WEBVTT - Florida Executing #15, as Tennessee “Botched” Lethal Injection  Method is Challenged

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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, folks.

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<v Speaker 2>It is Monday, October twenty seventh, and tomorrow night, Florida

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<v Speaker 2>is going to execute a man and it will be

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<v Speaker 2>their fifteenth execution of the year. But this man is

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<v Speaker 2>the first one to not even fight his execution date.

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<v Speaker 2>And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ.

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<v Speaker 2>And he is going to Robes die by lethal injection.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is where we got some more disturbing news

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<v Speaker 2>about lethal injection out of Tennessee. All the stuff ties together,

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<v Speaker 2>but there's a case in Tennessee of an inmate who

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<v Speaker 2>died this year and what they call a botched execution

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<v Speaker 2>by lethal injection in Robes this idea that possibly just

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<v Speaker 2>how alive could he possibly have been after he was

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<v Speaker 2>declared dead.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there has been four years now so much focus

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<v Speaker 3>and controversy surrounding lethal injection house states. Do it the

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<v Speaker 3>chemicals or the drugs they use, the order in which

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<v Speaker 3>they use them, And the question remains. It feels like

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<v Speaker 3>still we're asking is it humane? Is it cruel and unusual?

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<v Speaker 3>The way we're killing inmates on death row?

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<v Speaker 1>How can we ever know?

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<v Speaker 2>We right, we go buy what doctors tell us, We

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<v Speaker 2>go buy research and a lot of people go by reactions,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's the reaction to the person being killed, the

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<v Speaker 2>reactions to the body. And in this case we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to discuss at least in this episode, Robes, the one

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<v Speaker 2>out of Tennessee, we actually heard from the inmate say

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<v Speaker 2>out loud that he was in pain, so we will

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<v Speaker 2>get into that. But in Florida, I mean, you can't

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<v Speaker 2>make this stuff up. But the inmate there the execution

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<v Speaker 2>this week. His last name is grim.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Norman Merle Grimm, sixty five years old, again scheduled

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<v Speaker 3>to die by lethal injection. It would be the fifteenth

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<v Speaker 3>execution this year for Florida, which is a they call

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<v Speaker 3>it a modern record at least the death penalty has

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<v Speaker 3>been reinstated.

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<v Speaker 2>In nineteen seventy six since it came back, and then

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<v Speaker 2>they had eight was there high before this, So they're

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<v Speaker 2>up to fifteen they will be this week, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think two more on the books for this year, so

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<v Speaker 2>they will get up to seventeen if all goes as.

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<v Speaker 3>Schedules, So they will more than double their previous record

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<v Speaker 3>of executions in one year.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, far ahead of what we're used to seeing. In Texas.

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<v Speaker 2>Texas has five this year. I believe executions, but Florida

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<v Speaker 2>is that they just scheduled them all this year when

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<v Speaker 2>drugs became available, and they just start putting them back

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<v Speaker 2>on the books and they're seeing them through.

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<v Speaker 3>And this will be the forty first execution this year

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<v Speaker 3>in this country. Grim will be or would be if

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<v Speaker 3>it does in fact happen tomorrow, and it looks like

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<v Speaker 3>by all accounts it will because, as you pointed out,

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<v Speaker 3>he is not appealing this conviction. He's not proclaiming his innocence.

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<v Speaker 3>He just said, let's do this basically.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's not what you're used to seeing.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean they're trying everything at this late hour, anything

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<v Speaker 2>that sticks. And he just saved a whole lot of

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<v Speaker 2>time and energy and money on a lot of people's

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<v Speaker 2>parts by just saying, don't even give it an attempt. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>Grim's And again we mentioned we've done several of these

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<v Speaker 2>stories and sometimes details are in question and people question

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<v Speaker 2>some of the witnesses and some of the evidence. This

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<v Speaker 2>is not one of these cases. And this was a

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<v Speaker 2>really horrific crime that he was convicted.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, it was described as brutal and merciless. I mean

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<v Speaker 3>most murders are, but this one is actually puzzling too.

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<v Speaker 3>And this is a guy who had a very long

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<v Speaker 3>violent criminal history, but he murdered his next door neighbor

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<v Speaker 3>who was an attorney, and it's a bizarre setup.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm sure you read all the details, babe, that she had.

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<v Speaker 3>Called police earlier in the morning because someone had broken

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<v Speaker 3>her window, and he was over there with her with

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<v Speaker 3>police looking at this broken window. And the police officer

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<v Speaker 3>who came to the scene around five o'clock in the

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<v Speaker 3>morning heard him invite her over to his home for

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<v Speaker 3>coffee afterwards, and then she goes missing.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't see how long was she missing.

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<v Speaker 4>Not very long at all.

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<v Speaker 3>So she basically they had she had an intern at

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<v Speaker 3>her law office drop off something and her front door

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<v Speaker 3>was open, he noted, and the car was in there,

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<v Speaker 3>and he called out her name. She didn't answer. No

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<v Speaker 3>one thought anything of it. A few hours later, when

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<v Speaker 3>she didn't show up for work, they went by again

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<v Speaker 3>and again her car was there, her keys were there,

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<v Speaker 3>and she wasn't and so they called police and police

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<v Speaker 3>went to question grim immediately, who said he didn't know

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<v Speaker 3>what was going on. But then he went out and

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<v Speaker 3>police followed him because he said he had to go

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<v Speaker 3>pick up his dogs. But they believe now what he

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<v Speaker 3>was doing. Her body was in his trunk at that point,

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<v Speaker 3>and he was able to lose the police officer like

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<v Speaker 3>he knew he was being followed.

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<v Speaker 4>It's bizarre and dum.

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<v Speaker 3>The body over a bridge, which was then fished out

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<v Speaker 3>of this body of water within hours by a fisherman.

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<v Speaker 2>And the condition of the body, it's pretty horrific stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>They describe here. Had at least eleven stab wounds, and

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<v Speaker 2>seven of those penetrated this lady's heart. And she also

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<v Speaker 2>had wounds that were consistent with being struck repeatedly with

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<v Speaker 2>a hammer. So this was some really really nasty stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>But he was convicted of this crime and he had

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<v Speaker 2>a chance. Earlier this month, he was asked the question

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<v Speaker 2>do you want to appeal? He said no, because if

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<v Speaker 2>he had done so, it immediately triggers all of this

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<v Speaker 2>court action that sometimes can slow things down, and it

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<v Speaker 2>makes its way up and then you have to hear

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<v Speaker 2>from the Supreme Court or where they take that whole thing.

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<v Speaker 2>He skipped all that stuff and just said.

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<v Speaker 3>Nope, Well, I mean look, and he also not only

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<v Speaker 3>was he convicted with a first degree murder and it

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<v Speaker 3>was a unanimous decision to send him to death row.

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<v Speaker 4>But he also raped her sexual battery as well.

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<v Speaker 3>But when you start to look at Norman Grimm's history,

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<v Speaker 3>it's appalling that he was even out just all of

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<v Speaker 3>these other instants where he was accused of and convicted

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<v Speaker 3>of accosting a fourteen year old girl, dragging her to

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<v Speaker 3>a wooded area. She was managed to get free. He

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<v Speaker 3>also like went after a woman who was living next door.

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<v Speaker 3>She fought him off and he was But anyway, he

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<v Speaker 3>had repeatedly gone after women violently and they just happened

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<v Speaker 3>to get away from him. But he was convicted of

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<v Speaker 3>crimes and went to prison, but was just released and

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<v Speaker 3>sadly it ended up in murder.

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<v Speaker 2>And so his I guess his his life of crime,

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<v Speaker 2>and his I guess his story is going to end,

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<v Speaker 2>and that book is going to be closed. We will

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<v Speaker 2>see with lethal injection how this goes.

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<v Speaker 1>There have been.

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<v Speaker 2>Varying reports of how goes with this with lethal injection

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<v Speaker 2>and how this is going to go. But lethal injection

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<v Speaker 2>is being challenged in the state of Tennessee right now

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<v Speaker 2>after there was what they are calling a botched a

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<v Speaker 2>botched execution of Byron Black. Now, once you started listening

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<v Speaker 2>to some of these details, it's pretty remarkable. But Byron

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<v Speaker 2>Black was sixty nine years old with his execution was

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<v Speaker 2>August fifth, and we call it an execution, but robes

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<v Speaker 2>at the time his attorney. His attorney flat out said

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<v Speaker 2>he was tortured.

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<v Speaker 4>That's right.

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<v Speaker 3>So his electro cardiogram showed that there was sustained cardiac

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<v Speaker 3>activity two minutes after he was pronounced dead, and the

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<v Speaker 3>moment he was pronounced dead, according to his attorney, they

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<v Speaker 3>the folks working behind the scenes, shut the curtain so

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<v Speaker 3>they could no longer see if he was still in pain,

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<v Speaker 3>if he was still suffering, if he had still any

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<v Speaker 3>visible signs of life at that point. So they don't

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<v Speaker 3>really know what happened once they shut the curtains pronounce

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<v Speaker 3>him dead. But we do know now he wasn't dead

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<v Speaker 3>when they pronounced him dead.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a lot.

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<v Speaker 5>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>I tried to look this up to your point best

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<v Speaker 2>I could, Like, what does the body do?

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<v Speaker 1>Right? Can you be pronounced dead and.

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<v Speaker 2>Have little flurries of electronic electric activity through the body.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if they're a flutter or how sustained.

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<v Speaker 2>Did they say this was? But this was entered as

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<v Speaker 2>part of evidence as to why lethal injection should not

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<v Speaker 2>be allowed and why it's cruel and unusual. Now, his

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<v Speaker 2>crime at least will get this part out of the way.

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<v Speaker 2>It's pretty horrific. So there's no question about this man's

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<v Speaker 2>guilt or innocence, and that is not the question. The

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<v Speaker 2>question is was it humane the way he was executed?

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<v Speaker 2>But he killed his girlfriend and her two daughters with

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<v Speaker 2>the ages of nine and six. That's tough. So that

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<v Speaker 2>is what he was convicted of. Now, over the years,

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<v Speaker 2>now here he is. He's a sixty nine your old

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<v Speaker 2>man and apparently in terrible physical condition.

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<v Speaker 4>That's right.

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<v Speaker 3>He had end stage kidney failure. He had congestive heart failure.

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<v Speaker 3>So he actually had a defibrillator I can never say

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<v Speaker 3>that right, defibrillator implanted in his chest. And he suffered

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<v Speaker 3>from dementia, he was immobile, and his IQ was.

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<v Speaker 4>They say, extremely.

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<v Speaker 2>Low, an intellectual disability. So he had all of these issues,

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<v Speaker 2>all of these ailments. And look, he did the crime.

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<v Speaker 2>You do the time, and the time for him is punishment,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's by execution. But a lot of people are

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<v Speaker 2>arguing this was cruel and unusual. Now, you mentioned rome

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<v Speaker 2>the defibrillator, and that is a big part of the

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<v Speaker 2>cruel and unusual. Now, before his execution, his attorneys had

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<v Speaker 2>been warning everybody that, hey, he has this heart implant

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<v Speaker 2>that is supposed to monitor his heart in any time

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<v Speaker 2>there's irregularity. Was a dude, gives it a little shock,

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<v Speaker 2>shocks you back, It wakes you back up and keeps

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<v Speaker 2>the heart in rhythm. Hey, you're trying to kill him.

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<v Speaker 2>This heart implant might try to keep trying to bring

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<v Speaker 2>him back to life. It might try to keep shocking

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<v Speaker 2>his heart, which could be extremely painful for him. So

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<v Speaker 2>they went to court and asked for it to be

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<v Speaker 2>turned off. One judge said, yep, has to be cut

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<v Speaker 2>off the state in an appeals and another court said, robes, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>turn it off, but it's not a big deal that

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<v Speaker 2>you do it, essentially saying we're not going to require

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<v Speaker 2>that you do it, but knock yourself out if you

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<v Speaker 2>can make it work. That was the instruction was, no,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not requiring it, but if you can make it

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<v Speaker 2>work with the schedule. So a hospital, according to the prosecutor,

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<v Speaker 2>has agreed to come and turn off the defibrillator or

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<v Speaker 2>right before the execution within romes. Days ahead of time.

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<v Speaker 2>That hospital puts out that statement that you see in

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<v Speaker 2>front of you.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow, So here's what the hospital said. Earlier reports of

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<v Speaker 3>Nashville General Hospital's involvement are inaccurate. The correctional healthcare provider

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<v Speaker 3>contract contracted by the Tennessee Department of Correction did not

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<v Speaker 3>contact appropriate Nashville General Hospital leadership with its request to

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<v Speaker 3>deactivate the implanted defibrillator. Any assertion in the hospital would

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<v Speaker 3>participate in the procedure was premature.

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<v Speaker 2>And with that, there was no one to turn off

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<v Speaker 2>the defibrillator. So this man with all those issues we

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<v Speaker 2>talked about, with the intellectual disability, with the physical ailments,

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<v Speaker 2>with the heart condition, and yes, with this thing, it

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<v Speaker 2>was not turned off, the suggestion being that maybe it

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<v Speaker 2>could shock him back to life repeatedly. So the execution

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<v Speaker 2>comes in romes. By many accounts of witnesses, this was awful,

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<v Speaker 2>including the words I look, I've seen final words, and

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<v Speaker 2>what are your last words?

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<v Speaker 1>That's one thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I can't remember reports of one in which during

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<v Speaker 2>the execution the inmate was talking or set was trying

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<v Speaker 2>to communicate something wild.

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<v Speaker 3>Dying Well, the thought would be that if the drugs

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<v Speaker 3>were put in his system in the correct order, in

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<v Speaker 3>the correct way, in the correct amount, you would be incapacitated.

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<v Speaker 3>You would be asleep, you wouldn't be able to speak.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's why I would presume we don't hear people

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<v Speaker 3>saying anything intelligible when they're in the process of dying,

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<v Speaker 3>because they've been the first drug should have gone in

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<v Speaker 3>and paralyzed their body, or at least put them to

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<v Speaker 3>sleep so that they don't feel pain and they can't communicate.

0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:55.760
<v Speaker 2>You hit it exactly, and they say, mister Black should

0:12:55.920 --> 0:13:00.640
<v Speaker 2>have been unconscious in a matter of seconds. Instead he

0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:05.520
<v Speaker 2>was still conscious five minutes into his execution. And to

0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.680
<v Speaker 2>your point, Robes, you would think someone wouldn't be able

0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:12.119
<v Speaker 2>to come up with something to say to be understood

0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 2>at that point. But stay with us, folks. We will

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 2>tell you what this man's not just his last words were,

0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:22.800
<v Speaker 2>but his final plea was as he was dying.

0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:33.240
<v Speaker 5>Stay here, all.

0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:34.320
<v Speaker 1>Right, folks, welcome back.

0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:40.200
<v Speaker 2>We continue now with Byron Black, who was executed earlier

0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.559
<v Speaker 2>this year, and Norman Grimm, said to be executed tomorrow

0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.560
<v Speaker 2>by the state of Florida. Grim going to receive the

0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.640
<v Speaker 2>same fate death by lethal injection that Byron Black did.

0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:55.800
<v Speaker 2>Byron Black's execution called botched by many, his attorney calling

0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:59.160
<v Speaker 2>him tortured as he went through the process. And in

0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.400
<v Speaker 2>Tennessee they are challenging now some of the processes and

0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.200
<v Speaker 2>the protocols for going through lethal injection, calling them cruel

0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.240
<v Speaker 2>and unusual, including in Byron Black's case.

0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:10.960
<v Speaker 1>Robes was just revealed.

0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.360
<v Speaker 2>As we said, the EKG showed that he was still

0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:18.000
<v Speaker 2>his heart showed sustained cardiac activity after two minutes. But

0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:24.280
<v Speaker 2>during that execution of Byron Black, he spoke and he

0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.120
<v Speaker 2>let people know that's part of it, like how much pain?

0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:29.560
<v Speaker 2>And then some judges have ruled in the path like you,

0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:31.760
<v Speaker 2>there's going to be a level of discomfort. Nobody's going

0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.080
<v Speaker 2>to be one hundred percent comfortable while they're being killed.

0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.240
<v Speaker 2>But still, what level of pain is cruel and unusual?

0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.520
<v Speaker 2>And this was this was a I don't know how

0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:42.560
<v Speaker 2>to describe necessarily what went down here.

0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:47.280
<v Speaker 3>Well, especially when you have experts in this area say

0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.920
<v Speaker 3>that if the drug is used correctly and injected correctly,

0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:56.000
<v Speaker 3>that you should lose consciousness within twenty seconds is what

0:14:56.200 --> 0:15:00.600
<v Speaker 3>they have said. And so yes, five minutes, it's into it.

0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:06.760
<v Speaker 3>He's moaning, he's saying, oh, it's hurting so bad. Like

0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.520
<v Speaker 3>he was actually able to say those words out loud

0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.080
<v Speaker 3>so that folks who were witnessing the execution could hear

0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:15.680
<v Speaker 3>him say it and document it.

0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:20.360
<v Speaker 4>And then he was moaning in pain for five minutes.

0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.640
<v Speaker 4>They said, that's not how it's supposed to work.

0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't believe. So they are challenging this in Tennessee.

0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:33.280
<v Speaker 2>But again, rogues, we're going through now another execution. Again,

0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.600
<v Speaker 2>there are we talk about this. We go back and forth,

0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.240
<v Speaker 2>and we always say if there's a there's no question,

0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.440
<v Speaker 2>if there's any question about guilt innocence, you should we

0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.720
<v Speaker 2>should take a beat. There isn't a question about guilt

0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.800
<v Speaker 2>or innocence in the Florida case. But now there's there

0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:51.040
<v Speaker 2>are big questions about the methods.

0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.360
<v Speaker 4>Correct using because some of the Death Penalty.

0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.200
<v Speaker 3>Information Center, we've talked about how we've used a lot

0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:00.160
<v Speaker 3>of their information, but they talked about how specifically in

0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:08.359
<v Speaker 3>reference to what happened to mister Black and his execution,

0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.320
<v Speaker 3>they say that of the two hundred autopsies of death

0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:14.720
<v Speaker 3>row prisoners that's been done over the last several years,

0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.920
<v Speaker 3>that study found that eighty four percent of those death

0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:25.760
<v Speaker 3>row inmates had pulmonary edemas, which is basically when your

0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:29.120
<v Speaker 3>lungs fill with fluid and it creates a feeling of

0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.880
<v Speaker 3>suffocation or drowning, and experts say that it actually they

0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.760
<v Speaker 3>liken it to waterboarding, and so they say there's extreme pain.

0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.800
<v Speaker 3>And so this is what's been happening to a lot

0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.040
<v Speaker 3>of these inmates with lethal injection to the point where

0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:45.280
<v Speaker 3>we have seen and obviously these studies have been out

0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.960
<v Speaker 3>and headlines have been out there, we have seen prisoners

0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.200
<v Speaker 3>in some states choose other methods of execution that seem horrific,

0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.000
<v Speaker 3>like either nitrogen gas or firing squad.

0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:00.280
<v Speaker 2>Some are pretty quickly if they say, really that if

0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:02.800
<v Speaker 2>somebody's aim is good, that that's a quick stopping of

0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:03.040
<v Speaker 2>the heart.

0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:03.560
<v Speaker 4>Correct.

0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.600
<v Speaker 3>So people, I mean, obviously they're looking for the quickest

0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:11.359
<v Speaker 3>and least painful way to die, and most inmates, it seems,

0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.399
<v Speaker 3>are concerned about this lethal injection and it's been the

0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.760
<v Speaker 3>thing is, it's been an issue for years now, and.

0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.439
<v Speaker 2>So the next thing is going to be an issue

0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:23.480
<v Speaker 2>is nitrogen gas, which is being used more and more

0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:27.080
<v Speaker 2>in particularly what Alabama, Alabama, I think is very prone

0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.639
<v Speaker 2>to use that, but just something else we're keeping an

0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.840
<v Speaker 2>eye on this week. I mean, after we get through

0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.359
<v Speaker 2>this month, there are another fighting five or six on

0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.479
<v Speaker 2>the books in November and getting us through the end

0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:41.920
<v Speaker 2>of the year. Just it's fascinating to see at the

0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.719
<v Speaker 2>pace that we're on this year robes and where does

0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.400
<v Speaker 2>it lead next year as well. But folks, for now,

0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.040
<v Speaker 2>just wanted to hop on, give you that update. We'll

0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.200
<v Speaker 2>continue to hop on as we see things that are

0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.720
<v Speaker 2>of interest to us, that we think is our interest

0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:58.320
<v Speaker 2>to you that you should keep an eye on as well.

0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.159
<v Speaker 1>For now, I'm TJ. Holmes along with Amy Black, doctor

0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:01.520
<v Speaker 1>Auson