WEBVTT - Federal Workers Sue Trump & Vaping Case 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.760 President Donald Trump started his second administration with the blitz 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:17.400 of executive orders on issues ranging from trade, immigration, and 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:21.840 US foreign aid to demographic diversity, civil rights, and the 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:25.880 hiring of federal workers. Some orders were challenged in federal 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.040 lawsuits before the end of his first day in office. 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:32.839 Attorneys general from twenty two states have filed suits to 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.000 block his executive order aimed at ending birthright citizenship, and 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:42.040 the National Treasury Employees Union, which represents federal government employees 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.839 and dozens of agencies, has launched a legal attack against 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:50.880 Trump's Schedule F executive order. It's a directive to reclassify 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.200 federal employees that makes it easier for his administration to 0:00:55.360 --> 0:01:00.600 fire career employees, basically reinstating the order Trump issued at 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.720 the end of his first term, which was quickly revoked 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:07.319 by President Joe Biden. Joining me is Anne Lafasso, a 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.520 professor at the University of Cincinnati Law School and a 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:14.720 former attorney at the NLRB, and will you explain what 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:16.200 Schedule F is. 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:23.520 Schedule F is a new classification of employees or sub 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:29.080 classification that will remove employees that are currently in the 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:33.520 Competitive Service into the Accepted Service. So there's three main 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:38.920 classifications of employees. They are the Competitive Service, the Accepted Service, 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.240 and the Senior Executive Service. So the Senior Executive Service 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.720 are the super politicals that's you know, like cabinet members 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.760 and the deputy to the General Council of sending the 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:51.800 General Council. Those are the ones that have absolutely no 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:57.320 job protection, and then the Competitive Service has all job protection. 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:01.720 It's almost all federal jobs. And that was put in 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.080 place over one hundred years ago by I think it 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:08.080 was President Arthur. They were trying to get rid of 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:13.160 cronyism that really started in the Andrew Jackson era to 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.360 the Victor Goes the Spoils, which was the idea of 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.080 just putting only loyalists into the government and then there'd 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.560 be a lot of corruption. And Teddy Roosevelt was really 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:24.560 involved in the Competitive Service and think this was really 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.120 important to have civil servants. I mean, obviously everyone has 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.320 their politics as citizens, but as government employees, they would 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.560 just serve whoever the administration is and they would be experts. 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:35.600 They're the ones who have to take the Civil Service 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:41.120 exam and they're the ones who are the vast majority 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.760 of employees for the federal government. The accepted service then 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.840 are just exceptions to the competitive service where it doesn't 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.760 make sense to give them this civil service exam like 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.440 all attorneys or accepted service. In other words, the presumption 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.760 is everyone in the government is competitive service unless there's 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:03.640 an reception or unless you're a political appointee. The political 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.400 appointees are very very few. They're the very top top people, 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.400 and they have no job security. They often get fired 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.440 when there's a new administration. That makes sense because they're 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:18.000 calling the shots. They're saying, we're implementing the new administration's policies. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:24.760 The schedule S is essentially a way of reclassifying these 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:30.600 competitive service employees so that they no longer have any 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:35.800 job security. Now, the administration feels that they need to 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.320 do this because it's hard to fire people, and they 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:41.480 have made a case so that they need to be 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.760 able to fire people because people are not doing their 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:48.840 job well. And the president does have power to make 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.880 changes in classifications where they're necessary for good administration. 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.840 I mean, the theory of having career employees is that 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:02.000 every time the administration changes, you don't want all the 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:07.720 workers changing that would mean no institutional memory at all, exactly. 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:11.440 So you have to have a balance between implementing policy 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:16.479 and stability of a government. And so the civil service 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:20.039 basically is running the governments and there's a few people 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:24.440 that are the boss and they're implementing policy. But you know, 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:26.640 I worked for the federal government ten years. I worked 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:28.880 five years for the Clinton administration and five years for 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.160 the Bush to administration, and my job did not change. 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.920 The only thing that changed was the type of decisions 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.720 that were coming down. And the Clinton administration they were 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.160 more pro union and in the Bush administration they were 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.520 more pro management. But I did the same exact thing. 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:46.960 My job was to enforce whatever decision came down. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:52.239 This executive order from Trump complained that accountability among federal 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:56.640 employees is currently sorely lacking. Any power they have is 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.719 delegated by the president, and they must be accountable to 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.479 the resident. What does this order actually do. 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:07.640 It makes it easier for the president, through his administrators 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:13.000 like general counsels and people like that, to fire employees. Basically, 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.039 there's about fifty thousand people that they think could be 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.000 affected by this order. I mean, there's three million little 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.200 under three million people who look for the federal government. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.479 But this is going to have large effects. It's also 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.440 possibly going to not just take away their due process rights, 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.160 but also all their union rights because a lot of 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.359 these competitive service people are actually unionized. Some of the 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:38.760 accepted services are also unionized. They're in unions. And what 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.720 this administration believes is that anything that gets in its 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.919 way of efficiently firing someone is too much. It is said, 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.880 it takes too long and it's too hard to fire people. 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:55.000 That is just not true. Managers need to manage the 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.039 way that you can fire someone. You just have to 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.480 give them due process. In fact, all of Europe that way, 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.800 all of Europe, there's no such thing as at will employment. 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:05.920 You have to give people due process if you're going 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.680 to fire them. So if you want to fire a 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.719 poor performer, and this is what Trump is mostly saying, 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.200 he's complaining about it, poor performers, then you just have 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.520 to document them and then you fire them. They get 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.080 their due process and you prove your case. Yeah, it's 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.600 different than if they're at will. You could fire them 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.359 in one day. That is true, unless your reasons for 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:30.200 firing them is unlawful under federal Estate law. But here, 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.520 what he's really doing is taking away their due process rights. Now, 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:38.279 federal law says that once an employee has due process 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:42.320 rights under the Constitution, then you can't just take them away. 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.600 So the NTU is saying that they're taking away these rights. Well, 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:48.280 you can't just take away property right. 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.080 So the National Treasury Employees Union sue Trump in DC 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:56.080 federal Court on Monday to block the Schedule F executive order. 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:00.719 They argue that it's contrary to congressional intent and violates 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.400 the Administrative Procedure Act. So explain why they say it's 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:06.200 contrary to congressional intent. 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:10.640 First, Well, Congress created this whole system in order to 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:15.840 give specifically to give job security to employees, so there 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:20.720 wouldn't be a changeover for most employees from administration administration 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:26.320 for one's ability and to combat cronyism, and so this 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:30.160 would be contrary to the whole idea of stability. So 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.320 that's I think is the most important thing that the 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:33.920 union is arguing. 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:38.560 And tell us about their claim that this order violates 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:40.320 the Administrative Procedures Act. 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:47.000 Well, the Administrative Procedures Act is the basis for making regulations, 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.880 and these are regulations that have been put in and 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:53.920 they have to be done in a certain way. And 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.720 what Trump is trying to do by executive order is 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:02.360 what is supposed to be done by m implementing regulations 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.960 through a congressional act. So an argument is he's essentially 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:12.280 usurping or commandeering the power of the legislature. Now he 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.000 says he can do this because of his powers that 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.880 Congress gave him under the Administry of the Procedures Acts, 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:23.440 and the Union saying no, you have very limited powers 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:28.080 under the Administrative Procedures Acts, and those are to create 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:32.280 accepted service in the most limited circumstances, which is pretty 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.040 much what the Act does say. But of course we 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:39.280 know that words can be interpreted different ways depending on judges, 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.440 and so they're going to litigate that. This is definitely 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:43.920 going to be litigated. I mean, it's not going to 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:44.679 be thrown out of court. 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:49.400 Trumpett enacted this Schedule F executive order at the end 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.280 of his first term, and Biden revoked it, and then 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:58.640 the Biden administration's Office of Personnel Management published a final 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.959 rule in May of twenty four to protect against this 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:07.880 kind of executive action. So is that rule an obstacle 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:12.040 in the way of Trump enforcing this executive order on 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:12.880 Schedule F. 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:16.839 So it's actually really basic constitutional law if you think about. So, 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.199 what he's saying is that one I have constitutional power 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:25.320 to do this, and two I have congressional power to 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:29.440 do this, and no regulation basically can tell me that 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.800 I can't do this. So what he's saying is that 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.120 he has this authority and they have to be accounted 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:39.760 directly to him. I think he would probably go so 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.840 far as to say that to the extent that Congress 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.040 took away that power, that it was unconstitutional. I'm going 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.440 to guess that they will make that argument. Okay, So 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.600 you see how that works is that there's a congressional act. 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:57.280 Then there are the regulations, and that's an administrative act, 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:00.520 which means this executive branch that was done through Brden 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.320 to implement these what you're allowed to do. That's all 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:07.080 administrative law. Then there's what the President is doing now, 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.520 which is executive orders. And of course the courts will 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:15.240 interpret these things. Now, remember Chevron has been overturned, which 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.480 means none of these agencies getting different. So the courts 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:23.199 are going to decide with very little input from the agencies, 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.280 what this means. I mean, yes, the agencies can say 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.439 what they think these regulations mean, and in the meantime, 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:33.040 Trump will make its own regulations based on Congress's Act. 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:38.480 But remember they have to implement what the Act says, 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:42.480 unless under two circumstances can change. One is Congress has 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.559 to change the Act to give the president more power, 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:49.079 or two the president's can have to argue that to 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:54.120 the extent that the Act is read as taking away 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.640 power to do this from the president, it's unconstitutional. 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.720 Stay with me and coming up, continue this conversation with 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:05.920 Professor Ann Lafasso of the University of Cincinnati Law School. 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:11.800 The Trump administration has ordered federal employees in DEI offices 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.720 to be placed on paid leave by Wednesday at five 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:21.480 pm as the agencies wind down diversity initiatives. I'm June 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:27.599 Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. The National Treasury Employees 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:32.160 Union launched a legal attack against President Donald Trump's Schedule 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.080 F executive order. It's a directive that makes it easier 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:41.559 for his administration to fire career employees who work across administrations. 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.560 It's the latest lawsuit seeking to block Trump's efforts to 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:49.680 cull the federal workforce. On Monday, unions and other groups 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:53.520 file complaints in federal court seeking to end the Department 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.640 of Government efficiency. I've been talking to an expert in 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.920 labor law, Professor Ann Lafasso of the Universe Have Cincinnati 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.839 Law School. It takes a while to change a regulation. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.760 Does the Trump administration have to change your regulation before 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.480 they can start, let's say, firing people. 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.760 Not according to them. First of all, they can always 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.199 fire a b ses to senior executive service, but they 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.720 want to fire more people. So what they're saying is 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:27.160 that the mere executive order does the trick and that 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:31.160 they can just do this now. Or what they're saying 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.760 is they're reclassifying people, which under the Act they're allowed 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.520 to do. Okay, so that's what they're really doing. So 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:41.320 they're just saying, we are reclassifying people right now. Then 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:45.000 what the Union is saying is the whole purpose of 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:48.600 the reclassification is so they can fire them more easily. Now. 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.520 They're not just taking that out of thin air. These 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.560 are statements by Trump that you know, if you look 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.360 at the twenty twenty executive Order that's been reinstated, it 0:12:57.440 --> 0:12:59.240 says all of this. I we read it last night. 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.520 It says all of it. So what they're saying is, 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.080 you know, listen to his words, this is what he 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:05.960 wants to do, and he said he wants to do 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.120 this also, so I don't think there's any doubt that 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:12.640 that's the fact. So then the question is is he 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:17.160 allowed to do this under these regulations and under this law, 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.280 And even if he's not, are the laws unconstitutional which 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.120 and he's allowed to do it anyway, or are the 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.360 laws somehow wrong, incorrect or not being interpreted correctly. It 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.280 is very complicated, and. 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:32.720 What's your opinion of this executive order? 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:35.600 If I were a judge, I would say, he can't 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:37.520 do this. I don't know what the courts are going 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:40.160 to do, but my guess is that he's going to 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:44.040 be cut back severely, and generally, the courts have not 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.320 surprised me. I wasn't surprised by Roe being overturned. I 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.600 wasn't surprised by a lot of things. So I'm not 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.480 a person who just always picks the progressive side, because 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.640 that's what I wish would happen. If you try to 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.120 really think through and it seems like this is a 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:02.520 step too far, but you know, you don't know. You know, 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.320 you could get as a trial judge, you'd get someone 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.440 like an alien cannon who does get overturned quite a bit. 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:11.640 You might see the President win initially, and then it 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:14.520 goes up to court appeals, and then it might go 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.520 to an no bounk even which is the full court 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.600 of appeals, and then it could go to the Supreme Court. 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:22.440 So this could take years. 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.600 If this litigation is going to go on for years, 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.240 the key then would be whether the district court would 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:33.040 grant some kind of injunction to stay the enforcement of 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.320 this while the litigation proceeds. 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.520 They may very well put in a planmary junction because 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.680 they make a really good case for harm. Now I 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:47.000 don't see a tro though a temporary restraining order, but 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.480 then again it hasn't been implemented yet. Maybe if they 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.400 try to implement it, they would. They're asking for a 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.360 full restraining order right now, so this is just the lawsuit. 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.760 So then if they do go into court for a 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.360 preliminary or temper restraining order, which is before a full 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:04.200 hearing could be made, then they have to do the 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:06.960 four factor tests and the balance of equities, and with 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.960 this would there be harm which basically which side would 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.320 have greater harm. My guess is that it would be 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:18.360 greater harm to fire all these people. Then the president 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:20.880 will make some sort of national security argument that he 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.320 has to have these people fired because it's turning the 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.680 entire government. The other side goes, they, no, the government 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.640 hasn't collapsed, and all these people are gonna be fired, 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.960 and it's gonna not only hurt these fifty thousand people, 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.880 but it's also going to hurt it's gonna have tertiary 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.200 effects on the economy. Again, if you're gonna ask me 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.280 what I thought, I would issue the temporary restraining order. 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:45.360 But again it's going to depend on the judge, and 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.320 then it will go to the DC Circuit, and then 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.960 that could go much quicker, the temporary part, and then 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:53.800 maybe that even goes to the Supreme Court, or maybe 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.600 the Screme Court denies Tergerri on that and just lets 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:58.000 whatever the DC Circuit does. 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.720 And let's turn for a moment to the Department of 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:07.120 Government Efficiency, which Trump established and is led by billionaire 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:12.400 Elon Musk to cut federal government spending. Unions have filed 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:17.040 in federal court against that department. Are the same issues 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:18.880 involved or different issues. 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:24.000 Well, I think they're overlapping issues there because that department 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.440 is trying to get rid of what they see is 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.240 a lot of government waste. And part of that, you know, 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:32.400 what's the easiest thing to get rid of if you 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.880 were a private company and this is being headed by well, 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:40.440 I think Romaswani's out of it, but it's still with 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.200 people with private enterprise experience, you know, like Elon Musk. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.480 Then the fastest thing to do always is to cut labor, 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:52.440 because you can't just cut capital meaning leases and buildings 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:54.520 and things like that right away. You know, you can't 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.160 just get rid of a government contract right away, but 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:01.200 you can get rid of employees. We can't because they're 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.680 competitive service. So you see, that's what's going on here, 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:09.119 and so that I think they are very very closely related. 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:14.720 But remember the old adage that democracy stuck except for 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.080 all the rest, the worse form of government, except for 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:20.320 all the rest. You know, we trade a little bit 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:25.119 of efficiency for freedom. Democracy means we're free. It means 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.440 that we get a say. Getting a say is definitely 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:33.159 less efficient than one person dictating what is going to happen. 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:38.440 So there is built into a democracy from inefficiency it's 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:44.120 not profit runs. And I think that the Trump administration 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:47.720 has done a great job of marketing of government employees. 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.919 There's slackers. They are not doing their jobs, and that's 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.840 like a stereotype. I worked for ten years and I'm 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.199 going to tell you I worked. I also worked till 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.560 nine o'clock at night. I worked from home, you know, 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:02.959 addition to what I was working in the office. And 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.359 I didn't see a lot of slackers. I know that 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:07.720 say I'm a godal, but that's my experience at the 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.520 National Air Relations Board. So it's not that it's just 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.040 the things take time, just like lawsuits take time, and 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:19.320 it's because we have a democracy and that's about freedom. 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.560 So the other side, I think, if they were going 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.760 to market this properly, should be talking about that this 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:32.679 is really a war on democracy. And then and Trump's 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.840 going to say, no, this is to make our democracy stronger. 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.520 That's the rhetoric that I think is going to be employed. 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:41.639 And the counter to what Trump is saying is that 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.840 it's actually a war in democracy. Democracy has built into 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.280 it a certain amount of inefficiency because you get to 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.919 hear different points of view. By the way, also, I 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.080 want to make this point when I was in the government, 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.240 and this is the true for every attorney in the government. 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:01.000 It is our job when political tells us we want X, 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:05.080 and we want it done using why means, let's say 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.640 why means is unlawful. It was my job to tell them, one, 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.399 you can't do it that way because why is unconstitutional 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:17.560 or it's unlawful or whatever it is. However, I'm looking 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.840 for solutions to still try to get you to X. So, 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:25.520 for example, one thing he could do is the long solution, 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.399 go to Congress, put a new bill in, change the 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:33.040 laws right. That takes time. I think some of the 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.200 things he's done are actually unconstitutional. I might be wrong, 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.440 but it's certainly an argument. And what I would be 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.879 telling someone is it would be my job as a 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.879 lawyer to say, hey, you can't necessarily do it this way. 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.320 It's going to take longer. In fact, I did that 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.560 at the NRB. I never thought my job was in 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:58.359 danger because I did my job and the politicals didn't 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.200 like it. I never had a problem with you. It's 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.919 not one Republican, not one Democrat, telling them what I 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.840 thought the law was and showing them my reasons, and 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.760 they could reject it. They were lawyers also if they 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.120 didn't like what I said, but it was my job 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.480 to be as honest as possible about what the law 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:18.520 was so that they don't get in trouble. So I 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.000 think that's another thing that people have to understand. It's 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:26.960 not disloyal to tell the president or his agents that 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:32.400 what they're doing is unconstitutional. It's actually loyal to protect them. 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.480 So I think that's a really important point for people 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:37.120 to understand. 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:43.560 Trump has directed that all federal employees of diversity, equity 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:49.080 and inclusion offices be placed on administrative leave with pay 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:53.200 by five pm Wednesday. This follow is an executive order 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.840 he's signed on Monday, ordering a sweeping dismantling of the 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.199 federal government's diversity and inclusion programs. 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:06.480 So what he's doing is he's limiting the damages because 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.159 if you put them on paid leave, then they're not 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.560 being injured. Well, they're being injured psychologically, but they're not 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:19.320 being injured monetarily, So it's terribly inefficient. Well, I guess 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.359 he doesn't see it as inefficient because he doesn't believe 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:24.359 in DEI, so there's no job to perform. So what 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:27.920 he's essentially saying is these jobs no longer really exist. 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:30.520 But to be on the safe side, we're going to 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:34.000 give them paid leaves, and that would only be a 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.240 monetary loss if they're forced to take their own annual leave. 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:40.760 So he's just giving extra leave to them, because each 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:43.320 of them is entitled to a payout of their annual 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.600 leave when they leave if they separate from service, not 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:50.520 their sick leaves, but they are entitled to their annual leave, 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:53.600 and you can you can accumulate that. At least when 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:55.760 I was there, you were able to accumulate that. And definitely, 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:57.720 so if you have a year's worth of annual leave, 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:00.000 then they would owe them a year's worth of staff. 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:03.520 So if you have two weeks, you get two weeks 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:07.439 of salaries. So if he's just giving them leave right now, additionally, 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:08.760 there's no harm to them. 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.040 But what about the firing. Is he allowed to fire? 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:14.680 If he's doing away with DEI completely. 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.160 That would have to be litigated. Let's just say let's 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.000 do it a little less controversially. Okay, let's say there 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:22.440 really is something that's redundant, like we don't need this 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:27.479 anymore because we don't need people who run copy machine. 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.920 You remember back in the seventies. How you like xerox things. Okay, 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.320 we don't do that anymore, and we can't find new 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:37.040 positions for them. You can make a position redundant, so 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:40.159 that's easy. The question would be that would be litigated. 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:43.879 Is allowed to just say we don't need any of 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:46.120 these people. Oh and by the way, we can't find 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:49.320 jobs for them anywhere, So that's going to have to 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:53.119 be litigated, and his position will be that these jobs 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:57.200 no longer exist, and then that's a finding of fact 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:01.119 and law that some judge is going to have to decide. 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:05.040 I see so much litigation ahead for so many of 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:08.199 these executive orders. We'll have to see how the courts 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.680 respond to them. Thanks so much, Anne. That's professor Ann 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:15.560 Lafasso of the University of Cincinnati Law School. Coming up 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:19.200 next on the Bloomberg Law Show. The Supreme Court justices 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:23.480 seem skeptical of the government's arguments that it should curb 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:27.680 where e cigarette manufacturers can sue in order to cut 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:31.520 back on form shopping. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening 0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:36.359 to Bloomberg. A case at the Supreme Court about the 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:40.920 proper place to sue the federal government highlights how far right. 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:45.440 The nation's most conservative appeals court has shifted with opinions 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:48.800 that the Supreme Court has increasingly had to push back on. 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:52.480 It's one of thirteen cases this term out of the 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.920 US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. That's more 0:23:55.960 --> 0:24:00.159 than twenty percent of the Supreme Court's current workload. The 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:03.080 statute at the heart of the oral arguments on Tuesday 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:07.000 limits where tobacco companies can challenge the Food and Drug 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:11.719