1 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 3: our careers and our families. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 2: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long. 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: Term career goals. 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life. 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 2: This episode is airing in late April of twenty twenty five. 14 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 2: Sarah is going to be interviewing another Sarah, Sarah Armstrong, 15 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: who is a global marketing leader and author. She's the 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: author of a book called The Art of the Juggling 17 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: Act and she is also the author of a slightly 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: older book called The Mom's Guide to a Good Divorce, 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 2: and that is a topic that Sarah and she will 20 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: be talking about in the course of this interview. And 21 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 2: divorce is a topic we've actually had people request an 22 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: episode on, and it's something we have not had close 23 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 2: experience with obviously, and so we wanted to make sure 24 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: that we could address that topic, and I know a 25 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: number of listeners have dealt with in a way that 26 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: would hopefully offer some strategies, some ways to think about 27 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 2: that are practical for navigating something complex like that. So, yeah, Sarah, 28 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: I mean, it does seem like people are potentially more 29 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: willing to talk about such things now than in the past. Yeah, 30 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: I was just thinking about it. I've definitely seen a 31 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 2: lot of divorce related content out there recently, and I 32 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: feel like other topics that previously just weren't talked about 33 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: very much include things like metopause therapy and mental health issues, 34 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: choosing to drink less alcohol or issues with alcohol, and 35 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: then even like choices around personal finance. 36 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 3: I feel like just people are just getting a little 37 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 3: more open about various things. 38 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: Probably some ups and to that. 39 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: You know, I see some things on social media I'm like, well, 40 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: I'm really glad that I am not a family member 41 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 2: of that person sharing, you know that the because it's 42 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: something that involves the whole family, and so whether you 43 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: want it to be or not, perhaps it's a child 44 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: of somebody who's sharing broadly on social media, you will 45 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 2: wind up having it be known. But there's definitely a 46 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: little bit more openness about a lot of things, and 47 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 2: certainly with something like divorce being as common as it is, 48 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: and people navigating life with like kids having two households 49 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: and the logistics of co parenting and working things out 50 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: with somebody that you are you know, no longer married to, 51 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: or dealing with step parents, and all that I mean 52 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: is there's so many logistics when their family is involved. 53 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 2: So it's good that people are out there talking about 54 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:50,279 Speaker 2: their strategies. 55 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think it can be an area 56 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 3: where someone might feel alone, and yet it's so common. 57 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 3: I mean, that's same with all those things I just mentioned, 58 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 3: like menopause, right, like you feel like you're the only one. 59 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 3: But nowadays when it's people are talking about it more, 60 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 3: I think there is solace and like, okay, other people 61 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 3: have gotten through it, what has worked, what hasn't worked, 62 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 3: And also there's a camaraderie there, like I'm not by myself. 63 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 64 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 3: Well, let's hear what Sarah Armstrong has to say about 65 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 3: this topic. Well, I am so excited to welcome Sarah 66 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 3: Armstrong to Best of both worlds. 67 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: Sarah is an. 68 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: Author, a global marketing leader, and a mother, so she 69 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 3: is a perfect fit for our show, and I'm so 70 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 3: excited to have you on, Sarah to talk all things 71 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 3: divorce and then also to talk a little bit about 72 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 3: your newest work on the Juggling Act. 73 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 4: Oh great to be with you, Sarah, Really excited to 74 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 4: be here today. 75 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 3: This episode is partly inspired by a listener who wrote 76 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 3: in with a question about talking to friends or like, 77 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 3: how friends could support another friend getting divorced, and Laura 78 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: and I tried to answer this, but we didn't do 79 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 3: a great job. Honestly, I don't think we did, and 80 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 3: we got some feedback which was we like that you tried, 81 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 3: but could you have some experts on the show to 82 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 3: really talk about how to navigate this tricky territory well, 83 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 3: since it's so common and so needed the support in 84 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 3: this area. So you were perfect, Sarah. You've written a 85 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 3: book called The Mom's Guide to a Good Divorce. Can 86 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: you give us a little bit of your good divorce 87 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 3: story before we get started? 88 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 4: Sure? Sure? You know what I like to start with, though, 89 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 4: is you know, just for the record, I'm actually not 90 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 4: an advocate for divorce, and an ideal world, couples that 91 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 4: get married would stay happily married for the long term, 92 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 4: but Unfortunately, as you mentioned, this is more common than ever, 93 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 4: it's not always the case that that's what happens. And 94 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 4: so one of the things that I want reflect on 95 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 4: with the topic of divorce is that no one gets 96 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 4: married to get divorced, right, It's not like you plan 97 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 4: that You're like, oh, okay, when I get married, and then 98 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 4: I get divorced. And no one gets divorced for positive reasons. 99 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 4: There's usually something that's triggered a divorce. But children who 100 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 4: are part of a family that goes for divorce don't 101 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 4: get to make the decision that their parents are going 102 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 4: to get divorced in their lives are the most significantly 103 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 4: impacted by this decision. So for my own journey is 104 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 4: I was actually my daughter Grace, who's now twenty two 105 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 4: in Fairna. She's graduating from college this year. But when 106 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 4: she was seven years old, we went through a divorce, 107 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 4: and so she was in first grade and I was 108 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 4: the first of my friends to go through divorce, and 109 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,799 Speaker 4: she was the first of her classmates and little friends 110 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 4: in the neighborhood to go through it as well. So 111 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 4: one of the things as we went through a divorce 112 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 4: and I grew up with a very happily married couple 113 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 4: as my parents. They've been married fifty seven years this year, 114 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 4: so I know which is amazing and just they are 115 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 4: the true picture of partnership. And so I had a 116 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 4: picture in mind of what marriage looked like. But I 117 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 4: had also seen really ugly divorces growing up. Some of 118 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 4: my parents' friends had gone through divorces that really stuck 119 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 4: with me. And so when we got to the point 120 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 4: where my ex husband and I decided that we were 121 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 4: no longer going to be together, I had said to him, 122 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 4: I have to believe there's a better way to do 123 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 4: it than what I watched growing up. And I don't 124 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 4: want Grace to be collateral damage in this divorce. That 125 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 4: was the whole thing, like what do we do so 126 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 4: she is not cloudbal damage. So we took a very 127 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 4: conscious approach to our divorce process. And then what was 128 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 4: interesting is over the years after a divorce, I had 129 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 4: a number of girlfriends that would come to me and 130 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 4: they had made the decision to go down that path. 131 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 4: And I joke that the girl who never ever thought 132 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 4: she would get a divorce became the poster child for 133 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 4: a good divorce. And so my friends were asking me 134 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 4: for guidance, and so I'd sit down with them over 135 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 4: a glass of wine in my living room and we'd 136 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 4: talk through things, and at the end of each of 137 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 4: their respective journeys, they'd say to me, you should really 138 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 4: write this stuff down. And I said, well, I'm not 139 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 4: a writer and I don't really think I'm ever going 140 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 4: to do that, but okay. But what happened was I 141 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 4: was actually at a business dinner in Mexico City number 142 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 4: of years ago, and I sat next to a colleague 143 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 4: and friend of mine and he looked at me and 144 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 4: he said, Sarah, you're so happy, and I said, well, yeah, 145 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 4: I'm really happy. He goes, but you're divorced, and I said, well, 146 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 4: getting divorce is not a death sentence. I said, I'm happy, 147 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 4: Grace is happy, Max husband's happy. I'm like, you can 148 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 4: be happy and be divorced. That those two are not 149 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 4: something that can't be in the same sense. And so 150 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 4: I just think in our society there's not enough conversation 151 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 4: about the topic of how to have a good divorce, Like, 152 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 4: if you're going to go through on this process, go 153 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 4: through the process and go down this path, why can't 154 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 4: it be that the end of it you're happy, your 155 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 4: children are happy, your expouse is happy. You can have 156 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 4: a healthy relationship with your expouse regardless of what triggered 157 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 4: the divorce, because so again, there's always going to be 158 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 4: a trigger. So I would really love to help kind 159 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 4: of shift that societal perception that a good divorce isn't attainable. 160 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 3: Walk that makes so much sense. I mean, nobody goes 161 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 3: into the idea of having a big change in their 162 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 3: life if they weren't trying to be happier. 163 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 4: Well, and you know what, that's the funny thing that's there. 164 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 4: I've had someone say to me that I make divorce 165 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 4: look too good, and I've said, and anytime I mean 166 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 4: that is said to me, I said, I'm just trying 167 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 4: to be happy. You know, at the end of the day, 168 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 4: that's what this is about. You're right, And so if 169 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 4: you can't have that as a goal at the end 170 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 4: of this, then you know, are you doing it so 171 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 4: that you're not happy? That's you know, that doesn't make 172 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 4: any sense. So you're right, that is a goal with 173 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 4: any major change. But it is interesting how people perceive 174 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 4: divorce in the fact that because that is the action 175 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 4: you've gone through, and that's why I say it is 176 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 4: an action getting divorced. Action you get divorced. It does 177 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 4: not need to be a scarlet letter that you and 178 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 4: your children carry around with you for the rest of 179 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 4: your lives. 180 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 3: That makes sense, and it's an active choice. 181 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 4: It is an active choice, absolutely. 182 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 3: So going back and you break the idea of a 183 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 3: divorce into multiple phases, and maybe you can talk a 184 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 3: little bit about your phases and then also the tips 185 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 3: you kind of have for each of these phases. But 186 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 3: you talk about preparing for the divorce. I don't know 187 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 3: if part of that is also like the decision, Yes, 188 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 3: the during the actual change and then post change and 189 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 3: the year of first that ensues once you've made this 190 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: big change in your life. Yes, beginning with the pre period. 191 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: Can you talk a little bit about your experience and 192 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 3: then kind of your biggest tips for that phase. 193 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, So I think you know, when you're preparing 194 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 4: for divorce or you're potentially considering it, one of the 195 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 4: things that I think is most important is your mindset. 196 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 4: And it goes back to what I just said that 197 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 4: your mindset is essential. That you're going into this with 198 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 4: putting your children first every step of the way, and 199 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 4: that is sometimes one of the hardest things there for 200 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 4: people to do, because emotions run so high during a 201 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 4: divorce that sometimes the kids get lost, quite nicely, get 202 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 4: lost in the shuffle. And one of the things I've 203 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 4: reflected on over the years is when you are a 204 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 4: couple and you've decided to no longer be married, you've 205 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 4: made that decision, and that's fine. But your children when 206 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 4: they're in that situation with you and I say that, 207 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 4: we put bike helmets on them, and we feed them 208 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 4: organic milk, and we do all these things to make 209 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 4: them healthy and happy. But if you put them in 210 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 4: a what I consider a toxic situation and you're not 211 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 4: clear on how you want to protect your children through 212 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 4: this process, they can sit in that negative, potentially toxic 213 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 4: situation for months and even years, depending how long the 214 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 4: process takes. And so the reason I think mindset's so 215 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 4: essential is you have to from the very beginning, make 216 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 4: a commitment that you're going to keep your children front 217 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 4: and center and what is best for them at every 218 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 4: step of the way, every decision you make. And if 219 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 4: you do that, I actually think it helps you to 220 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 4: focus on what's most important at the end of this 221 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 4: which is that your children will make it through be 222 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 4: able to be confident in themselves, because I do think 223 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 4: going back to the toxicity, if you don't it can 224 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 4: have serious ramifications on how children view relationships, how they 225 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 4: viewed their view on marriage, and actually even their own 226 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 4: happiness in life. I mean, I talked to friends whose 227 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 4: parents got divorced in their forties and fifties, and they 228 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 4: can still talk about what a dramatic impact it had 229 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 4: on their lives, you know. And I wanted Grace to 230 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 4: look back and have it as like a comment but 231 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 4: not the focus. You know, me and my parents are divorced, 232 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 4: but not yes, because my parents' divorce X, Y, and 233 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 4: Z was how my life unfolded. So I think mindset, 234 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 4: sort of go back mindset is essential. It's one of 235 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 4: the first things that I think you have to do. 236 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 4: The second is really to think about how you want 237 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 4: to put the process in place in terms of obviously 238 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 4: your legal support and your financial view and all those things. 239 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 4: Those are kind of the basics and you need to 240 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 4: do that. But one of the things when I was 241 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 4: preparing for the change, as I call it, was thinking 242 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 4: about how we would manage Grace's life once the change happened. 243 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 4: So it's thinking ahead, okay, and really thinking ahead. So 244 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 4: the example I shares, we actually went to a therapist 245 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 4: to talk to him before we were going to tell 246 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 4: Grace that we were getting a divorce, and he sat 247 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 4: us down and he looked at me to go, Sarah, 248 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 4: do you travel? And I said, yeah, I actually travel 249 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 4: internationally for my job. And he looks at Max's husband 250 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 4: and he says, you travel and I said, yeah, I traveled, 251 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 4: and he said, I travel domestically. He said, well, Grace 252 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 4: is about to become a professional traveler. She's going to 253 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 4: travel every week for the next eleven years until she 254 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 4: goes off to college, and she's going to have to 255 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 4: pack a bag. And I burst into tears because I thought, 256 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 4: that is not what I want for Grace's life. I 257 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 4: don't want her to feel like she's traveling every week 258 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 4: and carrying a bag and all these things. So I 259 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 4: walked out of that session Sarah, and I looked at 260 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 4: Max's husband and I said, I don't know what this 261 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 4: looks like, but I want to figure out how we 262 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 4: avoid Grace feeling like she's a professional traveler every week. 263 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 4: Super interesting, Yeah, and it's one of those things and 264 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 4: so what we did, and I do appreciate some of 265 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 4: the things. I'll share a bit have some socio economic considerations. 266 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 4: But what we did try to do is that Grace 267 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 4: had all the basics at both homes. Okay, so when 268 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 4: she went to school in first grade and she was 269 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 4: going to either mom or Dad's house after school, she 270 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 4: wasn't carrying an extra bag in the carpool line as 271 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 4: the only kid in her class that had divorced parents, Like, 272 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 4: why do you have that extra bag? What do you know? 273 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 4: So I didn't want that for her, So we tried 274 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 4: to have all the basics at both homes. Now I 275 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 4: do joke that somehow all the socks got over to 276 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 4: one house. I don't know how, I don't know how. 277 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 3: It was probably always the house, so she wasn't in. 278 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 4: Exact exactly there's socks, so something always migrated the other house. 279 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 4: So what we did, and this is important at least 280 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 4: from my standpoint, is we would have rebalancing days where 281 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 4: I would text Mex husband say hey, I'm at a sox, 282 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 4: I'm at a shorts, whatever the case was, and then 283 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 4: it wasn't by the way, it wasn't up for Grace 284 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 4: at age seven or eight or nine to go into 285 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 4: her dresser and in her closets and figure out what 286 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 4: was supposed to be at one house to another. She 287 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 4: did not choose to live across two homes, right, she 288 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 4: didn't choose that. So it was up to us to 289 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 4: go and to figure out what that was and then 290 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 4: to rebounce. And then we would carry the little bag 291 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 4: of things that we needed to take to their home, 292 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 4: and when we transitioned, we'd handle it to the other 293 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 4: parent and then I would go and put it back 294 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 4: up in her dresser. Again, it wasn't like, hey, Grace, 295 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 4: go put this away, and she shouldn't have to resort 296 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 4: her clothes because she lives across two homes. So it's 297 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 4: a small thing, but it's all those signals to a 298 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 4: child that they're not living exactly like all their friends are. 299 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 4: So we just tried to minimize those things whenever we could. 300 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 3: That is a wonderful practical tip. We're going to take 301 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 3: a quick break and we will be right back with 302 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 3: maybe more about the during the change phase. All right, 303 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 3: we are back. So I love that mindset preparation and 304 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 3: the practical idea of making sure it's not moving from 305 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 3: one world to the other, but that we have two homes, 306 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 3: we have two worlds that we feel equally comfortable in. 307 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: What else did you do or do you recommend doing 308 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 3: during that change. 309 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, So one of the other things that I think 310 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 4: you have to realize, especially that first year post divorce, 311 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 4: as I call it preparing for a year first. And 312 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 4: there's going to be things that you go through, first birthdays, 313 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 4: first clients, any of the holidays that you would normally 314 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 4: go through, and you may have family traditions that you 315 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 4: either have decided you want to try to continue or 316 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 4: things you can't continue because of the change in structure 317 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 4: of the family. And so I say that you go 318 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 4: through that year first, and after each of those first 319 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 4: you need to evaluate did that work for you and 320 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 4: for your kids, Like is it something you repeat next 321 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 4: year in year two or did it have an impact 322 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 4: in some way where we'd say, you know what, I'm 323 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 4: not doing it again that way next year. And so 324 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 4: that was something that that first year, I was very 325 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 4: conscious of how we were all kind of adjusting to 326 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 4: this new world and I call it the new normal 327 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 4: of being divorced. So I would say overall we had 328 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 4: some great positives, but my first holiday without Grace was 329 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 4: really hard, really hard. And I looked at it, and 330 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 4: I looked at the dynamics around and I said, I'm 331 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 4: not doing this again this next year, because we were 332 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 4: alternating holidays, so I'd have her like for Thanksgiving, but 333 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 4: not for Christmas or vice versa. And so I made 334 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 4: a decision that I would change my tradition the years 335 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 4: that I didn't have her, and I would actually travel 336 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 4: and not go and spend the holiday with my family, 337 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 4: with my nieces and nephews and not have Grace there. 338 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 4: It felt very strange to me. It's just like, this 339 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 4: doesn't feel right. So I think you have to evalue 340 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 4: it for yourself what works, and then decide how you 341 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 4: want to take those year first into the next year 342 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 4: and which things you continue with, which things you don't. 343 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 4: And then another thing that I think is a very 344 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 4: practice but really an interesting moment that we had during 345 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 4: our divorce era, I should say, is Grace was in 346 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 4: sixth grades, so it was about five years after we 347 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 4: got divorced. And one of the things I find interesting 348 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 4: is that I think Grace should always feel like her 349 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 4: parents are both there for her whatever it is. So 350 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 4: we were going to a parent teacher conference and in 351 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 4: her school, the child actually goes in sixth grade, the 352 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,959 Speaker 4: child goes to the conference with the teachers and the parents. 353 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 4: So Grace and Max husband I show up and we 354 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 4: go into the and sit down as a teacher and 355 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 4: we're talking, and about almost nearer the end of the conference, 356 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: the teacher stops and she looks as she goes, wait 357 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 4: a minute, are you too divorced? And I looked and 358 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 4: I said, yeah, we've been divorced for five years. She said, 359 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 4: I had no idea. And I looked her and said, well, 360 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 4: it didn't occur to me to come in here into 361 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,479 Speaker 4: Grace's parent teacher conference say hi, we're divorced. Can we 362 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 4: not talk about how Grace is doing in school? And 363 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 4: she said, you know what's amazing is there so few 364 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 4: parents they can come and sit in this office with 365 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 4: me for one hour and talk about their child's education, 366 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 4: being in the same room together. She was, it is 367 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 4: very very rare. 368 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: You are right. 369 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 3: I'm a physician for kids, and there are a few. 370 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 3: And I love it so much, and you're right, it 371 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 3: does make me like, wow, they did this for the kid, 372 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 3: like they may not be enjoying it. I can think 373 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 3: of one family in particular, and they're obviously amicable and 374 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 3: their focus is wholly on their kid. But it is 375 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 3: absolutely the exception rather than the rule, which is really sad. 376 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 4: Isn't that crazy? Yeah? And that's it's exactly what the 377 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 4: teacher she goes. It makes me really sad that that's 378 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 4: the case. And I said to her, it makes me 379 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 4: really sad, because what's more important than sitting down with 380 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 4: a child and their teacher to hear how they're doing school? 381 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 4: Probably the second second to going to the doctor and 382 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 4: hearing that your child is healthy. Right, And so I 383 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 4: think that's where again, this belief that you can't do 384 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 4: that or that that's something you shouldn't be able to do. 385 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 4: I think we've got to change that because otherwise what 386 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 4: happens that child has to go to two parent teacher 387 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 4: conferences or by the way, and the teacher has to 388 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 4: do two parent teacher conferences, And I think why, you know, 389 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 4: why is that the norm versus the exception? 390 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 3: Yeah? 391 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 4: Right? 392 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 3: And the takeaways are like the nuance, isn't it's different 393 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 3: when there's two because then they're not hearing the same message. 394 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 3: People aren't able to like kind of come to a 395 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 3: common understanding, you actually do lose. You lose a lot. 396 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 4: You lose a lot, you lose a lot. So that's again, 397 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 4: these are just what I would say, examples of what 398 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 4: we have to think through. And it's all the day 399 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 4: to day Sarah, It's all the day to day moments 400 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 4: that I think you have to think about. And my 401 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 4: final probably example that I think I feel very strongly 402 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 4: about is when you have a situation where maybe one 403 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 4: parent might be staying in the home, like why Grace 404 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 4: and I stayed in the home that we had been 405 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 4: in and my ex husband moved to a different home. 406 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 4: And what I talk about is what I call minimizing 407 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 4: the gaps. And we, for example, had a long hallway 408 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 4: of family photos that was interspersed to my ex husband's 409 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 4: family and there were black and white photos. This is 410 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 4: montage I'd put together over the years, and I needed 411 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 4: to give him his photos, his family photos. So I 412 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 4: took it upon myself to get other photos framed. And 413 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 4: one day I sent Grace down the street to a 414 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 4: playdate and I took out this box and I took 415 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 4: down the photos of myx husband his family. I put 416 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 4: up some other photos of us and I put it 417 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 4: all away, and Grace came home an hour later, and 418 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 4: I'm in the kitchen and I hear this little voice 419 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 4: from how we go, Hey, Mommy, and I go, what Zachly, 420 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 4: she goes, the wall has changed. And I stopped in 421 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 4: my tracks and I said, well, what's changed? She said, 422 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 4: there are more pictures of me up there. It looks great. 423 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 4: And she ran upstairs to her room and I stood 424 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 4: there and took a deep breath. I was like, and 425 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 4: the thing is, if I hadn't taken the time to 426 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 4: put other photos up there, and I'd only taken the 427 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 4: photos of my ex usband's family down and left those 428 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 4: little hangers interspersed throughout the hallway, what Grace would be 429 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 4: telling a therapist years later as my parents got divorced, 430 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 4: and my mom took all the photos of my dad 431 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 4: off the wall and left those little hangers. 432 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 3: And it's probably such a metaphor for other things too. 433 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 4: Right, absolutely, And so I just think that it's something 434 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 4: we have to be conscious of as our children notice everything. 435 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 4: They notice everything. By the way, I thought that hallway 436 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 4: was wallpaper. I mean, I didn't think she ever knew. 437 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 4: I mean, and she ran up and down that hallway 438 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 4: literally fifty times a day. It would not have been 439 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 4: something I thought she noticed. She noticed it instantly, and 440 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 4: I thought, wow, okay, you know so I just think 441 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 4: these are And again I go back to there's big 442 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 4: things in those little things in life, but a lot 443 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 4: of what happens in a divorce process and then ensuing 444 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 4: days after that is the day to day of life, 445 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 4: and you have to think about the impact those moments 446 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 4: have on your children. And really, I talk about taking 447 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 4: the high road because it may not be what you 448 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 4: would want, right, but quite honestly, it's not about you. 449 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 3: It doesn't matter. 450 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's about how your kids are 451 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 4: going to look back in this era, in this phase 452 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 4: of life and say, you know what, my parents got 453 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 4: a divorce, but they really always try to think about 454 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 4: what was going to be best for me and my 455 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 4: siblings if their siblings evolved. And I give them credit 456 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 4: for doing that. I know it wasn't easy. I'm sure 457 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 4: it wasn't easy, but that's what they did totally makes sense. 458 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to ask you one question which was 459 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,959 Speaker 3: inspired by that listener question we got, but we're going 460 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 3: to take another really quick break and then we'll be 461 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 3: right back. All right, we are back, And the question 462 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 3: we had gotten from a listener was something like, my 463 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 3: really good friend is getting divorced. How can I best 464 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 3: supporter during this time? 465 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 4: So? 466 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 3: What works? What were the best types of supports that 467 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 3: you received while you were going through this? And is 468 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 3: there anything specifically not to do? 469 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 4: Oh it's a great question, you know. I think in 470 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 4: terms of what to do, I think as a friend, 471 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 4: I think just being there for your friend and saying, 472 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 4: you know, I can be there for you know. I joke. 473 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 4: The thing you might need is just a near like 474 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 4: someone to talk to, But it might be a friend 475 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 4: that says, you know what, if you can't pick up 476 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 4: for carpool that day, call me in a heartbeat. It 477 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 4: depends on, you know, what that friendship looks like. But 478 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 4: I think it's just being there and having that friend 479 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 4: know that you're there for whatever they need as you're 480 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 4: going through this. The other thing I'd say, and I 481 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 4: tried to say this and sometimes it worked and sometimes 482 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 4: it didn't. But I was not looking for to pick 483 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 4: sides in the situation. Again. I wanted our friendships, whether 484 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 4: they were with my ex husband, I as a couple situation, 485 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 4: or you know, I wanted those friendships to be able 486 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 4: to continue in whatever form and fashion they should. So 487 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 4: I really was like, this isn't about picking sides. It's like, 488 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 4: I just want us all to be able to live 489 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 4: this next phase of life and have the friendships we 490 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 4: had before. So I think that's another thing to think 491 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 4: about as a friend. And then the final thing is 492 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 4: that understanding what your friend wants the messaging to be 493 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 4: around their divorce and then just kind of stay true 494 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 4: to that and honor whatever that is. It may be 495 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 4: that they say, you know what, I really don't want 496 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 4: to get into the details. It's happened, it is what 497 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 4: it is. Others they may want you to help them 498 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 4: to message it into the world so that everyone understands 499 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 4: they're going through this, They're going to be fine, the 500 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 4: kids are gonna be fine, et cetera. So just appreciating 501 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 4: that might be a role a friend asks you to play, 502 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 4: and then just being really clear with each other and 503 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 4: what that looks. 504 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 3: Like makes sense. All right, But we're going to take 505 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 3: a quick pivot because you also released a book that's 506 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 3: very very relevant to this audience. In fact, I have 507 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 3: a quote from you which said, one of my goals 508 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 3: in life is to show that you can have a 509 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 3: family and a career, be happy in both aspects of 510 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 3: your life, and enjoy each day to the fullest. And 511 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 3: that is like our tagline as well. It's making work 512 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 3: in life fit together and really enjoying both the best 513 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 3: of both worlds. Is where our title comes from. So 514 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 3: clearly we see eye to eye on some of this. Yes, 515 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,479 Speaker 3: and this is actually your book that's out, like just 516 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 3: came out, correct. 517 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, it just came out. It's called The Art 518 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 4: of a Juggling Act and it's a bite sized guide 519 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 4: for working parents. And so it is as you said, 520 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 4: and it is what your podcast is all about. Over 521 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 4: the years, I've reflected in the fact that we learn 522 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,479 Speaker 4: about a lot of different topics in school. However, we 523 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 4: do not learn about parenting in school, right, it's not 524 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 4: a course you generally take. We also don't learn about 525 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 4: how to manage our career in school. We might learn 526 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 4: about topics that we might want to do in our career, 527 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 4: but how to manage your career. And then we don't 528 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 4: learn about how to manage both of these aspects of 529 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 4: our life in school, which are two of the most 530 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 4: important things in life that we're going to do right 531 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 4: and importantly trying to do them and be healthy and 532 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 4: happy while we're doing both. And so my goal is 533 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 4: really to pay it forward to the next generation of 534 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 4: working parents that I have the pleasure of working with 535 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 4: every day, and I'm watching them try to figure out 536 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 4: the juggling act, and so I just have decided I 537 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 4: wanted to share some thoughts and shift. What I see 538 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 4: is I see some parents kind of surviving the day 539 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 4: to day, and I'd love to see them thriving as 540 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 4: working parents and really enjoying this journey that you're on 541 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 4: as a working parent. But I know and I completely 542 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 4: appreciate that that doesn't just happen, and it does take 543 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 4: some intentional thought and really kind of actively thinking about 544 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 4: how you want to show up both as a parent 545 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 4: and in your work in the day to day in 546 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 4: a way where you can try to do both well. 547 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 3: And your book has a manual feel to it to me, 548 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 3: like it it's like, kind of honestly like it would 549 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 3: be great to give someone when they're pregnant if they planning, 550 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 3: because it's sort of like goes step by step everything 551 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 3: from family traditions to setting boundaries to like all these things, 552 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 3: and it is one take, like it's your take, but 553 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 3: at the same time, like this is hard to find 554 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 3: in the cultural geist. And I also like that you 555 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 3: mentioned it is for parents. It's not for moms, it's 556 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 3: us all parents. 557 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 4: It's for all parents. Yes, it's for all parents. And 558 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 4: actually both of my books are written in a very 559 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 4: specific way Sarah's. They're called guides for a reason that 560 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 4: they're in bite sized pieces and every topic is a 561 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 4: paragraph for a page. So in the Juggling Act book, 562 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 4: I have one hundred and forty topics outlined in the 563 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 4: Mom's Guide for a Good Divorce of one hundred and 564 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 4: eighty five, and the table of contents is outlined topic 565 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 4: by topic, So if you just want to go in 566 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 4: and look for the topic that might be something you're 567 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 4: thinking through, you can just read that page. One of 568 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 4: the things that I say in general is as working parents, 569 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 4: we don't have time to really read a book. Let's 570 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 4: be clear, like that is not something that is generally. 571 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 3: Laura might push back on that a little bit. 572 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 4: She might look back again. I know, well, I appreciate that. 573 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 4: But here's the thing I think that some parents do 574 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 4: prioritize it. Some it's just it's the thing that falls 575 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 4: off to life. 576 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 3: Some prefer not to or they like to do it. 577 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 4: These things they like to or they might want to 578 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 4: listen to something right or take in podcasts, different ways 579 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 4: of getting information. So the reason I wrote the book 580 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 4: in this way is for it to be bite sized 581 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 4: for you to take and not to feel like you 582 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 4: have to read it cover to cover. It is a guide. 583 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 4: It's meant to be with you along your journey and 584 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 4: not be something that you just read once and put 585 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 4: away on the shelf. 586 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: So and it does. 587 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 4: It covers everything from how to set and protect your 588 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 4: boundaries in the day to day, which I think is 589 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 4: one of the most important things we can do as parents, 590 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 4: is really figuring out what boundaries we want to put 591 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 4: in place, both for our personal life and for our family, 592 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 4: but also professionally. And I generally say that you need 593 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 4: to also share those boundaries with the people around you, 594 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 4: because if you don't share the boundaries that you set 595 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 4: for yourself, people will walk all over them in a heartbeat. 596 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 4: And the only way they can respect boundaries is if 597 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 4: they do about them. It's one of those important. 598 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 3: Things I found that It had a very like and 599 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 3: I liked this a lot, like an unapologetic tone, like, 600 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 3: you know, we're doing this and we're going to have 601 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 3: to think through it, and we should try to not 602 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 3: go down the guilt road because there's not really a 603 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 3: reason or role for that, and here are lots of 604 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 3: ways in which you can make it work. 605 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, and it is. It's meant to be very practical. 606 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 4: And you're right, a bit of unapologetic. 607 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: That's right, you know, a good way, in a good way. 608 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 4: Yeah. One of my favorite sayings to Grace as she 609 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 4: was growing up is Mom's doing the best I can, 610 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 4: you know, doing the best I can. And so that 611 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 4: was like my little mantra that I would say to 612 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 4: her because there were days that things weren't going quite 613 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 4: as planned, and I'd say, in any given week, there's 614 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 4: things that don't go quite as planned. And so the 615 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 4: ability to flex and say, you know what, we did 616 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 4: the best we could in that moment is I think 617 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 4: something that's really important. And sometimes I think we all 618 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 4: have set such a high bar for ourselves in terms 619 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 4: of how everything is supposed to go and how everything 620 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 4: is supposed to look and how and I think it 621 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 4: is a matter of us giving ourselves the race to 622 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 4: know that we're doing the best we can as we're 623 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 4: trying to manage to struggling at. 624 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 3: I love that that ending sentence, especially because your daughter's 625 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 3: name is great. Yes, and we always do. Sorry I 626 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 3: didn't even warn you about this, but we always have 627 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 3: a segment in each episode called Love of the Week 628 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 3: where you share something that is bringing you joy. It 629 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 3: can be anything off the top of the head. It 630 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 3: can be a product that you bought. It can be 631 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 3: a scent that you smelled outside, it can be anything. Okay, 632 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: I can go first, just to just to give you 633 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 3: a minute. My love of the week is that I 634 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 3: got a new laptop after six years of having one. 635 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 3: It was a MacBook Pro and I really loved that 636 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 3: machine except the keyboard never actually worked, or maybe it 637 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 3: worked in the very beginning, but the key is stuck 638 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 3: and I just dealt with it for year after year 639 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 3: after year, and honestly, it's not until I have this 640 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 3: new one that I'm like, Wow, typing's really easy. It 641 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 3: was like introducing typos where there weren't any, and I 642 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 3: just put up with it. So loving my new MacBook 643 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 3: Air that seems to not have the same keyboard at all. 644 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: I love that. 645 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 4: Okay, I might take a slightly different angle, but a 646 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 4: love for me this week is Grace and I were 647 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 4: just talking the other night. She is graduating from college, 648 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 4: which is a very very big deal, and she is, 649 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 4: you know, embarking on this process of interviewing for jobs 650 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 4: and finding her path. And I think the love for 651 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 4: me is just hearing her so excited and confident about 652 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,479 Speaker 4: heading out into the world. And I've always said I've 653 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 4: raised her for her wings to fly, and I'm seeing 654 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 4: the wings fly, and so I think for me that's 655 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 4: been That was we talked on. She's in college, so 656 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 4: we talk on Sunday nights and kind of catch up, 657 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 4: and so we had a great discussion last night on 658 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 4: how she's thinking about things, and you know, and it's 659 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 4: at a different stage of parenting life when you're kind 660 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 4: of listening and you're giving some commentary, but it's her life, 661 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 4: and so I just love that she's at that stage 662 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 4: and that we're able to kind of talk through things 663 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 4: as she's thinking through it. So I'd say that's that's 664 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 4: my love of the week was our conversation about kind 665 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 4: of this next phase and all that she's thinking through. 666 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: I love that. 667 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 3: So tell our listeners where they can find you. 668 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 4: Great. So yeah, So I have actually have two websites 669 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 4: from my respective books. So the Juggling Act dot Com 670 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 4: is for the parenting book, and then the Mom's Guide 671 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 4: to a Good Divorce is on Good Divorce dot guide. 672 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 4: And you can also find both of my books on Amazon, 673 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 4: and actually the Mom's Guide to Good Divorces in paperback, ebook, iBook, 674 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 4: kindlenook all those as well as an audiobook, and The 675 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 4: Juggling Act is in paperback and ebook I book. I 676 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 4: have not yet gone into the studio to do the audio. 677 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 4: I will do that, I haven't done it quite yet. 678 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 4: And then also you can reach out to me on 679 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 4: LinkedIn is probably the best way to connect with me, 680 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 4: and also have my contact information on both of my websites. 681 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 3: So awesome, and we will put your sites on the 682 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 3: show notes as well. 683 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 4: Great. 684 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 3: Great, Thank you so much for coming on, Sarah. 685 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. Great to spend 686 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 4: time with you. 687 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 2: Well, we are back. That was a great interview. Sarah 688 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: talking with Sarah Armstrong, the author of The Mom's Guide 689 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 2: to a Good Divorce along with the Art of the 690 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 2: juggling act, lots of tips and strategies. So today's question 691 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 2: Sarah ideas for what to have thirteen to fourteen year 692 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 2: olds do over the summer if they are aged out 693 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 2: of day camp or at least don't want to go 694 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 2: to it. 695 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 3: So question for Sarah, because Sarah wrote the question, wrote 696 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 3: the question. 697 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 2: Sometimes these questions are our questions that forced us to 698 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: think about what we're saying. 699 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: Well, what's your situation here? 700 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's always been easy to find various summer 701 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 3: activities for the kids. I feel like we've generally tried 702 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 3: to choose specialty camps based on their interest, just because 703 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 3: especially in the older elementary school and beyond years, I 704 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 3: feel like that's been more of a draw. And then 705 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 3: there's been some weeks of sleep away. But I just 706 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 3: feel like this is the first year where there's not 707 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 3: a lot of offerings. A lot of camps go to twelve, 708 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 3: and not a lot of them go beyond that. I mean, 709 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 3: overnight camps do, but my kids have not had interested 710 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 3: a traditional overnight camp. I guess I could have done 711 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 3: like two full sessions of the Monday to Friday camp 712 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 3: for six weeks, but that just sort of felt like 713 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 3: a little bit of overkill. Plus she has other sports 714 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 3: and stuff, so yeah, I mean, I'm sort of like 715 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 3: wondering if doing a few hours of gymnastics practices three 716 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 3: days a week will be enough. But the unfortunate thing 717 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,439 Speaker 3: is that those practices are at like four not it'd 718 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 3: be wonderful if they written noon, that would be plenty, 719 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 3: but like at four, I don't know. 720 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: So she's not waking up before noon. 721 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 3: No, she won't. She'll She'll probably start waking up at two, 722 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 3: and then you've got like a lot of late night 723 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 3: Hours's totally different. 724 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 2: She'll be nocturnal the rest of you, because eight hours before. 725 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: Two pm is six am. 726 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 3: I can hardly imagine like I'm getting up and she's 727 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 3: going to bed. So yeah, trying to avoid that, and 728 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 3: just I want to make sure that nobody gets too bored. 729 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 3: So I don't know. For me, I was always like 730 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 3: a cit so counselor and training. I feel like she 731 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 3: would actually love that. So I'm going to try to 732 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 3: see if I can find anything. But I think some 733 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 3: of the programs these days kind of start a little 734 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 3: bit older, so we're in this weird gray zone. 735 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is a weird gray zone. 736 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 2: So my kid in that age range has one week 737 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: of sleepaway camp, one week helping out with our church's 738 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: Bible camp, two weeks of theater camp, hoping she'll be 739 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 2: able to get together with a cousin for a week. 740 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 2: There might be some friends stuff going on as well, 741 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 2: with friends going places and taking her along, but you know, 742 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 2: there might also be some downtime. My other kid, who's 743 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 2: probably too young to really well, he could get a job, 744 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 2: the fifteen year old, but he's taking two online courses 745 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 2: as a summer thing. But I think we're gonna have 746 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: to enforce a certain hours work hours thing with that, 747 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 2: because yeah, there will be a lot of sleeping until 748 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 2: noon two four two. I think you know, we could say, 749 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 2: like get yourself up by ten. That seems reasonable to 750 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 2: be working at ten thirty or eleven, do four hours 751 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 2: of work or five with a break, and then you 752 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 2: can go hang out with friends, do video games until 753 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 2: ridiculous hours. But people are busy during the school year, 754 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 2: so I gain it's not the worst thing in the 755 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 2: world to have some downtime. But yeah, we've sent kids 756 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 2: in that age range to there's some like like CTY 757 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 2: has three weeks summer academic camps. 758 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: That's been something people have done. 759 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 2: Some of the universities have pre college programs that if 760 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 2: you're a freshman or above, you could go to so 761 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 2: a little bit older fourteen fifteen, but that could still 762 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 2: work for some kids in that age. 763 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 4: Cool. 764 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 3: All right, well, listeners, you can feel free to weigh 765 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 3: on on this one as well. Let us know what 766 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 3: you've done, what has worked, or feel free to just commisserate. 767 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, all right, Well, this has been best of 768 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 2: both worlds. Sarah was interviewing Sarah Armstrong, author of The 769 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 2: Mom's Guide to a Good Divorce. We will be back 770 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 2: next week with more on making work and life fit together. 771 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 772 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram. 773 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 2: And you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 774 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 2: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please 775 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 2: join us next time for more on making work and 776 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 2: life work together.