1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 2: Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 3 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 2: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: controlled by one man. 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate. 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 2: He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: it will be different. 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 3: He'll vote Republican. 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 10 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: on him. 11 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 4: Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: Welcome to Elon, Inc. 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 5: Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, January fourteenth. 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 5: I'm Max Chafkin in for David Papadopolis, who's. 16 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: On vacation this week. We had big news last night. 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 5: TikTok is reportedly under consideration by Chinese officials to be 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 5: sold or handed off. We're not totally sure what the 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 5: terms of this would look like to none other than 20 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 5: Elon Musk. We're gonna talk about the business implications, the 21 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 5: political implications, and of course the implications for teenagers everywhere. 22 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 5: And then, with the inauguration less than a week away, 23 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 5: we're going to talk about the brewing feud between Steve Bannon, 24 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 5: the kind of right wing influencer and podcaster, former Trump 25 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 5: administration official, and good old Elon. And to do this, 26 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 5: we've got a great cast of characters for you. Kurt 27 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 5: Wagner is joining us. He is Bloomberg's social media reporter 28 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 5: and my favorite high school quarterback. 29 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: Hey, Kurt, i'm ax. 30 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 2: Thanks. 31 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 5: And later Dana Hall, our Elon Musk reporter, and Josh Green, 32 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 5: Bloomberg BusinessWeek political reporter, will be joining us to talk 33 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 5: about political stuff. 34 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: But Kurt, let's start here. There's some news. 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 5: But to people who listen to the Elon podcast, it 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 5: would have been a little bit familiar. I want to 37 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 5: play a little bit of tape from our end of 38 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 5: the year, our New Year's Eve special. 39 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 3: I just don't see that being that beneficial for Elon, 40 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 3: like to have true social I think it's more likely 41 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,119 Speaker 3: that he will will somehow end up with the US 42 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: version of TikTok Kurt. 43 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 5: This is why Sarah Fryar makes a big bucks, Am 44 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 5: I right? I mean she called it. 45 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 6: Yeah. 46 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 4: The pay grade is high for Sarah Fryer for this 47 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 4: very reason. Right, She is seeing around corners that you 48 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 4: and I can only wish wish to be seen around. 49 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 5: Max Okay, So Sarah was suggesting that Elon Musk could 50 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 5: somehow take over TikTok. Why don't she just break down 51 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 5: what Bloomberg reported last night. I mean this was a 52 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 5: big this is big news in the world of business. 53 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, so we are admittedly still aways from Sarah's prediction 54 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 4: coming true. But what we reported was that senior officials 55 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 4: in China are basically game planning what do we do 56 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 4: if the TikTok ban goes into effect, right, which is 57 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 4: supposed to happen this coming Sunday. And one of the 58 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 4: options that has been discussed was the idea that, well, 59 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 4: maybe Elon Musk would be a reasonable owner for this platform, right, 60 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 4: And it kind of makes sense in a number of 61 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 4: ways if you want it to. One is that he 62 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 4: obviously already owns X. He has a very close relationship 63 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 4: with incoming President Trump, so it, you know, in all likelihood, 64 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 4: would be approved by the incoming administration, which is one 65 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 4: part of this equation. But then he also has business 66 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 4: in China, right with Tesla, and he has a huge 67 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 4: sort of foot in that country. And if you are 68 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 4: the Chinese government and you say well, is there someone 69 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 4: we want to curry favor with? 70 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: Right? 71 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,119 Speaker 4: Is there somebody that we want to if this has 72 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 4: to be sold, if that's the only way for this 73 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 4: thing to exist, is Elon Musk perhaps the most stomachable 74 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 4: option for them, in part because they also maybe get 75 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 4: some leverage in return, and so for all those reasons, 76 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 4: it is sort of being discussed as a possibility. I 77 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 4: want to be clear that this is not necessarily going 78 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 4: to happen. That there's a whole bunch of other things 79 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 4: that would have to happen for this to ever actually 80 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 4: come to fruition. But again, senior officials in China sort 81 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 4: of thinking about Elon as a possible owner of TikTok 82 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 4: as a possibility. 83 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, just to. 84 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 5: Build on that for a second. So Number one, Byte 85 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 5: Dance the parent company of TikTok. They are not directly 86 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 5: controlled by the Chinese government. There is some question about 87 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 5: whether just because Chinese officials are talking about this would 88 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 5: Bite Dance to it, although, as as many people know, 89 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 5: China's government has a huge amount of sway on its businesses. 90 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 5: TikTok has actually called this report quote pure fiction. Responding 91 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 5: to a different news outlet, Kurt has Elon commented on 92 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 5: this yet, I. 93 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: Haven't seen him comment, but he did. 94 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 4: Someone posted on Twitter last night that was like, here's 95 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 4: all the TikTok users when Elon buys the company, and 96 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 4: it was all these people like screaming and crying and 97 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 4: being all sad. And Elon just responded to that tweet 98 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 4: with the laughing face emoji, right, like he he didn't 99 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 4: necessarily come out and say like this is crazy, I 100 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 4: would never buy it. He's sort of like leaned into 101 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 4: the joke, if you will. But no, you know, we 102 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 4: tried to reach out to Elon before publishing the story, 103 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 4: as you can imagine, Max, we did not hear back 104 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 4: from him or his representatives. So but I think what 105 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 4: you just said is important, right, which is the role 106 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,119 Speaker 4: of byte Dance and all this So ByteDance, of course 107 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 4: is the Chinese parent company of TikTok, and it has 108 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 4: said it has no intention of selling this business. Now, 109 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 4: I think where the Chinese government comes in is if 110 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 4: they're the only way forward for TikTok to exist in 111 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 4: the US is a sale, and if they want to 112 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 4: sell it with the algorithm included, right, So that's the 113 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 4: technology that sort of determines what everyone. 114 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 2: Says, that type of sale, with that. 115 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 4: Type of technology changing hands would actually require Chinese government approval. 116 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 2: Kurt, how unusual is this? 117 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 5: I mean, just from the outside, you know, a world 118 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 5: power sort of discussing handing one of the most successful 119 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 5: companies to a foreign politically connected executive, Like it sounds 120 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 5: so crazy, But I mean, like how I guess, I 121 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 5: guess question is, like how crazy is this? Obviously Sarah 122 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 5: Fryar predicted it, so it can't be that crazy, but still. 123 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I'm not familiar of sort of a 124 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 4: similar situation, certainly in like the consumer tech space, right, Like, 125 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 4: nothing like this has ever happened from a social networking standpoint. 126 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 4: I can say that with a lot of confidence. I'm 127 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 4: not like a geopolitical expert when it comes to China 128 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 4: and trade and and all that stuff. So perhaps there 129 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 4: have been other businesses where there's been discussions like this, 130 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 4: But I think this sort of you know, is exemplifies 131 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 4: a little bit about like what is so unique about 132 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 4: our current moment in time, right like President Trump coming 133 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 4: back to office and all of sort of the unusual 134 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 4: or untraditional methods that he operates under. Elon Musk and 135 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 4: all of the sort of chaos that usually comes with him. 136 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 4: This and that you know, we've been talking about for 137 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 4: four years, but now is finally kind of coming together 138 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 4: at this exact moment in time, when when there's a 139 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 4: transition of power. So I do think that this is 140 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 4: very unique, very you know, interesting time for both tech 141 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 4: but also geopolitics. As you point out, I can't really 142 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 4: think of anything off the top of my head at 143 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 4: least that that sort of rivals this moment for me. 144 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 5: Well, and as you hinted at earlier there, it's probably 145 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 5: it's hard to think of another prominent American chief executive 146 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 5: officer who is as close to China as Elon Musk. Right, 147 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 5: he enjoys a very good relationship with Beijing. Tesla was 148 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 5: able to open a car factory, you know, quicker than 149 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 5: anybody else. They changed the rules effectively for ownership of 150 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 5: car factories for Elon Musk, So like you can imagine 151 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 5: him being a person that both Beijing could get comfortable 152 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 5: with and Trump. Kurt, what about Elon and TikTok. I 153 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 5: mean he has said in the past, unless I'm mistaken, 154 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 5: and that he wanted X to be more like TikTok, 155 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 5: So it seems like there's really a lot of synergy 156 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 5: with this proposal. 157 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 158 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 4: I mean I think if you're Elon, this is like 159 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 4: the biggest coup of all time, right, Like you suddenly 160 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 4: get one of the most valuable, most exciting, up and 161 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 4: coming social networks sort of gift wrapped to you. 162 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: Right. 163 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 4: And I think one element of this that we just 164 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 4: do not know is, let's pretend this all these stars 165 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 4: align max, right, and the Chinese government says, hey, we 166 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 4: want Elon to own this, And Trump says, hey, that 167 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 4: solves our national security concerns. And Elon says, great. What 168 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 4: does a deal actually look like here? 169 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: Right? 170 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 4: Because we know that he is, you know, has a 171 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 4: ton of loans that he has taken out over the 172 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 4: years that use his Tesla stock as collateral. He's obviously 173 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 4: the richest man in the world, no doubt he could 174 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 4: find go out and find banks and other investors to 175 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 4: help him finance something like this. But as we saw 176 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 4: with the Twitter deal, it's not always like quite as 177 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 4: easy as like, oh, he's super rich, he can totally 178 00:08:58,520 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 4: do this thing. 179 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, what would TikTok go for? Like how much? 180 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 5: What would be like a reasonable fair market value for 181 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 5: Elon Musk to pay. 182 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 4: So I believe our analysts at Bloomberg have pegged the 183 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 4: value of the US business. You know, the US version 184 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 4: of TikTok is somewhere between forty and fifty billion dollars. 185 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 4: So this is not the kind of thing that you 186 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 4: just like pop over to the bank and withdraw from 187 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 4: your savings account to make this thing happen. So I 188 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 4: do think there, you know, that is a probably significant hurdle. 189 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 4: You could imagine perhaps the Chinese government again if the 190 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 4: if it ultimately comes down to them saying, hey, this 191 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 4: is a deal, we really want this guy to have this. 192 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 4: Maybe they give him a sweetheart deal, right, because they 193 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 4: know in return they're buying sort of a relationship with 194 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 4: Elon Musk that's even greater than the one, as you 195 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 4: mentioned that they already have. 196 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 5: I mean, you're using a lot of language that is 197 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 5: going to set off alarm bells with critics, right, I mean, 198 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 5: the prospect of this hugely successful social media company just 199 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 5: being handed to Elon Musk, a politically connected both to 200 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 5: the the leaders of both countries, Like, I mean, this 201 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 5: sounds like just a I don't even want to bring 202 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 5: up anti trust, but like hugely problematic in terms of 203 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,599 Speaker 5: self dealing, in terms of all the concerns that supposedly 204 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 5: prompted Elon Muck to buy Twitter in the first place. 205 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I want to be clear, like I'm sort 206 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 4: of a game scenario planning here, right. I Like what 207 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 4: we know is in the story, which is what we 208 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 4: talked about at the very beginning, Max, which is like, 209 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 4: these discussions are happening at the top levels of the 210 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 4: Chinese government. That's really where we are right now, right. 211 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 4: Everything else is sort of like a hypothetical situation. So 212 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 4: I do want to be clear about that. But I 213 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 4: also think it's fair for people to say, WHOA, this 214 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 4: feels a little bit questionable, This feels like a little 215 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 4: bit you know, maybe even scary, right, because it's not 216 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 4: as we've talked about on this pod, and as y'all 217 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 4: have covered much closer even than I have, Like, Elon 218 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 4: is someone who has relationships with a lot of world leaders, 219 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 4: not all of them necessarily friends of the United States 220 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 4: in the traditional sense, right, And so I think there 221 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 4: is a feeling from some of Elon's critics in particular, 222 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 4: that like this idea of him having any type of 223 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 4: advanced relationship with the Chinese government could be a questionable thing, 224 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 4: a questionable decision for the Trump administration to make. So 225 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 4: there's a lot that we don't know. 226 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 5: I mean, what happens now, what are you going to 227 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 5: be watching over the next week or so as we 228 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 5: proceed to the inauguration and then the deadline for TikTok 229 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 5: potentially being banned from the US. 230 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, So, I mean, the most immediate kind of domino 231 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 4: to fall here is the Supreme Court ruling. So on 232 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 4: Friday of last week, TikTok's lawyers and the US government's 233 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 4: lawyers argued before the Supreme Court about whether or not 234 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 4: this band should be upheld. We're still waiting for the 235 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 4: court to ultimately come up with the decision on that. Now, 236 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 4: the expectation is that the law will be upheld, the 237 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 4: ban will be upheld, and we will then get to Sunday, 238 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 4: this coming Sunday, the nineteenth, and it will go into effect, right, 239 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 4: and so that will mean Apple and Google and Oracle 240 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 4: like the people who make it possible for a mayors 241 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 4: to download this app taking it off of the App Store, 242 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 4: no longer supporting sort of the cloud infrastructure for TikTok 243 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 4: in the US, and then Monday comes along and President 244 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 4: Trump is inaugurated, and suddenly now the ball is sort 245 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 4: of in his court. Right, this app has been banned, 246 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 4: he said he doesn't want to be banned. What can 247 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 4: he do? We don't entirely know. There's a whole bunch 248 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 4: of different sort of theories as to what he could do. 249 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 4: Could he tell the Justice Department, hey, don't enforce this ban, right, 250 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 4: just simply let it happen and don't enforce the law. 251 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 4: Could he convince you know, Congress to basically, you know, 252 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 4: somehow reverse this law in some way or tweak it 253 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 4: so that it's delayed to the point where he can 254 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 4: try to negotiate. So I think immediately it's Supreme Court, 255 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 4: and then after that it's a lot of we don't know, 256 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 4: right because as the one thing we do know is 257 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 4: that President Trump is a bit of a wild card, 258 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 4: and so it's hard to sit here and really predict 259 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 4: what he's going to do. But I think we have 260 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 4: to get through the Supreme Court thing this week to 261 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 4: really have an idea of what the other options really 262 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 4: even are. 263 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: All Right, Well, we'll be watching Kurt. 264 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 5: I assume we'll be checking in on this, you know, 265 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 5: as soon as next week, depending on what happens. Thanks 266 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 5: again for joining us, and yeah. 267 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 4: We'll see you soon, my pleasure. 268 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: Thank you. 269 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 5: All right, let's bring in Josh Green, BusinessWeek's political reporter. 270 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 2: Josh welcome to Elon Inc. 271 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: Good to be back with you. 272 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 5: And Dana Hall Elon Musk reporter and podcast regulator. 273 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 2: Dana welcome to Elon Inc. 274 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 5: Hey, Max, So, Josh, your book, Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, 275 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 5: Donald Trump and the Storming of the Presidency got into 276 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 5: basically the rise of Steve Bannon and the influence he 277 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 5: had on Trump and trump Ism. I want to play 278 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 5: a clip from Bannon's war Room podcast from earlier this 279 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 5: month in which Bannon a tax Elon, Let's give it 280 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 5: a listen. 281 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: This is the United States of America. 282 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 7: We're not gonna be lectured by a bunch of white 283 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 7: guys from South Africa. 284 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: Don't need it. 285 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: We loving converts. 286 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 7: But the converts sit in the back and study for 287 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 7: years and year and years to make sure you understand 288 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 7: the faith, and you understand the nuances of the faith 289 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 7: and understand how you can internalize the faith. Don't come 290 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 7: up and go to the pulpit in your first week 291 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 7: here and start lecturing people about the way things are 292 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 7: going to be. If you're gonna do that, we're gonna 293 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 7: get and we're gonna rip your face off. 294 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: All right. 295 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 5: So those are some that's some tough language from see Bannon. Josh, 296 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 5: what are the dynamics here? I mean, obviously Bannon doesn't 297 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 5: mean it literally, but what does he mean? 298 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 8: I mean, look, Bannon, you know, as I wrote in 299 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 8: Devil's Part, Bannon was sort of the intellectual architect of 300 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 8: a lot of trump Ism and kind of maga economics. 301 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 8: He kind of pulled together this stuff into a philosophy 302 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 8: and sees himself as the kind of high priest. Is 303 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 8: that is that quote sort of reflected the trouble with 304 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 8: with Elon from Bannon's standpoint is that he sees him 305 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 8: as as a threat, but also it's kind of a 306 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 8: useful idiot in terms of being able to or being 307 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 8: willing to donate to get Trump elected, to keep him 308 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 8: in power, to help Republicans. The real fight, though, is 309 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 8: at the central tension in the new Trump administration is 310 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 8: shaping up to be between the Bannon camp and the 311 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 8: Elon camp. That's the way I think of it, the 312 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 8: kind of like analog one point zero populist nationalists, the 313 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 8: Bannon guys, and the kind of new breed of Silicon 314 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 8: Valley right wing provocateur Elon types, who include a whole 315 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 8: crowd of guys David Zachs, Vivek Ramaswami and others who 316 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 8: are trying to put their stamp on the incoming Trump administration. 317 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 8: And what Bannon's fulminating anger reflects is that there's a 318 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 8: big kind of intellectual tug of war going on right 319 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 8: now for who is going to control Trump, who is 320 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 8: going to be in Trump's ear, and Bannon is doing 321 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 8: everything he can to try and ensure that Elon does 322 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 8: not become that guy. 323 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 5: I mean, these are basically the people who, as they 324 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 5: see it, built the MAGA movement, and now there's this, 325 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 5: you know, new guy who put a lot of money up, 326 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 5: but you know, is a newcomer. 327 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: Essentially. 328 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 5: It didn't didn't believe any of this stuff until very recently. 329 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 5: I mean, Dana, I'm kind of curious watching this and 330 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 5: particularly watching Bannon bring up critiques that we've heard of 331 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 5: Elon Musk, but often from the left, like what do 332 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 5: you make of of what we've seen so far. 333 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 6: Well, I have to admit, and I'm Josh, I'm so 334 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 6: glad you're here, Like I've kind of lost the plot 335 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 6: on this whole like Bannon Musk feud because I sort 336 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 6: of see it as like, Okay, you've got like Bannon 337 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 6: and Laura Lumer and all these people who were like 338 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 6: very central to Trump rise in twenty sixteen, like in 339 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 6: one camp, and then you have Elon and David Sachs 340 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 6: and all these other kind of tech bros. Is like 341 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 6: the Johnny cum latelies right, who are like yeah, right, 342 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 6: And so there's like a little bit of like wait, 343 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,479 Speaker 6: like we were here first, like attention about the newcomers. 344 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 6: But isn't it also this big fight about immigration? 345 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 3: Like I thought that the. 346 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 6: Whole H one B visa issue was central to this feud, 347 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 6: and I'm still a little stuck on, like I don't 348 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 6: really know what Bannon thinks about H one B visas. 349 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 6: I mean, clearly Musk is very pro H one B visa. 350 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,959 Speaker 6: His companies have thrived because of a lot of talent 351 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 6: from elsewhere. You know, Musk always says that like it's 352 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 6: like if you're fielding an NBA team. You want to 353 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 6: be able to hire the best of the brightest. And 354 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 6: so could you maybe walk us through a little bit 355 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 6: why immigration is kind of central to this beef. 356 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. 357 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 8: I Mean the way, like one way to think about 358 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 8: it is that like there's going to be a year's 359 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 8: long fight now in the Republican Party over what Trump 360 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 8: does and what he stands for, and the fight over 361 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 8: H one b Visas. It's kind of like the first 362 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 8: shots at Fort Sumter in the Civil War, like this, 363 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 8: this is where the fight's happening first. It's going to 364 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 8: spread to a lot of other areas. So Bannon's complain 365 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 8: on H one b Visas is he is a nativist. 366 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 8: He is a you know, populous nationalist, is what he 367 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 8: calls himself. And he believes that immigrants should not be 368 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 8: allowed to come in, including high skilled immigrants, to take these 369 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 8: jobs that ought to go to Americans instead. And one 370 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 8: little twist Bannon has added lately, he spent four months 371 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 8: in prison and befriended a lot of black and Hispanic 372 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 8: folks and said, you know, if Elon weren't importing Indian workers, 373 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 8: these are abandoned words, you know, guys, like I was 374 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 8: hanging out with in prison, Hispanics Blacks would have the 375 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 8: opportunities to become trained and hired as engineers. And essentially 376 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 8: Bannon's contention is that Elon and his crowd are screwing 377 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 8: over hardworking American citizens and privileging foreigners because doing so 378 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 8: makes it cheaper and more profitable for them to run 379 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 8: their businesses. And to me, like the key quote from Bannon, 380 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 8: he gave an interview I think it was to Bright 381 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 8: Barton News about a week ago that really kind of 382 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 8: laid out his beef with Elon. He said, quote, he 383 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 8: will do anything to make sure that any of his 384 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 8: companies is protected or has a better deal, or he 385 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 8: makes more money his aggregation of wealth and then through 386 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 8: wealth power. 387 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: That's what Elon is focused on Bannon. 388 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 8: And I think that that sort of reflects what's at 389 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 8: the heart of a lot of these fights that Bannon 390 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 8: thinks Elon isn't a true believer and he's going to 391 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 8: have this sort of death match with Elon to try 392 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 8: and prevail and hold on to his influencer Trump. 393 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 5: I mean the thing to me, h one b has 394 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 5: been basically like a tech lobbyist issue for a really 395 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 5: long time because it's a way for big tech companies 396 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 5: to get less expensive engineers, and big tech companies, including 397 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 5: Elon Musk right, have been complaining that they don't have 398 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 5: enough engineers or whatever. So like, it's kind of interesting 399 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 5: because as much as Elon has adopted these sort of 400 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 5: like super hard right positions, you know, at the same 401 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 5: time this is going on, he's banging the drum on 402 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 5: X about Tommy Robinson, who's you know, this this very 403 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 5: far right wing British guy who's in prison now, Like 404 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 5: he's adopting some issues that are like kind of just normal, 405 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 5: like help out my tech company type stuff. 406 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: And that is what I mean, that's what Bannon's keying 407 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: in on. 408 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 8: Yeah, And I mean the weird thing about all this 409 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 8: is I did a story for Bloomberg News last week 410 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 8: as part of a team that looked at Elon trying 411 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 8: to extend his political influence into Europe, getting involved in 412 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 8: politics there, and I ended up interviewing Bannon for the piece, 413 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 8: and Bannon supports what Elon is doing in Europe. He said, 414 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 8: you know, the enemy of my enemy is my is 415 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 8: my friend, and therefore I'm four square behind Elon going 416 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 8: after these kind of center left snooty European governments, and 417 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 8: I hope he puts as much you know, money and 418 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 8: manpower and tech savvy into those as he did into 419 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 8: the US election. So, you know, I think that Bannon 420 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 8: views Elon as a threat, but he also views him 421 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 8: as an instrument that he'd like to be able to 422 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 8: wield in a lot of political fights, both in the 423 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 8: US and abroad. 424 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 6: Didn't Bannon kind of walk back some of his comments 425 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 6: today at some kind of political event, you know, he's like, well, 426 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 6: he like deserves a seat, you know, he's urged a 427 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 6: seat at the table because he strokes this big check. 428 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 429 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 8: Well, look, Ben, let's let's let's back up a little bit. 430 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 8: We talked about this on this podcast before. And be clear, 431 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 8: Bannon was wrong about Elon Musk. I mean he told 432 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 8: me a year ago, try two years ago, that Elon 433 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 8: was never going to be a big player in right 434 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 8: wing maga politics because he was a cheap skate, as 435 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 8: Bannon put it, he'll never stroke a check. Well, Elon 436 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 8: ended up stroking a lot of big checks during the 437 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 8: last presidential race, and his promise to keep stroking them 438 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 8: for all sorts of Republican incumbents Republican challengers to help 439 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 8: Trump and Republicans maintain a grip on power. 440 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: So Bannon has had to backpedal a little bit on that. 441 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 8: And the fact of the matter is that the fact 442 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 8: that Elon is willing to do this has really bought 443 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 8: him a prime position in Trump's inner circle. Like I 444 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 8: expected Trump to very quickly tire of Elon and his 445 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 8: annex and you get a lot of leaks from folks, 446 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 8: and I've heard this myself along the lines of, you know, 447 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 8: Trump doesn't want any co stars. Trump is sick of Elond. 448 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 8: I had a source in the administration the other day 449 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 8: say that, you know, Trump asked him if Elon was 450 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 8: on the spectrum, And so you can tell there's an 451 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 8: annoyance factor there. And yet because Elon is both willing 452 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 8: to give money and has this big and an influential 453 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 8: platform in Twitter and X, you know, Trump doesn't want 454 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 8: to throw him overboard. And so he's there and he's influential, 455 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 8: and he's someone that Bannon is going to have to 456 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 8: contend with. 457 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 5: To me, one of the things that's been most interesting 458 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 5: about this is the extent to which Bannon and like 459 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 5: Laura Lumer and some. 460 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 2: Of these right wing figures. 461 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 5: They kind of have Elon's number, Like they're bringing up 462 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 5: issues that I think sting a little bit right, Like 463 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 5: Bannon and Lumer have brought up issues around China, you know, 464 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 5: Elon's proximity to Beijing, Elon's like the history around Tesla. 465 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 5: One of the things that Bannon has said is that, 466 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 5: you know, Elon's goal is to become the world's first trillionaire. 467 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 5: And Dan, I'm kind of curious, like, do you buy 468 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 5: that as a motivation? Is that is that his goal is? 469 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 5: Is Steve Bannon? I mean, he's a perceptive guy. He 470 00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 5: might be right about this. 471 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, but I think that people need to recognize that, 472 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 6: like Musk is amassing all this wealth for his number 473 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 6: one goal, which is to get to Mars, and like 474 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 6: all of his wealth accumulation is really in service of 475 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 6: the Mars mission, which has been like the animating force 476 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 6: in his life since he was like twelve years old 477 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 6: or thirteen or whatever. And read Isaac Asimov. I mean, 478 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 6: all everything that Elon does is about getting to Mars. 479 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 6: He is a man in a hurry. He really wants 480 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 6: to get to Mars before he dies. He would like to, 481 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 6: you know, so It's like all of this accumulation is 482 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 6: in the service of that. It's not like to be 483 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 6: rich just to be rich. It's like to be rich 484 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 6: so that he can colonize another planet. And I think 485 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 6: that like you're looking at Tesla's stock price, and you're 486 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 6: looking at the valuation of SpaceX, and you're looking at now, 487 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 6: you know, as we just had in our first segment, 488 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 6: the possibility that must could buy TikTok at the US, 489 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 6: and you're looking at you know, all of his other companies, 490 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 6: and Yeah, I could totally see it. I would be 491 00:23:54,920 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 6: shocked if anyone else became the first trillion air besides him. 492 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 5: So, Josh, let's talk about Doge for a second. I 493 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 5: mean this relates to the banned stuff. We've seen a 494 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 5: couple of reports come out around Doge, one in the 495 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 5: New York Times last night suggesting that Elon would have 496 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 5: office space in the Executive Office building. Now I'm curious, 497 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 5: just one of the things that Bannon has been railing 498 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 5: about is kind of trying to keep Musk from having 499 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 5: too much influence over Trump. 500 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 2: Is this good real estate or bad real estate? 501 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 8: Like? 502 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 5: How good is it to have an office in the 503 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 5: Executive Office building, Like, what does this tell us about 504 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 5: how much influence Elon has and how important Doge is, 505 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 5: at least in the mind of Trump and the people 506 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 5: who are close to him. 507 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 8: Well, let's back, it's good to have that kind of 508 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 8: real estate because it means you're a short walk away 509 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 8: from the West Wing and the president. And fights over 510 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 8: real estate and access go back probably a couple hundred years. 511 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 8: In US politics, every administration is you know, everybody is 512 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 8: jockeying to get close to the president. And that's especially 513 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 8: true when you have a president like Donald Trump or 514 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 8: like Ronald Reagan, who's particularly prone to listening to the 515 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,479 Speaker 8: advice of the last person to have his ear. And 516 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 8: so Bannon's big fear. We talked about this the other day. 517 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 8: He said, mark my words, Elon is not going to 518 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 8: get a blue pass to the White House. A blue 519 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 8: pass is the best pass. It gives you all access, 520 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 8: it gives you drop in privileges and the president of 521 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 8: the Oval Office. Bannon doesn't want that to happen because 522 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 8: he knows that if Elon is sitting there talking in 523 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 8: Trump's ear, then Elon is the one with influence and 524 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 8: Bannon is not. 525 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 5: Wait, so if you have the office in the Executive 526 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 5: Office building. Do you get the blue pass or is 527 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 5: that Are there levels here? 528 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: No, that's separate. 529 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 8: Look, the Executive Office Building is the building kind of 530 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 8: like it's a short walk from the West Wing, but 531 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 8: it's not an office in the West Wing. I mean, 532 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 8: what you ideally want to have is what Bannon had 533 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 8: when Trump was first selected in twenty seventeen. That's in 534 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 8: office in the West wing of the White House, you know, 535 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 8: ten feet from the Oval office, where you can kind 536 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 8: of drop in and you're talking to the president all day. 537 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: You can control the paper flow of what. 538 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 8: He sees, presuming the president reads, which I guess we 539 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 8: shouldn't presume anything, but in a normal White House, that's 540 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 8: that's what you want, is you want to be able 541 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 8: to control the flow of information. And that's the big 542 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 8: concern that Bannon has with Elon that if he's allowed 543 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 8: to be in Trump's inner orbit to have his ear, 544 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 8: then he's going to convince Trump. As Trump said, you 545 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 8: know a couple of weeks ago, I think that every 546 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 8: foreign college graduate in the US should have a visa 547 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 8: staple to his diploma. That's the kind of language that 548 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 8: Steve Bannon and his ilk have nightmares about that's the 549 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 8: sort of thing that Elon's pushing for and that a 550 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 8: lot of other people frankly would love. 551 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: To have him. 552 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's tech lobbyist language. 553 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: Well, tech lobbyist language. 554 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,959 Speaker 8: And you know, look, a lot of kind of you know, 555 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 8: pro business folks on the left and the right would 556 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 8: love to have you know, more foreign educated students stay 557 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 8: in the US help grow US productivity. But it's absolutely 558 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 8: not what a Steve Bannon or a Steven. 559 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 1: Miller wants to have. 560 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 8: And so the fact that Doze is going to be 561 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 8: in the Executive Office building means like, you know, it's 562 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 8: sort of a formal designation. You're part of this administration, 563 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 8: and you're very close to the West wing, but you're 564 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 8: not all the way into the West wing. So there's 565 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 8: still gonna be a question of is Elon going to 566 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 8: like do what normal EOB workers do and like get 567 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 8: your coffee at Starbucks every morning and sort of trudge 568 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 8: up to your office and work there all day. I 569 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 8: kind of doubt it, So, you know, I wouldn't read 570 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 8: too much meaning into like where their office space is 571 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 8: going to be. But you know, again, it's another kind 572 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 8: of like move on the chess board of Elon trying 573 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 8: to get closer to Trump and Bannon trying to checkmate 574 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 8: him and sort of knock all his pieces off the table. 575 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: It isn't. 576 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 6: I mean, Elon is close to Trump. Like Elon has 577 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 6: been camped out at mar A Lago, like renting some 578 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 6: little cottage like right there in Palm Beach. He's like 579 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 6: constantly flying back and forth. He's been at mari A 580 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 6: Lago like ever since the election, and he'll probably be 581 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 6: at inauguration on Monday, I would assume, Like, and they 582 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 6: talk to each other directly, Like there's no intermediary between 583 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 6: Elon and Donald. They like are texting each other and 584 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 6: talking to each other all the time. So like, isn't 585 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 6: Elon Musk closer to Trump than Bannon is at this point? 586 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? 587 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 8: Look, you know, I think what happens when a president 588 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 8: goes into the White House is that the situation changes. 589 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 8: The people around him are very very tightly controlled, not 590 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 8: just by the Secret Service, but you know, if Trump 591 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 8: needs to go down to the situation room, like Elon 592 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 8: can't just sort of follow him in. 593 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: There are rules that even Trump and. 594 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 8: Elon can't flout, you know, And a lot of the 595 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 8: challenge for Susie Wiles, President Trump's incoming chief of staff 596 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 8: is going to be and this is true in the 597 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 8: last Trump administration, controlling who has access to the president. 598 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 8: If you let enough crazies in there, if you let 599 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 8: Laura Lumer in there, if you let Rudy Giuliani in there, 600 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 8: if you let all these kind of wacko election denihilists 601 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 8: you know who were in there kind of causing chaos 602 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 8: last time around, the things pretty quickly go off the rails. 603 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 8: And that's not what the kind of serious people in 604 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 8: trus Orbit want to happen. It's also not what like 605 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 8: Bannon and the MAGA hardcore people want to happen. So 606 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 8: it's not going to be quite as easy for Elon 607 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 8: to drop in on Trump in the White House as 608 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 8: it is in mar A Lago, where there's kind of 609 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 8: like an open door policy and any rich person or 610 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 8: celebrity it can just kind of come trapesing in and 611 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 8: shout up the President. 612 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: I think it'll be a little tougher this summer. 613 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 5: Else, I just want you to know, both of you, 614 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 5: you have access to me unfettered. Anytime to Max, I 615 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 5: will I will pick up the phone, the blue pass 616 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 5: to my intellect. 617 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 2: Finally, we're going to have an update from the world 618 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: of sports E sports. 619 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 5: Actually, we talked about Musk's very, very high ranking in 620 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 5: the game Diablo. For Josh this may come as news 621 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 5: to you, but he has apparently spent a huge amount 622 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 5: of time. 623 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 2: Playing this video game, playing video games. 624 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 5: He streams video games, and during our year end specials, 625 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 5: Ryan Broderick, our guest, suggested that Musk might have a 626 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 5: ghost player. He might have someone essentially juicing his video 627 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 5: game stats, getting him better in the in the ratings 628 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 5: so he could like look better in. 629 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: The world of Diablo. Now there's news here. 630 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 5: There's a news development, and I just didn't want to 631 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 5: let this podcast end without bringing it up. So Musk 632 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 5: streamed himself playing another game. It's called Path of Exile 633 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 5: two and it basically he was sort of clumsy about 634 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 5: it in a way that sent a bunch of content 635 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 5: creators into a frenzy. The sort of leader of this 636 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 5: of these whistleblowers or would be whistleblowers, was a guy 637 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 5: named Quinn sixty nine TV. Quinn sixty nine TV identified 638 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 5: behavior that seemed inconsistent with having reached such a high level, Dana, 639 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 5: I just got to ask you, is Elon Musk doing 640 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 5: video game doping? 641 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: Wow? 642 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 6: Well, you know this is the investigative like reporting line 643 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 6: that I think we have just really put top of 644 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 6: mind as we head into twenty twenty five. I mean, 645 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 6: Elon is a gamer, right, He's always been a video gamer. 646 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 6: Is how he unwinds. 647 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 2: I mean a lot of. 648 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 6: His references are to video games. He is like fundamentally 649 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 6: like a thirteen year old boy in terms of so 650 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 6: much it wouldn't surprise me. But I don't have definitive proof. 651 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 6: And I think that he often plays video games when 652 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 6: he's like on his plane and at weird hours and 653 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 6: he's streaming because he's trying to like gain impressions and 654 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 6: like make X be this big thing. And so there's 655 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 6: a lot of motivations as to why I don't have 656 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 6: definitive proof, just like I don't have definitive proof about 657 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 6: Adrian Dittman. 658 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 5: Josh, if this scandal proves to be true, how damaging 659 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 5: do you think it'll be to the incoming administration? I mean, 660 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 5: is this this is gonna be the thing that finally 661 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 5: does Trump ban after all these years? 662 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, this will be like Watergate for sure. 663 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 5: No. 664 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 8: I love the fact, by the way, that there's like 665 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 8: video game truthers out there kind of like examining his 666 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 8: playing style and drawing these conclusions about what's real and 667 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 8: what's not real. But I don't know, Maybe maybe Congress 668 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 8: can appoint a special panel to investigate and get to 669 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 8: the bottom of this. 670 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, this is one of the problems with 671 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 5: Elon controlling Doge. This would be a perfect problem for 672 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 5: DOGE to tackle. But anyway, Yeah, I tried to dig 673 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 5: into this and honestly did not know enough about the 674 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 5: world of virtual goods to be able to evaluate the claims. 675 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 5: But listeners, we can promise you we will be following 676 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 5: this story, and you know, if you have thoughts about 677 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 5: this or any of the more serious topics we discussed 678 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 5: on the podcast, you can email us Eloninc. At Bloomberg 679 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 5: dot Net. Josh Dana, thank you for being here. 680 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: Thank you. Yes. 681 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 5: This episode was produced by Stacey Wong. Anna Maserakas is 682 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 5: our editor and Rayhan Harmansi, our senior editor. The idea 683 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 5: for this very show also came from Rayhon Blake Maples 684 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 5: handles engineering and Dave Purcell fact checks. Our supervising producer 685 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 5: is Magnus Hendrickson. 686 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: The Elon Inc. 687 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 5: Theme is written and performed by Taka Yazuzawa and Alex Sagiera. 688 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 5: Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman 689 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 5: is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to 690 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 5: Joel Weber and Bradstone. I'm Max Chafkin. If you have 691 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 5: a in it, rate and review our show, it'll help 692 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 5: other listeners find us and we will see you next week.