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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a bombshell book. What happened

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Speaker 1: to Ellen? The bride to be stabbed twenty times, including

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Speaker 1: in the back of the head, to the back of

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Speaker 1: the neck, to the back a horrible gash on the

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Speaker 1: back of her head? How could that be ruled suicide?

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Speaker 1: And why we want justice for Ellen. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Thanks you hear now it's on the floor foot, she responding,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I can't I can't see anything. She didn't.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing broken, she believed Ellie, which she may have

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Speaker 2: slipt his blood on the on the table, her feature

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Speaker 2: of a little purple.

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Speaker 1: Regardless of what you may hear on that nine one

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Speaker 1: one call, there is no way that this young bride

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Speaker 1: to be a first grade teacher slipped and fell on

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Speaker 1: a ninth twenty times. That did not happen, And according

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Speaker 1: to many, many sleuths and many full on experts, including

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Speaker 1: death investigators, medical examiners, lawyers, investigators, she did not commit suicide.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely impossible. Let's learn what we can from the original

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Speaker 1: nine to one.

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Speaker 2: One calls on the floor with blood everywhere addressed, but

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Speaker 2: please help Oh no, well, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I can tell you, so you have to calm yourself

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Speaker 3: down in order to get you somehow.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking

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Speaker 2: at her right now. I can't see anything shooting, there's

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Speaker 2: nothing broken.

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Speaker 4: She blea Ellie, you don't know where she's bleeding from.

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Speaker 2: I think her head everywhere, everywhere.

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Speaker 4: She might have fallen, you know what happened.

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Speaker 2: She may have slipped his blood on the on the table,

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Speaker 2: her pets of a little purple.

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Speaker 1: Okay, hold on for.

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Speaker 2: On the phone.

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Speaker 1: Can't see anything straight out to Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,

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Speaker 1: Jackson State University, death investigator with over one thousand death

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Speaker 1: scenes to his credit, author of Blood Beneath My Feet

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Speaker 1: on Amazon and star of hitting new series Body Bags

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Speaker 1: with Joseph Scott Morgan. Okay, number one, can we just

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Speaker 1: put this out there. Ellen did not slip and fall

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Speaker 1: and get stabbed twenty times? Can we agree on that

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Speaker 1: right up front? There's no slip and fall in this scenario.

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Speaker 1: But what I want to ask you about, I can't

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Speaker 1: see anything that was stated. Wasn't there? What a five

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Speaker 1: inch nine sticking out of her chest? Still.

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Speaker 5: Yes, Yeah, the one pictured right here that you see,

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Speaker 5: Nancy was still in place or as we say in

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Speaker 5: pathology inside you, which, of course, when Ellen's remains were

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Speaker 5: removed from the scene, the knife was left in place

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Speaker 5: so that they could observe it. He obviously, according to him,

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Speaker 5: couldn't see it. But it's very glaring. It's even glaring

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Speaker 5: in scene photos as well. Nancy.

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Speaker 1: When I say five inch, I mean five inch handle

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Speaker 1: in five inch blade. Would you agree with that, Jose Scott.

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Speaker 5: Oh, yeah, absolutely too.

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Speaker 1: Tom Brennan joining me, consultant for Ellen Greenberg's family, who

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Speaker 1: has been on the case from the very beginning today

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Speaker 1: out the definitive book, What Happened to Ellen? An American

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Speaker 1: miscarriage of justice? Tom Brennan, Isn't that correct? Isn't the

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Speaker 1: knife that was sticking out off her chest still embedded

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Speaker 1: in Ellen's chest as she sat upright on the kitchen

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Speaker 1: floor against the cabinets. Five inch blade, five inch handle?

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Speaker 1: Is that correct, Tom?

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Speaker 6: Yes, it is, Yes, it is. I I have a

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Speaker 6: knife that is identical to the knife that was found on.

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Speaker 1: Island, and what was happening in her life is just

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Speaker 1: so poignant. I'm going to get back into the details

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Speaker 1: of the forensics in this case, which I believe, contrary

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Speaker 1: to online critics, the forensics prove to me that this

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Speaker 1: is not a suicide. I can't say it enough. What

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Speaker 1: a miscarriage of justice. This is her parents, Sandy and Josh,

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Speaker 1: whom I consider to be friends at this point, have

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Speaker 1: spent the last fourteen years plus their life savings. They

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Speaker 1: just sold their home to prove their daughter did not

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Speaker 1: commit suicide. But forensics a side which I'm going to

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Speaker 1: go right back into. Let me go to Sandy Greenberg.

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Speaker 1: This is Ellen's mother. Sandy, thank you for being with

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Speaker 1: us on this very important day in our lives. Were

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Speaker 1: the book that we have worked so hard on to

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Speaker 1: force the district attorney to investigate this case as they

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Speaker 1: should have at the time she was murdered. Could you

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Speaker 1: explain to everyone why this was such a critical time

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Speaker 1: in Ellen's life, A happy time, a wonderful time that

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Speaker 1: in my mind precludes any possibility of suicide. What was

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Speaker 1: happening in her life there was so joyous.

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Speaker 3: We had just sent out to save the date cards

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Speaker 3: for the wedding. Everything was in place in terms of

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Speaker 3: deposits for the location, the music, the venue, hotels. So

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Speaker 3: it seemed to me, like, you know, everything was organized,

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Speaker 3: and she loved her job as a teacher, but she

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Speaker 3: seemed to feel she was overwhelmed at times. And I

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Speaker 3: couldn't understand how you could be overwhelmed from first graders,

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Speaker 3: but that's what she expressed.

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Speaker 1: Well, another issue, Sandy. You know, Sandy, I've never asked you,

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Speaker 1: after all this time, what were the details of the wedding.

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Speaker 1: Where was the wedding to be held? What venue? What music?

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Speaker 1: I can't believe I've never asked you that question.

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Speaker 3: It was going to be at the Hershey Hotel, which

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Speaker 3: is a lovely setting. It and located not too far

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Speaker 3: from where we were living in Pennsylvania, and we picked

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Speaker 3: out beautiful flowers. We were splitting the band with Sam's

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Speaker 3: parents because they really really liked this band, and we figured, okay,

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Speaker 3: we had a wonderful wedding planner as part of the

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Speaker 3: hotel who we became friends with because she was just

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Speaker 3: so talented and capable, and we had gotten her a

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Speaker 3: dress that was all taken care of.

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Speaker 1: The dress, Sandy, the dress is beautiful. You missed. The

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Speaker 1: best part of the dress was the path of it.

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Speaker 1: It had a big, beautiful rose material in the back.

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Speaker 1: It was stunning. But thank you. I love the dress

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Speaker 1: too and I'm grateful. Did you guys find the dress?

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Speaker 3: Sandy in Suburban Square in Philadelphia, Priscilla something a bridal.

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Speaker 1: Shock beautiful and you know to Karen Stark joining me,

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Speaker 1: renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant. You can

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Speaker 1: find her at Karenstark dot com, Karen wi as Karen.

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Speaker 1: With that backdrop she had, was just sending out the

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Speaker 1: save of the dates. She was very clear to everyone

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Speaker 1: that she loved the fiance, Sam Goldberg, that he was

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Speaker 1: mister Wright. They had dated a good chunk of time.

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Speaker 1: That backdrop, to me, makes it an even more stark event.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you and I have lived through a lot

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Speaker 1: of murders. I've prosecuted a lot of murders. You've helped

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Speaker 1: me analyze a lot of murders, but very rarely with

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Speaker 1: such a joyous, seemingly joyous backdrop as this, which makes

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Speaker 1: the dichotomy in my mind even more In.

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Speaker 7: A lot of ways, Nancy, this is so inconsistent with

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Speaker 7: what you would actually think of in terms of suicide,

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Speaker 7: because you would have signs that somebody was actually having

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Speaker 7: suicidal ideations. That wasn't happening with Ellen at all.

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Speaker 1: And you just.

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Speaker 7: Heard her mother, her mother who lost her one and

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Speaker 7: only child, talk about the fact that she was not

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Speaker 7: stressed except for things from her classroom, which really working

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Speaker 7: with first graders, I can understand.

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Speaker 1: But she didn't talk you know about Karen. Hold on

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Speaker 1: right there. Hold on just a second, Karen, because I

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Speaker 1: wanted to analyze something you heard Sandy, and Ellen's friends

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Speaker 1: have told us this as well. You know, let me

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Speaker 1: go to my co author Benet Nauer, who researched exhaustively,

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Speaker 1: tracked down witnesses, friends from way back when, all the

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Speaker 1: way going back to grammar school. We traveled to scenes,

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Speaker 1: we spoke to experts, We tracked down so much information

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Speaker 1: to prove Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide. Benay, an

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Speaker 1: hour co author, What happened to Ellen? An American miscarriage

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Speaker 1: of justice? Benay, there was something else going on. And

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Speaker 1: you heard Sandy correctly allude to it that her daughter

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Speaker 1: Ellen had always been and you went all the way

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Speaker 1: back to middle school and elementary school. Friends had always

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Speaker 1: been so happy, go lucky, care free, was how many

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Speaker 1: of her friends described her. She did great in school.

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Speaker 1: She went on to get a graduate degree and landed

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Speaker 1: at this fantastic first grade class and an elementary school

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Speaker 1: and loved it. But suddenly she became anxious, anxious. Just before,

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Speaker 1: just before she was found dead, she asked her parents

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Speaker 1: could she move back home and quit her job? And

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Speaker 1: I never understood, bene if she was that worried about

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Speaker 1: the first graders that she had always loved. She didn't

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Speaker 1: want to leave, she adored them. Why not just quit

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Speaker 1: the job and stay in the apartment she shared with

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Speaker 1: her fiance. Instead she wanted to move out and that

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Speaker 1: I don't know what her concern was. But isn't it true, Beney,

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Speaker 1: that her mom and dad said, listen, you're anxious, go

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Speaker 1: see a therapist. And she saw a therapist, and the

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Speaker 1: therapist said, without question, this is anxiety. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people have anxiety. She is absolutely not suicidal. Didn't that happen?

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Speaker 1: Ben an hour?

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Speaker 4: That absolutely happened a couple of things. It was clear,

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Speaker 4: according to her psychiatrist, that there was no suicide suicidal ideation.

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Speaker 4: But it is also true that Ellen was going through

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Speaker 4: a lot of stress and anxiety and did want to

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Speaker 4: get seemingly out of the home that she shared with

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Speaker 4: her fiance. She not only asked her parents if she

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Speaker 4: could go home, and they encouraged her to just finish.

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Speaker 8: The school year.

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Speaker 4: She also asked her cousin Debbie about living in her house.

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Speaker 4: She wanted to get away, it seemed absolutely, but she did.

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Speaker 4: She did tell her friends when they asked why she

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Speaker 4: seemed so stressed out, that there was stress about school.

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Speaker 4: It didn't seem to add up. But on the day

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Speaker 4: that she died, in her very last moments, likely she

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Speaker 4: spent her time calling her students' parents to make sure

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Speaker 4: the students had gotten home.

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Speaker 1: Because there was a Nor'easter.

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Speaker 4: It was a blizzard, and she wanted to make sure

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Speaker 4: that they were safe and they had all arrived home.

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Speaker 4: She seemed to have loved her job and those children,

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Speaker 4: and so lots of things don't add up here, but

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Speaker 4: she did absolutely entertain the notion of leaving her home.

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Speaker 1: So Tom Brennan, while police did not contact those people

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Speaker 1: that last spoke to Ellen before she was found dead

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Speaker 1: by her fiance, you.

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Speaker 6: Did, yeh.

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Speaker 1: Did the parents tell you what was her frame of mind?

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Speaker 6: Yes, they said she was fine, that she called them

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Speaker 6: an expressed concern over the kids, that in fact, she

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Speaker 6: wanted the parents to know that they were going to

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Speaker 6: have an early dismissal and that they should be there

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Speaker 6: to pick up their children.

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Speaker 1: So she was fine, And this is within two hours

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Speaker 1: before she's found dead.

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Speaker 6: Yes, how I learned about that was there was considerable

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Speaker 6: discussion regarding all these calls made from Ellen's phone, okay

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Speaker 6: and using a specific code, and they were What was

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Speaker 6: being said about it was she was going out of

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Speaker 6: her mind calling all these numbers. Well, no one ever

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Speaker 6: contacted any of those numbers. I did, and they were

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Speaker 6: all parents of the children in Ellen's class. And the

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Speaker 6: reason why she was making those calls was to contact

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Speaker 6: the parents and let them know they were going to

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Speaker 6: have an early dismissal, that they should be there to

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Speaker 6: pick up their children.

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Speaker 1: So even in the minutes the hour before she's found dead,

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Speaker 1: she's perfectly fine on the phone and she's contacting the

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Speaker 1: parents of her first graders. Is that correct, Tom.

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Speaker 6: Brennan, Yes it is, Yes it is.

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Speaker 9: Ellen Greenberg is the first grade teacher in Philadelphia. At

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Speaker 9: twenty seven years old, She and longtime boyfriend Sam Goldberg

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Speaker 9: have justin out out Save the Day cards for their

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Speaker 9: upcoming wedding. A blizzard is bearing down on Philadelphia and

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Speaker 9: school has dismissed everyone early, and on her way home,

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Speaker 9: Ellen stops to fill up her gas tank. Once she's

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Speaker 9: home with her fiance Sam Goldberg, leaves around four forty

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Speaker 9: five pm to work out in the apartment complex Jim.

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Speaker 9: When Sam arrives back less than an hour later, the

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Speaker 9: door is locked from the inside.

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Speaker 2: Oh good, Oh my god. Everywhere everywhere.

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Speaker 4: Found pack out.

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Speaker 2: Of her heart.

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Speaker 1: Today, the definitive book on the murder of Ellen Greenberg

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Speaker 1: is released. What Happened to Ellen? All proceeds going to

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Speaker 1: the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. There is

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Speaker 1: no pecuniary or money interest in writing this book. This

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Speaker 1: book is intended to force the local district attorney to

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Speaker 1: investigate this case after a long and painful saga her

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Speaker 1: parents have endured. What was so shocking to me is

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Speaker 1: that when Ellen's body was first taken to the medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: Guy DeAndrea joining me, who was a prosecutor in the

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Speaker 1: DA's office, who combed through Ellen's file and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is not a suicide alert. Nobody did anything. Nobody,

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true? Guy DeAndrea that. When Ellen's body was

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Speaker 1: taken to the medical examiner, doctor Marlon Osborne stated ruled

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Speaker 1: it was a homicide. Then, obviously with twenty wounds to

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Speaker 1: your back, the back of your head, the back of

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Speaker 1: your neck, even slicing the dura dua, the protective sheath

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Speaker 1: around one's spine sliced, yet she continued to stab herself

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Speaker 1: twenty stab wounds. It's unheard of for a suicide, that said,

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Speaker 1: isn't it true? After doctor Osborne rule this a homicide,

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Speaker 1: he had a closed door meeting with representatives from the PHILLYPD,

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Speaker 1: from the District Attorney's office, and within the medical Examiner's office,

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Speaker 1: and when that door was open, he went, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a suicide. It's taken this long to get that

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Speaker 1: ruling reversed under threat of lawsuit. Finally, Osborne is now saying,

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Speaker 1: this is definitely not a suicide. What happened in that

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Speaker 1: closed door meeting? Why did the assistant district attorney get

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Speaker 1: immunity in this case? No one will come forward and

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Speaker 1: tell the truth.

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Speaker 10: That's right. No one will say what happened in that meeting?

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Speaker 10: What I understood, whether it's true or not. The explanation

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Speaker 10: given to me by the medical examiner's office is that

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Speaker 10: the police convinced the medical Examiner's office that the door

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Speaker 10: was dead bolted shut and that no one could have entered,

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Speaker 10: which we now know, of course, Nancy, is not true.

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Speaker 1: The online haters are at it again. But really, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: you've gone over this exhaustively, and you know, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to let in a moment, Guy DeAndre and Beney now

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Speaker 1: are and John Lucy chime in on this. But when

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Speaker 1: his feet were held to the fire, when Sandy and

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Speaker 1: Josh Greenberg sued the medical examiners and the city at

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Speaker 1: the eleventh hour, just before the jury was to hear

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Speaker 1: the evidence and the emmy was going to have to

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Speaker 1: take the stand until what happened. He went, Oh, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I don't think it was suicide. This has

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Speaker 1: just happened. But yet we've had no movement from the

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Speaker 1: District Attorney's office. So now the online haters can chew

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Speaker 1: on that the original medical examiner is saying it was

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Speaker 1: not suicide. It's not just me screaming in the wilderness.

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Speaker 1: This is wrong. It's not just Sandy her mother screaming

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Speaker 1: in the wilderness. To whoever will Listen now, the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner who examined the body says it was not suicide

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Speaker 1: when he was forced to. And I want you to

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Speaker 1: explain to me in words we can understand, Joe Scott.

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Speaker 1: We're not all death investigators like you. Why we know

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Speaker 1: this is not a suicide. There is a killer walking

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Speaker 1: free that killed Ellen Greenberg. How do we know that,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott?

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Speaker 5: Because I still hold to this day that this it's

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Speaker 5: an empirical impossibility for someone to self inflict twenty stab ones,

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Speaker 5: some of which are rather rather deep, Nancy, and some

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Speaker 5: of them directed. Particularly you notice in this rendering the

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Speaker 5: back of the neck, you've got intrusion that runs adjacent

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Speaker 5: to the spinal cord. You've got one that goes into

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Speaker 5: what we refer to as a cranial vault, which means

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Speaker 5: the inside of the skull. You're talking about seahbellum at

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Speaker 5: that point in Tom. And then of course you've got

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Speaker 5: the final location in the chest where the knife is

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Speaker 5: buried into the chest very deeply. What always come back to,

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Speaker 5: Nancy is is the fact that every time, every time

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Speaker 5: you stab yourself or cut yourself, you're having pain centers fire.

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Speaker 5: And I've only had cases of self inflicted stab ones

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Speaker 5: over the course of my career that have involved people

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Speaker 5: that are in a I don't know how else to

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Speaker 5: put it, they're in psychological distress, almost like having a

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Speaker 5: psychotic event, and there's no indication. And relative to this,

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Speaker 5: the most troubling thing though Nancy, relative to Ellen's case,

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Speaker 5: for me, is not the stab wounds themselves. It's the

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Speaker 5: absence of attention that was paid to all of these

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Speaker 5: contusions that she It's now turned out that she has

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Speaker 5: all over her body, particularly particularly those that are located

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Speaker 5: on what is referred to as the anterior aspect of

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Speaker 5: the neck. Here in this position, along her neck, you've

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Speaker 5: got what would marry up in this position, almost like

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Speaker 5: a sea clamp. You can see if you look very closely,

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Speaker 5: you can see kind of this hemorrhagic formation. You know,

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Speaker 5: when he did this initial autopsy, Nancy, you know what

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Speaker 5: he said, the neck was unremarkable. Well, I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I wasn't there for it, but I can look at

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Speaker 5: that damn photograph and I can tell you it's remarkable

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Speaker 5: to me.

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Speaker 11: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Joe.

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, I want to follow up on exactly what

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Speaker 1: you're saying. I've spoken in depth, of course to Josh

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Speaker 1: and Sandy, her parents, and Josh Ellen's father has always

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Speaker 1: said that he believed that she was strangled as well,

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Speaker 1: not that the coeod cause of death was strangulation. It

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Speaker 1: was not. It was the stab wounds. But another doctor,

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Speaker 1: doctor Ross, consulted on this case and he found what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, and that is bruising to the strap muscles.

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Speaker 1: He found it. You see it. Take a look. These

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Speaker 1: bruce marks, which are very similar to finger marks, are unrelated.

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Speaker 1: That's important, unrelated to the stab wounds. Those bruise marks

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Speaker 1: to her neck and strap muscles around her neck are

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Speaker 1: text book, text book signs of strangulation. Now if I

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Speaker 1: can see it, mon here, yes please?

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Speaker 5: Yeah. So where you see that V formation which production

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Speaker 5: does a great job with these. Nancy, you take a

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Speaker 5: look at that image you mentioned how her cod is

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Speaker 5: not in asphixial related kind of death. I submit to

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Speaker 5: you that you can be choked and not killed, obviously,

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Speaker 5: but that position to me, based upon cases that I've

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Speaker 5: seen Tom and Tom again, that's a control position, so

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Speaker 5: that the hand, the hand of whoever perpetrated this was

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Speaker 5: holding her in place by her neck, particularly with these

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Speaker 5: injuries that you have on the front of her body,

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Speaker 5: the antier, and of course the ps of resistance is

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Speaker 5: where you have this knife that unfortunately is buried into

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Speaker 5: Ellen's chest. You know, how are you going to get

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Speaker 5: her to submit to that? And I think that one

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Speaker 5: of the ways you do that is controlling her by

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Speaker 5: her neck. I agree with Josh, and I agree with

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Speaker 5: this other doctor that it came up with this conclusion,

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Speaker 5: Doctor Ross.

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Speaker 1: You know, to Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mother, Sandy,

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Speaker 1: this is real. She could not physically have done this

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Speaker 1: to herself.

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Speaker 3: So remarkable reliving this every time, and it only emboldens

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Speaker 3: me more. She's my daughter, but she could be unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: your daughter, your sister, your aunt, your niece. And this

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Speaker 3: is so wrong on every level. How the Philadelphia establishment,

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Speaker 3: the Solicitor's office have revealed themselves.

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Speaker 12: Okay, okay, I'm gonna tell you what to do until

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Speaker 12: they get here. Okay, her chest sang, Okay, feel me

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Speaker 12: out by her side.

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Speaker 1: You can't freak out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm trying to. Her shirt won't come off as

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Speaker 2: a zipper. She stands herself where she fell.

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Speaker 1: Night.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, her night's sticking out what is sticking out herself?

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Speaker 4: I guess I don't know what she's telling it.

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Speaker 12: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, don't tuck it.

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Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel, and I want to

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Speaker 1: thank everyone for being with us tonight on this occasion,

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Speaker 1: the night of the release of What Happened to Ellen?

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Speaker 1: An American miscarriage of justice? Why is the book being written?

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Speaker 1: Why is the book on the stands now? Why is

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Speaker 1: the book on Amazon? Because we want this case investigated.

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Speaker 1: The original medical examiner, doctor Marlon Osborne, who wrongly rule

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Speaker 1: this a suicide after a closed door meeting with a

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Speaker 1: prosecutor that has now gotten immunity on the case. Members

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Speaker 1: from the police department who on the scene that night

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Speaker 1: said oh, yeah, looks like a suicide. Nothing's been stolen, conducted,

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Speaker 1: no tests whatsoever. He first ruled the case homicide, changed

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Speaker 1: it to suicide after the closed door meeting, has now

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Speaker 1: ruled it's not a suicide. Why is there no movement

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Speaker 1: on the case has become a political hot potato, even

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Speaker 1: roping in the governor of Pennsylvania, who was considered to

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Speaker 1: be the running mate on the Democratic presidential ticket for

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Speaker 1: vice president, who has roped him into this thing because

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Speaker 1: he has chosen to wash his hands of it and

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Speaker 1: look the other way. Well, that is not working for me, Shapiro.

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Speaker 1: You just heard the portion of the nine one one

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Speaker 1: call where the specter is raised for the first time

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Speaker 1: that Ellen stabbed herself or fell on a knife. Guy

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Speaker 1: DeAndrea in the District Attorney's office, who combed through the file,

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Speaker 1: waved a red flag. This is not a suicide. Why

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Speaker 1: wouldn't anyone listen to you, guy? Yeah, that's a great question, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I have pushed and pushed and pushed.

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Speaker 10: While I was there, and it was right up until

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Speaker 10: the time I was about to leave that they finally,

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Speaker 10: meaning the medical examiners, actually told me that they would

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Speaker 10: acquiesce and change the report as soon as the findings

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Speaker 10: from the independent medical examination that was done, which was

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Speaker 10: done and came back what we all knew, and so

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Speaker 10: I thought, back in twenty seventeen, Nancy, when this conversation happened,

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Speaker 10: that this medical examiner's findings would be changed. So it

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Speaker 10: baffles me to this day that despite them telling me

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Speaker 10: that they agreed that this was certainly not a suicide,

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Speaker 10: it was something else. Still nothing has been.

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Speaker 1: But did nothing. Nothing physically speaking, forensically speaking, Joscott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: I just want to clarify one thing. In addition to

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Speaker 1: all of the stab wounds, including ten to the back,

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Speaker 1: the back of the neck, the back of the head,

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Speaker 1: there's a gash on her head. Ellen was right handed.

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Speaker 1: How did she what was the direction of that gash?

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Speaker 1: Right to left, left to right? How did that work?

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Speaker 5: Well? The gash itself is generated by sharp force. This

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Speaker 5: is not like a blunt laceration. Okay, So it appears

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Speaker 5: to be that the knife itself sliced down through her scalp.

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Speaker 5: It appears to be that it is going from left

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Speaker 5: to right and probably from above to below. It's a

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Speaker 5: very deep gas. As a matter of fact, it goes

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Speaker 5: through what it's what we refer to as a full

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Speaker 5: thickness insized wound. So it goes down almost to the

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Speaker 5: level of the skull. And an odd a very odd

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Speaker 5: finding when compared to all of these other injuries that

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Speaker 5: she has over her body that were not slices or

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Speaker 5: insized wounds. They were stab wounds, which are completely different

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Speaker 5: but yet can be generated by the same weapon. In

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Speaker 5: my opinion, it's that knife that's in her chest potentially.

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Speaker 1: Tom Brennan joining me, who has helped Sandy and Josh

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Speaker 1: Greenberg from the get go private investigator and consultant. Tom,

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking through all of the wounds and how

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Speaker 1: impossible it would be. Statistically, when women commit suicide, they

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Speaker 1: don't stab themselves period but certainly not twenty times and

435
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: then keep on stabbing. But Tom, I'm curious. I find

436
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: possibly the single most important piece of evidence to disprove

437
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: the suicide theory is that not one, but two doctors

438
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: state that at least one, if not more wounds were

439
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: inflicted post mortem. In other words, they didn't bleed. Her

440
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: heart was no longer pumping blood. She could not have

441
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: inflicted those wounds. Tom Brennan, That's correct.

442
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 6: We had an analysis performed on each and every wound,

443
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 6: and that analysis came out saying that it was biomechanically

444
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 6: impossible for a human being to stab themselves in the

445
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 6: back of the neck with the force that was necessary

446
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 6: to cause the damage that was observed during autopsy.

447
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: Sandy Greenberg question, how do what is wrong with the

448
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: online haters? Why are they so intent on insisting that

449
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,479
Speaker 1: Ellen committed suicide? I mean, they have no knowledge of

450
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: the forensic findings. They never knew Ellen. They didn't speak

451
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: to her friends or to you. How do you control

452
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: yourself in the face of such adversaries.

453
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 3: I just look at the entire picture. I want Ellen's

454
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 3: name or Josh, and I would like Ellen's name clear cleared.

455
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 3: I don't the haters. You know, statistically, you know you

456
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 3: have to have.

457
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: Some of that.

458
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 10: But I.

459
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: Put it in a box and I put the lid on,

460
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 3: and I don't let it bother me at all. I

461
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: have a mission to accomplish. And Ellen's parents are going

462
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: to stick by her till the very end, and this

463
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 3: is going to get cleared.

464
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 11: Up crime stories with Nancy Grace.

465
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 13: The settlement has reached days after doctor Marlon Osborne, who

466
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 13: conducted the autopsy on Ellen Greenberg as the former assistant

467
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 13: medical examiner with the Emmy's Office, signed a sworn verification

468
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 13: statement in which he says he now believes Ellen's manner

469
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 13: of death should be designated as something other than suicide.

470
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 13: Doctor Osborne ruled Ellen Greenberg's death the homicide when she

471
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 13: was found dead in the kitchen of her apartment with

472
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 13: twenty stab wounds about her head, neck, and chest. Then,

473
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 13: for reasons known only to him at the time change

474
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 13: the ruling to suicide.

475
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: To John Lucy. Joining us are renowned journalist Live dot

476
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: Com and The Patriot News of Harrisburg, author of kill

477
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: the story, John, You've got Marlon Osborne, the medical examiner

478
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: at the time, state, this is not a suicide. We

479
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: know it's not an accident. We know it's not natural causes.

480
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: That leaves two choices undetermined and homicide basically homicide. So

481
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: what's the hold up? Why has it the District Attorney's

482
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: office begun the investigation?

483
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 8: Well, this case has been kicked all over the place

484
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 8: in terms of Jurisdictionally, it was originally the Philadelphia DA's office,

485
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 8: then it went to the Attorney General's office because the

486
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 8: incoming DA had a conflict of interest. That put it

487
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 8: in now Governor Shapiro's lap for about four years. And

488
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 8: now it is in another county's DA's office. And they

489
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 8: said they've looked into it and put in advanced the case.

490
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 8: But what would have been really interesting if the greed

491
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 8: He may.

492
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: Won't advance the case, right, But what.

493
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 8: Would really be interesting if this case would have gone

494
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 8: forward with Osborne flipping, if he could have been on

495
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 8: the stand. Then we know what happened in those secret

496
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 8: meetings with police and prosecutors. We know how much pressure

497
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 8: was being put on to change from homicide to suicide,

498
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 8: and we know a lot more about how this investigation

499
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 8: was bungled from the beginning when the police at the

500
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 8: scene didn't do any of that forensing testing, They didn't

501
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 8: hold the scene, they allowed it to be sanitized and

502
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 8: potential evidence lost for good exactly.

503
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: You mentioned that it had been sitting with Shapiro, who

504
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: has done nothing except cover for all of his cronies,

505
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: which means there has to be an independent investigation. And

506
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: I'm begging, begging the FEDS to police get involved in

507
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: this miscarriage of just speaking of Shapiro, who is that

508
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: close to the Oval office. Until Ellen Greenberg's name came up, Listen, he.

509
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 14: Transferred it to the Chester County District Attorney. If memory

510
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 14: serves me, they looked at it for a couple of

511
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 14: years and they found the same determination as well. It

512
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 14: has to have some evidence with it, not just someone

513
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 14: feeling different, but certainly if there's some evidence that this

514
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 14: medical examiner has uncovered, I'm not familiar with that. I'm

515
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 14: no longer the age. If they have new evidence, new information,

516
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 14: they should share that immediately.

517
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: There you here, Governor Shapiro just passing the ball again.

518
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: That's not his job. His job is to protect his constituents,

519
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: and that includes Josh and Sandy Greenberg. Now I want

520
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: you to hear William Trask, attorney.

521
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 14: Now, the City's agreed that the current medical examiner will

522
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 14: reopen Ellen's case and look at the evidence of her

523
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 14: manner of death and come to their own.

524
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: Conclusion from our friend's WPV. I so let me understand,

525
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: Tom Brennan, what are we waiting on?

526
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 6: It's okay, that's that decision came in February. It is

527
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 6: now the end of April. We still haven't heard a

528
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 6: thing from Philadelphia. Nothing. Why what's the.

529
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: Hold of I mean, Tom Brennan, can we get real?

530
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: Even if you did hear Philadelphia say okay, we're going

531
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: to look into it, do you trust them? I don't.

532
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: After all of it, we have to have an investigation.

533
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 6: I have no faith in the City of Philadelphia at all. Okay,

534
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 6: that's why when I began this investigation, I told Sandy

535
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 6: and Josh they are going to have to be extremely patient.

536
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what Tom Brennan before I try to

537
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: read Philadelphia or any other municipality of corruption. What I'd

538
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: like to do is to start with justice for Ellen.

539
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: If I could just get that underway, Guiding Andrea, what

540
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,479
Speaker 1: do we have to do to put a fire under

541
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: their tail?

542
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 10: Everything Nancy has been done so meticulously, from you to

543
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 10: the Greenberg's to everyone working so hard. I do not

544
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 10: understand to this day, what is taking so long? You

545
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 10: have Marlon Osborne agreeing that it is not a suicide,

546
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 10: which we all know because that originally he called it

547
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 10: a homicide. I don't know what else they could possibly

548
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 10: need to move this. What are they waiting for? I mean,

549
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 10: I know it's not a great answer.

550
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: The guy, we can't go to the governor. We can't

551
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: go to the age. He was connected to the governor,

552
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: So that takes me out of Pennsylvania. How do we

553
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: get the feds to investigate? That's the only recourse?

554
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 10: Guy, Yeah, The best way I think to get the

555
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 10: federal authorities involved is highlighting potential corruption, right because that's

556
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 10: what's going to give them the jurisdiction to come in

557
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 10: and evaluate this in terms of whether it's a cover off,

558
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 10: whether it's mistakes, whether it's corruption, that's what we need

559
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 10: them to focus on, because going all the way back

560
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 10: to twenty eleven, something went wrong many many, many many

561
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 10: ways along the way.

562
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: Sandy Greenberg, did you ever believe that it would come

563
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: to this, that this many years later, he would still

564
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 1: be fighting for justice for your daughter?

565
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 3: Ever in my wildest dreams did I think that there

566
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: would be any kind of corruption whatsoever. That's why we

567
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 3: have laws, and that's why we have law enforcement. I'd

568
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: like to follow rules, and I never was prepared.

569
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: I wasn't prepared, but I certainly.

570
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 3: Am now because I'm not giving Uppin's not giving up.

571
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 3: And the more people see what's going on, they have

572
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 3: to be concerned. It's tremendous public distrust right now.

573
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: Sandy Greener joining me, Sandy, what is your message tonight?

574
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: Do the right thing? I remember, Sandy, you told me

575
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: that you believed that the authorities, if I could call them,

576
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: that we're waiting for you to either run out of

577
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: money to fight this thing, or to just go away

578
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: and die, and then it would be over for them.

579
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 3: You told me that the truth will speak for itself,

580
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 3: and the truth always comes out.

581
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds what happened to Ellen. An

582
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: American Miscarriage of Justice, goes on the stands and on

583
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: Amazon today. Written with the help of my co author

584
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: Beney an Hour, We have left no stone unturned. All

585
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: proceeds to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

586
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 1: We are fighting in every way that we can for

587
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 1: justice for Ellen and tonight American heroes. There could be

588
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: no one more heroic than Josh and Sandy Greenberg, who

589
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: have fought now nearly fifteen years for justice in our

590
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: American justice system, and as of tonight, they have not

591
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: gotten it. We have daughters, sisters that we want to protect.

592
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: They could not protect Ellen from a killer, but they

593
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: can protect her now. Please help them. Nancy Gray signing off,

594
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,