WEBVTT - #443 Jason Flom with Mario Casciaro 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.920 On December twentieth, two thousand and two, seventeen year old 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:10.000 Brian Carrock was last seen at the Johnsburg, Illinois supermarket where. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.000 He worked as a stockboy. 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.960 The following day, he was reported missing, and then the 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.320 police found blood spatter near a produce schooler at the store, 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.759 followed by a bloody fingerprint on the door handle. DNA 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:27.440 testing revealed two profiles, Brian Carrick and another stockboy named 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.560 Rob Render, who had already quit his job at Skipped Town, 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:35.720 while Brian or his body were never found. However, according 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:38.960 to the police, Bryan's disappearance was much more complicated than 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:43.360 it appeared. They believed that another stock boy named Mario Kusharo, 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:47.159 whose family owned the supermarket, had orchestrated an incident that 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:51.360 led to Brian's death, while Rob Render and another stockboy 0:00:51.760 --> 0:01:06.880 were just following orders. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:11.920 back to wrongful conviction. I am so excited today because 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:15.839 this story is a story I've been wanting to tell 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:20.000 ever since I met the man who lived it, Mario Kasharo. 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:24.400 And Mario's case is unique in so many ways. He's 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:27.960 the only person in the history of the Great State 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:32.800 of Illinois, to be convicted of murder without a body 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.319 being found, with the exception of two guys you've probably 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.319 heard of and probably wish you hadn't, John Wayne Gacy 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.600 and Jeffrey Dahmer. And to make matters even worse and 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:49.920 stranger and more mind boggling, Mario was convicted of a 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:52.840 crime you've probably never heard of. I'd never heard of it. 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:57.680 It's called murder by intimidation. So, without further ado, please 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.320 join me in welcoming my great friend and personally hero, 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.000 Mario Cacio. Mario, welcome to wrongful Conviction. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.760 Thank you so much for having me on this wonderful show. 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:11.360 So this story, I mean, you were nineteen years old 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.120 when this happened, but I want to go back even 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.679 farther than that. And it's crazy too because this is 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.839 a family story, because the alleged crime took place at 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:24.600 the supermarket you worked at that was owned by your family. 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.440 But let's rewind what was the previous eighteen years of 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.639 your life like before we get up to the faithful 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:35.799 occurrence that is the center of this story. 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.600 I would say, to summarize it short, would be a blessing. 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.880 My parents are the American dream my mother and father 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.680 emigrated from Italy Southern Italy. My dad found a job 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.600 as a janitor at a union company, worked there for 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.760 thirty six years and retired as union stewart and the 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:57.040 highest in command of a company that had twelve thousand employees. 0:02:57.440 --> 0:03:01.079 And then he was too young to retire but too 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.119 old to start over, so he invested with some other 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.320 family members to start a grocery store in the far 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.120 northwest suburbs of Chicago. So we moved out to this 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.519 small little town called Johnsburg, Illinois, and my parents started 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.280 a supermarket because it was always my dad's dream to 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:18.359 own a business. 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.799 Johnsburg, Illinois has a population of less than sixty four 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.600 hundred people, so most of the people whose names pop 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.000 up in this story were all acquainted with each other 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.200 from either high school just around town, or from working 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:33.800 at vals to Cushao's grocery store, including a few of 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:38.120 the stock boys, Alan Leppert, Shane Lamb, Robert Render, and 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.560 then the victim in this case, a close friend of Mario's, 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:42.480 Brian Carrick. 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:47.760 Brian was one of fourteen children, nine of which worked 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:50.720 for my family's grocery store at one time or another, 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:55.320 so it was a family tradition for the Carrick children 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.320 to work at VAL's while they were in high school 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.160 until they went off to college or the army or 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.480 whatever endeavors they had in their life. So we're pretty 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.560 close because they lived also directly across the street from 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:08.360 the store. 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:09.800 On the only main road in town. 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:16.320 Sounds like Smallville, USA. Pretty much everybody knows everybody. I've 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.480 like mister Rogers visions in my head, but okay, this 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.880 is the Actually it turns into the opposite of that. 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:27.080 So on December twenty first, two thousand and two, Brian Carrick, 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.920 who was seventeen at the time. Another stock boy at 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:34.040 VAL's Foods right Darren Johnsburg, Illinois, was reported missing by 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.200 his mother, and the police determined that one of the 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.039 last times he had been seen was the previous day, 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.240 December twentieth, when he went to the store to pick 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:46.760 up his paycheck, and then two days after that, the 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:50.159 twenty second, the cops found blood spatter near a cooler 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.800 that was used to store produce and a bloody fingerprint 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.680 on the cooler's exterior door handle. Now DNA tests identified 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.680 the blood spatter and the cooler as belonging to Bryan Carrick. 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.360 The fingerprint and the blood the print was in that 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.279 was on the cooler door handle or identified by DNA 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:11.040 testing as belonging to Robert Render, who was another stock 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:15.400 boy at Valves. As we've discussed, and witnesses told police 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.520 that Render was president at the store on December twentieth, 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:23.200 he quit his job, interestingly on December twenty second and 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.440 dropped out of sight. You don't need to be Colombo 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.520 to start to wonder what was going on there. But okay, now, 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:30.960 other stock boys who were present on the day that 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.680 Carrick was last seen, included you. The crime went unsolved 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.560 for several years, and this poor kid, Krrick, his body 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.479 was never found. Do we know or do we have 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:44.600 a strong theory about what actually happened to Brian And 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.320 how did Render convince them not to pursue him. 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.479 It's a great question that's largely gone unanswered. The lion's 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:55.400 share of the physical evidence indicated his involvement in this case, 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.640 from fingerprints to DNA evidence. The victim's blood is on 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:01.320 the top of his shoes that he was wearing the 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.440 night of the crime. Everything that's undisputed links him to 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:09.760 the case. Looking backward years later after civil depositions with 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.560 the police department, and their defense always was that he 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.719 wasn't a very big guy, and of course our defense 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.120 was that if you're stabbing somebody, you don't have to 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:22.960 be a big guy. And Brian Carrick and Rob Render 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:24.719 were approximately. 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:24.760 The same size. 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.200 I would say Rob was just a little bigger than Brian, 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.400 but for some reason, because I was a taller person, 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.279 their opinion was that I was more capable of committing 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:33.800 this crime. 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.560 You're not a big guy, You're a slender guy. Will 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:38.120 use skinny guy back then too. 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.360 Yeah, I was about one hundred and forty five pounds 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.359 one fifty maybe tops six', one SO i was a, 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:46.560 skinny tall. 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:51.000 Guy six years After brian characters, Appeared Rob render was finally, 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:55.080 charged but only with concealing a homicide and not. Homicide, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.680 however during the interim years the case went. Cold in 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:00.360 life moved. 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.800 On, YEAH i graduated college and then me and my 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.720 dad and my brother opened a supermarket on our own 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.520 because the previous supermarket In johnsburg had more family members in, 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.280 it and families were, growing so we decided to open 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:16.800 our own supermarket and it was wildly. 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:17.520 Successful. 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.720 Well mario's life was going. Great an old high school, 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:23.000 Acquaintance Alan, lippert was not doing as. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.160 Well now at this, TIME i hadn't Seen Alan lippert 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:30.400 since probably junior senior year of high, school so four 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:32.520 or five years had gone. BY i went off to. 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:35.280 College he dropped out of high school and got really 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.120 heavy into. Drugs he had just been released from prison 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.200 and then gotten himself in some. Trouble he had drugs 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.280 on him and he was looking at going back to 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:47.160 prison FOR i think somewhere between two and four. Years 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.880 and that is the beginning of what we call the 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:54.480 dream confession in our, case Because Alan lippert claimed that 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.560 he was sitting at his house one day at two 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:00.240 o'clock or three o'clock in the, morning and then my 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.120 car pulled into his driveway AND i told him THAT 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.160 i needed to confess THAT i was involved in the 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:07.880 murder Of Brian. 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.280 Carrick according To, lippert in the fall of two thousand and, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.960 Six mario confessed that he had told one of the 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.720 Larger stock boys Named Shane lamb to Intimidate brian for 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:22.080 reasons related to drug, trafficking and quote things got out 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:26.760 of hand end. Quote, Additionally lippert said That brian's body 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:30.880 had been buried, locally but Then mario allegedly called his 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:36.559 cousins From chicago to, exuom, dismember and relocate the body 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:37.320 to a river In. 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:42.000 Iowa the local police department At Alan lippert come into 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.880 my grocery store wearing a wire AND i hadn't seen 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.719 him in, years and he started asking me How i've, 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.600 been how's my, family stuff like, that and then he's, 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.079 like do you remember that night that you stopped over 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.440 at my? House AND i was, like what are you talking? 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:01.520 ABOUT i didn't EVEN i haven't seen you in a. 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:03.280 While and it was really awkward. 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:08.240 Conversation at this, Point mario was still completely unaware that 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:10.679 he was a suspect in this cold. Case until the 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:11.520 grand jury was. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.880 CONVENED i was told that they had a lead in 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:19.120 the case and they needed help establishing. Timelines and THEN 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.160 i was brought into the grand jury AND i walked 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.120 in without an attorney BECAUSE i didn't THINK i needed. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.480 ONE i didn't do anything, wrong and of course there's 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:30.760 three prosecutors cross examining you for over an. Hour every 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.959 question is how did you Kill? Brian, Carrick where did 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.360 you put the murder? Weapon where did you put his? 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.360 Body why did you kill? Him And i'm just, answering, no, no, 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.320 No i'm not involved in any of, this SO i 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:42.920 keep saying. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.200 No mario still had no idea That lippert was the, 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:48.960 Source so after the grand, Jury lippert wired up a 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:52.480 few more, times and according To McHenry county Prosecutors Michael 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.640 combs And Patrick, Knneely mario's grand jury testimony differed from 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.000 the recordings With Alan, lippert and they charged him with 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:03.080 nine counts of Per but something about the investigation piqued 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.120 the interest of THE, fbi who Interviewed lippert about that 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:07.679 fall night in two thousand and. 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.800 Six THE fbi gave him a polygraph test and he failed, 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:16.199 miserably and then when they asked him why he, failed 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.240 he said it very well may have been a, dream 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:23.480 and that he was drinking alcohol all day in excess 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.560 of a case of beer in multiple, shots and that 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.920 he was also high on mushrooms and he wasn't sure 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.560 IF i really came to his house or. 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:37.280 Not that was their, witness which might explain why the 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.319 prosecutors were forced to drop seven of the nine counts 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:42.880 before trial In august of two thousand. 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.000 And, nine we were so confident in that they didn't 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.000 have any. Evidence we actually paid an expert audio person 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.280 to make the tapes more so you could hear them 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.840 better once you removed all the background. Noise you just 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.760 hear me asking him what the hell he's talking? About 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:00.640 and why are you asking me? That what are you talking? 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:02.679 About and then he tried to change the subject and 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.400 then ultimately left the store after his attempt to frame 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.760 me for a. Crime and then after we played it 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.120 for the state's, attorney that's when they dismissed the. Counts 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:13.920 but then, they of course they went to the media 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.880 and said it was. Inaudible but, Yeah so then we 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.839 proceeded the two counts that were remaining and we did 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.840 a bench trial in front Of Sharon prater in Mckenry. 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.840 County and up until this, point a bench trials not 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.080 a lot of people usually elect those on a serious 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.800 criminal defense. Case but ultimately we felt that they had 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:38.120 absolutely no evidence because they did not have any. Corroboration 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.679 they had the testimony of a three time felon that 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:44.600 was looking to get out of an unrelated. Case that's 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:46.880 saying that he isn't sure if it was a dream or, 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.520 not and that he was on mushrooms and drink a 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:53.680 case of. Beer that's the only evidence they, had so 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.079 she dismissed. It she did a directed verdict. 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:56.520 Acquittal. 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:59.200 Wow NOW i have to, ask did you think that 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.720 after That i'm not guilty, verdict that this was finally 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:03.680 over and you can put it behind. 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:04.960 YOU i, did AND i. 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.880 DIDN'T i didn't because of the reaction of the. Prosecutor 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.560 he slammed his hands on his, table and then when 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.160 we were walking, out he, said this isn't. 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:14.400 Over. 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:20.600 Wow and then three months go by AND i am 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:22.640 pulling out of the parking lot of the store AND 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:26.640 i get boxed in by white. Expeditions they are, screaming 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:28.600 get out of the, car get on the, ground get 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.440 on the. Ground i'm laying on my, stomach handcuffed behind 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:35.120 my back and shotguns drawn to my head and one 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.480 of the police officers tells me you have been charged with. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:50.760 Murder wrongful conviction has always given voice to innocent people in. 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:54.920 Prison now we're expanding that voice to. You call us 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.360 at eight three three TWO o seven four six sixty 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:00.760 six and leave us a message tell us how these, 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:06.599 powerful often tragic stories make you feel, outraged, inspired. Motivated 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.600 we want to. Know we may even include your story 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.800 in a future. Episode call US a three, three, TWO 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:14.280 o seven four six SIX. 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:23.560 X so it all stemmed From Shane. Lamb he had 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.080 just been released from prison on an unrelated drug. Case 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.000 they set him up on an operation Called Operation Lamb 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.760 Chop believe Or. Not they got an undercover to ask 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.679 him if he could find some, cocaine and when he 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.440 was broke and just got out of, prison he agreed 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.760 to selling, cocaine and then the undercover had him meet 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.320 them in a high school parking. Lot, so now you 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.680 have a person that's on parole for Two CLASS x 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:52.040 felonies and he's looking at like fourteen years in The 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.520 Illinois department Of. Corrections so now they put an unsurmountable 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.360 amount of pressure on. Him and they, said, well here 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.720 is the testimony of All lippert And lamb and the 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.520 prosecutor met and they had concocted a. 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.439 Story Shane lamb was granted full immunity for his, cooperation 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.680 and In february twenty, ten they Arrested mario on Six 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.040 velly murder counts as well as concealing a. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.280 HOMICIDE i think they just threw anything they could at 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:22.200 the wall and saw what. Stuck this isn't a office 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.400 that's known for being very. Ethical So BRIAN. T, landers 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.760 who represented, me he previously was a state's attorney In 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.000 Cook county and then went to become a judge In 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.280 DuPage county and then came off the bench and took my. 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.560 Case lander quickly poked holes In lamb's, story who alleged 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:43.960 that he And karak sold weed From mario and that 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.480 he Was mario's alleged, muscle standing at six foot and 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.840 two hundred and forty. Pounds lamb alleged That mario called 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:53.800 him into the store to Intimidate karrick and collect from 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:54.800 him on the day he. 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:59.880 Disappeared lamb's biggest quote was that If mario didn't, call 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.320 THEN i wouldn't have been. There so what we did 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.320 is we Got lamb's phone record in my phone, records 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:07.640 and of course there's no phone calls between me And 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.160 lamb at. All in, fact there's no phone calls for 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.640 me to anybody during the time that they think this murder, 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.840 happened and that gave him a. 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.200 Stump the prosecutors dropped five of the seven, charges but 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.000 they moved forward with two felony murder counts by unlawful 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:26.080 restraint and by. Intimidation and the indictment read That mario 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.960 quote or one for whom he was legally accountable while 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.640 committing the forcible felony of, intimidation Struck karc in the, 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.080 head causing his death end. Quote so they brought this 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.960 case that was predicated on statements that had been impeached before. Trial, 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.520 now since the defense didn't feel like the burden of 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.240 proof was, met the strategy was to focus on cross. 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.720 Examination they pointed out That lamb was lying about any 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.280 phone calls that brought him to the, store but nonetheless 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.200 he maintained that he was there in the cooler Under 0:15:56.240 --> 0:16:00.520 mario's direction and Punched karak in the. Face lamb, said, 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.520 QUOTE i THOUGHT i knocked him. OUT i knock out 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.640 a lot of. People mario grabbed me and said get 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:07.840 out of. Here end. 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:13.320 Quote my attorney Got Shane lamb on cross examination to 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.480 say that he'll say whatever he's got to say to 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.120 not go to, prison and he, said even lying about 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:21.640 a murder, case and then he said, yes and then 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:22.640 we were, like no further. 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:27.280 Questions the state trotted Out Alan lippert again to talk 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:31.800 about his alcohol and mushroom fueled fever. Dream this time he, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.640 added though That mario had told him that, Quote shane Hit, 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.800 carrick but it was an accident end, quote again using 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:43.560 the info from THE fbi. Interview mario's attorney shredded him 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.120 on cross. Examination, now had they put on a defense 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:50.120 beyond cross, examination Calling Rob render may have been a winning. 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.280 Strategy the state put him on the witness list and 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.160 we prepared for the cross, examination and then they just 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:56.720 didn't call. 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.960 Him, however the state did present a crime lab technician 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.200 to talk about the blood evidence that Implicated Rob. 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:05.840 Render when we had the state crime lab expert on the, 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:09.560 stand my lawyers started asking, Him, okay you guys took 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.480 how many? Swabs and he, said we TOOK i think 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.120 it was like thirty. Six and then he, said, well 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:17.399 are you sure it's not eighteen BECAUSE i only have 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:19.919 eighteen that were, tested and he, said, no we took thirty, 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:21.600 six but we didn't have all of them. 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.040 Tested this meant that there was new evidence available that 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:29.600 would further solidify renders. Guilt but Remember mario's charges were 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:33.000 not about, violence but about who orchestrated the incident that 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:37.120 resulted in. Violence and after two days of, deliberation eleven 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.119 of the twelve jurors believed the state's narrative about drug 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:44.120 dealing and musclemn and That mario was in fact guilty 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:44.879 of murder by. 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.200 Intimidation we thought that there was maybe one hold out 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.760 that wanted to, convict and it was eleven to one 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.680 the other. WAY i, mean they didn't have anything that 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:55.840 put me in. It they didn't have a, motive an, 0:17:55.840 --> 0:18:00.560 opportunity any physical. Evidence it was not a situation WHERE 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:02.000 i was Thinking. 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.280 I'm going to be, Convicted so what DO i? Know? 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.720 Though you know a lot more. NOW i, mean by the, 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.439 way whoever that one person, IS i hope they're listening right, 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.239 now because life slaver and for everyone's. Listening when you 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.600 serve on a, jury be that, one you know WHAT i, 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:19.160 mean stand. Up it's, inconvenient it can be, scary, intimidating 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.000 it could take more of your. Time you're not going 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:24.359 to get home as quickly to your family and the 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.280 things that you. Love but you know what that person 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.760 at least temporarily Saved mario's. Life so here we go 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:32.840 to the third. 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.400 Trial different, jury but we had actually more evidence that 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:37.919 was helpful to. 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.000 Me this, Time mario's team was going to mount a 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:45.800 robust defense beyond cross. Examination first the remaining blood. 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:50.040 Evidence the very first motion that we filed was to 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:54.160 have all of the blood evidence examined by the state crime. 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.480 Lab so those came, back and more of them Were 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.560 render Than. Carrick so it's not like he had a 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:02.440 little bit of blood at the crime. Scene he's got 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:04.800 blood all over the place at the crime. Scene and 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:08.080 the experts that looked at the photographs of the crime, 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.960 scene they think it was a stabbing and they think 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.240 That render cut himself with the, knife which is why 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.320 there's multiple places. 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.359 Where his blood is actually meshed With. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.360 Carricks so the sample had both of their blood on one. 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.640 Sample and then, ultimately Though render's thumb print is In 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.040 carrick's blood on the, wall and the print had to 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.639 have been when the blood was, wet so it puts 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.480 him at the actual scene of the. Crime so about 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:39.480 a week after the local news, Media Northwest herald released 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:42.320 an article that said that he had blood all over the. 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.560 Place so, unfortunately in between the second and third, Trial 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.800 Rob rendered overdosed on drugs on A i think it's 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.720 called a hot, shot so it's like when you take 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.160 caroin and cocaine mixed. Together but he was at a rehab, 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.879 center which was. Interesting so he died at a re. 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:04.080 Center as strange and shady as that, Sounds Rob render 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.040 clearly was not going to be able to, testify but 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.680 the blood evidence could tell that. Story, Meanwhile mario was 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.360 out on bond when something truly extraordinary. 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:18.480 HAPPENED i was at a bar And Shane lamb had 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.040 been released from, prison and he walked up to me 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:25.280 at the, bar and his conversation to me Is i'm 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.560 really sorry that this is. HAPPENING i didn't mean for 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.080 this to. HAPPEN i didn't think that Any jerry would 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:33.679 ever actually believe. ME i was just saying WHAT i 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:35.960 needed to say to get out of. Prison the state's 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.240 attorney told me specifically exactly WHAT i should, say and 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.840 fortunate for, me there's multiple witnesses, around and one being 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.000 a criminal defense attorney that is not on my, case 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:50.040 and somebody that was near me went and grabbed him 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:51.720 as like you need to be over, here because you're 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:53.800 an officer of the, court you should hear. This and 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:56.880 this wasn't a situation Where lamb was. Intoxicated he had 0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:58.560 just gotten there AND i had just gotten. 0:20:58.560 --> 0:20:59.919 There it was, daylight and. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.600 He's sitting there, venting telling me and this whole group 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:04.480 of people that he was forced to say all this 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:06.760 stuff and that he didn't think the jury would believe, 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:11.119 it and that all got entered into evidence in my third. 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.359 Trial, wow it's quite a turn of. Events he happened 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.040 to be in that bar and there happened to be 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:17.240 an officer of the court. 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:21.040 There video, camera video, camera we had it on video camera. 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.000 Bar. Wow and it wasn't so noisy in the. Bar 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:24.240 the video camera was able to pick it. 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:26.720 Up the audio on that one was garbled because the 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.640 bar obviously a loud. Place but then you see four 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.080 or five people standing around just, listening and then you 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:36.240 See Ed donahue on a camera sitting there listening to the. 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:39.200