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Speaker 1: Hey there, folks.

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Speaker 2: It is Monday, October twenty seventh, and tomorrow night, Florida

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Speaker 2: is going to execute a man and it will be

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Speaker 2: their fifteenth execution of the year. But this man is

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Speaker 2: the first one to not even fight his execution date.

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Speaker 2: And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ.

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Speaker 2: And he is going to Robes die by lethal injection.

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Speaker 2: And that is where we got some more disturbing news

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Speaker 2: about lethal injection out of Tennessee. All the stuff ties together,

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Speaker 2: but there's a case in Tennessee of an inmate who

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Speaker 2: died this year and what they call a botched execution

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Speaker 2: by lethal injection in Robes this idea that possibly just

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Speaker 2: how alive could he possibly have been after he was

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Speaker 2: declared dead.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there has been four years now so much focus

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Speaker 3: and controversy surrounding lethal injection house states. Do it the

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Speaker 3: chemicals or the drugs they use, the order in which

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Speaker 3: they use them, And the question remains. It feels like

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Speaker 3: still we're asking is it humane? Is it cruel and unusual?

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Speaker 3: The way we're killing inmates on death row?

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Speaker 1: How can we ever know?

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Speaker 2: We right, we go buy what doctors tell us, We

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Speaker 2: go buy research and a lot of people go by reactions,

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Speaker 2: and that's the reaction to the person being killed, the

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Speaker 2: reactions to the body. And in this case we're going

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Speaker 2: to discuss at least in this episode, Robes, the one

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Speaker 2: out of Tennessee, we actually heard from the inmate say

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Speaker 2: out loud that he was in pain, so we will

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Speaker 2: get into that. But in Florida, I mean, you can't

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Speaker 2: make this stuff up. But the inmate there the execution

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Speaker 2: this week. His last name is grim.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Norman Merle Grimm, sixty five years old, again scheduled

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Speaker 3: to die by lethal injection. It would be the fifteenth

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Speaker 3: execution this year for Florida, which is a they call

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Speaker 3: it a modern record at least the death penalty has

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Speaker 3: been reinstated.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy six since it came back, and then

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Speaker 2: they had eight was there high before this, So they're

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Speaker 2: up to fifteen they will be this week, and I

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Speaker 2: think two more on the books for this year, so

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Speaker 2: they will get up to seventeen if all goes as.

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Speaker 3: Schedules, So they will more than double their previous record

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Speaker 3: of executions in one year.

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Speaker 2: Yes, far ahead of what we're used to seeing. In Texas.

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Speaker 2: Texas has five this year. I believe executions, but Florida

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Speaker 2: is that they just scheduled them all this year when

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Speaker 2: drugs became available, and they just start putting them back

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Speaker 2: on the books and they're seeing them through.

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Speaker 3: And this will be the forty first execution this year

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Speaker 3: in this country. Grim will be or would be if

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Speaker 3: it does in fact happen tomorrow, and it looks like

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Speaker 3: by all accounts it will because, as you pointed out,

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Speaker 3: he is not appealing this conviction. He's not proclaiming his innocence.

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Speaker 3: He just said, let's do this basically.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's not what you're used to seeing.

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Speaker 2: I mean they're trying everything at this late hour, anything

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Speaker 2: that sticks. And he just saved a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: time and energy and money on a lot of people's

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Speaker 2: parts by just saying, don't even give it an attempt. Now,

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Speaker 2: Grim's And again we mentioned we've done several of these

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Speaker 2: stories and sometimes details are in question and people question

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Speaker 2: some of the witnesses and some of the evidence. This

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Speaker 2: is not one of these cases. And this was a

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Speaker 2: really horrific crime that he was convicted.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it was described as brutal and merciless. I mean

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Speaker 3: most murders are, but this one is actually puzzling too.

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Speaker 3: And this is a guy who had a very long

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Speaker 3: violent criminal history, but he murdered his next door neighbor

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Speaker 3: who was an attorney, and it's a bizarre setup.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure you read all the details, babe, that she had.

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Speaker 3: Called police earlier in the morning because someone had broken

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Speaker 3: her window, and he was over there with her with

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Speaker 3: police looking at this broken window. And the police officer

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Speaker 3: who came to the scene around five o'clock in the

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Speaker 3: morning heard him invite her over to his home for

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Speaker 3: coffee afterwards, and then she goes missing.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see how long was she missing.

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Speaker 4: Not very long at all.

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Speaker 3: So she basically they had she had an intern at

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Speaker 3: her law office drop off something and her front door

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Speaker 3: was open, he noted, and the car was in there,

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Speaker 3: and he called out her name. She didn't answer. No

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Speaker 3: one thought anything of it. A few hours later, when

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Speaker 3: she didn't show up for work, they went by again

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Speaker 3: and again her car was there, her keys were there,

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Speaker 3: and she wasn't and so they called police and police

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Speaker 3: went to question grim immediately, who said he didn't know

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Speaker 3: what was going on. But then he went out and

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Speaker 3: police followed him because he said he had to go

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Speaker 3: pick up his dogs. But they believe now what he

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Speaker 3: was doing. Her body was in his trunk at that point,

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Speaker 3: and he was able to lose the police officer like

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Speaker 3: he knew he was being followed.

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Speaker 4: It's bizarre and dum.

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Speaker 3: The body over a bridge, which was then fished out

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Speaker 3: of this body of water within hours by a fisherman.

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Speaker 2: And the condition of the body, it's pretty horrific stuff.

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Speaker 2: They describe here. Had at least eleven stab wounds, and

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Speaker 2: seven of those penetrated this lady's heart. And she also

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Speaker 2: had wounds that were consistent with being struck repeatedly with

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Speaker 2: a hammer. So this was some really really nasty stuff.

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Speaker 2: But he was convicted of this crime and he had

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Speaker 2: a chance. Earlier this month, he was asked the question

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Speaker 2: do you want to appeal? He said no, because if

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Speaker 2: he had done so, it immediately triggers all of this

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Speaker 2: court action that sometimes can slow things down, and it

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Speaker 2: makes its way up and then you have to hear

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Speaker 2: from the Supreme Court or where they take that whole thing.

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Speaker 2: He skipped all that stuff and just said.

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Speaker 3: Nope, Well, I mean look, and he also not only

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Speaker 3: was he convicted with a first degree murder and it

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Speaker 3: was a unanimous decision to send him to death row.

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Speaker 4: But he also raped her sexual battery as well.

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Speaker 3: But when you start to look at Norman Grimm's history,

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Speaker 3: it's appalling that he was even out just all of

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Speaker 3: these other instants where he was accused of and convicted

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Speaker 3: of accosting a fourteen year old girl, dragging her to

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Speaker 3: a wooded area. She was managed to get free. He

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Speaker 3: also like went after a woman who was living next door.

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Speaker 3: She fought him off and he was But anyway, he

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Speaker 3: had repeatedly gone after women violently and they just happened

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Speaker 3: to get away from him. But he was convicted of

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Speaker 3: crimes and went to prison, but was just released and

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Speaker 3: sadly it ended up in murder.

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Speaker 2: And so his I guess his his life of crime,

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Speaker 2: and his I guess his story is going to end,

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Speaker 2: and that book is going to be closed. We will

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Speaker 2: see with lethal injection how this goes.

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Speaker 1: There have been.

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Speaker 2: Varying reports of how goes with this with lethal injection

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Speaker 2: and how this is going to go. But lethal injection

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Speaker 2: is being challenged in the state of Tennessee right now

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Speaker 2: after there was what they are calling a botched a

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Speaker 2: botched execution of Byron Black. Now, once you started listening

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Speaker 2: to some of these details, it's pretty remarkable. But Byron

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Speaker 2: Black was sixty nine years old with his execution was

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Speaker 2: August fifth, and we call it an execution, but robes

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Speaker 2: at the time his attorney. His attorney flat out said

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Speaker 2: he was tortured.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: So his electro cardiogram showed that there was sustained cardiac

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Speaker 3: activity two minutes after he was pronounced dead, and the

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Speaker 3: moment he was pronounced dead, according to his attorney, they

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Speaker 3: the folks working behind the scenes, shut the curtain so

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Speaker 3: they could no longer see if he was still in pain,

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Speaker 3: if he was still suffering, if he had still any

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Speaker 3: visible signs of life at that point. So they don't

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Speaker 3: really know what happened once they shut the curtains pronounce

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Speaker 3: him dead. But we do know now he wasn't dead

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Speaker 3: when they pronounced him dead.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 2: I tried to look this up to your point best

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Speaker 2: I could, Like, what does the body do?

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Speaker 1: Right? Can you be pronounced dead and.

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Speaker 2: Have little flurries of electronic electric activity through the body.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if they're a flutter or how sustained.

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Speaker 2: Did they say this was? But this was entered as

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Speaker 2: part of evidence as to why lethal injection should not

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Speaker 2: be allowed and why it's cruel and unusual. Now, his

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Speaker 2: crime at least will get this part out of the way.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty horrific. So there's no question about this man's

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Speaker 2: guilt or innocence, and that is not the question. The

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Speaker 2: question is was it humane the way he was executed?

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Speaker 2: But he killed his girlfriend and her two daughters with

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Speaker 2: the ages of nine and six. That's tough. So that

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Speaker 2: is what he was convicted of. Now, over the years,

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Speaker 2: now here he is. He's a sixty nine your old

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Speaker 2: man and apparently in terrible physical condition.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: He had end stage kidney failure. He had congestive heart failure.

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Speaker 3: So he actually had a defibrillator I can never say

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Speaker 3: that right, defibrillator implanted in his chest. And he suffered

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Speaker 3: from dementia, he was immobile, and his IQ was.

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Speaker 4: They say, extremely.

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Speaker 2: Low, an intellectual disability. So he had all of these issues,

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Speaker 2: all of these ailments. And look, he did the crime.

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Speaker 2: You do the time, and the time for him is punishment,

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Speaker 2: and it's by execution. But a lot of people are

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Speaker 2: arguing this was cruel and unusual. Now, you mentioned rome

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Speaker 2: the defibrillator, and that is a big part of the

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Speaker 2: cruel and unusual. Now, before his execution, his attorneys had

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Speaker 2: been warning everybody that, hey, he has this heart implant

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Speaker 2: that is supposed to monitor his heart in any time

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Speaker 2: there's irregularity. Was a dude, gives it a little shock,

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Speaker 2: shocks you back, It wakes you back up and keeps

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Speaker 2: the heart in rhythm. Hey, you're trying to kill him.

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Speaker 2: This heart implant might try to keep trying to bring

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Speaker 2: him back to life. It might try to keep shocking

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Speaker 2: his heart, which could be extremely painful for him. So

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Speaker 2: they went to court and asked for it to be

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Speaker 2: turned off. One judge said, yep, has to be cut

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Speaker 2: off the state in an appeals and another court said, robes, yes,

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Speaker 2: turn it off, but it's not a big deal that

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Speaker 2: you do it, essentially saying we're not going to require

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Speaker 2: that you do it, but knock yourself out if you

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Speaker 2: can make it work. That was the instruction was, no,

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Speaker 2: we're not requiring it, but if you can make it

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Speaker 2: work with the schedule. So a hospital, according to the prosecutor,

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Speaker 2: has agreed to come and turn off the defibrillator or

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Speaker 2: right before the execution within romes. Days ahead of time.

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Speaker 2: That hospital puts out that statement that you see in

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Speaker 2: front of you.

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Speaker 3: Wow, So here's what the hospital said. Earlier reports of

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Speaker 3: Nashville General Hospital's involvement are inaccurate. The correctional healthcare provider

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Speaker 3: contract contracted by the Tennessee Department of Correction did not

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Speaker 3: contact appropriate Nashville General Hospital leadership with its request to

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Speaker 3: deactivate the implanted defibrillator. Any assertion in the hospital would

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Speaker 3: participate in the procedure was premature.

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Speaker 2: And with that, there was no one to turn off

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Speaker 2: the defibrillator. So this man with all those issues we

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Speaker 2: talked about, with the intellectual disability, with the physical ailments,

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Speaker 2: with the heart condition, and yes, with this thing, it

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Speaker 2: was not turned off, the suggestion being that maybe it

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Speaker 2: could shock him back to life repeatedly. So the execution

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Speaker 2: comes in romes. By many accounts of witnesses, this was awful,

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Speaker 2: including the words I look, I've seen final words, and

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Speaker 2: what are your last words?

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Speaker 1: That's one thing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I can't remember reports of one in which during

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Speaker 2: the execution the inmate was talking or set was trying

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Speaker 2: to communicate something wild.

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Speaker 3: Dying Well, the thought would be that if the drugs

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Speaker 3: were put in his system in the correct order, in

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Speaker 3: the correct way, in the correct amount, you would be incapacitated.

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Speaker 3: You would be asleep, you wouldn't be able to speak.

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Speaker 3: And that's why I would presume we don't hear people

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Speaker 3: saying anything intelligible when they're in the process of dying,

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Speaker 3: because they've been the first drug should have gone in

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Speaker 3: and paralyzed their body, or at least put them to

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Speaker 3: sleep so that they don't feel pain and they can't communicate.

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Speaker 2: You hit it exactly, and they say, mister Black should

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Speaker 2: have been unconscious in a matter of seconds. Instead he

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Speaker 2: was still conscious five minutes into his execution. And to

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Speaker 2: your point, Robes, you would think someone wouldn't be able

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Speaker 2: to come up with something to say to be understood

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Speaker 2: at that point. But stay with us, folks. We will

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Speaker 2: tell you what this man's not just his last words were,

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Speaker 2: but his final plea was as he was dying.

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Speaker 5: Stay here, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, folks, welcome back.

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Speaker 2: We continue now with Byron Black, who was executed earlier

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Speaker 2: this year, and Norman Grimm, said to be executed tomorrow

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Speaker 2: by the state of Florida. Grim going to receive the

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Speaker 2: same fate death by lethal injection that Byron Black did.

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Speaker 2: Byron Black's execution called botched by many, his attorney calling

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Speaker 2: him tortured as he went through the process. And in

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Speaker 2: Tennessee they are challenging now some of the processes and

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Speaker 2: the protocols for going through lethal injection, calling them cruel

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Speaker 2: and unusual, including in Byron Black's case.

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Speaker 1: Robes was just revealed.

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Speaker 2: As we said, the EKG showed that he was still

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Speaker 2: his heart showed sustained cardiac activity after two minutes. But

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Speaker 2: during that execution of Byron Black, he spoke and he

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Speaker 2: let people know that's part of it, like how much pain?

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Speaker 2: And then some judges have ruled in the path like you,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be a level of discomfort. Nobody's going

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Speaker 2: to be one hundred percent comfortable while they're being killed.

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Speaker 2: But still, what level of pain is cruel and unusual?

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Speaker 2: And this was this was a I don't know how

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Speaker 2: to describe necessarily what went down here.

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Speaker 3: Well, especially when you have experts in this area say

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Speaker 3: that if the drug is used correctly and injected correctly,

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Speaker 3: that you should lose consciousness within twenty seconds is what

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Speaker 3: they have said. And so yes, five minutes, it's into it.

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Speaker 3: He's moaning, he's saying, oh, it's hurting so bad. Like

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Speaker 3: he was actually able to say those words out loud

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Speaker 3: so that folks who were witnessing the execution could hear

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Speaker 3: him say it and document it.

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Speaker 4: And then he was moaning in pain for five minutes.

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Speaker 4: They said, that's not how it's supposed to work.

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Speaker 2: I don't believe. So they are challenging this in Tennessee.

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Speaker 2: But again, rogues, we're going through now another execution. Again,

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Speaker 2: there are we talk about this. We go back and forth,

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Speaker 2: and we always say if there's a there's no question,

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Speaker 2: if there's any question about guilt innocence, you should we

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Speaker 2: should take a beat. There isn't a question about guilt

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Speaker 2: or innocence in the Florida case. But now there's there

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Speaker 2: are big questions about the methods.

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Speaker 4: Correct using because some of the Death Penalty.

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Speaker 3: Information Center, we've talked about how we've used a lot

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Speaker 3: of their information, but they talked about how specifically in

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Speaker 3: reference to what happened to mister Black and his execution,

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Speaker 3: they say that of the two hundred autopsies of death

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Speaker 3: row prisoners that's been done over the last several years,

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Speaker 3: that study found that eighty four percent of those death

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Speaker 3: row inmates had pulmonary edemas, which is basically when your

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Speaker 3: lungs fill with fluid and it creates a feeling of

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Speaker 3: suffocation or drowning, and experts say that it actually they

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Speaker 3: liken it to waterboarding, and so they say there's extreme pain.

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Speaker 3: And so this is what's been happening to a lot

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Speaker 3: of these inmates with lethal injection to the point where

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Speaker 3: we have seen and obviously these studies have been out

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Speaker 3: and headlines have been out there, we have seen prisoners

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Speaker 3: in some states choose other methods of execution that seem horrific,

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Speaker 3: like either nitrogen gas or firing squad.

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Speaker 2: Some are pretty quickly if they say, really that if

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Speaker 2: somebody's aim is good, that that's a quick stopping of

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Speaker 2: the heart.

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Speaker 4: Correct.

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Speaker 3: So people, I mean, obviously they're looking for the quickest

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Speaker 3: and least painful way to die, and most inmates, it seems,

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Speaker 3: are concerned about this lethal injection and it's been the

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Speaker 3: thing is, it's been an issue for years now, and.

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Speaker 2: So the next thing is going to be an issue

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Speaker 2: is nitrogen gas, which is being used more and more

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Speaker 2: in particularly what Alabama, Alabama, I think is very prone

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Speaker 2: to use that, but just something else we're keeping an

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Speaker 2: eye on this week. I mean, after we get through

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Speaker 2: this month, there are another fighting five or six on

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Speaker 2: the books in November and getting us through the end

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Speaker 2: of the year. Just it's fascinating to see at the

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Speaker 2: pace that we're on this year robes and where does

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Speaker 2: it lead next year as well. But folks, for now,

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Speaker 2: just wanted to hop on, give you that update. We'll

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Speaker 2: continue to hop on as we see things that are

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Speaker 2: of interest to us, that we think is our interest

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Speaker 2: to you that you should keep an eye on as well.

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Speaker 1: For now, I'm TJ. Holmes along with Amy Black, doctor

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Speaker 1: Auson