WEBVTT - #547 Jason Flom with John Restivo

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here today with a major announcement with my longtime

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<v Speaker 1>producer Connor Hall in a decade's old murder case that

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<v Speaker 1>we covered back in twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this was the wrongful conviction of three men, John

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<v Speaker 2>Restivo who we got to talk to, Dennis Halstead and

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<v Speaker 2>John Coogan, and they were all convicted of a nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty four rape and murder and then they were cleared

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<v Speaker 2>by DNA testing and eventually released in two thousand and three,

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<v Speaker 2>while the actual perpetrator of this entire time has remained

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<v Speaker 2>free up until it appears at least yesterday, October fifteenth,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty five, they arrested an alternate suspect, a now

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<v Speaker 2>sixty three year old man named Richard Billadou Richard Billideau.

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<v Speaker 1>And what's extraordinary about this case. First of all, it

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<v Speaker 1>feels close to home because it is close to home.

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<v Speaker 1>This happened in Long Island. This was a sixteen year

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<v Speaker 1>old girl named Teresa Fusco who had left her job

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<v Speaker 1>working the snow back bar at a Roler Rank in

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<v Speaker 1>lynn Brook, Long Island. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I remember going to birthday parties that skating rink.

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<v Speaker 1>It was called Hot Skates. Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, kid's birthday parties, and then this is going on.

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<v Speaker 1>Police said Teresa Fusco. He had been strangled, sexual assaulted,

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<v Speaker 1>and beaten, and then her body was found under leaves

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<v Speaker 1>and some shipping palace.

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<v Speaker 2>Now there was physical evidence taken in a rape kid,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, I mean this is back in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty four. DNA testing hadn't even been used yet for

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<v Speaker 2>forensic evidence. So these guys had to wait in prison

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<v Speaker 2>while science progressed before being able to use the physical

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<v Speaker 2>evidence in this case to prove their innocence. And they

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<v Speaker 2>did that in nineteen ninety five, at which point they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't just free these guys. They argued that, okay, well

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<v Speaker 2>then that belongs to a fourth guy that you guys

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<v Speaker 2>have just been covering for.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, however many years.

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<v Speaker 2>So it took eight more years to set them free

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<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and three, and then over a decade

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<v Speaker 2>to get them compensation. John Restivo and Dennis Hollist they

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<v Speaker 2>got thirty six million dollars from Nasau County, and they

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<v Speaker 2>appealed that and appeal that and tried to refuse to

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<v Speaker 2>pay them it, and at some point or another, somebody

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<v Speaker 2>in that prosecutor's office decided, hey, maybe we should go

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<v Speaker 2>try to find the actual rapist and murderer. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>sure if that happened with the election of the current

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<v Speaker 2>DA and Donnelly, or maybe it was just somebody else

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<v Speaker 2>in the office, but you know, somebody decided to track

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<v Speaker 2>down this alternate suspect and then get a DNA sample

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<v Speaker 2>from him without him knowing.

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<v Speaker 1>And by the way, kudos to the team that was

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<v Speaker 1>involved in actually finally bringing this. I mean, if he's

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<v Speaker 1>the guy, which is sure seems that way. The DNA

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<v Speaker 1>shows that he is. This is good.

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<v Speaker 2>It's while what he says when he gets picked up

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<v Speaker 2>because they picked up this straw out of the garbage

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<v Speaker 2>that he had just used out of like a smoothie

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<v Speaker 2>or something like that, they pick it up, they swab

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<v Speaker 2>that and it's a match. They go to talk to

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<v Speaker 2>him and he says, well, I don't know anything about that.

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<v Speaker 1>Man.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of people are getting away with murder back.

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<v Speaker 1>Then, Wow up at dollars to donuts that they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to find more horrible crimes attributed to this guy.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately, I think you're right about that. And there's something

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<v Speaker 2>I hope that I'm not right about, which is I

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<v Speaker 2>hope all of a sudden, we don't see a statement

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<v Speaker 2>from this guy Bill Adeo saying, oh yeah, I'm the

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<v Speaker 2>fourth guy, and these three other guys were there with me.

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<v Speaker 2>Now take them back to prison, and you know, give

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<v Speaker 2>me a slap on the wrist for cooperating. Oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and then get that thirty six million dollars back. You're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna have to forgive me for being jaded because of well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what you're going to hear, how depraved. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>the original prosecutors in law enforcement were in this case

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<v Speaker 2>from John Restivo and his attorney Miina Morrison.

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<v Speaker 1>Nina Morrison, who was like the heart and soul of

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<v Speaker 1>the litigation team and strategy team at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>project for many years. She's now a better old judge

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<v Speaker 1>in this case. I know this case really really shook her.

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<v Speaker 2>This was her first case at the Innison's Project.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, that's incredible, you're absolutely right.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, without any further ado, here we go.

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<v Speaker 1>On December fifth, nineteen eighty four, the naked body of

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<v Speaker 1>a sixteen year old girl was found in a wooded

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<v Speaker 1>area of Linbrook, Long Island. The victim had been last

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<v Speaker 1>seen leaving her job at a local roller rink about

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<v Speaker 1>a month earlier. The medical examiner determined that the cause

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<v Speaker 1>of death was ligature strangulation and seamen found on her

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<v Speaker 1>Baginal swabs suggested that she had been raped. By March

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty five, authorities believed that this rape and murder

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<v Speaker 1>were connected to similar disappearance as an investigator started focusing

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<v Speaker 1>on Dennis Halstead, who was believed to have been associated

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<v Speaker 1>with another young woman who had disappeared. John Restivo had

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<v Speaker 1>been interviewed as part of this investigation and mentioned that

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<v Speaker 1>he was acquainted with John Cogan. After Cogd was given

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<v Speaker 1>three polygraphs, police asserted that he lied when denying involvement

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<v Speaker 1>with the disappearance of the sixteen year old victim. He

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<v Speaker 1>endured twelve hours of aggressive interrogation and eventually he cracked

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<v Speaker 1>and signed a confession that was handwritten by one of

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<v Speaker 1>the detectives. According to Kogo's false confession, the victim voluntarily

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<v Speaker 1>got into Restevo's van, where Cogd and Halsted stripped her

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<v Speaker 1>and Halsted raped her. Further into this coerce statement, he

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<v Speaker 1>said that when they arrived at a cemetery, Restevo also

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<v Speaker 1>raped her and coged, strangled her when she regained consciousness,

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<v Speaker 1>and became frantic with the false confession that a number

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<v Speaker 1>of hairs found in Restivo's band said to have matched

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<v Speaker 1>the victims. The three men were tried over the course

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<v Speaker 1>of nineteen eighty six. John Restivo spoke with us at

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<v Speaker 1>the Atlanta Innocence Network conference to tell their horrifying story. Together,

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<v Speaker 1>they spent over half a century in prison for a

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<v Speaker 1>crime they did not come in. This is Wrongful Conviction

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<v Speaker 1>with Jason Plum. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can

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<v Speaker 1>listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts

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<v Speaker 1>one week early and ad free subscribing to Lava for

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<v Speaker 1>Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm especially excited today because I've got a guest who

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<v Speaker 1>I've wanted to have on my podcast from long before

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<v Speaker 1>I even had a podcast. So ever since I read

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<v Speaker 1>your story in The New Yorker, John Restivo, I've been

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<v Speaker 1>sort of in awe of your story, your your case,

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<v Speaker 1>your everything. So I'm really I'm really happy you're here.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, what a long, strange trip has.

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<v Speaker 1>Been and with you. Nina Morrison is a return guest

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<v Speaker 1>on the show today. Nina is the senior staff attorney

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<v Speaker 1>at the Innocence Project in New York. Welcome back, Thank.

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<v Speaker 5>You, Jason. It's always so nice to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>And just by way of background, John was convicted of

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<v Speaker 1>a rape murder along with two other innocent men and

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<v Speaker 1>sentenced to thirty three and a half years of life.

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<v Speaker 1>Could well have been executed if not for Governor Mario

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<v Speaker 1>Cuomo blocking repeatedly the death penalty in New York State.

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<v Speaker 1>But let's go back to it. All these crimes we

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<v Speaker 1>talk about are horrible. This one is particularly terrible, right.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the rape and murder of a young girl,

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<v Speaker 1>sixteen year old girl. And obviously everybody wants to see

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<v Speaker 1>those crimes solved, but they don't want to see it

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<v Speaker 1>solved this way. I mean, when we get the wrong

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<v Speaker 1>people locked up, whoever it is that did this was

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<v Speaker 1>free to commit other heinous crimes. But take us back

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<v Speaker 1>to the crime itself. And how did you first hear

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<v Speaker 1>about it? I mean you were at the time, you

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<v Speaker 1>were in the moving business. What were you doing?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, we should have moving business with my brother, right,

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<v Speaker 4>And when young lady disappeared, we had seen articles in

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<v Speaker 4>the newspaper. There was missing persons fly is on different

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<v Speaker 4>store windows or telephone polls, so people in the community

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<v Speaker 4>knew that the young lady who's mission, which town was

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<v Speaker 4>this just was in Limbrook, New York, in Nasall County

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<v Speaker 4>all around. Yeah, And there was a couple of articles

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<v Speaker 4>in a newspaper. So approximately three weeks later, a body

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<v Speaker 4>is found and it's identified as being her body, and

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<v Speaker 4>now instead of it being a missing person's case, it's

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<v Speaker 4>a homicide.

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<v Speaker 1>And this case, it's got so many layers because you

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<v Speaker 1>have three guys, which makes it really especially tragic because

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<v Speaker 1>the other two guys that were convicted of the same

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<v Speaker 1>time that you were convicted of were just as innocent

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<v Speaker 1>as you were. But one of them confessed, right, and

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<v Speaker 1>we know how that goes as well. But every one

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<v Speaker 1>of those even inside of that false confession, there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of nuance to those situations. Do you want to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about that? Because I was a guy named Kogut, right.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, part of the problem with the interrogation process that

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<v Speaker 4>he was put through is that the police lied to him.

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<v Speaker 4>And I understand, okay, the police are allowed to lie

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<v Speaker 4>to you, but he took a lot to tachfist and

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<v Speaker 4>the police told.

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<v Speaker 3>Him he failed the light like the test.

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<v Speaker 4>And we had experts that actually viewed the you know,

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<v Speaker 4>the polycharts, and our experts said that, you know, he

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<v Speaker 4>didn't lie, right, that he was telling the truth. But

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<v Speaker 4>the detectives used that as a tool against him. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>while this guy is being you know, he's in a

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<v Speaker 4>small room with a couple of these let's call him

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<v Speaker 4>thugs because that's what they are.

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<v Speaker 3>Don't get me wrong.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm not calling all police thugs, and I'm not saying that,

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<v Speaker 4>and that's yeah, so I'm not calling all police bad.

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<v Speaker 4>But so they held that over his head, saying that, okay,

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<v Speaker 4>you lied during the polygraph test, which was an actual lie.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean they were lying to him, right, And.

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<v Speaker 4>Their polygraph expert said, well, I don't really go by

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<v Speaker 4>the charts.

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<v Speaker 3>I go by the person's demeanor and.

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<v Speaker 5>Telegraphs or not.

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<v Speaker 6>You know, people can debate whether they have any utility

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<v Speaker 6>for determined if someone is or is not telling the truth.

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<v Speaker 6>But police have used them for decades as part of

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<v Speaker 6>what they the experts now call it guilt presumptive interrogation,

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<v Speaker 6>where they bring somebody in they've already decided based on

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<v Speaker 6>these subjective factors, like I get a feeling he's not

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<v Speaker 6>telling me the truth, or they think they have other

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<v Speaker 6>evidence the person did it, And once they decide that

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<v Speaker 6>the person is guilty, the interrogation is not a search

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<v Speaker 6>for the truth.

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<v Speaker 5>It's a search for a confession.

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<v Speaker 4>In the false confession, right, everything that the police had known, right,

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<v Speaker 4>every fact that they knew, right, was incorporated into this confession.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, the young.

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<v Speaker 4>Lady disappears in early November of nineteen eighty four. They're

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<v Speaker 4>interrogating COVID in early March of nineteen eighty five. And

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<v Speaker 4>according to the police, in this false confession, this fact's

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<v Speaker 4>coming out of call over of pocabook, color of sneakies.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean things that no normal person could ever remember.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, last week, what did you have for breakfast

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<v Speaker 4>last Monday? I mean, like every fact that was known,

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<v Speaker 4>even like the piece of jewelry that they recovered that

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<v Speaker 4>she had been wearing. Right, he supposedly remembers the type

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<v Speaker 4>of jewelry. And since it was all fictitious to begin with, right,

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<v Speaker 4>every fact that they knew was incorporated into the false

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<v Speaker 4>confession except one thing the police didn't know.

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<v Speaker 3>The colored blouse or.

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<v Speaker 4>Shirt that she was wearing on the night she disappeared,

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<v Speaker 4>and that's the only thing that wasn't incorporated into this

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<v Speaker 4>false confession. So, according to all of the experts, they

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<v Speaker 4>considered as a classic false confession because no normal person

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<v Speaker 4>would be able to actually remember all of these facts.

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<v Speaker 4>There were just too many facts incorporated into this confession

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<v Speaker 4>for it to be reliable.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, now we know that COVID confessed, but how did

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<v Speaker 1>that lead to your case being brought to where it

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<v Speaker 1>went and ultimately you being convicted and almost executed.

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<v Speaker 4>The police they incorporate my name and done this his

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<v Speaker 4>name into the false confession because in a way, the

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<v Speaker 4>police had us labeled as suspects. I don't believe that

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<v Speaker 4>we were labeled as targets. I personally believed that they

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<v Speaker 4>were going to frame us one way to the other.

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<v Speaker 4>Right when done, I wouldn't have a clue. I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 4>have a clue. After COVID confessed falsely confessed, my family

0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.920
<v Speaker 4>retained a private investigator. We're trying to figure out where

0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.480
<v Speaker 4>I was on a night this youngerally disappeared. We figured

0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.760
<v Speaker 4>out where I was through receipts because I had just

0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.840
<v Speaker 4>purchased the house, and that weekend that was standing the floors.

0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.360
<v Speaker 4>I was an out all night that evening. I was

0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:58.480
<v Speaker 4>on the phone with my girlfriend, who was pregnant. We

0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:00.880
<v Speaker 4>were putting poll your thane on the floor so shehes brightnt.

0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:02.840
<v Speaker 4>She couldn't be in an ause she was out of mother.

0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:04.920
<v Speaker 4>So we had phone right kids, we had receipts, so

0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.920
<v Speaker 4>we knew exactly where we were where I was right

0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.720
<v Speaker 4>and Dennis was with his kids in another town, and

0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.600
<v Speaker 4>Kobe was at a birthday party in another town. We

0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.600
<v Speaker 4>didn't even lay eyes on each other that whole weekend.

0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.840
<v Speaker 4>And beyond that, the three of us were never together

0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:26.320
<v Speaker 4>in that van as a threesome ever, And we all

0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.760
<v Speaker 4>had independent alibis. And by the time we got the trial,

0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.760
<v Speaker 4>they took my independent alibi witness because the guy that

0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:34.720
<v Speaker 4>was helping me, he was a friend at the time.

0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.640
<v Speaker 4>He was helping me sand the floors, right. He was

0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.240
<v Speaker 4>at the house all night. The cops picked him up

0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.920
<v Speaker 4>off the street. They bring him in for ten or

0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.200
<v Speaker 4>twelve hours, and they tell him that, well, if you

0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.079
<v Speaker 4>don't tell us what we want to hear, right, you're

0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.920
<v Speaker 4>gonna end up in jail with them so they've actually

0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:58.319
<v Speaker 4>flipped my independent alibi witness from my witness to their witness,

0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:03.120
<v Speaker 4>and he actually gave them testimony against me at trial,

0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:08.280
<v Speaker 4>and at the civil trial, during his testimony, the judge

0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:14.200
<v Speaker 4>actually stopped the proceedings, had the jury removed and told

0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.600
<v Speaker 4>him that you're on the borderline of being charged with

0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:22.400
<v Speaker 4>perjury here because he had changed his testimony so many times, right,

0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:27.360
<v Speaker 4>And when he testified at the criminal trial, he lied right,

0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.440
<v Speaker 4>but they wouldn't give us his original grand jury testimony.

0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:34.600
<v Speaker 4>So it was always my opinion that his testimony was

0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.560
<v Speaker 4>different from what he testified at the grand jury to

0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.800
<v Speaker 4>what he testified two years later at the criminal trial,

0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.080
<v Speaker 4>because during that timespan, the cops put so much pressure

0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:45.800
<v Speaker 4>on this dude and flipped them.

0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, he was in an impossible situation. It

0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:49.640
<v Speaker 1>doesn't excuse what he did.

0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:50.640
<v Speaker 3>No, you're right.

0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.440
<v Speaker 4>In a way, I felt bad for him because he

0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.440
<v Speaker 4>was stuck in the middle of this, right and he's

0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:02.320
<v Speaker 4>under this tremendous amount of pressure police, and he's being told, well,

0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.160
<v Speaker 4>if you don't tell us what we want to hear,

0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:06.400
<v Speaker 4>you're gonna end up in jail with him, and he

0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:10.000
<v Speaker 4>sees innocent people in jail, right, and he sees how

0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.000
<v Speaker 4>easy it was for the police to do that.

0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Exactly. He knows what they're capable of, because he already

0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:16.400
<v Speaker 1>knows you're innocent, and he knows what they're doing, So

0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:18.080
<v Speaker 1>there's no reason to not believe that they would do

0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:19.120
<v Speaker 1>the same rest right.

0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.440
<v Speaker 4>And then we had the other problem with the police

0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.960
<v Speaker 4>planting evidence in the van and the judge because it

0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.880
<v Speaker 4>was a bench trial, so the judge concluded that the

0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.160
<v Speaker 4>hiss that they intimated that were found in my van

0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:35.280
<v Speaker 4>were never in the van.

0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:38.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, And you know, let's talk about that because that

0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:42.120
<v Speaker 1>is even by the standards of some of the crazy

0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.520
<v Speaker 1>shit that we see in this line of work. That's

0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:50.040
<v Speaker 1>going even beyond some of the misconducts, you know, this

0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.640
<v Speaker 1>is so far. They were literally pulling hairs from the

0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.920
<v Speaker 1>corpse and then taking those hairs and putting them in

0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.760
<v Speaker 1>the van, Like who does the thing like that? Well?

0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:00.440
<v Speaker 5>Who does it?

0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.720
<v Speaker 6>Are police who are desperate to solve a crime that

0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:07.360
<v Speaker 6>has the community absolutely terrified and up in arms. So

0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.800
<v Speaker 6>what John talked about earlier about the flyers around town,

0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.680
<v Speaker 6>I mean this was the mid eighties, you know, bedroom community,

0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:16.840
<v Speaker 6>suburban Long Island, the young woman who was killed in

0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.080
<v Speaker 6>the case that John was falsely convicted, and her name

0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:23.040
<v Speaker 6>is Teresa Fusco, was actually one of three young women

0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.560
<v Speaker 6>that went missing around that time, and the other two

0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.440
<v Speaker 6>to this day, those crimes have never been solved, and

0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:29.800
<v Speaker 6>for all we know, it may have been the same

0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:33.200
<v Speaker 6>killer or killers in those cases. But by the time

0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.080
<v Speaker 6>Teresa disappeared, she was missing for what was it, John

0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.960
<v Speaker 6>three weeks? Three week, about three weeks before her body

0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.280
<v Speaker 6>was found. So the terror and the paranoia that they're

0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:45.200
<v Speaker 6>feeling in this town is only heightening, and the parents

0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 6>and elected officials, the teachers are saying, solve this crime,

0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 6>solve this crime. And after she was found naked, brutalized

0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.120
<v Speaker 6>in the woods, just a horrible way to go, you know.

0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:58.280
<v Speaker 6>The police spent months basically bringing in every working class

0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.040
<v Speaker 6>guy between the ages of eighteen in twenty nine in

0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:03.720
<v Speaker 6>town and working them over, trying to see if they

0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.280
<v Speaker 6>could find a weak spot until they get poor John

0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:08.239
<v Speaker 6>Kogd who had had a really rough life grown up

0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:08.960
<v Speaker 6>in foster care.

0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.160
<v Speaker 5>Nobody to fight for him, and even he held.

0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.199
<v Speaker 6>Out for hours and hours until he finally confessed, you know,

0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.800
<v Speaker 6>and gave a false confession that as John said, was

0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.560
<v Speaker 6>a classic false confession, and that it had no information

0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.000
<v Speaker 6>that the police didn't already know, so he couldn't point

0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.520
<v Speaker 6>them to clothing or jewelry or fruits of the crime,

0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:31.240
<v Speaker 6>or anything about her that wasn't part of the police's knowledge.

0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.000
<v Speaker 6>But everything they did know almost too perfectly. But when

0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.000
<v Speaker 6>it came to the hair. As part of what was

0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:38.879
<v Speaker 6>wrong with this case when they decided they were going

0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.800
<v Speaker 6>to pin it on John and his two friends, is that.

0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:43.040
<v Speaker 5>They had no physical evidence.

0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:46.800
<v Speaker 6>There was no evidence against them, no DNA, no blood typing,

0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 6>nothing of hers that was ever found with them, no

0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.000
<v Speaker 6>eyewitnesses as far as anybody knew at the time, who

0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:55.399
<v Speaker 6>had seen what vehicles she'd gotten into, and she was

0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:59.040
<v Speaker 6>leaving her job at a roller skating rink. And you know,

0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.760
<v Speaker 6>we don't say light that police frame people. I mean

0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.000
<v Speaker 6>a lot of times police will make bad mistakes, they

0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.000
<v Speaker 6>will cut corners, they will interview witnesses in a way

0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.360
<v Speaker 6>that's not ethical or permissible. But in this case, there

0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.760
<v Speaker 6>is actual scientific evidence that John.

0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:13.879
<v Speaker 5>And his co defendants got framed.

0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:18.520
<v Speaker 6>Namely, Detective Vulpi, the lead homicide detective, claimed that he

0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:22.120
<v Speaker 6>found several hairs when he finally got a search warrant

0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:24.879
<v Speaker 6>for John's van when he used for his moving jobs.

0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.959
<v Speaker 6>He claimed that he found several hairs that were long hairs,

0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.639
<v Speaker 6>looked just like Teresa's and microscopically appeared to be the

0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.119
<v Speaker 6>same as Teresa's hairs. We later did DNA and confirmed

0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:37.880
<v Speaker 6>that they were in fact her hairs. So that would

0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:39.520
<v Speaker 6>be pretty bad evidence, and normally you'd think, well, that

0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.680
<v Speaker 6>makes John guilty. The problem was those hairs would have

0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.159
<v Speaker 6>had to be deposited in the van during this period

0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.680
<v Speaker 6>when John and his friends were alleged to have abducted.

0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:49.560
<v Speaker 5>Her for just a few minutes.

0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:51.639
<v Speaker 6>According to the confession, they had given her a ride

0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:53.680
<v Speaker 6>and then raped her, and she was in the van

0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.000
<v Speaker 6>for not longer, certainly no more than an hour, and

0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:57.560
<v Speaker 6>then she was missing for several weeks.

0:18:58.200 --> 0:18:59.960
<v Speaker 5>But the hairs came from a court.

0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.280
<v Speaker 6>They had this decomposition at the roots of the hairs

0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.320
<v Speaker 6>called post mortem root banding, which basically happens when hairs

0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.360
<v Speaker 6>are attached to a corpse that's decomposing. And so detective

0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.679
<v Speaker 6>Vaultpi takes these hairs and whether he planted them in

0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:14.960
<v Speaker 6>the van or just put them in an envelope marked

0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:16.879
<v Speaker 6>hairs from van that was back at the lab. We

0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.640
<v Speaker 6>don't know and doesn't really matter, but he lied under

0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:21.880
<v Speaker 6>oath and said that these hairs came from the van.

0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:26.280
<v Speaker 6>And it's physically impossible because she had been decomposing for

0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.399
<v Speaker 6>several weeks when these when these hairs were collected, they

0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:30.440
<v Speaker 6>were from her autopsy, not.

0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:30.800
<v Speaker 1>From the van.

0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:35.760
<v Speaker 4>I mean, these detectives actually created a fictitious scenario after

0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:40.520
<v Speaker 4>they actually watched what we think was the actual crime scene.

0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:45.600
<v Speaker 4>And unbeknownst to us, the night she disappeared, a car

0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.399
<v Speaker 4>within approximately a mile of which she was last seen

0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:55.000
<v Speaker 4>was stolen, and when this car was recovered approximately a

0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:59.840
<v Speaker 4>week later, they found a pair of blue striped g

0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:04.200
<v Speaker 4>means with one of the legs inside out in the back,

0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.880
<v Speaker 4>but stuff underneath the seat, and on a missing persons

0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.720
<v Speaker 4>report when she was last seen, that's what she was wearing,

0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:13.200
<v Speaker 4>blue stripe jeans.

0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:15.280
<v Speaker 3>So the homicide cops.

0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:19.159
<v Speaker 4>Grabbed this car right, which was already cleaned by the owner,

0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.760
<v Speaker 4>and the blue striped jeans were thrown out by.

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:23.880
<v Speaker 3>The Limberth Police department.

0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:29.119
<v Speaker 4>So there was police reports regarding the stolen car and

0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:32.440
<v Speaker 4>the blue striped jeans right, and then there was a

0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:36.920
<v Speaker 4>piece of rope missing from the car. And according to them, right,

0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:41.040
<v Speaker 4>there was a piece of rope similar used as what

0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.200
<v Speaker 4>would you say, the murder weapon, right, and this was

0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.520
<v Speaker 4>missing from the car. When they brought the owner back

0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:50.520
<v Speaker 4>to the area where the car was recovered, they found

0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:51.280
<v Speaker 4>the piece of rope.

0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:53.960
<v Speaker 3>But they took a picture of the piece of rope.

0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:58.440
<v Speaker 4>And one would think that given the significance of that,

0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.800
<v Speaker 4>this piece of rope would be taken into evidence and vouched,

0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:03.760
<v Speaker 4>and the police say it never was.

0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:06.199
<v Speaker 3>So this is information that.

0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:08.920
<v Speaker 4>Should have been turned over to the defense, and it

0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.919
<v Speaker 4>never was. And we never found out about this information

0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:17.280
<v Speaker 4>till we were in the civil litigation stage twenty something

0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:17.880
<v Speaker 4>years later.

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:18.960
<v Speaker 3>Correct, I was.

0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.840
<v Speaker 6>John's innocence project lawyer. We didn't know about this information.

0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:23.240
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:25.320
<v Speaker 6>A lot of times, as you know and a lot

0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.879
<v Speaker 6>of your guests have talked about there's evidence pointing to

0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.800
<v Speaker 6>someone's innocence, and you know, certainly in this case, this

0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:36.040
<v Speaker 6>is evidence about where the crime occurred and what type

0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.160
<v Speaker 6>of vehicle was used, which is a huge objective lead

0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.320
<v Speaker 6>that's different than the entire case that was against John

0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:46.240
<v Speaker 6>and his co defendants, but that is evidence. Often we

0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:48.800
<v Speaker 6>learn about that when we're in post conviction, meaning the

0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.560
<v Speaker 6>person's been convicted and we're litigating their appeals and we're

0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:54.520
<v Speaker 6>trying to exonerate them. In John's case, as I'll tell you,

0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.920
<v Speaker 6>we cleared him with DNA and other evidence that we gathered,

0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.760
<v Speaker 6>but we didn't even know about this other evidence the

0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:05.399
<v Speaker 6>police had of his innocence until after he was exonerated.

0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.040
<v Speaker 6>It only came out when he had lawyers representing him

0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:10.440
<v Speaker 6>in his lawsuit against the police department in the county

0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:11.720
<v Speaker 6>that this all came to light.

0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:12.800
<v Speaker 5>So it's a really.

0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:16.560
<v Speaker 6>Stunning fact that you can have evidence of innocence that's hidden,

0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:19.119
<v Speaker 6>possibly even from the DA's because he was in the

0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:22.719
<v Speaker 6>police file and only come out after someone's exonerated. And

0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.320
<v Speaker 6>so his case is a DNA exoneration case, But as

0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:27.720
<v Speaker 6>with so many, there's other evidence that could have cleared

0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:29.080
<v Speaker 6>him even before he went to trial.

0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:46.520
<v Speaker 1>As the son of a police officer, this must have

0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.560
<v Speaker 1>been totally surreal to you. Bright And was your dad

0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:50.920
<v Speaker 1>around Was he alive at this time?

0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:54.400
<v Speaker 4>My father passed away in January of eighty four, so

0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:58.399
<v Speaker 4>he wasn't around. But my father said something to me

0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:00.400
<v Speaker 4>at one time while he was on the job.

0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:04.520
<v Speaker 3>If you ever have a problem with a top, call oil.

0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:10.639
<v Speaker 4>And when the police brought me in and interrogated me

0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:13.720
<v Speaker 4>for twenty plus hours.

0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:16.679
<v Speaker 3>Once I was released, I immediately called a.

0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.359
<v Speaker 1>W why did you call oil? At first, they.

0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:21.520
<v Speaker 4>Wouldn't let me leave, They took my clock keys. I mean,

0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:23.159
<v Speaker 4>they wuldn't let me call the oier. You know I

0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:26.400
<v Speaker 4>was there. I mean, they weren't letting me go anywhere.

0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:30.040
<v Speaker 4>And finally they let me go. And after twenty hours,

0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:31.560
<v Speaker 4>I was so out of it. They wouldn't even let

0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:34.640
<v Speaker 4>me drive home. They drove me home and drove my call.

0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:38.480
<v Speaker 1>There's so many things wrong with this that I'm just like.

0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:41.720
<v Speaker 3>No, I'm just glad it's over it. But what the

0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:44.840
<v Speaker 3>cops did to me they can do to whoever they please.

0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:45.560
<v Speaker 3>I mean they could.

0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:47.560
<v Speaker 4>They could pick somebody out of a group and make

0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:51.000
<v Speaker 4>them a target and then they fabricate a case around them.

0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:52.880
<v Speaker 3>And that's exactly what they did to us.

0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:56.880
<v Speaker 4>Because from day one I requested DNA testing, and back

0:23:56.920 --> 0:23:59.520
<v Speaker 4>in the eighties mid eighties, there was no DNA testing,

0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:02.560
<v Speaker 4>And back in ninety three, ninety four, ninety five, we

0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:06.359
<v Speaker 4>had three different DNA tests done. One was inclusive to

0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:09.560
<v Speaker 4>two other ones excluded us, and back in ninety five,

0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:11.720
<v Speaker 4>I thought we were going to get cut loose. I

0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:13.800
<v Speaker 4>thought that was going to be the end of the gospel.

0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:15.040
<v Speaker 3>That wasn't the case.

0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:16.880
<v Speaker 6>The judge should have been one of the first DNA

0:24:17.160 --> 0:24:19.680
<v Speaker 6>namies in the country because he was going in pro

0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:21.840
<v Speaker 6>se and he had a lawyer who was helping him

0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:25.080
<v Speaker 6>out for some of that time, you know, early on,

0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.119
<v Speaker 6>and he's incredibly smart, and he was researching and filing

0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:31.240
<v Speaker 6>his own emotions. He had a DNA test from sperm

0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.760
<v Speaker 6>from a sixteen year old girl who was a virgin

0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:38.679
<v Speaker 6>that didn't come back to him or Dennis or John Cogit,

0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:43.320
<v Speaker 6>and the DAS said, eh, doesn't matter. Could have been

0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:46.080
<v Speaker 6>a fourth guy, right, fourth guy, there's a third guy.

0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:48.480
<v Speaker 5>There's a second guy. There was one guy. It was

0:24:48.520 --> 0:24:50.320
<v Speaker 5>his sperm and it wasn't any of these guys.

0:24:50.760 --> 0:24:53.520
<v Speaker 6>And he goes to court and the judges back then

0:24:53.560 --> 0:24:55.720
<v Speaker 6>weren't as educated as they are now about DNA and

0:24:55.720 --> 0:24:58.640
<v Speaker 6>what it shows, and you know, he had different lawyers

0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:02.160
<v Speaker 6>and they said, sorry, not giving you a new trial.

0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:05.320
<v Speaker 6>And so there he was, you know, in the mid nineties,

0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:07.080
<v Speaker 6>starting a scare one again.

0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:10.119
<v Speaker 1>I think probably everyone at home is experiencing the same

0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:13.600
<v Speaker 1>or in your car, or you're listening the same thing

0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:15.800
<v Speaker 1>that I'm experiencing, which is that that sounds like a

0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:18.760
<v Speaker 1>misprint or a misstatement that can't really be true.

0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:22.280
<v Speaker 4>The prosecutor is actually lying in their papers about the

0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:26.160
<v Speaker 4>reliability of the tests. They insinuated that the test results

0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:32.240
<v Speaker 4>were not reliable, which is ludicrous because there's two independent

0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:37.399
<v Speaker 4>tests done by two independent labs and they identify the

0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:42.560
<v Speaker 4>same exact DNA profile. So if one lab made a mistake,

0:25:43.280 --> 0:25:47.080
<v Speaker 4>how could the other lab, independent lab make the same

0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:52.160
<v Speaker 4>mistake and identify the exact same DNA profile. So when

0:25:52.160 --> 0:25:55.800
<v Speaker 4>they argued in their papers that the tests weren't reliable,

0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:59.800
<v Speaker 4>I mean, that was totally ludicrous, and the judge adopted

0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:01.880
<v Speaker 4>old it is insanity.

0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:05.560
<v Speaker 6>And then, if I remember correctly, after they realized they

0:26:05.560 --> 0:26:07.560
<v Speaker 6>weren't getting anywhere for a while, the judge was getting

0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:10.800
<v Speaker 6>skeptical of the reliability argument. Then they said, well, the

0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:13.119
<v Speaker 6>only thing that was tested for this last round was

0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:17.000
<v Speaker 6>off of a vaginal slide, which is a glass slide

0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:20.639
<v Speaker 6>that the medical examiner or autopsy makes from the cotton

0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:23.480
<v Speaker 6>swab that was actually had most of the sperm and

0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:26.160
<v Speaker 6>the semen on it, and it was just the one.

0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:27.200
<v Speaker 5>Part of the slide.

0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:31.200
<v Speaker 6>So maybe these three guys who we convicted, maybe their

0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:33.359
<v Speaker 6>DNA was on the rest of the slide or on

0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:36.080
<v Speaker 6>the swabs, and we just don't have enough material.

0:26:36.200 --> 0:26:38.000
<v Speaker 5>So you had to believe two things.

0:26:38.040 --> 0:26:40.800
<v Speaker 6>One that the test was missing all of their DNA,

0:26:41.200 --> 0:26:44.199
<v Speaker 6>but also that they had some crime partner. This mystery

0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:47.520
<v Speaker 6>John Doe, who was the fourth guy whose name didn't

0:26:47.520 --> 0:26:49.680
<v Speaker 6>come up in the confession, didn't come up from any

0:26:49.680 --> 0:26:52.040
<v Speaker 6>of the informants, didn't come up from any of the witnesses,

0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:54.400
<v Speaker 6>you know who everybody had been covering up.

0:26:54.359 --> 0:26:57.639
<v Speaker 5>For this last ten years, which was absurd, but the

0:26:57.680 --> 0:26:58.280
<v Speaker 5>courts bought it.

0:26:58.440 --> 0:27:01.640
<v Speaker 6>And so then they basically gave John a challenge, which

0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:03.000
<v Speaker 6>was prove us wrong.

0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:05.040
<v Speaker 5>Prove to us that your DNA is not really there.

0:27:05.800 --> 0:27:08.360
<v Speaker 3>And then we did that right.

0:27:08.320 --> 0:27:11.600
<v Speaker 4>In two thousand and one, there was a small portion

0:27:11.920 --> 0:27:17.480
<v Speaker 4>of sample left and they retested it using new methodology

0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:20.920
<v Speaker 4>where it would be able to run that result through

0:27:20.960 --> 0:27:25.800
<v Speaker 4>the federal and state databases, you know, through codis right,

0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:29.879
<v Speaker 4>and again when they tested that, it comes back matching

0:27:29.920 --> 0:27:32.920
<v Speaker 4>the same DNA profile that came back in the nineties.

0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:33.480
<v Speaker 1>Amazing.

0:27:34.520 --> 0:27:37.199
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And they ran it through Codis hoping that they

0:27:37.200 --> 0:27:40.000
<v Speaker 4>would get a hit, right, And since they didn't get

0:27:40.040 --> 0:27:45.320
<v Speaker 4>a hit, they're still maintaining that it's not reliable. Then

0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:51.320
<v Speaker 4>in two thousand and two I met Nina Morrison and

0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:55.639
<v Speaker 4>IP took on more involvement in the case. Right, and

0:27:55.640 --> 0:27:59.119
<v Speaker 4>he got U all independent lawyers, right, They got lawyers

0:27:59.119 --> 0:28:02.760
<v Speaker 4>for dentists, they got law for John And in early

0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:06.080
<v Speaker 4>two thousand and three, Nina and a couple of little

0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:12.120
<v Speaker 4>lawyers went to inventory evidence that the police had and

0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:14.760
<v Speaker 4>lo and Behold.

0:28:13.800 --> 0:28:14.840
<v Speaker 5>For photos and maps.

0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:17.080
<v Speaker 6>We were looking for some old photos related to another

0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:19.639
<v Speaker 6>part of our investigation, and they wouldn't just send us

0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:21.160
<v Speaker 6>the photos, so we said, fine, can we come looks

0:28:21.160 --> 0:28:21.800
<v Speaker 6>at the boxes?

0:28:22.160 --> 0:28:23.040
<v Speaker 5>So we were out there with.

0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:25.280
<v Speaker 6>An Assistantda, who was new to the office, relatively new,

0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:27.680
<v Speaker 6>and she said, yeah, let's just go look for the boxes.

0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:28.120
<v Speaker 3>And we'll behold.

0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:31.439
<v Speaker 4>They found a plastic envelope with a glass tube in

0:28:31.480 --> 0:28:35.080
<v Speaker 4>it and a swab in it, and it has the

0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:38.360
<v Speaker 4>case number and Teresa Fusko's name on it and it's

0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:39.520
<v Speaker 4>vouched by Volpi.

0:28:40.000 --> 0:28:41.040
<v Speaker 3>And after they.

0:28:41.080 --> 0:28:44.040
<v Speaker 4>Insinuated all the MIAs that there's no samples left to

0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:46.600
<v Speaker 4>be tested. It was right there in the box, you know,

0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:48.960
<v Speaker 4>in the DA's officer in the police headed quotas wherever

0:28:49.000 --> 0:28:52.600
<v Speaker 4>they were, and Nina scene is and the DA scene is,

0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:56.440
<v Speaker 4>and then now they had to collaborate. Okay, now where

0:28:56.480 --> 0:28:58.320
<v Speaker 4>are we going to send us to have it tested?

0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:00.680
<v Speaker 4>And they sent it out to have it tested. And

0:29:00.720 --> 0:29:04.000
<v Speaker 4>this is his sample that was never touched, so it's

0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:05.440
<v Speaker 4>in pristine condition.

0:29:05.720 --> 0:29:08.440
<v Speaker 6>If anybody had you know, raped her, that DNA is

0:29:08.480 --> 0:29:10.680
<v Speaker 6>going to be on there. So they had said for years,

0:29:10.720 --> 0:29:12.880
<v Speaker 6>well the other guys, you know, John and his co defendants,

0:29:12.880 --> 0:29:15.880
<v Speaker 6>their DNA was there. We just burned all the samples,

0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:18.720
<v Speaker 6>so we can't protest it now. And then suddenly we

0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:21.520
<v Speaker 6>had this big intact swab that everybody said was gone

0:29:21.560 --> 0:29:26.080
<v Speaker 6>for fifteen years that was finally available, and not surprising

0:29:26.160 --> 0:29:28.120
<v Speaker 6>to any of us, we tested it and guess what,

0:29:28.280 --> 0:29:31.320
<v Speaker 6>it's the same guy whose profile has been coming up

0:29:31.360 --> 0:29:33.720
<v Speaker 6>again and again, but this time because it was such

0:29:33.760 --> 0:29:37.120
<v Speaker 6>a big sample, the DA's office finally, you know, that,

0:29:37.160 --> 0:29:39.760
<v Speaker 6>plus a whole lot of other evidence we gathered, we

0:29:39.800 --> 0:29:42.360
<v Speaker 6>went out and made a presentation to them, a whole

0:29:42.360 --> 0:29:44.280
<v Speaker 6>coalition of people that really did take a village. It

0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:47.000
<v Speaker 6>was my very first innisance project case. I was a

0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:51.160
<v Speaker 6>young lawyer and very motivated, shall we say, and a

0:29:51.160 --> 0:29:53.560
<v Speaker 6>whole bunch of us enturing ministries the Unison's project to

0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:56.800
<v Speaker 6>Delmernard and then my old law schoolassmate Terry Maroney who

0:29:56.880 --> 0:29:59.440
<v Speaker 6>was a lawyer at a big firm. We all did

0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:02.840
<v Speaker 6>this big presentation with Barrysheck together and got them to

0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:04.760
<v Speaker 6>finally agree. They actually came in and agreed we didn't

0:30:04.760 --> 0:30:15.000
<v Speaker 6>have to go to court. They agreed to throughout their convictions.

0:30:20.440 --> 0:30:23.680
<v Speaker 1>You had a kind of a bright future at the time, right,

0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:27.760
<v Speaker 1>you had a pregnant girlfriend. Right, you had a good job. Right,

0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:31.680
<v Speaker 1>you had a career that was growing. And all of

0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:36.320
<v Speaker 1>a sudden you're accused and ultimately convicted of the worst

0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:38.880
<v Speaker 1>crime that anyone could be convicted of, right, I think,

0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:41.160
<v Speaker 1>which is the rape and murder of an underage person,

0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:44.040
<v Speaker 1>child and a teenager or whatever. How did you deal

0:30:44.080 --> 0:30:45.920
<v Speaker 1>with this? And then you had to go through this

0:30:46.320 --> 0:30:49.760
<v Speaker 1>eighteen years in the maximum security prisons. I mean, can

0:30:49.800 --> 0:30:50.880
<v Speaker 1>you kick us through that.

0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:53.880
<v Speaker 4>In the beginning and turn my life upside down and

0:30:53.960 --> 0:30:58.520
<v Speaker 4>turned my family's life upside down. But that being said,

0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:05.040
<v Speaker 4>my family always supported me. Right, my original trial lawyer

0:31:05.320 --> 0:31:07.560
<v Speaker 4>always supported me, and everybody.

0:31:07.160 --> 0:31:08.560
<v Speaker 3>Always believes in my innocence.

0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:12.440
<v Speaker 4>And I had the one thing going for me that

0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:16.880
<v Speaker 4>I knew that not only was I innocent, that I

0:31:17.000 --> 0:31:20.920
<v Speaker 4>was framed because I watched the evidence come out during

0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:24.480
<v Speaker 4>the course of the trial. Right, so I knew that

0:31:24.560 --> 0:31:28.280
<v Speaker 4>I was framed. Now it was up to me to

0:31:28.440 --> 0:31:32.280
<v Speaker 4>prove all it is. So I ended up in the penitentiary,

0:31:33.120 --> 0:31:36.640
<v Speaker 4>and I started going to the law library and I

0:31:36.680 --> 0:31:40.360
<v Speaker 4>started teaching myself how to use the books. I taught

0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:43.800
<v Speaker 4>myself how to become a legal writer. I don't want

0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:47.800
<v Speaker 4>to say a legal scholar, but I became a legal writer.

0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:51.320
<v Speaker 4>And I started writing and writing, and I started writing

0:31:51.440 --> 0:31:56.240
<v Speaker 4>letters to all kinds of organizations or individuals seeking help.

0:31:56.960 --> 0:31:58.920
<v Speaker 3>And I wrote.

0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:05.320
<v Speaker 4>Censuring ministries in nineteen eighty seven and started corresponding with them.

0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:08.440
<v Speaker 4>And then I started corresponding with the Innostance Project.

0:32:09.040 --> 0:32:10.080
<v Speaker 3>And you know, there.

0:32:10.040 --> 0:32:12.840
<v Speaker 4>Was a lot of setbacks, you know, like because originally

0:32:12.920 --> 0:32:16.280
<v Speaker 4>when we exprat the DNA testing, the dis Returnings Office

0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:17.200
<v Speaker 4>refused to do it.

0:32:17.640 --> 0:32:20.120
<v Speaker 3>This is no way we're not going to do that.

0:32:20.520 --> 0:32:24.400
<v Speaker 4>And this was in the late eighties because DNA was

0:32:24.440 --> 0:32:27.360
<v Speaker 4>first used in a criminal case. I think it was

0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:31.280
<v Speaker 4>nineteen eighty eight or nineteen eighty nine, something like that,

0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:34.320
<v Speaker 4>and I think it was an Oldding County case. And

0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:36.120
<v Speaker 4>so I wrote my lawyer, I mean, if they're going

0:32:36.160 --> 0:32:38.600
<v Speaker 4>to use this to convict somebody, why can't we use

0:32:38.640 --> 0:32:40.240
<v Speaker 4>this to exonerate us?

0:32:40.520 --> 0:32:43.560
<v Speaker 3>Right? And I got letters.

0:32:43.240 --> 0:32:48.000
<v Speaker 4>Signed by John by Dennis Agreen to have this DNA

0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:52.160
<v Speaker 4>test done in my lawyer correct, right, because I'm not

0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:54.200
<v Speaker 4>doing this just for me. I mean, this is a

0:32:54.200 --> 0:32:57.680
<v Speaker 4>frame job, it's not like So we all agree, and

0:32:58.040 --> 0:33:02.600
<v Speaker 4>my lawyer filed the motion the judge, and then my

0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:05.600
<v Speaker 4>lawyer went on his own writing campaign to the DA,

0:33:05.880 --> 0:33:10.440
<v Speaker 4>and finally, on the eve of when New York State

0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:13.960
<v Speaker 4>legislature was getting ready to sign the post conviction Statute

0:33:14.080 --> 0:33:19.280
<v Speaker 4>for forty to allow DNA testing, the prosecutors or the

0:33:19.360 --> 0:33:24.400
<v Speaker 4>DA's office finally agreed to do the DNA testing. And

0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:27.760
<v Speaker 4>that's why DNA testing occurred in ninety three, ninety four, five,

0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:30.040
<v Speaker 4>or otherwise, if that legislation wasn't going to be on

0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:33.080
<v Speaker 4>the books, they would probably continue to refuse it, even

0:33:33.160 --> 0:33:36.360
<v Speaker 4>though you know, people at that point were being exonerated

0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:39.440
<v Speaker 4>because of the results of the DNA tests. These people

0:33:39.760 --> 0:33:43.240
<v Speaker 4>fought tooth and nail against this DNA test, and then

0:33:43.280 --> 0:33:46.240
<v Speaker 4>when we finally got the DNA test are going, they

0:33:46.440 --> 0:33:49.640
<v Speaker 4>just finds it unreliable, like we mentioned before. But you know,

0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:52.640
<v Speaker 4>I always had this hope, right and then you know,

0:33:52.760 --> 0:33:56.560
<v Speaker 4>things started falling together with more people getting involved, and

0:33:56.600 --> 0:33:59.680
<v Speaker 4>the more people that got involved and more confident I

0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:03.560
<v Speaker 4>felt I was going to one day be vindicated.

0:34:04.320 --> 0:34:08.840
<v Speaker 1>It seems like it would have been really easy for

0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:11.440
<v Speaker 1>you to either give up or get consumed by anger,

0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:15.080
<v Speaker 1>because this was not a situation where it was a mistake.

0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:19.319
<v Speaker 1>This was a situation where you were deliberately prosecuted and

0:34:19.400 --> 0:34:24.480
<v Speaker 1>persecuted by people who did you incredible harm and also

0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:28.879
<v Speaker 1>deny justice to the family who must have been fucking devastated.

0:34:28.920 --> 0:34:32.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean, like, as a father, I can't imagine, you

0:34:32.200 --> 0:34:34.200
<v Speaker 1>know what they went through, and then there's no justice

0:34:34.200 --> 0:34:37.480
<v Speaker 1>for them either. So is there a secret that you

0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:39.759
<v Speaker 1>could share that allowed you to sort of find this

0:34:39.880 --> 0:34:42.759
<v Speaker 1>extra gear and instead of banging your head against the

0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:44.799
<v Speaker 1>wall or doing whatever, you channeled this.

0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:48.040
<v Speaker 4>It seems like this is going to sound strange, but

0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:50.320
<v Speaker 4>I still use this line today.

0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:52.960
<v Speaker 3>It could be worse right.

0:34:53.280 --> 0:34:57.239
<v Speaker 4>And I was facing a level of adversity that the

0:34:57.320 --> 0:35:03.239
<v Speaker 4>average person could never understand. While I was inside, I

0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:07.520
<v Speaker 4>read a lot, but I didn't read, you know, novels.

0:35:07.840 --> 0:35:10.680
<v Speaker 4>I read a lot of nonfiction. I read a lot

0:35:10.719 --> 0:35:14.200
<v Speaker 4>about World War Two. I read a lot about POWs.

0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:18.560
<v Speaker 4>So I'm putting in my brain like, okay, me doing

0:35:18.640 --> 0:35:20.520
<v Speaker 4>this life sentence for somebody didn't do.

0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:23.000
<v Speaker 3>How does that compare to an eighteen.

0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:25.920
<v Speaker 4>Year old kid that is pushed onto the beach in

0:35:26.000 --> 0:35:29.400
<v Speaker 4>Normandy and you know it lives for five minutes and

0:35:29.440 --> 0:35:34.600
<v Speaker 4>he's gone, right, or a pow in the Philippines that

0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:38.560
<v Speaker 4>is being tortured every day. So I'm putting my adversity

0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:42.680
<v Speaker 4>in kind of perspective of, you know, adversity that other

0:35:42.680 --> 0:35:45.399
<v Speaker 4>people in worse situations that I was in.

0:35:45.640 --> 0:35:47.640
<v Speaker 3>Right, at least I was getting, you know, three meals

0:35:47.680 --> 0:35:48.000
<v Speaker 3>a day.

0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:52.520
<v Speaker 4>I wasn't being physically tortured, nobody was pulling my fingernails out.

0:35:52.760 --> 0:35:55.200
<v Speaker 4>I put it all in perspective of, you know, a

0:35:55.200 --> 0:35:59.040
<v Speaker 4>peow in the Philippines or a peow in Vietnam, and

0:35:59.040 --> 0:36:01.200
<v Speaker 4>and I got it in my brain, well, at the end.

0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:03.319
<v Speaker 3>Of the day, I don't belong here. But it could

0:36:03.320 --> 0:36:03.720
<v Speaker 3>be worse.

0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:06.120
<v Speaker 6>John's too modest to talk about this, but I'm going

0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:09.279
<v Speaker 6>to say he also spent a lot of time when

0:36:09.280 --> 0:36:12.080
<v Speaker 6>he was in prison trying to make it a less

0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:15.440
<v Speaker 6>horrible place for other people, and also helping people on

0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:17.640
<v Speaker 6>the outside. So among the many things he did, like

0:36:17.640 --> 0:36:19.799
<v Speaker 6>when I first talked to his prison counselor, she just

0:36:20.760 --> 0:36:23.000
<v Speaker 6>blew out my phone with oh my god, John, He's

0:36:23.080 --> 0:36:23.839
<v Speaker 6>just incredible.

0:36:24.120 --> 0:36:25.279
<v Speaker 5>I want him to go home, but what are we

0:36:25.320 --> 0:36:26.040
<v Speaker 5>going to do without him?

0:36:26.080 --> 0:36:29.680
<v Speaker 6>He was a HIV AIDS counselor for other inmates, either

0:36:29.719 --> 0:36:32.000
<v Speaker 6>on how to avoid contracting the disease or helping him

0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:34.720
<v Speaker 6>deal with their diagnoses, even though he was a street

0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.040
<v Speaker 6>man who was HIV negative at a time in the

0:36:37.080 --> 0:36:39.440
<v Speaker 6>eighties and nineties when people were scared to talk about AIDS,

0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:42.640
<v Speaker 6>much less work directly with people who were affected. He

0:36:42.760 --> 0:36:44.960
<v Speaker 6>worked with mentally ill and mad's, the guys that everybody

0:36:45.000 --> 0:36:47.799
<v Speaker 6>thought was crazy and were prized at the prison, and

0:36:47.880 --> 0:36:49.760
<v Speaker 6>he was just trying to help them get the medication

0:36:49.840 --> 0:36:52.440
<v Speaker 6>they needed and the support they needed. And then people

0:36:52.440 --> 0:36:55.680
<v Speaker 6>on the outside, I know who John was like their

0:36:55.680 --> 0:36:58.400
<v Speaker 6>phone buddy, you know, family friends and young nieces and

0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:01.279
<v Speaker 6>nephews who he would call once a week and like

0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:03.520
<v Speaker 6>talk them through their problems in school, their issues with

0:37:03.560 --> 0:37:05.719
<v Speaker 6>their families. You know, all the while he's facing the

0:37:05.719 --> 0:37:09.360
<v Speaker 6>most unimaginable thing any of us think we could go through.

0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:11.799
<v Speaker 6>And that's just a testament to who he is and how.

0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:12.359
<v Speaker 5>Strong he is.

0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:15.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm glad you said that, because that is an awesome

0:37:15.360 --> 0:37:18.200
<v Speaker 1>thing to hear from me. I'm sure many other people

0:37:18.200 --> 0:37:21.239
<v Speaker 1>who are going through whatever they're going through to hear

0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:24.359
<v Speaker 1>your perspective on that. And here then, Nina, you know,

0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:26.799
<v Speaker 1>adding in what you were too modest or humble to

0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:29.719
<v Speaker 1>talk about. It's incredible. And I got to tell you John,

0:37:29.760 --> 0:37:32.000
<v Speaker 1>and you know it's true too that I think I

0:37:32.040 --> 0:37:34.960
<v Speaker 1>can speak for Nina and almost any of the other

0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:37.320
<v Speaker 1>six hundred of us who are here at the Innocent

0:37:37.440 --> 0:37:42.960
<v Speaker 1>Network conference who are part of the network right the activist,

0:37:42.960 --> 0:37:45.400
<v Speaker 1>the lawyers, the social workers, the people who are just

0:37:45.440 --> 0:37:48.400
<v Speaker 1>obsessed with this stuff like me. And the simple reason

0:37:48.400 --> 0:37:50.600
<v Speaker 1>why is because of people like you. When someone's made

0:37:50.640 --> 0:37:53.400
<v Speaker 1>aware of the quality of person that you are, and

0:37:53.400 --> 0:37:56.920
<v Speaker 1>that I would say the overwhelming majority of the people,

0:37:56.920 --> 0:38:00.759
<v Speaker 1>the men and women who've been exonerated what they're made

0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:03.319
<v Speaker 1>out of It's like it only inspires us to want

0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:06.960
<v Speaker 1>to do more. And that's why for anyone who's ever

0:38:07.040 --> 0:38:10.000
<v Speaker 1>asked me, you know why you keep doing this, it's

0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:13.359
<v Speaker 1>because of people like you. So you know what can

0:38:13.400 --> 0:38:15.200
<v Speaker 1>I say? You have all my respect.

0:38:14.920 --> 0:38:19.480
<v Speaker 4>And I appreciate where you're coming from. But to me,

0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:23.640
<v Speaker 4>people in nina shoes, people in your shoes, what you

0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:28.000
<v Speaker 4>do for the movement, you're my hero, and everybody who

0:38:28.239 --> 0:38:32.880
<v Speaker 4>supports this movement, dear my hero. Right because if it

0:38:32.960 --> 0:38:36.239
<v Speaker 4>wasn't for people like Nina and people like you, right,

0:38:36.760 --> 0:38:39.480
<v Speaker 4>I probably still be in that six y eight.

0:38:39.600 --> 0:38:41.359
<v Speaker 1>John, I just want to ask you one more question

0:38:41.520 --> 0:38:42.880
<v Speaker 1>and then I am going to get to the closing.

0:38:43.000 --> 0:38:49.560
<v Speaker 1>So I interviewed Gloria Kelly on on the podcast, and

0:38:49.640 --> 0:38:54.400
<v Speaker 1>she said she's an amazing, amazing woman, very powerful presence

0:38:54.920 --> 0:38:58.600
<v Speaker 1>and wrongfully convicted sort of seventeen and a half years.

0:38:58.719 --> 0:39:01.360
<v Speaker 1>I encourage people to listen to her episode of the podcast.

0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:04.799
<v Speaker 1>But she said something that I think is important to hear,

0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:07.000
<v Speaker 1>and I want to get your perspective on this. She said,

0:39:07.920 --> 0:39:10.520
<v Speaker 1>to anyone listening, if you don't think this can happen

0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:13.440
<v Speaker 1>to you, it can happen to you. Would you agree

0:39:13.480 --> 0:39:14.800
<v Speaker 1>with that most definitely.

0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:18.160
<v Speaker 4>And you could be walking down the street one day

0:39:18.520 --> 0:39:22.440
<v Speaker 4>just mining your business and get surrounded by cops and

0:39:23.160 --> 0:39:24.160
<v Speaker 4>before you know it.

0:39:24.080 --> 0:39:26.239
<v Speaker 3>You're thrown into the system and you.

0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:29.080
<v Speaker 4>Don't have a clue as to what's going on until

0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:30.680
<v Speaker 4>all of a sudden you're brought in front of a

0:39:30.760 --> 0:39:36.800
<v Speaker 4>judge and you're being charged with whatever, and you're totally

0:39:36.840 --> 0:39:39.680
<v Speaker 4>clueless as to what happened. And a lot of these

0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:44.160
<v Speaker 4>wrongful conviction cases, that's exactly what occurred. I mean, because

0:39:44.320 --> 0:39:47.560
<v Speaker 4>if so many things that this can't happen to them.

0:39:47.400 --> 0:39:48.279
<v Speaker 3>That's totally wrong.

0:39:48.400 --> 0:39:53.560
<v Speaker 4>Because being willfully convicted, it can happen to anybody, anybody,

0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:56.880
<v Speaker 4>And I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy to

0:39:56.960 --> 0:39:59.360
<v Speaker 4>have to go through something like this, because no matter

0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:02.799
<v Speaker 4>what you do, after you're exonerated, you carry it for

0:40:02.880 --> 0:40:03.800
<v Speaker 4>the rest of your life.

0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:06.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, you can't get back those years and all

0:40:06.160 --> 0:40:08.960
<v Speaker 1>the things that you missed, the birthdays, the family stuff,

0:40:09.040 --> 0:40:11.799
<v Speaker 1>just everything. I mean, nobody can give you those back.

0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:15.000
<v Speaker 1>If we could, we would. But that being said, it's

0:40:15.040 --> 0:40:17.759
<v Speaker 1>amazing to see you making the most out of it,

0:40:17.800 --> 0:40:21.960
<v Speaker 1>and you're in Florida, you're enjoying some sun and some

0:40:22.280 --> 0:40:25.600
<v Speaker 1>palm trees or whatever it is down there, and I'm

0:40:25.640 --> 0:40:29.000
<v Speaker 1>really glad that things are going your way. And now

0:40:29.160 --> 0:40:32.640
<v Speaker 1>comes my favorite part of the show, where I first

0:40:32.640 --> 0:40:36.800
<v Speaker 1>of all, thank both of you, Nina Morrison and John

0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:41.840
<v Speaker 1>Restivo for joining me sharing your thoughts on wrongful conviction.

0:40:41.960 --> 0:40:44.880
<v Speaker 1>So thank you both for being here. And now I

0:40:44.960 --> 0:40:50.480
<v Speaker 1>get to sit back and listen for final thoughts. And

0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:53.759
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna let Nina go first because it would be

0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:57.880
<v Speaker 1>appropriate for you to close the show, so you're batting

0:40:57.880 --> 0:41:01.520
<v Speaker 1>clean up, so to speak. So anyway, so Nina, well

0:41:01.560 --> 0:41:02.080
<v Speaker 1>I want.

0:41:01.880 --> 0:41:03.880
<v Speaker 6>To say, is you know your listeners have gotten a

0:41:03.920 --> 0:41:06.359
<v Speaker 6>flavor for who John is and what he's gone through.

0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:09.319
<v Speaker 6>But one of the things that's really special about John

0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:13.400
<v Speaker 6>is what he's done after he's been out and how

0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:14.000
<v Speaker 6>much he's done.

0:41:14.040 --> 0:41:14.520
<v Speaker 5>He's done a.

0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:17.680
<v Speaker 6>Lot to help get people registered to vote in Florida,

0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:21.120
<v Speaker 6>to feed the homeless, to make his community better, and

0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:24.880
<v Speaker 6>his personal journey is told in this beautiful, Beautiful Future

0:41:24.880 --> 0:41:27.399
<v Speaker 6>story in the New Yorker magazine by a writer named

0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:30.960
<v Speaker 6>Ariel Levy. And if people google John's name and the title,

0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:33.279
<v Speaker 6>I think is the Price of a Life, And it's

0:41:33.320 --> 0:41:36.239
<v Speaker 6>all about the deep pain and suffering that he went through.

0:41:36.280 --> 0:41:39.400
<v Speaker 6>If your listeners are interested in the human toll that

0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:43.239
<v Speaker 6>wrongful convictions take. Ariel told his story in a very

0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:46.560
<v Speaker 6>revealing and intimate way, and I hope folks will check

0:41:46.600 --> 0:41:46.960
<v Speaker 6>it out.

0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:47.520
<v Speaker 3>John.

0:41:47.840 --> 0:41:49.640
<v Speaker 4>I just take it one day at the time I

0:41:49.680 --> 0:41:52.840
<v Speaker 4>wake up in the morning, and I just say to myself,

0:41:53.440 --> 0:41:54.480
<v Speaker 4>no day in paradise.

0:41:54.880 --> 0:41:56.480
<v Speaker 3>I'm just glad to be free.

0:41:57.000 --> 0:42:00.640
<v Speaker 4>And if I can do something to help my community,

0:42:00.800 --> 0:42:03.920
<v Speaker 4>or if I feel or if I see something that

0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:08.560
<v Speaker 4>needs to be done, I try to help. And I

0:42:08.719 --> 0:42:13.400
<v Speaker 4>was involved in two thousand and eight in this huge

0:42:13.880 --> 0:42:18.520
<v Speaker 4>voter registration thing that we had going in Florida, and

0:42:20.400 --> 0:42:23.840
<v Speaker 4>we just got passed. We got an amendment passed where

0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:28.480
<v Speaker 4>felons are going to be allowed to vote. So now

0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:31.880
<v Speaker 4>we're going to have to start getting felons registered to

0:42:31.960 --> 0:42:37.040
<v Speaker 4>vote for our upcoming election. And when I'm asked, I

0:42:37.080 --> 0:42:39.759
<v Speaker 4>have a group of friends, and when I'm asked to help,

0:42:40.440 --> 0:42:43.279
<v Speaker 4>I'm more than happy to help. And I want to

0:42:43.280 --> 0:42:46.240
<v Speaker 4>thank you for.

0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:53.760
<v Speaker 1>Having us here, thank you for listening to wrongul Conviction.

0:42:54.040 --> 0:42:56.000
<v Speaker 1>You can listen to this and all the Lava for

0:42:56.080 --> 0:42:59.480
<v Speaker 1>Good podcasts one week early and ed free by subscribing

0:42:59.480 --> 0:43:02.520
<v Speaker 1>to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. I want

0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:05.560
<v Speaker 1>to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink,

0:43:05.680 --> 0:43:09.040
<v Speaker 1>as well as my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis,

0:43:09.160 --> 0:43:11.560
<v Speaker 1>and Jeff Kleiber. The music in this production was supplied

0:43:11.600 --> 0:43:14.719
<v Speaker 1>by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

0:43:14.719 --> 0:43:17.520
<v Speaker 1>to follow us across all social media platforms at Lava

0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:20.560
<v Speaker 1>for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow

0:43:20.600 --> 0:43:23.719
<v Speaker 1>me on Instagram at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is

0:43:23.760 --> 0:43:26.719
<v Speaker 1>the production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with

0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Signal Company Number One.

0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:30.560
<v Speaker 2>We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported

0:43:30.560 --> 0:43:33.400
<v Speaker 2>in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed

0:43:33.400 --> 0:43:35.759
<v Speaker 2>by the individuals featured in this show are their own

0:43:35.840 --> 0:43:39.080
<v Speaker 2>and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.