1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never Told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: Kristens and I'm Caroline, and we're talking about women animators 4 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: at Disney today. And then the idea happened very much 5 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: by accident one evening on Twitter, when I had posted 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: on stuff Mom Never Told You dot tumbler dot com 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:37,279 Speaker 1: our Tumbler account, this ninety eight rejection letter that has 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: been spread around the internet. A lot of you listening 9 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: have probably seen it. But it's this form letter that 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: Disney sent out to women who applied to be animators, 11 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: basically saying and we'll read it verbatim in just a minute, 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: but it basically says, uh, sorry, women don't do really 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: any of the creative work, so good luck. Yeah, it 14 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: was harsh, like if I had received that letter, I 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: would have been so disheartened. But soon after I posted 16 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: it on Tumbler, got a tweet from a woman who 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: wrote her Masters on animation history, and she pointed out 18 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: that while yes, this is clearly a form letter that 19 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: Disney actually sent out, there's a lot of misconceptions about 20 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: women's roles at Classic Disney. Talking about back in the 21 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: day of Bambi, Dumbo, sleeping Beauty snow white, and she 22 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: said that that was pretty much standard at animation studios 23 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties period. And so I decided, you 24 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: know what, this sounds like pretty good podcast topic. It's 25 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: a great podcast topic. I was definitely interested in reading 26 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: all about how these women who were in the industry 27 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: and the roles they play. I mean, these women worked 28 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: so hard. The women who were actually hired by Disney 29 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: who loved the idea of working for Disney. People both 30 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: men and women who worked under him were just enamored 31 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: of the the idea of even working at Disney or 32 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: Disney's as they called it, like it was a department store. Yeah. Uh. 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: And it's actually good timing that we're talking about this, 34 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: because not too long ago, Meryl Streep raised a lot 35 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: of Hollywood eyebrows when she was giving this sort of 36 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: honorary speech for Emma Thompson in her work in Saving 37 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: Mister Banks, the recent film about Mary Poppins and Walt Disney, 38 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: and you know, Disney kind of made it in in 39 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: a way to personify Walt Disney. But in the speech 40 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: that Meryl Streep is giving at the National Board of 41 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: Review Awards ceremony, she calls Walt Disney a gender bigot 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: and a lot of other things that aren't too kind. 43 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: And the evidence that she uses, though to back up 44 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: this claim is a quote from Disney animator Ward Kimball, 45 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: who allegedly said that Walt Disney didn't trust women or cats, right, 46 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: And she also cited that thirty rejection letter as her reasoning. Um, 47 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: but yeah, Disney's attitude. It's people a lot of people 48 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: on the internet, um, both scholarly and not, argue about 49 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: Disney's attitude, attitude towards women. You know, was he this 50 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: gender bigott, as Meryl Streep says? Was he just a 51 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: product of his times? You know? Was he just afraid 52 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: of losing his workforce to marriage and babies. There's a 53 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: whole lot of back and forth about it. So we 54 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: also just wanted to take a minute, though, to shine 55 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: a light on all of these women animators who rarely 56 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: get any credit for these classic Disney films that were 57 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: probably a part of a lot of our childhoods. So 58 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: let's start off with that nineteen thirty eight Disney rejection letter. 59 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: What exactly did it say? So basically, this form letter 60 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: was telling the woman who had applied that, Okay, so 61 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: you can't, um, you can't be a major animator. Girls 62 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: are not considered for the training school. And then it 63 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: went on to explain that the work that was open 64 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: to women specifically consisted of tracing the characters on clear 65 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: celluloid sheets with India inc. And filling in the tracings 66 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: on the reverse side with paint according to directions. So 67 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: how hard could that be? Right? But when we were 68 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: reading this Vanity Fair article about women at Disney in 69 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: the early days, I mean, these are women who worked 70 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: hours and hours and hours doing a lot of the 71 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: what was called in between our work, so a lot 72 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: of the movement, a lot of the in between things 73 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: between all the big action, showing what Goofy was doing 74 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: or showing what Bamby was doing. And like that Twitter 75 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: follower pointed out this was standard policy at animation studios 76 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: at the time, which is a little bit nuts when 77 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: you consider that in the history of animation, it is 78 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,679 Speaker 1: actually a woman named Lotty Rainager who's credited with directing 79 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: one of the first feature length animated films in nineteen six, 80 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: and it's called The Adventures of Prince Ahmed, and her 81 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: animation is incredible. I mean she she actually uses rather 82 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: than drawing everything out as we would think of in 83 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 1: a Disney film, she actually cut out silhouettes that she 84 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: would move around on screen. And it was it was 85 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: insane what she was doing. And yet in the nineteen thirties, 86 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: oh no, no no, no, women, just no, you stick to 87 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: tracing and that's it, right. Yeah, It is interesting to 88 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: look at that nineteen six blip on the overall timeline 89 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,799 Speaker 1: of animation because okay, well, so obviously women are involved 90 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: in this from the get go, and they're interested in it, 91 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: and they can do it, and they can do an 92 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: awesome job at it. But we need to give you 93 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: some context. So let's do a brief riendown of like 94 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: a Disney timeline. So the Walt Disney Company itself was 95 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: started by brothers Walt and Roy in nineteen three out 96 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. Two years later Disney opens their famous 97 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: Hyperion Avenue studio location, and back then it was all 98 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: dudes as photos from the time a test. And two 99 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: years after that, in seven, we have the first of 100 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: as Kristen pointed out, the Nine Old Men, which were 101 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: basically uh, Disney's main animators, Les Clark hired on as 102 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: an in between er, and as we said, that's the 103 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: people who draw all the stuff that appears between the 104 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: normal action that is drawn by a lead animator, and 105 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: in the mascot of all mascots, Mickey Mouse is born. 106 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: So fast forward to ninety seven and you have the 107 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: release of Disney's first full length animated feature, Snow White 108 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: and the Seven Dwarves, and all of the supervising animation 109 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: is being done by those nine Old Men. And usually 110 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: when you hear about Classic Disney, and you hear about 111 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: the animations a lot of times up until recently at least, 112 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: it's been the nine Old Men who deservedly so get 113 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: a lot of credit for it. Um inside note the 114 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: reason why they were called the nine Old Men. That 115 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: was Walt Disney's joking nickname reference to them, riffing on 116 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: how the Supreme Court at the time was referred to, 117 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: I think by like FDR or something as the nine 118 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: Old Men, because hey, guess was nine nineties, and of 119 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: course there were no women in the Supreme Court. Uh So, 120 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: behind though that production of Snow White in the Seven Dwarves, 121 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: you have this almost army of these women who were 122 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: referred to as Waltz girls, who were doing all of 123 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: that in between her work, all the tracing, all of 124 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: the inking, a lot of the coloring and painting, essentially 125 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: taking these incredible drawings that the nine old men would 126 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: have been making and really bringing them to life on 127 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: those celluloids for the screen. Yeah, and I think it's 128 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: interesting the description of of why and how all these 129 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: women were recruited. I think it's interesting how it kind 130 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: of compares to World War Two when we hear about 131 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: women having to enter the workforce because there were so 132 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: many gaps left by men. I mean, obviously it's not 133 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: the same thing, but Walt Disney needed such a big 134 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: workforce to animate these these cutting edge knew never before 135 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: seeing types of films that he was like, we've got 136 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: to get some labor in here, and so he did. 137 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: He began recruiting these animation girls, many of whom had 138 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: not gone to college, but they were trained in sort 139 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: of animation classes. They sort of got, you know, trial 140 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: by fire when they were hired. And when you look 141 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: at the Disney animation system sort of at large, talking 142 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: about training, it was sort of almost like an apprentice 143 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: master set up, going on um. But for the women 144 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: where they would get kind of thrown in like, hey, 145 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: you look like you're young and healthy and can handle 146 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: long hours. Come on board and learn how to ink 147 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: and paint and watercolor. They might have gotten classes, but 148 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have gotten the same types of classes that 149 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: the men got. And the reason why they were immediately 150 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: funneled into ink and paint was because the inking training 151 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: was sort of the base level that took half the 152 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: time of animation training. And in that vanity fair oral 153 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 1: history of the women working on Snow White in particular, 154 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: some said that, I mean, they would have to bring 155 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: in some examples of their artwork, but some of them 156 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: said that they were hired simply because they looked healthy, 157 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: because Walt knew that it was going to be such 158 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: a grueling process that they were going to need to 159 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: be able to work insane hours. Because when you think 160 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: about it, this animation process back then was so time consuming. 161 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: So for instance, one girl could do eight to ten 162 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: cells per hour. That means that one hundred of these 163 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: employees could produce about one minute of film every day. 164 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: That's how tedious this whole inking and painting process was. Yeah, 165 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: and so at the height of snow White production, because 166 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: you have to think, I mean, the context of this 167 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: is that snow White was the first thing of its kind, 168 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: the first animated feature that was more than an hour, 169 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: and then involved all sorts of techniques that they were 170 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: almost developing on the fly. How do we give her 171 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: a better blush to her cheeks? Developing different techniques like that, 172 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: and so um. These people, both men and women, were 173 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: working eight hour work weeks. There was one woman who 174 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: was describing her life during that time, and she would 175 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: go home after a long day, walk into the closet 176 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: to take her clothes off, and it would suddenly occur 177 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: to her, am I coming or going? Am I getting 178 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: dressed for work? Or am I coming home from work? 179 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: Sometimes they would just take pillows to work, not only 180 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: to soften the hard wooden chair they were sitting in, 181 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: but so that they could take naps. Yeah, and just 182 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: to give you a sense of what exactly they were doing. 183 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: A Disney employment brochure at the time said, all inking 184 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: and painting of celluloids and all tracing done in the 185 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: studio is performed exclusively by a large staff of girls 186 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: known as the inkers and painters. This work exacting in 187 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: character calls for great skill in the handling of pen 188 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: and brush, and again it goes on to state, this 189 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: is the only department in the Disney studio open to 190 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: women artists, right and one and again another woman who 191 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: was interviewed in that Vanity Fair piece was talking about 192 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: how I did not smoke or drink or bold during 193 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: this time because you couldn't have your hands shake. But 194 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: you also couldn't have your lovely and glora will sweater 195 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: drifting like pieces of fuzz anywhere. And so the women 196 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: started having to wear aprons and so they didn't get 197 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: finger smudges on anything. They had to wear these white, 198 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: these thin white gloves and just cut off the fingertips 199 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: of their drawing hand. So, as reports go from the time, 200 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: if you were to just wander into the inking and 201 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: painting section, you would be like, wow, look at all 202 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: these high class dames working with their pin and ink. 203 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: And it's because though there were so many very young, 204 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: usually well dressed, attractive women in the ink and paint 205 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 1: department that it became known as the Nunnery. Because down 206 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: the line, after the release of Snow White and when 207 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: Disney opened It's new bigger and grander studios, while kind 208 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: of drew a line basically saying, hey, all you male 209 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: animators need to stay out of the nunnery. There's too 210 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: much canoodling going on. Because these women would also talk 211 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: about how in the brief breaks that they would get 212 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: from these eighty five hour workweeks of inking and painting 213 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: and tracing, et cetera, they would all go out onto 214 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: the front lawn and they would sometimes meet up secretly 215 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: with their animator bows underneath trees and they I don't 216 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: know if they'd smooched or not. It's unscandalous for the time. Yeah, 217 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: the one one guy described it as being like high 218 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: school where you would go out and a lot of 219 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: there were a lot of marriages that came out of 220 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: the Disney animation department, to the point where a competiti 221 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 1: are in there like materials to try to attract employees. 222 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: Even said that like, uh, you know, Disney Disney over 223 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: there with all their office romances, they're not getting enough 224 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 1: work done because they were so famous for having all 225 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: of these people get married, which makes sense when you're 226 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: spending too many freaking intense hours with people. Well, then 227 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: there's a question too, of whether or not Walt Disney 228 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: took advantage of the fact that he had dozens upon 229 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: dozens of very young women working for him. And there 230 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: are some rumors that, yeah, absolutely there would have been 231 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: some canoodling. I keep saying canoodling on Walt Disney's couch, 232 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: But there were other women who reported back, No, no, 233 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: we always thought of him as uncle Walt. He was 234 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: very professional. We never would have crossed that line. Well, 235 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: he married an animator, I mean he married one of 236 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: the one of the girls quote unquote from the early days, 237 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: back when like everybody was like cheers, everybody knew your name. 238 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: And well, Disney, though definitely has his controverse these involving 239 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: his thoughts on race, gender, et cetera. There are some 240 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: quotes that are typically trotted out in defense of his 241 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: position on women. So you know, we have to we 242 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: have to mention this. In one he said, if a 243 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: woman can do the work, well, she's worth as much 244 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: as a man. The girl artists have the right to 245 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: expect the same chances for advancement as men, and I 246 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: honestly believe they may eventually, thank you, contribute something to 247 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: this business that men never could or would and this 248 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: he was apparently saying to the male artists working on Dumbo. 249 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: And many years later, in nineteen fifty nine, Walt was 250 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: quoted as saying that women are the best judges of anything. 251 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: We turn out. Their taste is very important. They are 252 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: the theater goers. They are the ones who dragged the 253 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: men in. If the women like it, to heck with 254 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: the men, which sounds like, you know, advertising strategy, baseline 255 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: advertising strategy today where people are like, if you target 256 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: the women who are control of the pocketbooks at home, 257 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: then the men will follow exactly. And that's what those 258 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: two quotes are. You know, a couple of reasons why 259 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: when Meryl Street made the comment about him being a 260 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: gender bigot, they took offense saying, well, no, he actually 261 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: was on record as saying that, you know, women could 262 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: be anything that they wanted to be in Disney, but 263 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: breaking through the celluloid ceiling was no joke. I mean, 264 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: you can say that it's a product of his time, 265 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: but nevertheless, it's still kind of on the mark that 266 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: there was a specific role that they were allowed to do, 267 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: and it was it was kind of limited to that point. 268 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: But it seems like once he saw the work that 269 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: these women were doing, and he spotted some of the 270 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: talent among them. There were a few, emphasis on a 271 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: few opportunities for advancement, particularly when World War Two happens, because, 272 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: just like in pretty much all other realms of employment 273 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: in the US, a bunch of and leave and that 274 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: opens up jobs for women, and so in in fact, 275 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: the inc and Paint Department employees were invited to submit 276 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: Donald Duck drawings for an animation department consideration, and out 277 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: of that three women were chosen to be trained as 278 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: in between ers and background artists during World War Two. 279 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: And there were a number of other women too who 280 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: had been working, for instance, on snow White, who were 281 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: put on government funded Disney jobs. There was a lot 282 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: of Disney pro us propaganda that was coming out at 283 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: the time, and so there were these kind of top 284 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: secret animation missions that some of the women interviewed in 285 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair were involved with, but a lot of it 286 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: was very shrouded in secrecy, and half the time they 287 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: didn't really know what they were working on. Anyway, it 288 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: turned out to be Donald Duck making fun of Hitler. Yeah, 289 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: everybody plays a part, I guess. So before we introduce 290 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: you to some of these celluloid shattering ladies who worked 291 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: at Disney. Let's take a quick break, and so when 292 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: we left off, we had laid the groundwork for what 293 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: it was like for women working at Disney in the 294 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and early nineteen forties, and essentially you were 295 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: relegated to the ink and paint department. But there were 296 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: some notable names who broke through that cellu Lloyd ceiling. Yeah, 297 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: so we have Bianca Majolie, who was Walt Disney's story 298 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: departments first female employee. She came up with the idea 299 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: for Elmer Elephant, which was sort of the precursor to 300 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: Dumbo that was back in nineteen thirty six, and it's 301 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: sort of credited as I mean, Walt Disney was totally 302 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: enamored with the idea of talking about how her story, 303 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: all the humor of her story was really grounded in 304 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: this heartwarming, kind of almost serious story, and that's what 305 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 1: made the humor not seem brittle or fragile, but actually heartwarming. 306 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: Really yeah, yeah, and uh. In addition to the incan 307 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: pain department, the story department was another one where, even 308 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: though it didn't say so in the Disney brochure, there 309 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: were more opportunities for women to jump on board because 310 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: what was surprise kind of at Bianca's idea to humanize 311 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: this elephant. It was like an angle of storytelling that 312 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: seemed particularly female to him, like, oh, well, of course 313 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,239 Speaker 1: a woman will go in and, you know, and and 314 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 1: make something very very tender and kind, and so that's 315 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: that's a nice element to add to these stories that 316 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: we're trying to tell. Um But then there's also Sylvia 317 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: Moberley Holland, who first was working as a sketch artist 318 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: at Universal and then joined on at Disney in and 319 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: she eventually led the story tom for The Waltz of 320 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: the Flowers and Fantasia, And that was something that was 321 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: interesting for me to learn that I didn't realize about 322 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: the animation process. Is that a lot of unlike a 323 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: film with people in it, where you have this actress 324 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: playing the role of this throughout the film, when it 325 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: comes to animation, the animators are credited with, you know, 326 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: maybe specific characters, but also just sequences in the film. 327 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: It's not like you have one person doing one major 328 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: thing throughout the entire movie. So it might not sound 329 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: like a big deal that mobilely Holland just led the 330 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: story team for this Waltz of the Flowers, but that 331 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: was very significant. I mean Phantasia was a massive undertaking 332 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: for them as well. Absolutely, I mean it is pretty intense. 333 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: I mean Fantasia might have Moda scared me as a kid. 334 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 1: I did not get Fantasia as a child. I was like, 335 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 1: this is if I had known what Trippy meant. I 336 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: was thinking, this is really tripp like Mommy is a 337 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: bad dream. Okay, Well then you have Retta Scott, who 338 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:11,479 Speaker 1: I think, um, I like. I like her her pluck, 339 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: I guess because she was assumed to be She's very tiny, 340 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: tiny person, blonde, curly hair, freckles, very happy with a 341 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: glint in her eye. People said she was the one 342 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: who was responsible for the scary, vicious hunting dogs in Bamby. 343 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: And when some of the dude animators saw these dogs, 344 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,719 Speaker 1: they were like, ah, there's no way it. Chick did this, Like, 345 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure it was some burly man over the animation department. Nope, 346 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: it was smiley little Retta. Yeah. And it was those 347 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: hunting dogs that got their attention and eventually got her 348 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: the promotion into animation because she was first hired on 349 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: with Disney again in the story department in Night, but 350 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: in Bamby she became Disney's first credited female animator on 351 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: a feature film. And so whenever you hear about women 352 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: at Disney, the history of women in animation at Disney, 353 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: Redda Scott comes up over and over again. I mean, 354 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: she is the one that you hear really breaking through 355 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: that celluloid feeling because she was up there with, I mean, 356 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: alongside those nine old men animating, not just doing the 357 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: in between work, not just doing the inking and painting. 358 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: So we also have Mary Blair, who, along with her 359 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: husband Lee, worked at Disney. She started in ninety and 360 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: did some art for Dumbo and then moved on to 361 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: serving as art supervisor and color stylist for the film 362 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: Salutos Amigos, the Three caballeras Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland, and 363 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: Peter Pan. Yeah, I mean, Mary Blair probably of all 364 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: the women of this time, I mean, and even up 365 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: to contemporary Disney, has been one of, if not the 366 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: most influential, because it was really her art aesthetic that 367 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: put Disney like, gave Disney animation a little bit more 368 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: of a modernist Flair, and through September, the Walt Disney 369 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: Museum is honoring her with an exhibit called Magic Color 370 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: Flair The World of Mary Blair, and the museum explains 371 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: that quote of all his artists, this female artist was 372 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: Walt's favorite, and he allowed her to have as significant 373 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: an impact on postwar Disney style as Albert heard her 374 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: had in the nineteen thirties. And they go on to 375 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: talk about how her concept paintings inspired and influenced the 376 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 1: look and style of all of the South American film 377 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: She had actually traveled to South America with Walt um 378 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: as part of sort of a propaganda mission via FDR's 379 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: Good Neighbor Policy. UM. So it was sort of like 380 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: visual sourcing to go down there, and so that influenced 381 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: the movies like Sluts, Amigos and The Three Caballeros. Um. 382 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: But it was also her aesthetic that she brought into Cinderella, 383 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: Alison wonder Land and Peter Pan. I mean, think about 384 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: those movies, how distinctive they look. And that is Mary Blair. 385 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: And isn't she the one who Walt made the comment 386 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: about Mary knows colors that I've never even thought of, 387 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: Like she she has a different eye from the rest 388 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: of us, and it was that same aesthetic that ended 389 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: up influencing Say what you will about this, but it's 390 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: a small world for the sixty five New York's World Fair. 391 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I know the song is in everyone's head now, 392 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: but when you think about Disney attractions, even though yes, 393 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: that song is oh god, yeah, and it is now 394 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: in my head, um, but as an attraction, it's almost timeless, 395 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: like we still associate it so much with Disney, although 396 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it's all Pirates of the Caribbean now, Yeah, 397 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: I I would have no idea. I don't like crowds, 398 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: and I don't like sticky things, and I feel like 399 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: everything at theme parks is sticky, too much juice and 400 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: cotton andy. But okay, so we are talking a lot 401 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: about Disney, and I think we we can move forward 402 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: now into the modern day animation landscape because I feel 403 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: like it's getting better, even though there still is a 404 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: huge gender gap and kind of a gap in a 405 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: perception about what women can do. Yeah. One of the 406 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: most challenging aspects of this podcast topic was that finding 407 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: sources on women and animation were surprisingly sparse, even though 408 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: if you look at cal Arts, which is the premier 409 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: animation school in the US, Like, if you want to 410 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: be an animator, you go to cal Arts, and the 411 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: animation students are you know, it's fifty percent women men. 412 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: And yet if you look at the Animation Guild, only 413 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: sevent of its members are female. But that might have 414 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: something to do with women, at least according to Linda Saminski, 415 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: who was Cartoon Networks VP of Original Animation. According to her, 416 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: women are likelier to pursue independent rather than big studio animation. Yeah, 417 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: and I mean part of that, if I had to guess, 418 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: would have to do with the fact that a lot 419 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: of women traditionally haven't been in the higher ranks of 420 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 1: animation studios from the get go, as we've seen. And 421 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: so when you have a setup like that in any industry, 422 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: I feel like people who are generally marginalized are more 423 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: likely to go sort of that independent, kookie creative route. Yeah. 424 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: And before I forget, I just want to mention that 425 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: I was listening to one of my favorite podcasts recently, 426 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: Professor blast Off, and they were interviewing animator Sarah Pocock, 427 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 1: who if you are a fan of Cosmos hosted by 428 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: Neil de grass Tyson. She does all of the animation 429 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: for that and I thought of her when I was 430 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: looking at the animation from the episode of Cosmos Us 431 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: in which he highlights, you know, unsung women in science, 432 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: and I thought of Sarah Pocock and the fact that 433 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: this was a woman in animation doing these animations about 434 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: unsung women, and how you know, it was just kind 435 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: of all times in your head exploded with joy into 436 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: the cosmos. Yes, it's true, um. But Marge Dean, who's 437 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: the co president of Women in Animation, was recently talking 438 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: about this issue in two thousand thirteen and and the 439 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: question was, you know, is their gender gap in animation? 440 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: Is there a lack of women at the top, And 441 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: she basically said, yes, absolutely there is. And the reason 442 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: she gave for it is she says, I think it 443 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: comes partly from cultural assumptions that have been passed down 444 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: that think women are not creative, smart or funny, or 445 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: because women aren't encouraged to take the artistic lead, or 446 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: maybe it's because the folks in charge don't try to 447 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 1: find women to fill creative roles. It's not a priority 448 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: for them to rectify the imbalance, it's any and all 449 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: of those things. So it sounds like we still have 450 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: a lot of nineteen thirties Disney mentality still afloat in 451 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: the industry, but there's definitely progress being made despite hiccups 452 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: like the two thousand eleven incident with Brenda Chapman and 453 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: the movie Brave. Right, so we all know Brave with 454 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: the amazing redheaded lead character Merida Um. But yeah, Brenda 455 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: Chapman was the first woman to serve as head of 456 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: story on a Disney film, which was The Lion King, 457 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: and she spent eight years at DreamWorks Animation, where she 458 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: was one of three directors on The Prince of Egypt 459 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,479 Speaker 1: before moving to Pixar. But when she's working on Brave, 460 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: she ended up getting fired from directing it, and which 461 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: is kind of a bummer considering that Brave was an 462 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: idea that she had been working on for about six 463 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: years and it was inspired by her daughter, so it 464 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: seemed like a very personal project. Maybe it was so 465 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: pers sinal that it got in the way of the work, 466 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: who knows, but her getting pushed off to the side 467 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: definitely cause sparked a lot of conversation about the state 468 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: of women and animation in big Hollywood, even though she 469 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: still received a co directing credit, So when they got 470 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: the Oscar, she also got an Oscar. But it's certainly, 471 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: you know, it didn't make animation or Pixar particularly look 472 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 1: any better because Pixar had also gotten some flak for 473 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: it's under representation of just strong female characters in general 474 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: on screen, and also the roles of women behind the 475 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: camera as well. Yeah, we'll speaking more about Pixar. The 476 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: same thing happened to Jan Pinkava, who was directing Rattatui, 477 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: which came out in two thousand and seven before Brad 478 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: Bird came in and took it over and ended up 479 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: winning an Oscar. Yeah, I didn't know that about Rattatui, 480 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: and I love that film. It's very cute, a little 481 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: a little bit of a bummer, but as I mean, 482 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: another reason why we are talking about women in animation 483 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: right now is because Jennifer Lee, who directed Frozen, is 484 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: getting so much press right now because Frozen is now 485 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: the first movie animated or not directed by a woman 486 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: to earn one billion dollars. So essentially everybody's saying, hey, look, 487 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: Jennifer Lee did it with Frozen, of film that is 488 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: starring like two female protagonists starring as though they're real women. 489 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: Um but although I'm sure they are very real to 490 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: a lot of girls who watched the film, but essentially 491 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: they're they're saying that, hey, okay, Jennifer Lee can do 492 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: this then and and make a billion with a B 493 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: dollars office movie, then the sky can be the limit 494 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: surely for women in animation. And she's also not the 495 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: first woman to make her mark in terms of box 496 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: office returns on an animated film. That's right. Back in eleven, 497 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: Jennifer you Nelson will us in charge of Kung Fu 498 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: Panda two, which, after making six hundred and forty five 499 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: million dollars worldwide, was until Jennifer Lee came along, the 500 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: highest grossing movie to be directed by a woman, and 501 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: in an interview, Nelson was talking about how like, yeah, 502 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: I'm a woman in animation. I just puttered along doing 503 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: my thing, and I didn't really pay any heed to 504 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: the gender imbalanced thing. Yeah, and at the time too. 505 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: She also became the first woman to ever direct an 506 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: animated feature for a major studio by herself, so unlike, 507 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: for instance, Chapman co directing Prince of Egypt. This was 508 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: Jennifer you Nelson on her own and she had worked 509 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: on Kung Fu Panda one Part one, and the head 510 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: of dream Works Jeffrey Katzenberg actually hand picked her out 511 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: of that crew to lead up Kung Fu Panda too, 512 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: because apparently Katzenberg loves quote working with strong women like 513 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: he is all about how being women at the top 514 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: in DreamWorks animation it's sort of um. He actually called 515 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: out Disney in a quote to The Hollywood Reporter on 516 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: a story about how cent of DreamWorks animation producers or women, 517 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: and a lot of their sea level leadership also women. 518 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: He said, historically the animation industry was completely dominated by men, Disney, 519 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: the Nine Old Men. It was a male world until recently. 520 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: The whole field of engineering software technology was also dominated 521 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: by men. It's changing, and it's changing rapidly, especially at 522 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: our place, where almost every director of our films as 523 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: a woman, and all the female directors directed at dream Works. 524 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: Oh and excuse me, that was him talking to the 525 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: l a times. Nonetheless, a pretty incredible quote to hear 526 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: from someone at that level basically calling out Disney and 527 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: the Nine Old Men and say, hey, you know what 528 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: I'm doing it a little differently, and then he drops 529 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: the mic for the inking pen. But I wonder, though, 530 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: whether the environment for women working at Disney is different 531 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: than women working at DreamWorks, whether that trickles down to 532 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: the day to day process at all. I couldn't find. 533 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: And maybe it's just because Disney. I'm sure it is 534 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: very good with their communications and sort of their their 535 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: message public messaging about what it's like to work inside 536 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: the company. I didn't find any insider reports on how 537 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: much the company had progressed from the days when women 538 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: would have been relegated to the nunnery of ink and paint, 539 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,479 Speaker 1: Whether there are whether they are a lot more gender 540 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: blind than they used to be. I'm sure they are 541 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: at least somewhat. It has to be somewhat better. But um, 542 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, I know we should never read the comments ever, 543 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: but I was reading the comments under some of these 544 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: stories about women in animation today, and there were a 545 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: lot of people who were saying, like, what is so 546 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: important about the push to get women animators up in 547 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: front of young girls? Like who cares? And I'm like, really, 548 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: I feel like you you know how to answer this 549 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: question if you think about it, and it's it's going 550 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,959 Speaker 1: to take people like Jeffrey Katzenberg and like high powered, 551 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: top tier directors like Jennifer you Nelson getting up in 552 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: front of people being successful, being famous and doing it 553 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: to show girls that they can do it too. But also, 554 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: more importantly or not than that, is showing people who 555 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: are in the box office, who are in charge of 556 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: raking in the dough from all of these films, that 557 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: women can successfully make a high grossing movie. Yeah. I 558 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: mean it's money that matters. Yeah, it's money that matters. 559 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: And and it just seems like Jeffrey Catsenberg is willing 560 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: to put his money where his mouth is. Yeah. And 561 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: I mean, even going back though to those early days 562 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: of Disney with snow White. You mentioned earlier in the podcast, 563 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: the blush coloring on snow White's rosy cheek. That was 564 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: the little brain child of one of the women in 565 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: incon Paint, I believe, who said, oh, she looks so pale, 566 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: she needs a little bit of blushing. Her sounds like 567 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: my mother, You look so pale, you need blush, her 568 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: you need she needs a little bit of blusher. But 569 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 1: that's why, in a way, to diversity is a good thing, 570 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: because you bring in different perspectives and hopefully offer a 571 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: better rounded story for your audience. That is a noble goal, 572 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 1: as is a good flush on the cheeks. Exactly need 573 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: a good flush on because that's hey, that's how people 574 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: got hired at Disney back in the day. So yeah, 575 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: I mean, And and if anything, I hope that we've 576 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: done our part a little bit to shine some light 577 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: on those women, so many of them who helped bring 578 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: those early Disney stories to life, because it's such a 579 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: massive undertaking. And while yeah, the nine old men what 580 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: at a cool old cracker jack group of men, but 581 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: there were you know, a hundred women behind them, inking 582 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: and filling in and tracing and painting and hoping that 583 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: they're Angora sweater fluff didn't get on any of the cells, 584 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: which that did. Yeah, I mean, that happened, yea. So 585 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: now I'm sure there are some Disney buffs listening who 586 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: have a lot of history to fill us in on, 587 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: because this, by no means was a history of Disney, 588 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,919 Speaker 1: nor was it intended to be. But if you have 589 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: some pertinent Disney insights to give us who want to 590 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: hear from you. Also, women animators listening, I know there 591 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: are some of you out there who are listening right now. 592 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: Let us know what it's like for you. Is there 593 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: still this uh? Do you sense a gender gap at 594 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: all in the profession? Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com 595 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: is where you can email us. You can also tweet 596 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and 597 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: we've got a couple of messages to share with you 598 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: right now. Soga let her here from Amy about our 599 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: military spouses episodes. She writes, I'm a huge fan of 600 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: the podcast and as an army wife of three years, 601 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: your latest episode about military spouses was particularly interesting. You 602 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: nailed it when discussing spouses being un or under employed. 603 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: When I got my teaching degree, I never thought that 604 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: finding a job would be an issue because everybody needs teachers, 605 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: right But after moving to our latest post, it's been 606 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,879 Speaker 1: a struggle. I actually found a job that I love, 607 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: working for a university, but it's only part time and 608 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: offers no room for growth. So I'm still sending out 609 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: resumes and going on interviews hoping to find a job 610 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,479 Speaker 1: as a teacher, even though the job market is hyper saturated. Here. Also, 611 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 1: I wanted to add that I'm thankful you included information 612 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: about reintegration the time after deployment when soldiers return home. 613 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: After my husband's first deployment, we really struggled. Everyone else 614 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 1: sees the joyful tears of a homecoming and think it's 615 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: happily ever after. For those in the marriage, that happy 616 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: ever after takes a lot of work. We had vastly 617 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 1: different life experiences, and learning to just be took time. 618 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: Throw in two moves in less than a year, time 619 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: apart for field training, in schools and the usual unpredictable 620 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: challenges of life, and it was ugly. We finally got 621 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: into a rhythm and my husband was sent back to 622 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: Afghanistan in February of this year. The upside is that 623 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: when he comes home this time, I'll have a better 624 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: idea of what to expect. Thanks so much for delicately 625 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: handling a potentially loaded topic. This episode was chock full 626 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: of good stuff and really respectful. So thanks Amy, and 627 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: good luck with your husband's deployment. Best wishes for his 628 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: safe return home. And I have a letter here from 629 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: Anne who says I was a military spouse down in 630 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: Fort Stuart, Georgia for about twelve years. My husband got 631 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: out of the military and we moved back to South Dakota. 632 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: We have had to deal with numerous deployments overseas, three 633 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: times to Iraq and twice to Afghanistan. Just about everything 634 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: you spoke about rang true to me. I also had 635 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: to deal with alienation from many of the spouses as well, 636 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: because I was one of the few who had no children. 637 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: Most activities are centered around the children, so when you 638 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 1: don't have any, you don't get invited to anything except 639 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,879 Speaker 1: for maybe once or twice a year. The rules were 640 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: that everyone was supposed to be included in things, but 641 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: this rarely happened. The health care benefits and financial aid 642 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: in the military were extremely helpful many times, especially for 643 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: a newlywed couple just starting out on their own. It 644 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: could provide stability, learning, responsibility, and independence from family. For 645 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,280 Speaker 1: those things I was grateful. Due to the constant danger 646 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: of him being deployed kept me from wanting to have 647 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: children in case anything happened. I lost a parent at 648 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: a young age and didn't wish for my child to 649 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: go through that. Luckily, we got through everything and he 650 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: is safe and we are expecting our first child, a daughter, 651 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: in August. One of the things that got me through 652 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: the last few deployments was the numerous podcasts at how 653 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 1: Stuff Works. Thank you guys, all of you so much 654 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: for helping keep my mind busy and from stressing out 655 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: too much. So thank you, and and I'm glad you 656 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: guys are doing well. And congratulations on your baby, and 657 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at 658 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: Discovery dot com is our email address and to find 659 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: links to all of our social media's videos, podcasts, and blogs, 660 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: there's one place to go, and it's stuff Mom Never 661 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:10,280 Speaker 1: told You dot com. For more on this and thousands 662 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:20,760 Speaker 1: of other topics, does it how stuff works dot com. 663 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: Netflix streams TV shows and movies directly to your home, 664 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 1: saving you time, money, and hassle. As a Netflix member, 665 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: you can instantly watch TV episodes and movies streaming directly 666 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: to your computer, tablet, mobile device, or gaming console. Get 667 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,839 Speaker 1: a free thirty day trial membership. Go to Netflix dot 668 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: com slash mom and sign up now.