WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: Is there such a thing as a truth serum? 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.280 Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this week's s 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.920 Y s K Selex, I've chosen one on truth Serums, 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.800 which originally came out in April of two thirteen. Turns out, 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.600 well we always thought was a truth serum was actually 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:22.400 just a handful of goofballs. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff you 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:31.240 Should Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.960 welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. And there's Charles W. 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:36.239 Chuck Bryant back in the saddle again. Man, it's been 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:44.519 a while. That was a goat boy being whipped. That's you. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.440 Here's the goat boy, right. Do you remember goat boy 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.960 from Sarry Life? Yes? What was his name? I don't 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:54.959 Jim Brewer, Yeah he was goat boy, wasn't I think so? 0:00:55.720 --> 0:01:00.960 Was it called goat boy? Great? Classic SNL character? Agreed? Yeah, uh, agreed, 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:06.039 that's pretty good. Thanks. Um, how are you doing? Oh 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.920 I'm great. Man. Inject me with truth sermon, asked me, 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:11.400 and then you'll get the truth may or may not 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.080 work though, And it's not even serum, you know. Um, 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:19.399 We've got a a pretty cool case coming up where 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:23.360 this is going to be used. Uh well cool, Well, no, 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.120 but I'm saying, like, thank you for correcting me, because no, 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:30.679 it's not cool, it's interesting, sensational. Yes, And uh, this 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:32.640 is actually what made me think that we should do 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.679 something on truth serum was the James Holmes case, the Aurora, 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:40.240 Colorado batman shooter, Um, who has been saying that he's 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:44.480 insane or acting insane ever since he was caught. But 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.040 a lot of people think, maybe he's not so insane, right, 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.080 And uh, a judge just recently in the middle of 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:57.000 March approved um him to be tested under narco analysis, 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.240 which is narco interrogation, really is what it is. It's 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.760 unusual these days in the US for something like that 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.000 to happen, and a lot of folks are saying, what's 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.080 up with this judge, like are you for real? Yeah? 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:11.960 And it turns out that there is a very long history, 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.880 especially in the twentieth century, of people using what has 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:20.519 been popularly dubbed truth serum, but incorrectly dubbed truth serum 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.600 because it doesn't necessarily generate the truth or um cover 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.639 the truth. And it's not a Siah. Yeah, watery part 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.320 of coagul little blood is that right? Is that all 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.840 it is? I believe so, and I think there's a 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:35.480 plant based serra as well. But either way, none of 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.000 that is none of the truth storm drugs that they 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.120 use our serums. No, and we should probably get out 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.960 of the way right now that um LSD not a 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:50.280 truth serum or a truth drug. Uh okay, well, now 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.239 that's what I think most people think about when when 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.040 you think of being interrogated under the influence of drugs 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.160 that they give you LSD and started shouting at you. 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.800 I had no idea about this, but it reminds you. 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:06.040 You know, you harken back to the days of the polygraph. 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:09.800 When that first started, it was like, well, okay, society 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.480 is saying, what we shouldn't beat people with rubber hoses 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.000 to get the truth out of him anymore, and it's 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.040 possible that this isn't even the truth. They're just saying 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.200 what we want to hear because they want us to stop. 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:21.560 So let's try some other techniques. And as a result 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.840 you had the polygraph truth serums, which we're gonna call 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:30.400 incorrect or no, that's what they're called, basically, UM because 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:35.920 there isn't really a clinical name for him, is there UM? 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.280 I don't know n narco analytic gold drugs. Well that's 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:41.120 kind of like the Yeah, I just made that up, 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:43.360 but that's really what it is. So basically there's two 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:48.320 reasons why you would use truth serums, and they come 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:52.520 down to narco analysis and narco interrogation. And the one 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:54.720 I should say that James Holmes is going to undergo 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:57.720 is I guess kind of a combination of both, because 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:59.600 they're trying to get at the truth of a sanity 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:03.760 um and but at the same time it will be 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:08.280 interrogative because he's a suspect in a massive murder trial. 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:12.240 Although I would say that's just the psychological because the other, 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.680 the probative truth is they're trying to get a revelation 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:17.800 of a crime. Oh yeah, I guess that's true and 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.320 not necessarily their mental state. Yea. So those are those 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.200 are the two differences. Is are you trying to say, 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.200 you know, inject you and say did you steal the painting? 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.960 But yeah, that's a good art art theft podcast on 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:37.560 that or um like some sort of psychological truth that 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.599 they're trying to uncover about themselves, right uh. And that one, 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.840 as far as truth serums go, is probably the one 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:49.200 where it's the drugs will be most effective. Yeah, because 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:57.279 it's kind of unlocking like an unconscious um revelation a person, 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:01.320 like uncovering a neurosis that maybe they didn't understand that 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:04.040 they had and now it's there's some sort of catharsis 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:06.240 that these drugs have allowed to just kind of let 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.320 their guard down. Now they're they're flowing out with a 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:13.159 catharsis and they're feeling better afterward. Yeah. And most of 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:17.200 those studies to have been uh not been on like prisoners, 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.360 but maybe volunteers and things, so it's a more friendly environment. 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:22.840 So maybe they get further that way. But we'll get 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:24.719 to all that, all right, So let's let's talk about 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:29.039 the the history of this chuck um, they're not so old, 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:32.040 the idea of using drugs to get the truth out 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.960 of somebody. And actually there was a Texas doctor doctor 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:39.919 house for real, Yeah, the real doctor house house. He 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:44.040 uh he was a Dallas, Texas doctor um and obstetrician 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.000 and uh back when he was delivering babies. They were 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:53.440 using a combination of chloroform, morphine and a scope al amine, 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:55.640 which you may have heard of before if you've ever 0:05:55.680 --> 0:06:01.720 taken um uh motion sickness drugs that patches opolamin Yeah. Uh, 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.719 and he noticed that when women were on this combination 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.640 of drugs, they tended to be very candid and forthright 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:11.720 u with stuff. Sometimes they didn't have anything to do 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.520 with the child birthring process. And doctor House said, hey, 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.440 I wonder if you could use this on criminals. Yeah, 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.000 and truthful that's the most important part. Well, yeah, they 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:24.559 found out that they were accurate, and so yeah, he said, 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:29.400 you know what, who's who's not forthcoming and who doesn't 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.880 tell the truth are lying lying criminals, right, so maybe 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:36.400 we should and get them pregnant and then give them 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.960 scopeful a mean, actually not to get them pregnant. And uh, 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.200 he sort of resisted the whole truth storm thing. Uh. 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:48.359 Supposedly that came about in the Los Angeles record was 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:51.479 when it was first used. But yeah, he eventually would 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.200 come around and embrace that term and use it himself, 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:58.479 because you know, once things take hold in the public consciousness, 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.200 you just sort of have to give in. Yeah, and 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.480 he he in that way kind of resembles though that 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:06.479 the inventor of the polygraph, for the guy who brought 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:11.000 all these disparate parts of the polygraph together. William Molton Marston, 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:13.680 the guy invented Wonder Woman, just kind of became a 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:17.920 promoter of his law enforcement tool. Yeah, but he found 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.720 out that it worked the first time, not by getting 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.840 a bunch of guilty guys found guilty, but of a 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:28.640 study with three men who said they were innocent. Uh, 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:32.760 he gave them the scope l amine Um, I guess, 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.960 interrogated them, found that they still said no, I'm innocent, 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.000 all three of them, and then they later got off 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.080 even though like all the evidence was it was against them. 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:43.280 They didn't get off because of the truth serum. That 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.600 was a separate study. He just kind of compared the 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.960 two and said, Hey, this is gonna work like Gangbusters. Yeah, 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.920 and despite that, I guess sort of success. Um. I 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.880 guess he certainly touted it as such. But um, there 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.320 haven't been a whole lot of studies on scope amin um. 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:00.960 Just a few different cases as they've actually had, like 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:07.000 police interrogations using scope amine. And interestingly, and I totally 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.520 by this because it kind of harkens back to old movies. 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.680 Just the threat of it was sometimes enough to induce 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.280 like a confession, and that reminds me the movies of 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:17.200 the guy approaching like with a needle in his hand, 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:19.640 scorting it in the air and saying you, you know, 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:21.840 if you have as of making a talk, and also 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:23.760 they go, well screw it, I'm just I don't want 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:25.800 that junk. And I wonder if it's if it's because 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.360 they had committed so many crimes that they hadn't been 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.280 caught for they didn't want to implicate themselves in a 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:33.400 bunch of other ones, and they were just being utilitarian 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:35.439 saying I'll give you this one. I bet it was 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.280 more they were just like you know, it became a 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.520 big thing in the public consciousness, like true storm, and 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:42.640 so they didn't know what was going on right. Well, also, 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.320 if they were using it um enough that it had 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.880 gotten out how unpleasant the whole experience was, maybe that 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.640 was what they were protecting themselves against because um, there 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:58.319 were a lot of psychological um effects, including falling asleep, UM, 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.280 strong with that, babbling what's wrong with that? Becoming delusional 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:07.600 and having hallucinations um. And then the physiological effects far 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:13.800 outlasted the psychological effects, and you would have probably dry socket. 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.800 I get the impression of the mouth. Your mouth was 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.320 so dry that like your your saliva glance dried up 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.400 to which is extraordinarily painful. Yeah, and that they would 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.120 actually use that in surgery too, because they wanted you 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.199 to have dry mouth form surgery. But also like headaches, 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.360 rapid heartbeat, board vision. It didn't last long as a 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.200 truth storm because of these reasons. It didn't despite doctor 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.880 House's efforts that did kind of follow the wayside. But 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:44.280 if you are um interested in scopeal, I mean, there's uh, 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:49.280 basically a legend that Colombian drug gangs use this. If 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.400 you go down, yeah and you order a coke, you 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.079 better watch them pour it because they will dose you 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:58.160 with scope. They being Colombian drug gangs, they're living in 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.760 the nineteen twenties. Yeah, and they I guess one of 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:06.240 the effects that it has is um amnesia. And but 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:10.200 you're still conscious and moving around and hanging out and 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:12.160 using your A T M card to get the money 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.559 for them because you're very forthcoming with whatever is asked 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.839 of you. It sounds like one of those things like 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.959 the old White Traveling wives tales, like it definitely does 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:23.880 sound like that, and I'm sure it is largely but 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.239 I read a Vice magazine article on it and supposedly 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.079 the author went down to Colombian found all this stuff 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.240 out firsthand. It was pretty opening. Have you ever seen 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:37.080 Flirting with disaster? Yeah? Remember that Mary Tyler Moore had 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.560 the story about on the highways, they'll bump you in 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.360 the car and then get you to pull over and 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:43.679 rob you. And then they get bumped on the highway 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:45.320 and they think it's there being rob but they're not. 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.240 I don't remember her in that. Yeah, she was the 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.640 adoptive mother of the Ben Stellar character. Yeah, she's great. 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.120 Um so scope mean ex scope means out. Up. Next, 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:01.520 we have everyone's favorite truth surum barbite wits. And they 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.240 were discovered not barbiturous, but they to use them like. 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:09.400 This was discovered by accident by Arthur Lovenhart and uh 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.760 he was at the University of Wisconsin, Go Badgers, and 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:17.679 he was doing some experimenting with respiratory stimulants and injected 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.640 a dude who was catatonic, mute, and rigid, and all 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.880 of a sudden he loosens up, opens up his eyes 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:29.040 and talks a little bit, and they think, wow, you know, 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.160 this could be a big deal. This seems like this 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:34.840 drug woke this guy up, and we are getting information 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:36.880 out of him about his life. Maybe we can use 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.520 that as a truth term. So they started to UM. 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:45.040 A guy named Clarence W. Muhlberger ahead of the Michigan 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:49.720 Crime Detective Detection Laboratory and East Lansing started using barbiturates. 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.120 And these are UM. If you hear of truth serum 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.400 being used in any narco interrogation, including James Holmes, is 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:01.520 UM you you're you're there talking about the use of barbiturates. 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:03.559 These are the only ones who have been proven to 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:09.720 even possibly uncover some sort of truth in an interrogation. UM. 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:16.320 So you've got uh amma barbital, thiopental and sicco barbaital 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.160 and UM. Any of these three a k. Yellow jackets, 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.720 pink ladies, goofballs, red devils, all those guys, any of 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.120 them should be in the hands of an expert capable 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.480 of um producing some sort of truth or at least 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.719 get somebody talking. And they aren't quite sure how, but 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:39.000 they think possibly that the cerebrum UH is detached. The cerebrum, 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:43.120 which monitors the higher functioning of the cerebellum, is detached, 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.520 and so doesn't say things like you don't want to 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.160 say that you should probably stop talking now. That's what 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.120 they think is happening. So they have used those with 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.920 some success, uh, anecdotally or I guess not anecdotally, but 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.360 in experiments. But they still have the battle of actually 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:04.520 using them in an investigation because courts aren't prone to allow, 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.040 you know, a confession if you were doped up. It depends. 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.040 I mean, this judge in the James Holmes Aurora, Colorado 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.280 trial said, go to it. I signed off on it, 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.320 which means that it should be it should be admissible 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.719 in that judge's courtroom. You know, well, that's not a 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.520 confession though, that's they're looking for his psychological wellness. Again, 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:26.920 it depends, and I kind of have I've been thinking 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:28.880 about what you're saying. I don't. I don't know, because 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:33.439 they right, But is he faking? Is he malingering? And 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:36.320 this is how how barbiturates have been used as truth 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.440 rooms in the past. Um one of the first cases, 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.880 one of the first studies, was carried out by a 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:45.240 couple of people named Gerson and Victor Off and they 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:50.600 use sodium amatol to interview seventeen suspective malingers at Fort Dix, 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.640 New Jersey, basically some uh, some army guys who were 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:56.840 thought to just be lazy and shiftless and faking an 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.839 injury so they didn't have to do army stuff anymore. Right, 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:04.559 So they gave these guys sodium amatal and they found that, Um, 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:09.880 they were a forthcoming, seemingly against their will about their 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:14.640 conditions about faking it or not right, that is true. Uh. 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:16.240 They did not tell them they were going to be 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:18.160 taken as they sprung it on him. Yeah, like a 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.560 minute before. Yeah. And they interviewed them before they took 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.640 the amatal at all by psychiatrists, So I think they 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.160 wanted to get just a comparison. I guess. I don't 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:28.840 know if you call it the control because it was 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.640 the same people, but at least a control interview. Then 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.840 they dosed them up and they said they had no 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:40.280 no saying this. They had to do it. That's right, Um, 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.560 and it different. The difference between that and the therapeutic 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.960 is who wrote this? Do we have an author's name? 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:52.560 His name he works for the CIA, is George Memorrell. 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.920 So Mr Memorrell points out that the setting and the 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:58.600 type of patients and the kind of truth is going 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.600 to make all the difference. So it depends on what 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.720 you're looking for and what kind of setting, because, like 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.720 I pointed out earlier, when it was like student volunteers, 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.360 it's way more friendly. And a lot of them reported like, oh, 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:11.840 I feel you fork, and this is great, I'll tell 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.280 you whatever you want, not criminals who are hiding a crime. Yeah. 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:20.720 So um Bemor points out that the rapport between the 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:26.280 interviewer and the interviewee is extremely important and important anyway, 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.920 you know. Yeah, and that one of the flaws, or 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.360 one of the significant points about that Fort Dick's interview 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:36.120 um Or experiment was that these people still fessed up 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.400 to being the lingers, even though there was a hostile 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.320 attitude towards the interviewer, because they didn't have any choice 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:44.920 in the matter and the guy sprung it on them. Yeah, 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.720 and they also manipulated them. And I think this is 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.440 one of the reasons that I didn't find any cases 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:56.600 where the court had actually admitted a confession drug induced confession. No. 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.760 I mean I saw sorts of uses, but never one 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.080 said all right, we put the scot on drugs and 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:04.520 he confessed and we can use that. Did you find 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.320 the Yeah, there's a in in the eighties of New 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:11.240 jerseyman shot his ex girlfriend at point blank range. Um 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.000 and he uh said that he had seen the devil 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.520 when he did it. Uh, And he used a NARCO 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.640 interview to basically have his sentence cut in half and 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.360 it worked. But again, that was psychological wellness. That wasn't 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:30.720 confessing to a crime even right, No, that they he 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.760 was guilty. There was psychological wellness or what I'm saying 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:40.240 a single case where the confession under a drug was allowed, 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.960 So I see what you're saying. And yeah, it also 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.000 said that the judge is um judge didn't allow any 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:50.160 use of the words truth, serum, or um or barbiturate 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.800 or anything like that. But the psychologists and psychiatrists who 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.280 gave their opinion of this guy were allowed to use 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:01.400 that NARCO interview to help form their opinions exactly. But yeah, yes, 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.480 so I guess it is just kind of um a 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.240 tool that you can't use in court, but you could 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.720 use to kind of further explore other evidence, right well. 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:12.320 And one of the reasons, which is what I was 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:15.959 getting to, was that the they would manipulate people like 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:18.800 when these soldiers were coming out of the state to 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.320 a more fully conscious state. They would lie to them 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.560 sometimes and say, hey, you already confessed like all this 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:29.119 stuff like in zero dark thirty. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:33.120 you have amnesia, you don't form any memories. You're physically 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:37.240 incapable of forming memories when you're under the influence of 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.920 barbiturous at a certain point. Yeah. They think they've used 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.920 this before on terror suspects, like in the eighties. And uh, 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.080 of course it was a big part of mk Ultra, 0:17:46.320 --> 0:18:17.800 our favorite sure government program of all time. H Um, So, 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.360 I guess we should say, what what? There's different stages 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:25.000 to being under the influence of barbiturates, right, there's the 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:29.840 sedative stage. There's unconsciousness where you are hyperactive but you're unconscious, 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:34.119 but you're you got the Jimmy legs. Uh, there's unconsciousness 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.159 without reflex even anxious stimuli. And then the last one 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.840 is death. So uh, I can't help out at that point, right. 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:43.800 And you can also see why you would want to 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:48.840 have a skilled physician president at this interrogation because this 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.840 is a possibility which killing somebody. Um with using it. 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.760 Sure you can't just like the Joe cop can't administer 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.000 this stuff, right, And Joe cop even if he could, 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.200 couldn't just give you pills. This has to be done 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:05.200 through an injection. And what they do is they take 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.360 you into the sedative stage, which can be um divided 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.919 into three planes. Uh, well, bemoral does at least. Plane 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.919 one is there's no really obvious effect. Plane two is cloudiness, calmness, 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.840 you're kind of a little high. You forget everything, yes, 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:22.520 but you still kind of have your wits about you, 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.080 is from what I can tell. Plane three slurge, slurred 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.800 speech like that, you're right, I'm on the third plane 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.640 man um old thought patterns are disrupted. You have an 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.640 inability to integrate or learn new patterns. Also four memories, 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.080 poor coordination, and you're unaware of painful stimuli. And this 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.120 is what they call the psychiatric work stage. They get 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.760 you to this stage, which only lasts for like five 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:50.720 or ten minutes, and then well, I'm sorry, they get 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:54.040 you to unconsciousness, that first stage of unconsciousness, and then 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:56.200 as you come back out of it, you pass through 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.200 that third stage and they started asking you questions. Then 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:01.520 as you start to become more and more conscious, they 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.000 inject you again and make you unconscious, and then you 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:05.399 come back out of it, and they may do this, 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:09.040 like several times there was one psychotic prisoner who was 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:13.359 given a graham and a half of barbiturous and um 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:15.960 over the course of this interview. So I mean, that's 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.480 that's that's probably a pretty long interview that the guy underwent, 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.520 and that's a lot of barbituous you know, well, yeah, 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.520 but that and that's one of the problems. These are 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.520 heavy drugs and like the back to the Fort Dick soldiers, 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.600 some of them experienced delirium and fantasies and delusions and 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.199 said that they have kids that they didn't have and 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.880 that I'm gonna kill my stepfather who was already dead. 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.440 So it's kind of like sort of just throw it 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.520 all out the window if at that point, you know, well, 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:46.600 they don't know what's the truth and what's not exactly, 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:50.080 So I guess what they'll do is they'll put you 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:52.159 into sleep, bring you out, and ask you questions, and 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:55.760 they probably write down everything you said, and then you 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.320 they'll go back in fact check that kind of stuff 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:00.800 and see what they can use against you or or 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.560 in addition to probably as you're coming out. Finally at 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.800 the end of the interview, yeah, there there may be 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:10.159 some things that they know. Like if they suspect you 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:13.240 of something and you say something that implicates you, they 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.159 they'll they'll probably work that up pretty hard when you 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.880 have no memory of it, or they'll just lie and say, yeah, 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:20.760 you were you admitted to a lot of stuff. Do 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:22.880 you want to talk a little more about it exactly? 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:26.679 And you think you have you ever? Have you ever 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:28.320 been with you me when she's coming out of like 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.840 twilight sleep for a procedure or anything. No, she's she's 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.200 been there for me. That's good stuff. Yeah, that's where 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:35.960 you get the good stuff. Yeah, if if you ever 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:40.000 do have some questions ready, um or your tape recorder, 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:42.120 Like Emily had to go under not too long ago, 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:44.919 and uh, I went in and I was I was 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:46.879 like typing everything she was saying to me because I 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:48.879 wanted to read it to her later. At funny, she 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:51.840 thought they were throwing her a party and um, because 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:53.800 they had like the curtain that they pulled around the 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.520 hospital bed, you know, and she thought that they were 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.399 decorating for her party. And I wish I remembered everything 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:01.560 she said as real funny and then you know, when 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:02.919 I have my tooth done. I said all kinds of 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:05.920 crazy stuff to the doctors. Yeah, I'm sure that's the 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.439 best part of their day. Are the recordings of that? No, 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:10.440 I don't think so. You may records me when I'm 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:13.960 talking in my sleep. Yeah, it's really intrusive, man, And 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:15.639 then she'll play it for me the next morning and 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:18.880 laugh and laugh, and you'll delete it. No, she's got 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:22.200 it all on tape still. Really, yeah, I would get 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:23.919 rid of that stuff. I'm trying to. I don't know 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:27.159 where she keeps it. Um. All right, So you pointed 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:29.840 out one thing that they actually did mention in the 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.960 article too, is that persistent and careful questioning is the 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:36.440 only way that you're going to reduce these ambiguities that 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.320 are going flying around like. It's not just like a 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:43.560 regular interrogation. You have to understand that this person is 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:47.160 heavily drugged and you gotta weed through a bunch of 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:49.159 stuff to get to what may or may not be 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:54.159 the truth. And here's the big thing about using NARCO interviews, 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:59.840 narco analytical interviews. If you're a skilled interrogator, you should 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:03.919 be able to get all this from the same person 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:06.200 without the use of drugs. Well, that's what they say 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:08.480