1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, it's me Josh and for this week's s 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Y s K Selex, I've chosen one on truth Serums, 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: which originally came out in April of two thirteen. Turns out, 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: well we always thought was a truth serum was actually 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: just a handful of goofballs. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff you 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: Should Know from House Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and 7 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. And there's Charles W. 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant back in the saddle again. Man, it's been 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: a while. That was a goat boy being whipped. That's you. 10 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: Here's the goat boy, right. Do you remember goat boy 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: from Sarry Life? Yes? What was his name? I don't 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: Jim Brewer, Yeah he was goat boy, wasn't I think so? 13 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: Was it called goat boy? Great? Classic SNL character? Agreed? Yeah, uh, agreed, 14 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: that's pretty good. Thanks. Um, how are you doing? Oh 15 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: I'm great. Man. Inject me with truth sermon, asked me, 16 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: and then you'll get the truth may or may not 17 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: work though, And it's not even serum, you know. Um, 18 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: We've got a a pretty cool case coming up where 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: this is going to be used. Uh well cool, Well, no, 20 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: but I'm saying, like, thank you for correcting me, because no, 21 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: it's not cool, it's interesting, sensational. Yes, And uh, this 22 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: is actually what made me think that we should do 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: something on truth serum was the James Holmes case, the Aurora, 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: Colorado batman shooter, Um, who has been saying that he's 25 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: insane or acting insane ever since he was caught. But 26 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people think, maybe he's not so insane, right, 27 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: And uh, a judge just recently in the middle of 28 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: March approved um him to be tested under narco analysis, 29 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: which is narco interrogation, really is what it is. It's 30 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: unusual these days in the US for something like that 31 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: to happen, and a lot of folks are saying, what's 32 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: up with this judge, like are you for real? Yeah? 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: And it turns out that there is a very long history, 34 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: especially in the twentieth century, of people using what has 35 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 1: been popularly dubbed truth serum, but incorrectly dubbed truth serum 36 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: because it doesn't necessarily generate the truth or um cover 37 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: the truth. And it's not a Siah. Yeah, watery part 38 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: of coagul little blood is that right? Is that all 39 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: it is? I believe so, and I think there's a 40 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: plant based serra as well. But either way, none of 41 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: that is none of the truth storm drugs that they 42 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: use our serums. No, and we should probably get out 43 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: of the way right now that um LSD not a 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: truth serum or a truth drug. Uh okay, well, now 45 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 1: that's what I think most people think about when when 46 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: you think of being interrogated under the influence of drugs 47 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: that they give you LSD and started shouting at you. 48 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: I had no idea about this, but it reminds you. 49 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: You know, you harken back to the days of the polygraph. 50 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: When that first started, it was like, well, okay, society 51 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: is saying, what we shouldn't beat people with rubber hoses 52 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: to get the truth out of him anymore, and it's 53 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: possible that this isn't even the truth. They're just saying 54 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: what we want to hear because they want us to stop. 55 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: So let's try some other techniques. And as a result 56 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: you had the polygraph truth serums, which we're gonna call 57 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: incorrect or no, that's what they're called, basically, UM because 58 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: there isn't really a clinical name for him, is there UM? 59 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: I don't know n narco analytic gold drugs. Well that's 60 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: kind of like the Yeah, I just made that up, 61 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: but that's really what it is. So basically there's two 62 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: reasons why you would use truth serums, and they come 63 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: down to narco analysis and narco interrogation. And the one 64 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: I should say that James Holmes is going to undergo 65 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: is I guess kind of a combination of both, because 66 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: they're trying to get at the truth of a sanity 67 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: um and but at the same time it will be 68 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: interrogative because he's a suspect in a massive murder trial. 69 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: Although I would say that's just the psychological because the other, 70 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: the probative truth is they're trying to get a revelation 71 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: of a crime. Oh yeah, I guess that's true and 72 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: not necessarily their mental state. Yea. So those are those 73 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: are the two differences. Is are you trying to say, 74 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: you know, inject you and say did you steal the painting? 75 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's a good art art theft podcast on 76 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: that or um like some sort of psychological truth that 77 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: they're trying to uncover about themselves, right uh. And that one, 78 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: as far as truth serums go, is probably the one 79 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: where it's the drugs will be most effective. Yeah, because 80 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: it's kind of unlocking like an unconscious um revelation a person, 81 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: like uncovering a neurosis that maybe they didn't understand that 82 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: they had and now it's there's some sort of catharsis 83 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: that these drugs have allowed to just kind of let 84 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: their guard down. Now they're they're flowing out with a 85 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: catharsis and they're feeling better afterward. Yeah. And most of 86 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: those studies to have been uh not been on like prisoners, 87 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: but maybe volunteers and things, so it's a more friendly environment. 88 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: So maybe they get further that way. But we'll get 89 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: to all that, all right, So let's let's talk about 90 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 1: the the history of this chuck um, they're not so old, 91 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: the idea of using drugs to get the truth out 92 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: of somebody. And actually there was a Texas doctor doctor 93 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 1: house for real, Yeah, the real doctor house house. He 94 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: uh he was a Dallas, Texas doctor um and obstetrician 95 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: and uh back when he was delivering babies. They were 96 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: using a combination of chloroform, morphine and a scope al amine, 97 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: which you may have heard of before if you've ever 98 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: taken um uh motion sickness drugs that patches opolamin Yeah. Uh, 99 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: and he noticed that when women were on this combination 100 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: of drugs, they tended to be very candid and forthright 101 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: u with stuff. Sometimes they didn't have anything to do 102 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: with the child birthring process. And doctor House said, hey, 103 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could use this on criminals. Yeah, 104 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: and truthful that's the most important part. Well, yeah, they 105 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,559 Speaker 1: found out that they were accurate, and so yeah, he said, 106 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: you know what, who's who's not forthcoming and who doesn't 107 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: tell the truth are lying lying criminals, right, so maybe 108 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: we should and get them pregnant and then give them 109 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: scopeful a mean, actually not to get them pregnant. And uh, 110 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: he sort of resisted the whole truth storm thing. Uh. 111 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: Supposedly that came about in the Los Angeles record was 112 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: when it was first used. But yeah, he eventually would 113 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: come around and embrace that term and use it himself, 114 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: because you know, once things take hold in the public consciousness, 115 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: you just sort of have to give in. Yeah, and 116 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: he he in that way kind of resembles though that 117 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: the inventor of the polygraph, for the guy who brought 118 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: all these disparate parts of the polygraph together. William Molton Marston, 119 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: the guy invented Wonder Woman, just kind of became a 120 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: promoter of his law enforcement tool. Yeah, but he found 121 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: out that it worked the first time, not by getting 122 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of guilty guys found guilty, but of a 123 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: study with three men who said they were innocent. Uh, 124 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: he gave them the scope l amine Um, I guess, 125 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: interrogated them, found that they still said no, I'm innocent, 126 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: all three of them, and then they later got off 127 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: even though like all the evidence was it was against them. 128 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: They didn't get off because of the truth serum. That 129 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: was a separate study. He just kind of compared the 130 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: two and said, Hey, this is gonna work like Gangbusters. Yeah, 131 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: and despite that, I guess sort of success. Um. I 132 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: guess he certainly touted it as such. But um, there 133 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: haven't been a whole lot of studies on scope amin um. 134 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: Just a few different cases as they've actually had, like 135 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: police interrogations using scope amine. And interestingly, and I totally 136 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: by this because it kind of harkens back to old movies. 137 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: Just the threat of it was sometimes enough to induce 138 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: like a confession, and that reminds me the movies of 139 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: the guy approaching like with a needle in his hand, 140 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: scorting it in the air and saying you, you know, 141 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: if you have as of making a talk, and also 142 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: they go, well screw it, I'm just I don't want 143 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: that junk. And I wonder if it's if it's because 144 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: they had committed so many crimes that they hadn't been 145 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: caught for they didn't want to implicate themselves in a 146 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: bunch of other ones, and they were just being utilitarian 147 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: saying I'll give you this one. I bet it was 148 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: more they were just like you know, it became a 149 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: big thing in the public consciousness, like true storm, and 150 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: so they didn't know what was going on right. Well, also, 151 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: if they were using it um enough that it had 152 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: gotten out how unpleasant the whole experience was, maybe that 153 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: was what they were protecting themselves against because um, there 154 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: were a lot of psychological um effects, including falling asleep, UM, 155 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: strong with that, babbling what's wrong with that? Becoming delusional 156 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: and having hallucinations um. And then the physiological effects far 157 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: outlasted the psychological effects, and you would have probably dry socket. 158 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: I get the impression of the mouth. Your mouth was 159 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: so dry that like your your saliva glance dried up 160 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: to which is extraordinarily painful. Yeah, and that they would 161 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: actually use that in surgery too, because they wanted you 162 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 1: to have dry mouth form surgery. But also like headaches, 163 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: rapid heartbeat, board vision. It didn't last long as a 164 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: truth storm because of these reasons. It didn't despite doctor 165 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: House's efforts that did kind of follow the wayside. But 166 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: if you are um interested in scopeal, I mean, there's uh, 167 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: basically a legend that Colombian drug gangs use this. If 168 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: you go down, yeah and you order a coke, you 169 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: better watch them pour it because they will dose you 170 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: with scope. They being Colombian drug gangs, they're living in 171 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. Yeah, and they I guess one of 172 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: the effects that it has is um amnesia. And but 173 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: you're still conscious and moving around and hanging out and 174 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: using your A T M card to get the money 175 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: for them because you're very forthcoming with whatever is asked 176 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 1: of you. It sounds like one of those things like 177 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 1: the old White Traveling wives tales, like it definitely does 178 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: sound like that, and I'm sure it is largely but 179 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,239 Speaker 1: I read a Vice magazine article on it and supposedly 180 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: the author went down to Colombian found all this stuff 181 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: out firsthand. It was pretty opening. Have you ever seen 182 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: Flirting with disaster? Yeah? Remember that Mary Tyler Moore had 183 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: the story about on the highways, they'll bump you in 184 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: the car and then get you to pull over and 185 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: rob you. And then they get bumped on the highway 186 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: and they think it's there being rob but they're not. 187 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: I don't remember her in that. Yeah, she was the 188 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: adoptive mother of the Ben Stellar character. Yeah, she's great. 189 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: Um so scope mean ex scope means out. Up. Next, 190 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: we have everyone's favorite truth surum barbite wits. And they 191 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: were discovered not barbiturous, but they to use them like. 192 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: This was discovered by accident by Arthur Lovenhart and uh 193 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: he was at the University of Wisconsin, Go Badgers, and 194 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: he was doing some experimenting with respiratory stimulants and injected 195 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: a dude who was catatonic, mute, and rigid, and all 196 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: of a sudden he loosens up, opens up his eyes 197 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: and talks a little bit, and they think, wow, you know, 198 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: this could be a big deal. This seems like this 199 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: drug woke this guy up, and we are getting information 200 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: out of him about his life. Maybe we can use 201 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: that as a truth term. So they started to UM. 202 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: A guy named Clarence W. Muhlberger ahead of the Michigan 203 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: Crime Detective Detection Laboratory and East Lansing started using barbiturates. 204 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: And these are UM. If you hear of truth serum 205 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: being used in any narco interrogation, including James Holmes, is 206 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: UM you you're you're there talking about the use of barbiturates. 207 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: These are the only ones who have been proven to 208 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: even possibly uncover some sort of truth in an interrogation. UM. 209 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: So you've got uh amma barbital, thiopental and sicco barbaital 210 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: and UM. Any of these three a k. Yellow jackets, 211 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: pink ladies, goofballs, red devils, all those guys, any of 212 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: them should be in the hands of an expert capable 213 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: of um producing some sort of truth or at least 214 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,719 Speaker 1: get somebody talking. And they aren't quite sure how, but 215 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: they think possibly that the cerebrum UH is detached. The cerebrum, 216 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: which monitors the higher functioning of the cerebellum, is detached, 217 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: and so doesn't say things like you don't want to 218 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: say that you should probably stop talking now. That's what 219 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: they think is happening. So they have used those with 220 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: some success, uh, anecdotally or I guess not anecdotally, but 221 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: in experiments. But they still have the battle of actually 222 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: using them in an investigation because courts aren't prone to allow, 223 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, a confession if you were doped up. It depends. 224 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: I mean, this judge in the James Holmes Aurora, Colorado 225 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: trial said, go to it. I signed off on it, 226 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: which means that it should be it should be admissible 227 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 1: in that judge's courtroom. You know, well, that's not a 228 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: confession though, that's they're looking for his psychological wellness. Again, 229 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: it depends, and I kind of have I've been thinking 230 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: about what you're saying. I don't. I don't know, because 231 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,439 Speaker 1: they right, But is he faking? Is he malingering? And 232 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: this is how how barbiturates have been used as truth 233 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: rooms in the past. Um one of the first cases, 234 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: one of the first studies, was carried out by a 235 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: couple of people named Gerson and Victor Off and they 236 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: use sodium amatol to interview seventeen suspective malingers at Fort Dix, 237 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: New Jersey, basically some uh, some army guys who were 238 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: thought to just be lazy and shiftless and faking an 239 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 1: injury so they didn't have to do army stuff anymore. Right, 240 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: So they gave these guys sodium amatal and they found that, Um, 241 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: they were a forthcoming, seemingly against their will about their 242 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: conditions about faking it or not right, that is true. Uh. 243 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: They did not tell them they were going to be 244 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: taken as they sprung it on him. Yeah, like a 245 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: minute before. Yeah. And they interviewed them before they took 246 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: the amatal at all by psychiatrists, So I think they 247 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: wanted to get just a comparison. I guess. I don't 248 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: know if you call it the control because it was 249 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: the same people, but at least a control interview. Then 250 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: they dosed them up and they said they had no 251 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: no saying this. They had to do it. That's right, Um, 252 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: and it different. The difference between that and the therapeutic 253 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: is who wrote this? Do we have an author's name? 254 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: His name he works for the CIA, is George Memorrell. 255 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: So Mr Memorrell points out that the setting and the 256 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: type of patients and the kind of truth is going 257 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: to make all the difference. So it depends on what 258 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: you're looking for and what kind of setting, because, like 259 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: I pointed out earlier, when it was like student volunteers, 260 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: it's way more friendly. And a lot of them reported like, oh, 261 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: I feel you fork, and this is great, I'll tell 262 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: you whatever you want, not criminals who are hiding a crime. Yeah. 263 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: So um Bemor points out that the rapport between the 264 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: interviewer and the interviewee is extremely important and important anyway, 265 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, and that one of the flaws, or 266 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: one of the significant points about that Fort Dick's interview 267 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: um Or experiment was that these people still fessed up 268 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: to being the lingers, even though there was a hostile 269 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: attitude towards the interviewer, because they didn't have any choice 270 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: in the matter and the guy sprung it on them. Yeah, 271 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: and they also manipulated them. And I think this is 272 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that I didn't find any cases 273 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: where the court had actually admitted a confession drug induced confession. No. 274 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: I mean I saw sorts of uses, but never one 275 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: said all right, we put the scot on drugs and 276 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: he confessed and we can use that. Did you find 277 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: the Yeah, there's a in in the eighties of New 278 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: jerseyman shot his ex girlfriend at point blank range. Um 279 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: and he uh said that he had seen the devil 280 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: when he did it. Uh, And he used a NARCO 281 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: interview to basically have his sentence cut in half and 282 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: it worked. But again, that was psychological wellness. That wasn't 283 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: confessing to a crime even right, No, that they he 284 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: was guilty. There was psychological wellness or what I'm saying 285 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: a single case where the confession under a drug was allowed, 286 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: So I see what you're saying. And yeah, it also 287 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: said that the judge is um judge didn't allow any 288 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: use of the words truth, serum, or um or barbiturate 289 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: or anything like that. But the psychologists and psychiatrists who 290 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: gave their opinion of this guy were allowed to use 291 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: that NARCO interview to help form their opinions exactly. But yeah, yes, 292 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: so I guess it is just kind of um a 293 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: tool that you can't use in court, but you could 294 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: use to kind of further explore other evidence, right well. 295 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons, which is what I was 296 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,959 Speaker 1: getting to, was that the they would manipulate people like 297 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: when these soldiers were coming out of the state to 298 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: a more fully conscious state. They would lie to them 299 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: sometimes and say, hey, you already confessed like all this 300 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: stuff like in zero dark thirty. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because 301 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: you have amnesia, you don't form any memories. You're physically 302 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: incapable of forming memories when you're under the influence of 303 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: barbiturous at a certain point. Yeah. They think they've used 304 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: this before on terror suspects, like in the eighties. And uh, 305 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: of course it was a big part of mk Ultra, 306 00:17:46,320 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: our favorite sure government program of all time. H Um, So, 307 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: I guess we should say, what what? There's different stages 308 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: to being under the influence of barbiturates, right, there's the 309 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: sedative stage. There's unconsciousness where you are hyperactive but you're unconscious, 310 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: but you're you got the Jimmy legs. Uh, there's unconsciousness 311 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: without reflex even anxious stimuli. And then the last one 312 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: is death. So uh, I can't help out at that point, right. 313 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: And you can also see why you would want to 314 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: have a skilled physician president at this interrogation because this 315 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: is a possibility which killing somebody. Um with using it. 316 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: Sure you can't just like the Joe cop can't administer 317 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: this stuff, right, And Joe cop even if he could, 318 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: couldn't just give you pills. This has to be done 319 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: through an injection. And what they do is they take 320 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: you into the sedative stage, which can be um divided 321 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 1: into three planes. Uh, well, bemoral does at least. Plane 322 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: one is there's no really obvious effect. Plane two is cloudiness, calmness, 323 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: you're kind of a little high. You forget everything, yes, 324 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: but you still kind of have your wits about you, 325 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: is from what I can tell. Plane three slurge, slurred 326 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: speech like that, you're right, I'm on the third plane 327 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: man um old thought patterns are disrupted. You have an 328 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: inability to integrate or learn new patterns. Also four memories, 329 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: poor coordination, and you're unaware of painful stimuli. And this 330 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: is what they call the psychiatric work stage. They get 331 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: you to this stage, which only lasts for like five 332 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: or ten minutes, and then well, I'm sorry, they get 333 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: you to unconsciousness, that first stage of unconsciousness, and then 334 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: as you come back out of it, you pass through 335 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: that third stage and they started asking you questions. Then 336 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: as you start to become more and more conscious, they 337 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: inject you again and make you unconscious, and then you 338 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: come back out of it, and they may do this, 339 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: like several times there was one psychotic prisoner who was 340 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: given a graham and a half of barbiturous and um 341 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: over the course of this interview. So I mean, that's 342 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: that's that's probably a pretty long interview that the guy underwent, 343 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: and that's a lot of barbituous you know, well, yeah, 344 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: but that and that's one of the problems. These are 345 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: heavy drugs and like the back to the Fort Dick soldiers, 346 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: some of them experienced delirium and fantasies and delusions and 347 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 1: said that they have kids that they didn't have and 348 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: that I'm gonna kill my stepfather who was already dead. 349 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like sort of just throw it 350 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: all out the window if at that point, you know, well, 351 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: they don't know what's the truth and what's not exactly, 352 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: So I guess what they'll do is they'll put you 353 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: into sleep, bring you out, and ask you questions, and 354 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: they probably write down everything you said, and then you 355 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: they'll go back in fact check that kind of stuff 356 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: and see what they can use against you or or 357 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: in addition to probably as you're coming out. Finally at 358 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: the end of the interview, yeah, there there may be 359 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: some things that they know. Like if they suspect you 360 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: of something and you say something that implicates you, they 361 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: they'll they'll probably work that up pretty hard when you 362 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: have no memory of it, or they'll just lie and say, yeah, 363 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: you were you admitted to a lot of stuff. Do 364 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: you want to talk a little more about it exactly? 365 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: And you think you have you ever? Have you ever 366 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: been with you me when she's coming out of like 367 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: twilight sleep for a procedure or anything. No, she's she's 368 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: been there for me. That's good stuff. Yeah, that's where 369 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: you get the good stuff. Yeah, if if you ever 370 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: do have some questions ready, um or your tape recorder, 371 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: Like Emily had to go under not too long ago, 372 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: and uh, I went in and I was I was 373 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: like typing everything she was saying to me because I 374 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: wanted to read it to her later. At funny, she 375 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: thought they were throwing her a party and um, because 376 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: they had like the curtain that they pulled around the 377 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: hospital bed, you know, and she thought that they were 378 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: decorating for her party. And I wish I remembered everything 379 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: she said as real funny and then you know, when 380 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: I have my tooth done. I said all kinds of 381 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: crazy stuff to the doctors. Yeah, I'm sure that's the 382 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: best part of their day. Are the recordings of that? No, 383 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: I don't think so. You may records me when I'm 384 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: talking in my sleep. Yeah, it's really intrusive, man, And 385 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: then she'll play it for me the next morning and 386 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 1: laugh and laugh, and you'll delete it. No, she's got 387 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: it all on tape still. Really, yeah, I would get 388 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: rid of that stuff. I'm trying to. I don't know 389 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 1: where she keeps it. Um. All right, So you pointed 390 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: out one thing that they actually did mention in the 391 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: article too, is that persistent and careful questioning is the 392 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: only way that you're going to reduce these ambiguities that 393 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: are going flying around like. It's not just like a 394 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: regular interrogation. You have to understand that this person is 395 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: heavily drugged and you gotta weed through a bunch of 396 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: stuff to get to what may or may not be 397 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: the truth. And here's the big thing about using NARCO interviews, 398 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: narco analytical interviews. If you're a skilled interrogator, you should 399 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: be able to get all this from the same person 400 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: without the use of drugs. Well, that's what they say 401 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: to right. Yes, to the experts said, I would have 402 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: eventually gotten to this point had I just done it clean, Yeah, 403 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: had I had enough time, or had had we had 404 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: somebody in there who knew what they were doing more 405 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: to interrogate the person, we would have gotten the same thing. 406 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, I have the same impression that barbiturates are 407 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: shortcut as far as getting like probitive truth. Um. You know, 408 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: if you using like a narco interview or interrogation, Um, 409 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit of a shortcut, but it 410 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: also makes it much harder, like you were saying, for 411 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: even the most seasoned interrogator, because there's so much baffling 412 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: stuff that they include that may or may not be true, 413 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: that may or may not be related to anything that 414 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: that can actually kind of cloud the truth more than 415 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: if they were just sitting there line. Yeah, while and 416 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: if you're just Joe cop, you may not be some 417 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: trained psychologists and a lot of times it helps we 418 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: threw that stuff. I think Joe cops just say away 419 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: from the barbaituits in the suspects. At the same time, 420 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: you know, um Ben's adrine has actually been used as well. 421 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: You wouldn't think stimulants would be effective if you were 422 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: trying to question someone. But ben zadene and methodrene they 423 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: found potts. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's hardcore speed, 424 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical speed. It was what Neil Cassidy like died doing 425 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: ben bead and scopel amine. Is that right? How weird 426 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: at this wedding? I just saw that On the Road movie. 427 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: This made me think of that, remember him dying in 428 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: on the Road. Especially, he didn't die in on the Road, 429 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: but he died. You know. Neil Cassie was the real 430 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: dude that the character was, but in real life he 431 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: died at some wedding in Mexico. And it's sort of 432 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: but it's not necessarily in the movie. You'll just have 433 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: to see it. So, uh is it movie again? Um? 434 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: I mean, are you on the Road fan? Yeah? I 435 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: mean it's very faithful and it's very beautiful and the 436 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: casting was great. Okay, that was what I was worried 437 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: about the most. They do a good job with it, 438 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: and but you know how tough it is to make 439 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: a coherent, like traditional movie out of that book. So 440 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: I think he did a good job. I enjoyed it. 441 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: So anyway, hardcore speed was used for a while because 442 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: they thought that there was so little time for them 443 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: to consider formulating a lie, that people when they're on 444 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: the speed would just barf out everything as quick as 445 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: they can and just talk talk talk talk talk. Right, 446 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: So if you're gonna do that, you could still maybe 447 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: formulate a lie even though you're talking really fast. Let's 448 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: put the barbituates and the methamphetam means together and see 449 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: what happens. And I think he mentions at least one 450 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: study that found like, yeah, it kind of works a 451 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: little bit at the very least wild r if you're 452 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: a mild um. I just finished their auto biography, by 453 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: the way, really, yeah, that's what made me think of it. 454 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: Oh it's amazing, is it really? Yeah? That's cool. I'm 455 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: surprised those dudes are alive. Let's just put it that way. 456 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure. Um so. J. M. McDonald he's a psychiatrist 457 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: in Denver and he's had a lot of experience with this, 458 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: and he is one of the people that that is 459 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: pretty hardcore against the confession aspect of it, Like, we 460 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: can use it for a lot of things, but we 461 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: can't use it too as the truth of a confession 462 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: of a crime. That's just sort of his stance. Here's 463 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: why he do you remember the psychopath? I said that 464 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: got a graham and a half of barbiturous. This guy 465 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: was um, totally in control. He was completely self possessed, 466 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: as I think they put it um throughout this interview, 467 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: and actually was asking more than once like hey, can 468 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: I have another injection? I have a feeling he was 469 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: a serious drug user. Yeah, or at the very least 470 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: he was after that, sound like he had experience. So 471 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 1: he he and he that he didn't give up anything. 472 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: And what what McDonald thinks, and what I think a 473 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: lot of psychiatrists believe, is that if you are a 474 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: very self possessed person with the strong mind and I 475 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: guess the strong will you might put it, you're not 476 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: going to give up anything all the way until unconsciousness. 477 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: They can knock you out and you're not going to 478 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: say it. He even faked amnesia as part of the 479 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: whole ruse. Right, have you seen um side effects? Not yet? 480 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,959 Speaker 1: That's good. You don't even say anything else, no, no, 481 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: no spoilers, Yeah all right, uh yeah, well you're exactly right, though, 482 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: he uh, he faked all this stuff, and if you're 483 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: neurotic on the other hand, or the kind of person 484 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,719 Speaker 1: who is prone to confess, like a guilty conscience type anyway, right, 485 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: exactly like you. You You you feel relief by by by 486 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: telling people things, and you're more likely So it depends 487 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: on who's asking what they're asking, who the who the 488 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: person under the drugs is uh, A lot of different 489 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: factors on whether or not it's legitimate at all. So Chuck, 490 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: like we said, this is a CIA white paper from 491 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: that we're working off of. It's a white paper, yeah, um, 492 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: and it was recently declassified. Pretty cool paper if you 493 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: ask me. Um, although there it is really kind of 494 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: all over the place. Um the structure. Sure, I've become 495 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: an admirer of it. I know you're not, but I 496 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: like the guys in the CIA. He's not a professional writer. 497 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: He did a fine job. So he uh he he 498 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: points out that, Okay, I'm in the CIA. How do 499 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: we use this for the CIA? And he says that 500 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: it has been used before for example, um, to find 501 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: out if a foreign subject knows a language that you 502 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: say they're not, like, maybe they're actually a foreigner, a 503 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: double agent or something like that. You get like, I 504 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: don't know speaking English, and then all of a sudden 505 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: you get them under the thanks for the drugs exactly 506 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: so they can sniff out someone who says they don't 507 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: speak your tongue. Um. And he says that the one 508 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: of the problems is you're gonna have a hostile interrogation 509 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: and rapport like the the some of the guys in 510 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: this field of psychiatry've done studies on this show. It's 511 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: really important. But he kind of comes to the conclusion 512 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: that if you use a doctor, you have automatically somebody 513 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: that's universally trusted to some extent. And if you use 514 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: a doctor to conduct these inner views, you're probably gonna 515 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: have a little more poor And if it's a doctor 516 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: who knows what they're doing with interrogations, then yeah, this 517 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: could be kind of useful. The problem is is in 518 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: the West, as he puts it, the use of truth 519 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: serums is not it's not it's frowned on. It seems 520 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: unfair the Iron Curtain though, right, They wasn't Russia big 521 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: into it. No, he found the CIA writer found that 522 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: there was two mentions of Russia uh and truth serums, 523 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: and in one of them they said Russia doesn't use 524 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: these I don't buy that that's what he says. He's 525 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: the CIA author, so you'd think he would know, you know, 526 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: was that from the Comrade files didn't down there right? 527 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: Or was it like real information he was doing it. 528 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: I guess he was doing a survey of publicly available stuff. 529 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: So I'm sure that Russians wouldn't be like, yeah, we 530 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: use this stuff all the time. Chief Um, he did 531 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: say that, Okay, if we're not going to use it, 532 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: our guys should be aware of what the of possibly 533 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: having to experience this. And there's only one way to 534 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: train somebody, and that's to do it to them. So 535 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, as a result of this paper, how many 536 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: CIA agents have been you know, dosed up with barbiturous 537 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: and given the third degree, because that's what this recommendation was. 538 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: Just like, if you're an agent, you should be tested 539 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: on this, and not only will you know it, give 540 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: the agent the the firsthand experience, and you should videotape 541 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: it so they can see they didn't actually talk about this, 542 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: so they can't be manipulated into saying, oh, you said 543 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff. Still no, right, But also it 544 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: gives the agency, the awareness of like how much this 545 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: person is going to give up under under interrogation when 546 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: they're drugged, And maybe they shouldn't be sent to Latvia, 547 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: maybe they should just be sent to Brazil instead. That's 548 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: a good point. So like testing the dudes to see 549 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: how they would react in the field in case they're 550 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: in some back room somewhere, right and um femoral yeah 551 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,719 Speaker 1: he uh. He also suggests re member, we said LSD 552 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: doesn't work as a truth serum. He suggested that agents 553 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: possibly be given LSD, so if they're about to be 554 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: dosed with truth serum, they can take some LST and 555 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: just start going crazy, is how he puts it. In essence, 556 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: all of this stuff they say will be bizarre and unreliable. Wow. Yeah, 557 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: pretty cool stuff. Huh you got anything else? I think 558 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: that's about it, man. Yeah, I'm curious to see how 559 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: this Holmes trial what happens with that, because there's so 560 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: little like I think it was. Uh, well you said 561 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: you got the idea from seeing that. Yeah. I was 562 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: gonna say it was coincidence, but I guess not. There's 563 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: very few cases to even draw upon these days, so 564 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: well done. Well done to YouTube can't wait to see 565 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: what happens Holmes, So Truth Serum. We'll keep an eye 566 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: out for the James Holmes thing. Uh. If you want 567 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: to learn more about Truth Serum, you can try the 568 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: search bar how stuff works dot com. But you may 569 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: also want to read this CIA white paper, Truth, Drugs 570 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: and Interrogation by George Bimmerell. Uh. And it's from September 571 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: published by the CIA. Uh. And now it's time for listeners. Yes, Josh, 572 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this one. Uh. I can't remember what 573 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: this is. That's what you gonna call it. Wait, wait, 574 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: let me stop your for a second. Before we get 575 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: to listener mail. Um, we need to give a shout out. 576 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: Remember how we said, remember our horror fiction contest, could 577 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: I forget? And we said that any of the people 578 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: who entered as thanks, if they went on to publish anything, 579 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: let us know, and we would tell everybody. Well. One 580 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: of our horror writers, Melissa Maninny, has a sort of 581 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: a short story called The Hangar that's included in an 582 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: anthology of women horror writers called Mistresses of the macam. 583 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: It's available on Amazon dot com and on Dark Moon 584 00:33:54,520 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: Books dot com. So go check that out. Um, yeah, excellent, Melissa, congratulations. Okay, 585 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: now it's time for listening email. Sorry, that's right, Um, 586 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: we are going. I was able to title it in 587 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: that brief break this is uh Aaron's grandpa is we 588 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it hey guys. Today at work, I 589 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: was re listening to older podcasts when I heard how 590 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: tickling works and I was delightfully surprised to hear you 591 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: call out for stories about Disney, in particular fascinating ones 592 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: about the dark side. Um. This isn't one of those emails, however, 593 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: but my grandpa Ron Brown worked as an actor for 594 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: Disney in the late sixties to the late seventies, making 595 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: movies and TV shows with animals, and also behind the 596 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: scenes doing animal taming to a point and training. He 597 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: was well known for being able to train bears, but 598 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: most love for his strange assortment of critters he would 599 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: bring home from work to entertain my mom and her 600 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: siblings during her childhood. She had a pet squirrel, skunk, 601 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: and multiple pigs that would make their home in her bed. Uh. 602 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: He was the lead in two movies which I I 603 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: am almost positive you have not heard of. Charlie the 604 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: Lonesome cougar and left he the dingling links and I 605 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,439 Speaker 1: haven't heard of either one of those Disney was pumping 606 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: about though. You know, even though he never made it 607 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: big in Hollywood in his older years, he would always 608 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: tell interesting stories hanging out with John Wayne or how 609 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: he was One time in an elevator with Walt Disney himself, 610 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: he chickened out telling him how much he loved all 611 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: the time spent working for him. When he moved to 612 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: a Sequim, Washington, he helped move retired show bears up 613 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: to the Olympic Game Farm, where he would continue to 614 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 1: train them an impressed tourist while making bears do fun tricks. 615 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: And anyways, I love my grandpa very much and I 616 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: mostly just wanted to share these memories of him that 617 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: have been passed down to my favorite podcasters. So that 618 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: is from Aaron, and she a cinephoto two of Grandpa 619 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: Ron with John Wayne. So he wasn't making that up. Wow, 620 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: it's pretty cool. So Aaron, we love stories about cool 621 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: grandpa's and thanks sure, thanks, and thanks to your grandpa 622 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: for being a cool grandpa. Um, if you want to 623 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: tell us about your cool grandpa or any cool relative 624 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: that hasn't a pretty interesting story, whether it relates to 625 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: the podcast or not, we want to hear. You can 626 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: tweet to us at s y s K podcast. You 627 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: can join us on Facebook, dot com slash stuff you 628 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: Should Know, and our home on the web is our website, 629 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: appropriately titled stuff you Should Know dot com. For more 630 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, is it how 631 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com