1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Hi, This is newt Twenty twenty is going to be 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: one of the most extraordinary election years of our lifetime. 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: I want to invite you to join my Inner Circle 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: as we discuss each twist and turn in the presidential race. 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: In my members only Inner Circle Club, you'll receive special 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: flash briefings, online events, and members only audio reports from 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: me and my team. Here is a special offer for 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. 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Join My Inner Circle today at Newtcenter 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: Circle dot com slash podcast use the Code podcast at checkout. 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: Sign up today at Newtcenter Circle dot com slash podcast 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: and use the Code podcast Hurry this Offtway Spires February fourteenth. 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World, as I watched the 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: terrible fire in Paris that was destroying the cathedral of 18 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: Notre Dame, my thoughts went back to the many times 19 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: I had visited, starting as a young child when my 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: dad was stationed in Germany. The scale and majesty of 21 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: Notre Dame is almost overpowering. Notre Dame is one of 22 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: the greatest examples of Gothic architecture. When you stand inside, 23 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: you feel lifted to the heavens by the very shape 24 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: of the building. As a historian, I wanted to devote 25 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: a special episode to Notre Dame's story, architecture, and its 26 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: importance to the whole world. This is not the first 27 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: time the cathedral, known as Our Lady, was nearly destroyed. 28 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: Throughout its eight hundred year history. Notre Dame lived through 29 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: the ransacking of the French Revolution, Wars of Religion, and 30 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: two World Wars. One of my favorite is Ken Follart, who, 31 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: in addition to his spy novels, writes epic historic fiction. 32 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: The Pillars of the Earth is his classic novel and 33 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: television miniseries based on extensive research he did based on 34 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,239 Speaker 1: the building cathedrals like Notre Dame. Ken is an outstanding 35 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: author and historian. I'm pleased to welcome in as my 36 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: guest to talk about Notre Dame and its historic significance 37 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: and the profound impact the fire has had on all 38 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: of us. What were your feelings as you've saw Notre 39 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: Dame and saw what happened over the last week, but 40 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: it was absolutely devastating. On Monday night, we were just 41 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: finishing dinner and a friend how happened to be in 42 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: Paris called and she said, I'm in Paris, to turn 43 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 1: on your TV. And we saw the church burning. And 44 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: first of all, you sort of think of these cathedrals 45 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: as permanent, and they were built to last forever. We 46 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: were living in London and Paris. You walk past these 47 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: buildings every day and you look at them and we 48 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: cherish them, but we kind of think they're always going 49 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: to be there. And this fire was so bad that 50 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: I was not a torsure that the cathedral could survive 51 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: the fire. It was tremendously hot, that flames were so bright, 52 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: and I just felt that we were probably going to 53 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: lose it, and what a terrible loss it will be. 54 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: This Notre Dame de Paris is at the center of Paris, 55 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: and it's at the center of France, and in fact, 56 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: what we would call milestones, although they're across kilometer stones 57 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: in France, anywhere you see a sign saying Paris one 58 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty kilometers, that means that that point is 59 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty kilometers from Notre Dame Cathedral, because 60 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: that's considered the center of Paris, and so all measurements 61 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: all over France, the measurement of the distance from here 62 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: to Paris is actually the measurement of the distance to 63 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: Notre Dame Cathedral. And that's just a kind of symbol 64 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: of the way that Notre Dame is the center of 65 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: the city, and French people feel that way about it, 66 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: and they, like everybody else, they would kind of assume, 67 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 1: as we would assume, that Westminster Abbey will just always 68 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: be there. And when you see the place in severe 69 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: danger of complete destruction, it's a shock. It's a terrific 70 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: shock because you are being surprised, you're being absolutely astounded. 71 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: I thought, you know, when I finally went to bed 72 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: on Monday night, I thought I was going to wake 73 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: up in the morning and discover that there was absolutely 74 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: no cathedral there. That's what a lot of people thought. 75 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: According to the French papers, they actually managed to put 76 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: out the fire in the bell towers with about thirty 77 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: minutes to spare. If it had taken them half an 78 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: hour longer, they probably would have lost those bell towers, 79 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: and that would have meant they would have lost the 80 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: entire church, so it was a very close thing. And 81 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: so it was shock. And we looked on the TV. 82 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: We looked at those Parisians standing in the street. There 83 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: they were thousands and thousands of Parisians were standing in 84 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: the street looking across the river at the cathedral, and 85 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: they were weeping. People were just openly weeping as they 86 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: watched the flames defound this cathedral. It was tragedy, was 87 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: like somebody had died, terrifically emotional, first of all for 88 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: French people, but also for people all over the world 89 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: who think of this church as somehow representing France. It 90 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: was a tremendously emotional, devastatingly emotional moment. Neude Well, I 91 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: was always shocked because of course, and I had been 92 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: there many times, and when I was looking at the background, 93 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: something like thirteen million people a year have been visiting 94 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: Notre Dame and they want to see it so badly 95 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: that the average person actually waits in line for about 96 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: two hours to get in. So you can sense that 97 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: there was this real hunger for people from all over 98 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: the world as they would come to Paris to come 99 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: and see this extraordinary place. I was very encouraged when 100 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: President Macron said they would rebuild it and do it 101 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: quickly and do it as it was. What was your 102 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: sense of that when they announced that it was not 103 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: going to in fact be abandoned, but would be rebuilt. 104 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: I actually saw Macron live on TV and he said 105 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: new robatroon, we will rebuild new rubatiroon. And first of all, 106 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: that was very heartening, and they pretty quickly started talking 107 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: about what will be necessary. There's going to be an 108 00:06:54,560 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: issue about materials because it turns out that though timbers 109 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: in the roof which actually burned and actually caused the fire, 110 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: those roof timbers were very, very long, and there are 111 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: no longer any trees in France high enough to provide 112 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: roof beams of that length, and they not sure whether 113 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: there are any even in the world, and they're not 114 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: sure what they're going to do about it. So there 115 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: are going to be a lot of issues. But President Macron, 116 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: bless his heart, he came right out and said we're 117 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: going to do it in five years. And there's a 118 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: reason for that because in twenty twenty four Paris has 119 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: the Olympic Games and they want the cathedral finished in time. 120 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: One of the newspapers in Paris said the headline was 121 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: President Macron believes in miracles, and it may well be. 122 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it will be like a miracle. If they 123 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,239 Speaker 1: can rebuilding in five years, that would be like a miracle. 124 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: It's a very very ambitious timetable. But you know, God 125 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: bless the French. When they put their mind to something, 126 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: they can be very determined about it. So listen, let's 127 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: cross our fingers and wish them luck well. I think 128 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: for that kind of a timetable, they'll have people working 129 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: around the clock, and in some places, I mean, I'd 130 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: be very curious whether they can find substitutes for the 131 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: large oak trees that are nonetheless acceptable in taking care 132 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: of the roofing in a way that still looks exactly 133 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: like Notre Dame has looked for the last nine hundred years. 134 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: It will be a remarkable achievement if they can do it. 135 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: I agree with you, And but you can also imagine 136 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: if they can do it, that every visitor to the 137 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: Olympics is going to want to go by and see 138 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: Notre Dame as part of that experience, and they'll become 139 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: part of again defining Paris. The other thing I was 140 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: only struck with is that these great cathedrals in a 141 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: sense live through history. In the case of Notre Dame, 142 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: they had the French Revolution, they had priests who were executed, 143 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: they had nuns who were executed, the anti clerical fanaticism 144 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: of the French revolutionaries. You know, you could imagine at 145 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: one point that the cathedral itself might have been in danger, 146 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: and yet time goes on to be captured in a 147 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: sense by the church continues to be a center of 148 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: religion even today France, which is far more secular than 149 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: it would have been back when they were building. This 150 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: strikes me that that these are great frameworks within which 151 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: history occurs. And I wonder if you had some of 152 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: that sense both in your writing as you were creating this, 153 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: and of course you then wrote two more volumes about 154 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: the town, the people in it, and what happened over 155 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: several centuries. But did you also that sense that once 156 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: the cathedral gets started, that it becomes a vessel within 157 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: which history occurs. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And in a way, 158 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: Kingsbridge in my novels, has come to represent England. So 159 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: what happens in Kingsbridge is very representative of what's happening 160 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: in England at that period of history. And of course, 161 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: if when you have a building of that size, a 162 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: building so imposing in a city, then it naturally becomes 163 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: a focus. So Notre Dame the parry is where royal 164 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: people would get married, you know, kings and queens would 165 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: get married at Notre Dame. Napoleon was crowned emperor at 166 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: Notre Dame. Napoleon was nothing if not a showman, and 167 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: he knew that if he was going to be Emperor 168 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: of France, he would have to have that kind of 169 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: stage on which to become emperor, and the building lends 170 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,599 Speaker 1: itself to that. Of course, the French revolutionaries hated it 171 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: because they felt that the monarchy that had been oppressing 172 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: the French people had been kind of hand in love 173 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: with the Church, and they weren't rot The way that 174 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: the senior priests of the Church in France behaved over 175 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: centuries was nothing to be proud of. They lived the 176 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: life of Riley, you know, very wealthy and so on. 177 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: And of course, as we know, as always happens, there 178 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: were also many very dedicated men and women in the 179 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: Catholic Church in France who did wonderful good works. But 180 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: the revolutionaries had some reason to be anti clerical, and 181 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: they did. As you mention. A moment ago, the revolutionaries 182 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: talked about destroying Notre Dame. They didn't do that. In 183 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: the end, they used it as a corn store for years. 184 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: When Hitler left Paris after the Allied landings nineteen forty four, 185 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: as the Allies were approaching Paris, Hitler left and his 186 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: parting words were Burnett. He wanted Notre Dame flattened before 187 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: the Nazis left, and interestingly, the man he left in 188 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: charge of Paris refused to do it, and so Notre 189 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: Dame was yet again save. It's several times, isn't it. 190 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 1: Notre Dame has been saved. And on Monday night it 191 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: was saved from destruction by I think the bravery of 192 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: the fireman, and they saved the cathedral and some of 193 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: the holy relics, the crown of Thorns, which is probably 194 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: the most precious relic to Catholics, most precious relic in 195 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: all of France to Catholics, is that Crown of Thorns, 196 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: and that was saved by the firemen, risking their lives 197 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: and going in and picking up these precious objects and 198 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: taking them out so again and again throughout history, the 199 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: cathedral of Notre Dame de Parry has been just about 200 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: saved from destruction. Well, let me remind our listeners that 201 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: if you want to get a real feel for this 202 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: how you end up with a place as magnificent, you 203 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: should really look at the work that Ken has done, 204 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: because it gives you a real feeling for how they 205 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: went about the process of building this kind of cathedral. 206 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: You're such a unique person. You really persevered and becoming 207 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: a novelist and learning the trade and starting out as 208 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: a reporter. What led you to just keep writing? I mean, 209 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: how did you? What is there inside you that leads 210 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: you to do this? Well, I've always lived in my 211 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: imagination a great deal, and when I was a little boy, 212 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: I was always pretending to be something else. I was 213 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: always pretending to be a cowboy, or a pirate, or 214 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: the captain of a spaceship. And at the same time, 215 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: as a little boy, I loved stories. I loved people 216 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: reading to me, and I learned to read myself at 217 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: quite a young age. Imagination and stories have always been 218 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: pretty much a deep part of my soul, and it 219 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: was I guess when I graduated college, I became a 220 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,479 Speaker 1: newspaper reporter, but I realized that I didn't love newspapers, 221 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: but I did love books, particularly novels, and so I 222 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: continued to write. I kept having these ideas. I would think, 223 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: this is a great idea for a novel, and I 224 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: would write another novel. And most of those early novels 225 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: got published, but they weren't very successful. They were not 226 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: big best sellers. But I suppose what happened was I 227 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: just loved the story so much that there was really 228 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: nothing else I would rather do. The range that you 229 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: write about. I followed you for many, many years, and 230 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: I'm always amazed. I mean, for example, when I think 231 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: about some of the things that you've done Night over Water, 232 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: which is a wonderfully imaginative book and just sort of 233 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: comes out of the blue. It's not derivative of anything 234 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: else you've ever written. I find you carrying us with 235 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: you with your imagination and will your imagination takes you 236 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: bomb there's a book that's true. And publishers don't always 237 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: like that, because after you've had one success, they really 238 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: want you to do the same thing again and again 239 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: once a year for the next thirty years. After I 240 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: have the Needle, which was my first success. They really 241 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: wanted me to just keep on writing World War two 242 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: spy stories, and I guess I just kept thinking of 243 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: these other ideas that I thought would make good novels, 244 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: And so when something occurs to me you mentioned Night 245 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: over Water. I was at the marine terminal at LaGuardia 246 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: Airport one day getting a plane, and at that time 247 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: I was hunting around for my next book, and I 248 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: saw the exhibition. I don't know whether they still have 249 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: it there at the Marine terminal, but I saw this 250 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: exhibition about the plane that was known as the PanAm 251 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: Clip at the flying boat that flew before the Second 252 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: World War, and that was what I saw, those pictures 253 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: of the inside of this great plane, which I only 254 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: went at about ninety miles an hour, as one of 255 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: the slowest era planes ever. And the idea that you 256 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: would get up from your seat in the plane and 257 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: go to a dining room, and then you would at night, 258 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: your seat would be turned into a bed and you 259 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: would put on your pajamas and get into bed, and 260 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: you're still flying across the Atlantic. That just seemed to 261 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: me such a romantic and seductive idea that I just 262 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: wanted to tell a story about it, and that's how 263 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: it always is with me. Given that, and given your 264 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: background writing about World War two, what draws you to 265 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages and the intricacies of building a cathedral 266 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: is it's what a remarkable break and how you focus 267 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: your attention and the amount of research you did to 268 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: bring that to life was just astonishing. Well, I, once again, 269 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: it was looking at cathedrals and going into them and 270 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: looking at the architecture and the patterns and so on, 271 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: made me think, why is this here? You know, here's 272 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: this enormous building, very beautiful, it's been here for eight 273 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: hundred years, and how did he get here? The people 274 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: of the Middle Ages, we know, were by comparison with us, 275 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: very poor. They slept on the floor, their houses were 276 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: made of wood and straw, and yet they made these 277 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: wonderful stone buildings. What drove them? These buildings cost a lot, 278 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: They were difficult to build, and you know, medieval people, 279 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: we take it for granted we could go to the 280 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: hardware store and buy a perfectly balanced hammer with a 281 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: steel head. They didn't have tools that good in the 282 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: Middle Ages. So I began to think about that notion 283 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: of these medieval people coming out of their wooden huts 284 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: in the morning and going to work and building the 285 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: most beautiful buildings in the world out of car stone. 286 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: Once again, my publishers were a little uneasy about this project, 287 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: and they said, look, we've had great success with stories 288 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: about the Second World War and about the kg B 289 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: and the spies and all this, and so Ken, now 290 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: you want to write a book about building a church 291 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages. Are you sure? But I felt 292 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: convinced that this actually could be a story that people 293 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: would remember longer than they ever remember a thriller. No 294 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: matter how good a thriller is, it's a short book. 295 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: You read it in a few days or a week, 296 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: and quite often you forget the details quite soon afterwards. 297 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: And I thought, if I wrote this book, it might be. 298 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: The model I had in mind was Gone with the Wind, 299 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 1: a historical novel that's very emotional and moving and that 300 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: people will remember long after they've read it, and let's 301 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: give them credit. My publishers said, well, okay, Ken, we're 302 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: not sure, but if that's what you want to do, 303 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: And so I went ahead and did it, and indeed 304 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: my instinct turned out to be right. When you were 305 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 1: doing the research, how long to take you jumping centuries 306 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: and jumping topics and going to what is, in many 307 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: ways of a very specialized I remember a very good 308 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: friend of mine, Joe Gaylord, was reading your book when 309 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: it first came out, and he walked up to me 310 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: and said, I can't imagine all the details that he's 311 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: mastered to get me to understand how you build a 312 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: stone building. You were totally inside Joe's head and he 313 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: was just hanging on every page. Well, I felt that 314 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: to make this story real, it would have to be 315 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: clear to readers just how the medieval people manage this 316 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: mammoth task, and so I did go into in great 317 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: detail in the research. I went into exactly how they 318 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 1: did it, how they planned, how they carved the stone, 319 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: and how they mixed the mortar and the shapes of 320 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: those arches and so on, and how they managed or yeah, 321 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: you're right. I went into it into it in great detail. 322 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: And that was because I wanted people to say, now, 323 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: I see, now I understand, as well as enjoying the story, 324 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: which has a lot of romance and a certain amount 325 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: of action, and there's jealousy and political rivalry and all 326 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But I wanted people to say, 327 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: now I understand something that I didn't understand before. I 328 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: think people like that in a book Nude. I think, 329 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: you know, you can get great drama and great entertainment 330 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: in all kinds of ways. Nowadays there are great television 331 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: dramas and great movies and plays in the theater from 332 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: a book. People want something a little more as well 333 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: as enjoying the book. They want to feel that they 334 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: gained something from it. At the end of the book, 335 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: they're a little wiser or a little more knowledgeable about something. 336 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 1: And that's why I went into such depth. You've got 337 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: to be careful about that kind of stuff, of course, 338 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: because it's important not to put information in the book 339 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: just because it's stuff that you found out in your research. 340 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: You've got to put in the information that readers will 341 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: find fascinating. You can't show off, you know, you can't 342 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: say I'm putting all this information in just to prove 343 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: that I did the research. You have to put in 344 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: stuff that they will say, oh wow, that's how it's done. 345 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: And I do have to say, as an aside, by 346 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: the way, that not only have you been successful as 347 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: a writer, but that you've had a whole series of 348 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: your books turned into a television series. And as I 349 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: understand it, you actually were a merchant in the Pillars 350 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: of the Earth when it was done as a mini series, 351 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: So you have been a man of diverse talent. Well, 352 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: you know, I was on screen in the Pillars of 353 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: the Earth for about fifteen seconds, and you know afterwards, 354 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: I waited for that oscar phone to ring and it 355 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: just didn't. So back to the day job. So let's 356 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: go back now to Pillars of the Earth. When you 357 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: were doing the research and you were imagining these people 358 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: and their lives and their time, what would you say 359 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: was the biggest surprise to you compared to way you 360 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: thought going into it. Well, let me mention two things. 361 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: One was how they measured things. Now, of course today 362 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: you measured things. You want to measure things should go 363 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: to the store and you buy a ruler or a 364 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: tape measure, and if you're a scientist, you use a 365 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: screw gage micrometer. But they didn't have any of those 366 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: things in the Middle Ages, and in fact, they didn't 367 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: have standard measures. Turns out that although they would have 368 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: used terms like a yard and a foot, they would 369 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: be different in every town, and each building site would 370 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,239 Speaker 1: have a rod of iron that told you that was 371 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: a yard, and it would be a yard would be 372 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: different from one place to another, but that didn't matter 373 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: so long as in this building everybody knows that this 374 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: is a yard, and everybody is using the same measure 375 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: for a yard. And that's how we actually get the 376 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: English expression a yard stick. When you wanted to make 377 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: sure that something was a yard, you'd go and you'd 378 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: check it with that iron rod that was a yard. 379 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: The other thing that was interesting was discovered by a 380 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: historian who actually eventually became a good friend of mine, 381 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: man called frenchman called Jean Ampere, and he did something clever. 382 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: He looked at the payroll records of building kept by 383 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: the monastery when they were building a big church, and 384 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: he just went through and counted how many female names 385 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: there were, and it turned out that the figure was 386 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: seventeen percent. And of course, we had always imagined, because 387 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: we do, that these things were done by men, and 388 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: it turns out that quite a lot of women worked 389 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: on building our great cathedrals. In fact, in that picular case, 390 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: it was seventeen percent of the workers, and it was 391 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: probably about that on all the cathedrals of Europe. And 392 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: that was first of all, that was a surprise because, 393 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: like most men, I had kind of assumed that all 394 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: the important stuff was done by men, and it was 395 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: Also it made it much more interesting for me because 396 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: I could have women characters working on the cathedrals. So 397 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: I'm curious they're dedicating literally their lives too. What is 398 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: a multi generational project. How do you think they felt 399 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: towards the building they were building. What do you think 400 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: was their sense of connectivity and their sense of imagination, 401 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: if you will, towards this thing that was coming up 402 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: out of the ground. Well, I think it would have 403 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: been a mixture of things new because of course it 404 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: was a job, and it enabled them to feed their families. 405 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,479 Speaker 1: You need work, you need to get paid because you 406 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: need to put bread on the table, so it would 407 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: have been that. But of course they realized that they 408 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: were doing something, They were involved in a task that 409 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: was different from anything else that happened in the Middle Ages. 410 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: This was the only way you could be involved in 411 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: something in the Middle Ages, which was meant to last 412 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: pretty much forever. I was recently on the roof of 413 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: a cathedral here in England called Peterborough Cathedral, and right 414 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: at the top of the cathedral they have what are 415 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: called crotchets, which are little decorative pieces of stone, I say, 416 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: little about a yard high. And some of these crotchets 417 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: had been replaced in the nineteen fifties, and when you 418 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: go up on the roof you can see that the 419 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: ones made in the nineteen fifties are much more crude 420 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: than the original crotchets. The decorative parts of the medieval 421 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: crotchets are very intricate, and where they had been replaced, 422 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: they had been replaced by much cruder and much simpler 423 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: objects which looked the same from the ground. So obviously 424 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: the workman of the nineteen fifties thought it didn't much matter. 425 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: But the medieval workman thought that the crotchets on the 426 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: roof mattered as much as every other detail of the cathedral, 427 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: because God could see it. And I think that tells 428 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: you a little about the mentality of the people who 429 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: worked on the cathedrals. Yes, they were putting bread on 430 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: the table, but they also understood that they were doing 431 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: something much more profound and significant than just building something. 432 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: They were doing something that would in fact last not 433 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: only longer than their own lifetimes, but longer than many 434 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: many lifetimes. Thank you for taking this time to be 435 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: with us today. I think you bring to any discussion 436 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: of Notre Dame or any great cathedral a unique knowledge 437 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: and a unique ability to bring it to life. And 438 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: I'm just very grateful, given everything you're doing, that you 439 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: would take the time to talk with us. Ken, It's 440 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 1: been a pleasure. Thank you very much. When we return, 441 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: I'll highlight some of the more significant historical milestones and 442 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: Notre Dame's eight hundred year history. I think back to 443 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: when I was a kid and my mom and I 444 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: went to Paris. My dad was stationed at the time 445 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: in Stuttgart, and I had a chance to just go 446 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: and wander around to see this great cathedral, to see 447 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: the various stalls along the Sun River where people sold 448 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: books and stamps, and where it was all just magic. 449 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: In a sense, I think we collectively were watching magic burn. 450 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: We were sitting, all of us around the world, looking 451 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: at the scene, this moment of horror as this great, extreme, 452 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: raordinary building had flames reaching above it as the firefighters 453 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: work desperately to save it. And I think you have 454 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: to reach inside yourself and say, why did that affect 455 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: me so much. Part of what I think is that 456 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: it's a touch with eternity. It's a sense of if 457 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: a building this great can burn like this, then what 458 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: is my life like? Or what is your life like? 459 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: Or what's America's history like? Because this is one of 460 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: those great historic monuments that's been around virtually, you know, 461 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,479 Speaker 1: for all practical purposes, for folks like us. It's been 462 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: around forever, much longer than the United States has existed. 463 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it is a symbol. This 464 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: church has seen so many things in its history and 465 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: is so much a part of our lives that I 466 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: think that it really becomes a moment to stop and 467 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: if you would to take stock to think about the 468 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: civilization you belong to look at this extraordinary witness to history. 469 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: First of all, that starts back when people believed so deeply, 470 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: were so committed to Christianity that spending a couple hundred 471 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: years building a cathedral seemed to be a reasonable thing 472 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: to do. Dedicating your life as a stonemason, or as 473 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: an architect, or just as a workman seemed a reasonable 474 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: thing to do, and people poured themselves into these great institutions. 475 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: And in France, I think it's fair to say that 476 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: Notre Dame de Paris or our Lady of Paris, really 477 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: became the center of that kind of sentiment, partially because 478 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: Paris was the center economically, it was a center educationally, 479 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: it was the center politically. It was other than an 480 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: occasional Viking raid, almost nobody actually got to Paris. Even 481 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: the English in the Hundred Years War found Paris to 482 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: be so big, in such a formidable fortress, that they 483 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: tended to fight to the west of it. They tended 484 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: to fight to the south of it. But Paris remained 485 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: sort of the center of French politics, French government, French economics, 486 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: and at the center of Paris was Notre Dame. And 487 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: so I think in that sense, Notre Dame came to 488 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: symbolize so many different things, and if you look at 489 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: its history, it's kind of fascinating in a way. This 490 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: is a great tribute to endurance. It was the center 491 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: of an unquestioned Christianity, and everybody expected to be Christian. 492 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: They understood the importance of it. And then in the 493 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: eighteenth century, beginning with the Enlightenment, there was an enormous 494 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: uprising against Christianity and a sense of moving to a 495 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: very different world. To such a different world that the 496 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: French Revolution adopted its own calendar and rejected the entire 497 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: idea of accepting what had been the Christian calendar. But 498 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: as you know from my talking about Julius, had also 499 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: been in many ways a Roman calendar. That prayer didn't 500 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: last very long, but during that period they basically ended 501 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: the religious nature of Notre Dame. And it was just 502 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: a great building in the middle of the city and 503 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: you could look at it and you could say, but 504 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: this has no great meaning. And yet for most French 505 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: who are not part of the revolution, it is said 506 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: that when they finally once Napoleon took over in Napoleon thought, okay, 507 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: the French Revolution was kind of fund but that's not 508 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: who I am, that's not what unifies France. And so 509 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: he was much more tolerant of the Church in order 510 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: to consolidate his own imperial role. And as a result 511 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: he said, look, if you want to ring the bells 512 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: once again, which the French Revolution had forbidden, but he 513 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: was happy with it. And it said that people cried, 514 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: wept with joy the first time that the bells were rung, 515 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: because it meant that once again the center of their 516 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: religion in France was alive and was vibrant. You also 517 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: have this sense of majesty if you've ever been there 518 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: and you've heard the extraordinary organ. Many years ago, somebody 519 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: said to me organs were actually designed for stone buildings, 520 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: that when you hear an organ in a wooden church, 521 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: you're not hearing the full power of a great organ. 522 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: And that's why when you would go to Notre Dame, 523 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: if you had the opportunity to actually hear the organ, 524 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: and they always had world class organists there, and we 525 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: were very fortunate that our good friend Peter Latona, the 526 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: music director at the Basilica, actually was studied for a 527 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: year in Paris. He's an organist by profession, and he 528 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: will tell you that it is one of the most 529 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: mystical and miraculous periods of his life because of just 530 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: the extraordinary the skill of the organists at Notre Dame, 531 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: the power of the organ itself. And I think in 532 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: that sense again, all of this was designed originally to 533 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: communicate the majesty of God. It's really hard to imagine nowadays, 534 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: so you have to join me for a minute and 535 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: sort of closing your eyes and putting yourself in a 536 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: different world. Imagine that you are a peasant in the 537 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: Middle Ages, and you are living in a hut. Frankly, 538 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: and much of the time you're living in a hut 539 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,239 Speaker 1: along with your farm animals during the winter, and they 540 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: keep you warm and you keep them alive. But you 541 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: don't have much of a life. You don't have television, 542 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: you don't have cable, you don't have music on a 543 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: regular basis. You don't have any of the things which 544 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: broaden our lives and make us just sort of accept 545 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: everything as normal. And so you come in from the 546 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: countryside and suddenly you're at this huge, gigantic cathedral and 547 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: you're awe struck, and it carries your eyes upward and 548 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: you go look up all the way to the steeple. 549 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: Then you walk into the cathedral and you have in 550 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: the Gothic cathedrals, this enormous open space. Now again, imagine 551 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: yourself a peasant. You've never been in a building this way, 552 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: You've never seen this kind of majesty, this kind of 553 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: glorious structure. And because the church knew that you couldn't 554 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 1: read it, put great emphasis on paintings, on frescoes, on tapestries, 555 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: on windows, so that you were surrounded all of a 556 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: sudden by all of this wonderful light and these wonderful colors, 557 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: and it captured you, and you thought this must be 558 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: a step towards what God would be like. And that 559 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: was the whole point of these cathedrals. They weren't just 560 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: big buildings, they weren't tourist attractions. They were testimonials to 561 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: the glory of God and of the opportunity of salvation. 562 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: And so when you would see on a feast day 563 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: at Eastern, I thought it was a hugely poignant moment 564 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: to have a Notre Dame burning during Holy Week and 565 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: to realize that we are now at Eastern and of rebirth, 566 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: a time of rededication, and it's so totally appropriate that 567 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: President mac Crown caught the rhythm and the spirit of 568 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: that and was dedicated immediately that night, no question, no thought. 569 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: This is a building whose foundation stone was laid by 570 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: Pope Alexander the Third in eleven sixty three. I'll think 571 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: about that that building has been there for almost a 572 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: thousand years. So people have this instinct that says this 573 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: is worth preserving, and it's worth preserving as a connection 574 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: to the larger world, as an ability to see something 575 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: bigger than yourself and to see something which is noble 576 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: and which carries all sorts of meanings. Whether you're religious 577 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: or you're not religious, there's something somehow that gets you 578 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: to reach beyond yourself. And I would suggest you, if 579 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: you've never been, when it is rebuilt, make it a 580 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: point to go, and to go quietly, because I have 581 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: discovered over the years if we'll go in there and relax, 582 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 1: sit down on a pew for a few minutes, allow 583 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: the building to absorb you, look up and look around 584 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: and get a feel for it. I mean most people 585 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 1: walk in, take two pictures, walk back out and say, hell, keV, 586 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: I've done Notre Dame. That's not the way to experience it. 587 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: And you'll see as they start rebuilding it that this 588 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: is a very complex. It's almost like a living organism. 589 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: It's an ecosystem of worship in which there are many 590 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: different small places where people can be doing a variety 591 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,919 Speaker 1: of things, and where you can go and you can 592 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: see different countries represented, different parts of Christianity represented. You 593 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 1: can have a wedding off to one side. You can 594 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: have mass in another place. You can have people practicing 595 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: song in a third place, all of this going on 596 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 1: simultaneously in this gigantic building. I think it's also important 597 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: to recognize that Paris was very fortunate in that in 598 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: World War Two it was essentially an open city. The 599 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: Allies refused to bob and the Germans, while Hitler wanted 600 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: to destroy it. In the end was not destroyed, partially 601 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,720 Speaker 1: because as senior general in charge of the city refused 602 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: to do it, and partially because the French resistance rose 603 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 1: and made it too expensive to try to destroy it. 604 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 1: And so the result was large parts of Paris remain 605 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: as they were. The other cities in Europe that were 606 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: heavily bombed were rebuilt in much more modern structures, much 607 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 1: more modern layouts. But as you walk around the island, 608 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: and as you walk around the downtown part of the 609 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: older part of Paris, you really are in a medieval city. 610 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: You really have these little side streets and all sorts 611 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: of places to go explore. That's the world of notre dominant. 612 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: One of the things I would suggest what they rebuilt it. 613 00:37:55,160 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: If you've never been before, approach it get them app 614 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: go down a couple of little side streets so that 615 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: you're surrounded by a road that is barely wide enough 616 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: for a car. You have shops right on the street. 617 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: You see all of the life around you, and then 618 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: you suddenly walk out and you see right across the 619 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: river this great building. And in a way, the caustrophobia 620 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 1: of these small streets increases the awareness of the majesty 621 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: of the building you're about to see. When we come back, 622 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: we'll look at all that needs to go into rebuilding 623 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: this great cathedral and what we can all do to help. 624 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: I think it's very important to recognize that this is 625 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: more than just a building. This is a cultural center, 626 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: a religious center, a historic center. And I think that's 627 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: why so many of us bonded together that night watching 628 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: it burn, hoping it could be saved. Impressed by the 629 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: courage of the French firefighters, the dedication they showed. The 630 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: commitment was such that fireman went in with priests saved 631 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: most of the key relics, of which the most important 632 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: the crown of Thorns, which was believed to have originally 633 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: come from Jerusalem with Constantine's mother who was touring Jerusalem 634 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: and gathering up relics and was believed to be the 635 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: original crown of thorns that Christ war on the day 636 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,879 Speaker 1: that he was crucified. But they have a whole range 637 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: of things that were saved, and in fact, I saw 638 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 1: one reference that maybe as much as eighty percent of 639 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: the art was saved from the fire. So almost a 640 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 1: miracle in and of itself. When you walk in there 641 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: and you stop and you let the building own you, 642 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: and you let yourself feel the building and feel the 643 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 1: stones and feel the space, I think at that point 644 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: you'll understand why this was so important to rebuild, why 645 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: it was so extraordinary. And I hope that a lot 646 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: of people will decide right now that they're going to 647 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: make plans when Notre Dame reopens. They're going to go 648 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: back and visit Paris. They're going to be part of 649 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: seeing and feeling and experiencing the refusal to give in. 650 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: After all, the history of Western civilization has been not 651 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 1: a peaceful, easy history. It's been a history of wars, 652 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: of plagues, problems, and of somehow surmounting them. As Faulkner 653 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: said in his Great Nobel Prize speech, that mankind will 654 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: endure and prevail and I think that spirit is what 655 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: you see, and the spirit was what President Crone represented 656 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,959 Speaker 1: when he said that they would rebuild it. And I'm 657 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: personally delighted that they're going to be committed to rebuilding it. 658 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: And I think you'll get a sense for the magic 659 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,319 Speaker 1: of building Notre Dame and the magic of building all 660 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,800 Speaker 1: these great Gothic cathedrals which are so remarkable. President McCrone 661 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,399 Speaker 1: has set the right tone on the right standard. Let's 662 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: rebuild it. Let's rebuild it quickly. They clearly need all 663 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: the help they can get. This is going to turn 664 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: out if they try to do it in five years, 665 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,839 Speaker 1: to be a very expensive project. And we have on 666 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: our news World page a site you can go to 667 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: to donate, and I encourage you if you have any 668 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 1: interest in doing so. Trust me, they're going to need 669 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,919 Speaker 1: more money than they have. They've already raised about eight 670 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 1: hundred million euros, but they're going to need much more 671 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: than that to complete this project because cathedrals are very expensive, 672 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: and if you want to complete it so it looks 673 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: like the original cathedral, that's even more expensive. But it's 674 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: worth it because five or ten years from now, you 675 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 1: and I will be able to go stand there and 676 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: relies that this great monument to a Western civilization is 677 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: once again full and complete and worth visiting. Thank you 678 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: to my guests Ken Follock. We have an extensive look 679 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: at Notre Dame, including links to Ken Follot's books and 680 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: information on how you can donate to help rebuild Notre 681 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: Dame on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld 682 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,760 Speaker 1: is produced by Westwood One. The executive producer is Debbie Myers. 683 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: Our producer is Garnsey Slump. Our editor is Robert Boroski. 684 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The art work for the 685 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. The music was composed 686 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: by Joey Salvier. Special thanks the team at Ginghish three 687 00:42:54,840 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 1: sixty and Westwood Ones, Tim Sabean and Robert Mathers. Please 688 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,800 Speaker 1: email me with your comments at newt at newtsworld dot com. 689 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to 690 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and 691 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 692 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: all about. On the next episode of Newtsworld. I'll be 693 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: co hosting Newtsworld next week with Pete Early, my co 694 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: author on my new novel Collusion. We'll be exploring the 695 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 1: intriguing and secretive world of Russian poisoning. We'll look at 696 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: the deep Russian history of using poison as a weapon, 697 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 1: along with some recent cases. I'm Newt king Rich. This 698 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: as Newtsworld