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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for

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Speaker 1: tuning in. Shout out to our super producer, mister Max Williams.

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Speaker 1: Shout out, Yeah, I'm putting some italics on his name, apparently,

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Speaker 1: consider yourself.

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Speaker 2: Shout it out.

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Speaker 1: Shout it Mouse by none other than Ben Bullen and

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Speaker 1: mister Noel Brown. Noel, how we doing.

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Speaker 2: You're pretty good. Yeah. We just had a marathon on

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Speaker 2: weird sounding diseases.

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Speaker 1: We had a long episode about diseases wherein we occasionally

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Speaker 1: mentioned disease.

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Speaker 2: We did occasion and then, man, you think of the

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Speaker 2: things people learn from that about the California raisins. If

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Speaker 2: you weren't of a certain generation that might have passed

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Speaker 2: you by entirely, you're welcome. The Internet.

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Speaker 1: History is always closer than it appears in the review mirror,

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Speaker 1: which is why like that dinosaur in Jurassic Park, Yes,

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Speaker 1: like uh this, this is why we're going somewhere with

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Speaker 1: this because you may remember, not too long ago, folks,

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Speaker 1: we explored a history of scientists who are horrifically persecuted

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Speaker 1: for daring to make the world a slightly better place.

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Speaker 1: Dare to dream, dare to dream, and the authorities will

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Speaker 1: burn you at the stake, is what we learned. You

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Speaker 1: know the musical Pippin. Uh no, let's wait wait wait,

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Speaker 1: why is this sound?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking like Pippy longs Pippin.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't it have like a song about like the impossible

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Speaker 2: dream or something like that?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Is that where the dream the impossible dream comes from?

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Speaker 2: I think it is. No, it's corner of the sky

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Speaker 2: or impossible dreams, something else unrelated to any of this stuff.

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Speaker 2: What are we talking about today, Ben.

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Speaker 1: Today we are continuing Part two of scientists who were persecuted,

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Speaker 1: and heads up, folks, we're getting into some kind of

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Speaker 1: disturbing stuff. One of the most famously persecuted scientists Alan Turing.

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Speaker 1: Alan Turing was he's a little different from some of

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Speaker 1: our part one folks, because he was not persecuted like

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Speaker 1: you know, the way Galileo was persecuted for figuring out

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Speaker 1: parts of astronomy. Wasn't persecuted for what he studied, nor

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Speaker 1: his areas of expertise, but for his very identity who

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Speaker 1: he was.

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Speaker 2: Alan Turing was an Englishman born June twenty third of

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Speaker 2: nineteen twelve in London Town, England, UK. He was a

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Speaker 2: British mathematician and logician, which is not the same as

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Speaker 2: being a magician, but it's magic in its own way.

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Speaker 2: He probably could tell you how magnets worked. He made

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Speaker 2: serious contributions to things like mathematics, logic philosophy, which I

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Speaker 2: always think is an interesting kissing cousin to science. Right,

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Speaker 2: mathematical biology what who even knew? That was a thing?

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Speaker 2: That sounds way too complicated for me?

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Speaker 1: I mean, is does that mean there's also biological math?

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Speaker 2: I think it must mean that has to mean that,

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Speaker 2: and also cryptanalysis. So he was really into like code

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Speaker 2: breaking and like stuff like that. Right, yes, that was

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Speaker 2: a big part of his relationship with history, right absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. He was the child of a civil servant and

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Speaker 1: he was fortunate enough to attend a top private school.

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Speaker 1: He studied mathematics in Cambridge in nineteen thirty one. He

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Speaker 1: graduated in thirty four and as soon as he got

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Speaker 1: out of Cambridge he snagged a fellowship at King's College.

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Speaker 1: And this was all based on his top notch research

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Speaker 1: in things like probability theory. He wrote some brain through

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Speaker 1: papers break through papers for the boffins for the people

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Speaker 1: who are better at math than we are.

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Speaker 2: Heads defencil net geeks.

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Speaker 1: The title of what is banging papers is uncomputable numbers

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Speaker 1: with an application to the unshy Dung's problem.

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Speaker 2: That's good, yeah, and and and Schidung's problem. Problem. There

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Speaker 2: we go, what does that mean? Uh, decision problem. Leave

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Speaker 2: it to the Germans to make something as innocuous as

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Speaker 2: that sound like being bludgeoned.

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Speaker 1: It's fantastic that language just agglomerates everything into one word,

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Speaker 1: you know. So he gets recommended for publication based on

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Speaker 1: this Based on the strength of this paper, and other

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Speaker 1: legends in the game are co signing them left and right,

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Speaker 1: folks like the American mathematical logician Alonzo Church. And this stuff,

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Speaker 1: as esoteric as it may sound, it has some real

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Speaker 1: importance for the urging science that we will later call computing.

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Speaker 1: So this guy's instrumental in the steps toward all the

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Speaker 1: things that make it possible for us to have a

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Speaker 1: podcast today. He moves to Princeton University in nineteen thirty six.

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Speaker 1: He's going to get his pH d in mathematical logic

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Speaker 1: under the guidance of the dude who you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of tapped him in earlier. Now, he despite being a

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Speaker 1: very very smart person, like many other very smart people

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Speaker 1: in the world, he had no idea that World War

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Speaker 1: II was on the way.

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Speaker 2: No, he certainly didn't, but it would alter the course

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Speaker 2: of his life, along with the course of history as

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Speaker 2: we know it, and he personally played a huge hand

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Speaker 2: and altering the course of that conflict and how it

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Speaker 2: pan out. I mentioned earlier that he was you know,

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Speaker 2: he really did. It contained multitudes. He contributed so much

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Speaker 2: to like modern computing, and most importantly, he was a

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Speaker 2: super important part of cracking the Enigma code, which was

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Speaker 2: something created by this massive computer system called the Enigma machine.

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Speaker 2: Again one of these kind of almost clockwork type machines

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Speaker 2: that took up an entire room early computing, and it

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Speaker 2: was a German cipher device that to this day is

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Speaker 2: considered one of the most advanced cipher machines of all time.

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Speaker 1: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He goes back to King's College in nineteen thirty eight,

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Speaker 1: and from there he goes on to join the Government

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Speaker 1: Code and Cipher school. Think of it like kind of

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Speaker 1: link their essay or something. And war breaks out with

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Speaker 1: Germany in September nineteen thirty nine, he relocates to the

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Speaker 1: wartime headquarters of the Code and Cipher School and.

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Speaker 2: By the way, at Bletchley Park, Buckingham Shear, which is

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Speaker 2: the most British sounding location ever has existed.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, and he helps develop this thing called the bumb

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Speaker 1: which is a huge piece of technology that Allied forces

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Speaker 1: were using to just cipher those German codes.

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Speaker 2: Is back in the day when like the kind of

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Speaker 2: computing power that we can now hold in the palm

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Speaker 2: of our hand would take up rooms, you know, these

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Speaker 2: massive punch card type computers right.

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Speaker 1: Right, and so this was kind of like a in

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Speaker 1: a way, it's a battle of mechanisms. It's like a

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Speaker 1: robot battle in very early days, because the Germans were

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Speaker 1: using some kind of cipher machine, it's Enigma machine to

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Speaker 1: create this code that they just couldn't crack until touring

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Speaker 1: came along. By nineteen forty two cryptanalysis at Bletchley Park,

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Speaker 1: we're getting thirty nine thousand different messages every month because

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Speaker 1: the group text during wartime is just crazy, really yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they were decoding these the number kept rising. It

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Speaker 1: got to eighty four thousand different messages per month. That's

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Speaker 1: two messages every single minute, day and night, and that

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Speaker 1: year nineteen forty two, Turing figures out how to break

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Speaker 1: like how to break this code, and to your point,

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Speaker 1: in a very real way, he may have turned the

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Speaker 1: tide of the war.

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Speaker 2: That's right. So in nineteen forty five, after the war

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Speaker 2: has ended, he gets recruited to the National Physical Laboratory

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Speaker 2: or the NPL in London to create sounds almost redundance,

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Speaker 2: doesn't it. But it isn't because a lot of early

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Speaker 2: computers were more mechanical, like you said, to create an

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Speaker 2: electronic computer.

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Speaker 1: Ah, an electronic computer, which sounds a bit redundant today,

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Speaker 1: like ATM machine or ven number. But it was a

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Speaker 1: new thing. It was a hot, new cool thing.

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Speaker 2: And because because it's early ones, like you said, we're mechanisms.

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Speaker 2: They were almost like clockwork, cards, tubes, gears, tubes, all

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Speaker 2: of that stuff, I feel like maybe not even tubes

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Speaker 2: as much. I mean, because tubes are more electrical. I

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Speaker 2: almost think I almost think they were like almost like

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Speaker 2: like like automataw like wind up different one wear.

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Speaker 1: An audio podcast. So the problem is, you know, this

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Speaker 1: is a very competitive space.

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Speaker 2: Yah point, It's like a space race kind of situation

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Speaker 2: exactly like a space race situation.

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Speaker 1: So the National Physical Laboratory the NPL. They lose this

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Speaker 1: race to build the first working electronic digital computer that

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Speaker 1: has a stored program. Luckily they're beaten by some allies,

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Speaker 1: by some friendly fire. The people who do get across

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Speaker 1: the finish line first are the Royal Society Computing Machine

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Speaker 1: Laboratory in Manchester.

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Speaker 2: So not too bad, No exactly. That's something they say

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Speaker 2: of the rivalry between their related football clubs.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, totally different bloodbath, yes, they So Turing

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Speaker 1: is feeling kind of down. He's like MPL is delaying.

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Speaker 1: We're moving so slow, you guys. So he gets a

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Speaker 1: gig as the deputy director of the Computing Machine Laboratory

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Speaker 1: in that year. Funny note here there is no actual director.

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Speaker 1: There's nowhere at the top.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it seems like, you know, it's like

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Speaker 2: sort of like these these knobs go to eleven, you know,

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Speaker 2: why not just make ten one? Louder is the deputy director.

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Speaker 2: If there's no actual director, isn't he just the director? Sorry?

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Speaker 2: They were very into secrets at this time. They were

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Speaker 2: dealing with code breaking and the like. He arrived in

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Speaker 2: Manchester and started making some pretty significant contributions to the

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Speaker 2: development of this technology using a system that he designed

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Speaker 2: called an input output system.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and this is incredibly important stuff. We're not

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Speaker 1: going to get too in the weeds here.

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Speaker 2: To understand any of it, right, just to be honest.

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Speaker 1: But we are going to establish this. He is recognized

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Speaker 1: as one of the you could call them founding fathers

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Speaker 1: of artificial intelligence, modern cognitive to science, and he was

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Speaker 1: one of the early popularizers of the theory that the

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Speaker 1: human brain is its own kind of digital computing machine.

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Speaker 1: Oh it works biological math.

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Speaker 2: Oh, there we go. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I'm

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Speaker 2: a bit of a synthesizer nerd I may have mentioned

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Speaker 2: a time or two and recently started diving into the

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Speaker 2: very money pit ish world of modular synthesizers. And there

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Speaker 2: is a very popular type of module called a touring

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Speaker 2: turing machine. And what it does is it generates random

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Speaker 2: voltage that can create what's called generative music. So it's

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Speaker 2: a very It basically allows you to set the terms

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Speaker 2: for a system that then kind of creates random notes

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Speaker 2: and rhythms based on sort of whatever conditions you set.

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Speaker 2: So very much this kind of early thinking around technology

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Speaker 2: and logic very much still at play today, you know,

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Speaker 2: in the world of you know, music production and the

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Speaker 2: ai of Like you said, I mean, it's obviously very

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Speaker 2: much he is. It's more of like he is the

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Speaker 2: philosophical father of a lot of this stuff, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know. He was kicking these ideas

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Speaker 1: that sound almost metaphysical. He's saying, when the human is born,

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Speaker 1: the core tex is an unorganized machine. Cool, and we

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Speaker 1: can train it into a universal machine and then just

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Speaker 1: to be safe, he said, or something like it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it is cool.

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Speaker 2: That is a very forward thinking way of looking at it.

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Speaker 2: He seems like a good. Hang he really did? It

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Speaker 2: does seem like a good he Was he a secret

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Speaker 2: drunk or something? Did he have problematic elements to his personality?

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Speaker 1: The British government thought, so, ah, I see, I see,

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Speaker 1: We're getting to the person I don't think they. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if they had secret drunks back then everyone

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Speaker 1: was like yeah so so. Turing is perhaps most famous

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Speaker 1: in pop culture for proposing the idea of the Turing test.

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Speaker 2: It's oh for is that for seeing if something is

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Speaker 2: a robot or android?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, criteria for determining whether like a quote unquote artificial

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Speaker 1: intelligence is actually thinking.

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Speaker 2: I think probably correct me if I'm wrong. The stuff

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Speaker 2: in Blade Runner where they're kind of asking questions to

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Speaker 2: see if someone's a replicant or not. Its back right,

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Speaker 2: they're not helping it. It's sort of based around this

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Speaker 2: kind of test, right.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely inspired by that. Philip K. Dick was not

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Speaker 1: working in vacuum. And you know, recently when large language models,

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Speaker 1: most famously chapped GPT, came out into the into the world,

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Speaker 1: people started talking again. There was a renaissance and in

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Speaker 1: the discourse about whether or not the Turing tests have

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Speaker 1: been met.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And he would have been amazing on Twitter right.

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Speaker 2: Now probably so the hot takes would be a flowing

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Speaker 2: the hot takes would be a floid.

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Speaker 1: I could I can you imagine what other weird metaphors

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Speaker 1: and philosophical stuff he would have had to say in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Three, Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, No, this guy was definitely

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Speaker 2: a coiner, you know, yeah, in terms of like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean he created whole concepts that he was you know,

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Speaker 2: it was like he didn't. It was one of those things,

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Speaker 2: much like often happens in science fiction where somebody has

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Speaker 2: the forethought, foresight, and the intelligence. The intellects sort of

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Speaker 2: literally see the future even though no such technology exists

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Speaker 2: yet they're describing a thing that then ultimately, over time,

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Speaker 2: all of the pieces come together. That's what Touring did.

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Speaker 1: I think that's an apt comparison, man, and I love

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Speaker 1: how you set up that. Look, this is not about

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Speaker 1: this episode is not just inventors. We like, it's inventors

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Speaker 1: who are persecuted. And you said, hey, there might be

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Speaker 1: a darker side to this thing. In March of nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty two, Alan Turing is convicted of a crime called

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Speaker 1: gross indecency that is a euphemism for homosexuality, which was

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Speaker 1: an egregious crime in the country at that time. And

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Speaker 1: his sentence is beyond cruel and unusual. He was sentenced

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Speaker 1: to a full year of hormone therapy. God, and that

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Speaker 1: is a euphemism.

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Speaker 2: That's worse than pray the gaoa. That's so like barbaric,

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Speaker 2: you know. So when you say when you say it's

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Speaker 2: a euphemism, what for like being the bottomized or something.

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Speaker 1: Kind of yeahical castration talking exactly, no way. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: just shot him up with synthetic estrogen injections. And eventually

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Speaker 1: these will make you impotent. While also, of course I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine wreaking havoc on your body. In other ways,

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Speaker 1: why do.

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Speaker 2: They hate him so much? He'd done so much for

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Speaker 2: the country. Why would they seek him out? Because a

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Speaker 2: lot of times what we see in these cases of

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Speaker 2: persecution is that that someone speaking truth to power, or

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Speaker 2: they're saying something that's politically divisive, and then they're targeted

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Speaker 2: because they're they're they're they want to shut them down

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Speaker 2: because they're dangerous. That doesn't quite seem like what's happening here.

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Speaker 2: He had nothing but bona fides, and you know, like

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Speaker 2: he's basically a war hero. Why why are they doing

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Speaker 2: this to the Yeah, I guess because they're homophobic.

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Speaker 1: And also I think I think a lot of accusations

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Speaker 1: are confessions, So you know, just like.

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Speaker 2: How accuse the other of that which you yourself are guilty? Right?

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Speaker 1: Like, look at how many and I'll say it not

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Speaker 1: to get too political, but look at how many right,

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Speaker 1: very far right politicians across the world make, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: make these statements, these barnstorming speeches about you know, family

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Speaker 1: values and things like that. And later it turns out

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Speaker 1: that they were grooming.

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Speaker 2: Or or closeted or closetive day.

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Speaker 1: Is that the guy Jerry Folwell Junior, Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: one of many.

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Speaker 2: One of many, Lindsey Graham. I mean it's it's not confirmed.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's it's pretty much is confirmed. The guy

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Speaker 2: is a regular visitor of male sex workers.

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Speaker 1: Old ladybug.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they call him something like that. It wasn't quite that.

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Speaker 2: They call oh yeah yeah, lady like Lady Godiva. It's

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Speaker 2: like something like that, some kind of weird code name.

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Speaker 2: Lady g I think is maybe okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so Turing is persecuted again, not for his

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Speaker 1: world changing work, but because they have decided his very

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Speaker 1: identity is a crime. And so there's another kick in

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Speaker 1: the pants here. Now he's got a criminal record, so

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Speaker 1: he can never work for the British government's code breaking center,

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Speaker 1: which is crazy because he's literally the best guy for

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Speaker 1: the job, like throughout the world, he's the number one

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Speaker 1: guy for the job, and the government refuses because they're

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Speaker 1: saying tuts.

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Speaker 2: Why would they This seems like they're shooting themselves in

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Speaker 2: the foot. You know. It's like making hackers take drug tests,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, which they've done away with

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Speaker 2: in terms of the CIA and like the ability to

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Speaker 2: hire stuff because they realized this is this is stupid

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Speaker 2: where we're like literally narrowing the pool of capable individuals

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Speaker 2: who can do this work for us. But you're right

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Speaker 2: at this point that hate trumps all else. Yeah, because

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Speaker 2: if anyone was going to get a pass, it's this

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Speaker 2: guy again, war hero.

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Speaker 1: Very much so, and so he has a He has

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Speaker 1: a very abbreviated career after this. He returns to Manchester.

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Speaker 2: Old is he around this time?

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Speaker 1: So he's like forty jeez, that's all. It's like forty

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Speaker 1: forty one, maybe just about to term forty one.

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Speaker 2: And amazing how much he accomplished already though about that

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Speaker 2: by this point you know, absolutely yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So here we are in the early nineteen fifties. He

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Speaker 1: has been working on what we would now call artific life.

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Speaker 1: He publishes a paper called the Chemical Basis of Morphogenesis,

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Speaker 1: and it's looking at form and pattern in nature and

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Speaker 1: living organisms. And then he starts working on more stuff

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Speaker 1: that's like at the edge of what we would call

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Speaker 1: biotech for his time, comparing the natural world to created mechanisms.

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Speaker 2: Such a versatile mind, this guy he used Manchester's Ferranti

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Speaker 2: Mark one computer to create very as elaborate as the

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Speaker 2: technology of the time would allow models of these hypotheses

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Speaker 2: that he had about chemical mechanisms for the generation of

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Speaker 2: anatomical structure in animals and plants. But this is when

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Speaker 2: the story takes a really really, really really sad turn,

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Speaker 2: because he is just a year later, in nineteen fifty four,

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Speaker 2: found dead in his bed from a parent cyanid poisoning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is.

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Speaker 2: Ruled a suicide, but seems sketched to me.

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Speaker 1: Dude, there was no motive established in the investigation, because

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Speaker 1: at least they had an investigation into the death. Right Now,

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Speaker 1: A lot of historians will tell you that his demise

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Speaker 1: should be attributed to the hormone treatment he received at

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Speaker 1: the at the hands of the British government after he's

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Speaker 1: found guilty basically being a gay man, And well, I

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Speaker 1: guess they shouldn't say most historians his historians will often

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Speaker 1: say this, But if you look at the timeline he

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Speaker 1: survived that year of hormone doses, he died more than

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Speaker 1: a year after that dose sentence had ended, and he

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Speaker 1: had the thing where a lot of you see this

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Speaker 1: unfortunately often if people commit suicide, he had where people

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Speaker 1: might not believe it, and one of his friends said,

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Speaker 1: you know, he seemed fine, he had an amused fortitude

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Speaker 1: to go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Peter at Hilton is how is his friend who

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Speaker 2: described his attitude about the treatment like that? And he has,

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Speaker 2: you know, in many ways become a sad sort of

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Speaker 2: case study on this kind of persecution around whether gender

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Speaker 2: identity or sexuality or whatever it might be. He really

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Speaker 2: is sort of like a lesson learned, I guess, or

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Speaker 2: a case to point too of how what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: We're so mystified by this, Like how would they how

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Speaker 2: could they shoot themselves in the foot like that? Like

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Speaker 2: this guy who obviously literally turned the war in favor

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Speaker 2: of his country, how could they just throw him out

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Speaker 2: like a piece of garbage like that? And it doesn't

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Speaker 2: make any sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's also you know, there's some kind of

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Speaker 1: torn about because the story of his persecution and the

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Speaker 1: prosecution against him for being gay, it grew over time,

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Speaker 1: and by the early twenty first century or so, it

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Speaker 1: was something everybody knew about and everybody admitted it was

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Speaker 1: super messed up. In two thousand and nine, the Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister at the time, Gordon Brown spoke up officially on

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Speaker 1: behalf of the British government publicly apologized for the utterly

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Speaker 1: unfair treatment of Turin and then.

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Speaker 2: Better late than never, I guess, yeah, get this, this

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Speaker 2: is so weird.

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Speaker 1: Four years after that, Queen Elizabeth gave him a posthumous

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Speaker 1: royal part.

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Speaker 2: In symbolic I suppose.

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Speaker 1: I guess, But I mean, does that help.

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Speaker 2: No, But what maybe does help is that for a

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Speaker 2: long time his legacy was sort of buried.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it was until the nineties because of

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Speaker 2: classified type stuff, that it was even understood to what

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Speaker 2: degree he was responsible for turning that tide of war,

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Speaker 2: you know, in favor of the Allies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I kind of want to jump in here

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Speaker 3: just to kind of point out Queen Elizabeth was the

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Speaker 3: queen when this all happened.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna ask if I thought that was probably

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Speaker 2: the case. I wanted to check because I'm like, this

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Speaker 2: has people now I was thinking the same thing, and

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Speaker 2: so maybe that is a little bit again symbolic. It's

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Speaker 2: sort of like her apologizing as well. But that's just

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Speaker 2: sort of what's the word, too little, too late, way

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Speaker 2: too little way too late. Yeah, but again, his legacy

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Speaker 2: is now really established, you know, and when in the nineties,

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Speaker 2: you know, when it was made clear how important he

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Speaker 2: was in that effort, and now he's a legend, you know,

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Speaker 2: which I guess is something. You know, legacy is important.

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Speaker 2: I guess. I don't know that he would have cared.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't seem like that.

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Speaker 1: I don't think you would have cared. I genuinely don't

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Speaker 1: think you would have cared. But that because that's like

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Speaker 1: his areas a doer man, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: Like that's he doesn't I don't think he was focused

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Speaker 1: on legacy.

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Speaker 2: Don't know he did. He have kids to speak of

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Speaker 2: or family? Think so? Now I didn't think so. And

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Speaker 2: if you want to read more about the sort of

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Speaker 2: updated legacy that we're talking about here, there is a

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Speaker 2: really good article in The New York Times by Alan

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Speaker 2: Cowell called Overlooked No More. Alan Turning condemned codebreaker and

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Speaker 2: computer visionary. Highly recommend that And this is what he

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Speaker 2: had to say, kind of summing up everything we've been

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Speaker 2: talking about to this day. Turning is recognized in his

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Speaker 2: own country and among a broad society of scientists as

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Speaker 2: a pillar of achievement, who had fused brilliance and eccentricity,

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Speaker 2: moved comfortably in the abstruse realms of mathematics and cryptography,

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Speaker 2: but awkwardly in social settings, and had been brought low

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Speaker 2: by the hostile society into which he was born. And

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Speaker 2: there's a quote here from John Graham Cumming, who's a

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Speaker 2: computer scientist who campaigned for Touring to be part of this.

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Speaker 2: Didn't have been on a vacuum either, this whole pardoning thing.

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Speaker 2: He was a national treasurer and we hounded him to

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Speaker 2: his death.

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Speaker 1: And it's true, you know, and we're gonna, you know, work,

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Speaker 1: going to keep this when a little bit shorter. There

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Speaker 1: are so many scientists that we weren't able to get to.

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Speaker 1: We do hope history remembers them. Shout out to people

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Speaker 1: like Henry Oldenberg. This is a real story. He founded

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Speaker 1: the Royal Society in London and he wanted to publish

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Speaker 1: a lot of scientific papers, so he had to write

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Speaker 1: to all these people living across Europe. He had a

438
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: lot of correspondents, and he wrote and received so many

439
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: letters that the government decided he was a spy, and

440
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: they arrested him and locked him in the Tower of

441
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: London because of his pin Pllory. Oh wow.

442
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

443
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 3: I also did a little restream of the guy and

444
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: he was kind of footing the bill for all that too.

445
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 3: To make it even worse, his dudes footing the bill

446
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 3: to start basically the first medical publication, and the English

447
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 3: government is like spy.

448
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like, hey, nobody really likes mailing things or something.

449
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: They thought they got him. But you know, with this,

450
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: I think what we have to remember is a lot

451
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: of times society can be its own enemy, you know

452
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: what I mean.

453
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying.

454
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 3: All this.

455
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 2: The way they persecuted the during it could have potentially

456
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: robbed them of his genius. You know, the fact that

457
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 2: this criminal record made it where he could no longer

458
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: work for the government, which is who he did the

459
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 2: most benefit towards society, right.

460
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: Which almost sounds conspiratorial. It does, like they I keep

461
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: going back to, it's literally the one guy who's best

462
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: for the job in the world and someone in the

463
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: boundary government. Yeah, like finds a reason. And I want

464
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: to shout out a really cool graphic novel series that

465
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: I've been enjoying I hope picks back up, called Uber

466
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: and Alan Turing is a character in this graphic novel series.

467
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to ruin it, but I've got I

468
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: got a copy if you want to snag it. It's

469
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: you know how it is when you really like music,

470
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: you really like a story book, and you just you

471
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: want your friends to see it or hear it or experience. Absolutely, yeah,

472
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: definitely I'm going through that and hopefully hopefully we can

473
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: inspire something similar in you ridiculous historians. Not every scientist

474
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: is persecuted, hopefully, And although scientists often work in realms

475
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: that we candidly don't understand, the work they do is

476
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: important and it matters to everyone.

477
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:28,479
Speaker 2: Magnets, Am I right?

478
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: So again, no I'm letting no, no, no no. I

479
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: said it last time, and poor Alex and Max have

480
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: had to listen to that too often. But yeah, yeah,

481
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: the the Juggalos of their time.

482
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: Indeed, I think this is a good one. I think honestly, Turing, uh,

483
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,239
Speaker 2: he just deserved his due. I barely wanted to make

484
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 2: this a listical episode, and I think this is a

485
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 2: topic that we can just continue to come back to,

486
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: sort of an ongoing series.

487
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, because unfortunately history is rife and riddled with scientists

488
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: who have been persecuted. We can't wait to hear thoughts, folks.

489
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: We are going to be returning soon with all sorts

490
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: of strange and ridiculous stories, not all of which will

491
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: be down as we promise.

492
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 2: And you know, in the new year we might get

493
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 2: the keys to our social media back for the show.

494
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: It's been an ongoing struggle and impossible dream. I would

495
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 2: hope so, but in the meantime we haven't said this

496
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 2: in a while. You can reach out to us as

497
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: individuals if you wish. I am pretty exclusively on Instagram

498
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: at how Now, Noel Brown? How about you bet? Where

499
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: can the fine folks find you?

500
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: In a stunning burst of creativity and modesty, I am

501
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: on Instagram as at Ben Bowling. You got led, You

502
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: got it.

503
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: We were the first to market.

504
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: Sorry other Bends. The Covenant is broken. It's doggy dog now,

505
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: no kidding. As Noel said, you can find us on

506
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: individually on Instagram. We love hanging out, We love hearing

507
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: from listeners. You are the most important part of the

508
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: show and thank you so much for sharing your time

509
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: with us today. Max. What if people want to find.

510
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 3: You, bro? Yeah, if they want to find me, send

511
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 3: Ben a message on Twitter and he can text it

512
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 3: to me.

513
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: And notice I didn't tell people my Twitter at bmbule

514
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: ANDHSW what's Twitter?

515
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: It's this.

516
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: It was this really cool thing back in the day

517
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: we happened to. Oh story for another time. Fair enough,

518
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: but thank you for the beautiful set up, mister Brown.

519
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: Also, if you want to be nice to us, maybe

520
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: mentioned it in the previous episode, you can go on

521
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: to iTunes and or Apple podcasts and leave us a

522
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 2: nice review. We might start doing a thing where we

523
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: like read some of they're funny, make them funny.

524
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: We'll get through them when no pun's left behind. Okay, great,

525
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: So thank you in advance for that. Thank you to

526
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: our returning guest Alex Circa, who has been hanging out

527
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: with us in the past few weeks.

528
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: At Alex, I find me of the joke, Alex Circa,

529
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: what like circa nineteen ninety four that's our cutoff.

530
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's when. Yeah, that's the mid nineties is when

531
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: we decided we decided things were modern times. We might

532
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: have to adjust that up a decade as this.

533
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: Oh god, yeah, we've been May you live in interesting times?

534
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: You said the wise man to the idiot. Definitely haven't

535
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 2: heard that one before. Oh yeah, okay, now you're being psychastic.

536
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: We're on a roll.

537
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: So Alex has been hanging out a few weeks here

538
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: with us and and has been graciously sitting through all

539
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: kinds of beeps, all kinds of all kinds of hiccups

540
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: and so on, and probably hearing Max curse like a sailor.

541
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: Guy's got a foul mouth on it.

542
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: He's invented dirty work. He really isn't in some of

543
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: them already impressive. I hear him, and I'm like, that

544
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: was Max.

545
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 2: All Right, Well, I guess we'll see you next time, folks.

546
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio

547
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows