose 264 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: and cultures around the world where it's helping us a 265 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: choir food. Then there is the medium sized hairless dog. 266 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: And this is the Showlitz quintly And this is um 267 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: this this would have been a dog that would have 268 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: been used as one of these these pets slash food dogs. 269 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: And then there's also a short legged, furred dog and 270 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: this is the cloud chee chee. And I'm reading that 271 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: this one might have also been a meat dog at 272 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: times as well. Now, according to UH Confelinary, it seems 273 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: that the hairless variety was primarily the food dog, at 274 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: least in some read but again only for special occasions. UH. 275 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: And there are Aztec depictions of their wrinkled hairless faces, 276 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: and these are worth looking up like it's it's undeniable, 277 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: Like this is not a um um, you know, a 278 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: loupine or type of a dog face. This is not 279 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: the face of a coyote. Coyotes were of course also 280 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: around in the wild. No, this is the face of 281 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: the domestic dog. And I do think we need to 282 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: be careful, of course, not to equate the consumption of 283 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: dog meat with cruelty to animals in this context, at 284 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: least no more than we might equate any traditional historic 285 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: meat consumption to cruelty, Because, as Confelinary stresses, these dogs 286 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: were also pets. Uh, certainly with the furred varieties, but 287 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: even the hairless ones, they would have been well treated, 288 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: and they fulfilled the role of both pet and food. 289 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: And there was a religious reason to treat dogs well, 290 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: be they you know, hunting dog or a dog that 291 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: would be used for for for food. At some point, 292 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: dogs were seen as psychopomps by the as text, which 293 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: is to say, it was the role of the dog 294 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: to shepherd the human soul across the ninefold stream to 295 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: reach the center of the underworld, the afterlife of Midland. Interesting. Yeah, 296 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: and in some accounts, you have to be very particular 297 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: about the color of the dog. I found this interesting. Uh. 298 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: The idea was that white dogs have just bathed, and 299 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: therefore they're not gonna enter the waters. They're not gonna 300 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: get you across the ninefold stream to the center of 301 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: the afterlife. Um. Black dogs, on the other hand, they 302 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: will cross, but they can only carry their own souls. 303 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: What you need is like a yellow dog. That's the 304 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: dog that's gonna get you across the ninefold stream. Uh, 305 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: that's gonna carry its own soul, but also yours. Interesting. Now, 306 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: Confolinari shares a great quote from twentieth century pre Columbian 307 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: art expert Elizabeth P. Benson on all of this, it 308 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: kind of sums up and extrapolates on why the dog. 309 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: Why is the dog the psychopomph? Benson wrote, dogs are 310 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: appropriate escorts for the dead. They walk with their noses 311 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 1: to the ground. They dig in the earth, barry bones 312 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: and hunt in burrows. They eat carrion and make themselves 313 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: smell of it. They have night vision. They howl at night. 314 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: They know what is there in the darkness relating to 315 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: the earth, the dead, things to sounds and smells that 316 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: are imperceptible to humans. Dogs have esoteric knowledge and special 317 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: connections with the underworld. Oh that's a wonderful observation about 318 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: the the inferred supernatural power of a dog, just because 319 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 1: of the different kind of sense realms a dog can 320 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: occupy that the dog detects something in the darkness before 321 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: you do. They hear it before you do. They might 322 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: be able to see or smell things that you can't see, 323 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: or smell, or certainly smell things you can't smell. So 324 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: you would you would agree with this as a dog owner? 325 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, pretty much. Any dog owner, I think would 326 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: have the experience of the dog knows something around the 327 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: house is going on before you do. They know that 328 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: somebody is approaching the front door before you do, or 329 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: you take maybe you go out back in the darkness 330 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: and in the nighttime, and the dog knows something is 331 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: there that you don't detect in any way, and maybe 332 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: it's a possum on top of the offense or something. Um. 333 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: But but yeah, yeah, the the dog is aware of 334 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: things before you're aware of them, and sometimes things that 335 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: you never become aware of. Maybe it um it. It's 336 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: attention perks up and it barks at something in the 337 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: darkness that comes and goes and then it's gone and 338 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: you never see what it is. That could, given the 339 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: right mindset, leads someone to believe that the dog is 340 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: maybe interacting with spirits or interacting with with with something 341 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: beyond the human sense realm. Yeah, yeah, And of course 342 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: even if you're not going to the spiritual uh extreme 343 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: of that interpretation, undoubtedly the dog is a protector. The 344 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: dog is raising an alarm. Even if it can't bark, 345 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: it'll raise some sort of an alarm that's something is 346 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: perhaps there that shouldn't be Uh, it's gonna play a 347 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: role in protecting, uh, the domicile, perhaps also helping to 348 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: protect the crops to some degree. Yeah, so that's important 349 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: to keep in mind here as well. But there's another 350 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: thing mentioned in Benson's quote that is also interesting about 351 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: the association with with say death and carrion. I mean, 352 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: so as as beautiful and sweet and pure as as 353 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: dogs are, at least in my mind, they're also they're 354 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: interested in disgusting dead things that humans, that will make 355 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: the human senses revolt and that will make you want 356 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: to stay away. But the dog wants to approach. So 357 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: it makes sense. This is this is a world they 358 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: understand we may be repelled by. And therefore, who's going 359 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: to guide you through the realms of death? You're good, 360 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,719 Speaker 1: old dog. Now. One of the issues here is that 361 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: the dog, if this dog is gonna guide you through 362 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: the afterlife, it also needs to cross over with you 363 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: as well. It needs to be buried with you. And 364 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: thus dogs were also used in ritual sacrifice by the Aztects. 365 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: But where does fire come into all this, you're probably wondering. 366 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: So far this dog has not been running around with fire. Well, 367 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna We're gonna get to that here um those 368 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: certainly the idea of the dog guiding you through a 369 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: dark underworld like that that already leans itself to interpretations 370 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: of a dog carrying some sort of fire, a dog 371 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: lighting the way and being your guide through the darkness. 372 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: So the next fact worth mentioning in all this current 373 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: concerns the Aztec god Sholatl, described guy by confolin Ary 374 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: as skeletal, dog faced, or dog bodied. Now Sholatl is 375 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: the twin of quetzal Codal, also described as the god 376 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: of monsters and the patron deity of twins, both human 377 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: twins and also just sort of general twinning in nature 378 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 1: anytime something seems to have a dual existence or nature, 379 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: and the connection here does seem to be to the 380 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: domestic dog too. When we're talking about this this god 381 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: being dog faced or dog bodied, it's not the coyotes face. 382 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: It's you know, which was a wild scavenger, and it 383 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: is also sometimes associated with the god of the smoking 384 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: near uh ts Catl Polka. Depictions of Cholatto, including one 385 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: discovered during the construction of the Mexico City subway system, 386 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: includes details clearly associated with the hairless, wrinkle face domestic dog. 387 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: So to be clear, food pet dog reflected in the 388 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: divine image here, not a wild dog or even a 389 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: hunting dog. This is uh, this is the the hairless, 390 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: wrinkly dog that is the face or even the body 391 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: of the divine So you've got a picture here of this, 392 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: this carving of the dog face. Yeah, and it is 393 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: unmistakably doggy because you see the wrinkles in the skin, 394 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: and you see the kind of relatively stubby snout compared 395 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: to what you'd see with like a wool for a coyote. Yeah. Yeah, 396 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 1: absolutely so. So there doesn't seem to be any mystery 397 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: here concern earning this god's connection to the domestic dog. 398 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: So to the Aztecs, dogs were important. They were valued 399 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: for their companionship, their loyalty, their food value, their protective 400 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: nature to both the family and the crops. They were 401 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: important enough to be the likeness of a major deity, 402 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: a god of twins and monsters, but also a god 403 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,239 Speaker 1: of lightning and fire. So this raises the question, right, 404 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: why is the dog also associated with fire and Aztec traditions. Well, 405 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: here we come at last yet to the idea of 406 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: the Aztec dog as firebringer. Herman Buyer explored this in 407 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: the Symbolic Meaning of the Dog in Ancient Mexico, published 408 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: in the in the American Anthropologists back in nineteen o eight. 409 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: Now referring back to the different dog varieties again, there's 410 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: that medium sized furred dog, or it's quintly, but it's 411 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: quintly also just means dog more generally. And then the 412 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: dog also played a role in the Aztec zodiac, so 413 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: the day of this dog it occurs at the end 414 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 1: and is therefore associated with the god mic lant Culti, 415 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: lord of the realm of the dead, who rules over 416 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: Micklin with his bride. And we see this in my 417 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,479 Speaker 1: traditions as well, as Buyer points out where the symbol 418 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: for dog is mainly a thorax and a skeleton. A thorax, yeah, 419 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: thora like an insect thorax. Yeah, I was looking at 420 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: examples of it, and um, I don't know. The comparison 421 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: is maybe a little lost on me because I'm just 422 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: not used to looking at these characters. But I mean, 423 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: I take I take the researcher's word for it. I mean, 424 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: I guess mammals would have a thorax too, so it 425 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: would be like the dog's chest sort of now to 426 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: come back to Chilato here, uh Buyer writes that Cholato's 427 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: job is also to carry the sun through the underworld 428 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: and is associated with a particular constellation in the night 429 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: sky that was known as the fire Sticks. And so 430 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: the association here, Buyer writes is that the fire drill 431 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: method of fire production is linked to the dog into 432 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: this deity. The constellation here is possibly the Belt of 433 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: Orion Um. I've seen some some back and forth on that, 434 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: but I think the Belt of Orion is the popular 435 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: UH interpretation of discussions of this particular constellation, and he's 436 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: a sauce also associated with the Polades star cluster and 437 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: the fire drill method of fire production. This would be 438 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: a friction based method for forgetting a fire going right 439 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: for Yeah, it would involve a setup for rapidly rotating 440 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: one piece of wood on another to generate heat through 441 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: friction that would help spark some kindling. Yeah. We we 442 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: discussed this a bit in our fire Technology series of 443 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: invention episodes. This would have been a very early way 444 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: to produce fire. And you also see Prometheus type characters 445 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: and other religions and traditions that that are closely associated 446 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: with the fire drill. I've seen the Chinese version of 447 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: this as being referred to in translation as the fire driller. 448 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: So it makes sense that that the primordial connection with 449 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: fire production would be tied in with this technology. Now 450 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: there's also there also does seem to be a connection 451 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: as well between Scholatl and Venus appearing in the in 452 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: the night sky as a morning star. Again, we're getting 453 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: into this idea that that this deity and or the 454 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: dog carry the fire through the underworld, carry the sun 455 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: through the underworld. And so this gets into the idea 456 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: of like where does Venus go? Where does the sun 457 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: go when it is not in the sky? Well, it 458 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: is of course traveling beneath the earth, it is traveling 459 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: through the underworld. So um, in all of this, I 460 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: have to stress that I'm I'm not giving full justice 461 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: to the complexity and richness of Aztec astrology here. Whole 462 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: books have been written about Aztec astrology, uh and and it. 463 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: But it seems that that there are complex astrological associations 464 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: between dogs and death and fire, and that the has 465 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: worked in unison with less abstract aspects of the dog's 466 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 1: nature and role in society and it's just overall value 467 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: to humanity. Now in in my In traditions, as reflected 468 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: in the Mayan codices, the dog is also the firebringer. 469 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: I was reading about this in The Dragon and the Dog, 470 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: Two Symbols of Time in Non All Religion by Frank J. Newman. 471 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: Newman writes, quote, the dog is often depicted in the 472 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: Maya codices carrying a torch, perhaps a reference to the 473 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: Maya tradition that the dog brought fire to mankind, and 474 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: the head of a dog is sometimes part of the 475 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: compound glyph which represents the fire drill. Okay, so, if 476 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: I'm understanding everything I've been looking at here, it sounds 477 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: as if we have a few things going on sort 478 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: of feeding into each other. First of all, astrological associations 479 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,479 Speaker 1: between dogs and fire. Uh. Secondly mythological connotations of the 480 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: dog or dog headed deities as firebringers. And then connections 481 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: some mythological and some astrological connecting dogs to the dead 482 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: and to the realm of the dead. And on top 483 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: of that, though, I think perhaps some manner of bleed 484 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: over between control of fire as a major factor in 485 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: human civilization and the importance of the domestic dog which 486 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: again in this context, would have served pretty much all 487 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: of the values placed on the domestic dog in the 488 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: modern context you know, companion, guardian, etcetera, with the added 489 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: context of being the their only domesticated mammalian protein source. 490 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: You know, again, they did not have the domesticated cow, 491 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: the domesticated pig, all of these these other creatures to 492 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: help provide the nutrition they needed. The dog was the 493 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: only domestic mammal that could fulfill that that need. I've 494 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: also read that at least in some Mesoamerican traditions and accounts, 495 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: the dog is credited with discovering corn, which would would 496 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: also be a huge achievement on par with fire in 497 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: some regards. Uh. So, so again we see these multiple 498 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: connections here that that's speak to the dog's role in civilization, 499 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: like the fact that humans have mastery over things that 500 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: enable them to to build civilizations and to keep going 501 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: year after year. Uh, and to pass on something to 502 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: to their children. Uh, it's the fire, it's the crops 503 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: that are key, but also the dog. Yeah, this is 504 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: a fascinating triangle that sort of says something about about 505 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,959 Speaker 1: the human species. Of the triangle of humans, dogs and 506 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: fire and uh, and so I wanted to transition from 507 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: here to look at a little bit of the scientific 508 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: evidence and and current leading hypotheses about the history of 509 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: the relationship between humans and these two elements of nature 510 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: and of of technology, in fact of fire, end of 511 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: dogs UM. So one of the things I wanted to 512 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: start off with here is remembering an interesting fact from 513 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: some of our past episodes. We did a couple of 514 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: episodes about UM about the history of fire on planet Earth, 515 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: and and the observation is this Earth is sometimes thought 516 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: of as the water planet, which is a good descriptor 517 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,239 Speaker 1: there's a lot of liquid water on our surface, but 518 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: I think it's also quite reasonable to think of Earth 519 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: as the fire planet. Earth is really the only place 520 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: in the Solar System that allows for fire, certainly in 521 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: significant amounts, because in order to burn fire needs heat, 522 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: fuel and oxygen. And there are plenty of places in 523 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: the Solar System where you can find lots of heat, 524 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: but fuel and free oxygen are much more scarce. The 525 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: Earth is absolutely packed with these two things. It is 526 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: packed with fuel in the form of concentrated carbon molecules 527 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: produced by the biosphere, and it is packed with free oxygen. 528 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: And the atmosphere, which is also produced by the biosphere. 529 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: So so the conditions giving rise to the potential for 530 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: free burning fires actually are very much a product of 531 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: Earth's biology, the presence of life on Earth. Beyond that, 532 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: another interesting thing that makes it Earth the fire planet 533 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: is that, like humans don't have to be there to 534 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: start fires, Earth's weather systems naturally provide the flint that 535 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: continually strikes natural fires in the form of lightning. So 536 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: Earth is a place where where fire is not only possible, 537 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: but fire occurs. Right now, to come back to what 538 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, Yes, Earth has fire, Earth 539 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: has dogs, but you really don't see a lot of 540 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: crossover between the two. Um In addition to what I 541 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, I mean, the most I really came across 542 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: was the idea that, yes, dogs will warm themselves by fires, 543 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: be at a camp fire or even some other form 544 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: of fire. There are situations where dogs have been observed 545 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: to take advantage of that heat, but other than that 546 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: there they don't seem to really interact with fire much, 547 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: which makes sense most you know, most species, even those 548 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: that have a life cycle that depends on periodic burns. 549 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that their anatomy is has has evolved 550 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: to actually deal with the reality of fire. Right then. Now, 551 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: there are some examples we've discussed before on the show 552 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: of animals appearing to, at least according to some reports, 553 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: make direct use of fire. For example, the fire hawks 554 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: of of Australia, which have been alleged to uh say, 555 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: use burning sticks to start fires to drive out prey 556 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: animals that they can then swoop down an attack. Um 557 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: I could not find any evidence of any species of Canada, 558 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: or any carnivore mammal for that matter, doing anything like this, 559 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: So so this does not appear to be something that 560 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: happens at nature in nature, at least on a regular basis. 561 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: But this did get me thinking about the history of 562 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: human domestication of fire and of human domestication of dogs, 563 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: both of which are fascinating and contentious subjects deep in 564 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: our past. Um So a few facts. First of all, 565 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: while there's a lot we don't know about both of 566 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: these subjects, I do think it's very clear that our 567 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: human ancestors domesticated fire long before they domesticated dogs. So 568 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: for a few facts about the general timeline of fire 569 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: development among ancient humans and human ancestors. I was looking 570 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: at a paper published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal 571 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: Society b Biological Sciences from twenty sixteen by a professor 572 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: of archaeology at the University of Liverpool named John Gaulet, 573 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: and it's called the discovery of fire by humans a 574 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: long and convoluted process. So in summarizing the existing evidence, 575 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: Galllet writes that finding evidence of fire use by really 576 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: ancient humans and human ancestors is sometimes difficult, right because 577 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: fire is not like it's not like a stone artifact, 578 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: though it does leave physical traces that you can on cover. 579 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: And he writes that by about one point five million 580 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: years ago, there are a number of sites occupied by 581 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: our hominan ancestors that show signs of burned material consistent 582 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: with deliberate fire use. Now, one point five million years 583 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: ago is a long time ago, but but this far 584 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: back the evidence is somewhat inconsistent. And it's worth noting 585 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: that the presence of fire at a human or or 586 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: hominin camp site is not necessarily evidence of the ability 587 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: to strike fire from nothing, say, by using a fire 588 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: drill or flint and tinder box or anything like that. 589 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: Human humans and human ancestors probably captured and preserved fires 590 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: from nature long before we had reliable fire striking methods. 591 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: But Galllet writes that by the time of the Middle Pleistocene, 592 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: so that would be between about three quarters of a 593 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: million years ago and about a hundred and twenty five 594 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: thousand years ago. H quote recognizable hearths demonstrate a social 595 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: and economic focus on many sites, so the Middle Pleistocene 596 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: seems to be pretty widely accepted as a time by 597 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: which fire use became widespread and common among humans. Now. 598 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: As wonderful as dogs are, fire is probably more pivotal 599 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: to human history and evolution. It's it's necessary for the 600 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: development of almost all post Stone Age technology, So all 601 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: technologies based on metal involve the use of fire and 602 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: their creation. Basically, all technologies after the Neolithic period would 603 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: need fire in order to be made. That this reminds 604 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: me of the quote that outside of a dog, a 605 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: book is man's best friend, but inside of a dog 606 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: it's too dark to read. You need to fire. Yeah, 607 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: Mark's brother, so yeah, you need the fire. But even 608 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: past the role of fire in creating a lot of 609 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: later stages of human technology, it's even been hypothesized that 610 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: fire has played major roles in in changes to human biology, 611 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: and this is not something that's known for sure, but 612 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: there are a number of theories that involve the intersection 613 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: of fire and changes to humans are our ourselves our 614 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: own biology. So one major example is the cooking hypothesis, 615 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: which I think we've alluded to on the show before. 616 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: Maybe someday we should devote a full episode to that 617 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: talk about some of the evidence for and against. But 618 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: this is a hypothesis put forward by a British anth 619 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,479 Speaker 1: apologist and primatologists named Richard Wrangham, which argues that there 620 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: is a link between the invention of cooking, which necessitates fire, 621 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: and the shape of modern human bodies guts and brains 622 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: and in rangum zone. Words from a paper dealing with 623 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: some of the more recent evidence foreign against this hypothesis quote. 624 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: The cooking hypothesis posits that control of fire leads to 625 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: such a large increase in energy acquisition and that means 626 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: through eating and reduces the physical challenges of eating food 627 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: so greatly that the evolution of an obligation to incorporate 628 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 1: cooked food into the diet should be recognizable by evidence 629 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: of novel digestive adaptations and increased energy use. Yeah, we 630 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: have to remember that with cooking, we're talking about to 631 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: a very large degree, the externalization of human digestion. Things 632 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: that previously, if we were going to digest it, it 633 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: was all going to have to happen inside of us. 634 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: Now we could, we could take steps towards the acquisition 635 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: of those nutrients, sometimes nutrients that would not be available 636 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: to us if we did not cook them. We're able 637 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: to do that outside the human body, right, I mean 638 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: as sort of central to what Rangum is saying here 639 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: is that subsisting entirely on a raw food diet versus 640 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 1: subsisting on a cooked food diet, that is such a 641 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: huge difference that you would expect basically different kinds of animals. 642 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: That is a gigantic adaptation that would change. It would 643 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: change the way your mouth needs to work. You would 644 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: need to devote way less energy to having a strong 645 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 1: jaw for chewing and crushing. It would change the way 646 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: your gut needs to work. And of course the body 647 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: could maybe spend that energy on other things. And like 648 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: I said, maybe we should come back and do a 649 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: whole episode on that someday, because yeah, I was looking 650 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: at some of the arguments foreign against this, and it 651 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 1: seems like an interesting debate. But so not to say 652 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: that the cooking hypothesis is necessarily correct, But I do 653 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: think it's inarguable that fire is a major part of 654 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: the development of all human and culture and shapes our 655 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: lives tremendously. So some use of fire by human ancestors 656 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: probably goes back more than a million years. Uh, the 657 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: use of fire was common among human ancestors at least 658 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: a few hundred thousand years ago by most estimates. The 659 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: domestication of dogs seems to be roughly in order of 660 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: magnitude more recent. So if common use of fire goes 661 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: back at least a few hundred thousand years, domestication of 662 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: dogs seems to go back in the past few tens 663 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: of thousands of years than now. On the scientific evidence 664 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: for the history of the domestication of dogs. There's also 665 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: a lot of disagreement here. But there was one recent 666 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: development I've actually been wanting to talk about on the 667 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: show for a bit, and this gives us a good 668 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: chance to do it today. So there was a paper 669 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: that was published just earlier this year by Angela our 670 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: period all published in p N a se called dog 671 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: domestication and the dual dispersal of people and dogs into 672 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: the Americas. And this was a paper that was trying 673 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: to settle some some ongoing debates and outstanding questions about 674 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: the history of dog domestication and how that relates to 675 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,399 Speaker 1: the history of human migration over the continents. And so 676 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: this study tried to use DNA evidence from both dogs 677 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 1: and humans to try to trace the history of the 678 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: relationship between the two and uh according to the authors here, 679 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: their findings suggests quote that dogs were domesticated in Siberia 680 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: by about twenty three thousand years ago, possibly while both 681 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: people and wolves were isolated during the harsh climate of 682 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: the last Glacial Maximum. Dogs then accompanied the first people 683 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: into the Americas and traveled with them as humans rapidly 684 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: dispersed into the continent beginning about fifteen thousand years ago. 685 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: So I was reading a really good write up of 686 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,760 Speaker 1: this new paper by David Grimm in Science that fills 687 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,280 Speaker 1: in some more context on this and give some texture 688 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 1: to it. So um, according to the model put forward 689 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 1: by the study, Grim rights that the people who domesticated 690 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: dogs probably lived in the area of northeastern Siberia, during 691 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 1: the later part of the last glacial period the Last 692 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: Ice Age, and these would have been human hunter is 693 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: using stone tipped weapons who probably subsisted on megafauna like 694 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: bison and wooly mammoths, and the wolf like ancestors of 695 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: modern dogs may have actually been helping these humans in 696 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: their hunting. And then from here from this ancestral population 697 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: in northeastern Siberia, the descendants of these proto dogs went 698 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: both east and west with their human companions, so east 699 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: into the Americas and then west into Eurasia. So the 700 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: team behind the study, they relied on physical evidence in 701 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: the form of mitochondrial DNA from a human and dog remains. 702 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 1: Mitochondrial DNA is more readily preserved over time and say 703 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: fossil remains and animal remains than DNA from the nucleus 704 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: of cells, and they concluded that all lineages of dogs 705 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: that accompanied the first human settlers into North America shared 706 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: a common ancestor that was indicated by a genetic marker 707 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: called A to B, and the researchers believe these dogs 708 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: to have descended from this common ancestor population that were 709 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: these domesticated or semi domesticated dogs born in the company 710 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: of humans in North Siberia about twenty three thousand years ago. 711 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: Now imagining the sort of setting of this ancestral population 712 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: of of wolves turning into dogs and the humans that 713 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: we're creating them. Uh, the setting here is is something 714 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: like twenty three to thirty one thousand years ago in 715 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: this area of northeastern Siberia that Grim Rights was apparently 716 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: relatively temperate compared to the areas all around it, and 717 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: it was that way for thousands of years. So you 718 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,919 Speaker 1: have to imagine a place that during a an ice 719 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 1: age is surrounded on the east and the west by 720 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: regions that are probably too cold and barren to sustain 721 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: the lifestyle of of these human hunter gatherers, and so 722 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: basically they would have been isolated in these hunting grounds 723 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,319 Speaker 1: in northeastern Siberia that it was kind of an oasis 724 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,760 Speaker 1: in which they could live. And there were also populations 725 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: of wolves occupying this relative oasis in in the last 726 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: glacial period along with these human hunters. Now we'll come 727 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,919 Speaker 1: back to that oasis concept in a minute, but first 728 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: I wanted to mention that we're not sure how exactly 729 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: the domestication of dogs happened. You know, you want to 730 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: be careful not to put too much confidence in people 731 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: trying to tell a plausible story that could explain things, 732 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: because we don't know for sure. But there's a common 733 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: hypothesis on the domestication process leading from the wolf to 734 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: the domestic dog that seems pretty plausible, and it goes 735 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: like this. So you have humans who are hunting and 736 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: gathering food and maybe making these large mega fauna kills. 737 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: You know, they're killing a wooly mammoth or a bison 738 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: or something and roasting meat over the fire at campsites, 739 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: and wild wolves are obviously drawn to the smell of 740 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,959 Speaker 1: the food that humans have harvested. And then from here 741 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: it's possible that a selection process kicks in and it 742 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: would go something like this. Wolves that are too skittish 743 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: around humans, they just don't you know, they keep their distance. 744 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: You know, they don't want anything to do with humans. 745 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 1: Humans are too scary, uh, they stay back. Obviously, any 746 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: wolves that were too aggressive or violent about approaching humans 747 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: would react with with violence, and probably those wolves would 748 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: be killed. But wolves that happen to have behavioral predispositions 749 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: causing them to approach humans but not approach aggressively would 750 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: probably get to share in some of the scraps at 751 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: the human campsite. They would somehow get by their proximity 752 00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: to human encampments, get to maybe I don't know, gavenge 753 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: the remains or maybe non the bones that the humans 754 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: tossed away, or maybe even humans would deliberately share with them, 755 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: you know, who knows. And sort of imagine how that 756 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: there could be a crossover between the two, like from 757 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: toleration to perhaps active feeding over time. You know, it 758 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: is conclar that these dogs are not a threat, and hey, 759 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: maybe they're actually amusing. Maybe they're interesting to look at, uh, 760 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 1: and and everything can build up from there. Sure, and 761 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: so again, if this hypothesis is in any way correct, 762 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: these brave but docile scavengers, the dogs, the wolves who 763 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 1: would approach but wouldn't be aggressive, they would benefit from 764 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,840 Speaker 1: the extra food rewards they would get from proximity to 765 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: these human campsites, and from that extra food they would 766 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 1: have a survival advantage, and over generations there would be 767 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: these populations of wolf like creatures or proto dogs, these 768 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 1: canids who would essentially have bred themselves to become friendly 769 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: companions to humans. At some point, the human would probably 770 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 1: have found out that these proto dogs were useful for 771 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,879 Speaker 1: hunting and maybe even for friendship and so forth. So again, uh, 772 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, we don't know that this is how it happened, 773 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: but this is a commonly entertained, plausible history of what 774 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 1: could have happened here. And it's interesting that if there's 775 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: anything to this hypothesis, the process that led to the 776 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: creation of dogs was in part their ancestors willingness to 777 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 1: walk towards the fire. Yeah. Yeah, the dog that tolerates 778 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,439 Speaker 1: the heat, the light, the dog that that steps into 779 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: the glow of the fire. Yeah. That article by David 780 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: Graham and Science actually quotes one of the collaborators on 781 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: the study, and archaeologist named David Meltzer, who I believe 782 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: is on on faculty at Southern Methodist University. Uh And 783 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: and his quote is great. He says, these people were 784 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: probably sleeping on the ground in furs, roasting fresh kills 785 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 1: on the fire. If you're a hungry carnivore and you 786 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: smell a mammoth barbecue, you're going to check it out. 787 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: And so yeah, I like the idea that, you know, 788 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: maybe in the same way that cooking changed humans, something 789 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,759 Speaker 1: cooking could have possibly played a role in the attraction 790 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: of these wolf like ancestors of modern dogs. Yeah, and 791 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 1: I find it interesting to think about this and then 792 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 1: think about, you know, the end result with with mine 793 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:26,440 Speaker 1: and Aztec situation civilization. To imagine these Eurasian people's moving 794 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 1: across the world, uh over into North America and then 795 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: downward towards mes of American South America, and what did 796 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 1: they bring with them? You know, obviously they brought their 797 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: cultures and their traditions and their knowledge, but they but 798 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: they brought with them the fire, and they brought with 799 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,799 Speaker 1: them the dog. You know, a lot of the other 800 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: things they may have brought with them in the short 801 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: term would have given way to new crops that the 802 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: new plants they might discover, new animals they might discover. 803 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,239 Speaker 1: But the fire and the dog were certainly constants. Now, 804 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: one last thing I wanted to come back to with 805 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,720 Speaker 1: this study from earlier this year. There's one possible catch 806 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,839 Speaker 1: in this, this hypothetical process by which the earliest ancestors 807 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: of dogs were created. It might be kind of problematic 808 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: to imagine that nomadic humans who are moving all over 809 00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 1: the place to to follow, say their prey animals, you know, 810 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: they're the nomadic human hunters could have created these dogs 811 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,800 Speaker 1: because they would be moving and so encountering probably new 812 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,040 Speaker 1: population of wolves wherever they went, so that there might 813 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,600 Speaker 1: not be enough repeated exposure to the same populations of 814 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,919 Speaker 1: wolves to create the dogs. But one of the things 815 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: put forward in this study is that it would have 816 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 1: had this sort of oasis place in in northeastern Siberia 817 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 1: that was surrounded on all sides by more harsh environments. 818 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 1: So you would have the humans staying in a relatively 819 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 1: stable location and wolf populations staying in the same uh 820 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,319 Speaker 1: place with them, So you'd have them just interacting in 821 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,319 Speaker 1: close quarters for thousands of years at a time, and 822 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,959 Speaker 1: this could have given the opportunity to actually kick off 823 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 1: and sustain this breeding process turning wolves into dogs. Huh. Interesting. 824 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,240 Speaker 1: You know, all of this reminds me of of another 825 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: little piece that came up because in a weird way, 826 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,800 Speaker 1: it has a little bit of the of the Catholic traditions, 827 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 1: certainly has some of the Mayan traditions, but also some 828 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: of these ideas we've been discussing dealing with the hypothesis 829 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: of of of dog domestication I was reading in E. J. 830 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: Silawowski's The Encyclopedia of the Bible and Its Reception, Volume 831 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: six and M and I just want to read this 832 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,440 Speaker 1: little quote from it. Here. Morris Siegel, to demonstrate the 833 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,360 Speaker 1: fusion of Spanish, Catholic, and Mayan Indian traits in the 834 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 1: religions of Indians and modern Western Guatemala, recounts a cultured 835 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,040 Speaker 1: creation story he recorded there in nineteen forty one in 836 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: which the child God, which the author says equals Jesus 837 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 1: in this scenario, son of our virgin mother, gathered together 838 00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: the meat bones from his uncle's feast, planted them, and 839 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: built a corral around the place. In three days, all 840 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,720 Speaker 1: the animals in the world had grown from the buried bones, 841 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 1: and the uncle's jealous opened the corral and released the animals. 842 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: Yet the dog was one of the few that remained, 843 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 1: whether willingly or simply out of a failure to escape 844 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: to live with human beings. WHOA I like that because 845 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,799 Speaker 1: it again it kind of gets into an idea about 846 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 1: the dog, like the does the dog stick with us 847 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: because it is clever or because it is dumb? Because 848 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,399 Speaker 1: the dog is and I think it's ultimately neither of those. 849 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,279 Speaker 1: But you know that the idea that, like, why is 850 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,719 Speaker 1: the dog the animal that seems closest to us, that is, 851 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 1: that is man's best friend. But then also this account 852 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,440 Speaker 1: involves slaughter at a campsite, you know, it involves the 853 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: bones of the dead, So we get that connection to 854 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: this idea of the dog as the as having an 855 00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,799 Speaker 1: innate connection to the realms beyond death, but also this 856 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,719 Speaker 1: connection to human cooking. Yeah, totally. I also like the 857 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,359 Speaker 1: way that this I don't know this, something about this 858 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 1: vision of the dog makes it both the most and 859 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: least mysterious of creatures. You know, It's like the most 860 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: familiar but also has one of the most intriguing histories 861 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,480 Speaker 1: that we you know, is somewhat obscure to us. Yeah. Yeah, 862 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,640 Speaker 1: the idea that like the dog has just the dog 863 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: is there. The dog has remained there. Uh, even if 864 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 1: you don't want the dog anymore, the dog will will stay, 865 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,239 Speaker 1: which is kind of reflected in this story. To the 866 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 1: jealous uncles are like, get these animals, Get these animals 867 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,719 Speaker 1: out of here hanging out around our bones. The dog 868 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 1: doesn't go. The dog is here to stay. But I 869 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,400 Speaker 1: have to say, I do really like this idea of 870 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,000 Speaker 1: the dog is the firebringer and the dog and dog 871 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,960 Speaker 1: is the dog carrying the fire for humanity, lighting the 872 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,040 Speaker 1: way for us into the dark. Because this does seem 873 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: to just it, it's kind of lines up with a 874 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,719 Speaker 1: lot of the the attributes that we we recognize in 875 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: our relationships with our pets. Know, I mean, particularly with 876 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,400 Speaker 1: the dog. You know this, this is our buddy, This 877 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,440 Speaker 1: is he's a guide, He's a guardian and and perhaps 878 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:13,399 Speaker 1: has esoteric knowledge of the great beyond. All dogs are wizards. Yeah, yeah, 879 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: And so the next time you're you're making eye contact 880 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 1: with your dog, just remember this animal knows the way 881 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,040 Speaker 1: to Micklin. Now, obviously we'd love to hear from everyone 882 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,759 Speaker 1: out there, especially dog owners. I'm sure you have some 883 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,919 Speaker 1: thoughts on all of this. I do want to drive 884 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,000 Speaker 1: home the Please do not try and give your dog 885 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 1: anything on fire because of anything you heard in this episode. 886 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: We're certain your dog doesn't want any part of the fire, 887 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,759 Speaker 1: and only disaster can occur if you try to recreate 888 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:48,480 Speaker 1: these artistic and mythic images um using an actual canine. Yes, children, 889 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,160 Speaker 1: do not try to recreate an active dog py romancy 890 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,000 Speaker 1: you heard about on this podcast. However, I will just 891 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: throw this out there. If you want to get a 892 00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,560 Speaker 1: dog toy that looks like a torch or a flame brand, 893 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:02,879 Speaker 1: they do exist, you can, but you can find them. 894 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,520 Speaker 1: I'm looking at a couple of varieties of these right now. 895 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,239 Speaker 1: So if you are inspired by this podcast and you 896 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 1: want pictures of your dog holding a flaming brand, uh, 897 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 1: you know, bringing some sort of vision to humanity. Uh yeah, 898 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,520 Speaker 1: just go spend nine to seventeen dollars and get yourself 899 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,240 Speaker 1: a chew toy torch. Are these are these two toys 900 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,720 Speaker 1: merch created by the Dominicans. Um, I know van gift shop. 901 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 1: Let's see. I see one that is labeled as Frisco 902 00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:35,040 Speaker 1: Mythical Mates of Viking torch plus Squeaking dog toy. It 903 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,560 Speaker 1: sounds lovely and it's available for like Okay, I don't 904 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,560 Speaker 1: know why it's a Viking thing. Like the Vikings didn't 905 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,279 Speaker 1: come up in this podcast at all. It needs to 906 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,920 Speaker 1: be connected to the Mayans or to uh to to Catholics. 907 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,960 Speaker 1: Needs to be a Frisco Mythical Mates Catholic torch plus 908 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,000 Speaker 1: squeaking dog toy or something. All right, we're gonna go 909 00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,080 Speaker 1: and close this one. Out, but yeah, certainly right in 910 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,000 Speaker 1: let us know. Tell us about your dog and if 911 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:03,960 Speaker 1: you have a dog that has one of these, uh, 912 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 1: these two toys, yes, I would like to see a 913 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,320 Speaker 1: picture of the two together. In the meantime, if you 914 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:10,839 Speaker 1: want to listen to other episodes of Stuff to Blow 915 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,680 Speaker 1: Your Mind, just check out the Stuff to Blow Your 916 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,480 Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed. You can find that wherever you get 917 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:19,320 Speaker 1: your podcasts. We have core episodes publishing Tuesdays and Thursdays. 918 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: We have a listener mail on Monday, we have an 919 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 1: artifact on Wednesday, and we have a Weird House CINAM 920 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,000 Speaker 1: on Friday. That's our time to just talk about a 921 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,840 Speaker 1: weird movie and set the science mostly aside for the 922 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:30,640 Speaker 1: time being now and then we have a rerun on 923 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 1: the weekends. Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio 924 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,799 Speaker 1: producers Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get 925 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,040 Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or 926 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,120 Speaker 1: any other, to suggest a topic for the future, or 927 00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,839 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 928 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:54,040 Speaker 1: that Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcam. Stuff to Blow 929 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,640 Speaker 1: Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more 930 00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 1: podcasts for my Heart Radio, this is the i Heart 931 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,360 Speaker 1: Radio app Apple pod tests, or wherever you're listening to 932 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:13,360 Speaker 1: your favorite shows. F