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Speaker 1: On December twentieth, two thousand and two, seventeen year old

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Speaker 1: Brian Carrock was last seen at the Johnsburg, Illinois supermarket where.

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Speaker 2: He worked as a stockboy.

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Speaker 1: The following day, he was reported missing, and then the

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Speaker 1: police found blood spatter near a produce schooler at the store,

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Speaker 1: followed by a bloody fingerprint on the door handle. DNA

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Speaker 1: testing revealed two profiles, Brian Carrick and another stockboy named

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Speaker 1: Rob Render, who had already quit his job at Skipped Town,

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Speaker 1: while Brian or his body were never found. However, according

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Speaker 1: to the police, Bryan's disappearance was much more complicated than

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Speaker 1: it appeared. They believed that another stock boy named Mario Kusharo,

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Speaker 1: whose family owned the supermarket, had orchestrated an incident that

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Speaker 1: led to Brian's death, while Rob Render and another stockboy

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Speaker 1: were just following orders. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to wrongful conviction. I am so excited today because

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Speaker 1: this story is a story I've been wanting to tell

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Speaker 1: ever since I met the man who lived it, Mario Kasharo.

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Speaker 1: And Mario's case is unique in so many ways. He's

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Speaker 1: the only person in the history of the Great State

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Speaker 1: of Illinois, to be convicted of murder without a body

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Speaker 1: being found, with the exception of two guys you've probably

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Speaker 1: heard of and probably wish you hadn't, John Wayne Gacy

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Speaker 1: and Jeffrey Dahmer. And to make matters even worse and

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Speaker 1: stranger and more mind boggling, Mario was convicted of a

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Speaker 1: crime you've probably never heard of. I'd never heard of it.

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Speaker 1: It's called murder by intimidation. So, without further ado, please

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Speaker 1: join me in welcoming my great friend and personally hero,

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Speaker 1: Mario Cacio. Mario, welcome to wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me on this wonderful show.

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Speaker 1: So this story, I mean, you were nineteen years old

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Speaker 1: when this happened, but I want to go back even

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Speaker 1: farther than that. And it's crazy too because this is

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Speaker 1: a family story, because the alleged crime took place at

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Speaker 1: the supermarket you worked at that was owned by your family.

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Speaker 1: But let's rewind what was the previous eighteen years of

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Speaker 1: your life like before we get up to the faithful

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Speaker 1: occurrence that is the center of this story.

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Speaker 3: I would say, to summarize it short, would be a blessing.

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Speaker 3: My parents are the American dream my mother and father

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Speaker 3: emigrated from Italy Southern Italy. My dad found a job

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Speaker 3: as a janitor at a union company, worked there for

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Speaker 3: thirty six years and retired as union stewart and the

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Speaker 3: highest in command of a company that had twelve thousand employees.

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Speaker 3: And then he was too young to retire but too

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Speaker 3: old to start over, so he invested with some other

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Speaker 3: family members to start a grocery store in the far

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Speaker 3: northwest suburbs of Chicago. So we moved out to this

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Speaker 3: small little town called Johnsburg, Illinois, and my parents started

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Speaker 3: a supermarket because it was always my dad's dream to

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Speaker 3: own a business.

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Speaker 1: Johnsburg, Illinois has a population of less than sixty four

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Speaker 1: hundred people, so most of the people whose names pop

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Speaker 1: up in this story were all acquainted with each other

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Speaker 1: from either high school just around town, or from working

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Speaker 1: at vals to Cushao's grocery store, including a few of

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Speaker 1: the stock boys, Alan Leppert, Shane Lamb, Robert Render, and

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Speaker 1: then the victim in this case, a close friend of Mario's,

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Speaker 1: Brian Carrick.

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Speaker 3: Brian was one of fourteen children, nine of which worked

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Speaker 3: for my family's grocery store at one time or another,

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Speaker 3: so it was a family tradition for the Carrick children

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Speaker 3: to work at VAL's while they were in high school

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Speaker 3: until they went off to college or the army or

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Speaker 3: whatever endeavors they had in their life. So we're pretty

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Speaker 3: close because they lived also directly across the street from

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Speaker 3: the store.

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Speaker 2: On the only main road in town.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like Smallville, USA. Pretty much everybody knows everybody. I've

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Speaker 1: like mister Rogers visions in my head, but okay, this

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Speaker 1: is the Actually it turns into the opposite of that.

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Speaker 1: So on December twenty first, two thousand and two, Brian Carrick,

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Speaker 1: who was seventeen at the time. Another stock boy at

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Speaker 1: VAL's Foods right Darren Johnsburg, Illinois, was reported missing by

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Speaker 1: his mother, and the police determined that one of the

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Speaker 1: last times he had been seen was the previous day,

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Speaker 1: December twentieth, when he went to the store to pick

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Speaker 1: up his paycheck, and then two days after that, the

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Speaker 1: twenty second, the cops found blood spatter near a cooler

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Speaker 1: that was used to store produce and a bloody fingerprint

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Speaker 1: on the cooler's exterior door handle. Now DNA tests identified

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Speaker 1: the blood spatter and the cooler as belonging to Bryan Carrick.

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Speaker 1: The fingerprint and the blood the print was in that

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Speaker 1: was on the cooler door handle or identified by DNA

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Speaker 1: testing as belonging to Robert Render, who was another stock

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Speaker 1: boy at Valves. As we've discussed, and witnesses told police

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Speaker 1: that Render was president at the store on December twentieth,

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Speaker 1: he quit his job, interestingly on December twenty second and

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Speaker 1: dropped out of sight. You don't need to be Colombo

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Speaker 1: to start to wonder what was going on there. But okay, now,

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Speaker 1: other stock boys who were present on the day that

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Speaker 1: Carrick was last seen, included you. The crime went unsolved

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Speaker 1: for several years, and this poor kid, Krrick, his body

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Speaker 1: was never found. Do we know or do we have

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Speaker 1: a strong theory about what actually happened to Brian And

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Speaker 1: how did Render convince them not to pursue him.

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Speaker 3: It's a great question that's largely gone unanswered. The lion's

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Speaker 3: share of the physical evidence indicated his involvement in this case,

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Speaker 3: from fingerprints to DNA evidence. The victim's blood is on

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Speaker 3: the top of his shoes that he was wearing the

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Speaker 3: night of the crime. Everything that's undisputed links him to

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Speaker 3: the case. Looking backward years later after civil depositions with

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Speaker 3: the police department, and their defense always was that he

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Speaker 3: wasn't a very big guy, and of course our defense

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Speaker 3: was that if you're stabbing somebody, you don't have to

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Speaker 3: be a big guy. And Brian Carrick and Rob Render

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Speaker 3: were approximately.

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Speaker 2: The same size.

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Speaker 3: I would say Rob was just a little bigger than Brian,

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Speaker 3: but for some reason, because I was a taller person,

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Speaker 3: their opinion was that I was more capable of committing

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Speaker 3: this crime.

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Speaker 1: You're not a big guy, You're a slender guy. Will

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Speaker 1: use skinny guy back then too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was about one hundred and forty five pounds

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Speaker 3: one fifty maybe tops six', one SO i was a,

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Speaker 3: skinny tall.

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Speaker 1: Guy six years After brian characters, Appeared Rob render was finally,

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Speaker 1: charged but only with concealing a homicide and not. Homicide,

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Speaker 1: however during the interim years the case went. Cold in

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Speaker 1: life moved.

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Speaker 3: On, YEAH i graduated college and then me and my

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Speaker 3: dad and my brother opened a supermarket on our own

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Speaker 3: because the previous supermarket In johnsburg had more family members in,

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Speaker 3: it and families were, growing so we decided to open

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Speaker 3: our own supermarket and it was wildly.

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Speaker 2: Successful.

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Speaker 1: Well mario's life was going. Great an old high school,

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Speaker 1: Acquaintance Alan, lippert was not doing as.

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Speaker 3: Well now at this, TIME i hadn't Seen Alan lippert

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Speaker 3: since probably junior senior year of high, school so four

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Speaker 3: or five years had gone. BY i went off to.

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Speaker 3: College he dropped out of high school and got really

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Speaker 3: heavy into. Drugs he had just been released from prison

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Speaker 3: and then gotten himself in some. Trouble he had drugs

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Speaker 3: on him and he was looking at going back to

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Speaker 3: prison FOR i think somewhere between two and four. Years

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Speaker 3: and that is the beginning of what we call the

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Speaker 3: dream confession in our, case Because Alan lippert claimed that

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Speaker 3: he was sitting at his house one day at two

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Speaker 3: o'clock or three o'clock in the, morning and then my

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Speaker 3: car pulled into his driveway AND i told him THAT

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Speaker 3: i needed to confess THAT i was involved in the

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Speaker 3: murder Of Brian.

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Speaker 1: Carrick according To, lippert in the fall of two thousand and,

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Speaker 1: Six mario confessed that he had told one of the

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Speaker 1: Larger stock boys Named Shane lamb to Intimidate brian for

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Speaker 1: reasons related to drug, trafficking and quote things got out

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Speaker 1: of hand end. Quote, Additionally lippert said That brian's body

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Speaker 1: had been buried, locally but Then mario allegedly called his

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Speaker 1: cousins From chicago to, exuom, dismember and relocate the body

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Speaker 1: to a river In.

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Speaker 3: Iowa the local police department At Alan lippert come into

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Speaker 3: my grocery store wearing a wire AND i hadn't seen

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Speaker 3: him in, years and he started asking me How i've,

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Speaker 3: been how's my, family stuff like, that and then he's,

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Speaker 3: like do you remember that night that you stopped over

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Speaker 3: at my? House AND i was, like what are you talking?

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Speaker 3: ABOUT i didn't EVEN i haven't seen you in a.

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Speaker 3: While and it was really awkward.

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Speaker 1: Conversation at this, Point mario was still completely unaware that

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Speaker 1: he was a suspect in this cold. Case until the

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Speaker 1: grand jury was.

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Speaker 3: CONVENED i was told that they had a lead in

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Speaker 3: the case and they needed help establishing. Timelines and THEN

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Speaker 3: i was brought into the grand jury AND i walked

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Speaker 3: in without an attorney BECAUSE i didn't THINK i needed.

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Speaker 3: ONE i didn't do anything, wrong and of course there's

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Speaker 3: three prosecutors cross examining you for over an. Hour every

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Speaker 3: question is how did you Kill? Brian, Carrick where did

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Speaker 3: you put the murder? Weapon where did you put his?

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Speaker 3: Body why did you kill? Him And i'm just, answering, no, no,

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Speaker 3: No i'm not involved in any of, this SO i

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Speaker 3: keep saying.

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Speaker 1: No mario still had no idea That lippert was the,

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Speaker 1: Source so after the grand, Jury lippert wired up a

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Speaker 1: few more, times and according To McHenry county Prosecutors Michael

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Speaker 1: combs And Patrick, Knneely mario's grand jury testimony differed from

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Speaker 1: the recordings With Alan, lippert and they charged him with

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Speaker 1: nine counts of Per but something about the investigation piqued

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Speaker 1: the interest of THE, fbi who Interviewed lippert about that

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Speaker 1: fall night in two thousand and.

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Speaker 3: Six THE fbi gave him a polygraph test and he failed,

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Speaker 3: miserably and then when they asked him why he, failed

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Speaker 3: he said it very well may have been a, dream

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Speaker 3: and that he was drinking alcohol all day in excess

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Speaker 3: of a case of beer in multiple, shots and that

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Speaker 3: he was also high on mushrooms and he wasn't sure

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Speaker 3: IF i really came to his house or.

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Speaker 1: Not that was their, witness which might explain why the

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Speaker 1: prosecutors were forced to drop seven of the nine counts

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Speaker 1: before trial In august of two thousand.

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Speaker 3: And, nine we were so confident in that they didn't

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Speaker 3: have any. Evidence we actually paid an expert audio person

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Speaker 3: to make the tapes more so you could hear them

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Speaker 3: better once you removed all the background. Noise you just

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Speaker 3: hear me asking him what the hell he's talking? About

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Speaker 3: and why are you asking me? That what are you talking?

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Speaker 3: About and then he tried to change the subject and

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Speaker 3: then ultimately left the store after his attempt to frame

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Speaker 3: me for a. Crime and then after we played it

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Speaker 3: for the state's, attorney that's when they dismissed the. Counts

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Speaker 3: but then, they of course they went to the media

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Speaker 3: and said it was. Inaudible but, Yeah so then we

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Speaker 3: proceeded the two counts that were remaining and we did

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Speaker 3: a bench trial in front Of Sharon prater in Mckenry.

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Speaker 3: County and up until this, point a bench trials not

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Speaker 3: a lot of people usually elect those on a serious

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Speaker 3: criminal defense. Case but ultimately we felt that they had

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Speaker 3: absolutely no evidence because they did not have any. Corroboration

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Speaker 3: they had the testimony of a three time felon that

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Speaker 3: was looking to get out of an unrelated. Case that's

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Speaker 3: saying that he isn't sure if it was a dream or,

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Speaker 3: not and that he was on mushrooms and drink a

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Speaker 3: case of. Beer that's the only evidence they, had so

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Speaker 3: she dismissed. It she did a directed verdict.

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Speaker 2: Acquittal.

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Speaker 1: Wow NOW i have to, ask did you think that

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Speaker 1: after That i'm not guilty, verdict that this was finally

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Speaker 1: over and you can put it behind.

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Speaker 2: YOU i, did AND i.

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Speaker 3: DIDN'T i didn't because of the reaction of the. Prosecutor

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Speaker 3: he slammed his hands on his, table and then when

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Speaker 3: we were walking, out he, said this isn't.

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Speaker 2: Over.

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Speaker 3: Wow and then three months go by AND i am

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Speaker 3: pulling out of the parking lot of the store AND

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Speaker 3: i get boxed in by white. Expeditions they are, screaming

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Speaker 3: get out of the, car get on the, ground get

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Speaker 3: on the. Ground i'm laying on my, stomach handcuffed behind

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Speaker 3: my back and shotguns drawn to my head and one

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Speaker 3: of the police officers tells me you have been charged with.

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Speaker 1: Murder wrongful conviction has always given voice to innocent people in.

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Speaker 1: Prison now we're expanding that voice to. You call us

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Speaker 1: at eight three three TWO o seven four six sixty

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Speaker 1: six and leave us a message tell us how these,

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Speaker 1: powerful often tragic stories make you feel, outraged, inspired. Motivated

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Speaker 1: we want to. Know we may even include your story

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Speaker 1: in a future. Episode call US a three, three, TWO

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Speaker 1: o seven four six SIX.

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Speaker 3: X so it all stemmed From Shane. Lamb he had

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00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,080
Speaker 3: just been released from prison on an unrelated drug. Case

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Speaker 3: they set him up on an operation Called Operation Lamb

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Speaker 3: Chop believe Or. Not they got an undercover to ask

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Speaker 3: him if he could find some, cocaine and when he

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00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,440
Speaker 3: was broke and just got out of, prison he agreed

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Speaker 3: to selling, cocaine and then the undercover had him meet

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Speaker 3: them in a high school parking. Lot, so now you

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Speaker 3: have a person that's on parole for Two CLASS x

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Speaker 3: felonies and he's looking at like fourteen years in The

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Speaker 3: Illinois department Of. Corrections so now they put an unsurmountable

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Speaker 3: amount of pressure on. Him and they, said, well here

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Speaker 3: is the testimony of All lippert And lamb and the

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Speaker 3: prosecutor met and they had concocted a.

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Speaker 1: Story Shane lamb was granted full immunity for his, cooperation

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Speaker 1: and In february twenty, ten they Arrested mario on Six

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Speaker 1: velly murder counts as well as concealing a.

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Speaker 3: HOMICIDE i think they just threw anything they could at

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Speaker 3: the wall and saw what. Stuck this isn't a office

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Speaker 3: that's known for being very. Ethical So BRIAN. T, landers

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Speaker 3: who represented, me he previously was a state's attorney In

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Speaker 3: Cook county and then went to become a judge In

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00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,280
Speaker 3: DuPage county and then came off the bench and took my.

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00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 1: Case lander quickly poked holes In lamb's, story who alleged

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Speaker 1: that he And karak sold weed From mario and that

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00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 1: he Was mario's alleged, muscle standing at six foot and

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00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 1: two hundred and forty. Pounds lamb alleged That mario called

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Speaker 1: him into the store to Intimidate karrick and collect from

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Speaker 1: him on the day he.

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Speaker 3: Disappeared lamb's biggest quote was that If mario didn't, call

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Speaker 3: THEN i wouldn't have been. There so what we did

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Speaker 3: is we Got lamb's phone record in my phone, records

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Speaker 3: and of course there's no phone calls between me And

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Speaker 3: lamb at. All in, fact there's no phone calls for

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Speaker 3: me to anybody during the time that they think this murder,

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Speaker 3: happened and that gave him a.

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Speaker 1: Stump the prosecutors dropped five of the seven, charges but

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Speaker 1: they moved forward with two felony murder counts by unlawful

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Speaker 1: restraint and by. Intimidation and the indictment read That mario

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Speaker 1: quote or one for whom he was legally accountable while

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00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,640
Speaker 1: committing the forcible felony of, intimidation Struck karc in the,

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Speaker 1: head causing his death end. Quote so they brought this

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Speaker 1: case that was predicated on statements that had been impeached before. Trial,

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Speaker 1: now since the defense didn't feel like the burden of

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00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,240
Speaker 1: proof was, met the strategy was to focus on cross.

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Speaker 1: Examination they pointed out That lamb was lying about any

286
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,280
Speaker 1: phone calls that brought him to the, store but nonetheless

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00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,200
Speaker 1: he maintained that he was there in the cooler Under

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00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,520
Speaker 1: mario's direction and Punched karak in the. Face lamb, said,

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00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,520
Speaker 1: QUOTE i THOUGHT i knocked him. OUT i knock out

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00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 1: a lot of. People mario grabbed me and said get

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00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:07,840
Speaker 1: out of. Here end.

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00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:13,320
Speaker 3: Quote my attorney Got Shane lamb on cross examination to

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00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,480
Speaker 3: say that he'll say whatever he's got to say to

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00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,120
Speaker 3: not go to, prison and he, said even lying about

295
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,640
Speaker 3: a murder, case and then he said, yes and then

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00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 3: we were, like no further.

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00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,280
Speaker 1: Questions the state trotted Out Alan lippert again to talk

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00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,800
Speaker 1: about his alcohol and mushroom fueled fever. Dream this time he,

299
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 1: added though That mario had told him that, Quote shane Hit,

300
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,800
Speaker 1: carrick but it was an accident end, quote again using

301
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,560
Speaker 1: the info from THE fbi. Interview mario's attorney shredded him

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00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,120
Speaker 1: on cross. Examination, now had they put on a defense

303
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,120
Speaker 1: beyond cross, examination Calling Rob render may have been a winning.

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00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,280
Speaker 3: Strategy the state put him on the witness list and

305
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,160
Speaker 3: we prepared for the cross, examination and then they just

306
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:56,720
Speaker 3: didn't call.

307
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 1: Him, however the state did present a crime lab technician

308
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,200
Speaker 1: to talk about the blood evidence that Implicated Rob.

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00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 3: Render when we had the state crime lab expert on the,

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Speaker 3: stand my lawyers started asking, Him, okay you guys took

311
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,480
Speaker 3: how many? Swabs and he, said we TOOK i think

312
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,120
Speaker 3: it was like thirty. Six and then he, said, well

313
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Speaker 3: are you sure it's not eighteen BECAUSE i only have

314
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,919
Speaker 3: eighteen that were, tested and he, said, no we took thirty,

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Speaker 3: six but we didn't have all of them.

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00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,040
Speaker 1: Tested this meant that there was new evidence available that

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00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,600
Speaker 1: would further solidify renders. Guilt but Remember mario's charges were

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00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,000
Speaker 1: not about, violence but about who orchestrated the incident that

319
00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:37,120
Speaker 1: resulted in. Violence and after two days of, deliberation eleven

320
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,119
Speaker 1: of the twelve jurors believed the state's narrative about drug

321
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,120
Speaker 1: dealing and musclemn and That mario was in fact guilty

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Speaker 1: of murder by.

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00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,200
Speaker 3: Intimidation we thought that there was maybe one hold out

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Speaker 3: that wanted to, convict and it was eleven to one

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Speaker 3: the other. WAY i, mean they didn't have anything that

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00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,840
Speaker 3: put me in. It they didn't have a, motive an,

327
00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:00,560
Speaker 3: opportunity any physical. Evidence it was not a situation WHERE

328
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 3: i was Thinking.

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00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 2: I'm going to be, Convicted so what DO i? Know?

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00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 1: Though you know a lot more. NOW i, mean by the,

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Speaker 1: way whoever that one person, IS i hope they're listening right,

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00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,239
Speaker 1: now because life slaver and for everyone's. Listening when you

333
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,600
Speaker 1: serve on a, jury be that, one you know WHAT i,

334
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:19,160
Speaker 1: mean stand. Up it's, inconvenient it can be, scary, intimidating

335
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,000
Speaker 1: it could take more of your. Time you're not going

336
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,359
Speaker 1: to get home as quickly to your family and the

337
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 1: things that you. Love but you know what that person

338
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 1: at least temporarily Saved mario's. Life so here we go

339
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 1: to the third.

340
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,400
Speaker 3: Trial different, jury but we had actually more evidence that

341
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:37,919
Speaker 3: was helpful to.

342
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,000
Speaker 1: Me this, Time mario's team was going to mount a

343
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 1: robust defense beyond cross. Examination first the remaining blood.

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00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,040
Speaker 3: Evidence the very first motion that we filed was to

345
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:54,160
Speaker 3: have all of the blood evidence examined by the state crime.

346
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,480
Speaker 3: Lab so those came, back and more of them Were

347
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,560
Speaker 3: render Than. Carrick so it's not like he had a

348
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,440
Speaker 3: little bit of blood at the crime. Scene he's got

349
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,800
Speaker 3: blood all over the place at the crime. Scene and

350
00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,080
Speaker 3: the experts that looked at the photographs of the crime,

351
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,960
Speaker 3: scene they think it was a stabbing and they think

352
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,240
Speaker 3: That render cut himself with the, knife which is why

353
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,320
Speaker 3: there's multiple places.

354
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,359
Speaker 2: Where his blood is actually meshed With.

355
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,360
Speaker 3: Carricks so the sample had both of their blood on one.

356
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,640
Speaker 3: Sample and then, ultimately Though render's thumb print is In

357
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,040
Speaker 3: carrick's blood on the, wall and the print had to

358
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,639
Speaker 3: have been when the blood was, wet so it puts

359
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,480
Speaker 3: him at the actual scene of the. Crime so about

360
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 3: a week after the local news, Media Northwest herald released

361
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 3: an article that said that he had blood all over the.

362
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 3: Place so, unfortunately in between the second and third, Trial

363
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 3: Rob rendered overdosed on drugs on A i think it's

364
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 3: called a hot, shot so it's like when you take

365
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 3: caroin and cocaine mixed. Together but he was at a rehab,

366
00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,879
Speaker 3: center which was. Interesting so he died at a re.

367
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 1: Center as strange and shady as that, Sounds Rob render

368
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 1: clearly was not going to be able to, testify but

369
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,680
Speaker 1: the blood evidence could tell that. Story, Meanwhile mario was

370
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,360
Speaker 1: out on bond when something truly extraordinary.

371
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 3: HAPPENED i was at a bar And Shane lamb had

372
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 3: been released from, prison and he walked up to me

373
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 3: at the, bar and his conversation to me Is i'm

374
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 3: really sorry that this is. HAPPENING i didn't mean for

375
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 3: this to. HAPPEN i didn't think that Any jerry would

376
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,679
Speaker 3: ever actually believe. ME i was just saying WHAT i

377
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 3: needed to say to get out of. Prison the state's

378
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 3: attorney told me specifically exactly WHAT i should, say and

379
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 3: fortunate for, me there's multiple witnesses, around and one being

380
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 3: a criminal defense attorney that is not on my, case

381
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,040
Speaker 3: and somebody that was near me went and grabbed him

382
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 3: as like you need to be over, here because you're

383
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 3: an officer of the, court you should hear. This and

384
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,880
Speaker 3: this wasn't a situation Where lamb was. Intoxicated he had

385
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 3: just gotten there AND i had just gotten.

386
00:20:58,560 --> 00:20:59,919
Speaker 2: There it was, daylight and.

387
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 3: He's sitting there, venting telling me and this whole group

388
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 3: of people that he was forced to say all this

389
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 3: stuff and that he didn't think the jury would believe,

390
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 3: it and that all got entered into evidence in my third.

391
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 1: Trial, wow it's quite a turn of. Events he happened

392
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: to be in that bar and there happened to be

393
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 1: an officer of the court.

394
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 3: There video, camera video, camera we had it on video camera.

395
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 1: Bar. Wow and it wasn't so noisy in the. Bar

396
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 1: the video camera was able to pick it.

397
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 3: Up the audio on that one was garbled because the

398
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 3: bar obviously a loud. Place but then you see four

399
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 3: or five people standing around just, listening and then you

400
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 3: See Ed donahue on a camera sitting there listening to the.

401
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 3: Conversation And ed's an. Attorney he was a former state's

402
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 3: attorney and he was a criminal defense attorney in Mckenry.

403
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 3: County so he's ultimately pulled into this case because he

404
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 3: just was a patron of the local.

405
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 1: Bar even with this bombshell impeachment, evidence once again destroying

406
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 1: the testimony Of Shane. Lamb mario was tried for a

407
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 1: third time In march twenty, thirteen but this time the

408
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: unlawful restraint charge was which meant that the only charge

409
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: he was now facing was felony murdered by.

410
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 3: Intimidation of, course we alerted the judge that nobody in the,

411
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 3: country nobody in common, law has ever been charged with.

412
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 3: This so nobody In, England New, Zealand, australia any country

413
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 3: that practices common, law has ever used intimidation as a

414
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 3: predicate felony for. Murder and the judge's response was that

415
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 3: would be an item for the appellate court to, decide

416
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 3: so she wouldn't make a ruling on it and force

417
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 3: us to proceed on that last.

418
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: Count and before, trial the prosecutors did what they usually

419
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 1: do when their case is this.

420
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 3: Thin the morning that we selected the third, jury The

421
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 3: States Attorney's office came to my attorney and, said if

422
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 3: you can get your client to plead guilty to concealment

423
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 3: of a, homicide which is A class two, FELONY i

424
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 3: believe will dismiss the final murder, count AND i think

425
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 3: at that time it already served two years in the county,

426
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 3: jail SO i pretty much would addressed in and dressed

427
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 3: out BECAUSE i had no criminal. Background BUT i was

428
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 3: unwe willing to take a plea deal WHERE i admitted

429
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 3: to concealing somebody's body WHEN i had nothing to do

430
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 3: with the.

431
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 1: Case so the state persisted once again presenting the evidence

432
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: that had convinced eleven out of twelve jurors during the second.

433
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 3: TRIAL i actually felt really confident going in because in

434
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 3: the third trial we actually presented a defense in which

435
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 3: we brought an attorney At donahue to. TESTIFY i understand

436
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 3: that the state's main and only witness was being told

437
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 3: what to stay by the, prosecution and that he admitted

438
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 3: to lying and that none of that what he had

439
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 3: testified to was. True but Also lamb's in the second

440
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 3: trial he said THAT i told him to do, it

441
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 3: but then the third trial he came back and said

442
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 3: that he did it on his own and THAT i

443
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 3: just happened to be there with.

444
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,919
Speaker 1: The defense that was mounted the blood, evidence bone, Record

445
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 1: Shane lamb's, recantation and both states witnesses being destroyed on

446
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 1: Cross it's really confusing how we're here speaking With mary.

447
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 3: TODAY i had the feeling during the third trial that

448
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 3: the jury pool was not Paying at ten we had

449
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 3: an older. Jury every time that we looked over at,

450
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 3: them it was like they were like, sleeping but not

451
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 3: like resting their head on their.

452
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: Arms it appears that the state was able to muddy

453
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: up which should have been very clear waters for a

454
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: very sleepy. Jury And, mario after fighting the state for

455
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 1: now over six, years became the first person IN us

456
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: history and common law history to be convicted of felony

457
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: murder by.

458
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 3: Intimidation when the judge read the, verdict people stood up

459
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 3: and started screaming at the, jury asking them if they

460
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 3: listened to any of the. WITNESSES i put my head

461
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 3: down BECAUSE i just couldn't believe. It everybody was up in,

462
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 3: Arms my parents were, crying and that the two prosecutors

463
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 3: were high fiving each. Other and then the one prosecutor

464
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 3: ultimately looked at me and, SAID i told YOU i

465
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 3: was going to get.

466
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 2: You told you it wasn't.

467
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 3: Over the very next morning AFTER i was, Convicted Brian

468
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 3: telander came to see me And he was obviously very,

469
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 3: apologetic but also was just telling me he could not

470
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 3: believe still that the jury convicted on that.

471
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 2: Evidence he was pretty.

472
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 3: BROKEN i think he actually told me that he lost

473
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 3: faith in the justice system from that. Verdict and he

474
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 3: said THAT i have talked to The states. Attorney they're

475
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: willing to cut a deal with you if you can

476
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: tell them where the body. Is SO i told HIM

477
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 3: i had no idea where the body. Was so even

478
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: AFTER i was, CONVICTED i still turned down a plea.

479
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 3: Deal of, course IF i was actually responsible for this,

480
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 3: CRIME i would have taken both opportunities.

481
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: In Covering mario's. Case we had the opportunity to speak

482
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: with his post conviction, Attorney Kathleen, zelner and she told

483
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: us how she got.

484
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 4: Involved his sister worked for a law firm downtown and

485
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 4: she was RESEARCHING i guess wrongful conviction attorneys and she

486
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 4: found me and THEN i met with. THEM i love his,

487
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 4: family and you hear his, background and you know he

488
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 4: already had a college. Degree and then the judge has

489
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 4: such a horrible. REPUTATION i was all.

490
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 3: In two days AFTER i was, CONVICTED i get called

491
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 3: for a. Visit i'm at the McKenny County jail AND

492
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 3: i walk into the visiting room AND i see a woman.

493
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 3: THERE i had never seen her, before SO i, SAID

494
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 3: i Think i'm in the wrong, room and she, Said,

495
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 3: Mario i'm here to talk to. You my name Is Kathleen.

496
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 3: Zelner i'm very interested in helping. You this evidence is

497
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 3: so ridiculous THAT i think that we might be able

498
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 3: to get the judge to vacate the conviction before even the,

499
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 3: sentencing and then you'll have either a fourth trial or

500
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 3: this will be.

501
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: The end of.

502
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: It we didn't think that was like a high, probably

503
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 3: but it was a.

504
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: Possibility, unfortunately that possibility did not come to, pass And

505
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: mario was sentenced to twenty six.

506
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: Years So i'm down In.

507
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 3: Minard minard is a maximum security prison that is about

508
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 3: an hour south Of Saint, louis AND i was living

509
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 3: prior to all this about an hour north Of, chicago

510
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 3: so it's about a six hour drive for my family

511
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 3: to come and see. Me it's a max security, place

512
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: so there's not a lot of. MOVEMENT i was in

513
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 3: my jail cell twenty three hours a. Day in one,

514
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 3: sense it's terrible that you're confined to a small space

515
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 3: for twenty three hours a. Day but in another, way

516
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 3: at least you're not open to getting attacked by a

517
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: bunch of people that have been legitimately convicted of murder.

518
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 2: OFFENSES i would say.

519
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 3: It's probably the worst Place i've ever.

520
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: Been wish it upon.

521
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 3: Nobody but what they did have THAT i thought was

522
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 3: good was a law. Library SO i just stayed to

523
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: myself from the MOMENT i got there till the MOMENT i.

524
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 3: LEFT i focused on case and tried to figure out

525
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: how to get out of, there and did as much

526
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 3: legal research AS i possibly, could and read as many

527
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 3: books about the law AS i. COULD i thought that

528
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 3: it would be prudent for me to use every moment

529
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 3: THAT i had to focus on. Freedom even THOUGH i

530
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 3: have a great, LAWYER.

531
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 4: I didn't want to just sit there with the direct.

532
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 4: APPEAL i wanted to, reinvestigate because In illinois you can

533
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 4: file the post conviction and the direct appeal at the same.

534
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 4: Time during that, investigation we found a former employee that

535
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 4: had worked there that had discovered a pair of men's

536
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 4: underwear in the women's restroom up in the. Ceiling the

537
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 4: tiles had been removed and somebody had thrown it up

538
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 4: there and it was, bloodstained and it turned out render

539
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 4: had gone in that. Bathroom he was cut and. Bleeding

540
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 4: it was his. Underwear he used that as a tourniquet

541
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 4: to stop the, bleeding and then he threw it up

542
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 4: in the. Ceiling and it turned out this employee that

543
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 4: had discovered a pair of men's, underwear this kid's, father

544
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 4: was a deputy. Sheriff so the father, said we got

545
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 4: to take this over to the sheriff's office and turn it,

546
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 4: in so they, did and then the police chief threw it.

547
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: Away Jesus.

548
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 4: Christ he admitted that in his civil, DEPOSITION i filed

549
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 4: a post conviction petition along with the appeal so THAT

550
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 4: i could put all the new evidence in that and publicize.

551
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 1: It ABC's twenty twenty began looking into the, case And

552
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: Shane lamb agreed to, participate where he gave a videotaped

553
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: recantation while exposing state's Attorney Michael, combs, saying quote all

554
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: of it was. False the state's attorney set it. UP

555
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: i didn't have anything to do with. This maria didn't

556
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: have anything to do with. THIS i would be indicted

557
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: for murder IF i didn't. COOPERATE i was following What

558
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,959
Speaker 1: combs wanted me to. Say they just wanted to close

559
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: the case end. Quote. Wow.

560
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 4: Yeah and we planned all that with twenty twenty because

561
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 4: that's one of my really good, Friends lisa's soul, away

562
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 4: so we had given them like. Questions we thought he

563
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 4: would give a, confession but if he'd do it on the,

564
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 4: air that would be even.

565
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 3: BETTER i can't THINK abc twenty twenty. Enough that show

566
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 3: changed EVERYTHING i, thought because it really just undermined that

567
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 3: conviction and it just ferreted out how bad the prosecutors.

568
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: Are in Mckenry.

569
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 3: COUNTY i, mean it's pretty bad when you have on

570
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 3: national show saying that the prosecutors are coursing witnesses and

571
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 3: telling them what to.

572
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 4: Say that's how you get leverage with the appellate.

573
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: Court at the time this, Aired mario's direct appeal was

574
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: pending in a filing where the focus was insufficient. Evidence

575
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: having the information that your jury appeared to have missed

576
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: be broadcast nationally probably didn't hurt when a three judge

577
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: panel made.

578
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 3: Their Ruling september twenty, third twenty, FIFTEEN i got a

579
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 3: call From kathleen's. Office my parents were in the room

580
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: AND i THINK abc taped. It kathleen, said the appellate

581
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 3: opinion came out and they overturned your, case and you

582
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 3: are going to be a free. Man all three judges

583
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 3: said that no reasonable juror could convict me based on

584
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 3: the evidence that was.

585
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: Presented somehow they still found. Twelve, yeah for your third.

586
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 3: Trial they're saying there's twelve people that are. Unreasonable it

587
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 3: makes it makes. Sense so at the, time AND i

588
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 3: don't know if that's still the, case but at the,

589
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 3: time this was only the fourth case to ever be

590
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: overturned for insufficiency, evidence for specifically for no reasonable dur

591
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: could convict base on the evidence that was.

592
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: Presented i'm rarely at a loss for, Words, mario but

593
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: this is one of those. Times but so let me

594
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: just take a deep breath and then let's get to

595
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: the good.

596
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 3: Stuff so two days, LATER i am told That i'm

597
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 3: going to be released by the. Guards So i'm packing

598
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: everything up AND i go to the front. Door the

599
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 3: warden is. THERE i actually asked the warden IF i

600
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: could speak to her about running her facility more, efficiently and.

601
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: She thought that was very.

602
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 3: Odd she, said you're free to walk out the door

603
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 3: AND i, said, YEAH i, know BUT i was brought

604
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: up in a grocery store and we had a pretty large,

605
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 3: business so in a very professional, manner SO i think

606
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 3: you could address these issues and you guys would actually

607
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 3: make more money. Too and it boiled all the way

608
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 3: down to. Phones so there was only four phones available

609
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 3: on the, yard but there's two hundred and fifty. PEOPLE i,

610
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: said why don't you triple the amount of, phones because

611
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 3: they're making ten dollars a phone call at the, time

612
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 3: so it would be to their benefit to have more.

613
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 3: Phones but also what happened is the gang's one of

614
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 3: the biggest reasons they had power is they would control the.

615
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: Phone SO i explained to, her why don't you triple

616
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 3: the amount of. Phones you guys can make more, money

617
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: you'd have less, fights and she acted like she had no,

618
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: idea and then she was, like you're being, released see you.

619
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 3: Later so my family brings clothes in to, me and

620
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 3: THEN i walk out the. Door, kathleen she raised my

621
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 3: hand up as we were walking down the stairs because

622
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 3: we had defeated the. State after long rigorous wore thirteen

623
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: years after the, disappearance.

624
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: You and and we're close, though, Right So what did

625
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: his thirteen siblings think of all.

626
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: THIS i had spoken to a few of them during the,

627
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: years and it seems like they're conflicted something That i'm.

628
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 3: Responsible some. Don't some of the siblings thought THAT i

629
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 3: knew what happened and THAT i wasn't telling them or

630
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 3: wasn't coming clean to the police, department when in, REALITY

631
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: i would have been the first one that would have

632
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 3: because it would have absolved me from having anything to

633
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 3: do with. This they were all really good. PEOPLE i

634
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 3: feel terrible that this happened to. Them for, ME i

635
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 3: wish they would have directed their energy more at being

636
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 3: upset with The State's attorney's office for just having such

637
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 3: an inadequate investigation in the local police.

638
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: Department the reasons for that righteous indignation ended up on

639
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: full display during the depositions For mario's civil.

640
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 3: Litigation when we were deposing the lead, investigator he disclosed

641
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 3: to us that he had never been to the police

642
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 3: academy prior to this.

643
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 4: Investigation, yeah BECAUSE i always start in those depths, with,

644
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 4: well give us a little bit about your job.

645
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 3: History three months before the, investigation he was working AT

646
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: Ace hardware and he was let go for being an

647
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 3: incompetent stock man and then walked into the police department

648
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: and was told that they were looking for somebody part.

649
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 3: Time he had never been to the police academy prior

650
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 3: to this. Investigation he was pending he was going to.

651
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 3: Go so a guy that was let go from THE

652
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 3: Ace hardware because he couldn't figure out where to stock

653
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 3: items correctly three months in is now in charge of

654
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 3: a murder.

655
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 4: Investigation he felt tremendous guilt because he really gave up

656
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 4: everything in that. Deposition it was, like you, KNOW i

657
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 4: never should have done.

658
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 3: That and even their attorneys were just in. Awe and

659
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 3: then we informed him that if you know somebody's innocent

660
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 3: of a, crime you have what's called a duty to.

661
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 3: Intervene and his response, WAS i didn't know THAT i

662
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 3: could do.

663
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: THAT i didn't know.

664
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 3: THAT i could tell the state's attorney that do you

665
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 3: guys have the wrong? Guy so, well, honestly the civil

666
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 3: rights depositions made everything that happened over the years crystal,

667
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: clear and you could see why it, happened and it

668
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: just it boiled all the way down to if somebody's

669
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 3: not trained to be a police officer and has no

670
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 3: experience and has no idea what they're. Doing they should

671
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 3: not be at a crime. SCENE i, mean he's at

672
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 3: the crime scene touching everything without gloves on because he

673
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 3: didn't know that you should put gloves.

674
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: On if only Mckenry county managed to have the same

675
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: standards AS Ace, HARDWARE i, mean can you imagine not

676
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: to mention how the prosecuting Attorneys Michael combs And patrick

677
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: McNeely had the same duty right they did to, intervene

678
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: but in a, sick sinister, twist they somehow still felt

679
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: it was appropriate for them to high five each other

680
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: when you got.

681
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 3: Convicted but karma works itself. OUT i, THINK i don't

682
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 3: know if you guys have followed. Aftermath but the prosecutor

683
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 3: that was the lead on this case ended up being

684
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 3: fired and his pretty much incapable of finding a meaningful. Employment,

685
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 3: interestingly because it's a small, town multiple people have sent

686
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 3: me he can't control his, liquors so he falls off

687
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 3: barstools and talks about how powerful he is in that little.

688
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: Town has claim to fame was that he got a

689
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 2: conviction with.

690
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 3: Nobody he's willing to tell people this and actually as

691
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 3: if it's an, achievement when really you should be ashamed of.

692
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 3: Himself and then the second prosecutor is now the state's

693
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 3: attorney of the, county but has had a number of.

694
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 3: ISSUES i know he attacked his, wife the police were,

695
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 3: called and just really become an embarrassment to the.

696
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: State, meanwhile since his, Release mario graduated From Loyola Law

697
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: school and was admitted to The Illinois State bar in twenty,

698
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: nineteen all while settling his civil.

699
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 3: Case SO i actually settled with The State's attorney's office

700
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 3: and with the police department. Separately i'm one of very few,

701
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: people if, Any i've never actually met any other wrongfully

702
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 3: convicted people that actually settled with the state's attorney's office

703
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 3: because they have absolute, immunity and they still settled with,

704
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 3: me primarily because they were concerned about their, image the

705
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 3: way that they were being portrayed in the, media AND

706
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: i think that they were concerned if this went any

707
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 3: further that their law licenses would be in.

708
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: Jeopardy, Mario it's been a real joy for me to

709
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: get to know you and to work with you on,

710
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 1: cases And i'm just so happy that you have come

711
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: through this and risen above. It so with, that we're

712
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: going to go to closing, arguments where first of, ALL

713
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: i thank you from the bottom of my heart for

714
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 1: joining us and sharing your incredible. Story and Now i'm

715
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: going to kick back in my, chair turn my microphone,

716
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: off leave my headphones, on and close my eyes and

717
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: just listen to anything else you have to.

718
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 3: Say for as awful of a situation as it was

719
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: that happened to, me the silver lining was AS i

720
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: came out of this winning my civil rights lawsuit publicly

721
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 3: embarrassing the state's attorney's, office AND i am a successful.

722
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 3: Attorney in a weird, way this changed my life. Trajectory

723
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: it's almost like if you watched the Movie back to The.

724
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,479
Speaker 3: Future the moment That Brian carrick disappeared changed my entire.

725
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 3: Life and Now i'm sitting here as a criminal defense

726
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 3: attorney working in post conviction unit In Cook, county And

727
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 3: i've had a huge effect on a lot of my client's.

728
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 3: Lives i've had people That i've had life sentences, vacated

729
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,479
Speaker 3: and it's alarming that this could easily happen. Again there's

730
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 3: just so many incompetent people still involved and still in

731
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 3: positions of power in that very, county and SO i

732
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 3: try to talk to people about how important it is

733
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 3: to actually pay attention to your local. Elections the people

734
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 3: that you elect to be judge your state's attorney are

735
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 3: often more critical to you than electing the, president because

736
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: those are the people that can indict, you indict the wrong,

737
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 3: person or choose to not charge.

738
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: People it's a very very important. JOB i can't stress that.

739
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: Enough thank you for listening To Wrongful. Conviction you can

740
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: listen to this and all The lava For good podcasts

741
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: one week early by subscribing To lava For Good plus

742
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 1: On Apple. PODCASTS i want to thank our production, Team

743
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: Connor hall And Kathleen, fink as well as my fellow

744
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: executive Producers Jeff, Kempler Kevin, wartis And Jeff. Clyburn the

745
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: music in this production was supplied by three TIME oscar

746
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us across

747
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: all social media platforms At lava For good and At Wrongful.

748
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: Conviction you can also follow me On instagram At It's Jason.

749
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: Flamm Wrongful conviction is the production Of lava For Good

750
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: podcasts and association With Signal Company number one