1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: I think people treat dating like shopping. I want this. 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to go find this. You don't choose a 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: partner a la carte. How do I feel with this person? 4 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: That is the most important question you can ask. And 5 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: if you enjoy their company, you feel heard, you feel understood. 6 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: All the rest is just nice. 7 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 2: A psychotherapist and New York Times best selling author. 8 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Glori Laurie Gottlieb A lot of times relational issues or 9 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: childhood issues in disguise. 10 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're spot on. 11 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: Many problems are so fixable. You can heal a lot 12 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: of things to have more of a relationship than you 13 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:32,959 Speaker 1: ever thought possible. 14 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite 15 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 2: you to join this community to hear more interviews that 16 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 2: will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All 17 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. 18 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 2: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your 19 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to 20 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 2: go on this journey with you. Thank you so much 21 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 2: for subscribing. It means the world to me. The best 22 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: selling author on the host the number one Healthy Well inness. 23 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: Podcast On Purpose with Jason Jenny. 24 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one 25 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every 26 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 2: one of you that come back every week to become 27 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: a happier, healthier and more healed. I'm so grateful that 28 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: you lend me your ears every day, some of you 29 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: multiple times per day or multiple times per week, to 30 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: dive into conversations to help you grow, to help you 31 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: become the person that you want to be, and connect 32 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 2: with your authentic self. Today's guest is someone who's been 33 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: on the show before and you loved the episode, so 34 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 2: we had to bring her back. I'm speaking about the 35 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 2: one and only Lori Gottlieb, a psychotherapist and New York 36 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: Times best selling author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, 37 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: which has sold nearly two million copies and is currently 38 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: being adapted as a television series. In addition to Laurie's 39 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 2: clinical practice, Laurie is co host of the popular Dear 40 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 2: Therapist podcast, and she writes the Atlantics Dear Therapist advice column. 41 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 2: Check those out if you haven't already. Laurie's the creator 42 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 2: of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone's Workbook, a toolkit 43 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: for editing your story and changing your life and maybe 44 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: you should talk to someone journal fifty two weekly sessions 45 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 2: to transform your life. If you don't have a copy 46 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: of this, make sure you go and grab one while 47 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: we're having this conversation. And I'm so excited to welcome 48 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 2: again to On Purpose Lurie Gottlieb Lurie, thank you for 49 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 2: being here. 50 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Jay, so great to be here again. 51 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: I've always loved collaborating with you, and I've always appreciated 52 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: your work. I know so many people in my life 53 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: that have benefited from your work and your books and 54 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 2: your podcast and everything you do online. And so I 55 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: thought the most fitting thing to do in my team 56 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 2: thought was to get you questions from our audience so 57 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: that you could answer real life scenarios, challenges, pain points 58 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: that my friends or my community are going through. How 59 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: does that sound. 60 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: That sounds fantastic? 61 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, Well let's dive in. So I've been 62 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: talking to a friend and one of the biggest challenges 63 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: she's going through is that men tend to want to 64 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 2: have a relationship with her, even though she tends to 65 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: want to be friends with them and is open potentially 66 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: at some point in the future to it going somewhere else, 67 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: but is not putting herself out there saying I want 68 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: to be in a relationship, I want to date. She 69 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: wants to just build up good connections, good friendships, and 70 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: what ends up happening is that she ends up in 71 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: these scenarios where men are then sometimes guilty shaming, bullying 72 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: her into believing that there's something more here and that 73 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: she's denying it. And she feels really uncomfortable because deep 74 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: down she cares about this individual, She admires them, appreciates them, 75 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: but she just doesn't see them romantically. And I think 76 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 2: what's really hard is the deeper point that I think 77 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: is more universal that a lot of people can connect with, 78 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: is you care about someone, just not in that way, 79 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: so you don't know how to keep a distance at 80 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: the same time you don't want to be intimate with them. 81 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 2: Does that make. 82 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: Sense, Yeah, it absolutely does. And I think that the 83 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: pro people have is that they feel like, I don't 84 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: want to hurt this person, and at the same time 85 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: they're not thinking about what matters in this friendship to me, 86 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: So it doesn't sound like a great friendship if the 87 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: other person is telling you no, you actually feel this 88 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: other way. So you want to talk about. Are you willing? 89 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: Are you interested in being friends with me? Because I'm 90 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: not interested in anything else, And part of being friends 91 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: with me is hearing what I have to say and 92 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: believing me. Otherwise they don't think we're going to have 93 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: a friendship that's healthy. So if you want to be 94 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: in my life, I would like to be in your life. 95 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: If you want that, then I need you to believe 96 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: me when I tell you this is how I feel, 97 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: and not try to push me into something that doesn't 98 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: feel comfortable to me. And then that person can really 99 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: think do I want this person in my life? Knowing 100 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: this is their hard boundary, But people don't say it 101 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: that way. They feel like I'm going to hurt this person, 102 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: or they start arguing with the person. If you find 103 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: yourself arguing with someone about how you feel, that's not 104 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: a great friendship. 105 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: And that's so hard right I feel today so many 106 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: of these conversations are happening over text yes or messaging. 107 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: These aren't face to face conversations. They're happening in a 108 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,679 Speaker 2: way where you're writing this much, someone's responding reply back. 109 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 2: When you find that this goes on and on and on, 110 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 2: and it can kind of spiral for days, sometimes weeks. 111 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 2: How do you kind of accept that it might be 112 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: time to draw a line, maybe distance or disconnect and 113 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: move on even though that's painful, Or what is that 114 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 2: moment where you can kind of just say, I'm going 115 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: to honor myself. I'm going to honor what I wanted 116 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: from this friendship that doesn't exist anymore. 117 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: You know, first of all, I think that this thing 118 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: about text is really important. I have so many clients 119 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: who come into therapy and they'll say, you know, we 120 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: had this conversation and they'll tell me this conversation that 121 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: went on and on and on and on, and I'm thinking, 122 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: how did this conversation go on? Were they there for 123 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: five hours whatever? And it turns out they've been texting 124 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: for days about it. Yeah, why didn't you just have 125 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: conversation face to face? And they say, well, that would 126 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: have been too hard. But look how hard it is 127 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: to have it on text. I think it's so much 128 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: harder to have it on text, because when you're together, 129 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: you're actually connecting, even if it's difficult, even if you're 130 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: saying some things that might cause some discomfort, it's easier 131 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: actually to do it in person. So it's kind of 132 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: paradoxical that people think I'm going to protect myself and 133 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: somebody else by doing this on text, because you're not 134 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: protecting anyone. It's easier to have a challenging conversation in person. 135 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: It goes so much better. 136 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: How have you encouraged people to take that leap into 137 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: having difficult conversations across relationships, not just in this scenario 138 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,119 Speaker 2: in person, because it's exactly what you just said. People 139 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 2: feel anxious, they feel like they were't no how to 140 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: control their emotions. They feel they might say something that 141 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 2: don't mean, or the other person might say something they're 142 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 2: not ready to hear. And I find more and more people, 143 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: whether it's in the workplace, whether it's in their marriage, 144 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: whether it's in a friendship, struggle to have difficult conversations 145 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 2: face to face. What are some of the practices or 146 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: methods or tools that you've shared with people to help 147 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: them do that well. 148 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: First of all, I think that people establish patterns in 149 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: a relationship very early on. I always say that relationships 150 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: are like cement, So in the beginning, there's a little flexibility, 151 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: So the other person is texting you when you want 152 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: to have a conversation. You can kind of mold that 153 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: by saying, hey, let's talk in person. But if you 154 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: keep texting them, then the cement dries and that becomes 155 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: the pattern in the relationship with anything. So many people 156 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: put up with a lot at the beginning of a 157 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: relationship because they think this person has all these other 158 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: great qualities. So what if they can't really have a 159 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: conversation with me, right, you know, I have so much 160 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,239 Speaker 1: fun with them, or I can fix them or over time. 161 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: I'll bring this up later, but I don't want to 162 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: bring it up now because we're early in the relationship. No, no, no, 163 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: that's the time you should bring it up, because the 164 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: cement is drying, and it dries quickly, so patterns get established. 165 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: So if the cement is dry and then you try 166 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: to change it and say, let's have a face to 167 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: face conversation, but you guys have been texting about things 168 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: for months instead of talking about them, it's really hard 169 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: to change that. So I would say, very early on, 170 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: establish what you want in a relationship, and if the 171 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: other person isn't down for it, that's really good information 172 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: to have early on. 173 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: It's almost like, well, now, if you want to talk 174 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: to me about in person. It must be high stakes. Yes, 175 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: it almost like amplifies how significant this moment is when 176 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: it shouldn't be that way. It should be the norm. 177 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,359 Speaker 2: If someone is doing it later on in a relationship, 178 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: how do they do it in a way that doesn't 179 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: feel like this is groundbreaking or this is we need 180 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: to talk. 181 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's really it's actually pretty straightforward. And I know, 182 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: I know it's hard to do in the moment, but 183 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: to be able to just make that shift in the 184 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: relationship and say, you know what. I know we've been 185 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: texting about this stuff, but I think it'll be so 186 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: much better for us. It's so much easier to talk 187 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: about this in person. 188 00:08:59,760 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 189 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: And then you see, will the other person show up, 190 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: will they keep texting you, or will they say, sure, 191 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: let's get together, let's talk about it. 192 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like a lot of people just keep texting. 193 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: Because what they're afraid of is they're afraid that it's 194 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: going to be harder again, like they're going to drop 195 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: some big bombshell And you're saying, no, I just want 196 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: us to be able to be in a room together 197 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: and talk about anything. 198 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, all right, Great, Well, I hope, friend, if 199 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: you're listening, I hope the answers to your question. Another 200 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: one that kept coming up from our audience, there are 201 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: a couple of people who felt this way was around 202 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 2: and I want to spend some time in Actually, we'll 203 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: go back and forth. We'll go back and forth, We'll 204 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 2: come back to relationships. One of the biggest ones that 205 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 2: we obviously get a lot about is social anxiety, and 206 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 2: a lot of the questions that came up and some 207 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 2: of the stories that I dived into, is people just 208 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: struggling with being around big groups, people going to events 209 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: or parties or even their friends home where other people 210 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: are there, struggling to strike up a conversation, feeling lonely 211 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 2: and disconnected even in the crowd, feeling uncomfortable being able 212 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: to share what they're doing, and feeling confident about what 213 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: they're doing. Let's talk about where's the root of some 214 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 2: of that social anxiety coming from. I know it can 215 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: be many different things. What are the variety of things 216 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: it can be, and what have you seen some of 217 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 2: the ways of helping people understand that anxiety better. Rather 218 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 2: than staying at home, keeping away and maybe not encouraged 219 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: to go out and meet people. 220 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: So I think that whatever we're experiencing is relational and 221 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: so a lot of times relational issues or childhood issues 222 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: in disguise and even with social anxiety. So for example, 223 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: if you have a story that you've been told when 224 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: you were younger, like I'm not good enough or I 225 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: don't measure up, or you know people are going to 226 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: criticize me. Whatever your experience had been, you're going to 227 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: project that onto all of your relationships as an adult. 228 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: So social anxiety is usually something about I will not 229 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: be liked, I will not be loved, and that has 230 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: to do with how you were liked or loved when 231 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: you were younger, if you haven't processed that and worked 232 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: that out. So I think that it's about kind of 233 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: rewriting your story before you say, you know, I'm not 234 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: going to go to that event. Is what am I 235 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: afraid of? What am I afraid someone's going to think? 236 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: And is that true? And do I have evidence from 237 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: other parts of my life now as an adult that 238 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: it's not true? I think unfortunately, the stories that people 239 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: told us about ourselves are about the storyteller, meaning it 240 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: was the person you know in our past who had 241 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: mental health issues, or they had their own insecurities and 242 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: they projected them onto their children. They were limited, they 243 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: didn't know how to interact, they didn't know how to love, 244 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: and then they criticized their children, or they neglected their children, 245 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: or they couldn't hear them or see them or value them. 246 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: They couldn't feel that excitement around, like I love who 247 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: this human being is and I think. Then that gets internalized, 248 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: and then you grow up and you think everybody in 249 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: the world thinks that about me, and A it's just 250 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: not true that other people think that. But more importantly, 251 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: it's just not true that you are whatever story you 252 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: were told about you. So you need to say what 253 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: is the true story? And then you go into that 254 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: environment with the true story. And it doesn't mean you 255 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: have to go to a party with one hundred people. 256 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: It means maybe I open up to a friend a 257 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: little bit more, Maybe I try hanging out with a 258 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: group of three people and see what that's like. And 259 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: you kind of experiment. And when you see that this story, 260 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: this old story, doesn't seem to be playing out in 261 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: these new situations, you get more confident going into bigger 262 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: and bigger situations. 263 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's those baby steps, and I often surprise people 264 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 2: when I tell them that I'm in some cases so 265 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 2: much more of an intro than I am an extrovert. 266 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: And it's so it's kind of confusing for people because 267 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 2: I generally am in places where I can be my 268 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: extra itself. But if I go to an event where 269 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 2: I don't know anyone, I'm likely to try and find 270 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 2: one person that I can have a really deep, meaningful 271 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 2: conversation with rather than working the room or trying to 272 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 2: connect with loads of people, because I feel so much 273 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: happier and fulfilled if I can walk away from an 274 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 2: event and go, wow, I met one person and we 275 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,359 Speaker 2: have so much in common, and we share so many values, 276 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 2: and now I'm actually going to keep in touch with 277 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: that person, as opposed to the idea of like, well, 278 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: oh my god, I feel the pressure that I need 279 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: to talk to twenty people here and I should be 280 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 2: networking and I should be exchanging numbers and whatever it 281 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 2: may be, which isn't how I like to operate. And 282 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 2: so I love that idea of those baby steps and 283 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 2: starting small. 284 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. And I also think there's a difference between 285 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: being an introvert. I'm exactly like you in the sense 286 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: of I really like to have these deep conversations and 287 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: I'd rather be with fewer people and have a deeper 288 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: connection than be with more people and have a more 289 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: superficial connection. But at the same time, I feel like 290 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: it's one thing to say I would rather have these 291 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: sort of smaller and more intimate conversations, but I'm not 292 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: anxious going into them. And so I think what you're 293 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: talking about with social anxiety is I'm anxious to just 294 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: reveal the truth of who I am to anybody. I'm 295 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,359 Speaker 1: worried about showing up and being found wanting. 296 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that is what a lot of 297 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: people are struggling with. So I guess does it help? 298 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 2: Then having a question you want to ask people? Does 299 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 2: it help? I found that for people that I work 300 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 2: with when they struggle because they're like, what do we 301 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: talk about? I don't want to sit there and talk 302 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: about the weather or I don't want to talk about 303 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: the news, or And it was like having a question 304 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: to open with, to ask, to share with someone, and 305 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: being confident to share on that question felt like something 306 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: that definitely has helped me and help people. I know 307 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 2: where you also know that you do feel comfortable sharing 308 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: that part of your life. Have you found any other 309 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: tools or methods that have helped individuals in those spaces? 310 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: What you're saying is so true, And I think that's 311 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: curiosity that I think when people feel anxious, they feel 312 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: like they have to tell a story that's entertaining. They 313 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: have to keep the person from being bored with whatever 314 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: they're talking about. People like to talk about themselves, So 315 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: if you're here, and I don't mean that in kind 316 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: of a narcissistic way, I mean that people like it 317 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: when you show interest in them, and we don't a 318 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: lot of people don't ask other people about themselves enough, 319 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: so when they have an opportunity, for a person who 320 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: genuinely is curious, this isn't just some kind of strategy 321 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: for your social anxiety. It's actually a way to relate 322 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: to people. I'm genuinely curious to get to know you, 323 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: and you ask questions about their life, They're going to 324 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: be really interested in interacting with you. 325 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think what's even more true about what 326 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: you're saying is that everyone's feeling that way, and therefore 327 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: everyone feels like everyone is uninterested in everyone else. Yes, 328 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: And so I've been to events with people before and 329 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: they've come with me and they've said, oh, that person 330 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: was so cold, or that person seemed like they had 331 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: an ego, and I was like, well, no, I know 332 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: that that person just feels uncomfortable in these And it's 333 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: weird how we all just look at each other and 334 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: we kind of make these judgments of like, oh, they 335 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 2: were called they brushed me off. Yeah, but actually everyone's 336 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: just feeling quite anxious as opposed to having this like 337 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 2: vendetta against you or some sort of And obviously there 338 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 2: could be something else as you get to know them better, 339 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 2: but it's worth giving someone the benefit of the doubt 340 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: and stepping it out there. Yeah. 341 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: And I also think another thing that turns people off 342 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: is when you ask about sort of external things like 343 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: tell me about what you do, tell me about your work, right, 344 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: because then it feels like, oh, are they trying to 345 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: network with me or did they actually want to get 346 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: to know me. You know, you can ask something like 347 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: where did you grow up? Yes, something as simple as that, 348 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, I grew up here. Oh really, wow, 349 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: you know that's so different from where I grew up 350 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: or I grew up somewhere similar and you know, did 351 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: you have siblings? Did you what was that? 352 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: Like? 353 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: How did you end up here? Just get their story? 354 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, I think you're spot on. I think the 355 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: work question is kind of it's kind of faded away. 356 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 2: I feel like it's how people used to talk and connect. 357 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: And you're so right. I think now everyone always feels 358 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: like what's the agenda here? But asking about Yeah, for me, 359 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 2: when I'm at a birthday party, like how do you 360 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 2: know the person whose birthday is? How do you know 361 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 2: the person who's getting married? Like how are you connected 362 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: to them? I found that to be a much healthier question. 363 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: And then as you were just saying, now, like I 364 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 2: love asking people where they're from because I'm from London, 365 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 2: I lived in New York, I live here now. It's like, 366 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: it's great for me to learn about the United States 367 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 2: because people are from all over the place here and 368 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 2: places I've never heard of or never been to. It 369 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: can be an education and all of a sudden, it's 370 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 2: you can see someone opening up. And it's easy for 371 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: most people to mention where they grew up or where 372 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: they started, rather than a question about like their job 373 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 2: or whatever. 374 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: It may be, right, because that always feels there's so 375 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: much pressure with that. Am I successful enough? Am I 376 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: telling the right story? Or if you are successful, I 377 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: don't want to make them feel bad, you know. So 378 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: there's all this stuff underneath, whereas we're just connecting human 379 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: to human with tell me about yourself, tell me about 380 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:00,120 Speaker 1: your story. 381 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, all right, now I want to switch into 382 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: back into relationships because it seems to be a big one. 383 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 2: And this is something that a couple of people that 384 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 2: came through our audience have been struggling with, and it 385 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: was this idea of being with someone or dating someone 386 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: but you don't like their work ethic or you don't 387 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 2: think they are focused enough. So these people say that 388 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 2: I'm very hard working, I'm very focused. I've started dating 389 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 2: this person who I like a lot of qualities they have, 390 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 2: but something I really obviously value is someone who's driven, 391 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 2: an ambitious, and a doer. But I'm not really seeing 392 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: that in them. Does this relationship have a chance to last, 393 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 2: does it have a future? Or am I always going 394 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: to feel this way? 395 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: This reminds me of this saying you don't choose a 396 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: partner a la carte. You can't just order up all 397 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,959 Speaker 1: the qualities that you want, you know, I want them 398 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: to I want them to be sensitive, and I want 399 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: them to be kind, and I want them to be 400 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 1: super driven and ambitious and I want you know, you 401 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,479 Speaker 1: get what you get, and there's going to be all 402 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: these different qualities. And if that's really important to you 403 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: and you are going to feel like I want to 404 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: change this person, then that's doomed that the person is 405 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: who they are now. It's different if the person says, 406 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: I'm working on this for myself, this is something that 407 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: I'm trying to do. This is my area of growth 408 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: right now. And maybe you might say, how can I 409 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: support you? And then you only do what they ask 410 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: you don't do more than they asked in terms of 411 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: supporting that. But if you want someone who comes, you know, 412 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: intrinsically driven in that way, that's probably not a good 413 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: partner for you. 414 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: And I guess the counterpoint is also true that you 415 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: may discover someone ambitious and driven, but they may not 416 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 2: have the other qualities. But I think it's obviously what 417 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 2: researches today are calling the paradox of choice. Right. We've 418 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 2: heard that so many times, and I think today because 419 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: there is so much more choice or at least the 420 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 2: perception that there is so much more choice. I think 421 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 2: there is a belief that people have of I don't 422 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 2: want to settle. I believe this person does exist that 423 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 2: will have all of these things. How have you navigated 424 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: that with clients when they're telling you, I feel like 425 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 2: I'm getting older, I'm worried about my body, Clark, I'm 426 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: scared about, you know, not finding someone. I'm getting pressure 427 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 2: from my parents and my friends. But at the same time, 428 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: I don't want to settle, which is a completely fair, 429 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: valid feeling. Right at the same time, you're saying, well, 430 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: you can't order someone a la cart, and so how 431 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 2: do we kind of how do you help people grapple 432 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: with those I guess conflicting ideas or what at least 433 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 2: seems that way. 434 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: I think you have to know what your deal breakers are, 435 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: but they have to be the right kind of deal breakers. 436 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: So I want people to kind of let go of 437 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: some of the things that research shows doesn't matter for 438 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: a happy, lasting relationship, and I want people to have 439 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: higher standards ironically about what does. So the character issues, 440 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: you know, is this person a kind person? The two 441 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: most important predictors of whether a relationship will succeed are 442 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: emotional stability? Do you both have emotional stability or your 443 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: whole in that way? I don't mean like you're finished, right, 444 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: I just mean that you can self regulate, you can 445 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: have a conversation, you don't act out in egregious ways, 446 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 1: you're honest, those kinds of things. And the other one 447 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: is flexibility. It's really hard to be in a relationship 448 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: with someone who's very rigid. So those are two things 449 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: really to think about. But in terms of the character 450 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: qualities that should be the big deal breakers. Is this 451 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: person responsible? Do they say, do they mean what they say? 452 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: How did they show up? What do they do under stress? 453 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: That's really important because you will experience that in the 454 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: course of your lives together. Do they have a sense 455 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: of humor right in when things are stressful? Can we 456 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: still hold those contradictions of this is hard and we 457 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: can support each other and make each other laugh. 458 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 2: You know? 459 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: The things that people get hung up on are, oh, 460 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that that career is the career that 461 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: I want to be with someone, right, as opposed to Wow, 462 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: they're really passionate about this thing. That's a really cool quality. 463 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: So maybe they won't make as much money, but between 464 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: what I make and what they make, will that work 465 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: for us? So, you know, letting go is sort of 466 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: like a lot of these fantasies that we're told growing 467 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: up we should be looking for in a partner versus 468 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: who do you want to spend time with every day? 469 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: Who is the person that you really enjoy spending time with, 470 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: who you also feel safe with? And I think safety 471 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,719 Speaker 1: is so important. I feel safe with this person because 472 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,959 Speaker 1: I know that the rug is not going to be 473 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: pulled out from under me. 474 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such great advice. 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So visit drink Juni 493 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 2: dot com today to elevate your wellness journey and use 494 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 2: code on Purpose to receive fifteen percent off your first order. 495 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: That's drink ja Uni dot com and make sure you 496 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 2: use the code on purpose. I love hearing about the 497 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 2: things that should be deal breakers and the things that shouldn't, 498 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 2: and I want to talk about those first two. I 499 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 2: find that so much growth today, and maybe it's always 500 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: been this way, but so much of our growth is 501 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 2: happening while we're with people. It's not happening in that 502 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 2: we solved it before we were eighteen or twenty one, 503 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: and now we move on to a relationship. And I 504 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 2: don't think people are often getting the best versions of people. 505 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: You're getting the work in progress version at all times. 506 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 2: Like you said, no one's ever finished. But I find 507 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: that more often than not, I'm just hearing about such 508 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: a lack of flexibility and such a lack of emotional 509 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 2: regulation when I'm hearing about people's stories and learning about 510 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 2: them and how people talk to each other, how people 511 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 2: deal with problems, and I find, of course, where do 512 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 2: obviously all of that I'm in talking to you from 513 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 2: a therapist perspective, A lot of that's coming from childhood, 514 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 2: a lot of that's coming from personal trauma. It's very 515 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: hard to make sense of that. When you first meet 516 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 2: someone and you're dating someone, you're almost meeting the you 517 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 2: are meeting the best version of them, because it's the 518 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: one they're portraying or the one that they want you 519 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: to see. And then naturally you spend longer with someone, 520 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 2: you see them stressed, you see them angry, you see 521 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 2: them upset, You start seeing all of this other three sixty. 522 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 2: I guess the question is, how do we allow for 523 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 2: the fact that we're less likely to meet someone who 524 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 2: is the finished product, but at the same time give 525 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 2: ourselves enough time to not feel too deep or fall 526 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: too hard. 527 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about that saying, in the first three 528 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: months of a relationship, you're not you. You're the ambassador 529 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 1: of you, so it's very hard to know and everybody's 530 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: on their best behavior. But I think that people, you know, 531 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: you're still having a lot of deep discussions in those 532 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: first three months because you feel this incredible vulnerability and intimacy, 533 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: and people will tell you a lot of things that 534 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: maybe you don't want to hear, so they are these 535 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 1: red flags and you kind of block them out. You think, oh, 536 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: well that's okay, or I'm not going to pay attention 537 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: to that. You project onto them who you want them 538 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: to be as opposed to who they actually are. And 539 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: I think that what you said about we grow in 540 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: relationship is so true. I think that people grow so 541 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: much more in couple's therapy than they might even an 542 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: individual therapy, because you are forced to contend with another 543 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: person that you're coming up against, and I really feel 544 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: like a you have to listen to those to those 545 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: everything that they tell you, the good, the kind of questionable, 546 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: all of it and just say what does that mean? 547 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: And you can even think about, well, let me get 548 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: more information about that. What did they mean when they said, oh, 549 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: they don't really want kids? Like, what does that mean? 550 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: Does that mean? Now? Does that mean? Ever? What does 551 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: that mean? You have to listen to these things, you know, 552 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: what does that mean? Where they're they talk really really uh, 553 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: you know, with a lot of aggressive language about a 554 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: parents for example, that means that, yes, maybe that parent 555 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: really disappointed them and maybe there was a lot of trauma. 556 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: But how have a sort of process that and where 557 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: are they with processing that? Because if that's still so 558 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: raw to them, that will come out in your relationship 559 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: with them. You might not think they're gonna that's gonna 560 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: come out toward you, but it will. Right we marry 561 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: our unfinished business. So I think you really have to 562 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:45,959 Speaker 1: look out for that. So, no, you're not looking for 563 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: like a person who has all the answers. I don't 564 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: think anybody ever has all the answers. But you're looking 565 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: for willingness to show up, willingness to take responsibility, willingness 566 00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: to apologize. That's huge, and also will to bring things up. 567 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: So and are you willing to hear what the other 568 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: person has to say. So a lot of times when 569 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: I'm seeing a couple and someone will say, you know, oh, 570 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: this person never brings things up, I'm less interested in 571 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: the fact that they don't bring it up, and I'm 572 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: more interested in why what are you afraid of? Why 573 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: can't you talk to your partner? And they might say 574 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: when I have brought things up, my partner tries to 575 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: talk me out of the way that I feel. When 576 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: I try to bring things up, my partner tries to 577 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: tell me I'm wrong. When I try to bring things up. 578 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: My partner shuts down. When I try to bring things up, 579 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: My partner yells. When I try to bring things up, 580 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: my partner acts like they don't like me anymore. Right, 581 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: So then they say, okay, I'm not going to bring 582 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: things up. So then we need to talk about Well, 583 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: this is a dance that the two of you are doing. 584 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: It's not just that this person is avoidant. It's that 585 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: you are inviting the avoidance. So no one's to blame here. 586 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: It's just that you guys are doing a dance and 587 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: you both have to change your downce steps if you 588 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: want to change the dynamic in the relationship. 589 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 2: I think a lot of our inflexibility leads to this 590 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 2: binary thinking of oh my gosh, if they've got issues 591 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: with their parents, then I can't be with them. Or 592 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 2: if they've got this, I can't be with them, and 593 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: I think, or if they're like this, then I should 594 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 2: be with them. And I almost feel like there's that 595 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 2: middle ground of just no, I just these are things 596 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 2: I need to be aware of, and then I can 597 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: still be in a relationship or choose not to. But 598 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 2: I feel like there's a lot of binary decision making 599 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 2: based on small data points. Yes, because we are so 600 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: scared by our own trigger or by our own pain 601 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 2: that comes from that, that we can easily write something 602 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 2: off that may just need a little more work. Yeah, 603 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 2: I don't know if that. If you agree, you can 604 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 2: disagree completely. That's I'm just sharing what my thoughts at least. 605 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I agree. A great example of that is 606 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: I was seeing a couple and he had a lot 607 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: of issues with authority because his father really kind of 608 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: misused authority as he was growing up. So that's a 609 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: big trigger for him and he's really working on it. 610 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: So if he wasn't working on it, that would be different. 611 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: But he's really working on it, but sometimes things happen. 612 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: And so his partner had this beautiful we came up 613 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: with in couple's therapy, a beautiful way for her, you know, 614 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: when you can see the childhood wounds and you can 615 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: help you. They're working on it, so you're not solving 616 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: it for them, but you can support them in some way. 617 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: So if she saw him out in public, maybe getting 618 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: triggered by something, it wouldn't happen often, if it happened 619 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: a lot, that would be a problem. She would just 620 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: put her hand on his arm like that, and it 621 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: just calmed his nervous system and it brought him to 622 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: the present. Was such a beautiful thing that she could 623 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: do for him, and she had stuff from childhood, and 624 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: he knew, oh, I can see the little girl in 625 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: her right now. I have so much compassion instead of 626 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: getting frustrated by it, so much compassion for the little girl. 627 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: I know this about her, and here's what I can 628 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: do for her in that moment. These shorthands, these little 629 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: things that you can do to kind of help someone. 630 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: Instead of going from zero to sixty, just go from 631 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: like zero to five and then be like, oh, now 632 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: I can come back down. 633 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 2: We think we can see where our partner's triggers are 634 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: and what their weaknesses are, especially if you get to 635 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 2: know them better and you start to think, oh, yeah, 636 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 2: I know that his mum talks to him like that, 637 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: and so that's why he's talking to me like that, 638 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 2: because he's taking that stress out on me. That's useful, 639 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,239 Speaker 2: But often we don't look at that as context and 640 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 2: compassion and empathy. We look at that as how does 641 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 2: he not get it? 642 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: Yes? 643 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: Or how did they not get it that? That's where 644 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 2: it comes from, and we almost want our partner to 645 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: learn the lesson or it's so obvious, how can you 646 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 2: not see it? And here you are talking about like 647 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 2: a gentle test in the arm that helps someone calm 648 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: their trigger. How do you help each other understand your 649 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 2: triggers in a way that doesn't trigger you? Because I 650 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 2: feel like it's such a sensitive conversation to have, and 651 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 2: because some people areselfs unaware and some are self aware, 652 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: or you're seeing things in others but you can't see 653 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: in yourself, how do you have healthier conversations around Hey, 654 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 2: do you know why we're behaving this way? Do you 655 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: know why we're talking like this. 656 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, we just had a beautiful episode on the podcast. 657 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: So on our podcast Gear Therapist, we have we bring 658 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: people on for actual sessions and then we give them 659 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: homework to do and then they tell us how it went. 660 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: To the end of the session, we had this young 661 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: couple on and her trigger was wait that she wanted 662 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: to She was trying to set a boundary, but it 663 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: was a very difficult boundary. It was you know, sometimes 664 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: we think about boundaries as I'm going to make this requestion, 665 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: You're going to do it, and if you don't do it, 666 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: then you have broken my boundary. That's not how boundaries work. Okay, 667 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: boundaries are about and I think this is a really 668 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: important point related to this, which is that when you 669 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: set a boundary, you're deciding for yourself what you will do, 670 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: not what the other person will do. So you can 671 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: say to the other person in her case, I don't 672 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: like it when you talk about weight, because that's a 673 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: big trigger for me growing up. That was something that 674 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: was always talked about. I don't want to talk about dieting, 675 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about people's weight or people's appearance. 676 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: That really bothers me. But it got to the point 677 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: where he couldn't say anything about you know, like it 678 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: was too restrictive of a boundary. And so they would 679 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: argue about this because he's just like, I'm just not 680 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,479 Speaker 1: going to say anything because I never know what's going 681 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: to trigger you. Her boundary could have been I'm going 682 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: to ask him not to say a reasonable number of 683 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: things about weight, but there are certain things that he 684 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: might say and I'm going to have to maybe leave 685 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: the room or I'm going to self regulate, or I'm 686 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: going to have a mantra for myself. That's what I'm 687 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: going to do. They would argue about this, and what 688 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: would happen is she would you know, we had to 689 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: get to sort of what was underneath this, and she 690 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: finally discovered it's like I need more affirmation. I need 691 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: more like just flirt with me during the day or 692 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,239 Speaker 1: you know. And he said I need that too, and 693 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: so we gave them this homework assign where they just 694 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: had to do one very subtle flirtation, you know, just 695 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: once a day, and she left a little note on 696 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: the bathroom mirror and he said, oh my god, that 697 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 1: made me feel so the whole day. I was so excited. 698 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: It is these tiny things, and so then she was 699 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: less triggered when like food would come up, because he 700 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: was so much about, like, you look beautiful, and she said, 701 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: you always say when I get my eyebrows done, You're 702 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: like dang, And she's like, why won't you do that 703 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: with other things? I don't want to have to get 704 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: my eyebrows done, right, And he was like, oh my god, 705 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: I think you're so beautiful. I should be saying that more. 706 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 707 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 1: So it just realizing, you know, what is the trigger 708 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: really about? And then how can you as a partner 709 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: support that? 710 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just want to reemphasize that point if 711 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 2: anyone missed it. It's like, boundaries are not to control 712 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,439 Speaker 2: other people's actions towards you. There to control your own 713 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 2: actions based on what others do to you. 714 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: Right, And the important part about boundaries is maintenance, by 715 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: the way, So it's not just one time. It's let's 716 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: say that you say to someone, you know, if you 717 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: yell at me, if you raise your voice, I'm going 718 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: to end the conversation. We had this on the podcast 719 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: with someone else that the father was kept talking to 720 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: his daughter about when are you going to get married? 721 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: When are you and your boyfriend going to get married, 722 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: and she said to him, if you bring that up, 723 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: I'm gonna end the conversation or I'm going to leave 724 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: the room because I want to have fun with you 725 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: when i'm with you, and this just makes it really stressful. 726 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,720 Speaker 1: And so every time it had to be in every 727 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: time he mentions that, you say, Dad, just reminder, we'll 728 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: talk another time. And if you don't do that, if 729 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: you don't do it consistently, like let's say that you 730 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: do it ten times, but then one time you like 731 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: let that conversation continue, the person thinks, oh, I can 732 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: still talk about this because they're not going to leave 733 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,919 Speaker 1: the room. They're not going to end the conversation. So again, 734 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: it's what you do. You have to hold the boundary 735 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: every single time for yourself and the other person is 736 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: going to realize at a certain point, if I want 737 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: to be in that person's presence, I can't bring this 738 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: up because every single time they're going to leave. 739 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 2: And I think that's the mistake we make. We break 740 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 2: our own boundaries in order to show our care or 741 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 2: to be seen as a good person or whatever it 742 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 2: may be. But that ends up setting us up for 743 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 2: more failure because now that person thinks they can cross 744 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 2: the boundary as well because we're doing it anyway. Yes, yes, 745 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,919 Speaker 2: boundaries are just such a fascinating thing because I find 746 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 2: them so useful in so many areas of my life. 747 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 2: But I think you just hit the nail on the 748 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 2: head that it's our own letting our guard down about 749 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 2: our own boundaries that actually allows people to think they 750 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 2: can break them anyway. It's not about them breaking them down, 751 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,399 Speaker 2: like if you stay pretty strong on that, I mean, 752 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 2: if I mean, people can still do what they want, 753 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 2: but at least you'll know where you stand with them. 754 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 2: I remember a small example of what you just said. 755 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 2: I remember whenever i'd go back to London because I'd 756 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 2: like to see my family there. There'd be certain members 757 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 2: of my family. You'd always say to me, Oh, you're 758 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 2: only back for thirty days, and then i'd see them 759 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 2: the week. Often they'd be like, oh, you've only got 760 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 2: twenty one days left, and I'd just be like, guys, 761 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 2: I'm back for thirty days, like you know. And I 762 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: had to draw a boundary around just and it sounds 763 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 2: so small and silly, but it isn't. Because I didn't 764 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 2: like hearing that, because I was like, let's just be 765 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 2: really grateful for this present moment, Like let's have the 766 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 2: best time w'k together right now. And I don't want 767 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 2: to sit here and think about how many days I 768 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 2: have left again. It can be so small, but it 769 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 2: can be so important to you. But I have to 770 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 2: honor that. Okay, if you bring up time again, then 771 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 2: XYZ is going to happen or whatever it may be. 772 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, And the other thing about boundaries is that people 773 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: think that boundaries separate you. The point of the boundary 774 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: is to bring you closer. It's I can be in 775 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: RelA I want to be in relationship with you, but 776 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,959 Speaker 1: we need to have these boundaries. I remember somebody wrote 777 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: into the column. A parent wrote in and said, my 778 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: daughter has all these boundaries about how many times I 779 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: call her during the day. And she said, you know, 780 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: I want I'm setting a boundary. And he wrote in 781 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: and said, I don't want to have a boundaried relationship. 782 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: And I wrote back and I said, every relationship is 783 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: a boundaried relationship. You can't just do whatever you want 784 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: in a relationship. All relationships have boundaries. It's like it's 785 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: kind of like the difference between being in an ocean 786 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: with no boundaries, or being in a fish bowl where 787 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: the boundaries are too tight and people can't live. You 788 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: want to be in an aquarium in relationship, right, so 789 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,879 Speaker 1: there's enough room for each person to kind of have 790 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 1: their space, but it's not so constrained that like everybody's 791 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: walking on eggshells, and it's not so open like an 792 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: ocean where there's you can just do whatever you want. 793 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, well said, I like that analogy, and I. 794 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: Think that the important thing about the boundary is when 795 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: you set the boundary, it's saying I want to be 796 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: closer to you, I want to be in relationship with you. 797 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 1: But if you keep doing that, it's going to push 798 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: me away. So please don't mention this, right, don't criticize me, 799 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: don't talk about whether I'm married, because that's going to 800 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: make me go farther away. I want to be close to. 801 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 2: You, and actually that is a sign of closeness because 802 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 2: if someone actually learns about your boundary, they actually are 803 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 2: learning about some of the most intimate details about you. 804 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 2: Because if you're saying this triggers me, or this makes 805 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 2: me feel upset, or this really gets to me, you're 806 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 2: actually displaying vulnerably something that's so significant and meaningful to you, 807 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 2: and so it should bring you closer to someone else. 808 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 2: It's like that person actually values and respects you so 809 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 2: much to actually open up and share with you a 810 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 2: weakness or a pain point. 811 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: Yeah. I saw some friends on the podcast we were doing, 812 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: and they came together and they were saying, like, I 813 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: set some boundaries, and the other person thinks that I 814 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: don't want to be friends. And know what you're saying 815 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: is I want this friend. They've been friends since childhood 816 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: and things change, things evolve as you move into adulthood 817 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: and you move into family life and your different stages 818 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: of life, whatever they might be. And this person was like, 819 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: I am doing this because I want to Our friendship 820 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: matters to me. It's important. And once the other friend 821 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: heard that the boundaries were fine, it was that this 822 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: person thought, oh, you're trying to dump me, and she's saying, no, 823 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: I'm doing the opposite. I'm trying to keep our friendship alive. 824 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's part of the communication. I 825 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 2: feel like there's a need for whoever you are, if 826 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 2: you're the person in the relationship, that's almost to some 827 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 2: degree guiding this conversation. It's important for you to clarify 828 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 2: why you're setting the boundary. I think often we just 829 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 2: say this is what I want to do, and we 830 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 2: kind of announce it, and it's more of an announcement 831 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 2: than it is a setting of a boundary. And it's 832 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 2: so much more powerful when someone says to you, Hey, 833 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 2: I actually really value our relationship and I think this 834 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 2: is going to bring us closer. And that's why I'm 835 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 2: actually being really vulnerable with you and I'm sharing with 836 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 2: you this is how I feel when you do this, 837 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 2: and it mean the world to me if we were 838 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 2: able to shift this or this is how I'm probably 839 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 2: going to behave if this happens. But that kind of 840 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 2: casing that sometimes our communication needs to be and it 841 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 2: demands a lot of us. And I get this feedback 842 00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 2: from a lot of people when we're talking to them 843 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 2: on the podcast and through my books and everything, is 844 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 2: that people feel like they're often the one carrying the 845 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 2: torch to help this maturity develop in a relationship, and 846 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 2: a lot of people are quite exhausted by it. They're like, well, gosh, 847 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 2: I'm like trying to help us set boundaries. I'm the 848 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 2: one like setting agreements. I'm the one who's like encouraging 849 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 2: us to be positive, and it can get really exhausting 850 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 2: carrying the torch. How what do you say to people 851 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 2: who feel that way right now? But they're like, you 852 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,760 Speaker 2: know what, Laurie, I'm trying to be curious with my partner. 853 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 2: I'm trying to do this with my friends. I'm like 854 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 2: the one setting up this, but like I'm exhausted now, 855 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 2: and so I don't know how long I can do 856 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 2: it for and I just want them to step up. 857 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: So often what we'll see is if that person will 858 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: come to couple's therapy, we'll find out either the person 859 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 1: doesn't want to step up and you keep asking them 860 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: to do something they are not interested in doing, and 861 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: so that just you know, So the question I would 862 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 1: ask the person who feels like they're holding the burden 863 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: of it all is why are you trying so hard? 864 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 1: Why are you in this? 865 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 2: You know? 866 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: Like, what is how is this serving you? Because this 867 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: is so hard, you're not happy? Why do you remain it? 868 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: Why are you trying to get this person to do something? 869 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,800 Speaker 1: Why don't you find someone who is willing and interested 870 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: in the kinds of things that you're interested in in 871 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: a relationship, and so then there's some usually some old 872 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 1: stuff there about. You know what we call repetition compulsion, 873 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: which is trying to you find someone who is unwilling 874 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: to give you what you need or want, which is 875 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: maybe some old stuff. And then you then you think like, 876 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 1: I'm going to do it with this person because this 877 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,720 Speaker 1: time i'll win. This time I can make it happen. 878 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 1: I couldn't make it happen when I was a child, 879 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: but this time I'll win. Except you won't win. It 880 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: doesn't happen that way. The way you win is you 881 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 1: let go of that, you grieve what you didn't get, 882 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: and then you go find it in someone without trying 883 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,760 Speaker 1: to change them. So you're not trying to win anything. 884 00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,359 Speaker 1: It's already there. But another reason, another thing that happen 885 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,720 Speaker 1: is this couple comes to couple's therapy and the person says, 886 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: I'm not showing up because the other persons so controlling. 887 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 1: This person has tried to control everything. They're trying to 888 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: set every rule, they're trying to manage every aspect of 889 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: our lives, and there's no room for me and my 890 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: thoughts and how I want things to go. And when 891 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: I say I want this, they say, no, you're wrong, No, 892 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: it can't be that way. It's my way, this is 893 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 1: the way this is. I'm the healthy person, you're the 894 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: not healthy person. And that doesn't feel good either. 895 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:32,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, it requires so much self excavation to just see 896 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 2: whether we're being that person or we can often so 897 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 2: get lost in our holier than thou and kind of 898 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 2: this feeling of like, oh, I'm so emotionally mature and 899 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 2: I'm so self aware, and I'm doing the work and 900 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 2: I know the language, and all of a sudden, actually 901 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 2: we're we're being so evangelical that the person that we're 902 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 2: speaking to is kind of feeling like they have no 903 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,320 Speaker 2: say or no impact or no involvement. One of this 904 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 2: scenarios that came up in this conversation while we were 905 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:08,760 Speaker 2: preparing for this podcast was this couple. The woman earns 906 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 2: more than the man, and she doesn't have an issue 907 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,359 Speaker 2: with it. She's very comfortable with it. She didn't care, 908 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 2: she wasn't she that wasn't a big priority for it. It 909 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 2: wasn't a deal breaker for her. But it's really triggering 910 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 2: to him and he's uncomfortable with that. And so if 911 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,359 Speaker 2: the topic of money comes up or budgeting comes up, 912 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 2: he often tries to. Yeah, he gets very uncomfortable about it. 913 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 2: It can make him, can make him angry, it can 914 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 2: make him upset. She's trying to figure out how does 915 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 2: she help him become more confident and comfortable and happy 916 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 2: about who he is and not feel this pressure that 917 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 2: he feels potentially coming from his family or his upbringing 918 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:52,800 Speaker 2: as well. 919 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, this would be a great thing for them to 920 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: talk about in couple's therapy and really get it sort 921 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: of What does money represent to them? Does it represent 922 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: self esteem, acceptance, love, power, lack of power? Money represents 923 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 1: so many things. I think people when they talk about money, 924 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: if they talk about money in their relationships, it's such 925 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: a sensitive topic. They tend to talk about it on 926 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 1: the content level, like let's make a budget or why 927 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: did you spend money on that? Right, And they're not 928 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: really talking about how do we both feel about money? 929 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: What was money like in our households when we grew up. 930 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 1: What were the messages that we got around money. Some 931 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: people got really mixed messages. You know, money is good, 932 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: money is bad. We have money, we don't have money 933 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: value judgments. It's okay to spend money on this but 934 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 1: not on this, and so you bring all of that 935 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 1: into your relationship and then the gender roles of course, right, 936 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: So what does that represent? What kind of family did 937 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,439 Speaker 1: you grow up in in terms of how they thought 938 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,800 Speaker 1: about gender and power and money, and how that changes 939 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: with culture, with the kind of maybe egalitarian marriage that 940 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,919 Speaker 1: you want. Those are all conversations they need to have. Yeah, 941 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: not about let's sit down and make a budget, but 942 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,399 Speaker 1: about all the questions that I was just bringing up. 943 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 2: Those are such great questions and I know that for 944 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,120 Speaker 2: that they work because me and my wife have sat 945 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 2: down and looked at that through our marriage, and we've 946 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,399 Speaker 2: had so many questions about that because we both came 947 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 2: from very different financial setups and our relationship with money 948 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,200 Speaker 2: was very very different. I started working very very young, 949 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,920 Speaker 2: My wife started working while she was at college and 950 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 2: after and just as time grew in, our lifestyle change 951 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,480 Speaker 2: and things changed, there were so many conversations we had 952 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 2: to always reset as well. It wasn't just like, oh, 953 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 2: we've solved it now, we don't talk about money anymore, 954 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 2: and it's we've had to almost re evaluate and rethink 955 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 2: that topic so many times, depending on how many changes 956 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,280 Speaker 2: there are, but I find that those are the questions 957 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 2: that I find people avoiding, or when they do talk 958 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 2: about it, it's always a full blown argument. So it's 959 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,239 Speaker 2: like you said, it's either about budgeting if they talk 960 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 2: about it in a healthy way, or like at least 961 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 2: a practical way is probably a better word, or we 962 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 2: don't talk about it because you're like so scared to 963 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 2: mention it because when you do, it turns into a 964 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 2: full blown argument, and now we're arguing about not even money, 965 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 2: we're arguing about something else. I want to help people 966 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 2: have the tools to start difficult conversations with people in 967 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:22,800 Speaker 2: their life. It could be of mom, it could be 968 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 2: a dad, it could be you know. I feel like 969 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,920 Speaker 2: all of us avoid We avoid discomfort in our lives, 970 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,919 Speaker 2: and uncomfortable conversations are one of the biggest ones. Whether 971 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,800 Speaker 2: it's when you're firing someone, when you're giving feedback to someone, 972 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 2: when you're trying to be directed with someone, these are 973 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 2: such challenging things to do. How do we sit in 974 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:45,760 Speaker 2: the discomfort or how do we prepare for uncomfortable conversations 975 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:47,840 Speaker 2: to help them go better. 976 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: First of all, I think that people are worried that 977 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,919 Speaker 1: somehow they're being unkind by bringing something up that's uncomfortable. 978 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 1: The kindest thing you can do is to have a 979 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,840 Speaker 1: conversation with somebody that is real and genuine and authentic. 980 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,400 Speaker 1: I think that the first the way you start that 981 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: is you start it with yourself. So before you even 982 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: get to the other person, you want to be able 983 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 1: to say to them, to say to yourself, I'm being 984 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: really kind and I'm remembering their humanity, and I'm going 985 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,880 Speaker 1: to have this conversation in an open, generous, curious way. 986 00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,439 Speaker 1: So I'm not here to set my agenda necessarily. I'm 987 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: here to be curious about their experience so we together 988 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,200 Speaker 1: can come to some kind of understanding about each other 989 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 1: that we didn't have before. And I think that's the 990 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,839 Speaker 1: framework that you come into any hard conversation with. 991 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's almost like again comes back down to 992 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 2: what we're discussing it today is like framing a conversation. 993 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 2: I think we get so lost in like what are 994 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 2: we trying to solve? Yeah, and we're trying to be 995 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,319 Speaker 2: very logical, and actually it's like, well know, framing the 996 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 2: conversation in the emotion of understanding how people feel about 997 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,520 Speaker 2: things and where it come from and what this could 998 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 2: lead to is so much more important than actually solving 999 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:04,880 Speaker 2: the problem. 1000 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,359 Speaker 1: Right and knowing that this is going to be a 1001 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 1: dialogue not a monologue. I think then we're like, I 1002 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,880 Speaker 1: have something important to say, and you're going to deliver 1003 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,880 Speaker 1: whatever you're going to deliver to them. It's not a monologue. 1004 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,240 Speaker 1: It's not I'm coming to deliver something. It's I'm coming 1005 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 1: to bring up a topic, and I want to hear 1006 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,279 Speaker 1: where the other person is coming from, and you might 1007 00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,080 Speaker 1: want to ask them first, like, Hey, I know that 1008 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 1: money has been kind of stressful for us. Can we 1009 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,200 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about it. I'm curious to hear 1010 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:36,359 Speaker 1: more about what money is, what it means to you, 1011 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,360 Speaker 1: what it was like growing up. I want to share 1012 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: that with you, about what it means to me, what 1013 00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,359 Speaker 1: it was like for me growing up, and you could 1014 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,120 Speaker 1: have a really beautiful conversation. The other thing is, if 1015 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,880 Speaker 1: it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard to argue. 1016 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,560 Speaker 1: It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as 1017 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 1: you're having the conversation. It's so lovely. It opens people 1018 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 1: up to be more vulnerable. 1019 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,319 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I love this advice, and I really hope 1020 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,160 Speaker 2: everyoneho's listening to watching you're going to try and practice 1021 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 2: some of these. They're so subtle and there's such small insights, 1022 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,279 Speaker 2: but they make such a big difference because it can 1023 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 2: be a game changer when you approach the same conversation 1024 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 2: in a completely different way, and it can transform the 1025 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,400 Speaker 2: trajectory of your relationship with an individual because they have 1026 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,480 Speaker 2: so much more respect for how you handled it too. 1027 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,319 Speaker 1: And we just did a podcast episode with a mother 1028 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,560 Speaker 1: and daughter. They've been having the same fight for twenty 1029 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:35,279 Speaker 1: five years and they came on the podcast and we 1030 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,120 Speaker 1: have never talked about it this way. And it's not 1031 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: because we did something, you know, like unheard of. It 1032 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,520 Speaker 1: was just because they had never been taught to talk 1033 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,640 Speaker 1: about They've been having literally the same conversation or lack 1034 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,920 Speaker 1: of conversation when you know one person would shut the 1035 00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 1: other person out, usually the daughter shutting the mother out, 1036 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,839 Speaker 1: and they just never talked about it in this other way. 1037 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 1: And I think so many people think, oh, we have 1038 00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:02,319 Speaker 1: a problem and it's not fixable. Are so fixable. You 1039 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,080 Speaker 1: can heal a lot of things, maybe not in exactly 1040 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,200 Speaker 1: the way you want, but certainly to have more of 1041 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,320 Speaker 1: a relationship than you were ever than you ever thought possible. 1042 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:14,480 Speaker 2: All Right, I've got so many more for you. I 1043 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:15,719 Speaker 2: hope you're having fun, Laurie. 1044 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 1: And sure, yeah, I love talking about all this stuff. 1045 00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so it's so fascinating to just dive into, 1046 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:23,719 Speaker 2: you know, these real scenarios that all of you have 1047 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:24,759 Speaker 2: said in it. And I want to give a big 1048 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 2: thank you to everyone who on Instagram sent me all 1049 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,560 Speaker 2: of these incredible notes for this episode. There's a few 1050 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,320 Speaker 2: more here that I really want to get to. So Okay, 1051 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 2: this this one's a good one because it kind of 1052 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,840 Speaker 2: relates to something we discussed earlier, but it's it's a 1053 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,759 Speaker 2: more specific question on when in your mind do you 1054 00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:46,200 Speaker 2: know when you're settling or you're not settling? Well, how 1055 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:46,560 Speaker 2: do you know? 1056 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,000 Speaker 1: I think if you're asking yourself that question, that's that's 1057 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,600 Speaker 1: a really important sign. But I think you need to 1058 00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,280 Speaker 1: get clear. Is is this something culturally? Like the clture 1059 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,800 Speaker 1: has told me that I need to be with someone 1060 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,880 Speaker 1: like this, And whether that's like the greater culture or 1061 00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,200 Speaker 1: your specific culture that you grew up in or your 1062 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,920 Speaker 1: family culture, whose voice is it? I think that's really 1063 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,759 Speaker 1: important that as adults sometimes we can't tease out our 1064 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: own voice from the voices of people who raised us 1065 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,040 Speaker 1: or the culture. Even so, I think that's an important question. 1066 00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,239 Speaker 1: I also think the question is are they you know, 1067 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,439 Speaker 1: when we think about what compromises we have to make 1068 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,600 Speaker 1: with another person, we don't tend to think about what 1069 00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,040 Speaker 1: compromises somebody has to make to be with us, which 1070 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,239 Speaker 1: is a really important point. It's not like it's not like, 1071 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,839 Speaker 1: you know, I think people treat dating like shopping, like 1072 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,719 Speaker 1: I want this, I'm going to go find this, and 1073 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,560 Speaker 1: it's not like the clothes when you're shopping are to 1074 00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:51,920 Speaker 1: be like I don't think you're going to look good 1075 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,600 Speaker 1: in that, or I'd rather be with someone who looks differently, 1076 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,239 Speaker 1: like the clothes are not judging you, right. But the 1077 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,800 Speaker 1: thing is like when you're going into a relationship with 1078 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:02,759 Speaker 1: going back to the you know, we can't order up 1079 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,840 Speaker 1: people a la carte. They can't order up you a 1080 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,440 Speaker 1: la carte either, And we have this weird notion in 1081 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,360 Speaker 1: our culture that like love is loving all the annoying 1082 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: things about me too. No, people are not gonna they're 1083 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:18,040 Speaker 1: going to love you even though you have these annoying things. 1084 00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,680 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean, they're going to love the annoying things. 1085 00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:25,040 Speaker 1: So we have this weird idea that this unconditional love, 1086 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,279 Speaker 1: and it's just they misuse that term. So I think 1087 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,720 Speaker 1: we have to remember that as we are thinking about 1088 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:36,719 Speaker 1: this whole human being, this person is choosing us with 1089 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,239 Speaker 1: all of our annoying things, our quirks, are maybe our 1090 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 1: past that we haven't really worked through, that we're still 1091 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,400 Speaker 1: working through. And you know, we have this idea that 1092 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,280 Speaker 1: you know, I'm shopping for someone. You're not shopping for someone. 1093 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,520 Speaker 1: It's how do I feel with this person? That is 1094 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,960 Speaker 1: the most important question you can ask. How do I 1095 00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,240 Speaker 1: feel when I'm with this person? And if you feel 1096 00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,239 Speaker 1: you enjoy their company, you feel hurt? Or do you 1097 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:06,200 Speaker 1: feel understood? You feel safe? You you're having fun, You're 1098 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,560 Speaker 1: not settling. All the rest is just noise. 1099 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I really like those two really powerful points. 1100 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,480 Speaker 2: I think so many of our definitions of the perfect 1101 00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:20,680 Speaker 2: partner settling, you know, whatever it may be, comes from 1102 00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,759 Speaker 2: a societal parental impact. Yeah, and so what do my 1103 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:27,160 Speaker 2: friends think of him? Or what will now they react? Oh, no, 1104 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,239 Speaker 2: they're gonna know I'm settling. Did it? And it's like, well, no, 1105 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:34,200 Speaker 2: was that your definition of what a good partner was. 1106 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:36,520 Speaker 2: And the second point that you meant there that I 1107 00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,120 Speaker 2: love because I do it all the time. Whenever I'm 1108 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:40,879 Speaker 2: sitting there in my head and I'm thinking, God, I've 1109 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:42,920 Speaker 2: made so many sacrifices for my wife, I've done this 1110 00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 2: or that, I come up with a list of hers 1111 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,560 Speaker 2: in my head and I'm like, oh, she's made so many, 1112 00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:50,359 Speaker 2: Like it's such a great activity to do that. When 1113 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,000 Speaker 2: I think about I often ask people to zoom out 1114 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,359 Speaker 2: and say, you may think, like maybe someone sitting there 1115 00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,759 Speaker 2: going I do everything financially for a relationship, or I 1116 00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:03,440 Speaker 2: do everything physically for this relationship, like I get the groceries, 1117 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,560 Speaker 2: I do the house cleaning, whatever it may be. I 1118 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,319 Speaker 2: always ask people to zoom out and go look at 1119 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:12,799 Speaker 2: your life physically, financially, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. Okay, if 1120 00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 2: you're making all the sacrifices across all five of those, 1121 00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:19,040 Speaker 2: there's something really important to look at. But more often 1122 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,240 Speaker 2: than not, when people zoom out, they go, oh, actually, 1123 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,560 Speaker 2: you're right, Like I pick up the slack here and 1124 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,359 Speaker 2: they pick up the slack there, and there's a bit 1125 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:26,080 Speaker 2: of give and take. 1126 00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I would say, also one exercise to do 1127 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:34,040 Speaker 1: is describe the relationship from their perspective. Yeah, right, Like 1128 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,960 Speaker 1: what are they putting up with? Really? If they were 1129 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,480 Speaker 1: to really talk about, you know, the relationship from their perspective, 1130 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 1: there would be all these great things and there would 1131 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,279 Speaker 1: be all the sacrifices they're making too, And sometimes we 1132 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:46,279 Speaker 1: forget about. 1133 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:50,120 Speaker 2: That absolutely all right. I like this one. So there's 1134 00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:54,799 Speaker 2: this person who was let go from their job and 1135 00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:59,120 Speaker 2: decided that she may want to get into comedy because 1136 00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,600 Speaker 2: she always had a dream of being a comedian, but 1137 00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,360 Speaker 2: doesn't want to feel like she is taking a step 1138 00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,839 Speaker 2: back into the service industry in order to pursue her 1139 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,920 Speaker 2: goals that may be very far to reach. She has 1140 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,719 Speaker 2: some trouble with structure and facing the unknown of it all. 1141 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,200 Speaker 2: How do you suggest she structures herself and gives herself 1142 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:18,640 Speaker 2: tangible benchmarks. 1143 00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:21,560 Speaker 1: I think that people make this binary. I'm either going 1144 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,680 Speaker 1: to pursue my dream and give up everything else, or 1145 00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,800 Speaker 1: I'm not going to pursue my dream. And I always 1146 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 1: say to people, you can have two things going at once. 1147 00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,040 Speaker 1: It's a lot safer to say I'm going to try 1148 00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,399 Speaker 1: comedy and I'm going to put everything I have into it, 1149 00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,840 Speaker 1: but I'm also not going to maybe leave my job yet, 1150 00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,640 Speaker 1: and so I can see whether this really works for 1151 00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:46,919 Speaker 1: me or not before I give up this other thing, 1152 00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:48,960 Speaker 1: so it doesn't have to be so binary. 1153 00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that I think 1154 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,160 Speaker 2: too often we make that move too quick. Yeah. Well, 1155 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:56,680 Speaker 2: if someone comes up to me and goes, yeah, I just 1156 00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:58,920 Speaker 2: listen to your podcast and have decided to make this 1157 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,880 Speaker 2: big station of like, oh't think I said that, Like, 1158 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,799 Speaker 2: please don't do that. You know, that's definitely not what 1159 00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:08,040 Speaker 2: I'm encouraging. If anything, I'm encouraging this journey of learning 1160 00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:14,200 Speaker 2: about something you love first, experimenting, maybe interning, apprenticeships, shadowing, 1161 00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:16,920 Speaker 2: watch how the job's actually done. Like, I'm so much 1162 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:21,200 Speaker 2: more into an incremental approach to change as opposed to 1163 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,760 Speaker 2: thinking that this big all in approach is going to 1164 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:29,440 Speaker 2: suddenly deliver some miraculous reward. If anything, if you go slower, 1165 00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:31,560 Speaker 2: you learn more, and then when you do make the 1166 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,120 Speaker 2: big jump, it will actually more likely be more successful. 1167 00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:35,840 Speaker 1: That's right. And I think the other question to ask 1168 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:37,959 Speaker 1: is am I moving towards something or am I trying 1169 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:41,440 Speaker 1: to escape from something? Because sometimes people will just jump 1170 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,200 Speaker 1: into something very impulsively because they want to get out 1171 00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,960 Speaker 1: of their situation and they don't do well with uncertainty, 1172 00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,680 Speaker 1: because most people don't, so they want an answer. So 1173 00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,919 Speaker 1: they feel like, I can't just leave this other thing 1174 00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:53,600 Speaker 1: that I know is making me unhappy. I don't want 1175 00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:55,640 Speaker 1: to be a lawyer anymore. I don't want to do 1176 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,320 Speaker 1: this job anymore. But I don't know what else to do, 1177 00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,360 Speaker 1: So I'm going to do this other thing. But you're 1178 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,320 Speaker 1: not even sure you want to do the other thing yet, 1179 00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,720 Speaker 1: So are you? Are you escaping or are you moving toward? 1180 00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:08,480 Speaker 2: Yeah? Definitely, And I think when we're try to escape. 1181 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,120 Speaker 1: Too soon, yes, without thinking it through. 1182 00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:13,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's actually been one of the biggest things 1183 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:15,360 Speaker 2: that I've I've actually been talking about this a lot 1184 00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:17,480 Speaker 2: lately in it because I think it's impacted me so 1185 00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,600 Speaker 2: much in my life. And I was it's almost like, 1186 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,200 Speaker 2: if you don't like where you are, if you can 1187 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:28,200 Speaker 2: figure out a way to learn from it. And when 1188 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:29,960 Speaker 2: I say learn from it, I don't mean some magical 1189 00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,720 Speaker 2: life lesson. I mean like thinking about what are the 1190 00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,360 Speaker 2: practical lessons I could learn here? What are the things 1191 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,400 Speaker 2: I can get curious about? Sure, I don't like the setup. 1192 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,640 Speaker 2: I don't like my manager, but maybe there's something here 1193 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,280 Speaker 2: that's actually going to benefit me in the future all 1194 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:43,960 Speaker 2: of a sudden. I'm not saying that becomes the best 1195 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,240 Speaker 2: job you've ever had, but it doesn't feel as painful 1196 00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,720 Speaker 2: while you build the next step. Yes, whereas this desire 1197 00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,000 Speaker 2: to just rush out of pain or again pain is 1198 00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,320 Speaker 2: maybe a strong word, but rush out of a place 1199 00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,919 Speaker 2: that you want to escape from, you actually might fall 1200 00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:02,000 Speaker 2: into the same thing again in another way, which we 1201 00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:03,440 Speaker 2: again do in relationships as well. 1202 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,360 Speaker 1: We do that all the time. Somebody is like, I'm 1203 00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,520 Speaker 1: going to leave this relationship and then oh, but I 1204 00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,120 Speaker 1: fell in love with this other person. Maybe you do 1205 00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:14,720 Speaker 1: need to leave that relationship, But why don't you take 1206 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,640 Speaker 1: a beat? Why don't you see are you just going 1207 00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:19,720 Speaker 1: to another person You're going to repeat all the same 1208 00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,200 Speaker 1: things in this other relationship? Or do you want to 1209 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:26,160 Speaker 1: understand more about Do I understand what happened in this relationship, 1210 00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,040 Speaker 1: why it didn't work, and then now I can leave 1211 00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:30,960 Speaker 1: in a way that feels good. Or maybe I was 1212 00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,040 Speaker 1: wrong and maybe there actually was something great here, but 1213 00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:35,880 Speaker 1: there was a problem that I wasn't willing to face 1214 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:36,919 Speaker 1: in this relationship. 1215 00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to ask you this question because obviously 1216 00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,640 Speaker 2: we're talking today about your beautiful new journal that assists 1217 00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:45,520 Speaker 2: maybe you should talk to someone. Which is the book 1218 00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,600 Speaker 2: that I interviewed you about a couple of years ago, 1219 00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,160 Speaker 2: which is such a phenomenal book. It's helped so many people. 1220 00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,720 Speaker 2: How and why is journaling valuable to everything we're discussing today. 1221 00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,080 Speaker 1: I think that one of the things that happens when 1222 00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,320 Speaker 1: you journal is you go into this space that you 1223 00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,240 Speaker 1: don't go into to when you're not writing it down, 1224 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,920 Speaker 1: when you actually can see something. It's very different from 1225 01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,560 Speaker 1: thinking it. Our thoughts are fleeting, they just move around. 1226 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:12,440 Speaker 1: They're very disorganized. And the thing about journaling is no 1227 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,400 Speaker 1: one's judging it, no one's seeing it. It's just for you. 1228 01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:15,560 Speaker 2: You know. 1229 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:17,480 Speaker 1: I used to think it's funny because I put out 1230 01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:19,680 Speaker 1: this journal, But I used to not want to journal 1231 01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,120 Speaker 1: because I would think, Oh, it's a chore and I'm 1232 01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:23,760 Speaker 1: gonna have to sit down and it's going to have 1233 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:25,880 Speaker 1: what if, you know, I don't know what to say 1234 01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:28,880 Speaker 1: or I don't really have anything to say, and what 1235 01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,280 Speaker 1: The way that I've structured this journal is there's a 1236 01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,440 Speaker 1: prompt that comes from maybe you should talk to someone 1237 01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,200 Speaker 1: just to give you a little bit of structure, but 1238 01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,080 Speaker 1: it follows you through the fifty two weeks of the year, 1239 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,160 Speaker 1: like a therapy session. And we always say that the 1240 01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:43,720 Speaker 1: work of most of the work of therapy happens outside 1241 01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,400 Speaker 1: the therapy room. So people think I'm gonna come to therapy, 1242 01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:48,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have all these insights and that's my therapy. No, 1243 01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna If you don't use what you learn in 1244 01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,200 Speaker 1: therapy and you don't put it into action during the week, 1245 01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,640 Speaker 1: then the insight is useless. So someone might say, oh, 1246 01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:00,480 Speaker 1: I got into that fight with my partner again, and 1247 01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:03,120 Speaker 1: now I understand why. And I'll say, well, that's great, 1248 01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:06,360 Speaker 1: but did you do something different? Well no, but okay, 1249 01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:08,960 Speaker 1: well good first step understanding why, But now you need 1250 01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,880 Speaker 1: to do something different. So when you reflect every day 1251 01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,800 Speaker 1: during the week, then you say, what am I doing 1252 01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,120 Speaker 1: with this bit of insight? So the prompt will maybe 1253 01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:20,560 Speaker 1: inspire some kind of insight into your life, and then 1254 01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,320 Speaker 1: how do you noodle that around during the week and 1255 01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,680 Speaker 1: you can watch your progression because you've written it down. 1256 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,120 Speaker 1: And what I love about the doing a journal for 1257 01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,360 Speaker 1: a year is that you can look like three months 1258 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:33,440 Speaker 1: ago I thought this, but look how I'm handling this 1259 01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:37,760 Speaker 1: situation now, and it just takes five minutes. A lot 1260 01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:39,680 Speaker 1: of people will wake up in the morning in journal 1261 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,160 Speaker 1: just to clear their minds. Many of us will wake 1262 01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:43,480 Speaker 1: up in the first thing we do is we look 1263 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,120 Speaker 1: at our phones and already we're stressed, and already we're 1264 01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,160 Speaker 1: thinking about Oh I didn't do this, or I'm behind already. 1265 01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:51,360 Speaker 1: It's not a good way to start your day. I 1266 01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:55,240 Speaker 1: love taking five minutes in the morning to just write 1267 01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,880 Speaker 1: down so that then it's out there and I don't 1268 01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:01,240 Speaker 1: have to sit with it all day long. A lot 1269 01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,880 Speaker 1: of people also will do it right before bed, because 1270 01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,120 Speaker 1: you know how sometimes we'll just think all these thoughts 1271 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:07,760 Speaker 1: before bed and it keeps you up at night and 1272 01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,640 Speaker 1: you can't sleep. You journal before bed, and now you 1273 01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,480 Speaker 1: feel like, oh, I'm really I'm all cleared out. I 1274 01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:17,240 Speaker 1: feel good. So I think that journaling is really valuable, 1275 01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,680 Speaker 1: and I think it reminds me of something that we 1276 01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,360 Speaker 1: often say in relationships that it's easy to notice the 1277 01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:24,920 Speaker 1: person who gets angry in a relationship and harder to 1278 01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,160 Speaker 1: notice the person who smiles all the time. So when 1279 01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,200 Speaker 1: people say, like, oh, my partner's angry all the time, 1280 01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:34,520 Speaker 1: and it's like, well, because you're ignoring that person's holding 1281 01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:37,280 Speaker 1: the anger for both of you. If you journal, you 1282 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,000 Speaker 1: might notice if you're the person who smiles all the time, 1283 01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,440 Speaker 1: that maybe you have some anger too, or maybe you 1284 01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,439 Speaker 1: have trouble bringing something up. And if you're a really 1285 01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,320 Speaker 1: avoidant person, like the person who does smile all the time, 1286 01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:49,880 Speaker 1: it's a good thing to put it down in a 1287 01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,160 Speaker 1: journal because then you say, oh, wait, there are things 1288 01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:53,800 Speaker 1: that I want to bring up and let me figure 1289 01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:56,120 Speaker 1: out what to do with them. Or if you're the 1290 01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,680 Speaker 1: person who's angry and is holding the anger for both 1291 01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:01,000 Speaker 1: of you, you might start to know notice through journaling, 1292 01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:05,080 Speaker 1: I'm not it's not my job. Why am I angry 1293 01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,920 Speaker 1: all the time? This person is not willing to have 1294 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:11,280 Speaker 1: any of these conversations. This person stonewalling me. So you 1295 01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,360 Speaker 1: discover a lot about yourself and your patterns when you 1296 01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,720 Speaker 1: have this space that's you can be vulnerable in that 1297 01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:19,800 Speaker 1: no one's judging. 1298 01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:21,680 Speaker 2: To add to that, one of the things that I 1299 01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:25,240 Speaker 2: think that's so special about journaling is that it's so 1300 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,480 Speaker 2: much easier to measure physical change. So if you're trying 1301 01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:30,240 Speaker 2: to put on weight, lose weight, if you're trying to 1302 01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:32,840 Speaker 2: build a muscle, you know, whatever it may be, you 1303 01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:35,520 Speaker 2: can measure that and there's a number to it. And 1304 01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:37,920 Speaker 2: I found that for me, journaling has always been a 1305 01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,439 Speaker 2: great way of looking back a week ago, a month ago, 1306 01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,680 Speaker 2: a year ago, and going what was I thinking about then? 1307 01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:47,600 Speaker 2: Where was I in my headspace? What was I worried about? 1308 01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:49,919 Speaker 2: And often I've found when I've gone and done that, 1309 01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:53,000 Speaker 2: you can actually see growth, yes, in the same way 1310 01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,720 Speaker 2: as having like a marker. And if you're not journaling 1311 01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,120 Speaker 2: every day, you kind of don't know whether you're moving 1312 01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,520 Speaker 2: forward or backward because you don't have something to think about. 1313 01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,680 Speaker 2: You just have your feeling in the moment. Whereas when 1314 01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:05,480 Speaker 2: you look back and you think, wow, five years ago, 1315 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,200 Speaker 2: I can't leave. I used to worry about that exam 1316 01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:11,480 Speaker 2: or that interview, or that whatever it may have been. 1317 01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:13,760 Speaker 2: In noun like, I wouldn't be worried about that at all. 1318 01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:16,479 Speaker 2: Things have changed. Yeah, So to me, it's a great 1319 01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:19,400 Speaker 2: way of monitoring and measuring growth. 1320 01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:21,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that change is really hard. This 1321 01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,520 Speaker 1: is why New Year's resolutions tend not to work out 1322 01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:26,640 Speaker 1: for people a lot of the time. And you can 1323 01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,240 Speaker 1: see when you journal. I talk in the book maybe 1324 01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:32,320 Speaker 1: you should talk to someone about the stages of change, 1325 01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:36,040 Speaker 1: and you can see them happen. So pre contemplation is 1326 01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:39,240 Speaker 1: you don't even know that you're thinking about making a change. 1327 01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:41,560 Speaker 1: So that's when you're kind of in denial in your journal, like, 1328 01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:44,920 Speaker 1: oh no, this isn't really happening, and you see yourself 1329 01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,520 Speaker 1: kind of justify or rationalize things that you know just 1330 01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,600 Speaker 1: are not right. And then contemplation is you know you 1331 01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:52,720 Speaker 1: need to make a change, but you're not ready yet. 1332 01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,040 Speaker 1: So now you're getting more real with yourself. That's usually 1333 01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:57,720 Speaker 1: when people come to therapy at the contemplation, but you 1334 01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:00,640 Speaker 1: can see it in the journal. Oh now I'm really 1335 01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,520 Speaker 1: getting out of denial. And then there's preparation where you're 1336 01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,000 Speaker 1: sort of saying, how do I prepare to make this change? 1337 01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,200 Speaker 1: What steps do I need to take? Whether I want 1338 01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:10,200 Speaker 1: to leave this relationship or I want to get into 1339 01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:13,200 Speaker 1: a relationship and put myself out there more, or I 1340 01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:15,360 Speaker 1: want to you know, I want to go after some 1341 01:05:15,560 --> 01:05:18,280 Speaker 1: dream or I want to set a boundary, So how 1342 01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:21,360 Speaker 1: am I preparing for this? And then action is when 1343 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:25,480 Speaker 1: you actually make the change, But that's not the last step. 1344 01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,520 Speaker 1: The last step is maintenance, and that's the most important change. 1345 01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:31,000 Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean I have to maintain the change 1346 01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:34,080 Speaker 1: and be perfect. It means that I'm going to slip 1347 01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:36,800 Speaker 1: back like and shoot some ladders. Right, So it's like, 1348 01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:39,640 Speaker 1: yes I will. There'll be Oh I broke up with 1349 01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:41,800 Speaker 1: that person, but no, I called them. I didn't mean 1350 01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,800 Speaker 1: to call them. That doesn't mean you failed. That just 1351 01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,560 Speaker 1: means you're human. And so how can you show yourself 1352 01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:49,160 Speaker 1: and you can do this in your journal? How can 1353 01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:52,800 Speaker 1: you write something to yourself that's very compassionate but also 1354 01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:55,960 Speaker 1: holding yourself accountable. So and how you can look in 1355 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,560 Speaker 1: your journal about how do I talk to myself? You know, 1356 01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,040 Speaker 1: do I beat myself up all the time? Am I 1357 01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:05,760 Speaker 1: a bully to myself? Or can I be compassionate with myself? 1358 01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:09,360 Speaker 1: Because that will actually help me to be accountable. I 1359 01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,520 Speaker 1: can be more accountable when I'm kind to myself. So 1360 01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:13,160 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean oh, it's fine that you called him, 1361 01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:15,840 Speaker 1: You just get back in the relationship with him. It means, oh, 1362 01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:18,640 Speaker 1: you were feeling sad or you were feeling lonely, and 1363 01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:20,800 Speaker 1: you called him because you were lonely. But maybe next 1364 01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:23,360 Speaker 1: time I'll call a friend maybe next time I'll take 1365 01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,960 Speaker 1: a walk. Maybe next time I will go to this meeting. 1366 01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,080 Speaker 1: You know, whatever you need to do, And then you're 1367 01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:33,320 Speaker 1: really being compassionate, and you have in your journal kind 1368 01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:37,000 Speaker 1: of this friend that's really kind to yourself, that knows 1369 01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,200 Speaker 1: you really well, and that knows what you need to do. 1370 01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:41,080 Speaker 1: And it's right there on the page. 1371 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,640 Speaker 2: Such a great note about your journal, letting you know 1372 01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:48,880 Speaker 2: how you talk to yourself, the language you use you yourself, 1373 01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,280 Speaker 2: and helping you change that, because when it's on the page, 1374 01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:52,920 Speaker 2: you can cross it out, you can edit it, you 1375 01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,480 Speaker 2: can write a new version. When it's in your head, 1376 01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:58,120 Speaker 2: it just keeps repeating and you never get that moment 1377 01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:02,160 Speaker 2: to edit it or to filter it. Laurie, you've been 1378 01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:03,480 Speaker 2: so kind with the time today. I want to ask 1379 01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,080 Speaker 2: you one last thing, and it's about what you just 1380 01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,720 Speaker 2: mentioned then, and I think it's breakups, and it's you know, 1381 01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:11,520 Speaker 2: I still find until this day that breakups seem to 1382 01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:16,960 Speaker 2: be the hardest relationship transition that people tend to go through, 1383 01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:20,520 Speaker 2: maybe apart from grief or maybe even similar. And I'd 1384 01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:23,280 Speaker 2: love your thoughts on that. But because it is a 1385 01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,400 Speaker 2: kind of loss, I think that people feel there was 1386 01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,640 Speaker 2: one person from the audience that we were connected with 1387 01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:33,880 Speaker 2: that had a breakup, and they really they were together 1388 01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:35,440 Speaker 2: with this person for two years. They really thought this 1389 01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:37,760 Speaker 2: to the person that they were going to spend their 1390 01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:40,080 Speaker 2: life with. They really thought this was going in that direction. 1391 01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:45,360 Speaker 2: They felt that they actually had good compatibility, they were 1392 01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,560 Speaker 2: good at talking about things. But then what felt like 1393 01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:51,800 Speaker 2: out of the blue to this person, They just felt 1394 01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:54,000 Speaker 2: that this person was like, I don't think this is 1395 01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:58,040 Speaker 2: going in that direction anymore, and then things withered away quickly. 1396 01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:00,800 Speaker 2: It's hard when you kind of you know, and this 1397 01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:02,480 Speaker 2: is probably what you get all the time. People don't 1398 01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:05,240 Speaker 2: feel a sense of closure. They don't really understand. The 1399 01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:08,000 Speaker 2: other person's not doing a good job explaining it and 1400 01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:10,520 Speaker 2: doesn't want to or doesn't have the time. What are 1401 01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:12,520 Speaker 2: some of the steps that we need to take when 1402 01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:16,479 Speaker 2: we're kind of lost in that no person's land of thought, 1403 01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:18,439 Speaker 2: I had something, it doesn't exist anymore. 1404 01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,840 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, loss is exactly it's grief, and 1405 01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,080 Speaker 1: people go through the stages of grief, and the stages 1406 01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:27,760 Speaker 1: of grief are not sequential, so they're actually meant for 1407 01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:32,280 Speaker 1: people who are experiencing terminal illness, denial, anger, bargaining depression acceptance, 1408 01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:36,519 Speaker 1: but they're very apt, I think for any kind of loss. 1409 01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:39,200 Speaker 1: And when you talk about a breakup, there can be 1410 01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:42,240 Speaker 1: denial like oh, you don't really mean that we really 1411 01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:45,479 Speaker 1: are compatible, and you try to talk the other person 1412 01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:51,160 Speaker 1: into maybe seeing the light that they can't see. You know. 1413 01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:53,479 Speaker 1: The anger is how could you have led me on 1414 01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:57,320 Speaker 1: for this amount of time? You're such a terrible person. 1415 01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,320 Speaker 1: You wasted all my time. You were lying to me 1416 01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:02,479 Speaker 1: this whole time when the person wasn't They probably truly 1417 01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:05,880 Speaker 1: you know, thought this was going somewhere, you know. The 1418 01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:08,479 Speaker 1: bargaining is, well, what if you know you know, and 1419 01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:11,000 Speaker 1: the person tells you maybe why they're breaking up with you, 1420 01:09:11,080 --> 01:09:13,720 Speaker 1: like I don't think that we're compatible in this way, 1421 01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:15,680 Speaker 1: and then you try to become the thing, you know, 1422 01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,000 Speaker 1: like what if I did this, or I can be 1423 01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:20,880 Speaker 1: more of this, or we can do this, and they're like, no, 1424 01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:24,800 Speaker 1: that's not really the way this will get solved. 1425 01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:25,160 Speaker 2: You know. 1426 01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:28,000 Speaker 1: Depression, which is just the whole I mean, it's so 1427 01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:30,960 Speaker 1: because I think what people don't realize is it's not 1428 01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,200 Speaker 1: what you're losing just in the moment. It's you're losing 1429 01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:39,080 Speaker 1: the future that you had imagined. So you lose the past. 1430 01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,479 Speaker 1: You lose like all the whatever amount of time you 1431 01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:45,360 Speaker 1: spent with that person. You built a life with this person, 1432 01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:48,960 Speaker 1: and it's the dailiness. There's an intimacy to that dailiness. 1433 01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:52,400 Speaker 1: There's a comfort, there's a safety of this person knows 1434 01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:55,080 Speaker 1: all these little quirks about me. You know, we have 1435 01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,519 Speaker 1: all these inside jokes, We have a shorthand you know, 1436 01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:02,160 Speaker 1: this person asks how my day is. I know. It's 1437 01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,400 Speaker 1: the dailiness of being with someone. So you lose that. 1438 01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:08,320 Speaker 1: It's very lonely. But then you also lose the future. 1439 01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:10,960 Speaker 1: You had built up a whole story about what your 1440 01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:14,360 Speaker 1: lives were going to be like in a year, five years, 1441 01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:18,280 Speaker 1: ten years, twenty years gone, and you have nothing to 1442 01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:20,320 Speaker 1: replace it with right now because you don't know what 1443 01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:23,000 Speaker 1: it's going to look like yet. So the grief is real, 1444 01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:24,840 Speaker 1: and I think people try to downplay it. They're like, 1445 01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:26,880 Speaker 1: why are you so sad about this? He was a 1446 01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:29,040 Speaker 1: jerk or she was a jerk or whatever. It's like, 1447 01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:32,320 Speaker 1: I'm sad because I lost something very important to me. 1448 01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:35,400 Speaker 1: And your friends need to realize that instead of just 1449 01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:38,840 Speaker 1: demonizing the other person, they need to realize, like you 1450 01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:42,519 Speaker 1: lost something really valuable in your daily life, in the present, 1451 01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:45,439 Speaker 1: in the future, part of your past. All of that 1452 01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:48,200 Speaker 1: is gone now, so that's really hard. I think the 1453 01:10:48,240 --> 01:10:50,920 Speaker 1: other part of them dealing with the grief is letting 1454 01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:54,439 Speaker 1: yourself feel it, because it's real, no matter what people 1455 01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:57,680 Speaker 1: tell you, it's real. And the other part is the 1456 01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:00,800 Speaker 1: story that you're telling yourself about it is really important. 1457 01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:02,760 Speaker 1: So you might be telling yourself a story of the 1458 01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,679 Speaker 1: other person's terrible that might feel good in the moment. 1459 01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,360 Speaker 1: It might be something like I'm bad, you know, like 1460 01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:11,200 Speaker 1: I'm not good enough. If I were only something else, 1461 01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:14,120 Speaker 1: this person would love me more. I'm not lovable, or 1462 01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:17,320 Speaker 1: I'll never find anyone. Right, Those are not helpful stories 1463 01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:20,360 Speaker 1: because it's not true. It's you were not compatible with 1464 01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,120 Speaker 1: this person for whatever reason, even though you thought you were. 1465 01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:25,800 Speaker 1: If the other person doesn't feel you're the right person 1466 01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:30,519 Speaker 1: for them, you're automatically incompatible, right. You can't make it 1467 01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:34,000 Speaker 1: so that well, they just don't see it. So we 1468 01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:36,640 Speaker 1: aren't compatible because the other person doesn't want to be 1469 01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:39,880 Speaker 1: with me. So many times i'll hear you know someone 1470 01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:42,559 Speaker 1: even without a breakup, like someone will be dating someone 1471 01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:46,920 Speaker 1: and the person isn't really invested in the relationship, maybe 1472 01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:48,800 Speaker 1: in the way that they would like them to, and 1473 01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:50,800 Speaker 1: the person sitting on my couch will state, but we're 1474 01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:53,400 Speaker 1: so compatible, we're so perfect for each other. That person 1475 01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:56,000 Speaker 1: just has intimacy issues and I could just change them. 1476 01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:58,439 Speaker 1: Even if the breakup was about you think the person 1477 01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:01,439 Speaker 1: had intimacy issues, doesn't really matter. The point is they 1478 01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:04,480 Speaker 1: aren't able to be with you. So you are not compatible. 1479 01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:07,880 Speaker 1: And so that is I think very comforting to know, 1480 01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:11,080 Speaker 1: like we are just not compatible, even though it hurts 1481 01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:13,240 Speaker 1: a lot. We're not compatible, and I have to sit 1482 01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:16,320 Speaker 1: with the pain of I need to know that we 1483 01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:19,320 Speaker 1: were not compatible and that's not going to jade me 1484 01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:23,240 Speaker 1: in other relationships, and I think that's the important thing. 1485 01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:25,320 Speaker 1: So many times we get into a new relationship after 1486 01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,479 Speaker 1: that and we punish the new person for something the 1487 01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:32,160 Speaker 1: old person did, right like the old the old person 1488 01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:34,800 Speaker 1: wasn't truthful with me. So I'm gonna like check your 1489 01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:38,719 Speaker 1: phone all the time. No, don't, don't like put someone 1490 01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:42,040 Speaker 1: in jail for a crime they didn't commit. So you 1491 01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,240 Speaker 1: got to really like know what are the wounds from 1492 01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:47,760 Speaker 1: this relationship? What am I learning from this? What does 1493 01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:50,519 Speaker 1: this teach me? About me, about the other person, and 1494 01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:53,600 Speaker 1: then how do I move into a new relationship with 1495 01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:58,759 Speaker 1: hope and with caution and holding both hope and caution. 1496 01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:01,160 Speaker 2: Fantastic. The reason why I love talking to you about 1497 01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:03,759 Speaker 2: this is you're doing this all the time, whether it's 1498 01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:06,320 Speaker 2: in your private practice, whether it's on Dear Therapist, or 1499 01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:08,400 Speaker 2: whether it's through your books. And if you've been listening 1500 01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:10,519 Speaker 2: or watching today, everyone, I hope that you go and 1501 01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:13,679 Speaker 2: grab a copy of Maybe you Should Talk to Someone, 1502 01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:17,679 Speaker 2: The journal fifty two Weekly Sessions to Transform Your Life 1503 01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,400 Speaker 2: by Lori Gottlieb, And as I said, you can subscribe 1504 01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:23,080 Speaker 2: to her podcast, and if you haven't read Maybe you 1505 01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:25,599 Speaker 2: Should Talk to Someone, make sure you go and grab 1506 01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:27,880 Speaker 2: that book as well. Laurie, thank you so much for 1507 01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:30,519 Speaker 2: joining us on on purpose, Oh my pleasure. We got 1508 01:13:30,560 --> 01:13:32,880 Speaker 2: to spend this time together today and answer some of 1509 01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:36,639 Speaker 2: our audiences, questions and challenges. And I'm hoping that all 1510 01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:39,240 Speaker 2: of you who had yours answered, or maybe even if 1511 01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:41,160 Speaker 2: you didn't send something in, but you felt heard and 1512 01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:44,519 Speaker 2: you felt seen and you felt understood, because so much 1513 01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:46,920 Speaker 2: of what we're all going through is so intertwined. And 1514 01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,639 Speaker 2: so thank you to everyone who is brave enough, courageous 1515 01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:51,800 Speaker 2: enough to share your stories and Lourie, thank you for 1516 01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:53,480 Speaker 2: answering them so expertly. 1517 01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:55,320 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I always 1518 01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:56,680 Speaker 1: love having these conversations with you. 1519 01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,840 Speaker 2: Thank you, Laurie. If you love this episode, you'll love 1520 01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:04,320 Speaker 2: my interview with doctor Gable Matte on understanding your trauma 1521 01:14:04,760 --> 01:14:08,080 Speaker 2: and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on 1522 01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:11,360 Speaker 2: from the past. Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. 1523 01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:14,040 Speaker 2: So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, 1524 01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:16,840 Speaker 2: does it. It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.