WEBVTT - Elon Musk Gets Vetted for TikTok While Steve Bannon Seethes 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:09.240 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.280 Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:18.479 More than half the satellites in space are owned and 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:20.320 controlled by one man. 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:23.919 Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate. 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.759 He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:27.560 it will be different. 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:28.560 He'll vote Republican. 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.280 There is a reason the US government is so reliant 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:31.720 on him. 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.920 Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:38.840 Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:49.800 Welcome to Elon, Inc. 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:54.240 Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, January fourteenth. 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.279 I'm Max Chafkin in for David Papadopolis, who's. 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:00.760 On vacation this week. We had big news last night. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:06.039 TikTok is reportedly under consideration by Chinese officials to be 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:08.680 sold or handed off. We're not totally sure what the 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:10.679 terms of this would look like to none other than 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.560 Elon Musk. We're gonna talk about the business implications, the 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.399 political implications, and of course the implications for teenagers everywhere. 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:22.039 And then, with the inauguration less than a week away, 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.480 we're going to talk about the brewing feud between Steve Bannon, 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:29.440 the kind of right wing influencer and podcaster, former Trump 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.160 administration official, and good old Elon. And to do this, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.080 we've got a great cast of characters for you. Kurt 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.160 Wagner is joining us. He is Bloomberg's social media reporter 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.399 and my favorite high school quarterback. 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:43.360 Hey, Kurt, i'm ax. 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:43.760 Thanks. 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.520 And later Dana Hall, our Elon Musk reporter, and Josh Green, 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:51.400 Bloomberg BusinessWeek political reporter, will be joining us to talk 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:52.720 about political stuff. 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:56.080 But Kurt, let's start here. There's some news. 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.160 But to people who listen to the Elon podcast, it 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:01.880 would have been a little bit familiar. I want to 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:03.960 play a little bit of tape from our end of 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.640 the year, our New Year's Eve special. 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:11.760 I just don't see that being that beneficial for Elon, 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.680 like to have true social I think it's more likely 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:20.119 that he will will somehow end up with the US 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:21.880 version of TikTok Kurt. 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:23.800 This is why Sarah Fryar makes a big bucks, Am 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:25.040 I right? I mean she called it. 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:25.880 Yeah. 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:28.520 The pay grade is high for Sarah Fryer for this 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.120 very reason. Right, She is seeing around corners that you 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.760 and I can only wish wish to be seen around. 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.440 Max Okay, So Sarah was suggesting that Elon Musk could 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:40.880 somehow take over TikTok. Why don't she just break down 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.680 what Bloomberg reported last night. I mean this was a 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.440 big this is big news in the world of business. 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:51.000 Yeah, so we are admittedly still aways from Sarah's prediction 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:56.080 coming true. But what we reported was that senior officials 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.919 in China are basically game planning what do we do 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.040 if the TikTok ban goes into effect, right, which is 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.840 supposed to happen this coming Sunday. And one of the 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.600 options that has been discussed was the idea that, well, 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:14.200 maybe Elon Musk would be a reasonable owner for this platform, right, 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:17.359 And it kind of makes sense in a number of 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.040 ways if you want it to. One is that he 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.799 obviously already owns X. He has a very close relationship 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:28.760 with incoming President Trump, so it, you know, in all likelihood, 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:31.880 would be approved by the incoming administration, which is one 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:34.880 part of this equation. But then he also has business 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.360 in China, right with Tesla, and he has a huge 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.320 sort of foot in that country. And if you are 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:42.680 the Chinese government and you say well, is there someone 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:43.920 we want to curry favor with? 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:44.160 Right? 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:47.119 Is there somebody that we want to if this has 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.440 to be sold, if that's the only way for this 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:54.360 thing to exist, is Elon Musk perhaps the most stomachable 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.720 option for them, in part because they also maybe get 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:00.680 some leverage in return, and so for all those reasons, 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.640 it is sort of being discussed as a possibility. I 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:05.640 want to be clear that this is not necessarily going 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:07.840 to happen. That there's a whole bunch of other things 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.040 that would have to happen for this to ever actually 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:14.160 come to fruition. But again, senior officials in China sort 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.919 of thinking about Elon as a possible owner of TikTok 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:17.880 as a possibility. 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:18.880 Yeah, just to. 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.520 Build on that for a second. So Number one, Byte 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.880 Dance the parent company of TikTok. They are not directly 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:28.160 controlled by the Chinese government. There is some question about 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.320 whether just because Chinese officials are talking about this would 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.480 Bite Dance to it, although, as as many people know, 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:38.080 China's government has a huge amount of sway on its businesses. 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:43.279 TikTok has actually called this report quote pure fiction. Responding 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.599 to a different news outlet, Kurt has Elon commented on 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:48.640 this yet, I. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:49.920 Haven't seen him comment, but he did. 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:53.120 Someone posted on Twitter last night that was like, here's 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.680 all the TikTok users when Elon buys the company, and 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.520 it was all these people like screaming and crying and 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.120 being all sad. And Elon just responded to that tweet 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.880 with the laughing face emoji, right, like he he didn't 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.040 necessarily come out and say like this is crazy, I 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.160 would never buy it. He's sort of like leaned into 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:10.200 the joke, if you will. But no, you know, we 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.800 tried to reach out to Elon before publishing the story, 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.360 as you can imagine, Max, we did not hear back 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:17.920 from him or his representatives. So but I think what 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:20.080 you just said is important, right, which is the role 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.119 of byte Dance and all this So ByteDance, of course 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.120 is the Chinese parent company of TikTok, and it has 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.640 said it has no intention of selling this business. Now, 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.040 I think where the Chinese government comes in is if 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:34.600 they're the only way forward for TikTok to exist in 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.240 the US is a sale, and if they want to 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.640 sell it with the algorithm included, right, So that's the 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:42.839 technology that sort of determines what everyone. 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.159 Says, that type of sale, with that. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.920 Type of technology changing hands would actually require Chinese government approval. 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:52.480 Kurt, how unusual is this? 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:56.320 I mean, just from the outside, you know, a world 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:00.920 power sort of discussing handing one of the most successful 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:08.000 companies to a foreign politically connected executive, Like it sounds 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.000 so crazy, But I mean, like how I guess, I 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.440 guess question is, like how crazy is this? Obviously Sarah 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:16.000 Fryar predicted it, so it can't be that crazy, but still. 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.560 Yeah, I mean I'm not familiar of sort of a 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.960 similar situation, certainly in like the consumer tech space, right, Like, 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:28.200 nothing like this has ever happened from a social networking standpoint. 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:30.400 I can say that with a lot of confidence. I'm 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.679 not like a geopolitical expert when it comes to China 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:35.880 and trade and and all that stuff. So perhaps there 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.520 have been other businesses where there's been discussions like this, 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:43.039 But I think this sort of you know, is exemplifies 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.800 a little bit about like what is so unique about 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.039 our current moment in time, right like President Trump coming 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:52.440 back to office and all of sort of the unusual 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:57.120 or untraditional methods that he operates under. Elon Musk and 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.320 all of the sort of chaos that usually comes with him. 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.120 This and that you know, we've been talking about for 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:04.840 four years, but now is finally kind of coming together 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:08.039 at this exact moment in time, when when there's a 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:10.760 transition of power. So I do think that this is 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:15.280 very unique, very you know, interesting time for both tech 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.720 but also geopolitics. As you point out, I can't really 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:19.520 think of anything off the top of my head at 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:21.840 least that that sort of rivals this moment for me. 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.760 Well, and as you hinted at earlier there, it's probably 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:30.480 it's hard to think of another prominent American chief executive 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:34.160 officer who is as close to China as Elon Musk. Right, 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:39.320 he enjoys a very good relationship with Beijing. Tesla was 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.240 able to open a car factory, you know, quicker than 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.720 anybody else. They changed the rules effectively for ownership of 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:50.200 car factories for Elon Musk, So like you can imagine 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.880 him being a person that both Beijing could get comfortable 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.280 with and Trump. Kurt, what about Elon and TikTok. I 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.960 mean he has said in the past, unless I'm mistaken, 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.720 and that he wanted X to be more like TikTok, 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.480 So it seems like there's really a lot of synergy 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.080 with this proposal. 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:07.480 Yeah. 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:09.160 I mean I think if you're Elon, this is like 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.800 the biggest coup of all time, right, Like you suddenly 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.440 get one of the most valuable, most exciting, up and 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:21.000 coming social networks sort of gift wrapped to you. 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:21.320 Right. 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:24.320 And I think one element of this that we just 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:26.960 do not know is, let's pretend this all these stars 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.800 align max, right, and the Chinese government says, hey, we 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:31.720 want Elon to own this, And Trump says, hey, that 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.360 solves our national security concerns. And Elon says, great. What 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:37.360 does a deal actually look like here? 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:37.720 Right? 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.480 Because we know that he is, you know, has a 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.520 ton of loans that he has taken out over the 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.760 years that use his Tesla stock as collateral. He's obviously 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.000 the richest man in the world, no doubt he could 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.520 find go out and find banks and other investors to 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.199 help him finance something like this. But as we saw 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:56.240 with the Twitter deal, it's not always like quite as 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:58.520 easy as like, oh, he's super rich, he can totally 0:08:58.520 --> 0:08:58.959 do this thing. 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.080 Yeah, what would TikTok go for? Like how much? 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.480 What would be like a reasonable fair market value for 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:05.440 Elon Musk to pay. 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.440 So I believe our analysts at Bloomberg have pegged the 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.680 value of the US business. You know, the US version 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.319 of TikTok is somewhere between forty and fifty billion dollars. 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:17.160 So this is not the kind of thing that you 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.000 just like pop over to the bank and withdraw from 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.679 your savings account to make this thing happen. So I 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.920 do think there, you know, that is a probably significant hurdle. 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.440 You could imagine perhaps the Chinese government again if the 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:31.839 if it ultimately comes down to them saying, hey, this 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.880 is a deal, we really want this guy to have this. 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.600 Maybe they give him a sweetheart deal, right, because they 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.920 know in return they're buying sort of a relationship with 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.560 Elon Musk that's even greater than the one, as you 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:44.560 mentioned that they already have. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.600 I mean, you're using a lot of language that is 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.160 going to set off alarm bells with critics, right, I mean, 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:56.360 the prospect of this hugely successful social media company just 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.599 being handed to Elon Musk, a politically connected both to 0:09:59.880 --> 0:10:01.720 the the leaders of both countries, Like, I mean, this 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:04.559 sounds like just a I don't even want to bring 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.200 up anti trust, but like hugely problematic in terms of 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:10.599 self dealing, in terms of all the concerns that supposedly 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.199 prompted Elon Muck to buy Twitter in the first place. 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.000 Yeah, well, I want to be clear, like I'm sort 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:21.280 of a game scenario planning here, right. I Like what 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.000 we know is in the story, which is what we 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:24.920 talked about at the very beginning, Max, which is like, 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.400 these discussions are happening at the top levels of the 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:30.600 Chinese government. That's really where we are right now, right. 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.480 Everything else is sort of like a hypothetical situation. So 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:35.320 I do want to be clear about that. But I 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.520 also think it's fair for people to say, WHOA, this 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.959 feels a little bit questionable, This feels like a little 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.160 bit you know, maybe even scary, right, because it's not 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:47.439 as we've talked about on this pod, and as y'all 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.880 have covered much closer even than I have, Like, Elon 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.440 is someone who has relationships with a lot of world leaders, 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:57.440 not all of them necessarily friends of the United States 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:00.600 in the traditional sense, right, And so I think there 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.280 is a feeling from some of Elon's critics in particular, 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.400 that like this idea of him having any type of 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.880 advanced relationship with the Chinese government could be a questionable thing, 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.880 a questionable decision for the Trump administration to make. So 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:17.319 there's a lot that we don't know. 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:19.559 I mean, what happens now, what are you going to 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.880 be watching over the next week or so as we 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:26.079 proceed to the inauguration and then the deadline for TikTok 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:28.040 potentially being banned from the US. 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.520 Yeah, So, I mean, the most immediate kind of domino 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.320 to fall here is the Supreme Court ruling. So on 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:37.080 Friday of last week, TikTok's lawyers and the US government's 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.560 lawyers argued before the Supreme Court about whether or not 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.240 this band should be upheld. We're still waiting for the 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.000 court to ultimately come up with the decision on that. Now, 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.360 the expectation is that the law will be upheld, the 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.360 ban will be upheld, and we will then get to Sunday, 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.120 this coming Sunday, the nineteenth, and it will go into effect, right, 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.080 and so that will mean Apple and Google and Oracle 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.400 like the people who make it possible for a mayors 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.960 to download this app taking it off of the App Store, 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.640 no longer supporting sort of the cloud infrastructure for TikTok 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:10.200 in the US, and then Monday comes along and President 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.280 Trump is inaugurated, and suddenly now the ball is sort 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.320 of in his court. Right, this app has been banned, 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:17.920 he said he doesn't want to be banned. What can 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.840 he do? We don't entirely know. There's a whole bunch 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:23.559 of different sort of theories as to what he could do. 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.559 Could he tell the Justice Department, hey, don't enforce this ban, right, 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.319 just simply let it happen and don't enforce the law. 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.679 Could he convince you know, Congress to basically, you know, 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.840 somehow reverse this law in some way or tweak it 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.360 so that it's delayed to the point where he can 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.800 try to negotiate. So I think immediately it's Supreme Court, 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:44.600 and then after that it's a lot of we don't know, 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:46.760 right because as the one thing we do know is 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:48.720 that President Trump is a bit of a wild card, 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.640 and so it's hard to sit here and really predict 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:53.160 what he's going to do. But I think we have 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.280 to get through the Supreme Court thing this week to 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.760 really have an idea of what the other options really 0:12:57.800 --> 0:12:58.280 even are. 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:00.640 All Right, Well, we'll be watching Kurt. 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:02.640 I assume we'll be checking in on this, you know, 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.839 as soon as next week, depending on what happens. Thanks 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.480 again for joining us, and yeah. 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:08.760 We'll see you soon, my pleasure. 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:09.120 Thank you. 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.319 All right, let's bring in Josh Green, BusinessWeek's political reporter. 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:19.199 Josh welcome to Elon Inc. 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:20.480 Good to be back with you. 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:25.079 And Dana Hall Elon Musk reporter and podcast regulator. 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:26.559 Dana welcome to Elon Inc. 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.920 Hey, Max, So, Josh, your book, Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:34.240 Donald Trump and the Storming of the Presidency got into 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.240 basically the rise of Steve Bannon and the influence he 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.360 had on Trump and trump Ism. I want to play 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.679 a clip from Bannon's war Room podcast from earlier this 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.280 month in which Bannon a tax Elon, Let's give it 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:47.679 a listen. 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:49.000 This is the United States of America. 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:50.520 We're not gonna be lectured by a bunch of white 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:51.640 guys from South Africa. 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:52.280 Don't need it. 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:54.880 We loving converts. 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.160 But the converts sit in the back and study for 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:01.480 years and year and years to make sure you understand 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.400 the faith, and you understand the nuances of the faith 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.559 and understand how you can internalize the faith. Don't come 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:09.880 up and go to the pulpit in your first week 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:12.520 here and start lecturing people about the way things are 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.560 going to be. If you're gonna do that, we're gonna 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:16.360 get and we're gonna rip your face off. 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:17.200 All right. 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.920 So those are some that's some tough language from see Bannon. Josh, 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.160 what are the dynamics here? I mean, obviously Bannon doesn't 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.600 mean it literally, but what does he mean? 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.520 I mean, look, Bannon, you know, as I wrote in 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.320 Devil's Part, Bannon was sort of the intellectual architect of 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.480 a lot of trump Ism and kind of maga economics. 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.120 He kind of pulled together this stuff into a philosophy 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.960 and sees himself as the kind of high priest. Is 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:44.920 that is that quote sort of reflected the trouble with 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.360 with Elon from Bannon's standpoint is that he sees him 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.400 as as a threat, but also it's kind of a 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.160 useful idiot in terms of being able to or being 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.560 willing to donate to get Trump elected, to keep him 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.840 in power, to help Republicans. The real fight, though, is 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.040 at the central tension in the new Trump administration is 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.240 shaping up to be between the Bannon camp and the 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.280 Elon camp. That's the way I think of it, the 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:14.440 kind of like analog one point zero populist nationalists, the 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.680 Bannon guys, and the kind of new breed of Silicon 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:22.880 Valley right wing provocateur Elon types, who include a whole 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:27.040 crowd of guys David Zachs, Vivek Ramaswami and others who 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.760 are trying to put their stamp on the incoming Trump administration. 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:36.280 And what Bannon's fulminating anger reflects is that there's a 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.920 big kind of intellectual tug of war going on right 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.920 now for who is going to control Trump, who is 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.560 going to be in Trump's ear, and Bannon is doing 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.000 everything he can to try and ensure that Elon does 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:49.080 not become that guy. 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.000 I mean, these are basically the people who, as they 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.280 see it, built the MAGA movement, and now there's this, 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.080 you know, new guy who put a lot of money up, 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:00.840 but you know, is a newcomer. 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:01.280 Essentially. 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.280 It didn't didn't believe any of this stuff until very recently. 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.520 I mean, Dana, I'm kind of curious watching this and 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:13.360 particularly watching Bannon bring up critiques that we've heard of 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.320 Elon Musk, but often from the left, like what do 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.200 you make of of what we've seen so far. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:20.920 Well, I have to admit, and I'm Josh, I'm so 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:22.920 glad you're here, Like I've kind of lost the plot 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.360 on this whole like Bannon Musk feud because I sort 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:28.720 of see it as like, Okay, you've got like Bannon 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:31.840 and Laura Lumer and all these people who were like 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.560 very central to Trump rise in twenty sixteen, like in 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.240 one camp, and then you have Elon and David Sachs 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:40.760 and all these other kind of tech bros. Is like 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.280 the Johnny cum latelies right, who are like yeah, right, 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:46.760 And so there's like a little bit of like wait, 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.479 like we were here first, like attention about the newcomers. 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.200 But isn't it also this big fight about immigration? 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:54.120 Like I thought that the. 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:58.720 Whole H one B visa issue was central to this feud, 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.960 and I'm still a little stuck on, like I don't 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.320 really know what Bannon thinks about H one B visas. 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.359 I mean, clearly Musk is very pro H one B visa. 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.959 His companies have thrived because of a lot of talent 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.600 from elsewhere. You know, Musk always says that like it's 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:16.399 like if you're fielding an NBA team. You want to 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:18.000 be able to hire the best of the brightest. And 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.320 so could you maybe walk us through a little bit 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.119 why immigration is kind of central to this beef. 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:24.520 Yeah. Absolutely. 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.600 I Mean the way, like one way to think about 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.040 it is that like there's going to be a year's 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.439 long fight now in the Republican Party over what Trump 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:34.880 does and what he stands for, and the fight over 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:37.800 H one b Visas. It's kind of like the first 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:40.359 shots at Fort Sumter in the Civil War, like this, 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:42.440 this is where the fight's happening first. It's going to 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.760 spread to a lot of other areas. So Bannon's complain 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:48.720 on H one b Visas is he is a nativist. 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.199 He is a you know, populous nationalist, is what he 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:55.040 calls himself. And he believes that immigrants should not be 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.760 allowed to come in, including high skilled immigrants, to take these 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.720 jobs that ought to go to Americans instead. And one 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.920 little twist Bannon has added lately, he spent four months 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.080 in prison and befriended a lot of black and Hispanic 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:12.880 folks and said, you know, if Elon weren't importing Indian workers, 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.960 these are abandoned words, you know, guys, like I was 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.800 hanging out with in prison, Hispanics Blacks would have the 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:22.400 opportunities to become trained and hired as engineers. And essentially 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:27.520 Bannon's contention is that Elon and his crowd are screwing 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.840 over hardworking American citizens and privileging foreigners because doing so 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.160 makes it cheaper and more profitable for them to run 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.720 their businesses. And to me, like the key quote from Bannon, 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.120 he gave an interview I think it was to Bright 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:43.600 Barton News about a week ago that really kind of 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.240 laid out his beef with Elon. He said, quote, he 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.560 will do anything to make sure that any of his 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.879 companies is protected or has a better deal, or he 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:56.200 makes more money his aggregation of wealth and then through 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:57.440 wealth power. 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:59.760 That's what Elon is focused on Bannon. 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.120 And I think that that sort of reflects what's at 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.520 the heart of a lot of these fights that Bannon 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.240 thinks Elon isn't a true believer and he's going to 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.360 have this sort of death match with Elon to try 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.280 and prevail and hold on to his influencer Trump. 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.040 I mean the thing to me, h one b has 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.680 been basically like a tech lobbyist issue for a really 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.600 long time because it's a way for big tech companies 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.640 to get less expensive engineers, and big tech companies, including 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.359 Elon Musk right, have been complaining that they don't have 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:34.160 enough engineers or whatever. So like, it's kind of interesting 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.760 because as much as Elon has adopted these sort of 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.160 like super hard right positions, you know, at the same 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.240