1 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Over the course of my career, 2 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time working for the corner 3 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: or working with corners and training corners all over the 4 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: United States. Now as a college professor, I study them. 5 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: But many people don't know anything about that office. It's 6 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: ancient and old. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 7 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: Bodybags back with me again. It's my good friend Jackie Howard, 8 00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We're gonna 9 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about corners today. Well you're gonna 10 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: have to school me, Joe, because we know there are corners, 11 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: and we know there are medical examiners. So which do 12 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: you want to talk about first? To explain to me 13 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: what they are and what's the difference. We got to 14 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: start with coroners, Jackie, because it's one of the biggest 15 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: questions that folks, you know, they want to know, you know, 16 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: what is a corner because many people don't know. And 17 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: of course you know, it's like any great story, and 18 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: trust me, the story of corners is fascinating. You got 19 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: to start at the beginning. I got to tell you, you 20 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: you know, the first time I ever heard the term, 21 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, when it was Jackie. I was actually a 22 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: high school student. And in my high school they offered 23 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: a course that was called fan Intology, and I didn't 24 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: really know what it was, and I took it as 25 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: an elect Hey that again, it was called what fan antology? 26 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: Fan for me? Yes Tha n okay fan okay, fan intology, 27 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: And actually it's the study of death and all things 28 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: involving death. We got to go to graveyards, we got 29 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: to go to funeral homes, and you know, it kind 30 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: of started an interest on my part about, you know, 31 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: what was this world all about? And I heard them 32 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: talking about the term corner and I didn't know what 33 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: it meant. I just knew that it had something to 34 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: do with the dead, and and through my own you know, 35 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: kind of elementary reasoning at that point in time, I thought, well, coroner, 36 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: it probably has something to do with the heart, you know, 37 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: like coronary artery. I couldn't be further from the truth. 38 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: And you have to go all the way back to 39 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: a time in England before there was a Great Britain. 40 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: It was actually the country of England, a standalone country, 41 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: all the way back to the times of Alfred the Great, 42 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: one of the first kings of England, and there is 43 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: evidence that the term corner was mentioned, but it wasn't 44 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: actually the word corner. They actually were referred to back 45 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: then as crowners. And over the years that term evolved 46 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: from the word crowner to corner. And why why crowner? 47 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of people would scratch their 48 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: heads and wonder, well, they were actually the representatives of 49 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: the crown, and they were they were They were there 50 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: to hear the please It was called hearing the pleas 51 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: of the Crown, if you will, And there were these 52 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: three nights that were assigned to this duty. They would 53 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: travel around and they would essentially work as kind of 54 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 1: de facto death investigators, trying to figure out what had 55 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: happened in that environment. But there their purpose was not 56 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: to necessarily solve crimes or try to find out rationales. 57 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: It was to collect money. And that's you know, some 58 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: people point to this period of time is when the 59 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: death tax actually began to be enforced and to take place. 60 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: And I think I have a lot of people that 61 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: have come to me over the years and they'll say, 62 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: you know, we've heard that it's illegal to commit suicide, 63 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: and that that had actually been on the books at 64 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: some point time. And you know, interestingly enough, it was 65 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: declared at one point in time that it was in 66 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: fact illegal to commit suicide, but it had nothing to 67 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: do with the destination of your eternal, immortal soul, as 68 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people think that it had some kind 69 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: of connection to the church. The thing was was that 70 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: back during these times, if an individual took their own life, 71 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:33,239 Speaker 1: that means that if this could be proven, then every 72 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: bit of property that they had, guess where it would go, 73 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: it would be forfeited to the crown so they could collect. 74 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: So there was like a motivation on the parts of 75 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: these representatives of the crown to go out and certainly 76 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: make a determination about to cause death. I really wonder 77 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: all those years ago, if they kind of listed toward 78 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: a manner of death that would have been qualified as 79 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: suicide because all the money, all your property, all your 80 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: livestock would be taken, and it didn't matter what station 81 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: you held in life, so it would be reverted over 82 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: to the crown. And you know, you go forward, you 83 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: know a few years from there, and people have heard 84 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: of Richard the Lionhearted. Well he was kind of he's 85 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: kind of the the if you will, the spiritual father, 86 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: I guess, if you will, or this ancient person that 87 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: existed during that period of time that kind of formalized 88 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: the office of crown or slash corner because he was 89 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: all fighting crusades and he was not getting money or 90 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: revenue from the sheriffs. You've heard of the evil Sheriff 91 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: of Nottingham and the robin Hood legacy, and that can 92 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: be traced back to that period of time and Evil 93 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: King John that was in place of King Richard. Well, 94 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: King Richard needed a source of funds and so he 95 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: would send these crowners out to collect money on his 96 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: behalf so he could continue to prosecute these crusades and 97 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: ransoms and all of these things that were taking place 98 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: during that period of time. But after period of time, 99 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: the office began to evolve and it just became part 100 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: and parcel of English common law, and still to this 101 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: day it exists. There's certainly a quite a few years 102 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: between those days and these. So what does a coroner 103 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: do and how does a corner get into office? Yeah, 104 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: it's it's gonna vary from state to state. Essentially, what 105 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: the requirements are going to be to be a corner. 106 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: And still roughly about half the states in the United 107 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: States still hold on to this office of corner. Remember 108 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: when the British colonies, you know, and you know, you 109 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: think back to the Massachusetts Bay Colony and these sorts 110 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: of things, they didn't just leave England behind. They brought 111 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: English common law with them. And so when they brought 112 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: all of these offices together, and kind of backing up 113 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: a little bit, that ancient document, the Magna Carta, people 114 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: don't realize how old these offices are actually. I think 115 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: it's like in the twenty of a paragraph of the 116 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: Magna Carta. You can still see it if you look 117 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: at a copy of it. The word sheriff, bailiff, and 118 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: corner are all mentioned in the same line. That's how 119 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: old these offices are. And it goes back. This goes 120 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: back to the early twelve hundreds when the Magna Carta 121 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: was instituted, and so that law came over to the 122 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: US or to the colonies at that point in time, 123 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: because they had no other framework to kind of go 124 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: off of, you know, so they we're going to maintain this, 125 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: and so the corners in the US as we see 126 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: them now essentially evolved from those early days. And you 127 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: can go from state to state, and every now and 128 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: then you'll come across these weird kind of what we 129 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: refer to as amalgams of corners and medical examiners and 130 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things, and it's really it gets confusing. 131 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: But just so folks understand, they're in many states, and 132 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: not all, but in many states there is no real 133 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: educational requirement for a corner and that's one of the 134 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: knocks against the system that if you go to run 135 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: for the office of coroner, that you don't have to 136 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: be particularly degreed in a certain area. But I'll give 137 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: you an example. As everybody knows, I started my career 138 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: in Louisiana. Well, Louisiana is a corner state. That means 139 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: that each one of the parishes, which are like counties, 140 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: has its own corner. But in that state, in order 141 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: to run for the office, you have to be a physician. 142 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: You have to be a medical doctor in order to 143 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: run for that office. But you go to other states 144 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: and in some places they require nothing more than a 145 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: geed in order to run for that office. So there's 146 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: a desperate difference between the level of education that's going 147 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: to vary from state to state in many cases, and 148 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: that can leave the population wanting, you know, as far 149 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: as thorough death investigations. And then on top of that, 150 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: some states require corners to have formal training, and in 151 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: other states they essentially say, good luck, here's a book 152 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: of the laws, best of luck to you, I hope 153 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: you do well, and they give very little training. And 154 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: so that's a problem nationwide that has been identified over 155 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: the years. One of the tragic things here is that 156 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: many people never really, never really fully appreciate what the 157 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:50,119 Speaker 1: corner does until perhaps a corner or a corner investigator 158 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: shows up at their doorstep to deliver them individually bad news. 159 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: Can you imagine that's the first time you ever hear 160 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: about a corner and then suddenly you're kind of plunged 161 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: into this world where you have to understand what the 162 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: office does and they what service they're supposed to provide 163 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: to families. Once you get elected, is there a class 164 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: A certification? I mean, are you telling me there's nothing 165 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: in some jurisdictions that I have to do other than 166 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: run for office. Yeah, in certain jurisdictions, Jackie, it is 167 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: mandated that you have to go to, say, for instance, 168 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: in certain jurisdictions, a two week course in order to 169 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: be up to speed with the laws and the basics 170 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: of medical legal death investigation. But when you compare that 171 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: level of training to say, for instance, what a physician 172 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: has to go through that might become a medical examiner, 173 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: we can get into that there's a huge gulf of 174 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: disparity relative to education and being a tune to what 175 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: the form and function is of the office. And you know, 176 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 1: we kind of have to understand what does a corner do. Well, 177 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: they're actually refer too officially as the certifier of death. 178 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: You know when you say, God, that sounds kind of odd. 179 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, they're the person that first 180 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: off can validate a death to say that this individual 181 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: has in effect died all right in this local community. 182 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: And that's going to vary from place to place. Some 183 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: states required that a physician actually go to the scene 184 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: or that the body be brought to a physician and 185 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,719 Speaker 1: they declare death, whereas in certain locations the corner can 186 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: declare death at a particular moment in time. So it's 187 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: going to be heavily dependent upon state laws. But once 188 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: that has taken place, it's the ball is going to 189 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: be completely in the court of the coroner to make 190 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: a determination as to what's going to happen after that. 191 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: And their role is to determine, first off, what the 192 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: manner of death is. And you've heard me mentioned this before, 193 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: and we have five of them, which is natural, we 194 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: have homicide, accidental suicide, and then the fifth one that's 195 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 1: kind of nebulous, is called undetermined. And if you'll kind 196 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: of imagine those five manners of death as a gigantic umbrella. 197 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: The next the next step that corners have to do 198 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: is determine what the cause of death is, so that 199 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: you know that's going to be things like say, an 200 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: acute mio cardial infarction, which is you know, it's it's 201 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: medical ease for a heart attack. Okay, part of the 202 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: heart muscle dies as a result of a blockage. Okay, well, 203 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:32,719 Speaker 1: many people in this country. A matter of fact, the 204 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: number one killer in our country is actually heart disease. 205 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: All right, most people are going to succumb to that. 206 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: But the question is, can someone let's say, for instance, 207 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: let's take let's take an acute m I as it's 208 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: referred to in the vernacular, can someone die of a 209 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: heart attack and that be classified as something other than 210 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: a natural death. Well, the question is, yeah, yeah, that 211 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: can happen. I've actually handled a case where an individual 212 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: shocked an old man by putting a shotgun in the 213 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: old man's face and the guy had a heart attack 214 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: and died, and that young man was tried for murder 215 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: and was convicted. So yeah, that can happen. It can happen. 216 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: But more commonly, you know, we begin to think about 217 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: things like, well, gunshot wounds, Well, what classifications can gunshot 218 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,359 Speaker 1: wounds fall under? Well, we've got certainly homicide, we've got suicide, 219 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: and then we've got accidental, and then you might have undetermined. 220 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: So it's up to the corner to make a determination 221 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: as to which one of these categories that the cause 222 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: of death is going to fit under relative to manner, 223 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: And this can get pretty complicated, particularly when you have 224 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: cases that go back years and years and years where 225 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: you have a real hard time trying to come up 226 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: with the specifics of what happened, and over a period 227 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: of time, the individual may for instance, be layered over 228 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: with other disease process that have had one of the 229 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: things that impacted me the most. I think when I 230 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: was a very young corner investigators, I actually assisted in 231 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: the autopsy of a gentleman that had been in a 232 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: nursing home since I think it was like nineteen forty 233 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: six Stateside, and he had been in there since he 234 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: was like twenty. I believe he finally died in the eighties. 235 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: And he had been paralyzed essentially from his waisted down 236 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: or from his mid abdomen down, and had constant care 237 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: over all these years. And Jackie, one of the tragic 238 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: things about this is that the reason this gentleman had 239 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: wound up in the nursing home to begin with was 240 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: the fact that he had sustained a gunshot wound all 241 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: those years back, multiple decades back, you know, where he 242 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: sustained that gunshot wound at the Battle of the Bulge, 243 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: and that round had actually lodged in his spine against 244 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: his spinal cord and had paralyzed him. And they didn't 245 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: have the ability to extricate that round. They figured that 246 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: it would cause greater harm. And you know that, all 247 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: of those years later, even though he had been in 248 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: a nursing home, the corner at that time ruled his death, 249 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: ruled his death as a homicide, and so I was 250 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: always fascinated by that, And I remember distinctly being there 251 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: present for the autopsy and I physically removed that projectile 252 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: from his spine, and there I was holding that piece 253 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: of history in my hand. And you know, now, all 254 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: of these years later, I think about how everything that 255 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: you do in life, many times relative to death investigation, 256 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: is going to impact the future going forward. So the 257 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: corner has to be equipped to analyze every bit of 258 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: this data that comes in, particularly is that applies to 259 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: people's medical histories and all this. Keep in mind, contrary 260 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: to what you see on television, homicides only make up 261 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: a very very small percentage of the deaths that corners 262 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: and even medical examiners work. The line share of the 263 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: deaths are going to be some kind of natural, natural 264 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: disease pathology. So you have to be really attuned to 265 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: natural disease and kind of how it impacts the population 266 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: at large. Joe, you're making me shake my head because 267 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: it's just kind of mind boggling knowing that there are 268 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: different regulations depending on where you live. So you could 269 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: have a tremendous corner one who is highly qualified to 270 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: handle death scenes, or you could have Joe blow off 271 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: the street who just has a ged. What do we 272 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: do with this knowledge? Yeah? Well, first off, let me 273 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: qualify what I'm about to say by saying this. I've 274 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: trained a lot of corners over the course of my career, 275 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: and I have to say many many of the best 276 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: corners death investigators that I've ever worked with were people 277 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: that were absent some kind of high flung college degree. 278 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: They were just good common sense people that understood practical application. 279 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: And when it comes down to a death investigation is 280 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: practical common sense knowledge that the trick is understanding and learning. 281 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: You have to be self taught in a lot of 282 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: these areas about everything. I mean everything from natural disease 283 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: pathology like we mentioned, to toxicology to even DNA and 284 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: you know, and even the greatest physicians that are out 285 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 1: there are not necessarily schooled in all of these areas. 286 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: And much of the time it comes down to how 287 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: motivated the coroner is that is in office and how 288 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: many resources they have. And sadly, sadly, one of the 289 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: problems is is that for many coroners is that they're 290 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: not they have such a desire to serve their community 291 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: but yet they don't receive the appropriate amount of funding. 292 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: The state might not provide the amount of training that 293 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: would bring them up to speed, say with their colleagues 294 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: that are a medical examiner's office, and they don't have 295 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: the facilities. I've worked in, you know, with coroner's offices before, 296 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: where I've worked in some of the most deplorable conditions 297 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: that you can imagine, and it's because there were no 298 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: resources existent. And I think a lot of it comes 299 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: down to many times politicians they don't want to think 300 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: about death. They don't want to sit around and talk 301 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: about death. But isn't it interesting that it's going to 302 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: impact everybody. It's going to touch everybody's life. No one else, 303 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: they say, gets out alive, and it sooner or later, 304 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: as it all kind of spins around and life goes on, 305 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: people are going to be impacted by the services of 306 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: the corner And in my estimation, there is no greater 307 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: service than helping families that have lost a loved one. 308 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: I've worked in both corners and medical examiners over the 309 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: course of my career, and the one commonality that I 310 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: have found is that in the offices I've worked in 311 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: that people always were striving for excellence. They wanted to 312 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: be there as medical legal death investigators. But the problem 313 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: is is that many times many of them like training 314 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: and they don't necessarily have all the resources that other 315 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: people have. So you've explained to me what a corner is. 316 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: Of course, you know, I'm going to show my age 317 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: here and saying I used to watch Quincy all the time. 318 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: It is my favorite show with Jack Klugman. So what 319 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: is the difference between a medical examiner and a corner. Well, 320 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm glad that you mentioned the show Quincy. 321 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: I get I get that comment a lot. Did you 322 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: know that corners out in and this is one of 323 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: the little interesting little factoids about corners in certain areas 324 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: of California. The corner and the sheriff. Listen to me 325 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: very carefully, The corner and the sheriff are one and 326 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: the same in the office. And there's a lot of 327 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: people that have a problem with that that they see 328 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: that as a conflict of interest between these two offices, 329 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: and yet they will employ a medical examiner to actually 330 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: do the examinations. Now, it kind of makes your head 331 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: spin when you begin to think of it. There's actually, 332 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: you know, Jackie. There's actually a couple of states out 333 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: there that where the coroner is also a prosecutor, which 334 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: I find fascinating. You can go down to Texas, they 335 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: don't have corners, and you go to the big cities, 336 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: they'll have a medical examiner in cities, But do you 337 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: know who actually does the job of the corner in 338 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: Texas and many of those counties, the justice of the peace. 339 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: It's just one of these things that's all over the board. 340 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: So when we begin to talk about medical examiners commonly 341 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: and not in every single case, I think that Michigan 342 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: is probably one of the best examples where you'll have 343 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: a physician that is not necessarily a pathologist or forensic pathologists, 344 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: but they are a physician and they kind of handle 345 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: individual counties in that region. But by and large, when 346 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: you think about medical examiner, you think about this term 347 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: that people here in the media all the time, forensic pathologist. 348 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: And to give you an example, for instance, if you're 349 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: going to be if you have kids that come to 350 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: me all the time at university and they say, I 351 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: want to be a forensic pathologist, I want to be 352 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: a medical examiner, and I explained to them what they 353 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 1: have to do, and this is what you have to do. 354 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: This is the simple recipe. First off, you got to 355 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: go to medical school. Well how long is that, Well, 356 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: that's four years after you graduate with your undergraduate degree. 357 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: And then if you want to go into forensic pathology, 358 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: first off you have to go through a pathology residency. 359 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,239 Speaker 1: That's five years, Jackie. So we're talking about right now 360 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: at this point, nine years after you graduated with your 361 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: undergraduate degree. And then if you make it through the 362 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: pathology residency, which is you know, all the stuff that 363 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: they do looking at tumors and then managing a lab 364 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: and all those sort of things in hospitals, then you 365 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: have to find what's referred to as a forensic pathology residency. Now, 366 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: when I was working in Atlanta, we had a it's 367 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: actually a fellowship. We had a fellowship program there. You know, 368 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,959 Speaker 1: we only selected two people per year that would come 369 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: in and they were from all over the world. So 370 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: it's highly competitive to get one of these positions as 371 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: a as a forensic pathologist. And then you have to 372 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: make it through all of the training and it's very 373 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: very intensive. So you have all of these years of 374 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: training that an individual has to go through to become 375 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,920 Speaker 1: a medical examiner. And then you compare that to what 376 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: many states use their system as a corner system where 377 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: they don't have a medical examiner. So you know, we 378 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: talk about the level or lack thereof, of education of 379 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: the resources that are made available to corners, and it's 380 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: a real head scratcher, isn't it. Because you can go 381 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: to a place like, say, for instance, I'll give you 382 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: a great example, a state of Oklahoma. State of Oklahoma 383 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: doesn't have corners. That's a statewide medical examiners system. Same 384 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: thing in New Mexico, statewide medical examiner system. You get 385 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: down to Florida, the state is broken into districts where 386 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: you have a district medical examiner for all these various 387 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: areas down in Florida. Virginia the same way. But you 388 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: go to New York and New York has still has 389 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: county corners in that area, but they have a state 390 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: medical examiner. It's very confusing. They have a state medical examiner, 391 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: and then they have in of course New York City, 392 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: they have the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner. So 393 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: you get these amalgams that are thrown in on top 394 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: of it, and it leaves people sitting back, and no 395 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: wonder they get so confused because the media, I think 396 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 1: many times uses these terms interchangeably. I think you're right, 397 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: and I also think that you just gave me a 398 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: whole new respect for the people that I work with 399 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: day in and day out. I did not realize that 400 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: it was that intensive to become a forensic pathologist. Now, 401 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: do you have to be certified to be a medical examiner? Well, 402 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: that's going to be depended upon the state in order 403 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: to become a medical examiner, or it's not necessarily termed 404 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,479 Speaker 1: that way as a certification, it is. There is a 405 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: board certification. So let me kind of break it down 406 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: for you. First off, you have to be an MD. Okay, 407 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: if we're going with a kind of a classic model here, 408 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: you have to be an MD, a medical physician. Then 409 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: you have to be a pathologist, which means you have 410 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: to do that five year residency. Well, at the end 411 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: of that five year residency, these people have to go 412 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: through this just in intense board certification and they get 413 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: certified and what's referred to as anatomical pathology and then 414 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: clinical pathology, and then after that there's subdivisions. You can 415 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: go into blood banking. You can go into histopathology, or 416 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: you can go in to say, for instance, forensic pathology, 417 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: and that's a one year fellowship. That's another three hundred 418 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: and sixty five days of training you have to endure, 419 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: and then you have to go through another test for that. 420 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: And there are many people that go through all of 421 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: that training and they get to the forensic pathology training 422 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: and that might sit for those boards Jackie, if you 423 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: can imagine this. I've known of people that have sat 424 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: three and four times and they never pass it because 425 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: it's that intense. So you know when at the end 426 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: of the day, at the end of that process, you 427 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: really produce a high quality practitioner at the end. But 428 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: here's the downside. After you've gone through all of this training. Now, 429 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: if you're working as a forensic pathologist, you're going to 430 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: go to work for the government, and you can imagine 431 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: that you're not going to get paid as well as 432 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: many of your colleagues say they just stopped with general pathology. 433 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: And you're going to be undergoing the rigors of court. 434 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: You're going to be doing autopsies day in and day out. 435 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: You're going to have to see some of the most 436 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: horrible things that you can possibly imagine. And right now, 437 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: there is a real desperate lack of board certified forensic 438 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: pathologists out there. I've I've actually talked to a couple 439 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: of people that always bring it to my attention, say, 440 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, there are more board certified neurosurgeons than there 441 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: are forensic pathologists in this country, and just kind of 442 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: wrap your mind around that just for a second, because 443 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of people that go into the field, 444 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: but yet there's such a need. You know, when you 445 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: think about, you know, the big cities that require this 446 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: constant tending to the dead, if you will, an examination 447 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: of these bodies. You go to places like New York 448 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: in LA and Detroit and Chicago and Miami and Atlanta, 449 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: You've always got an influx of bodies that need to 450 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: be examined. They need to be examined by professionals. Well 451 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: what do you do if you're if you're in a 452 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: corner state and you don't have access to a forensic pathologist. Well, 453 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: those bodies have to be transported to a location where 454 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: you can get access to somebody that can effectively do 455 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: an autopsy. And it creates a real, real problem. So 456 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: let's throw a monkey wrench in this, Joe. Where do 457 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: you come in in this hierarchy that's scene investigator? Well, 458 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: you know people who have asked me that before, and 459 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: you know, they say, well, you say you work for 460 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: a corner you work for a medical exam er. Well, yeah, 461 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: I'm I'm once referred to as a medico legal or 462 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: was was. I'm a college professor now, but you know 463 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: you I worked as a medico legal death investigator. And 464 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: essentially what that means is that just like homicide detectives 465 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: go out and they are the eyes and the ears 466 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: of the chief of police, or you can even extend 467 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 1: that to the prosecutor because they're looking to prosecute a 468 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: case of homicide, people like myself are the eyes and 469 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: the ears of the forensic pathologists in the field. So 470 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: you know, you see it on TV where you have 471 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: these doctors, you know, these forensic pathologists that go out 472 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: to these scenes and these dramas and all that stuff. 473 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: There's not enough of them to do that, Jackie. It 474 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: just it doesn't happen. Now, I've been out on scenes 475 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: with forensic pathologists before. Trust me, it does happen every 476 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: now and then. But for the most part. Day in 477 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: and day out, it's going to be people like myself 478 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: that go out and they go and observe the bodies 479 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: at the scene. Remember, one of the most important parts 480 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: of death investigation is seeing the body in its natural, 481 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: pristine state, that place where you live, you and dwell, 482 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: where you go about your business with your family, where 483 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: things happen to you in that environment. When you take 484 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: that body out of context and you don't go out 485 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: to the scene to examine the body, it can wind 486 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: up creating major problems. So for the medical legal people 487 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: like myself, the investigators, we go out take photos at 488 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: the scene, just like the police do. We do our measurements, 489 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: we do our examinations, and then we make a decision 490 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: at the scene as to whether or not we're going 491 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: to release the body from the scene to a funeral 492 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: home or if we're going to bring the body in 493 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: for further examination back at the county Mork And that's 494 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: the longest sort of it. That's what we do. The 495 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: difference between a medical legal death investigator and say, for instance, 496 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: a homicide investigator is that homicide investigator is specifically focused 497 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: on homicide. Well, homicides make up a very very small 498 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: percentage of the satality of all the deaths that occur. 499 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: We still have to go out and examine examine natural deaths, 500 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: and of course suicides and accents and all these things. 501 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 1: But our working premise, and this is something that I 502 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: teach my students and always have and always will, is 503 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: that our working assumption is that every death, every death, 504 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: is a homicide until we can prove otherwise. And the 505 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: reason we do that is because if you assume that 506 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: everything that you go out on is a homicide, that's 507 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: the most intense investigation that you can conduct, and that 508 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: way that ensures that you're not going to miss anything. 509 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: That you're going to assume that something nefarious has happened 510 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: to this individual, and then logically you begin to go 511 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: down your checklist and you're whittling things away until you 512 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,959 Speaker 1: come to a conclusion that it's something other than homicide, 513 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: for instance, and then you can move forward with the investigation. 514 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: You can get medical records, or you can go back 515 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: and get psychiatric records, for instance, if you're dealing with 516 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: a suicide, and it all fits into one gigantic piece, 517 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: which should be a complete investigation relative to manner and 518 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: cause of Death. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 519 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: body Backs.