1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: For most of my family members. Holding onto our land 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: in Gilmour, Texas was simply more trouble than it was worth. 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: What started with eighty acres of potential farmland or property 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: to extract resources from, turned into a liability over time, 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: Why taxes. My name is plus Maurice Montgomery, the third. 6 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: You might remember Plas from episode one. He's a computer 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: technician by trade and lives in Dallas. He came into 8 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: about two acres in much the same way my dad did. 9 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: It was passed down to him from my great great 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: aunt and uncle. The Broodics Pleas, more than any relative 11 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: I spoke to, has tried to make something of our 12 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: family's land. He leased the trees on it to a 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: timber company, he sold oil rights. He even toyed with 14 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: the idea of turning it into a farm. But as 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: time went by, he decided to give up on the land. Basically, 16 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: what I decided to do, or what I wanted to do, 17 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: was to simply sell the land so that it was 18 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: no longer a liability on me or my family. The 19 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: problem was his tax bills kept going up. When I 20 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: first started following this, I'd get tax statements every year 21 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: from ups your county. The the whole thing would come 22 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: out to maybe undred two thousand dollars, okay, two thousand 23 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: dollars a year, yes, And then suddenly the tax statements 24 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: I would get they started to increase exponentially. The last 25 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: statement I remember was right around and when when when 26 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: this this this increase took place. It went up to 27 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars, and then I noticed so I increases 28 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: over the next few years. And then in two thousand 29 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: five or so, the statement I got indicated almost a 30 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: twenty dollar tax liability and it continued to rise from 31 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: there over the years. Plus its tax liability gained as 32 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: he fell behind on payments. It's also made it hard 33 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: for him to find a buyer who would take on 34 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: those unpaid taxes. In a wide ranging interview, the mayor 35 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: of Gilmour, Tim Marshall described the essential role of property 36 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: taxes and funding local projects. I think what people are 37 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: expecting are they're expecting their infrastructure to be maintained, and 38 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,959 Speaker 1: people don't understand. Sometimes it's the infrastructure, even though a 39 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: little small town like this is the sewer, water, streets 40 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: in different things like that, the police department, the fire department. 41 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: There's a lot of inner workings within the city, and 42 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: the value of your land typically most people around, has 43 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: gone down a little bit. So by raising your taxes 44 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: a little bit the right we generate the same amount 45 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: of money. No one disputes the need of a county 46 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: or district to raise funds for schools and roads. But 47 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: for many Black Americans, like Pleas, high tax bills have 48 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: also become the greatest burden on land ownership, and in 49 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: thousands of US counties, something more is happening. Black Americans 50 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: are experiencing unfairly high taxes. In today's episode, we'll take 51 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: you to one of those places. How the statistics are 52 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: other cruel. The gap between the average income for Negroes 53 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: in this country and the average income for lights has 54 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: not clued. Do you think a Negro family and moving 55 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: here will affect the community as a whole? I think that, well, 56 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: the property utters will immediately go down if they are 57 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,119 Speaker 1: allowed to move in here on any number. So much 58 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: bitterness built up in a person and resentment when you 59 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: know that you're being segregated again simply because you're black. OK. 60 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: At the bottom of the economic letter, the bottom of 61 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: the housing letter, the bottom of the educational letters. We 62 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: have lived. I'm leaving town on Andition for how many years? 63 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: Before hundred years? I was prepared to try to get 64 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: used to having a colored family on the block. Now 65 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: there's another one across the street. You pretty soon they'll 66 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: be one next door, and before you know what, those 67 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: streets are gonna start looking like Harlo Well. I don't 68 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: want to live in a colored slum. I don't want 69 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: to live in a colored slum? Is that terrible? Welcome 70 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: back to the paycheck. I'm Rebecca Greenfield and I'm Jackie Simmons. 71 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: In the US, owning property has been a major driver 72 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,799 Speaker 1: of wealth creation. Last week, we talked about land ownership 73 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: and how black farmland in particular has been chipped away 74 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: over the years. This week, we're turning our attention to 75 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: the heart of the American dream, owning a home. As 76 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: we talked about previously, race and racism has a lot 77 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: to do with who historically has had access to the 78 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: US housing market, and we see those legacies play out 79 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: in the stats today. Nearly three quarters of white families 80 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: own homes, while less than half of black families do. 81 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: This has how white people build wealth in all sorts 82 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: of ways. What's even more troubling is that these disparities 83 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: aren't getting any better. In Black home ownership rates had 84 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: a record low since at least ninety There are lots 85 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: of reasons for that, but at least some of it 86 00:05:55,279 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: has to do with taxes. A new Bloomberg Business investigation 87 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: uncovers how an unfair taxation system is hitting black homeowners hardest. 88 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: Jason Grotto has the story, I want to take you 89 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: on a journey of what it's like for me when 90 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: I have to pay my rent every month. I don't 91 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: It's the last weekend of the month. So Dilicias Scott 92 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: is on her way to the post office. Ah, can 93 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: I have a money order? I need a money order? 94 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: Where is it going to for a payment? From there, 95 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: she drives north on the freeway, just past Detroit's city 96 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: limit to hand deliver her rent to a drab office 97 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: building Noble for Era. So if I drop it off myself, 98 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: driving here, I know a gay here, I see that 99 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: it went into the building, so no one can say, well, 100 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: we didn't get her payment. This monthly ritual leaves her 101 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: feeling angry and frustrated. That's because this isn't just any 102 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: house she's renting. She's been running a home that for 103 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: years she used to own. It's not just a rental property. 104 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: This is my home right. I raised my children in 105 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: this space, my one thought since he was two years old, 106 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: my other six kids five or six. We did things 107 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: in a home that you can't take out. I can 108 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: pack up my tangible stuff, but I can't pack my memories. 109 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: Despite the trouble it's caused her, Dilicia clings fiercely to 110 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: the two story tutor where she's lived with her three 111 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: children for sixteen years. The landlord refuses to give her 112 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: a lease or fix the collapsing back porch, and when 113 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: it rains well, she needs three buck gets upstairs to 114 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: catch water from the leaky roof. You can tell, brain, 115 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: and you can tell how hard you cant will pour 116 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: in in the drift. So like if I'm sleeping in 117 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: the middle of the night and it's start the storm, 118 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: and it's right in real hard, the drifts wants like 119 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: a bucket. The story of how Dilicia lost her home 120 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: is tied up in an injustice that has gone on 121 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: for years and touches nearly every community in the country. 122 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: It's a problem that has contributed to the racial wealth 123 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: gap by saddling lower income, mostly black communities with burdens 124 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,479 Speaker 1: that wealthier and wider ones avoid. It's a systematic injustice 125 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: that lurks in the most mundane of manners, municipal property taxes. 126 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: Dilicia lost her home in two thousand fourteen because she 127 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: fell three years behind on her party taxes. She got 128 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: laid off from her job at a domestic violence shelter 129 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: during the Great Recession. Then her partner, the father of 130 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: her kids, left, drastically reducing the family's monthly income. It 131 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: took her two years to find a job at a 132 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: new shelter. By then, the fees and fines from missing 133 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: payments compounded the money she already owed, leaving her stuck 134 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: in a crushing cycle. I fell into depression. There was 135 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: days where I didn't even realize that my kids had 136 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: to go to school, Like I just couldnt get out 137 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: of the bed. My mental capacity just wasn't there to 138 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: recoup the unpaid taxes. Wayne County, Michigan, foreclosed on her home, 139 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: which she had purchased in two thousand and five for 140 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: sixty three eight hundred dollars. Then the county auctioned it 141 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: off in November two thousand fourteen, and a Utah based 142 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: investment company snapped it up for just forty dollars. Since then, 143 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: the house is old two more times two different investors. 144 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: The last sale in February fetched eighty four thousand dollars, 145 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: eighteen times the price paid six years earlier. Dilysia meanwhile 146 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: lost her entire investment. In fact, she pays more now 147 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: in rent than she did when she had a mortgage. 148 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: But here's the catch. She never should have lost her 149 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: home because their tax bill should never have been that 150 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: high in the first place. For years, Detroit city officials 151 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: used wildly and accurate valuations of the house to calculate 152 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: Dilysia's property tax bills, artificially inflating them by about fifty 153 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: eight hundred dollars more than she should have paid, according 154 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: to a Bloomberg analysis of her tax records. Once she 155 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: fell behind, late fees and other penalties made it even 156 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: harder to catch up. After missing two more bill, she 157 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: was nearly ten thousand dollars in the whole Hers was 158 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: among tens of thousands of homes in Detroit's lower income 159 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: black neighborhoods That city officials routinely overvalued for tax purposes. Meanwhile, 160 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: homes and affluent areas were systematically undervalued, reducing the taxes 161 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: those homeowners paid. Detroit officials have admitted they over taxed 162 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: about a hundred and thirty thousand people between two thousand 163 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: and ten and two thousand and thirteen, but they say 164 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: that now, while mistakes do happen, the system overall is fair. 165 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: That assessment is disputed by Christopher Barry, who first uncovered 166 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: these inequities. A public policy professor at the University of Chicago, 167 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: Chris has been studying property tax systems for years. I 168 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: met him while working as a reporter in Chicago, where 169 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: he started documenting unfair assessments. He didn't realize that at 170 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: the time, but he was about to embark on years 171 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: research uncovering the fundamental unfairness of property taxes. I had 172 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: kind of been thinking of this as one of these 173 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: only in Chicago sort of phenomena, and there's just so 174 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: many things like this that you get used to if 175 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: your person that lives here in Chicago. But as that 176 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: Chicago work began to do to get attention, I started 177 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: to hear from people elsewhere, and first it was you 178 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: know some activists in Detroit who said, hey, you know, 179 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: we read about what's going on in Chicago and the 180 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: work you did there. We're having the same issues here. 181 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: You should take a look. And then it was you know, 182 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: a lawyer in New York says, we've got a lawsuit 183 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: going on similar issues here. And then as a reporter 184 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: in St. Louis, you know, every place I look, I'm 185 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: finding something similar. You know, the names changed, some of 186 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: the details are different, but the overall pattern of unfairness 187 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: and equity is just repeated place after place. Chris found 188 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,359 Speaker 1: that in cities and towns across the US, local officials 189 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: have systematically overvalued the lowest priced homes relative to the highest, 190 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: creating higher effective tax rates for those who can least 191 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: afford to pay. From two thousand and six through two 192 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: thousand sixteen, inaccurate valuations gave the least expensive homes in 193 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: Baltimore an effective tax rate that was more than two 194 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 1: times higher than the most expensive in New York City. 195 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: It was three times higher in St. Louis, almost four 196 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: In theory, these taxes should be completely fair. Property taxes 197 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: are what's known as ad valorum Latin for according to value. 198 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: Every property in a given place is supposed to be 199 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: taxed at the same effective rate. What determines that rate 200 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: is the value of the property, and that's where things 201 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: go wrong. Chris found the nature of the problem is 202 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: that people that own lower priced homes are systematically having 203 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: their homes valued at more than their worth, while people 204 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: at the top are systematically having their homes valued at 205 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: less than their worth. And when the values are not right, 206 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: and the values are unequal, then the taxes which are 207 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: just comp huteed based on those values are also going 208 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: to be unequal. Chris found the property tax is deeply 209 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: unfair because it's regressive. That means the burden of the 210 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: tax falls heavier on lower income people. It's the opposite 211 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: of progressive taxes such as the federal income tax, which 212 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: applies higher rates to people with higher incomes. And that's 213 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: a big deal because Americans pay more than five hundred 214 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: billion dollars a year in property taxes. That pays for 215 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: public safety, schools, sanitation, and all the other services cities 216 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: and towns provide. This as a matter of equity and 217 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: our our values as a society. There are lots of 218 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: reasons why people may argue about progressive taxation. I mean, 219 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: should should the rich pay more? But there's really nobody 220 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: who's making a normative argument in favor of regressive taxation, 221 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: right that as a matter of principle, we should have 222 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: the poor pay more. This isn't happening in a vacu. 223 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: The disparities hurt Black communities disproportionately because the legacy of 224 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: racial discrimination has left those communities with a larger share 225 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: of lower priced homes. The median home value in black 226 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: census tracks is nearly half of what it is in 227 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: majority white and Hispanic ones, according to a Bloomberg analysis. 228 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: So the way that shakes out is black homeowners end 229 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: up paying more in property taxes relative to their market 230 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: value than white ones. This is just a textbook example 231 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: of institutional racism or systemic racism, or whatever you'd like 232 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: to label it. And what I mean by that is, 233 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: I don't think there's anybody in the assessor's office who's 234 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: sitting there and explicitly saying, hey, let's go in the 235 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: black neighborhoods and you know, jack up their assessments, and 236 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: then let's go into the white neighborhoods and make them 237 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: lower up but nevertheless, the outcomes that we see from 238 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: the system are racially disproportionate, and that's the very definition 239 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: of sort of institutional racism. But of course, these kinds 240 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: of disparities are rooted in a history of racial discrimination 241 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: that is explicit, and it's impossible to understand why this 242 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: taxation disproportionately affects black communities without talking about the US 243 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: legacy of housing segregation. I sat down with Bretton Mock 244 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: of Bloomberg City Lab. He's been covering this for a while. Hey, Breton, 245 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: thanks for joining us. Yeah, thanks for having me on. 246 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: I'm excited to dig into this. Yeah. Well, it all 247 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: starts with home ownership, which is one of the primary 248 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: ways that many Americans accumulated wealth in the twentieth century. 249 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: But it's one that white families have been able to 250 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: capitalize on in ways that black families have not. And 251 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: this runs so much deep for than property taxes, right, 252 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: I mean, the history here helps explain why Black Americans 253 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: are the ones with lower valued homes to begin with. Yeah, 254 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: and here's the irony. You talked about homes being overvalued 255 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: when it comes to setting the property tax rate. Well, 256 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: many of those same homes are being undervalued by a 257 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: different set of appraisers when it comes to deciding what 258 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: they're worth on the market. Because of racial segregation, properties 259 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: and majority black communities have historically been appraised at much 260 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: lower values and sold at lower prices than similar properties 261 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: and majority white neighborhoods. That kind of price coding has 262 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: pretty much been cemented in the housing market thanks to 263 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: the practice of redlining. Redlining Katerina talked about that in 264 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: episode two. How does that fit into our story? Yeah, 265 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: Like Katerina explained, redlining was a government sanctioned program for 266 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: deciding that entire neighborhoods would be considered risky by giving 267 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: them a grade between A and D. Black neighborhoods were 268 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: routinely graded D and literally shaded and read on real 269 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: estate maps in just about every city in the US. 270 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: This practice pretty much ensured that very few people in 271 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: black neighborhoods would be able to purchase houses or even 272 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: get loans to improve homes that were already purchased. But 273 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: those laws have been reformed now have fair housing laws 274 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: at least begun to reduce the gap between white and 275 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: black home appraisals. Well, that's the crazy part. Yes. Starting 276 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: in nine eight with the Fair Housing Act, these particular 277 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: practices were banned. But actually, recent research has found that 278 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: the gap between appraisal values of black and white homes 279 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: has widened. The gap is being exacerbated because the praisers 280 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: currently decide to homes value by looking at the selling 281 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: prices of surrounding homes without any kind of correction. That 282 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: history of low values has just compounded over time. But 283 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: what does that disparity mean in economic terms? So I 284 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: spoke with Andre Perry at the Brookings Institution to help 285 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: put this into context. I worked with him on a 286 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: book several years ago about undervalued black properties. Since then, 287 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: he's done a study to quantify differences in black home values. 288 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: He explained how, after controlling for all housing and neighborhood factors, 289 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: homes and black neighborhoods were under priced in appraisals compared 290 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: to white neighborhoods. By here's Andre, accumulatively, that's about a 291 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: hundred billion in lost equity. And that's just in alone. 292 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: I always put it in in um perspective. Um, the 293 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: hundred fifty six billion would have financed more than four 294 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: point four million black owned businesses based on the average 295 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: amount Blacks used to start up their firms, they would 296 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: have paid for more than eight million UM college degrees 297 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: based on the average amount of a public education. Now, 298 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: this is money that is really robbing people of the 299 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 1: opportunity to lift themselves up. And remember where we started 300 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: this conversation, the racial wealth gap. These differences matter because 301 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: home massets are supposed to appreciate as they are passed 302 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: down through generations. As Andre puts it, wealth begets wealth. 303 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: So if you are able to own a home, if 304 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: your grandfather was able to own a home and they 305 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 1: and here's he had children, he could pass on the 306 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: equity gained from that house to the child, or UM 307 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: you can apply it to um the college education, you 308 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: can use it to start a business. Remember most people 309 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: start their their business using the equity in their home. 310 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: So UM, if you did not have if your grandfather 311 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: great grandfather could not own a home, it's it's less 312 00:20:52,400 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: likely you're going to be able to have wealth. Dilicia 313 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: is acutely aware of this relationship between home ownership and wealth. 314 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: It's why she's so doggedly committed to buying her home back, 315 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: despite the perversity of the costs she has already borne. 316 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: Like so many other parents, She's concerned about leaving her 317 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: three kids an asset that will give them a leg 318 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: up because she believes they'll be better off in the 319 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: long run. For her, the house could be a source 320 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: of foundational wealth. You know, I just want to leave 321 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: them more than a couple of insurance policy. And that's 322 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: that's the only thing. A couple of insurance policy and 323 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: a ragny car. That's the only thing I have to 324 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: offer them right now. And that's not fear for them. 325 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: And I have to think about my mortality. I have 326 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: to think about a plan. What is going to happen 327 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: to them? Um, I don't want them even if if 328 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: if I'm a going to buy this house, I don't 329 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: want them to have to live there for the rest 330 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: of them their lives. Like but I want them to 331 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: have an asset right. Dilicia lost the home after was 332 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: overvalued by a property tax assessor. Even though many of 333 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: the same homes get undervalued when it comes to appraising 334 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: their market price, how does that happen? To understand that, 335 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: you need to get an idea for how local tax 336 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: officials determine the value of homes. Unlike appraisers assessors aren't 337 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: able to visit every home in the city. Instead, they 338 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: look at the prices of homes that have sold within 339 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: the last year or so. They then use computer models 340 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: to estimate the value for all the homes in the area. 341 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: But those computer models are only as good as the 342 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: data going into them. It turns out there are some 343 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: significant gaps in the data, and those gaps lead to 344 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: some pretty serious errors that cause unfair assessments to creep in, 345 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: especially for people in lower valued homes. Chris explains, I 346 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: often try to explain this to people by imagining that 347 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: we did income taxes the same way we did property taxes. 348 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: So imagine that the i r S each year only 349 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: got a W two for about one percent of the population. 350 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: So for one percent of the people, the i r 351 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,719 Speaker 1: S actually knows what your income was, and for the 352 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: other people they have to guess. They have to guess 353 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: what your income is. And as a taxpayer, you don't 354 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: file taxes. You just get a letter from the hares 355 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: each year saying, hey, we guessed that you made a 356 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars last year. Here's your tax bill. That's 357 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: how we do property taxes. And if we did income 358 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: that way. I think it would be pretty obvious to 359 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 1: people the ways in which that would be sort of 360 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: incorrect and unfair. Just to build on the professor's analogy, 361 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: local property tax officials do a bit more than just 362 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: flat out guessing. They try to compare similar homes. Say 363 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: a four bedroom, two bathroom branch sells for two dollars. 364 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: Local officials will use that information to help guide how 365 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: they assess the value of other four bedroom to bathroom 366 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: ranch houses in the same area or neighborhood. If the 367 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: i R S used that same method to set income taxes, 368 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: the resulting unfairness becomes pretty clear. Suppose they knew nothing 369 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: about you at all. The best they could guess is 370 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: that you were making the average income. They'd say, we 371 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: think you made the average income last year. Pay taxes 372 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: on the average income. Well, that's really bad for people 373 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: who earned below the average, because they're being treated as 374 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: if they earned more than they did, and they're paying 375 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: taxes that are too high. But it's a great deal 376 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: for people who were above average, because they're being told 377 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: they were average and they're paying taxes that are too low. 378 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: And so you can already see the inequity that's built 379 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: in this kind of averaging. That's what would happen if 380 00:24:54,880 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: they had no data about you at all. Even with 381 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: a little more data, the method that local officials used 382 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: to set property values just isn't robust enough to capture 383 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: important differences in market values among different homes for people 384 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: like Delicia, those flaws can be disastrous. In fact, in 385 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: places like Detroit, they just don't keep black families from 386 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: acquiring and passing down wealth, they contribute to the actual 387 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: destruction of it. One of the things we know about 388 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: that the whole property tax process is that when people 389 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: can't pay, they are subject of various kinds of sanctions 390 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: by the state. And so you may have had your 391 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: home systematically over tax overcharged too much, and then if 392 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: you can't pay those unfair taxes, you might lose your 393 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: home due to a tax foreclosure, or you might have 394 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: your home sold from out from under YouTube some kind 395 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: of investment firm that that is going around buying up 396 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: these low value at homes. And you know, there's nowhere 397 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: in the country where this has been a bigger problem 398 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: than Detroit, where fully one quarter of all home in 399 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: Detroit have been foreclosed on for failure to pay taxes. 400 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about any mortgage foreclosure here, but in 401 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: fact a tax foreclosure. In fact, Detroit officials have admitted 402 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: they over taxed tens of thousands of people. Yet the 403 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: property tax system is so complicated that Dilicia didn't find 404 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: out about being overtaxed until she read about Chris's work 405 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: in her local newspaper in February two thowy six years 406 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: after she lost her home. Soon after, she reached out 407 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: to him, but by that point there was nothing she 408 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: could do about it. It's embarrassing right there. I feel 409 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: like there is no safe place for me to hand 410 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: this conversation because I'm going to get a judge one 411 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: way or another. Uh, you know, it's it's a lot. 412 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: I feel betrayed too. Yeah, I feel left behind. I 413 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: feel left behind. And then and then well, last year, 414 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: to learn that I was overtaxed why five thousand. It 415 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: makes me sad, It makes me depress, It makes me 416 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: feel like a failure. And that's another consequence of broken 417 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: tax systems. People like Dilicia are forced to process and 418 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: struggle with the shame of it all, even though what's 419 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: happened isn't her fault because she was treated unfairly. In fact, 420 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: Dilicia is so ashamed that six years on she still 421 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: hadn't told her children that she had lost the home. 422 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna eventually have to have that conversation. I don't 423 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: know how, UM, but I figure I have to get 424 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: myself a time frame because I don't know. UM is 425 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: very scary right now, not being on the least um. 426 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: But I have to have a plan for them, Like 427 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: I just can't just say like, oh, this is it 428 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: and okay, see you guys later. They don't deserve this. 429 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: My daughter actually she looked it up and she said, huh, 430 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: I was on this site. This is a couple of 431 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: months ago, and I was on this site, and it's 432 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: that our house was stolen in February. And that's it. Girl, 433 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about. Since Detroit officials 434 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: admitted to pass problems, they say they fixed the system 435 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: and that now it's fair. Yet Chris is found that 436 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: property taxes in Detroit continue to be really regressive still. 437 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: Alvin Horne, the city's top assessment official, has come out 438 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: against Chris's findings. Here. He is at a recent press 439 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: conference evaluation, and a very smart person once told me this, 440 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: there's an art, not a science. You have the facts, 441 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: but you also have to understand the market Detroit as 442 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: a unique market, and you can't. You can't get those 443 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: nuances simply from a sales study. You have to live 444 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: here and you have to understand what's going on here 445 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: to understand valuation. At that same press conference, he and 446 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan criticized Chris for refusing to share 447 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: the data underlying the study, but later, in an interview 448 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: with me, the top possessor admitted he had seen the data, 449 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: saying that on average, Detroit system is fair, while acknowledging 450 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: that mistakes can still happen. The data say otherwise. In fact, 451 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: I replicated parts of Chris's analysis and found the same thing, 452 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: Detroit system remains deeply unfair. Despite everything she's been through, 453 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: Dilicia still holds onto the hope that she can buy 454 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: back her home. To try to save for a down payment, 455 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: she took on a second job in October, delivering food 456 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: via door dash. Usually, what what happens a typical day 457 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: for me during a week is, um I go to work, 458 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: like when I work on site, I'll go to work. 459 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: Then straight from work, I get in my car, I 460 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: turned my dash app and I started dashing to probably 461 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: about ten eleven o'clock at night. Then I do it 462 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: again on the weekend. Sometimes when she's out delivering food 463 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: in more affluent neighborhoods, Delicia can't help but consider all 464 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: that's happened to her. I don't need fancy homes, and 465 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: they just so nice. They all lit up and beautiful 466 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: and um. Last night I went to a house and 467 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: they had like about five or six brand new cars 468 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: in the driveway. And all I think of when I 469 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: see this, like this is nice, this is real nice. 470 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: All I want is my piece of like like like, 471 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure it would be nice, but I just want 472 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: what what I've worked so hard for. Lisa's experience shows 473 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: one way the system keeps many black families off the 474 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: wealth ladder that is home ownership. For plays back in Texas, 475 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: there was never going to be a farm or profits 476 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: from oil or timber. Instead, with no buyer in sight, 477 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: he's stuck with the land and is now on the 478 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: hook for at least sixty dollars and taxes and penalties. 479 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: That's on top of as much as sixteen thousand dollars. 480 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: He says he and some family members have already paid 481 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: for the record. I dug into county documents and talked 482 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: to local officials. Indeed, his tax bill jumped between two 483 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: thousand nine and two ten, more than double, but the 484 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: county tax assessor says that overall the tax liability is 485 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: where it is because he hasn't paid taxes as they 486 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: came to Plas, is now facing foreclosure, and between his 487 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: Social Security checks and some income from a side business 488 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: fixing computers, he makes sense meet, but says sometimes he's 489 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: just living paycheck to paycheck. For the next few episodes, 490 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: we'll be looking at ways to close the racial wealth gap. 491 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: First up, a program that works, but it's highly controversial. 492 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: Without that extra step, you know, I may would have 493 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: done okay in life, but I doubt if I would 494 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: have I would have gotten a PhD by the time 495 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: I was twenty six, and I doubt if I would 496 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: have been a profess at the age. Thanks for listening 497 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: to The Paycheck. If you like the show, please rate, review, 498 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was 499 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: hosted by me Rebecca Greenfield and Me Jackie Simmons. Today's 500 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: episode was edited by Nicole Flato and Francesco Leady. It 501 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: was reported with the help of Jason Grotto and Brenton Mock. 502 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Magnus Hendrickson. We also had 503 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: production help from Lindsay Cradowell and editing help Janet Paskin, 504 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: Rock Shoto, Soluja, John Boskell, Jackie Simmons and me. Our 505 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: original music is by Leo Sidrome. Francesca Levie is Bloomberg's 506 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: head of podcasts. We'll see you next time.