1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 2: I'm Amy Westervelt. 3 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: We're currently running a series on false solutions, these kind 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: of almost new climate problems that the fossil fuel industry 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: is pawning off as climate solutions in some way. Last 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: week we talked about the role that management consultancies play 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: in formulating and pushing and amplifying and lending credibility to 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: those quote unquote solutions. Today, I have Andy Rowl joining 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: me to talk about a story that he and I 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: worked on about a front group of North American natural 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 1: gas producers who've been involved in creating the idea that 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: liquefied natural gas a fossil fuel, is a green energy solution. 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: Pushing that idea has been really important to getting export 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: terminals built in the US, but also to lobbying European 15 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: politicians to build out more import infrastructure there. When we 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: first started looking into this, there was a name that 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: popped out at me because we had been doing some 18 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: reporting in Pennsylvania on gas a few years back, and 19 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: there was one person that several people talk to us. 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 3: About low drilling recommenced on December ninth, twenty thirteen. The 21 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 3: next day, my dad called Toby Rice, and Toby said, 22 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 3: he get him a hotel room. So they go go 23 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 3: to the hotel room to check in. 24 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 2: No hotel room for us. 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 4: It's just they do what they want to do when 26 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 4: they want to do it. Holly want to go, and 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 4: Toby's making big money. 28 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: And Toby Rice himself is said to more than one person, 29 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: we'll just move. The first year is the worst. We'll 30 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: put you up on hotel for a year. 31 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 4: It was in a springtime. Toby Rice flies over here 32 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 4: in this hellfter you don't have no tail numbers. 33 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 5: I'm not going to be a door mat. 34 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: And never again, especially for Toby Rice, I hope you 35 00:01:58,360 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: sleep well. 36 00:01:58,920 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 4: Toby. 37 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: Toby Rice is the CEO of a company called EQT. 38 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: They were an early fracking company. They're now one of 39 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: the largest liquefied natural gas producers in North America. They 40 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: also recently purchased the controversial Mountain Valley pipeline project, so 41 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 1: they are in charge of that now as well. And 42 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: Toby Rice kind of positions himself as like this young, 43 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: upstart every man who just happens to be an oil CEO. 44 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: He's really into the idea that like he's a millennial 45 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: he's an elder millennial. He calls himself a shaellennial, and 46 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: he's kind of always looking for the thing that's going 47 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: to finally make gas a lucrative, sustainable business because, don't 48 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: forget the fracking guys, Guys like Toby Rice have been 49 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: on a permanent boom and bus cycle for twenty plus years. 50 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: They have never found something that's really made the industry 51 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: work for extended periods of time, and they're kind of 52 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: hoping this LNG boom is going to be it. Rice 53 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 1: and EQT have been leading forces behind this front group 54 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about in this episode and 55 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: lots of other initiatives to lobby both the US government 56 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: and European governments to embrace liquefied natural gas as a 57 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: climate solution. He's also been a big driver behind the 58 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: idea of what the industry calls certified gas or differentiated gas. 59 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: This idea that you can reduce the methane emissions and 60 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: CO two emissions associated with gas that's produced in the 61 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: US and then use that to market it as sort 62 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: of a more environmentally friendly option. The problem with that, 63 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: of course, is the monitoring and auditing of these improvements, 64 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: which has left a lot to be desired. We're going 65 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: to get into all of that and more with journalist 66 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,279 Speaker 1: Andy Rowell. Coming up after this quick break. 67 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 6: Marvel Television's wonder Man, an eight episode series I'm now 68 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 6: streaming on Disney Plus. 69 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: A superhero remake not exactly what we'd expect from an 70 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: ascowinning director Simon Williams audition for one. 71 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: Of Man, I'm gonna need you to sign this, assuming 72 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: you don't have superpowers. 73 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 5: I'll never work again if anyone foun my lips are sealed. 74 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 6: Marvel Television's wonder Man all eight episodes now streaming only 75 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 6: on Disney Plus. 76 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 5: My name is Andy Roll. 77 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 7: I'm a journalist and writer and I'm a contributing editor 78 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 7: at oil Change International. So yeah, and I've been working 79 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 7: and on the fossil fuel industry and oil and climates 80 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 7: since the early nineties, so for quite a long time. 81 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: Now, awesome, what made you first start tuning into Page? 82 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: What were you? What Google or did you have set 83 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 2: up that tipped you off to Page? Initially? 84 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 7: It's suddenly, I mean, you know, we're looking we've been 85 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 7: looking at or oil Change have been looking at a 86 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 7: sort of gas certification and the sort of greenwashing of 87 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 7: the US L and G and gas industry. And then suddenly, 88 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 7: I mean, and of course, like you know, Toby Rice 89 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 7: and EQT they're the you know, they're the largest producer 90 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 7: of natural gas in the in the US. I think 91 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 7: if you if you made EQT a country, there'd be 92 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 7: the twelfth largest gas producing nation. 93 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 5: So they're a big player. And and suddenly, you know. 94 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 7: We are sort of looking a bit at Toby Rice 95 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,239 Speaker 7: and what he's up to, because he's he's very vocal 96 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 7: on this issue. And then sort of looked and think, 97 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 7: hang on a minute, there's there's a new there's a 98 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 7: new sort of organization that's pops up out of nowhere 99 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 7: and called PAGE, the Partnership to Address Global Emissions, and 100 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 7: so so started sort of trying to track what they 101 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 7: were saying, what they were doing, and and sort of 102 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 7: you know, the more the more we looked, the you know, 103 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 7: the more concerned you've got. And it's i mean, it's 104 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 7: pretty obvious. And Page is I mean for anyone who's 105 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 7: sort of looked at sort of you know, the oil 106 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,799 Speaker 7: industry as you well know, like and it's front groups, 107 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 7: and it's messaging and it's greenwashing. Page immediately was like 108 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 7: there was red flag after red flag after red flag. 109 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, they kind of have all the all of the markers, 110 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: starting with the like name that sounds vaguely climate friendly, 111 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, it seems to me like they are, 112 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 2: like Page is, predominantly they're to focus on l G 113 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 2: exports from the US, like that's their their key focus 114 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: versus some of the other front groups that EQT is 115 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: involved with. It's solely focused on permitting reform or things 116 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: like that. This really seems to be expert and particularly 117 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: also lobbying the countries that US producers would be exporting to, 118 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: so not just the US politicians. Is that we think 119 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: that's like an accurate assessment. 120 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 5: I think that's totally accurate. 121 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 7: I mean, it's obvious that they've been targeting Europe, and 122 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 7: you know they've they've been Rice has been over here, 123 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 7: and so has Christrina who works with him, and also 124 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 7: recently we've we've been aware that you know, they've they've 125 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 7: also been targeting Asia. So I mean it is obvious 126 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 7: if you're if you're targeting, if you're working on energ 127 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 7: then Europe and Asia to the two key markets you're 128 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 7: going to target, so very much which looks like Page 129 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 7: is basically a front group or whatever you want to 130 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 7: call it for the for EQT and the lerg industry 131 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 7: to to try and lobby to get exports to greenwash gas, 132 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 7: to tie Europe and potentially Asia into long term contracts, 133 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 7: you know, for decades to come, even though the science 134 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 7: and is saying that, you know, we shouldn't, we can't 135 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 7: be you know, carrying on extracting more fossil fuels, you know, 136 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 7: if he want a Liverpool climate. 137 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: I find Toby Race very interesting because we did some 138 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: reporting like a year or two ago on Pennsylvania and 139 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 2: talked to a bunch of people in one of the 140 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: areas that EQT has really dominated there, and they had 141 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: all these wild stories about him, like showing up at 142 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 2: town halls, and he kind of is has styled himself 143 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: as this like every man, you know, like like he's 144 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 2: just a rough knack who's made it kind of you know, 145 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: and like the image of him meeting with like high 146 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 2: level European officials is like somewhat amusing to me because 147 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: this persona that he has like doesn't doesn't really seem 148 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: at ease in like that kind of setting. Yeah, but 149 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: it's yeah, I don't know, I don't know what you 150 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: think about him as like a character. 151 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 7: Yeah, he looks or he comes always he's trying to 152 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 7: portray an image here that he's the kind of guy 153 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 7: you could go and have a couple of beers with 154 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 7: and watch baseball with, and he just happens to be 155 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 7: one of the well the largest you know, producer of 156 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 7: natural gas in the Europe. 157 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 5: YEA good. 158 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 7: Yeah, So, I mean it's interesting you're saying Pennsylvania and 159 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 7: looking into what EQT there. I mean, there was a 160 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 7: recent investigation by public source. I don't know if you 161 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 7: saw it came out and again, you know, it just 162 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 7: blows away to the green washer or another layer of 163 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 7: the green washing of of page saying that you know, 164 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 7: this this stuff is you know, the greenest whatever he's 165 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 7: calling it, the greenest natural gas or zero carbon. He 166 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 7: can export zero carbon, you know, green gas to Europe. 167 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 7: And actually the reality for folks on the ground, you know, 168 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 7: these could be the guys having a beer with him, 169 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 7: is that like they can't even open their taps without 170 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 7: methin coming out, or you know, you know their water 171 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 7: is polluted with arsenic or barrier. You know, so the 172 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 7: serious problems, you know, with fracking on the ground as 173 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 7: well as you know, I wish we often sort of 174 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 7: forget about if we're talking about sort of the climatic 175 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 7: impact of this industry. 176 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna we're going to get into that a 177 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 2: little bit in this podcast episode and share of that 178 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 2: tape because we never ended up making that season, but 179 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: I have a mountain of tape from people in Pennsylvania 180 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 2: and a number of people. He was the only person 181 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: that I heard multiple different people kind of mentioned. And 182 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: one of the things that we heard repeated over and 183 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 2: over again really was that, you know, he would sort 184 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 2: of show up and because he seems to really want 185 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 2: the local people to like him, you know, he wants 186 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 2: to be accepted. 187 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 8: By by the local community, and so he would show 188 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 8: up and he would be like, if you have any problems, 189 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 8: you know, because people were complaining not only of the 190 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 8: water being contaminated, but the realities of a shale drilling 191 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 8: operation happening, you know, right next to your house are 192 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 8: pretty bleak. 193 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 2: It's like it's like an ongoing earthquake. There's really bright 194 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: lights all the time, and so people were like, I 195 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 2: can't sleep, you know, my pets are being disturbed all 196 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: this stuff, and he would offer to put people up 197 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: in hotels and then they would show up at the 198 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 2: hotel and there would be no reservation and they couldn't 199 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 2: get a hold of them. This was like it was 200 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 2: sort of like a just a recurrent theme in the 201 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: people that we talked to, which I just I find 202 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: it interesting when people are doing sort of small things 203 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: like that that feel very attached to the larger things 204 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: that they're trying to do. 205 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it's interesting in the sense because you know, 206 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 7: if you if you look at I mean quite often 207 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 7: when you look at some of the big players or 208 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 7: let's say the traditional companies that we that we think 209 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,599 Speaker 7: of when when we're investigating all and gas, like the Exons, 210 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 7: the Shells, the BPS, the Chevrons, you know, you wouldn't 211 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 7: expect like the CEO of like Mike Worth from Xon 212 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 7: to sort of rock out of a town hall meeting 213 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 7: to sort of try and justify as operations. So in 214 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 7: that way, like Rice is, it's different. And you know, 215 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 7: as his persona is trying to as we've just talked about, 216 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 7: he's trying to be like this kind of man of 217 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 7: the people, accessible, gut accessible and all that, but actually 218 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 7: the trouble is the reality just doesn't stack up, you know, 219 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 7: for what he's saying. 220 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, he might have good intentions, but it doesn't end 221 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 2: up panning out. You mentioned Exon and Chevron, and I 222 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: wanted to ask you about them because I find it. 223 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: I also find it really interesting how you're seeing and 224 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: you kind of have always seen this in the gas 225 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 2: industry in the US at least, this divide between the 226 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: sort of like rough and ready shale guys and the 227 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 2: oil majors. And it's interesting that you see it in 228 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 2: these lobbying groups as well, Like there's you know, you 229 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: almost never see like an Exon and a Chevron in 230 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 2: the same lobbying group as EQT or whatever. And in 231 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: you know, we got some kind of late breaking documents 232 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 2: from the folks at Trends of the Earth who had 233 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: sued the State Department to get hold of Amos hawks 234 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 2: Teen's calendar, who is an energy advisor to Biden, a 235 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: longtime gas guy, and he had all these meetings with 236 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: with Toby Rice at EQT, the focus of which was, 237 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: you know, to push the idea of like you know, 238 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 2: certified low carbon gas or differentiated gas. This whole boondoggle 239 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: that you've been looking into. And he says in like 240 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: the lobbyist who's setting up the appointment for him says 241 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: in a few different emails, like you know, basically like 242 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 2: we're like differentiating ourselves in the industry and you know, 243 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: I'm sure it's not going to go over well, but 244 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: we need to do it, and all of this stuff, 245 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: you know, like they're going to outpace x On and 246 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 2: Chevron by doing more environmentally friendly gas and they're going 247 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 2: to spur everybody else in the end street On and 248 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. But I'm curious what you 249 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: think about just how the oil majors and these guys 250 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 2: operate kind of separate from each other in parallel streams. 251 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 5: I think that's a really interesting point. 252 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 7: Traditionally, sort of if you go back to some of 253 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 7: the sort of sort of front groups that the oil 254 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 7: industry was involved in, like the GCC or there they 255 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 7: called the Climate Council as well in the in the nineties. 256 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 7: You know, those were the oil majors. You wouldn't have had, 257 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 7: you know, any of these kind of like fracking players 258 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 7: in any of those organizations. I mean, they'll all sit 259 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 7: under the umbrella of say the American Petroleum Institute, which is, 260 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 7: you know, a broad church of the you know, the 261 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 7: biggest lobbying group often in the US, pushing sort of 262 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 7: the oil industry's interests, but in this specific you know instance, Yeah, 263 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 7: often you see the sort of the small I mean 264 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 7: EQC is like. 265 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: Hard to think of them as like the little guy, 266 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 2: but yeah. 267 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 7: You know, like they're like the shock and in the 268 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 7: small pond on't they you know, like you know, they're 269 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 7: increasingly you know, they are the largest gas producer in 270 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 7: the US, so I mean, they're a big player now, 271 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 7: but they're still probably not in the same room often 272 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 7: is it an excell on as a shell or as 273 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 7: a BP right right. 274 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 6: Yeah. 275 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: It's interesting too because there was this moment around the 276 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: pandemic where you can kind of see how groups like API, 277 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 2: for example, at a certain point might be lobbying like 278 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 2: in the interests of a Chevron and EXON and against 279 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 2: the interests of like an EQT or a pioneer. There 280 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: was a moment where within the EPI, Chevron and EXON 281 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: were lobbying like against getting more federal bailout money for 282 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: the shale drillers, and it was it was pretty clear 283 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 2: that it was like their goal was to just snap 284 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: up some of those guys, which they did. 285 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 7: You know, which is what you do? Which is the 286 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 7: which is the playbook is you know? You know, yeah, 287 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 7: and if you've got as much cash sitting in the 288 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 7: bank as is excellent and then you know, when a 289 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 7: minot gets too big and it's strategic, you do you 290 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 7: just swallow it up? 291 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you're seeing that, I mean with 292 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: the Pioneer acquisition, Chevron's attempt to get hess there's like 293 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 2: and you see too that in a lot of the 294 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 2: chatter around the oil majors is kind of focused on, 295 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: like we need to sort of buy up more resources 296 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 2: to continue posting growth numbers and all that kind of thing. 297 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: It's like at a certain point they're running out of 298 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: new reserves to tap and they have to just buy 299 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 2: up the ones that exist already. 300 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 5: And doubling down on all the gas. 301 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, exactly. 302 00:17:59,280 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 5: Yeah. 303 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 2: I want to have you talk a little bit about 304 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 2: the certified gas stuff and just how how little they're 305 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: there there is you know, what is what are people 306 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: actually measuring when they're claiming to have sort of environmentally 307 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 2: preferable gas. 308 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 7: I try to take one step back. I think what 309 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 7: you're seeing in with certified gas is in late twenty twenty, 310 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 7: the French government, which is you know, they've got a 311 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 7: I think it's a thirty three percent interest in NGI 312 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 7: and ENNGI was just about to do a twenty year 313 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 7: seven billion LNG project for it with Rio Grande by 314 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 7: next decade, and the French government basically pulled the plug 315 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 7: and they said, actually, we think we don't want you 316 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 7: to import US gas because it's too dirty, it's got 317 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 7: too much of a methane problem. Interesting and this sense shockwaves, 318 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 7: huge shockwaves through the US gas industry. And so since 319 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 7: then there's been this systematic campaign to greenwash US gas 320 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 7: as green and the certification is part of that. So 321 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 7: what they're saying is like you can have this is 322 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 7: what they're claiming, is like you can basically have green gas. 323 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 7: You can have net zero gas or carbon neutral gas. 324 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 7: And the way they're going to do it is they're 325 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 7: going to certify, like put monitors on across you know, 326 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 7: the upstream and midstream industry and check for leaks in 327 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 7: real time and then you know, stop stop the leakage 328 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 7: of methane. And if you can stot. You know, their 329 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 7: argument is if you can stop the leakage of methane, 330 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 7: and methane is of course a much more potent you know, 331 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 7: greenhouse gases, it's whatever, it's like, eighty times more potent 332 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 7: than carbon dioxide. And if you can plug the methane 333 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 7: leaks and then you can offset the carbon emissions at 334 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 7: the end, then you could supposedly. 335 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 5: Have you know, zero carbon. 336 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 7: And you had a sort of a number of companies 337 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 7: of which say Project Canary is one that basically sort 338 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 7: of sprung up seeing a market opportunity and said, hey, 339 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 7: we're independent and we will verify this gas as responsibly 340 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 7: sourced or differentiated. There's a number of different words that 341 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 7: are used, and so oil Change and Earthworks, you know, 342 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 7: began looking again at what was going on. Earthworks went 343 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 7: out in the field and they stuck their cameras in 344 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 7: front of quite a few sites and basically showed the 345 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 7: you know, the complete discrepancy between the rhetoric of what 346 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 7: a company like Project Canary was saying and EQT and 347 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 7: all these others are saying that, hey, this is great, 348 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 7: we've got certified gas and the reality, you know, and 349 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 7: the report that one came out last year and another 350 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 7: one's just come out this month. Last year's report showed 351 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 7: over seven months, basically they failed to capture every significant 352 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 7: pollution event and most of the time there were problems 353 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 7: with the monitors. Often the monitors are placed outside you know, 354 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 7: buffer walls or you know, in places where they you know, 355 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 7: upstream where the wind is going downstream, so they you know, 356 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 7: they know that the pollution will never be be caught. 357 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 5: Wow. 358 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 7: And then this year's report basically again basically showing regularly 359 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 7: of missing pollution events. Project can Aries monitors, which supposedly 360 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 7: continuously monitor for pollution events and methane leakage, were offline 361 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 7: for twenty five percent of the time, so accord of 362 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 7: the time they're offline, and even if there's a problem, 363 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 7: companies are really taking action. So so there's there's serious, 364 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 7: serious questions to answer about the sort of the claims 365 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 7: the industry and you know, companies like Project can area 366 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 7: making as to certified gas and how robust it is 367 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 7: and how you know it is actually really reducing methane emissions. 368 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 5: Mm hmmm. 369 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: Didn't Project Canary do like a lot of pilot studies 370 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 2: with EQT to like develop their whole thing too. 371 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 7: They were doing pilot studies with EQT and others. Yes, 372 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 7: and the sort of what we were hearing on the 373 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 7: street is a lot of their sort of pilot projects 374 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 7: never sort of moved into sort of full blown fruition 375 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 7: with the number of customers. 376 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 2: That's interesting because I know in those emails where they 377 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 2: were requesting meetings with US officials, one of the things 378 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 2: that they were using was this claim that Equt's gas 379 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 2: is like has one tenth the methane of other US producers, 380 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 2: which I was like, where's that stat coming from? Interesting? 381 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. 382 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 7: And you know, if your monitor's not picking up your 383 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 7: pollution and it's there's not enough monitors and they're all 384 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 7: in the wrong place and you know they're not they're offline, 385 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 7: all these kind of things, you know, it just shows 386 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 7: there's a stack of problems. And I you know, I 387 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 7: think there were there were other sorts of significant issues. 388 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 7: I mean, for example, like Chris Roma, who was you 389 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 7: know then the sort of seer of Project Canary. He 390 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 7: was talking about certifying gas is a way of fixing 391 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 7: the gas into's brand problem. They would be claiming to 392 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 7: be independent but actually saying, hey, guys, through certifying gas, 393 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 7: we will fix your image and allow you to sell 394 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 7: you know, so called you know, responsibly so gas to 395 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 7: the Europeans, to the Asians and those who are worried 396 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 7: about climate change. And that's where it gets really sort 397 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 7: of dangerous, say from a European perspective, because you've got 398 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 7: the Europeans now saying actually, you know, we we need 399 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 7: or you know, talking to people like Toby Rice about 400 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 7: importing leg and if there is a veneer of green 401 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 7: over that gas through certification, it allows them to go 402 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 7: to the European consumers and say, actually it's okay, we 403 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 7: can have European climate goals via you know, American LLERG 404 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 7: because American energy is great. But again that is completely 405 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 7: and utterly disingenuous because there are fundamental flaws with LLERG 406 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 7: and also the certification process. 407 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting because one of I know that 408 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: one of the one of the things that all of 409 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 2: the gas producers have been trying to do is increase 410 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 2: the length of time that these contracts with Europe will last. 411 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 2: And the European Union did put in place contract limits, 412 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 2: but they also added this little, you know, amazing caveat 413 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 2: for the industry, which around you know, the word unabated, 414 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: which they put in you know, contracts for unabated gas 415 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 2: cannot last beyond twenty forty nine. So I wonder if 416 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: if that has also driven some you know, increased interest 417 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 2: in certification and you know, just generally trying to make 418 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 2: it seem like producers are quote unquote abating those emissions 419 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 2: in some way. 420 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, I think about or the industry claims 421 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 7: about forty percent of US gas is now certified, so 422 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 7: you know, that's been a significant change over the last 423 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 7: two years and massive increase. And you know, there is 424 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 7: no doubt about it that the industry sees certification as 425 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 7: a sort of key tenant of getting long term energy 426 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 7: contracts with European buyers. And if you go back to 427 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 7: what happens in late twenty twenty and the fact that 428 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 7: the French government got energy to pull out because of 429 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 7: it concerns about how dirty energy was, you know, it 430 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 7: shows that this is you know, the industry strategy to 431 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 7: get around or to overcome those concerns and convince the 432 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 7: Europeans that they can have their cake and eat it, 433 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 7: which is they supposedly have got quite you know, bold 434 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 7: climate goals, but then they can still have massive imports 435 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 7: of energy for the next well over twenty years. But 436 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 7: again that is completely flawed from a sort of scientific perspective, 437 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 7: and where you know, we know that the methane is 438 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 7: still leaking in the US, We know that when you're 439 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 7: burning gas, you're still a missing carbon. And and also 440 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 7: that's the un and all the climate scientists are saying, well, 441 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 7: you know, if we want a Liverpool, you know future, 442 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 7: if you want to try and keep anywhere near one 443 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 7: point five or even two degree warming, then we just 444 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 7: cannot carry on, you know, looking and exploring for more 445 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 7: or a gas And yeah, you know the other the 446 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 7: other thing that's sort of really interesting from a sort 447 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 7: of public relations perspective, from the sort of you know, 448 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,479 Speaker 7: the Toby rices and others, is that, you know, gas 449 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 7: used to be seen as a transition fuel. You know, 450 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 7: they were saying, okay, well we need gas to be 451 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 7: a transition fuel, you know, to renewables, and that all 452 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 7: gives us time to develop renewables. But now the sort 453 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 7: of messaging from Rice and others is actually, gas is 454 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 7: integral to the transition because you know, if you clean 455 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 7: up your metho in emissions and then you offsets the 456 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 7: carbon emissions, you can have zero carbon kind of gas, 457 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 7: and which is a misnomer. 458 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 6: Yeah. 459 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: There was even in the most recent kind of dumbo 460 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 2: documents from the US government's investigation and to climate disinformation, 461 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: there was this strategy document that was done for BP 462 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,959 Speaker 2: I think it was from Brunswick where they talked about 463 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: the need to shift from the idea of gas as 464 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 2: a bridge to gas as the destination. Yeah, which of 465 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: course we all knew, but like they explicitly stated it. 466 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly, So there you go. It's on the nail. 467 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 7: You know, it's in black and white. And of course 468 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 7: it would be a PR company, you know, it's coming 469 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 7: up with a strategy. You know, and I'm sure both 470 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 7: of us could talk long and hard about, you know, 471 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 7: the role of the PR companies in the climate crisis. 472 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 7: But yes, there has been a significant shift in the 473 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 7: public relations strategy of the oil and gas industry to 474 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 7: sort of move the dial from gas, you know, as 475 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 7: a bridge fuel is to actually say no, gas can 476 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 7: be here to stay. It's integral to the transition, you know, 477 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 7: as long as we've got certification and we've got offsetting. Yeah, 478 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 7: a transition away from fossil fuels has now in their 479 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 7: minds become a transition. You know, fossil fuels are integral 480 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 7: to it. 481 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 5: You know. It's mad. 482 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting too because I will often hear 483 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 2: people kind of being like, oh, well, like it's too 484 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: much of a leap to go from you know, coal 485 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: and oil to renewables or whatever, like you need to 486 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: have some kind of a transition in the middle and this, 487 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 2: that and the other, right, But like they never talk 488 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,719 Speaker 2: about the transition from coal to gas as being too 489 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 2: much a leap. It's like, but we're doing an energy transition. 490 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 2: It's just not not the right one. One of the 491 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 2: things speaking of coal that EQUT says a lot and 492 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 2: page as well, and it kind of seems to be 493 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: integral to their mass on emissions. Is this idea that 494 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: L and G that you know, US LERG is always 495 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 2: replacing coal. I'm curious if you've seen that from other 496 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 2: producers as well, Like this this this idea that like, well, 497 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 2: if it's replacing coal, then it's definitely going to be 498 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: better and it's always replacing coal, So that's great, We're good. 499 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 5: I mean, I think two things. 500 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 7: One is I mean, let's not forget that, you know, 501 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 7: some studies have shown that you know, LNG is actually 502 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 7: worse for the climate than coal. So so when Toby 503 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 7: Rice says we're replacing coal as is just suggest that 504 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 7: this is a beneficial there's actually you know that that 505 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 7: statement needs to be unpicked and verifies, and I think 506 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 7: a number of climate scientists would would counter him on that. 507 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 7: To me, Page seems to really doubled down on that, 508 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 7: you know, messaging as hey, you know we're going to 509 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 7: unleash LNG and it's you know it works as a 510 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 7: coal replacement. But actually again in reality, it's never it's 511 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 7: never like that, you know, what they're doing at the moment, 512 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 7: or you know, they've in response to say Russia's invasion 513 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 7: of Ukraine again they've been you know right, and others 514 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 7: have been going to Brussels and Berlin to say it 515 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 7: again as we've just been talking about, you know, let's 516 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 7: lock Europe into LNG from the US, and so that's 517 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 7: you know, it's not they're not replacing coal. They're basically 518 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 7: trying to you know, make a new market for US 519 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 7: L and G. 520 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 2: Right, it's more often just replacing other gas than coal. 521 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, to your point, we don't even know 522 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: that it's a net good to replace cools gas either. 523 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 7: So yeah, but what it is doing, as you said before, 524 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 7: is you're they're trying to lock Europe and other consumers 525 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 7: into these long term contracts which never existed before. So 526 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 7: in that sense, it's even worse for the climate. 527 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: Can I have you talk about that a little bit, 528 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 2: like the fact that they never existed before. How how 529 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 2: unusual is it for for companies to get the kinds 530 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 2: of like twenty thirty even more you know year contracts 531 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 2: that these guys are turning to lock in. 532 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 7: Well, my understanding is like European and potentially sort of 533 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 7: maybe even Russian contracts, we're done on a much shorter timescale. 534 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 7: But you know, the US LNG industry is basically it's 535 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,239 Speaker 7: had to it's having to build the infrastructure, a lot 536 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 7: of the infrastructure to do the exports. So the only 537 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 7: way they can make that sort of financially viable in 538 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 7: the long term is is to lock their consumers into 539 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 7: long term contracts. So the US industry has been really 540 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 7: pushing and trying to sort of get you know, decades 541 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 7: long contracts where Europe wasn't sort of used to having 542 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 7: to do that before, and now because of say the Ukraine, 543 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 7: you know, Russian's invasion and the Ukraine War, they've they've 544 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 7: been at their sort of most energy vulnerable, you know, 545 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 7: and into that sort of into that space, companies like EQT, 546 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 7: you know, people like Toby Rice have just sort of 547 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 7: jumped and said, hey, you know, we've got your solution, 548 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 7: but you know the problem with that is we want 549 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 7: a long term contract. 550 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, that's it's so interesting because I do 551 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 2: feel like, you know, the US, especially the you know, 552 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 2: the eqts of you know, Chesapeake and Chenier and all 553 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 2: these like small they're not small anymore, but like the 554 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 2: upstart racking guys. It's so it seems to me like 555 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 2: so much of the desire for long term contracts is 556 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: not just you know, of course everybody wants to lock in, 557 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 2: you know, a high volume long term contract, but those 558 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 2: guys in particular have had really like an endless boom 559 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 2: and buff cycle their entire existence. It's like, you know, 560 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 2: they have not been able to figure out a stable 561 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 2: business model, and you I don't know, I feel like 562 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 2: I always just kind of get that vibe from Toby Rice, 563 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 2: like whenever I see him on a news show or whatever. 564 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: It's like it's just sort of like like a magpie 565 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 2: going from shiny thing to shiny thing looking for like 566 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 2: what's gonna what's going to deliver the kind of profitability 567 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 2: they're looking for, Like I just you know, it's like 568 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 2: it's zeru Bo's Asia, it's Ai. You know. 569 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 7: Yeah, you've got to keep you know, you've got to 570 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 7: produce another cut out of your pas to justify you know, 571 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 7: carrying on drilling, carrying on energy expansion, carrying on building 572 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 7: the infrastructure, you know, when at the same time, the 573 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,919 Speaker 7: reality on the ground is impacted communities who can't drink 574 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 7: their water, you know, with all the sort of health impacts, 575 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 7: the climate impacts that you know, the UN and all 576 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,399 Speaker 7: climate scientists basically saying we cannot carry on drilling for more, 577 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 7: and you know, the LERG industry saying, oh, yes we can, 578 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 7: and this is how we're going to do it. 579 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 2: And we're also now hearing from Europe like we just 580 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 2: don't need that much. Like there you know, there are 581 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 2: all of these reports coming out that the import build 582 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 2: out has already outpaced the actual need for ler G 583 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 2: in Europe. So you know that's concerning too, because like 584 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 2: what happens with the gaslet historically more plastic and petrocogals, 585 00:35:58,920 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 2: you know. 586 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yeah, No, I mean that's a really fundamental 587 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 7: it's a really fundamental point that you know, is actually 588 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 7: I think I think US lergy exports to the EU 589 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 7: have tripled in the you know, between twenty twenty one 590 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 7: to twenty twenty three, but actually, you know, demand is decreasing. 591 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 9: Yeah, and like significantly too. We're talking, you know, I 592 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 9: think it was a twenty two percent decrease from from 593 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 9: twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three. That's that's really significant. 594 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 9: And it's not just being replaced by renewables. It's also 595 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 9: coming from efficiency, which is great because you know, I 596 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 9: think there was just this report this past week where 597 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,720 Speaker 9: you see what happens when like you shift energy sources 598 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 9: but don't reduce energy use, especially in the current context, 599 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 9: it doesn't do much to emissions, but they're doing both, 600 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 9: you know. So yeah, it's very concerned. 601 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 7: Yeah, and Europe, whether it already has I mean, I 602 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 7: think you probably could make an argument that already has 603 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 7: you know, got itself into a pickle because if those 604 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 7: trends continue, where you've got massive increase of US energy 605 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 7: and you've got you know, decreasing demand and you've just 606 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 7: locked yourself into decades long contracts. Something isn't going to 607 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 7: make sense very quickly. You're going to end up, you know, 608 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 7: contractually important gas where you have no demand exactly. 609 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 2: And then the I've even seen some of the US 610 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 2: producers kind of push this idea of like, you know, 611 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 2: don't worry because then you can just sell it on 612 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 2: to Asia. But you know that's really not that's not 613 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 2: it's not a great fixed and they're the US. The 614 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 2: US producers are also increasing their direct sales to Asia, 615 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 2: so it's just sort of passing. 616 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 7: And from a climate perspective, it makes no sense to 617 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 7: be you know, shipping energy to Europe to a and 618 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 7: you know, don't forget European Union. They've got you know, 619 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 7: quite robust climate goals and again again there's a discrepancy 620 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 7: there between sort of the reality of how dirty Ellen 621 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 7: g is and you know what those goals are. 622 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it for this week. Thanks for listening. 623 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: Keep an eye out for that LNG episode coming soon, 624 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: as well as episodes on lots of other faulty problems 625 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: masquerading as solutions from the fossil fuel industry. 626 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.