1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: The Michael Arry Show. I was offered the opportunity to 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: interview a gentleman by the name of GiB Kerr, and 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: he's written a book called Uncanceled Robert E. Lee. You 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: have my attention, GiB Kerr. Welcome to the program, gibb. 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 2: Good boy, Michael. Yes, sir, thanks so much for having me. 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: Yes, sir. First of all, tell me why write this book? 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: What is your interest in this movement? 8 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: I wrote this book after Robert E. Lee was unfairly 9 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 2: canceled by the Woe Mom in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one. 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: You remember the statues coming down in Charlotteville and Richmond, 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 2: and you know, I think that it was this was 12 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: in response to cancel. Like we're talking about, they're trying 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 2: to erase history, to kind of take what I call 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 2: the serve pro approach to history, like nothing ever happened 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: before that with the radicals throughout history, the French Revolution, 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: they they did away with the calendar and started with 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 2: year zero. Is that nothing had ever happened before. We 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: saw it with the Chinese Cultural Revolution, and it really 19 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 2: started here in America. I trace it back really to 20 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 2: Obama when he said he wanted to fundamentally transform America. 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 2: We found out what that meant, you know, I meant 22 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 2: teaching our kids to to to be ashamed of their 23 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: past and to be ashamed of the founding fathers and 24 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: everything that made America great. And we've been through turmoil, 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: I mean, to the we went two years where people 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 2: were kneeling for the national anthem, and on and on 27 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: and on and but you know, like every radical movement 28 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: before it, the American Cultural Revolution, I think finally went 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: too far, and now it's flaming out and we're in 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: the middle of, thankfully, I think a great restoration of 31 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: American values and restoring Robert E. Lee, I think is 32 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: a poor a component of that. 33 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: Roberty Lee's contributions, service, sacrifice have not been forgotten to 34 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: history by neglect. They've been intentionally obscured and erased. Why 35 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: do you think that is? 36 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: That's a good question. You know, Lee was widely held 37 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: as a hero north and South up until you know, 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: recently as twenty or thirty years ago. But I think 39 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: it really I think he traced it back to modern academia. 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 2: You know, higher education has been completely taken over by 41 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 2: leftists and historians like Howard Zen you've probably heard of 42 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: Howard Zen, the Marxist historian who wrote the book People's 43 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: History of the United States. And Howard Zen said that 44 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: history is a weapon as a direct quote from him, 45 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 2: and that he saw history as a quiet revolution to 46 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: take over the institutions from within. And so now you 47 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 2: have historians that dominate universities, almost every PhD in America, 48 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: and history is a radical leftist these days. And so 49 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: that doesn't leave very many people to preserve the past 50 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 2: and to tell the story. So some of the greatest 51 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: uh history books right now are being written from outside 52 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 2: of academia. Unfortunately, that's where we are. 53 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: By by necessity, as it turns out. But you don't 54 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: have to tell you. I'm a Shelby Foot fan. I 55 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: love you know that style of this, These people that 56 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: just pour themselves into studying history and bringing history back 57 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: to life, and not just telling the history, but giving 58 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: you almost an experience as if as if you were 59 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: in it. And as a child, my oldest son's name 60 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: is Crockett, and I knew by third grade I wanted 61 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: to have a son one day whose name will be Crockett. 62 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: I was so enamored of the heroes of the Alamo 63 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: being a lifelong textan in and that has affected, you know, 64 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: many aspects of my life and who I want to 65 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: be and what values I consider to hold and the 66 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: idea of sacrifice because that was the ultimate. I think 67 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: it's interesting and you make the point that so much 68 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: of the best history is being written outside the university today. 69 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: I think that is a reflection both of the changing 70 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: of the guard, a changing of the mindset of faculty 71 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: and and their their political views, their their biases. But 72 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: I also think that is a reflection of outsiders recognizing 73 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: that this history has to be kept alive. It is 74 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: us like the Protect Philippe folks say, you know, you 75 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: don't own a protect filip You just you just hold 76 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: on to it and preserve it for the next generation. 77 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: I think there's probably that recognition, and I get the 78 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: sense that that is the reason for you to do this, 79 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: because we can't lose our history to history. 80 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 2: That's right, you know. I always say truth is a 81 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: stubborn thing and it cannot be erased. They've tried, But 82 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 2: now history is being written by attorneys, commercial real estate 83 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 2: guys like me, you know, uh, people from outside of 84 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: academia and uh. 85 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: Give hold on hold with me for just a moment. 86 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: The book is Uncanceled Robert E. Lee, an open letter 87 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:35,679 Speaker 1: to the Trustees of Washington and Lee University. I guess 88 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: it's not technically a book. I guess it's it's a 89 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: movement that has a manifesto as part of it. Let 90 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: me ask you. GiB Kerr is our guest. He's he's 91 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: written this. Have you had any you know, official, uh 92 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: communication with Washington and Lee? What has been their uh 93 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: their reactions? So far? 94 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 2: We've had communication through back channels, I would say, to 95 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 2: various members of the board of trustees, but the president 96 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: essentially won't talk to us. It's kind of hard to 97 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 2: make any progress when the other sideling engage with you. 98 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: So the man who was once the president of the university, 99 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: his successor won't speak to you about uncanceling. This great man, 100 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: And that's. 101 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: Interesting, that's right. Yeah. Lee's the one who saved the 102 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: school after the Civil War. He spent the last five 103 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 2: years of his life there. He's buried there on campus, 104 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 2: in the chapel that he built, and the university renamed 105 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: the chapel. It's no longer Lee Chapel. It's called University chapel, 106 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: and they took his portrait down, along with the portrait 107 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 2: of George Washington, and they built a wall in front 108 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 2: of the statue to block the view of Roberty Lee 109 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: from the chapel, So they essentially whitewashed it. And they 110 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 2: act as if they're ashamed of Lee or embarrassed by 111 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: any affiliation with him. And you know, my take is 112 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: that I've never felt the need to apologize, really, but 113 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: I do understand that the way that particularly younger generation 114 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: has been indoctrinated to demonize Confederates, and to not just Confederates, 115 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: but to really hate a lot of American heroes, I 116 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: understand that there's a real need to tell Lee's story, 117 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: and that's why I wrote this book. To tell the 118 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: truth about Lee. 119 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: And what is that truth? What is important for people 120 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: to understand. 121 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: Most people don't realize that the truth is that Lee 122 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 2: was opposed to slavery. Before the war, he called it 123 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: a moral and political evil, and after the war he 124 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: said that he was rejoiced that slavery had been abolished. 125 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: The truth is that he was opposed to secession. He 126 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: did not want Virginia to secede, but he felt like 127 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: when Virginia did seceed that he owed this primary allegiance 128 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: to his state, not to the United States. That's how 129 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: people viewed things back then. And so he was motivated 130 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: to fight to defend Virginia from the invasion of the 131 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: Union Army, which he did magnificently, by the way. And 132 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: you know, the truth is that after the war, he 133 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 2: was a leading voice for reconciliation. He did everything he 134 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: could to bring the country back together after the war, 135 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: and he bore all his suffering nobly, never complained. He 136 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: wasn't a whiner, and he was a noble character. And 137 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 2: you know you referenced George Orwell earlier. Orwell said that 138 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 2: who controls the past controls the future. And America's path 139 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 2: is incomplete without Roberty Lee. Because he's the greatest example 140 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: of courage and virtue in American history. That's why we 141 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 2: need him. That's why I wrote this book. 142 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: What was your connection to this what interested you in 143 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: this subject in this moment? 144 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: Well, I first got introduced to Lee in fourth grade 145 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: when I wrote a paper on him. I still have that, 146 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 2: by the way. And then I went to school at 147 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 2: Washington and Lee and Robertie Lee was everywhere and you know, 148 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties and his portrait was up in 149 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: every fraternity house, even the grocery store at a portrait 150 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: of Lee and Stonewall Jackson, and people still admired him 151 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: in those days. And so and I was in a 152 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: fraternity to capa Alpha order. Robert E. Lee is considered 153 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: the spiritual founder of Kappa Alpha. We were taught to 154 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 2: emulate General Lee's character as pledges. We didn't always live 155 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: up to that standard, but we tried. And you know, 156 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: I was fascinated that Roberty Lee was everywhere, and I thought, 157 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 2: could anybody really be that grade? He was treated like 158 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 2: a saint in the South, and being from Missouri, you know, 159 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: I had that show me factor. I thought, I got 160 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 2: to find out more about this. So the more I read, 161 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: the more fascinated I became. That Lee really is I 162 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: think the most remarkable example of character in virtue, maybe 163 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: next to George Washington in our country's history. And so 164 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: that is I think a large reason why cancel culture 165 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: is targeting him to get rid of them, because when 166 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: they eliminate heroes, they're really eliminating the values, the belief 167 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 2: systems that those heroes stood for and that's Christianity, that's 168 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 2: the love of liberty. And you know, that's what the 169 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 2: Panic fathers thought for. 170 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: You know, give you you made a point that got 171 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 1: my mind despiraling. So I think about historical events that occurred, 172 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: in this case one hundred and sixty years ago, but 173 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: in some cases even more two hundred years ago, and 174 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: I think about a relative consistency in the way in 175 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: which those events and moments and people and personalities were 176 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 1: perceived all the way for say one hundred twenty thirty 177 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 1: years after. And all of that then changes after the 178 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: events and the personalities are long gone. They changed dramatically, 179 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: beginning I think probably sometime in the nineties and then 180 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: at the turn of the century, and within one generation, 181 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: heroes are villains and villains are heroes, and good is bad. 182 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: And it's an amazing thing. We're not talking about how 183 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: Lee was perceived shortly after the Civil War, because he 184 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: was revered. You know, it's interesting there's a connection with 185 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee in the state of Texas. The song 186 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: and the eyes of Texas are upon you, whichevery University 187 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: of Texas, Longhorn knows, actually comes from the then leader 188 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: of the University of Texas who had been at Washington 189 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: Lee under Robert E. Lee. And Robert E. Lee would 190 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: famously say, as you know, you know, conduct yourself with 191 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: with chivalry and decency, because the eyes of the South 192 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: are upon you, and he considered that a great admonition. 193 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: Hold on just a moment. GiB Kerr is our guest. 194 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: That the book is Uncanceled Robert E. 195 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: Lee. With Michael Erry, they're all Duncans. 196 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: And do you know duncan means your yo. Give Kerr 197 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: is our guest. You pronounce it curror Carr Kerry katy 198 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: r R. He is the author of Uncanceled Robert E. Lee. Gibb. 199 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that there are a number of 200 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: folks with whom I am in communication who are interested 201 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: in preserving American history, even American history that that the 202 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: Obama crowd has managed to extinguish and and to paint 203 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: with a really, really bad brush, And a number of 204 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: other people who were not raised with this as their 205 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: perspective are afraid to say anything, so they just back 206 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: away and say, well, we'll just we won't think about it, 207 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: we won't talk about it because we don't want the 208 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: we don't want the hive to be buzzing around us. 209 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: It's just easier that way. There's a lack of courage. 210 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: But you don't have a lack of courage, and yet 211 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: you're not an individual who is retired, which is usually 212 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: the situation. I find you have a professional career to 213 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: consider as well, and you believe in this, and so 214 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: you're doing it. I respect that. 215 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: Tell me about that, well, I appreciate that. Yeah, I 216 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 2: did write this book at some considerable risk, knowing that 217 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 2: not everyone is going to agree with my point of view. 218 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: I've worked for a large, publicly traded commercial real estate firm, 219 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: and you know, I could have been fired, and I 220 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: might still be fired. I don't know. But that's a 221 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 2: risk that I'm willing to take because I feel strongly 222 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 2: enough about preserving the legacy of Robert E. Lee that 223 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 2: I think people need to stand up and tell the 224 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: truth about him, and you know, I'll deal with the consequences. 225 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: What has been the reaction that has emboldened you, that 226 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: has delighted you people you've heard from students, teachers, whatever 227 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: that may be. 228 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've been very pleasantly surprised. I expected 229 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: the worst, and you know, there've been some haters on 230 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: social media. They're always out there, people that leave nasty 231 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 2: Amazon reviews and that sort of thing. But for the 232 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: most part, the response has been overwhelmingly positive. It's been 233 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: people saying thank you for standing up for Roberty Lee 234 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 2: and for what he stood for. And you know, it's 235 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: kind of taught me a lesson, which is that the 236 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: the woke mobsters there are a bunch of cowards. They 237 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: don't like it when you when you stand up to them. 238 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: They're like bullies and you probably remember when you're a kid, 239 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: the best thing you can ever do to a bully 240 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: is punch them in the nose. Most of the time 241 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 2: they back down. So this book is kind of a 242 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 2: uh you know, in a in a way, sort of 243 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: a proverbial punch of the nose to the left. And 244 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: I hope more books like it follow. 245 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: I'm I'm amazed by the moment. I'm not sure how 246 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: well it's known that Robert E. Lee is summoned to 247 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: the White House to consider uh leading the union forces, 248 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: and I think it was win Phil Scott was involved 249 00:15:55,160 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: and Lee's leadership and he was just revered. His leadership 250 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: was legendary, and he has this tough decision, and he 251 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: comes home and he chooses his state, which of course 252 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: would bring ruin upon his reputation, his family, his wealth. 253 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: And yet I never got the sense that he regretted 254 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: that decision. Pit he. 255 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: No, he did not. He said, I think after the 256 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 2: war that he would have done everything the same way. Yes, 257 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 2: he was offered command of the army that Abraham Lincoln 258 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: announced he was going to raise in April of eighteen 259 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: sixty one, seventy five thousand troops. Would have been the 260 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: largest army ever assembled on North America and the North 261 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: American continent. And Lee, you know, he had toiled away 262 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 2: in obscurity for about thirty years in the US Army, 263 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 2: never surpassed the rank of colonel, and he was given 264 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: this opportunity to be in charge of the biggest army 265 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 2: ever and to be the commanding general and his chance 266 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: for glory in same and he turned it down because 267 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: he could not take part in an invasion of his 268 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 2: home state. Those were his principles, and so he chose 269 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 2: to suffer the consequences. They lost their home at Arlington, 270 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: which is now Arlington National Cemetery, lost everything. And you know, 271 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 2: it's interesting that Lee never owned his own house, and 272 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: his whole life he lived in his wife's house at Arlington, 273 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: and then after the war he lived in the president's 274 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 2: house at Washington College. But no, he said that he 275 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 2: would not have done anything differently. 276 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: Talk about his move to what became Washington and Lee 277 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: his move to be the university president, how that came about, 278 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: and how it went. 279 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: You know, the school had been raided by the Union Army. 280 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 2: It's right next to the Virginia Military Institute, which the 281 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:57,719 Speaker 2: Union Army had essentially destroyed. And after the war they 282 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 2: were down to only about forty students and they were 283 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: really teetering on the verge of insolvency. And as a 284 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 2: hail Mary, they wrote a letter to Robert E. Lee said, well, 285 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 2: you come be president of the school, And to their 286 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: shock and surprise, he said yes, and he wrote into 287 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: tad on his famous horse traveler and assumed the presidency, 288 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: and they went from forty students to over four hundred. 289 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: Money came flowing in to support to rebuild the school 290 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 2: from both the north and the south. By the way, 291 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 2: and he really he not only saved the school, but 292 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 2: he he shaped the character of the school by emphasizing 293 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: the honor Code, and by his one rule. The students 294 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 2: asked him, what are the rules here in general, and 295 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 2: he said, we have one rule, and that is that 296 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 2: every student must conduct himself as a gentleman. And so 297 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: that was the tradition at Washington and Lay that he established. 298 00:18:54,080 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: It's amazing to me that after that war he should 299 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: seemingly be broken. And yet everything I've ever read was 300 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: not that. It was that he was very measured and 301 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: very thoughtful. But as I said at the beginning, which 302 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: has always struck me about him, that there was not 303 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: a sense of regret. He was a proud Virginian. He 304 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: loved Virginia. He did his duty, and I think he 305 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: left it on the field, and he felt that he 306 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: had done what he believed to be the right thing. 307 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: And that says a lot about the man. You have 308 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: not spoken about his deep faith, but that was the man. 309 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: It was family and faith and his state, which at 310 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: the time was like his nation. 311 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: That's right, and his faith was very important to him. 312 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: I mentioned he built the chapel where he's buried, and 313 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 2: he worshiped there every morning. I encouraged the students to 314 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 2: join him there read the Bible every night, with his family. 315 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 2: A very deeply religious man, and he also studied the Stoics, 316 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: as did most Americans at that time, study the ancient 317 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 2: Greeks and the Romans, and he was particularly fond of 318 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 2: quoting the Roman emperor, the Stoic Marcus Aurelius, and his 319 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 2: meditation misfortune nobly born is good fortune. And I quote 320 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 2: that in my book because I think those words sum 321 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: up Roberty Lee perfectly. Misfortune, nobly born is good fortune. 322 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 2: And so he turned his misfortune into our fortune today, 323 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: which is his legacy that we still remember him. 324 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: Today, and that you proudly carry the torch to remember 325 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 1: as we all should. The book is uncanceled. Roberty Lee. 326 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: GiB Curry is our guest. One more thing with him 327 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: conected had nothing going on down there, probably, GiB I was. 328 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: I was reading through some of the materials I had 329 00:20:53,800 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: on this, and there was a timeline Will Dudley being 330 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: appointed president of Washington and Lee in twenty seventeen, and 331 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: then in twenty twenty begins this effort to just scrub 332 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: from the university its namesake and his influence on this school, which, 333 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: as you noted, the school was almost abandoned when he 334 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: comes in and makes this a very prestigious university with 335 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: now a great legacy of character and the sort of 336 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: thing and values that we would want kids to have. 337 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: But I was reading about, let me see if I 338 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: can find it here a group called the General's Redoubt. 339 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: Tell me about that. 340 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's as an alumni organization that I'm a member of. 341 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: I'm on the board of. And the General's re Doubt 342 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 2: kind of popped up organically among a bunch of the 343 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 2: alums who were upset about what was going on at 344 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 2: the university. So the General's for Doubt has been, you know, 345 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 2: spreading the word, raising awareness among alumni. We send out 346 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: a weekly email to about twelve thousand alumni and keep 347 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: them informed about what's going on on campus. We've raised 348 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: a considerable amount of money. We purchased a property outside 349 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 2: of town by the university where we have a national 350 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 2: headquarters now, so we've planted our flag. We're not going away, 351 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 2: and we're there to preserve the traditions, the values, the 352 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: history of the university. And we're engaging with students and 353 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 2: you know, it's funny, the students love us. The students 354 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 2: wear our hats and T shirts and whatnot. The faculty 355 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 2: in the administration that don't really care for us too much. 356 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,719 Speaker 2: The faculty, by the way, voted over is it seventy 357 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 2: or eighty percent in favor of removing Roberty Lee's name 358 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: from the university, which is unbelievable. 359 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm seeing here seventy eight percent after the president 360 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: appointed a commission to determine such things. You know, it's 361 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: a very I have a friend named Davin James, and 362 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: he has a song called a Bucco and Spreeway, and 363 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: it's about the music in Texas and how Nashville has changed. 364 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: And there's a line he has in there. I bet 365 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: they wouldn't let Wayland on the Rhyman stage today. And 366 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: the idea that you know, the grand old Lobry wouldn't 367 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: allow this great country music singer because it is so 368 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: changed to skinny jeans and pop music with a tway. 369 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: But good on you, good on you, GiB for doing this. 370 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: I think I have my own personal respect and lifelong 371 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: study of Robert E. Lee, which made this quite interesting 372 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: to me. But on a bigger scale than even that 373 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: is the idea that ideas matter, and that courage and 374 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: can viction should be our driving force, and that cancelation's 375 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: greatest power is the fear of it, because then no 376 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: one stands up for anything. And so I admire you 377 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: for that, especially because you are in the middle of 378 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: your career rather than being someone who has nothing professional 379 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: per se to lose. And I think that's fantastic. I 380 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: think that means you believe in what you're doing because 381 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: you can talk about it during the daylight hours to 382 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: people who wear suits and our potential clients and of 383 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 1: course colleagues. I think that's incredible. That is incredibly commendable, 384 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: I must say, and I hope that serves to inspire 385 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: other people as it should. At the end of all 386 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: of this, what have you come to learn? Are you 387 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: more hopeful than you were in the people of this 388 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: country and their courage or have you been disappointed at 389 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: how many people said, yeah, Roberty leave. It is a 390 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: very important figure. But let's not fight this. What what 391 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: you know? What do we gain from it? 392 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 2: Well? Well, first of all, thank you for those nice words, 393 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: and yes I am optimistic, and like I said earlier, 394 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: truth is a stubborn thing and truth always wins out 395 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 2: in the end. And we see, uh, we see the 396 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 2: small signs of progress. Roberty Lee's actually making a comeback. 397 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 2: You probably saw recently they restored the twenty foot portrait 398 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: of Roberty Lee in the library at West Point last month. 399 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 2: And I know on your show you've you've talked in 400 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 2: the past about the Midland Lee High School. There's a 401 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 2: high school in Nandoah County, Virginia, the Stonewall Jackson High School. 402 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 2: They restored their name, and I'm actually involved in a 403 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 2: as an expert witness in a suit where they're being 404 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 2: sued by the NAACP to remove the Stonewall Jackson name. 405 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 2: But that's taught me that we need to stand up 406 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 2: to these bullies, because that's that's what these mobsters are. 407 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 2: They're trying to intimidate us in the silence, and we've 408 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 2: got truth on our side. We just need to stand 409 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 2: up for the truth and have the courage of our convictions. 410 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: I think the great scourge of this nation is an 411 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: inability to confront difficult aspects of history, and racism being 412 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: one of those. But it's important to remember that this 413 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: does not happen in a vacuum. There are people who 414 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: stand to gain from it personally, professionally, financially by stoking 415 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: things and encouraging things and stretching things into untruths. And 416 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: it's very hard to have the slings and arrows of ridiculous, absurd, 417 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: hurtful things said about you and what you stand for, 418 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: and yet you have to do it right. That there 419 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: is nobility in that, to go back to your Marcus 420 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: Aurelius quote, there is nobility in that. There's a strength 421 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: in that, and it sustains itself. Yeah. I think this 422 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: is fantastic, GiB. I wish we had more time, but 423 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: keep up the good work. You are truly an inspiration. 424 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: The book is called Uncanceled. Robert E. Lee, thank you 425 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: for taking time to speak to us today, Concern. 426 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Michael really appreciate being on the show. 427 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: Don't give up, folks. Don't give up on our people, 428 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: don't give up on our land, don't give up on 429 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: our system. There are good people out there, and they're brave, 430 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: and they're courageous and their self less, and they stand 431 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: up and do what they believe to be the right thing, 432 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: knowing good and well that they will be called the 433 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: worst of names for it, and yet they persist. Wow, 434 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 1: that is just amazing to me. It really is. It's 435 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,959 Speaker 1: I used the word when our guest was on, but 436 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: it's it's an inspiration. Let that be an inspiration to 437 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 1: you and be an inspiration for the next person behind you. 438 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: If you like the Michael Berry Show and Podcast, please 439 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,959 Speaker 1: tell one friend, and if you're so inclined, write a 440 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: nice review of our podcast. 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