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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if.

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Speaker 2: You've had experience with manipulation or abusive power that you'd

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Speaker 2: like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Shoot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, trust me, trust me. I'm like a swat person. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I've never lived. To you, never a live.

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Speaker 4: If you think that one person has all the answers.

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Speaker 2: Don't welcome to trust Me. WHOA The podcast about cult,

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Speaker 2: extreme belief, the abusive power from two sorority sisters who've

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Speaker 2: actually experienced it. I am Low LeBlanc and I am

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Speaker 2: Megan Elizabeth. For the record, my voice sounds like this

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Speaker 2: because I am once again sick.

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Speaker 5: I love it.

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Speaker 2: I had COVID like a month ago and I am

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Speaker 2: extremely sick. Well I'm getting better now, but I've been

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Speaker 2: extremely sick again. I feel like I sound really sexy,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I'm sultry.

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Speaker 5: I love it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want you to be on like a late

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Speaker 1: night nineties radio show and just oh god, yeah, talk

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Speaker 1: me to sleep in middle school not in a sexual way,

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Speaker 1: just in a nice way.

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Speaker 6: I like, deah, yes they Okay, I don't know what's

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Speaker 6: going on there, but okay, for the record, not a

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Speaker 6: sorority system, did not go to college, only one semester

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Speaker 6: of community college.

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Speaker 2: But today our guest is Hank Newer, a writer. He

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Speaker 2: is the author of a variety of books about hazing,

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Speaker 2: including Hazing Destroying Young Lies.

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Speaker 4: He'll tell us about the.

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Speaker 2: Various forms that a hazing can take, what inspired him

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Speaker 2: to start tracking data of deaths and injuries, and a

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Speaker 2: handful of tragic incidents that have occurred as a result

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Speaker 2: of hazing.

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Speaker 1: We'll also get into the function of hazing and whether

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Speaker 1: there are alternatives that are physically and emotionally safer, how

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Speaker 1: it varies between fraternities and sororities, and general discussions about

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Speaker 1: group dynamics.

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Speaker 5: Also, I was not in a sorority.

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Speaker 1: I've said this before, because I was going to and

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Speaker 1: then they told me I couldn't talk to boys for

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Speaker 1: a couple of week.

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Speaker 4: I also would turn down that story.

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Speaker 5: I was like, uh no, what is this anyway?

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Speaker 4: At what school?

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Speaker 5: Kansas University?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Jacks, I want to throw into the mix really

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Speaker 1: quickly as well, because your voice reminded me of this.

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Speaker 1: Please go leave us a review on iTunes or wherever

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Speaker 1: you leave reviews.

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Speaker 5: We need to get more.

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Speaker 1: And there's like seven that are just about my voice

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Speaker 1: being horrible, so we need to get more to put

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Speaker 1: those down.

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Speaker 5: True.

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Speaker 1: People said, yeah, people said, she's trying to talk sexy,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like.

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Speaker 4: You're like, that's just my voice.

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Speaker 5: I would like talk more sexy.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, if this, I would not I'm not choosing this,

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Speaker 1: I promise.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is why I do not read reviews.

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Speaker 2: I cannot read reviews. They give me such horrible anxiety.

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Speaker 1: Don't let them scare you, lola. We just need people

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Speaker 1: to leave good ones, to knock the others down.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, throw us some five stars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, please tell us that you love our sexy voices.

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Speaker 4: Thank you are naturally organically sexy voices.

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Speaker 2: I feel like my voice is not normally sexy, but

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Speaker 2: today it is sexy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I feel like you always have a sexy voice.

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Speaker 4: Oh, thank you.

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Speaker 5: What are you talking about your fucking pop star?

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Speaker 2: Well that's different anyway. Okay, what's your cultist thing?

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Speaker 5: My gun?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I have a either really good one or really

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Speaker 1: bad one. I'm not sure yet. I guess I'll tell

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Speaker 1: by your facial expressions. Okay, So there's a man in

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Speaker 1: Canada he believes in Bigfoot. Him in a community of

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Speaker 1: people are very much into Bigfoot, they've seen it whatever,

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Speaker 1: kind of just a cultural thing where it's a real

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Speaker 1: thing to them.

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Speaker 5: Who knows whatever.

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Speaker 1: So he went on a fishing trip with his buddy

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Speaker 1: and he kind of went into a drug induced hallucination,

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Speaker 1: is what it's sounding like, where he thought his friend

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Speaker 1: was telling Bigfoot to kill him.

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Speaker 5: Oh no, so he murdered his friends?

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Speaker 4: Oh no, do we He was definitely on drugs.

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Speaker 1: They said he seemed impaired when they found him.

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Speaker 4: Damn, that's horrible.

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Speaker 2: I know, just some like, you know, a wholesome Bigfoot

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Speaker 2: hunting and then that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of scared me how quickly things can go bad.

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Speaker 5: But maybe that's just because drugs were involved.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, though, it sounds like Bigfoot was very

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Speaker 1: heavy on his mind.

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Speaker 2: Drugs, yes, well, yes, drugs don't typically make us murder people, though,

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Speaker 2: I think there's got to be something else going on

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Speaker 2: in order for that to be triggered.

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Speaker 1: But yes, a little scary. It kind of reminded me

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Speaker 1: of the girl who was obsessed with slender Man and

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Speaker 1: something they slender Man told them that they had to

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Speaker 1: kill the friend. Do you remember that?

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Speaker 2: Yes? I really want to do a deep dive at

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Speaker 2: some point into people who hear voices, because I feel

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Speaker 2: like it's really really stigmatized and misunderstood, and it's something

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Speaker 2: I'm super curious about because not everyone who hears voices

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Speaker 2: he hears voices who tell them to like do horrible things.

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Speaker 1: Right, I mean, yeah, I hear voices.

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Speaker 4: Do you literally hear voices?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: What do they say?

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Speaker 5: I mean nothing? Like, sometimes I'll just hear kill Lola.

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Speaker 1: I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 2: Well, who doesn't hear that voice?

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Speaker 4: So that's so interesting though?

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Speaker 1: Is okay? When I go to sleep at night, I

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Speaker 1: hear the most beautiful classical music you've ever heard in

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Speaker 1: your life that my brain is just hearing. It's not real.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Well, when we're in bed, we all hear

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Speaker 2: all kinds of things.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, like, and I'll hear somebody talking or but

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Speaker 1: but it's almost like I'm hearing a conversation at like

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Speaker 1: dinner and.

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Speaker 5: I'm not asleep yet.

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Speaker 1: Interesting, but it's just I can hear auditory things, And

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Speaker 1: then sometimes I will just hear my voice clear as day.

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Speaker 1: Like one time I woke up and I was in

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Speaker 1: a really dark place and my voice just said, like

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Speaker 1: I was talking to myself in my ear, you're not listening,

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Speaker 1: And I was like, WHOA, So yeah, I hear stuff

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Speaker 1: like that sometimes.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've had that when I have when I

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Speaker 2: have sleep paralysis, I don't well, I don't open my

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Speaker 2: eyes because I'm too scared.

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Speaker 4: So I don't know if I have visual hallucinations.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't, yeah, because I know I fucking know what

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Speaker 2: I could see.

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Speaker 4: But I do hear, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, during sleep paralysis, I hear voices that sound very

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Speaker 2: very real. I remember after my breakup with one of

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Speaker 2: my exes, I heard him come in. I heard him

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Speaker 2: whisper into my ear. I heard him in the bed

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Speaker 2: like and it was one hundred percent just like a

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Speaker 2: sleep paralysis hallucination. But yeah, that shit is very scary.

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Speaker 2: I've heard like demons whispering directly into my ear, and

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Speaker 2: I feel like I can feel, you know, oh listen.

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Speaker 4: The demons love me.

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Speaker 2: But that is something I've always found interesting, just total tangent.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, when we're going to sleep. It's very

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Speaker 2: natural to have auditory hallucinations. But right, I'm always very

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Speaker 2: curious about people who hear them more like in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the day.

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Speaker 1: You know, I can hear them in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the day as well. If I listen for them, I

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Speaker 1: can hear them.

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Speaker 2: Wow, We'll have to I have more deeply into that.

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Speaker 2: I'm very, very interested. Okay, thank you for sharing.

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Speaker 1: In spiritual circles, they say it's it's called something like.

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Speaker 4: Is it like you're psychically attuned to people or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You're psychically attuned through a sound instead of like seeing

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Speaker 1: the future. But I'm never hearing anything that's smart or

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Speaker 1: telling me about the future. It's just like, oh, you

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Speaker 1: went to RBS. Oh my god, I went there to

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Speaker 1: just like listening to people's conversations. That's bizarre anyway.

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Speaker 2: Wow, It's like when I do the Ouiji board and

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Speaker 2: it moves, but all it says is DFG.

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Speaker 4: One one one. Yeah me too, you know, yea yea yeah.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, wow, this is like something that this is nothing.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, what about you, what's your cultiest thing of

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Speaker 1: the week.

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Speaker 4: It's not that interesting.

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Speaker 2: I went to New York last week and I saw

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Speaker 2: a movie that I hadn't seen since I was a

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Speaker 2: kid in the theater which was so fun at this

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Speaker 2: little theater in Williamsburg called Nighthawk, which is awesome, little

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Speaker 2: independent theater.

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Speaker 4: It was Contact.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember this movie from the nineties to Tody Foster, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: or she talks to aliens And I have nothing interesting

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Speaker 2: to say about it, but it just felt so oh

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Speaker 2: thematically aligned with our show and like the dynamic between us.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know, she's a scientist and she doesn't have faith.

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Speaker 2: She's like, really everything is about evidence for her. And

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Speaker 2: then she goes on this journey and I don't want

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Speaker 2: to spoil this movie from nineteen ninety five or whatever,

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Speaker 2: but she goes on this journey you know, where they're

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Speaker 2: in contact with life from elsewhere and it forces her

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Speaker 2: to contend with the idea that she believes something that

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Speaker 2: she can't prove. It's really cool. Also, I'm just like,

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Speaker 2: I think I've decided this is my space phase. I had,

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Speaker 2: like an alien phase. But I really want to get

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Speaker 2: into space specifically because I feel like it's so fucking

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Speaker 2: fascinating and I don't know anything about it. And people

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Speaker 2: will say a black hole or.

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Speaker 4: A what do you call it.

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Speaker 5: I don't know. She's doing something with her hands, a.

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Speaker 2: Wormhole, you know, yeah, And I'm like, I like kind

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Speaker 2: of know what you mean, but I have no idea

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Speaker 2: what you mean, right, And they'll talk about time and

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Speaker 2: how we can see these new galaxies whatever, and it's

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Speaker 2: going back in time. I'm like, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: I want to know what you're talking about. This is fascinating.

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Speaker 2: This is so I've decided this is my new religion. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: space is my new religion. Carl Sagan is my prophet.

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Speaker 2: Great Also, contact is based on a book that he wrote.

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Speaker 2: Fucking love Carl Sagan. Anyway, it's just really good, you guys.

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Speaker 4: And then also in the.

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Speaker 2: Movie, like it becomes like international news, that global news

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Speaker 2: that they're talking aliens or whatever, and then there's this

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Speaker 2: whole faction of people that rise up that are like

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Speaker 2: the religious people, the Christian people, and they're like firmly

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Speaker 2: against it. They're protesting, they're like they don't want anything

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Speaker 2: to do with the science. And I just it just

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Speaker 2: felt like such a relevant thing for today because it's like,

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Speaker 2: what is this resistance to science from certain factions of Christians?

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Speaker 5: You know, do you know what freaked me out.

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Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, the Pope said, if alien

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Speaker 1: life reaches out to us, it doesn't mean that Jesus

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Speaker 1: wasn't real, And I was like, oh cool, they're preparing us.

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Speaker 1: That's crazy. He really said that, as in like or like,

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Speaker 1: they're preparing religious people to not experience mass hysteria if

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Speaker 1: aliens show up.

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Speaker 2: At this point, I think it would help humanity more

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Speaker 2: than anything if aliens showed up right now, as long

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Speaker 2: as they didn't kill us all.

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Speaker 1: I'm writing a funny song called abduct Me.

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Speaker 2: That's literally I've tweeted this multiple times. I could really

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Speaker 2: go for an alien abduction right now.

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Speaker 5: I really want it.

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Speaker 1: Why won't they show themselves to us?

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Speaker 5: Also? Like space?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I don't understand these two things. I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: throw it out there really quickly. Number one, I saw

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Speaker 1: something yesterday from like a scientific article that isn't on

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Speaker 1: the Daily Mail. You guys, so this is real saying that.

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Speaker 5: Saying that like space is pixelated? What what does that mean?

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Speaker 5: I don't know. And then everybody in the comments that

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Speaker 5: sounds really smart are like, oh my god, we are

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Speaker 5: in a simulation.

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Speaker 1: I was like what, and they were also talking about

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Speaker 1: how if you go into a black hole that means

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Speaker 1: nothing has ever happened. I don't anyway, What's what, Meg,

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Speaker 1: You're hurting my brain?

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Speaker 4: This is why I need a space guide. Can someone

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Speaker 4: please be like my space mentor I need.

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Speaker 5: I need information I don't understand.

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Speaker 1: But then I'm like, they can also just tell us

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Speaker 1: anything about space and we would just believe it, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because we have no choice if they're scientists, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you go into a black hole and then nothing's happened,

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Speaker 1: and we're like.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I guess that's what black holes are. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 4: black must be it.

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Speaker 1: But then like, definitely wormholes. I whatever, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: fraternities and sororities.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: I saw a tweet response.

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Speaker 2: I follow the like space topic on Twitter, so I'll

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Speaker 2: just see random space tweets in my feed, and there

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Speaker 2: was one about how you know, the new this new

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Speaker 2: telescope whatever has these super highest resolution images we've ever

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Speaker 2: been able to see of these far off places.

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Speaker 4: It's just like talking about how cool it was and

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Speaker 4: what an advance it was.

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Speaker 2: Someone in the comments wrote something along the lines of like,

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Speaker 2: people need to stop going to the edge of space

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Speaker 2: because it's forcing the universe to render further and further,

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Speaker 2: and it's going to break the system. Oh, this is

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Speaker 2: some like simulation theory.

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Speaker 3: Shit.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, right, it would be great if it would

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Speaker 1: break the system.

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Speaker 4: Something's gotta break.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, something's gotta go.

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Speaker 2: Whoa, Okay, I did not know that was a thing

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Speaker 2: that people thought that if that space is literally just

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Speaker 2: like the part of a video game where you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: uh huh, your character is just like stuck on the

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Speaker 2: edge of the cliff or whatever. Right, fascinating, fascinating anyway, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: fucking sororities.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, welcome Hank Newer to trust Me. Thanks for being here.

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Speaker 2: So we found you because there have been some stories

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Speaker 2: in the news lately, some really devastatingly sad stories about hazing,

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Speaker 2: and this happens to be a topic that you have

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Speaker 2: done a lot of work on.

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Speaker 4: So you're a journalist, you're an author.

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Speaker 2: You wrote a book called Hazing Destroying Young Lives, as

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Speaker 2: well as other books on hazing.

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Speaker 4: Right, you've written more than one five total.

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Wow, So, first of all, can you define hazing if

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Speaker 2: anyone doesn't know what it means? And tell us how

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Speaker 2: you came to want to study it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, hazing doesn't only occur in fraternities and sororities. So

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Speaker 3: essentially it's any group of veterans who quote unquote welcomes

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Speaker 3: a newcomer into the group and to do so puts

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Speaker 3: them under stress through certain rituals in order for them

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Speaker 3: to gain acceptance.

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Speaker 4: Right, did you go through hazing? Were you in a fraternity?

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Speaker 3: I was in a fraternity, but that isn't why I

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Speaker 3: got into it. As a graduate assistant at the University

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Speaker 3: of Nevada Reno in nineteen seventy five, I had gotten

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Speaker 3: to know some people in a group called the Sundowners

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Speaker 3: for two reasons. One had been a president of the

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Speaker 3: graduate studentiation and so therefore we got to know the undergraduates.

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Speaker 3: But I also played innermural sports and also played rugby

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Speaker 3: with a group called the Sundowners, which was mainly football

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Speaker 3: players and a kind of athletic fraternity. Well, while I

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Speaker 3: was there, I saw a pledge underneath a pool table,

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Speaker 3: and it turned out that they were feeding him shots

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Speaker 3: of everclear.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's alcohol. Me as a non drinker, that's alcohol, yeah,

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Speaker 2: oh wow?

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Speaker 3: Okay, and I don't drink hard alcohol. Either. It's the

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Speaker 3: only time in my life I ever saw anyone frothing

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Speaker 3: at the mouth and they were doing oh no, So

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Speaker 3: this was very close to dying. I did not think

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Speaker 3: about death at that time, but I thought the person

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Speaker 3: was extremely ill, and so I just asked the young

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Speaker 3: man to walk him around. They did, but maybe because

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Speaker 3: this was very public and they got some criticism for it,

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Speaker 3: they did the next one months later in October. This

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Speaker 3: would have been nineteen seventy on a Native American reservation

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Speaker 3: in Nevada, far from anywhere to get help, and one died.

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Speaker 3: One had no access to oxygen for a while, and

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Speaker 3: he later died in a automobile pedestrian accident four years later,

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Speaker 3: So in a way, it was really a double tragedy.

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Speaker 3: But at the time I contacted Human Behavior Magazine to

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Speaker 3: see if I could do something, because just out of curiosity,

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Speaker 3: I started making a database of hazing death. So I've

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Speaker 3: been doing this since seventy five, and I found about

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Speaker 3: twenty three I had a really tough editor named Marshall Lumston,

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Speaker 3: who had been with a Los Angeles editor for many years,

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Speaker 3: was well known, and he made me interview people who

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Speaker 3: had done books on groupthink and also human behavior dissertations,

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Speaker 3: and this was really important, I thought for my work.

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Speaker 3: When I was looking through scholarly journals, I had to

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Speaker 3: go to education and abnormal psychology.

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Speaker 6: That was it.

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Speaker 3: Really you couldn't find it anywhere else, and having been

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Speaker 3: in a fraternity, we didn't have anything that extreme. But

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Speaker 3: I thought, this is common. It may be bizarre, but

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Speaker 3: it's quote unquote a normal activity the way it's occurring,

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Speaker 3: So it's bizarre but normal and accepted by the people

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Speaker 3: that are in these groups. So that's where my research started.

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Speaker 3: And I think the database was important because you could

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Speaker 3: break down the hazings and back in seventy five seventy eight,

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Speaker 3: the number of deaths was either greatly inflated or greatly underestimated,

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Speaker 3: and so having an accurate account I thought was important.

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Speaker 4: So how common is it now like the past twenty years,

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Speaker 4: past ten years.

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Speaker 3: As a result of my research, until just last week,

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Speaker 3: I had found that we had a hazing death every

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Speaker 3: year from nineteen fifty nine until twenty and nineteen, and

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Speaker 3: then deaths in two thousand and twenty one. But now

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Speaker 3: we have a father who came forward in two weeks

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Speaker 3: and it goes to a criminal grand jury for the

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Speaker 3: death of a young woman in Virginia at Emery and Henry.

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Speaker 3: And if that is true, there'll be a death. Every year.

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Speaker 3: From nineteen fifty nine to twenty twenty one, there have

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Speaker 3: been no deaths, and I hope there won't be any

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Speaker 3: deaths in twenty twenty two. But given this consistent string,

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Speaker 3: of course, I'm worried about it.

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Speaker 1: In the fall, I think this is the article I

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Speaker 1: found you from. But that kid from Missoo, he's not dead,

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Speaker 1: but he's brain dead. Was that twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 4: Or oh that's twenty twenty one. Can one of you

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Speaker 4: talk about that story?

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Speaker 3: Essentially, at the University of Missouri, a fraternity member was

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Speaker 3: giving so much alcohol and just thrown to sleep it

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Speaker 3: off that he went unconscious and into a coma. And

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Speaker 3: that's a lot more common than you think. A lot

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Speaker 3: of young people are resilient and a few come back

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Speaker 3: from this, but others have died while in a coma.

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Speaker 3: The most recent would be Stone Folks who was at

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Speaker 3: Bowling Green State University twenty twenty one, and he just

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Speaker 3: lasted a couple of days. What's tragic about it? Often,

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Speaker 3: like a death at MIT of Scotty Krueger was that

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Speaker 3: the parents have to allow the doctors to pull the

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Speaker 3: plug to turn off life support. I thought about this

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Speaker 3: a lot, and that case, I did a play called

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Speaker 3: A Broken Pledge, which is a thirty minute play about

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Speaker 3: a grandfather whose grandson is buried that day, and the

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Speaker 3: death is based upon this. And so for me, it

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Speaker 3: was tragic when I heard from the emergency room doctor

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Speaker 3: that the parents saw their son moving and thought that

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Speaker 3: he was responding, But of course it wasn't. It was

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Speaker 3: this physical body, but he would be in a state

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Speaker 3: like Danny Santulli is right now.

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Speaker 2: So danny'sully nineteen year old student at the University of Missouri.

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Speaker 2: So he, in his hazing ritual drink an entire bottle

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Speaker 2: of alcohol, got alcohol poisoning. Obviously, like you were saying,

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Speaker 2: went to a coma. He suffered brain damage so bad

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Speaker 2: basically he can no longer walk, he can no longer talk,

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Speaker 2: and he can no longer see. He is for life,

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Speaker 2: permanently brain damaged. And you make a good point, Megan,

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Speaker 2: because it's like, yes, deaths happen. Obviously, the deaths are

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Speaker 2: more rare, and those are incredibly tragic, But there are

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Speaker 2: so many other additional kinds of consequences even if literal

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Speaker 2: death does not happen, be them physical or emotional. Can

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Speaker 2: you just like describe some of the general hazing rituals

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Speaker 2: that you've seen, like, what are some examples of them?

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Speaker 3: Okay? I would break it down into a couple of

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Speaker 3: different groups. Number one would be the most common that

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Speaker 3: we saw in fraternities and sororities after about nineteen thirty

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Speaker 3: going up into the nineteen eighties, and that would be physical,

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Speaker 3: and we would see people collapse from exercise. With physical

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Speaker 3: we could see paddling, and we saw people having damaged kidneys,

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Speaker 3: We saw Michael Davis in Missouri die from a beating.

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Speaker 3: Then the next one would be all the alcohol related

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Speaker 3: and those are going into the eighties right up to

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Speaker 3: the present. It's interesting to know that up to nineteen

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Speaker 3: thirty nine there wasn't a single alcohol related aizing death

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Speaker 3: to my knowledge anywhere. But the first one in a

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Speaker 3: fraternity was nineteen forty. That was also ironically at the

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Speaker 3: University of Missouri, and maybe maybe even significant because it

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Speaker 3: points to a culture. Oh yeah, and another thing that

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Speaker 3: was interesting about Missouri is two and a half to

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Speaker 3: three years ago, they hired an independent group to study

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Speaker 3: hazing and the conclusion was that Missouri was a very

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Speaker 3: dangerous place for fraternities and sororities, and it was almost

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Speaker 3: like prophecy of what was going to occur.

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Speaker 1: So oh wow.

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Speaker 3: And then the next part that I think is a

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Speaker 3: lot with sororities, it's psychological. Often it's demeaning. For example,

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Speaker 3: have a young woman who was at Cornell step on

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Speaker 3: a table and mark quote unquote or fat, or make

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Speaker 3: the person dress in smaller clothes where that person needs

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Speaker 3: to get by the end of pledging, and so this

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Speaker 3: leads to eating disorders and also a diminished sense of self.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so a lot of my girlfriends went to the

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Speaker 1: University of missoo. I had some sort of get together

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Speaker 1: for the summer where I had a lot of different

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Speaker 1: friends come stay with me, and all of them are

444
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,640
Speaker 1: in sororities. I wasn't but to hear the different kinds

445
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 1: of hazing from the different kinds of parts of the world.

446
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: Like I had a friend who went to an Ivy

447
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 1: League school and that was the one where they were

448
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 1: circling her fat a lot, and they would make her

449
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 1: sit on like a dryer so it would jiggle or

450
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,440
Speaker 1: it was so bizarre. And then the Mazoo girls. It

451
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: was a lot of drinking and stuff like that, and

452
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,360
Speaker 1: it was just so I remember thinking all of these

453
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 1: different places had such different ways of torturing them or

454
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 1: accepting them.

455
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. The death that was in twenty twenty, which is

456
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 3: just being called hazing now, was a swerving at high

457
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 3: speed on a gravel road near the Emery and Henry campus.

458
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 3: It wasn't during an actual hazing. The young women were

459
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 3: duplicating what they had gone through. They were bored during

460
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 3: the pandemic. It was the summer classes were not in session,

461
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 3: and this was a very common practice that fraternities and

462
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 3: sororities have been doing for a long time. What do

463
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 3: we hear. We hear that that's called a tradition. What

464
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 3: it is, right, it's a dangerous ritual that if you

465
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 3: do it often enough, something's going to go wrong. And

466
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 3: this isn't the first time there was a swerving death.

467
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: There was one at Plymouth State Universe. Both of those

468
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: were in local sorority, meaning there's no governance by a

469
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 3: national body. And this young woman won't be facing hazing,

470
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 3: but she's facing a grand jury on involuntary manslaughter. Oh

471
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 3: and the hazer was a star athlete high grades, meaning

472
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 3: that she was in a blue key society, actually president

473
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 3: of it. For me, these are tragedies that involved the

474
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 3: hazers as well, because they get swept up into it,

475
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 3: and I never forget that this year's victim would have

476
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 3: been next year's hazer.

477
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: Right to even know that and know how dangerous it

478
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: is and be like, I don't want to be Haes.

479
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: I remember in high school when I was a freshman,

480
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 1: all the seniors got the popular freshmen to like take

481
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,719
Speaker 1: them out and keep them up all night and torture

482
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 1: them and do whatever. And they didn't take me, of course,

483
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: because I was a nerd, and I was just like,

484
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: I want to go get Hayes, Like we just have

485
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: that in us to want to belong, you know.

486
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 3: I did turn down a high school fraternity as soon

487
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,719
Speaker 3: as I found out that there was battling. They were

488
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 3: basically inviting all the athletes to join this group. I

489
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 3: remember they had black sweaters and the Greek letters. I

490
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 3: remember a kid by the name of sale Benito was

491
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 3: in the grove. I actually remember his name. You got

492
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 3: to go through this for one day. We're gonna pat No,

493
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 3: I'm not going and moably mad when I get back.

494
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: So, yeah, you're stronger than me. I would have I

495
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: would have been like, please accept.

496
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 4: Me, Megan. Have you heard of any other kinds of hazing?

497
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: So I went to a community college for one single

498
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: semester just to appease my dad, even though, like I

499
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: had had my heart set on getting into Stanford when

500
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 2: I was in high school, and then like senior year,

501
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 2: I was like, I should do music.

502
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 4: What am I doing?

503
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: Why would I go like waiste four years while I'm

504
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 2: young and hot? Of course I didn't do any good,

505
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 2: but I didn't end on. I wasn't even really friends

506
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 2: with anyone at universities. I was friends with like La Dirtbags.

507
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: So do you have you heard of any other like

508
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: kinds of hazing rituals that people have gone through?

509
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 3: Well? I had to go through it for boy Scouts,

510
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 3: so that would be age eleven twelve. The actual hazing,

511
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 3: some of it was benign, but the scout master knew

512
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 3: about it, which would be the newcomers. The tenderfeet were

513
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 3: put in a tent far away from kind of a

514
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 3: log cabin cafeteria and you had to touch this building,

515
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 3: and the last ones had to clean the latrine. And

516
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 3: so we ended up doing that for three days till

517
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: we woke up and then slept in our clothes and

518
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 3: were the first ones for a few days to make

519
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 3: the others. But then they had another ritual, and this

520
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 3: one was scary to me. They would take brooms. These

521
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 3: are big guys. These are fourteen fifteen a couple of

522
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 3: them going to try to be eagle scouts and probably

523
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 3: twice my size. And you had to do a gauntlet

524
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 3: with them. Each of you had a broom standing up

525
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 3: atop a kind of log. And when I fell in,

526
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 3: I went under a rowboat and I had no air

527
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 3: at all. It was gulping from the top. It was

528
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: really frightening for about a minute. And I was, you know,

529
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 3: good shape and young, but I didn't. I don't swim,

530
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: and I'm a terrible swimmer. Now I had to get

531
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 3: myself out of that, and no one reacted to it.

532
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 3: No one was going to help. And that's another part

533
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: of this. So many are called unfortunate accidents, but they're not.

534
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 3: They're premeditated and they're risky, so they're really either in

535
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: a death a negligent homicide or simply a reckless endangerment.

536
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: I can't believe more people don't die. I can't believe

537
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: like half a fraternities just don't die every year. It's

538
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: kind of shocking to be honest.

539
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: Wait, I just googled something and I just learned a

540
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: crazy fact. Maybe you guys knew this. In nineteen ninety,

541
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 2: a Sigma new pledge at the University of Texas was

542
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 2: savagely beaten with a hammer and a paddle before being

543
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 2: set on fire during a brutal hazing ritual that ended

544
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 2: in massive lawsuit hang on though one of the main

545
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: offenders was mad Men's John, who withdrew from the school

546
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 2: after the incident. I returned home to Missouri. Also from Missouri,

547
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 2: What oh, Missouri's wild being with a.

548
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 4: Hammer and a paddle before being set on fire.

549
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I interviewed an African American at a Southern

550
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 3: school who had set a pledge's beard on fire. These

551
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 3: are crazy. Am has gotten a lot of embarrassment over that.

552
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 3: He gets questions. This has been in about the last

553
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 3: three years that this was exposed. But I had him

554
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 3: on my radar way back in the nineties when I

555
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: was doing this list of crazy kinds of things. So

556
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 3: after Danny Santoli, I've gone back and I'm trying to

557
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 3: find more paralysis. I now have three, and there's got

558
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 3: to be more, as you had said, close calls where

559
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 3: people didn't die. So the next book, I'm doing a

560
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 3: biography now with writer Kirk Vonneguant. After this one's done.

561
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 3: This year I'm doing hazing in American culture, and I've

562
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 3: already got a talk coming up in Spain that is

563
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 3: on hazing in the American world, West literature, art and history.

564
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 3: And I've done two in Poland on US hazing in prisons,

565
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: hazing of female guards by male guards, and the worst

566
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 3: one hazing of inmates mates, which is brutal, sexually demeaning,

567
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 3: people getting rectal damaged, some really awful things and not

568
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: really contained for the most part by prison authorities. A

569
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 3: lot of the people get promoted after they've been punished

570
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 3: or suspended. They come back and they get promoted. Then.

571
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: Wow, I did not know that.

572
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 3: That one was a paper from last year that I

573
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 3: did in Poland, and that was for a criminology school.

574
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: Wow. What about the military. I've read that it can

575
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: get pretty dangerous, but how does that go unchecked.

576
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 3: Because there's two different ways to look at it. One

577
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: is in the military academies, a naval academy and West

578
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 3: Point most prominently, and that goes back prior to the

579
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 3: Civil War. Then the second way would be in the

580
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: armed forces. And I've written about this a lot, and

581
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 3: I got interviewed by a government investigation which found a

582
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 3: lot of hazing, in particular in the high status groups

583
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 3: and seals in those kinds of organizations for two ways.

584
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: Either one is they feel they have to be broken

585
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 3: down in order to be built up. Or number two,

586
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 3: and this one is disturbing to me, they feel that

587
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 3: someone did not measure up or maybe dangerous to them

588
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: in a war situation, so they do what like a

589
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: code read right out of a Jack Nicholson movie, where

590
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 3: they beat the person savagely, and often the people are

591
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: intoxicated when they do this. These are big, strong guys

592
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 3: for me. Okay, if someone's not measuring up, give them

593
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 3: either a dishonorable discharge or a medical discharge and get

594
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 3: that person out, but certainly don't beat that person. And

595
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 3: then the other is several of the people who've been

596
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 3: beaten in this context were minority.

597
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 4: Particularly Asian, beaten by white people by.

598
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 3: Their fellow either Marines or army comrades.

599
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: Quote unquote, Oh okay, I guess would include everyone.

600
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 3: Right, And several of these have been overseas.

601
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: What I keep coming back to is that the obvious

602
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: ones are the ones where someone gets hurt or dies

603
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: if there's physical consequences, and the ones that I don't

604
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 2: know that we should be talking about more are the

605
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: ones where there are psychological consequences, where it is its

606
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: humiliation rituals, it's intentionally degrading people, locking them up in

607
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: a room.

608
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 4: That is like psychological torture. There are all kinds of

609
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 4: ways of doing that.

610
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: You just made me remember something. I remember when I

611
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: was a freshman. One of my guy friends they would

612
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: play really annoying music at full volume and make all

613
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: the guys sleep on the floor in a room for

614
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: like a month. So just sleeping on the floor with

615
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: music blasting, oh, our first month of oh, a nightmare.

616
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 3: What you're describing is cult like hazing, systematic manipulation. It's Coorci.

617
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: You've described it perfectly right.

618
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: We want to join the group, then you have to

619
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: pass a test. Of course, you're gonna want to pass

620
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: that test, and those tests can be very harmful, and

621
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: if you.

622
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: Don't do it, your pledge brothers or sisters are going

623
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: to have to take up the slack because oh.

624
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: Oh, that's such a good point. That's such a social

625
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: pressure is such a key component.

626
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 5: It feels like cults, these.

627
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: Groups get a narcissistic leader of this, because I do

628
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: know one girl who went to a sorority and the

629
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: class above her was just really nice and nothing really

630
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: that bad happened.

631
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 5: It was a pretty chill experience for her.

632
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: But I feel like if there was one quote unquote

633
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: bad Apple and that group who is like, we're gonna

634
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: haze the shit out of you girls, then everybody else

635
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: just kind of falls in line with it.

636
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 5: It always feels like it comes down.

637
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: To a few people who are really scary kind of

638
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: leading the charge.

639
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 3: And so when I've been writing about it the way

640
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 3: that I characterized it, no, it's not like a Branch

641
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: Davidian cult like leader coming in, but they're called, for example,

642
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 3: a pledge master or some similar title like that. It

643
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 3: can be the person is number one either naturally statistic.

644
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: We saw that case at Louisiana State University about three

645
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: years ago when Max Gruver had to go through quote

646
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 3: unquote Bible study, asked ridiculous questions by one person in particular,

647
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 3: and if he didn't answer, he had to drink enormous

648
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 3: amounts of liquor, and of course he died after that.

649
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: This is interesting because that person was sentenced to two

650
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 3: and a half years in prison, which may not sound

651
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 3: that much, but very few people go to prison at all,

652
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 3: and only a couple have had more than two and

653
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 3: a half if they're in a fraternity or sorority. Pair

654
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: this to hazing. Occupational hazing in Texas a group called

655
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 3: Republic where someone was tied to a crane and spun

656
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 3: and died a newcomer by two veterans. They got eighteen

657
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 3: years and five years. So a lot of what I'm

658
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 3: arguing is either out of fairness or out of law.

659
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: It should be similar penalties. We haven't seen anyone close

660
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 3: to eighteen years or five The most that I've seen

661
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: has been and I'm sure you've heard of this one,

662
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 3: the beating death of Robert Champion in a band at

663
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 3: Florida AMU where he had to go on a bus

664
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: and go from the beginning of the bus all the

665
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 3: way to the back, just like everybody who was on

666
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 3: that bus. While he was hit with sticks, fists, kicked,

667
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: and dead by the time he got to the end

668
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 3: of the bus.

669
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 5: No, I did not hear about that.

670
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: That nightmare for nothing.

671
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 3: And his mother got to meet her at a conference

672
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: where I was speaking for people, and we've invited We

673
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 3: have a place in Poland too, and we've invited them.

674
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: Hopefully they're going to come. She says, forget the word hazing.

675
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 3: This is homicide. This is murder. When there's something like this,

676
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 3: and I have to agree with her. Maybe the word

677
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: hazing isn't strong enough. People start thinking about wearing silly costumes.

678
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 3: One thing I think is interesting, go back to nineteen twelve.

679
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: It was considered innocent to push pennies across the cafeteria

680
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,439
Speaker 3: floor or a peanut at that time. Ay, when someone

681
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 3: was doing that in Ohio, people jumped on the person's

682
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 3: back and broke his spine. Who none of the hazing

683
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 3: should be going on. You talked about a sayis in

684
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 3: effect leading That happens over and over again. And there's

685
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 3: something about the hazing that makes someone who wouldn't be

686
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 3: committing a crime ordinarily rise to become this leader.

687
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: I mean, that's interesting because I think about the Stanford

688
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: prison experiment, and I also think about how we've sort

689
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: of always thought about that wrong. So I'm going to

690
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 2: give some context if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about.

691
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: In the seventies, there was a social psychology experiment in

692
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: which they put a bunch of boys, a bunch of students.

693
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: They like created a prison, Like they built a little

694
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: simulated prison, and they sent half the boys to be

695
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 2: guards and half the boys to be inmates. What ended

696
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 2: up happening was that the guards were essentially torturing and

697
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: beating the inmates, even though they were all psychologically normal.

698
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: They all fit similar average profiles. And one of the

699
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 2: takeaways that people usually say is like, oh, we like

700
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: our behavior changes depending on the role, Like we enter

701
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: a role that we can like change, it can change

702
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: our character. But I believe it's come out since then

703
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 2: that some of the people who were members of that

704
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: study were like, no, it wasn't about the role.

705
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 4: It was about he was watching us, and there was

706
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 4: like an.

707
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 2: Implicit expectation that we were supposed to like perform for him,

708
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,959
Speaker 2: like he wanted to see some results, and we felt

709
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: sort of internalized pressure because we knew we were being

710
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 2: observed to fit that it wasn't just the role itself,

711
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: it was this additional outside force they sort of like

712
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: wanted there to be resolved. I might be summarizing that poorly,

713
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: so feel free to correct me in the DMS if

714
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: I did.

715
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 3: And it's implied coercion exactly.

716
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 2: It's not just this like neutral like, oh, anyone who

717
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 2: steps into the role of security guard is going to

718
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 2: beat the shit out of people.

719
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 4: It's like, no, the.

720
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 2: Culture that is created by the people at the top

721
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 2: is the thing that you know can be bos done exactly,

722
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 2: thank you. So it makes me wonder about sororities and

723
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: fraternities and like even if the person who is the

724
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 2: Hayes Master or whatever isn't sadistic, if there is an

725
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 2: overall culture and overall expectation that they're going to come

726
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: up with something that's like really gnarly, or like when

727
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 2: you think of some of.

728
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 3: The types of hazing, or a death that was at

729
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: Wisconsin Superior duplicated at the University of Maryland making someone

730
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 3: go into a steam room with all the clothes on.

731
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 3: So Rick Sarah died in in one, and another one

732
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 3: died at Maryland, and then another one died doing the

733
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 3: same thing, getting a heart attack at Ithaca College. So

734
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 3: to make someone go into a steam room at all

735
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 3: set up high, and then to wear heavy clothing on

736
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 3: top of it is obviously dangerous and in three cases

737
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 3: at least deadly well.

738
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: And some of these are so like freak accidents you

739
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: wouldn't think that could even kill someone, like I'm reading

740
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: right now. There was one in two thousand and three,

741
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 2: which I'm sure you know about. A kid was forced

742
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: to drink numerous pictures of water, often to the point

743
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: of vomiting, and he ended up drinking so much water

744
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 2: that his brain swelled and he died from water intoxication.

745
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what Walter Dean Jennings and I did the

746
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: documentary movie. I went out to Plattsburgh on that. But

747
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 3: that one, anyone who's taken chemistry knows that that's very dangerous.

748
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 3: And it's not the only water torture death. There was

749
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 3: a death of Matt Carrington at Chico State in California.

750
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 3: The same thing. If you drink so much water everything

751
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 3: with your salts, your physical self is changed, and with

752
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 3: had two deaths.

753
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely crazy. I understand the reasoning behind. Like, Okay,

754
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: if we want to really bond people together and make

755
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 2: them feel like they're a part of something and create

756
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: trust between them, like if they overcome a challenging experience

757
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 2: within this group, they will be bonded to the group.

758
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 4: I see that logic. That makes sense to me.

759
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: So do you think hazing should just not exist at

760
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: all or is there a version of it that can

761
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: be more constructive and less dangerous?

762
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 3: To go back to studies show it and there aren't

763
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: a lot of them liking for a group. Loyalties to

764
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 3: the group is increased. The harder your initiation, the more

765
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 3: difficult your entry point, the more you're going to appreciate it. Okay,

766
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 3: that's number one, But number two, it doesn't have to

767
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 3: be hazing to get into the group. Say it's a

768
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 3: very physical group of guys like the ones I described

769
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 3: at the beginning nineteen seventy five, for John Davies, these

770
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 3: are football players. You can have a legitimate, watched, over

771
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 3: supervised outdoor experience for example, you know, very challenging with

772
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 3: an intellectual group. It might be something else, but supervised

773
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 3: in some way there is a small chance something could

774
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 3: go wrong, of course with any outdoor, but with hazing,

775
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 3: not only is something going to go wrong, it goes

776
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 3: wrong all the time, and we shouldn't be surprised anymore

777
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 3: that it does. I think the last time I checked,

778
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 3: I had a list of one hundred activities that could

779
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 3: be done in place, and it can be done by

780
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 3: the newcomers and the old comers together. I've gone to

781
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 3: observe this in Oxford, Ohio at a couple of fraternities.

782
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 3: So I participated in ropes courses, some physical events when

783
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 3: I was younger, and it was a lot of fun,

784
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: and they bonded and there was no hazing.

785
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: They should go para shouting yeah I'm sorry, which I do.

786
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 4: Terrifying.

787
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 2: No, that's actually a great idea, mag And it's like,

788
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 2: of course you can have accents with something like that,

789
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 2: but a physical activity that isn't about like specifically trying

790
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 2: to put one person through pain, but just like this.

791
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 1: Death together, if you know what I just realized too.

792
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: I went to a Tony Robbins conference, which Lola makes

793
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: fun of me for often, which I deserve, and he

794
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: had us walk across fire and some people got hurt.

795
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: One woman had to go to the hospital. I'm wondering

796
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: if that's kind of his version of making us get

797
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 1: sucked into more Tony Robbins, to me.

798
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 3: It sounds amazing.

799
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: Actually, Yeah, So putting someone through any kind of like

800
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: deeply uncomfortable, painful, dangerous experience, Yes, the more difficult thing

801
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: you experienced with someone, the more you feel bonded to them.

802
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 2: But also that can kind of just be trauma bonding

803
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 2: if what they're experiencing is like emotionally traumatic in some

804
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: way or like physically extremely.

805
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: Well, that's what they do on The Bachelor. They just

806
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: put these two people on dates that are like their

807
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: worst fear, and then they're in love.

808
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: I just was thinking about The Bachelor, but in a

809
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: different context because I was thinking about how like the

810
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: group dates I feel like can actually be really great

811
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 2: for bonding the women like to each other or.

812
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: Men, right, because they're so embarrassing and traumatizing.

813
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: They're like it's an obstacle course and it's like a

814
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 2: little bit embarrassing, but it's fine. That's a version of

815
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 2: it that like sounds like what you're saying, Hank, but

816
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 2: you're right, Oh my gosh. The bachelor in general is like,

817
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: for sure, those people will get trauma bond because.

818
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: You're you're scared of flying in planes. You guys are

819
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: gonna go fly your own plane, and then the girls like, ah, well,

820
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: but they're.

821
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: Also isolated from everything and everyone they know and aren't

822
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 2: allowed to have any contact with anyone elseide whatsoever, and

823
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 2: they are given alcohol all day long and whatever. There

824
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: are a million reasons why the bachelor seems traumatizing. But

825
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,959
Speaker 2: my point is, yes, it can be bonding, but also

826
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: it can just be trauma bonding, which is not a

827
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: good thing.

828
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,919
Speaker 4: We don't want to trauma bond.

829
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 3: You've said exactly why female and male pledges bond together.

830
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 3: And they also have this shared experience that they talk

831
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 3: about in the residence all at night. Sometimes their laughter.

832
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 3: There's reverse hazing. We've seen several deaths where the pledges

833
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 3: take out the members, and that's encouraged.

834
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: By the members that.

835
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 3: They show spunk. The second for the studies, though, think

836
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 3: about what you said and then look at the studies

837
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 3: that were done by Bruno Bedleheim, who was a prisoner

838
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 3: of the Nazis in the forties and talked about how

839
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 3: they bonded with certain guards. And that goes back to

840
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 3: what you were saying with the Stanford experience. We wouldn't

841
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 3: think that's true. You think you'd hate them at all costs.

842
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 3: But some prisoners bonded with their guards, getting a little

843
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 3: extra slice of bread or even the punishment for some

844
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 3: reason they were in how to put it in the

845
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 3: sphere of.

846
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: The guards, right, that's something I really want to learn

847
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 2: more about. I think it's not even the correct term anymore,

848
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 2: but we think of as Stockholm syndrome, and that is

849
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: similar to what happens in cults in that like when

850
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 2: you are put through so much emotional suffering, the person

851
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: who then will alleviate it for a little while is

852
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: the person that you become extremely bonded to that person.

853
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 4: That makes sense to me. If it's like a guard

854
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 4: gives you one thing, You're like, I love you.

855
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 3: And you're supposed to get that from your big brother.

856
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 3: But talk about cult like that's a family situation, you know,

857
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 3: and even family words, and there's a couple of dangers

858
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 3: with it. Number One, fraternities are so big and sororities

859
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 3: they break down into smaller groups called families. They are

860
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 3: bonded by a single choice of liquor a Chico State

861
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: a death in two thousand and one right after I

862
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 3: was speaking there, so it was traumatic to me. That

863
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: was Brandy and other groups it's Quervo or it's Captain Morgan.

864
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 3: It seems crazy that people would bond around alcohol, but

865
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: that means they're already on their way to being an

866
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 3: addictive group. And an addictive group with hazing is extremely

867
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 3: dangerous and the inhibitions are gone, and the likelihood of

868
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 3: something happened when everyone's been drinking are quite high.

869
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 2: Megan, you're nodding when he said that. Do you connect

870
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: with something in particular?

871
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of things. The last thing it just

872
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 1: made me think of, though, was a girl that was

873
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: in my freshman dorm who was in a sorority. She

874
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: didn't live there yet because she would the next year,

875
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: and she got really, really drunk and killed herself and WHOA.

876
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: I really don't know if this even applies to what

877
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: we're talking about.

878
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 3: I don't know, No, it does that we've had the

879
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 3: claims from parents. I can't give you the exact amount,

880
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 3: but I would guess it's five or six. Richard Brown

881
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 3: at Penn State Altuna being one of the latest where

882
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 3: they went through the hazing and then committed suicide later

883
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 3: and they also haze. So the parents are pointing it.

884
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 3: One in particular after a death in Texas. You can

885
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 3: look this one up four years the hazer committed suicide

886
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 3: after the death. View was so traumatized. Yeah, that's certainly

887
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 3: what I know of their but suicides, yes, we're looking

888
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 3: at about five or six.

889
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 2: It's just when it's like systematized and put into a

890
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 2: place where a kid feels like they have to participate

891
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 2: in order to be accepted, that's when it's the product.

892
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 3: That called it's called enforced dependency, and it's a psychological coercion.

893
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 3: And that's really wrong. The idea of being locked in

894
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 3: a room and played music. Who's going to let you

895
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 3: out at some particular point? Again, right, you become dependent?

896
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 3: Why do you become dependent? Because the group is all

897
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 3: about status and power and they want to keep the

898
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 3: status ten years forward, fifteen years forward. And that's why

899
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 3: even if an undergraduate chapter tries to change things, they

900
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 3: get blowed back.

901
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: From the alumni as someone who has never participated in

902
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 2: really college culture. Like so there are people like sort

903
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: of at the top of the sorority and fraternity who

904
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 2: like a national chapter.

905
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 4: Like, how does the hierarchy work?

906
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 3: There's two kinds. There are local chapters which are not

907
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 3: located anywhere else at a school. This would include Emery

908
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 3: and Henry, which we just talked about. And then there

909
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 3: are national organizations, big umbrella groups Fi, Gamma, Delta, Signify, Epsilon, Delta, Kappa, Epsilon,

910
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 3: where they have a board and they have executive vice

911
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 3: presidents who are over and then they have staffs, they

912
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 3: have educators, and they have field reps that are supposed

913
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 3: to try to be overseeing the groups and reporting the

914
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 3: bad groups. They can't be everywhere. The undergraduates are as

915
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 3: deceitful to them as they are to the college presidents,

916
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 3: to their Greek affairs people, to their parents. Right, and

917
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 3: it's very difficult to catch hazing. Are you going to

918
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 3: watch them twenty four hours? The one I reported was

919
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 3: in December. It was at Northeastern College and you can

920
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 3: find this on the Globe and mail because I gave

921
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: them the video that was locking a bunch of pledges

922
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 3: in a U haul van and driving them around. We've

923
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 3: had deaths at the University of Virginia and other schools

924
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 3: where accidents occurred, and often they're drinking at this particular time.

925
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 3: I guess in this case the driver wasn't drinking, but

926
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,879
Speaker 3: no charges at all. And these guys talk their way

927
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 3: out of it. After I did complain, they did get punished.

928
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 3: The group is a good one actually for the most part.

929
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 3: Fy Delta Theta. I think they're good in that they've

930
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 3: really pushed dry houses, and if you have dry houses,

931
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 3: a big part of the danger ends. But it doesn't

932
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 3: mean they haven't had death. They had a death at

933
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 3: Auburn of Chad Saucier, and that was leading me something

934
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 3: else I hope we would talk about, and that is

935
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 3: with Danny Santolli this death at Auburn. One of the

936
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 3: trends since nineteen ninety five is bottle exchanges and the

937
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 3: amount of liquor is a handle and talk I gave

938
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 3: last week at Ohio State is too much to handle.

939
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 3: You can't drink forty shots plus with Santoli, they took

940
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 3: a hose and they poured beer down him. The exchange

941
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 3: is looked at as a gift to the pledge. How

942
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 3: can you turn down a gift? But when it comes

943
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 3: to be forty shots or more often a very potent alcohol.

944
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 3: A paralysis isn't unexpected. And so another part with cult

945
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 3: like hazing is in the interest of camaraderie. Loyalty to

946
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 3: the group is important, and people turn a blind eye.

947
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 3: If you had been present and people are pouring forty

948
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 3: ounces of liquor down, your move probably would be what

949
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,280
Speaker 3: mine was years ago, with the pledge under a pool table.

950
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 3: You intercede. But let's say I was a member of

951
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 3: those sundowners. From my experience interviewing so many hasters, I

952
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 3: would say, she's I hope somebody steps in here. Maybe

953
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 3: it can't be so bad. I know these are good guys,

954
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 3: and they would step in. Then no one does, and

955
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 3: then a tragedy occurrence, and there's all this backbiting and

956
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 3: anger and blame.

957
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: Right well, I mean again, it's like that social pressure.

958
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: You don't want to be the one to sort of

959
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 2: betray your sister. I have a short film, I made

960
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 2: a little horror short and they say, never betray your

961
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: sister's trust, and I feel like, you know, that is

962
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: sort of the idea.

963
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 4: It's like, you don't want to be a snitch.

964
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 2: And also it's just like in general, we have this

965
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: tendency to assume that someone else is going to do something,

966
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 2: and it's hard to be the first one to act.

967
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 3: And the lacrosse death at Western Illinois University, I found

968
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 3: this out by reading the newspaper. A judge assigned the

969
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 3: young men and the lacrosse death. There were several kinds

970
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 3: of hazing, but the worst was there was a bottle

971
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 3: of alcohol at every station and all the rookies had

972
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 3: to drink it, and there weren't so many rookies, so

973
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 3: the judge had me accompany them to go through the

974
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 3: initiation within limits. I didn't have to do the alcohol.

975
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 3: To interview these guys, and that was in a book

976
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 3: called High School Hazing, which also had an athletic chapter.

977
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 3: Several of the guys just kept saying the same thing.

978
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 3: I really was going to act. I really wanted to act,

979
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 3: but I was hoping the captain would do it well.

980
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 3: The captain was the guy who did the worst and

981
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 3: the most pushing, and he wouldn't talk to me. I

982
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,479
Speaker 3: thought he should go to jail, that the judge should

983
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 3: put him in because everyone else talked, and I put

984
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 3: his name in the book. One person kept everybody from acting.

985
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 3: One person and that's the same thing in military. Are

986
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 3: you going to be the one who steps in with

987
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 3: a quote unquote bad soldier and step in because then

988
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 3: you're a pariah. Also, yeah, I.

989
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: Mean the military ups it up a notch, right, Yeah.

990
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 4: And the police.

991
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 5: Yeah.

992
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: I just read an article actually that a guy in

993
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and the police for is they did like

994
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: an exercise on apparently getting beaten. But he was beaten

995
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: to death. And it didn't say he was particularly hazed.

996
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 1: But I was like, well, he seems young, and that

997
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: seems like maybe it was something like that.

998
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 3: I didn't hear about it. It was yesterday and yesterday

999
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 3: by Los Angeles Police. Los Angeles police as a cult

1000
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 3: like group, which is an area nation group actually a

1001
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 3: couple of area nation groups and firemen from even as

1002
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 3: much as police firemen have hazing all the time, and

1003
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 3: again its status power plus the idea that you want

1004
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 3: someone with you in a fire that you can trust.

1005
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 2: Right. Do you find there is more dangerous hazing in

1006
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 2: fraternities versus sororities? Is there a gender divide or is

1007
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 2: it kind of similar?

1008
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 3: The number of deaths so we've had from all sources

1009
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 3: two hundred and eighty four overwhelming number of deaths have

1010
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 3: been in local and national fraternities. Sorority we're about ten

1011
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 3: to twelve point so the fraternity hazing is more violent,

1012
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 3: more likely to include large amounts of alcohol. But things

1013
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 3: are changing as women come into the workplace, as they

1014
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 3: are looking for status. So we've had women beaten, we've

1015
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 3: had alcohol related incidents. But for the most part of

1016
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 3: psychological it's demeaning and it's all about weight appearance. You

1017
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 3: can't come into the house unless you use the back door.

1018
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 3: We're going to have you bring us our breakfast, our

1019
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 3: wake up call. Maybe you'll do your our homework for

1020
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 3: us if we're sisters. But not the craziest kind of

1021
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 3: stuff that the fraternities have. But here's the other part.

1022
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 3: When sorority women at Utah State were given a pledge

1023
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 3: and his reward at Utah State for being the best

1024
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 3: was to stay in a sorority house overnight. They gave

1025
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 3: him enough alcohol to kill him, a young man by

1026
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 3: the name of Starks at Utah State. And then the

1027
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 3: second part is we're seeing other instances where males and

1028
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 3: females are conducting hazing together.

1029
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're trying to oppress each other to impress

1030
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: each other.

1031
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did I say to press each other

1032
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:51,399
Speaker 4: oppress each other?

1033
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 5: Cool?

1034
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 1: I mean all of that, you know, Yeah, you're trying

1035
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: to impress each other, so it gets to.

1036
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: Be an anti yeah, totally. Well, Hank, do you have

1037
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 2: any hope for this getting better? I mean, how do

1038
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 2: you see this playing out going forward?

1039
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 3: That was a question I threw out to a mixed

1040
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 3: racial audience, mostly with fraternities with some athletics at Ohio. Statement,

1041
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 3: So I said, at age seventy six, now, and I've

1042
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 3: been doing it since nineteen seventy five, what are the

1043
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 3: odds that this can be ended in my lifetime? And

1044
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 3: I said, my grandfather lived to be ninety two, So

1045
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 3: let's go there. The whole audience said they hoped it

1046
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 3: would be eradicated, but they thought there would be some

1047
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 3: hazing deaths. Just going all the way for another let's say,

1048
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 3: sixteen years. I would like to see pledging completely eliminated.

1049
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 3: Don't call it associate member or anything else. People coming

1050
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 3: in and have substitutions for hazing. It can be done.

1051
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 3: When I was at Franklin College for eighteen years, I

1052
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 3: was in charge of an honor society we had a

1053
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 3: lot of camaraderie, We had a lot of fun doing

1054
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 3: events together. Not a single hazing ever occurred. Yes, it

1055
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 3: was male and female, which is a different dynamic, but

1056
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,280
Speaker 3: it can be done where you can have successful groups

1057
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 3: that are very loyal, having a heck of a good

1058
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 3: time and no one dies. And going back to seventy five,

1059
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,879
Speaker 3: my first reaction was everyone should have a good time.

1060
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 3: No one should die for a good time.

1061
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, amen to that, agreed.

1062
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 2: Well, where can people find your books? And are you

1063
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 2: on social media?

1064
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,959
Speaker 3: Yes, it's on Twitter, it's at hazing, so pretty easy

1065
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 3: to remember. Oh wow, if you go to hazing you'll

1066
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 3: find it there LinkedIn. I have my own website, so

1067
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 3: if you just put hazing and hank, it'll come up

1068
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 3: with a lot more than you can believe. And that's

1069
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:45,919
Speaker 3: where you'll find out about the two hundred and eighty

1070
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 3: four deaths, the forty plus deaths and the Philippines, the

1071
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 3: deaths in England and other places. Because I'm trying to

1072
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,879
Speaker 3: do hazing in American culture, hazing worldwide. And the next

1073
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: one after that is sexual hazing incidents at the high

1074
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 3: school level, not seeing them that much in college. There's

1075
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 3: been a handful, but high school completely out of control,

1076
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 3: and that means that they're coming into college fraternities with

1077
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 3: a mindset maybe not to sexually hate, but that anything

1078
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 3: goes interesting.

1079
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for talking to us. You're

1080
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 2: doing great work, so thank you for highlighting this.

1081
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 3: Miss Thank you both great.

1082
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: Thank you you too.

1083
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 4: Alrighty, thanks so much to Hang for coming on. Megan. Yes,

1084
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 4: can you tell me what's the closest you've ever come

1085
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 4: to being in a sorority?

1086
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so I told you about how my freshman year

1087
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: at KU, I was thinking about being in a sorority

1088
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: because all of my friends were, and then they were

1089
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 1: like the no boys stuff, lots of rules, and I

1090
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: was like, cool, I'm not going to do that, so

1091
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: I didn't. And then it came to my attention that

1092
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: it really was hard to go to fun parties and

1093
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 1: stuff like that if you weren't and I was kind

1094
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: of a dork my freshman year of college. I know

1095
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: that's hard for people to believe, but I remember my

1096
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: roommate and I, who is my best friend from high well,

1097
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 1: we like heard about a fraternity party, so we went

1098
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 1: to it and we knocked on the front door and

1099
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: we were like, Hi.

1100
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:06,399
Speaker 5: Are we here for the party?

1101
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: And they're like, there isn't a party, and then all

1102
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 1: these people, these.

1103
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 5: Girls friend by like naked, screaming like we love this party.

1104
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 5: I was like, we have to join a sorority. We're

1105
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 5: missing out on life. And my roommate's like, oh my god,

1106
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 5: what do we do?

1107
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 1: We were super into to like Bridget Jones, like very

1108
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: middle age novel. It was very strange. We're very weird girls.

1109
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: So I was like, Monica, her name is Monica. We

1110
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: have to get back in the game. We gotta we

1111
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: gotta figure out how to be college students. And so

1112
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 1: then I found the sorority that was like a door

1113
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: key sorority, so they didn't have enough people in it.

1114
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: They needed a few more members, and I was like,

1115
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: we're going to go join that sorority, and we almost did,

1116
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:53,320
Speaker 1: but then we went to one of their meetings and

1117
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: it was literally the most depressing, odd thing I've ever

1118
00:56:57,760 --> 00:56:59,400
Speaker 1: been to in my life. And I was like, you

1119
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 1: know what, I'm just gonna be a loser on my

1120
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: own instead of a loser with other people.

1121
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 4: Why was it odd and depressing?

1122
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:07,479
Speaker 5: Now looking back, I would be like, oh my gosh,

1123
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:08,240
Speaker 5: these are my people.

1124
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: But it was like literally just like Central casting for

1125
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 1: Nerds all yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1126
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 4: Sweet and sad.

1127
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was kind of sad.

1128
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: I feel like I okay, yes, Fatal Collective, the yeah

1129
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 2: all women Horror Collective I co found it, which is

1130
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 2: now sort of pretty inactive.

1131
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 4: Sadly.

1132
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 5: Oh uh.

1133
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 4: You know, group dynamics are hard, man, They're fucking hard.

1134
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 2: But I know, I feel like that's the closest I've

1135
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 2: ever come to being in anything like a sorority, because

1136
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 2: all in high school and college years, you know, forgetting

1137
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 2: my one semester or whatever, I hung out with boys

1138
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 2: and I thought that was cool, you know, right right,

1139
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,479
Speaker 2: Its fucking dumb, but that's what I thought was cool.

1140
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 1: Right.

1141
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 2: So then, like in my mid twenties, I was like, wait,

1142
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 2: I need women in my life. I need women in

1143
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 2: my life. And so I've like had all of these

1144
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 2: periods where I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna have a clothing swap. Okay,

1145
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have a girl's night where we share this

1146
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: thing together. Like it's been so important to me to have,

1147
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 2: you know, feminine connection in my life. I really understand

1148
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 2: the appeal of sororities, especially because I had no sisters.

1149
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 2: I had three brothers, which probably why I felt more

1150
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 2: comfortable with boys, or at least thought I did.

1151
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 4: I want womanly connection.

1152
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't really have a group chat anymore of

1153
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 2: like my gals, and it's like there's like a real

1154
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 2: void in my life.

1155
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 4: So if anyone wants to start.

1156
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 2: A a safe, hazing, free grown up sorority, listen, I'm

1157
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 2: your gal. Our central tenants can be self awareness and

1158
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 2: interrogation of one's own space.

1159
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, whatever I was gonna say.

1160
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: I did live in the house when I lived in

1161
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: LA with a bunch of girls, and it was so fun.

1162
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: That was also heaven.

1163
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 4: I know, I want a sister. I've been watching Better Things,

1164
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 4: the Pamela ad Lan Show. Have you seen it? No,

1165
00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 4: it's so good? Is She's so good?

1166
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 2: Yes, sadly co created by Luis Ka, but then she

1167
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 2: looted him off the show after everything came out, and

1168
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 2: it's about a single mom and her three.

1169
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 4: Daughters and also her mother. I love that, and I

1170
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 4: love Gilmore. I just love show. I love feeling that

1171
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 4: like woman connection thing.

1172
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: So anyway, absolutely, I live with all boys now, but

1173
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: they're kind of girly, so it's fun.

1174
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean one of them makes perfumes.

1175
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 2: You know.

1176
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: So well, thank you guys so much for spending another

1177
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: episode with us. Remember to follow your gut, watch.

1178
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 5: Out for red flags, and ever ever trust me guys. Bye,