Speaker 1: I've got a very special episode to share with you today,
Speaker 1: and it's part of a series we're releasing called Something
Speaker 1: to Normalize. One of the reasons I've always loved the
Speaker 1: Wolf Parable is because it normalizes being human and having
Speaker 1: difficult emotions. These podcast episodes feature my partner Ginny, talking
Speaker 1: with her friend and previous guest of the show, Brandy Lust.
Speaker 1: In these unguarded conversations, they'll be sharing their lives and
Speaker 1: perspectives as women, alongside insights from experts, researchers, and writers
Speaker 1: on topics that are hard to talk about. We tend
Speaker 1: to keep these things to ourselves, though, and when we do,
Speaker 1: it can breed a sense of being the only one,
Speaker 1: feelings of shame, or evidence we're somehow doing life wrong.
Speaker 1: Brandy and Ginny hope that by giving voice to experiences, feelings,
Speaker 1: and thoughts we often keep to ourselves, we can create
Speaker 1: a community with less shame and a deeper sense of belonging.
Speaker 1: I am so happy to share their voices with you.
Speaker 1: I think you'll find these episodes a wonderfully nourishing and
Speaker 1: supportive addition to the regularly scheduled one you feed podcast
Speaker 1: episodes you are used to hearing here and now I'm
Speaker 1: proud to present to you something to normalize.
Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome back, Welcome everybody, Hey, Brandy.
Speaker 3: Hi Jenny, Welcome everyone. Welcome to something to normalize.
Speaker 2: Welcome to something to normalize. Right, And so this today
Speaker 2: is part two of a two part series. If you
Speaker 2: have not listened to part one, pause here, head back
Speaker 2: to the previous episode and take a listen, because these
Speaker 2: two episodes definitely go in combination with one another. But
Speaker 2: today we are going to continue the conversation around understanding
Speaker 2: how abuse of power happens and learning to trust and
Speaker 2: care for ourselves in the wake of being a victim
Speaker 2: of the abuse. Right, So, what we're normalizing is talking
Speaker 2: about the process of grooming and how systems protect abusers
Speaker 2: so that we can be more informed about prevention and
Speaker 2: also care for ourselves when it happens. So I think
Speaker 2: it's an important thing to talk about. But before we
Speaker 2: go any further, just a trigger warning, right.
Speaker 4: So, if this is a topic that you have some.
Speaker 2: History with in a way that feels unsafe or vulnerable
Speaker 2: and not territory you want to tread back through at
Speaker 2: the moment, maybe skip this episode, right, Maybe come back
Speaker 2: next time with us. All right, Brandy, let's just dive in,
Speaker 2: shall we sounds great? Okay, So maybe first let's just
Speaker 2: reorient to who we are. So just a remind listeners.
Speaker 2: So I'm Jinny Gay and I'm a certified mindfulness and
Speaker 2: meditation teacher who helps people become more aware of and
Speaker 2: work skillfully with their thoughts, their emotions, their experiences so
Speaker 2: they feel less stressed and struggle in more freedom, joy
Speaker 2: and ease.
Speaker 3: And I'm Brandy lest and I'm a speaker and facilitator
Speaker 3: who works with organizations to create safe spaces where folks
Speaker 3: can share their truth and organizations can be well wonderful.
Speaker 2: All right, So Brandy, let's just start with what is
Speaker 2: abuse of power?
Speaker 3: I'm going to use a definition that I read in
Speaker 3: the forward of a book that I'll be relying pretty
Speaker 3: heavily on in this conversation and my situation. I did
Speaker 3: a lot of research on grooming and predatory behaviors and
Speaker 3: how these things happen with individuals and organizations, and the
Speaker 3: most helpful resource that I found was by Wade Mullin,
Speaker 3: and it's a book called Something's Not Right. And so
Speaker 3: this definition is from the forward of that book. And
Speaker 3: it is from Diane Lamberg, who is a psychologist, and
Speaker 3: she says, when someone treats you as an op they
Speaker 3: are willing to harm for their own benefit, abuse has
Speaker 3: occurred in that person has become an abuser. So any
Speaker 3: time that someone is willing to use another person in
Speaker 3: a way that creates harm, that's when abuse has happened.
Speaker 2: Can we pause for a second. I just want to
Speaker 2: like sit in that definition. Read what you read at
Speaker 2: the beginning there one more time for me.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, when someone treats you as an object, they are
Speaker 3: willing to harm for their own benefit, abuse has occurred,
Speaker 3: and that person has become an abuser.
Speaker 2: That's a great definition, right, Like that just calls to
Speaker 2: my mind scenarios that I might not have even considered
Speaker 2: or labeled as such before. Yeah, but yeah, that tracks,
Speaker 2: that tracks. Yeah, that's helpful, I should say too.
Speaker 3: In most situations where abuse happens, there is some sort
Speaker 3: of power differential, and that power differential might be because
Speaker 3: of the role that someone holds in a community, it
Speaker 3: might be because of their social identity as a person
Speaker 3: who is of a specific gender, and that power is
Speaker 3: what allows.
Speaker 4: The abuse to be effective.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that mitigates the self blame that
Speaker 3: comes sometimes with these situations, because it's never our fault
Speaker 3: when this happens. There's something that was already established that
Speaker 3: creates the ground upon which abuse grows. And we're going
Speaker 3: to talk a lot more about that ground because we'll
Speaker 3: be talking about how this happens in interpersonal interactions, but
Speaker 3: then also how organizations and communities create the space for
Speaker 3: this to be more likely.
Speaker 2: Let's dive into that you want too, So, like, where
Speaker 2: would you want to start? Do you want to start
Speaker 2: on the personal level or the organizational level?
Speaker 3: Well, I want to start with the personal level, and
Speaker 3: I also want to share a little bit more about
Speaker 3: how this abuse begins, especially on that interpersonal level, although
Speaker 3: it's also true at the organizational stage in many cases,
Speaker 3: but almost always, abuse speaks with language, and the person
Speaker 3: being abused gets this feeling something's not right, and the
Speaker 3: response to that feeling is no, it's not that something's
Speaker 3: not right, it's that you're not right. And that dismantling
Speaker 3: of self trust is how abuse begins. Oh so, understanding
Speaker 3: this and understanding that language is this powerful tool we
Speaker 3: can begin to enhance our own ability to fight back
Speaker 3: through having this language that describes how abuse happens. So
Speaker 3: this is a very empowering way to regain a sense
Speaker 3: of control in these situations where abuses happened. And then, furthermore,
Speaker 3: language is the thing that we use to speak our
Speaker 3: truth and create change in the communities that we're experiencing this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love the precision with which you talk
Speaker 2: about how this starts, because I think to become aware
Speaker 2: of and intervene earlier, if possible, in the process is
Speaker 2: potentially helpful. So in your experience, is there already a
Speaker 2: power differential that exists when that planting the seed of
Speaker 2: distrust in oneself starts, Because I mean, if that's the case,
Speaker 2: what then is happening is even more powers being garnered
Speaker 2: by the abuser because of the way they were removing
Speaker 2: your own sense of authority and trust in your own voice.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think that very oftentimes there is already a
Speaker 3: power differential, and so this undermining is more effective because
Speaker 3: of the power differential that already exists. And then it's
Speaker 3: this continuous process of dismantling our ability to trust ourselves
Speaker 3: that allows it to continue further than we would want
Speaker 3: it to. I'm reflecting back upon the last episode where
Speaker 3: you had shared a situation that you had at work
Speaker 3: and you felt in the beginning like there was already
Speaker 3: a power differential and you were trapped in a situation
Speaker 3: with another person that didn't completely feel safe, and then
Speaker 3: how they used that situation that was already in existence
Speaker 3: to then begin to plant information that crossed your boundaries
Speaker 3: and actions that cross your boundaries.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure I want to go into
Speaker 2: a huge tangent here, but I think it's important to
Speaker 2: kind of explore this idea of power, especially in this scenario,
Speaker 2: because I think, you know, when I say the word
Speaker 2: power in standing in your power or those who have power,
Speaker 2: I mean that word power might conjure up, at least
Speaker 2: for me, traditionally, it conjures up a bit of a
Speaker 2: how do I want to say?
Speaker 4: There's a resistance?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a resistance and an authoritarian yes stance to it.
Speaker 2: Power feels very like not necessarily violent, that's the wrong word,
Speaker 2: but there's a confrontation aspect. There's a force in that.
Speaker 2: And so I'm interested in thinking about what do I
Speaker 2: mean by power and what does it mean for me
Speaker 2: to be power?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 2: And so I think about in fact, Elizabeth Lesser talks
Speaker 2: about this a lot and well in her book Cassandra Speaks,
Speaker 2: and she talks about what power can also mean. And
Speaker 2: I think for me, power can mean knowing my own voice,
Speaker 2: trusting my own voice, and speaking my own voice like
Speaker 2: and acting out of that deeper knowing that I have
Speaker 2: and not giving that away to someone else, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think that can be a form of real power
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think we're talking about the dichotomy of power.
Speaker 3: And first I want to say that many many people
Speaker 3: have this response when they hear the word power, especially women,
Speaker 3: where they associate power with something quite negative. And I
Speaker 3: think what's important in this conversation is that when we're
Speaker 3: talking about abuse of power, what we're talking about is
Speaker 3: power over We're using the power that we have to
Speaker 3: try to influence another person to get something that we want,
Speaker 3: and that something is harmful to them. And so that
Speaker 3: is a very specific type of power. But another type
Speaker 3: of power, yeah, a misuse of power. That's a really
Speaker 3: great way to frame that. And then the other type
Speaker 3: of power that we're going to be talking about today
Speaker 3: is the power that we have within ourselves that comes
Speaker 3: from a sense of integrity and wholeness, That knowing where
Speaker 3: we realize that a situation is unsupportive and it's not
Speaker 3: good for us, and we can fully feel that experience
Speaker 3: and then use that experience to create real change, change
Speaker 3: in our own lives and change in our communities.
Speaker 2: That's really good. That's so interesting. Okay, so sorry for
Speaker 2: the tangent, but no, I don't think it's a tangent.
Speaker 3: I think this topic of power, I'm fascinated with it
Speaker 3: because I have, long before this abuse happened, the question
Speaker 3: that I had been asked king myself as why am
Speaker 3: I afraid of my own power? And it was because
Speaker 3: I had had so many people who used power over
Speaker 3: to try to get something from me that ultimately resulted
Speaker 3: in harm to myself. And when that's happened over and over,
Speaker 3: the fear is that when you step into your own power,
Speaker 3: you'll do the same thing. And one thing that this
Speaker 3: situation did for me is is it clarified who I
Speaker 3: am as a person in a way that I'm no
Speaker 3: longer afraid of that.
Speaker 4: And I think that.
Speaker 3: Being able to uphold truth in situations that are incredibly difficult,
Speaker 3: where everyone around us is trying to get us to
Speaker 3: question ourselves. That process is like a homing in on
Speaker 3: our own internal sense of what's right. And for me,
Speaker 3: that's the gift that I've been given from this experience.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, So what else would you like to
Speaker 2: sort of set up for us or share on a
Speaker 2: personal level.
Speaker 3: So I'd like to talk a little bit about how
Speaker 3: abuse happens in these interactions that we have. And one
Speaker 3: of the things that's I think an important concept when
Speaker 3: we're talking about abuse of power is something that the
Speaker 3: sociologist Irvin Goffman calls impression management. And so the way
Speaker 3: that he describes this is that we all have a
Speaker 3: front stage and a backstage self, and that is something
Speaker 3: that is normal. We all behave differently and want to
Speaker 3: represent ourselves in a certain way when we're in the
Speaker 3: presence of others. This becomes problematic when our front stage
Speaker 3: self is used to hide things, as they describe it,
Speaker 3: that ought not be hidden. These are things about ourselves
Speaker 3: that can cause damage. And so this concept of impression
Speaker 3: management is something that abusers are really adept at, and
Speaker 3: they use a variety of really specific tools to do this.
Speaker 3: So one of the things that they do in these
Speaker 3: situations where they're intending to abuse, consciously or unconsciously, is
Speaker 3: that they make the person feel like they're really special,
Speaker 3: make the person feel like they're part of their inner
Speaker 3: circle of trust. This might include a level of exclusivity,
Speaker 3: It might include doing favors for that person, or they
Speaker 3: describe it as overhelping. And this is something that I
Speaker 3: can say that I experienced in my situation. There were
Speaker 3: things that I shared with my teacher, and then later
Speaker 3: those points of vulnerability were wrapped up in the ways
Speaker 3: that this person tried to use our relationship to cross boundaries.
Speaker 3: And so, for example, knowing that I had had an
Speaker 3: emotional affair nine years ago, when this person had an affair,
Speaker 3: it was we're the same and that we're the same feeling.
Speaker 3: As part of what abusers use to garner that sense
Speaker 3: of trust, they oftentimes reveal more than they should in situations,
Speaker 3: so they're using their own vulnerability to weaponize and create
Speaker 3: that inner circle feeling. And that combination of getting a
Speaker 3: lot of positive attention, combined with the sense of this
Speaker 3: is specifically for you, and you and I are the same,
Speaker 3: creates a scenario where that person ultimately allows boundaries to
Speaker 3: be crossed that they would not normally allow to be crossed.
Speaker 3: So this is like a testing process. They slowly build
Speaker 3: this vulnerability and then this trust, and then once that
Speaker 3: is established, they strategically insert information and actions that would
Speaker 3: normally face resistance, but they're not facing resistance because that
Speaker 3: person has so much invested in the situation and there's
Speaker 3: such a bond. Can we pause for a second, because this.
Speaker 2: Is a pattern that immediately calls to mind, like a
Speaker 2: handful of people, it's crystallized that there was abuse happening there.
Speaker 2: Then they were the abuser, they abused power, and I was,
Speaker 2: in a sense in this kind of abusive relationship with them,
Speaker 2: which is a thing to just sit with for a second.
Speaker 2: And then also, I think the other place in my
Speaker 2: mind immediately goes is like when you use words like
Speaker 2: strategically kind of sharing information or I mean essentially what
Speaker 2: you're doing is like disarming people, like you want to
Speaker 2: get them disarmed so that there's closeness and boundaries that
Speaker 2: are normally there in the beginning of a relationship or
Speaker 2: sort of or dissolved so that right there's not that
Speaker 2: resistance to what's going to happen. But I'm just thinking
Speaker 2: about my worldview, and like, do people intentionally think like, oh,
Speaker 2: now's the time to drop that nugget of information so
Speaker 2: that this process can continue and I can disarm her. Wah,
Speaker 2: you know, Like I just yeah, I wonder is this
Speaker 2: something they've learned and they are doing, whether or not
Speaker 2: it's conscious or not. I mean that this is just
Speaker 2: how they operate in the world. Where does this come from?
Speaker 4: That's a great question.
Speaker 3: So I'm reflecting back upon situations where I was abused
Speaker 3: by someone, especially in my much younger years, and upon reflection,
Speaker 3: it's become clear to me.
Speaker 4: That those people were also abused.
Speaker 3: And so I think there is a pattern that exists,
Speaker 3: a template where it becomes imprinted in some way and
Speaker 3: then activated in these situations without people even realizing that
Speaker 3: it's happening. I wouldn't say for sure that that's the
Speaker 3: case with every individual. I'm curious how many folks who
Speaker 3: engage in these sort of behaviors have experienced this themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that tracks because as I think about
Speaker 2: like the examples in my life. I mean, I talk
Speaker 2: a lot on the one you feed about the relationship
Speaker 2: with my mom and also her illness and her death,
Speaker 2: and at the heart of that relationship was so much
Speaker 2: love and devotion for like me to her and her
Speaker 2: to me. I mean, I count myself so fortunate to
Speaker 2: have known that kind of love and devotion. And it
Speaker 2: was a very complicated relationship with also layers of a
Speaker 2: lot of pain and I realize, you know, emotional and
Speaker 2: verbal abuse. If I think about my mother, my sense
Speaker 2: is she didn't think the world was a safe place,
Speaker 2: and so she felt like in order to stay two
Speaker 2: steps ahead, this is how you move through life so
Speaker 2: that you're not caught off guard and potentially harmed. Ye right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: And I'm not even sure it was conscious. Maybe it was,
Speaker 2: maybe it wasn't, But I think that was a learned
Speaker 2: thing for her. I think that was a bit of
Speaker 2: a blind spot and a pattern that wasn't interrupted. Or
Speaker 2: if she just felt like the world was unsafe, she
Speaker 2: was unwilling to operate differently.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I want to pause here and just say
Speaker 3: that regardless of the love and care that's present in
Speaker 3: a relationship, that does not negate the need for boundaries
Speaker 3: when abuse is occurring. Unfortunately, many folks, I think can
Speaker 3: relate Jenny to the experience that you're describing. And I
Speaker 3: just worked with a group of teenagers just a few
Speaker 3: weeks ago, and we were talking about boundaries specifically, and
Speaker 3: many of them were describing situations at home where they
Speaker 3: had no control over those boundaries. And that is such
Speaker 3: a complicated and difficult dynamic. And I'm assuming that most
Speaker 3: of our audience right now are adults, and so in
Speaker 3: that scenario, the really empowering thing is that we can
Speaker 3: regain control in those situations and assert those boundaries and
Speaker 3: not have our past experience reframed for us as something
Speaker 3: that was okay. That's part of our power, yeah, is
Speaker 3: to be able to yea claim that because you're right.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's the other thing that was just not
Speaker 3: present with my mom was boundaries.
Speaker 2: Yeah. That was a bad word, right, Like boundaries equaled separation,
Speaker 2: and separation was not loving. And so therefore there's this
Speaker 2: enmeshment that happens, yeah.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And in situations where we're not talking about
Speaker 3: a parent, that enmeshment is also something that perpetrators of
Speaker 3: abuse rely upon. I think part of the reason that
Speaker 3: my boundaries were tested so significantly in the last interaction
Speaker 3: with my teacher was because he knew because I had
Speaker 3: shared with him how central he was to my spiritual
Speaker 3: life and experience, and that cost benefit analysis is something
Speaker 3: that perpetrators rely upon that the benefits are going to
Speaker 3: outweigh the costs of speaking our truth.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to talk a little bit too about
Speaker 3: in these personal interactions, when someone does cross a boundary
Speaker 3: with us, and we have the resources and the skill
Speaker 3: to say that's not okay, what happens? Then what is
Speaker 3: a standard response that a perpetrator might have in those situations?
Speaker 3: And in Wademullen's book, he specifically describes this concept called
Speaker 3: a flexible script, which I think is really an interesting
Speaker 3: idea that I saw played out in my own experience. So,
Speaker 3: when abusers get called out, what they do is basically
Speaker 3: say whatever they need to say to save the reputation
Speaker 3: and create the possibility that they'll still be able to
Speaker 3: fulfill that role and ultimately they'll still be able to
Speaker 3: abuse others in the same way. And so some of
Speaker 3: the things that I saw in my situation is that
Speaker 3: the abuser would respond very differently to different people depending
Speaker 3: upon what he thought they wanted to hear. So, just
Speaker 3: to give an example of this, one of the complaint
Speaker 3: processes was with this person's nomination, and they were Methodists,
Speaker 3: and so I was going through a process with a
Speaker 3: Methodist bishop's office, and far into the process, I asked
Speaker 3: this question of have you seen genuine remorse from this person?
Speaker 3: And they shared with me that they had seen so
Speaker 3: much remorse from him that they worried that he was
Speaker 3: going to hurt himself, and then proceeded to say that
Speaker 3: I did not need to worry about consequences because his
Speaker 3: life had been ruined, and that the letter that I
Speaker 3: had written was difficult for her to read, let alone
Speaker 3: for him to read. Meanwhile, at the same time, he
Speaker 3: was communicating with the church community and diminishing his role
Speaker 3: in the situation, asking them to hold any communications that
Speaker 3: I'd sent in confidentiality, and basically saying that he did
Speaker 3: not believe that what I was describing was an accurate
Speaker 3: portrayal of what had happened. So he's presenting very different
Speaker 3: fronts to different people. This can look like denials, it
Speaker 3: can look like excuses, it can look like justification. In
Speaker 3: the process, he very often said to the folks that
Speaker 3: were responsible for enforcing consequences, I was just at this
Speaker 3: point of crisis, and I made a mistake. It can
Speaker 3: include comparisons to others worse actions, so at least I
Speaker 3: didn't do blank and then lastly, relying upon any good
Speaker 3: deeds that that person has engaged in the past as
Speaker 3: a counterbalance to the complaints that are now coming forward.
Speaker 3: So all of that can happen when someone comes forward
Speaker 3: and says this wasn't right.
Speaker 2: And the thing that's missing on the side of the
Speaker 2: user is accountability, right, like acceptance, ownership of the action
Speaker 2: and accountability. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of
Speaker 2: things can be missing. Accountability is one of them and
Speaker 2: the most profound.
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 3: Also, you know, true remorse can be missing because in
Speaker 3: order to engage in abuse that is harmful to others,
Speaker 3: there has to be justification on the other person's side,
Speaker 3: and so that justification then becomes what I did, wasn't
Speaker 3: that bad? Or you know, that wasn't my intention, or
Speaker 3: here are the reasons that this unfolded the way that
Speaker 3: it did. So all of that has a lot of
Speaker 3: impacts on the individual who is trying to come forward
Speaker 3: and say this thing that happened wasn't okay.
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Speaker 2: I just want to pause for a second here and
Speaker 2: say there's a great book called Mistakes Were Made But
Speaker 2: Not by Me, And it's a book all about like
Speaker 2: this phenomenon of cognitive dissonance and how our brains can't
Speaker 2: tolerate it. Like there is a basic sense that we
Speaker 2: all have that we all need to preserve, which is
Speaker 2: that I'm a good person. Yeah, and so when we
Speaker 2: do actions that violate some sort of moral code. There's
Speaker 2: some sort of justification that happens subconsciously most of the
Speaker 2: time that explains why that was okay, or explains why
Speaker 2: normal consequences that could happen aren't going to happen to us.
Speaker 2: The example that they use is like smoking. You know,
Speaker 2: you engage smoking. It's very well known that that causes
Speaker 2: cancer and other kinds of illnesses. But like, if you
Speaker 2: know that and you still smoke, there's some story you're
Speaker 2: telling which makes that something you can engage in and
Speaker 2: not have that kind of dissonance that is hard to hold. Like,
Speaker 2: for example, well, I only have one a day, so
Speaker 2: it's not like I'm smoking a packa day, so et cetera,
Speaker 2: et cetera. Or well, I'm going to quit, you know,
Speaker 2: in the next couple of years and then I'll have
Speaker 2: plenty of time for my lungs to reset and I'll
Speaker 2: be fine, or cancer doesn't run in my family. I mean,
Speaker 2: there are all kinds of things to make this action
Speaker 2: that is objectively harmful not somehow as harmful. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I just think about what you're saying, which is like
Speaker 2: there's this need to preserve a sense of well, but
Speaker 2: I'm not an abuser, and here's why.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think in this conversation, yes, we need
Speaker 3: to understand how this happens, and that's why these things
Speaker 3: are important to talk about. And I also don't want
Speaker 3: to get in the place of trying to over empathize
Speaker 3: with people who engage in this type of behavior, because
Speaker 3: ultimately systems are doing that. And this might be a
Speaker 3: good time to shift gears and talk about how organizations
Speaker 3: allow this kind of thing to happen, because that's the norm. Okay,
Speaker 3: let's do that. The norm is that this is allowed.
Speaker 3: The norm is that this is excused. The norm is
Speaker 3: that this is justified. And I think that this is
Speaker 3: another quote from Wade Mullen, nothing stays hidden without help,
Speaker 3: and that help comes through silence and then this is
Speaker 3: my term, and through willful ignorance. So another concept that
Speaker 3: was described in this book is this idea of disruptive information.
Speaker 3: And oftentimes in organizations, disruptive information is hidden or it's
Speaker 3: obscured because it threatens people's vision of that key leader
Speaker 3: and it threatens their vision of that community. So it's
Speaker 3: actually too painful to be able to acknowledge what's really happened.
Speaker 3: And again, consciously or unconsciously, this information gets buried. I
Speaker 3: want to talk a little bit more about this concept
Speaker 3: of disruptive information, and before I do, I want to
Speaker 3: read this quote, and this is from Judith Herman in
Speaker 3: the book. It says, it's very tempting to take the
Speaker 3: side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that
Speaker 3: the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire
Speaker 3: to see, hear, and speak no evil. The victim, on
Speaker 3: the other hand, asks the bystander to share the burden
Speaker 3: of pain. The victim demands action, engagement. Remembering, so when
Speaker 3: a victim is presenting disruptive information, the desire of the
Speaker 3: organization is to take the path of least resistance, and
Speaker 3: oftentimes that looks like tactful and attention. So this is
Speaker 3: another concept that's from a sociologist. And this concept I
Speaker 3: think goes from what I would describe is benign strategies
Speaker 3: that we all use to get through social situations, to
Speaker 3: collective delusions that create a safe haven for abuse to happen.
Speaker 3: On the benign example, I think this is something that
Speaker 3: many folks can relate to. I've showed this example before
Speaker 3: and it seems to resonate. We are on public transit
Speaker 3: for a moment, and the train, the plane, wherever it
Speaker 3: is that we are is full, and everybody's kind of
Speaker 3: scrunched in together, and someone on that train or that
Speaker 3: plane or that bus starts playing a video or a
Speaker 3: song or whatever on their phone very loudly without headphones.
Speaker 4: And this is a pet peeve of mine.
Speaker 3: Normally, what happens in that situation is that we all
Speaker 3: engage in tactful inattention. We just agree to pretend that
Speaker 3: this isn't happening, that it's not annoying, and no one
Speaker 3: says anything. But the same idea of tactful in attention
Speaker 3: also comes into play when disruptive information that threatens organizations
Speaker 3: or threatens leaders comes to the fore, and collectively, the
Speaker 3: decision is made that we're going to obscure that information.
Speaker 3: We're not going to hear it fully, we're not going
Speaker 3: to engage in transparency. We're just going to all sit
Speaker 3: and you know, hold our hands on our laps and
Speaker 3: wait for this to be over. So what happens is
Speaker 3: that organizations desire to avoid a scandal rather than seeking
Speaker 3: the real change that would actually make community spaces safer.
Speaker 3: And then the second way that this happens is that
Speaker 3: there's a lack of transparency in the community about exactly
Speaker 3: what happened. This is where I think the term confidentiality
Speaker 3: becomes weaponized under the assumption the confidentiality is about keeping
Speaker 3: the victim safe. Very oftentimes it's a about keeping the
Speaker 3: organization safe. It's about keeping the perpetrator safe because they
Speaker 3: oftentimes fulfill these key roles in the community where if
Speaker 3: there's damage done to them, it also impacts the organization
Speaker 3: as a whole. And then lastly, organizations and communities become
Speaker 3: really overly focused on the good that they've done, like, yes,
Speaker 3: this thing happened, but you know, look at all of
Speaker 3: these other good things that we're doing at the same time,
Speaker 3: Like we're thriving more than ever, Like we're going to
Speaker 3: move past this. It's almost like that grit and resilience
Speaker 3: idea of we're going to be better than ever.
Speaker 2: You know what's interesting is I think back in my
Speaker 2: years in corporate America when realizations come into mind, which
Speaker 2: is I was either told or lured or whatever. Now,
Speaker 2: if you're listening and you're in HR and I'm getting
Speaker 2: this wrong, please do let me know. I don't mean
Speaker 2: to mislabel HR in this way if this is incorrect.
Speaker 2: My understanding was that HR's role is to protect the company,
Speaker 2: not you, the person, right Like, they're not actually there
Speaker 2: to advocate for individuals. They're actually there to advocate and
Speaker 2: protect the organization. So I just find that an interesting idea.
Speaker 2: I've managed people, that was one of my roles, and
Speaker 2: so I worked with HR a lot in the personnel management,
Speaker 2: in hiring and firing kind of process. So that does
Speaker 2: track with my experience of the HR departments I worked with.
Speaker 2: But it also makes me think about, you know, an
Speaker 2: idea that we've talked about, which is just the importance
Speaker 2: of gathering allies of your own, right, like those that
Speaker 2: you know whose role is about supporting and protecting like you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's a team of people that can be very important
Speaker 2: to assemble, I would say, But I'd love to know
Speaker 2: what your thoughts are.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, one of the things that your comment made me
Speaker 3: think of was my own disillusionment with communities in this process,
Speaker 3: because what I realized is that while I was hearing
Speaker 3: the message, our priorities are first of all, protecting you,
Speaker 3: second of all, protecting any other victims, and third of all,
Speaker 3: protecting the church. It became very clear that the church
Speaker 3: was the prime thing that was being protected, and I
Speaker 3: don't think that's even a conscious choice. I think when
Speaker 3: folks invest their lives, their work, their energy, their resources
Speaker 3: into these communities, it becomes too personally damaging to actually
Speaker 3: do the work that would require them to reassess the
Speaker 3: fruitful and good nature of that organization. It becomes a
Speaker 3: position that people take without even realizing that their primary
Speaker 3: motivation is to make sure that that community doesn't get damaged,
Speaker 3: and how they view that is shutting someone down instead
Speaker 3: of really looking at what change needs to happen. Organizations
Speaker 3: are primed for this type of abuse when a few
Speaker 3: things happen. The first one is when secrets are kept.
Speaker 3: The second one is when roles are seen as above reproach.
Speaker 3: The term used here might be keystone rolls. These are
Speaker 3: roles that are pivotal to the community and the reliance
Speaker 3: upon that charismatic leader makes the community overinvested in they're
Speaker 3: being a safe person. And then, lastly, when organizations are
Speaker 3: insular and they're not transparent to influence and oversight, which
Speaker 3: is why in my process. Bringing a DEI expert, my
Speaker 3: friend law Baker, into the experience was key because she
Speaker 3: was the outside set of eyes to say, this isn't
Speaker 3: just our community who's looking at this issue, this is
Speaker 3: a larger issue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3: So I think we can transition into what this process
Speaker 3: actually feels like for individuals who are experiencing it, and
Speaker 3: you maybe you can talk a little bit about what
Speaker 3: it was like for you to be in a situation
Speaker 3: where there was abuse of power in an organization and
Speaker 3: you didn't.
Speaker 4: Have the support that you needed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's important to talk about because
Speaker 2: as we've described how abusive power can happen on the
Speaker 2: individual and collective level. You know, it's helpful because then
Speaker 2: we can begin to spot it and know what things
Speaker 2: to watch out for. So now talking about what that
Speaker 2: experience feels like for people experiencing it, individuals experiencing it,
Speaker 2: I think it's important because then you can begin to
Speaker 2: identify it within yourself. When you start noticing things, feelings
Speaker 2: and thoughts like this, you know they can be markers, trailheads.
Speaker 2: So just if I reflect on that, when you think
Speaker 2: about really that grooming stage of when the abuser is
Speaker 2: creating closeness beyond what is maybe appropriate in either that
Speaker 2: relationship or that stage of the relationship or whatever. For me,
Speaker 2: that initially feels like a privilege, Like I'm getting this
Speaker 2: like closeness and inside access to someone who is in power,
Speaker 2: which makes me feel like somehow I'm then in a
Speaker 2: position of privilege, right, Like somehow I'm in a position
Speaker 2: where it's going to be advantageous to have that kind
Speaker 2: of relationship, especially in a corporate setting, because you know,
Speaker 2: there is that power over you as like an employee,
Speaker 2: so career wise, you know, we all know that relationships
Speaker 2: are so important. So like now you have the super
Speaker 2: relationship with someone that has power, and so like that
Speaker 2: can only be good, right, I Mean, that's just going
Speaker 2: to put you in an advantageous position moving forward. That's
Speaker 2: just the reality of the world. So I feel like
Speaker 2: that's something that might be good to watch out for
Speaker 2: and to sort of investigate when it comes up, like
Speaker 2: what's actually happening here? But then when the abuse of
Speaker 2: power is so clearly happening, and the abuse is happening,
Speaker 2: and there's really a sense that there's no one I
Speaker 2: can tell or there's no way to seek protection from
Speaker 2: this person and that it's up to me. There's a
Speaker 2: sense of panic, There's a sense of like the burden
Speaker 2: of figuring this out is just completely on me, Like
Speaker 2: I just got to figure this out. Like I've got
Speaker 2: to find a way I not only have to take
Speaker 2: this abuse, but then I've got to fix the abuse. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I've got to just do that by my bootstraps.
Speaker 2: I've just got to, you know, somehow be savvy enough
Speaker 2: to navigate my way out of an abusive relationship in
Speaker 2: a system that can never know what happens. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: you're sort of always on guard. You know, you're always
Speaker 2: on guard for mitigating opportunities for abuse to happen again
Speaker 2: while also not further hurting yourself by disrupting the relationship
Speaker 2: or the organization.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's an impossible charge, really, I mean it feels that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is an impossible charge to both be able
Speaker 3: to protect ourselves and also not disrupt a system where
Speaker 3: when we disrupt it, we know there will be costs
Speaker 3: to us. I have some kind of questions or statements
Speaker 3: that really resonated when I thought about what this feels
Speaker 3: like on a personal level and what feelings are that
Speaker 3: came up. I think when abuse happens, it creates confusion,
Speaker 3: it creates disorientation. There's this question of how did I
Speaker 3: get here? Like how did I let this happen? Which
Speaker 3: I think can lead to a sense of self blame.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3: Then there's this lack of agency too, like and I
Speaker 3: heard you saying that, like can I even stop this?
Speaker 3: How can I stop this? That feeling of helplessness. I
Speaker 3: think that can come up in situations like this, And
Speaker 3: then for some folks, and I'm curious if you felt
Speaker 3: this at all. I think it's very common. It can
Speaker 3: create a sense of shame like how could I let
Speaker 3: this happen? Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is literally the next thing I was going
Speaker 2: to say, which is it's the shame and the anticipation
Speaker 2: of others judging you, Like I anticipate others going like
Speaker 2: what did you do to get into this situation? Like
Speaker 2: how did you let this happen? Like with the previous
Speaker 2: sposs I had that I talked about in the last episode,
Speaker 2: it's like, what signs did you give him that this
Speaker 2: was okay?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, you clearly are not operating in an ethical
Speaker 2: way because you left the door wide open. You know,
Speaker 2: he thought they were was an opportunity there, So you
Speaker 2: anticipate that judgment.
Speaker 4: Yeah, at least I did.
Speaker 2: And so then there's that thinking that that's true inside
Speaker 2: myself that keeps you silent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is the last thing that I would say
Speaker 3: really happens in these situations when we're in these scenarios,
Speaker 3: is this is my fault. So I can't tell anyone
Speaker 3: and will anyone even believe my side of the story,
Speaker 3: because there's going to be another side. These folks are
Speaker 3: going to fight back because they want their reputation and
Speaker 3: their position of power to be protected.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, it's very hard.
Speaker 3: It's a very difficult situation to be in. Yeah, it's
Speaker 3: the hardest situation. Yes, the situations where abuse have happened
Speaker 3: in my life are my hardest moments.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then you know, we can take this lens of
Speaker 3: thinking about how incredibly challenging this is to the person
Speaker 3: who's experiencing it all ready, and then we can shift
Speaker 3: this over to Okay, so now we want to do something,
Speaker 3: and we say something, and then what happens at the
Speaker 3: organizational level. This is my experience when you share disruptive information,
Speaker 3: when you share abuse has happened, and I am a
Speaker 3: victim of abuse. You are made to feel like a problem. Yes,
Speaker 3: you become the problem.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, well that's you nailed it right there for sure.
Speaker 2: Now you've got this trouble maker. Now we got to
Speaker 2: deal with this problem. Thanks a lot, exactly exactly I mean.
Speaker 2: And in the aftermath of that, feeling again conscious or unconscious,
Speaker 2: you get ignored, literally ignored, you know, like I talked
Speaker 2: about in the last episode, I went months without just
Speaker 2: being able to have a meeting where I gave feedback
Speaker 2: on how this situation was handled.
Speaker 4: And it's dehumanizing.
Speaker 1: M h.
Speaker 3: You feel like you don't matter and you're doing this
Speaker 3: incredibly hard thing, one of the hardest things you've done
Speaker 3: in your life. And at the same time, that's the
Speaker 3: message that you're receiving, not thinks not I'm sorry, but.
Speaker 4: I wish you would disappear.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's insanity making process because you have this really
Speaker 3: strong sense of urgency about what needs to be done
Speaker 3: because you have just been traumatized, and no one else
Speaker 3: that you're communicating with seems to share that sense of urgency.
Speaker 3: It makes you question everything because you're like, you're like,
Speaker 3: why is everyone around me behaving as if nothing is happening, Right, You.
Speaker 2: Anticipate the shame and blame that's going to come with
Speaker 2: speaking up, and instead what you're met with oftentimes is
Speaker 2: like the sense of like indifference, indifference, and like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it makes you crazy. You're like, wait a minute, everybody,
Speaker 2: this awful thing has happened.
Speaker 4: What Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, I think again we talked before
Speaker 3: about like templates of abuse and interpersonal relationships. I think
Speaker 3: there's a template for the collective indifference to abuse by
Speaker 3: people in power, and that template it comes with a goal,
Speaker 3: and the goal is to where the victim's mental, emotional,
Speaker 3: spiritual resources down so that they will give up any
Speaker 3: attempt at making real change.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think of the word like disruptors, this disruption that happens,
Speaker 2: and even on like the mass transit example of like
Speaker 2: the person playing the really annoying music, but it's like
Speaker 2: you don't want to disrupt the situation that's collectively being
Speaker 2: agreed to, Like that's just really hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the impact of that is that victims feel
Speaker 3: completely alone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, completely alone.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So let's talk a little bit about how healing can happen.
Speaker 2: Yes, what can we do what would be healing to do,
Speaker 2: what would be helpful to do if we find ourselves
Speaker 2: in this situation.
Speaker 3: I have another quote that I want to share with
Speaker 3: you from Something's Not Right, and it says many live
Speaker 3: with untold stories not because they know want to tell them,
Speaker 3: but because they never encounter safe people in safe spaces
Speaker 3: where their stories.
Speaker 4: Can be heard.
Speaker 3: And so what this said to me, The reason that
Speaker 3: this spoke to me is because it's paramount to find
Speaker 3: those safe spaces where we can speak our truth. And
Speaker 3: I think that navigating these situations, there's no right or
Speaker 3: wrong way to go about it. But first of all,
Speaker 3: it needs to look like finding allies and community members
Speaker 3: who will look at us and say, I believe you,
Speaker 3: this isn't your fault. I want to stand with you.
Speaker 3: When you find those supportive folks, you can begin to
Speaker 3: navigate these confusing waters of what to do next. But
Speaker 3: to do that without some sort of support is a
Speaker 3: difficult path that I want to navigate folks away from
Speaker 3: because it is so emotionallymaging. And I also understand that
Speaker 3: it is a challenge sometimes to find those people, but
Speaker 3: we have to keep looking, and even if we need
Speaker 3: to tell them. Here's what I need from you in
Speaker 3: this moment. This is what I need, and make that
Speaker 3: very clear. I need you to say these words to me,
Speaker 3: and that I need you to trust how I choose
Speaker 3: to move through this situation and support that. And then
Speaker 3: from there we can begin to ask ourselves the question
Speaker 3: of what does it look like to share our truth
Speaker 3: and spaces that are unsafe and we know that, and
Speaker 3: that might be conversations with someone who has crossed a
Speaker 3: boundary with us, with someone else present and we're saying
Speaker 3: this wasn't okay and I need it to stop. It
Speaker 3: might be saying our truth in our communities and making
Speaker 3: a formal report in some way. Those are choices and
Speaker 3: options that we have once we have the support that
Speaker 3: we need, and in speaking our truth however much we
Speaker 3: can with as much authority as we can, that's where
Speaker 3: healing happens, because we're affirming our own human dignity in
Speaker 3: those moments where we say, no, enough, this isn't okay.
Speaker 2: So I want to just go back to the first step,
Speaker 2: which is to begin sharing our experience with safe people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I think.
Speaker 2: That's sometimes when you're in this boat of shame of
Speaker 2: like anticipatory shame and existing current shame for like the
Speaker 2: whole situation, or maybe you're afraid of the consequences and
Speaker 2: so speaking up to anyone feels very dangerous. Whatever the
Speaker 2: reasons that keep you blocked and stuck in silenced, it
Speaker 2: might be helpful to orient towards a person even outside
Speaker 2: of the community where the abuse is happening, to start with, Like,
Speaker 2: perhaps it's a trusted friend. Perhaps it's someone that's completely
Speaker 2: disconnected from that situation, but you know you can trust
Speaker 2: to listen and respond in a way that you know
Speaker 2: you either ask them to or that you anticipate will be.
Speaker 2: Like they're on team Brandy, you know, or their team Jinny. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and so a family member, a friend, therapist, Because I
Speaker 2: think the act of just speaking your truth for even
Speaker 2: the first time, is a powerful act because you begin
Speaker 2: to let those words come out of your head and
Speaker 2: out of your mouth and they are received by somebody,
Speaker 2: and therefore that experience now exists in like a safe
Speaker 2: context where it can be explored and witnessed. And hell yeah,
Speaker 2: just that very first brave act of telling someone that
Speaker 2: you trust can be the beginning of some healing there.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that the part of staying silent
Speaker 2: and being like the one on the public transit who
Speaker 2: hears the music and is like, we need to say
Speaker 2: something like this is crazy. This person should just put
Speaker 2: on some headphones. Like if there's one other person that
Speaker 2: you turn to and you say that too, and they're like, absolutely,
Speaker 2: who is this jackass listening to this video? You know,
Speaker 2: immediately you feel a sense of like you're power coming back. Yeah, like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's not just me, it's not just me. No, that's
Speaker 2: really fun. Wrong, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: I resonate with what you're saying, and it's really important.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really important.
Speaker 2: I think when we put the abusive experience into a
Speaker 2: safe context, even we then begin to see the harm
Speaker 2: that's been caused and how not okay the actions are,
Speaker 2: and then we can begin to talk through what else,
Speaker 2: if anything needs to be done at this time, right
Speaker 2: for your own healing or for organizational support to eradicate
Speaker 2: the systemic.
Speaker 4: Abuse of power, use of power.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can begin to explore that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, I think one framework that is helpful for me is, again,
Speaker 3: this is from something's not right, but abuse is a
Speaker 3: community concern. It's not an individual issue, and So it's
Speaker 3: communities that create the spaces that allow for us to happen,
Speaker 3: and then as we continue in the process and try
Speaker 3: to share our truth, that then allow these experiences to
Speaker 3: be hidden. It's through community that we will begin to
Speaker 3: find healing.
Speaker 4: Again.
Speaker 3: It cannot be an individual endeavor because it's not our
Speaker 3: fault and it's not just our problem. It's everyone's problem
Speaker 3: that this happens so frequently.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, even in a one on one relationship. I mean,
Speaker 2: community sounds like a big word, right, but it's like
Speaker 2: community is just you and another person that is its
Speaker 2: own little community. You in a handful of people, or
Speaker 2: you in an entire organization.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And in both of our situations, yes, it was
Speaker 3: a one on one interaction. It was a one on
Speaker 3: one abuse situation, but you were in this corporate environment
Speaker 3: where you knew that if you shared the information it
Speaker 3: was at risk to your financial success, your sense of
Speaker 3: purpose in your career, all of these things. So there's
Speaker 3: a huge cost, and that cost is established by the
Speaker 3: community that you're a part of. And similarly, in my situation,
Speaker 3: this person was embedded in a community of people that
Speaker 3: he used to fish for potential victims that he could
Speaker 3: then cross boundaries with yeah, and again, whether that's conscious
Speaker 3: or unconscious, that's the process that was happening, and the
Speaker 3: community itself is what allowed for that of use to happen.
Speaker 3: And in the wake of reporting my own incident, I
Speaker 3: found out that this church had experienced similar situations with
Speaker 3: other perpetrators on a number of occasions. So this is
Speaker 3: not a one time thing that's happening. This is happening
Speaker 3: over and over and over again in so many of
Speaker 3: these communities.
Speaker 2: I guess I'm thinking too about like even in friendships
Speaker 2: or romantic relationships, like where it's you and the other person, right,
Speaker 2: and it's not necessarily a greater community that holds that
Speaker 2: relationship as much as it is one on one in
Speaker 2: your own life. I mean, I think you can still
Speaker 2: then go build a community of support right outside of
Speaker 2: that relationship to help you navigate those waters.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, when we're talking about abuse, and we're talking about
Speaker 3: abuse of power, it can begin to feel that the
Speaker 3: world is a really dark place and that we are
Speaker 3: unsafe in our communities, in our relationships, and our bodies.
Speaker 3: And I definitely got that sense in this experience, and
Speaker 3: so I want to end our conversation today on a
Speaker 3: note of hope. And there's another quote that I want
Speaker 3: to read from Wade Mullen's book, and it's this, every
Speaker 3: act of abuse is an assault on beauty. So I've
Speaker 3: learned to find the beauty that the abuser is seeking
Speaker 3: to assault and dismantle. In this conversation, I think the
Speaker 3: beauty that is being assaulted is our willingness to trust
Speaker 3: others to hold our vulnerability, to create safe space for us.
Speaker 3: And I felt confident and determined throughout this entire process
Speaker 3: until today that I would not allow that to be
Speaker 3: dismantled by a single person, or even by a community
Speaker 3: or a system that doesn't value my truth. And I
Speaker 3: think that that's something that we can all hold as
Speaker 3: we move through these situations of abuse. What is the
Speaker 3: beauty that's here that's being assaulted, and what do I
Speaker 3: want to do to protect that beauty?
Speaker 4: Because it's real?
Speaker 2: I love that. Thank you for that. That's a wonderful
Speaker 2: note to end this conversation on. And I just hope
Speaker 2: that the things that we've shared have helped people identify
Speaker 2: instances in their own lives where there's an opportunity to
Speaker 2: reclaim power to speak truth to first safe people, and
Speaker 2: then to navigate the waters in community because we're not alone, right,
Speaker 2: because we're not alone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And to find healing in ourselves and healing in
Speaker 3: our world for people who have experienced abuse, and to
Speaker 3: know that that healing includes the awareness that we're not
Speaker 3: alone in these experiences, even if not a single other
Speaker 3: person ever knows what we've been through, and that there
Speaker 3: is some beauty inside of us that while others may
Speaker 3: seek to dismantle it, it's ours and they can't take it.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Brandy so much, and thank you listeners for
Speaker 2: joining us in this conversation, and we hope that it's
Speaker 2: been supportive and helpful and we've really enjoyed talking. Thank
Speaker 2: you friends, all right, see you next time, See you
Speaker 2: next tie.
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Speaker 3: Most of all, thank you so much for spending your
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