1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: I'm here today with a major announcement with my longtime 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: producer Connor Hall in a decade's old murder case that 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: we covered back in twenty twenty. 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, this was the wrongful conviction of three men, John 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 2: Restivo who we got to talk to, Dennis Halstead and 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 2: John Coogan, and they were all convicted of a nineteen 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: eighty four rape and murder and then they were cleared 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: by DNA testing and eventually released in two thousand and three, 9 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: while the actual perpetrator of this entire time has remained 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 2: free up until it appears at least yesterday, October fifteenth, 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, they arrested an alternate suspect, a now 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 2: sixty three year old man named Richard Billadou Richard Billideau. 13 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 1: And what's extraordinary about this case. First of all, it 14 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: feels close to home because it is close to home. 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: This happened in Long Island. This was a sixteen year 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: old girl named Teresa Fusco who had left her job 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: working the snow back bar at a Roler Rank in 18 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: lynn Brook, Long Island. Right. 19 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember going to birthday parties that skating rink. 20 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: It was called Hot Skates. Wow. 21 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, kid's birthday parties, and then this is going on. 22 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: Police said Teresa Fusco. He had been strangled, sexual assaulted, 23 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: and beaten, and then her body was found under leaves 24 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: and some shipping palace. 25 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: Now there was physical evidence taken in a rape kid, 26 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 2: and you know, I mean this is back in nineteen 27 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 2: eighty four. DNA testing hadn't even been used yet for 28 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: forensic evidence. So these guys had to wait in prison 29 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: while science progressed before being able to use the physical 30 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 2: evidence in this case to prove their innocence. And they 31 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: did that in nineteen ninety five, at which point they 32 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: didn't just free these guys. They argued that, okay, well 33 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: then that belongs to a fourth guy that you guys 34 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: have just been covering for. 35 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 3: You know, however many years. 36 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: So it took eight more years to set them free 37 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: in two thousand and three, and then over a decade 38 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: to get them compensation. John Restivo and Dennis Hollist they 39 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 2: got thirty six million dollars from Nasau County, and they 40 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: appealed that and appeal that and tried to refuse to 41 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: pay them it, and at some point or another, somebody 42 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 2: in that prosecutor's office decided, hey, maybe we should go 43 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 2: try to find the actual rapist and murderer. I'm not 44 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: sure if that happened with the election of the current 45 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 2: DA and Donnelly, or maybe it was just somebody else 46 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 2: in the office, but you know, somebody decided to track 47 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: down this alternate suspect and then get a DNA sample 48 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 2: from him without him knowing. 49 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: And by the way, kudos to the team that was 50 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,399 Speaker 1: involved in actually finally bringing this. I mean, if he's 51 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: the guy, which is sure seems that way. The DNA 52 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: shows that he is. This is good. 53 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: It's while what he says when he gets picked up 54 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: because they picked up this straw out of the garbage 55 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: that he had just used out of like a smoothie 56 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 2: or something like that, they pick it up, they swab 57 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 2: that and it's a match. They go to talk to 58 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 2: him and he says, well, I don't know anything about that. 59 00:02:58,400 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: Man. 60 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: A lot of people are getting away with murder back. 61 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: Then, Wow up at dollars to donuts that they're going 62 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: to find more horrible crimes attributed to this guy. 63 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 4: Yeah. 64 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I think you're right about that. And there's something 65 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: I hope that I'm not right about, which is I 66 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: hope all of a sudden, we don't see a statement 67 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 2: from this guy Bill Adeo saying, oh yeah, I'm the 68 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 2: fourth guy, and these three other guys were there with me. 69 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 2: Now take them back to prison, and you know, give 70 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: me a slap on the wrist for cooperating. Oh yeah, 71 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: and then get that thirty six million dollars back. You're 72 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: gonna have to forgive me for being jaded because of well, 73 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: you know what you're going to hear, how depraved. You know, 74 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: the original prosecutors in law enforcement were in this case 75 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: from John Restivo and his attorney Miina Morrison. 76 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: Nina Morrison, who was like the heart and soul of 77 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: the litigation team and strategy team at the end of 78 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: project for many years. She's now a better old judge 79 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: in this case. I know this case really really shook her. 80 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: This was her first case at the Innison's Project. 81 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: Right, that's incredible, you're absolutely right. 82 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 3: Well, without any further ado, here we go. 83 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: On December fifth, nineteen eighty four, the naked body of 84 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: a sixteen year old girl was found in a wooded 85 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: area of Linbrook, Long Island. The victim had been last 86 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: seen leaving her job at a local roller rink about 87 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: a month earlier. The medical examiner determined that the cause 88 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 1: of death was ligature strangulation and seamen found on her 89 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: Baginal swabs suggested that she had been raped. By March 90 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, authorities believed that this rape and murder 91 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: were connected to similar disappearance as an investigator started focusing 92 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: on Dennis Halstead, who was believed to have been associated 93 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: with another young woman who had disappeared. John Restivo had 94 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: been interviewed as part of this investigation and mentioned that 95 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: he was acquainted with John Cogan. After Cogd was given 96 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: three polygraphs, police asserted that he lied when denying involvement 97 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: with the disappearance of the sixteen year old victim. He 98 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: endured twelve hours of aggressive interrogation and eventually he cracked 99 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: and signed a confession that was handwritten by one of 100 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: the detectives. According to Kogo's false confession, the victim voluntarily 101 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: got into Restevo's van, where Cogd and Halsted stripped her 102 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: and Halsted raped her. Further into this coerce statement, he 103 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: said that when they arrived at a cemetery, Restevo also 104 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: raped her and coged, strangled her when she regained consciousness, 105 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: and became frantic with the false confession that a number 106 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: of hairs found in Restivo's band said to have matched 107 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 1: the victims. The three men were tried over the course 108 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty six. John Restivo spoke with us at 109 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Innocence Network conference to tell their horrifying story. Together, 110 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: they spent over half a century in prison for a 111 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: crime they did not come in. This is Wrongful Conviction 112 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: with Jason Plum. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can 113 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts 114 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: one week early and ad free subscribing to Lava for 115 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 116 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: I'm especially excited today because I've got a guest who 117 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: I've wanted to have on my podcast from long before 118 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: I even had a podcast. So ever since I read 119 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: your story in The New Yorker, John Restivo, I've been 120 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: sort of in awe of your story, your your case, 121 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: your everything. So I'm really I'm really happy you're here. 122 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, what a long, strange trip has. 123 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: Been and with you. Nina Morrison is a return guest 124 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: on the show today. Nina is the senior staff attorney 125 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: at the Innocence Project in New York. Welcome back, Thank. 126 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 5: You, Jason. It's always so nice to be here. 127 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: And just by way of background, John was convicted of 128 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: a rape murder along with two other innocent men and 129 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: sentenced to thirty three and a half years of life. 130 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: Could well have been executed if not for Governor Mario 131 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: Cuomo blocking repeatedly the death penalty in New York State. 132 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: But let's go back to it. All these crimes we 133 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: talk about are horrible. This one is particularly terrible, right. 134 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: This is the rape and murder of a young girl, 135 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: sixteen year old girl. And obviously everybody wants to see 136 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: those crimes solved, but they don't want to see it 137 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: solved this way. I mean, when we get the wrong 138 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: people locked up, whoever it is that did this was 139 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: free to commit other heinous crimes. But take us back 140 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: to the crime itself. And how did you first hear 141 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: about it? I mean you were at the time, you 142 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: were in the moving business. What were you doing? 143 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, we should have moving business with my brother, right, 144 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 4: And when young lady disappeared, we had seen articles in 145 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 4: the newspaper. There was missing persons fly is on different 146 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 4: store windows or telephone polls, so people in the community 147 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 4: knew that the young lady who's mission, which town was 148 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 4: this just was in Limbrook, New York, in Nasall County 149 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 4: all around. Yeah, And there was a couple of articles 150 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 4: in a newspaper. So approximately three weeks later, a body 151 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 4: is found and it's identified as being her body, and 152 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 4: now instead of it being a missing person's case, it's 153 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 4: a homicide. 154 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: And this case, it's got so many layers because you 155 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: have three guys, which makes it really especially tragic because 156 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: the other two guys that were convicted of the same 157 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: time that you were convicted of were just as innocent 158 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: as you were. But one of them confessed, right, and 159 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: we know how that goes as well. But every one 160 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: of those even inside of that false confession, there's a 161 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: lot of nuance to those situations. Do you want to 162 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: talk about that? Because I was a guy named Kogut, right. 163 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 4: Well, part of the problem with the interrogation process that 164 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 4: he was put through is that the police lied to him. 165 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 4: And I understand, okay, the police are allowed to lie 166 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 4: to you, but he took a lot to tachfist and 167 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 4: the police told. 168 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 3: Him he failed the light like the test. 169 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 4: And we had experts that actually viewed the you know, 170 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 4: the polycharts, and our experts said that, you know, he 171 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 4: didn't lie, right, that he was telling the truth. But 172 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 4: the detectives used that as a tool against him. You know, 173 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 4: while this guy is being you know, he's in a 174 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 4: small room with a couple of these let's call him 175 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 4: thugs because that's what they are. 176 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong. 177 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,239 Speaker 4: I'm not calling all police thugs, and I'm not saying that, 178 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 4: and that's yeah, so I'm not calling all police bad. 179 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 4: But so they held that over his head, saying that, okay, 180 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 4: you lied during the polygraph test, which was an actual lie. 181 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 3: I mean they were lying to him, right, And. 182 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 4: Their polygraph expert said, well, I don't really go by 183 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 4: the charts. 184 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 3: I go by the person's demeanor and. 185 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 5: Telegraphs or not. 186 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 6: You know, people can debate whether they have any utility 187 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 6: for determined if someone is or is not telling the truth. 188 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 6: But police have used them for decades as part of 189 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 6: what they the experts now call it guilt presumptive interrogation, 190 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 6: where they bring somebody in they've already decided based on 191 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 6: these subjective factors, like I get a feeling he's not 192 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 6: telling me the truth, or they think they have other 193 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 6: evidence the person did it, And once they decide that 194 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 6: the person is guilty, the interrogation is not a search 195 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 6: for the truth. 196 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 5: It's a search for a confession. 197 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 4: In the false confession, right, everything that the police had known, right, 198 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 4: every fact that they knew, right, was incorporated into this confession. 199 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 3: Right, the young. 200 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 4: Lady disappears in early November of nineteen eighty four. They're 201 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 4: interrogating COVID in early March of nineteen eighty five. And 202 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 4: according to the police, in this false confession, this fact's 203 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 4: coming out of call over of pocabook, color of sneakies. 204 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 4: I mean things that no normal person could ever remember. 205 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 4: You know, last week, what did you have for breakfast 206 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 4: last Monday? I mean, like every fact that was known, 207 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 4: even like the piece of jewelry that they recovered that 208 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 4: she had been wearing. Right, he supposedly remembers the type 209 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 4: of jewelry. And since it was all fictitious to begin with, right, 210 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 4: every fact that they knew was incorporated into the false 211 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 4: confession except one thing the police didn't know. 212 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 3: The colored blouse or. 213 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 4: Shirt that she was wearing on the night she disappeared, 214 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 4: and that's the only thing that wasn't incorporated into this 215 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 4: false confession. So, according to all of the experts, they 216 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 4: considered as a classic false confession because no normal person 217 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 4: would be able to actually remember all of these facts. 218 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 4: There were just too many facts incorporated into this confession 219 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 4: for it to be reliable. 220 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: Okay, now we know that COVID confessed, but how did 221 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: that lead to your case being brought to where it 222 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: went and ultimately you being convicted and almost executed. 223 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 4: The police they incorporate my name and done this his 224 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 4: name into the false confession because in a way, the 225 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,719 Speaker 4: police had us labeled as suspects. I don't believe that 226 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 4: we were labeled as targets. I personally believed that they 227 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 4: were going to frame us one way to the other. 228 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 4: Right when done, I wouldn't have a clue. I wouldn't 229 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 4: have a clue. After COVID confessed falsely confessed, my family 230 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 4: retained a private investigator. We're trying to figure out where 231 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 4: I was on a night this youngerally disappeared. We figured 232 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 4: out where I was through receipts because I had just 233 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 4: purchased the house, and that weekend that was standing the floors. 234 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 4: I was an out all night that evening. I was 235 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 4: on the phone with my girlfriend, who was pregnant. We 236 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 4: were putting poll your thane on the floor so shehes brightnt. 237 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 4: She couldn't be in an ause she was out of mother. 238 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 4: So we had phone right kids, we had receipts, so 239 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 4: we knew exactly where we were where I was right 240 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 4: and Dennis was with his kids in another town, and 241 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 4: Kobe was at a birthday party in another town. We 242 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 4: didn't even lay eyes on each other that whole weekend. 243 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 4: And beyond that, the three of us were never together 244 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 4: in that van as a threesome ever, And we all 245 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 4: had independent alibis. And by the time we got the trial, 246 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 4: they took my independent alibi witness because the guy that 247 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 4: was helping me, he was a friend at the time. 248 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 4: He was helping me sand the floors, right. He was 249 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 4: at the house all night. The cops picked him up 250 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 4: off the street. They bring him in for ten or 251 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 4: twelve hours, and they tell him that, well, if you 252 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 4: don't tell us what we want to hear, right, you're 253 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 4: gonna end up in jail with them so they've actually 254 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 4: flipped my independent alibi witness from my witness to their witness, 255 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 4: and he actually gave them testimony against me at trial, 256 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 4: and at the civil trial, during his testimony, the judge 257 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 4: actually stopped the proceedings, had the jury removed and told 258 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 4: him that you're on the borderline of being charged with 259 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 4: perjury here because he had changed his testimony so many times, right, 260 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 4: And when he testified at the criminal trial, he lied right, 261 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 4: but they wouldn't give us his original grand jury testimony. 262 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 4: So it was always my opinion that his testimony was 263 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 4: different from what he testified at the grand jury to 264 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 4: what he testified two years later at the criminal trial, 265 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 4: because during that timespan, the cops put so much pressure 266 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 4: on this dude and flipped them. 267 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he was in an impossible situation. It 268 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: doesn't excuse what he did. 269 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 3: No, you're right. 270 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 4: In a way, I felt bad for him because he 271 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 4: was stuck in the middle of this, right and he's 272 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 4: under this tremendous amount of pressure police, and he's being told, well, 273 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 4: if you don't tell us what we want to hear, 274 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 4: you're gonna end up in jail with him, and he 275 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 4: sees innocent people in jail, right, and he sees how 276 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 4: easy it was for the police to do that. 277 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: Exactly. He knows what they're capable of, because he already 278 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: knows you're innocent, and he knows what they're doing, So 279 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: there's no reason to not believe that they would do 280 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: the same rest right. 281 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 4: And then we had the other problem with the police 282 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 4: planting evidence in the van and the judge because it 283 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 4: was a bench trial, so the judge concluded that the 284 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 4: hiss that they intimated that were found in my van 285 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 4: were never in the van. 286 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: Right, And you know, let's talk about that because that 287 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: is even by the standards of some of the crazy 288 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: shit that we see in this line of work. That's 289 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: going even beyond some of the misconducts, you know, this 290 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: is so far. They were literally pulling hairs from the 291 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: corpse and then taking those hairs and putting them in 292 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: the van, Like who does the thing like that? Well? 293 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 5: Who does it? 294 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 6: Are police who are desperate to solve a crime that 295 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 6: has the community absolutely terrified and up in arms. So 296 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 6: what John talked about earlier about the flyers around town, 297 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 6: I mean this was the mid eighties, you know, bedroom community, 298 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 6: suburban Long Island, the young woman who was killed in 299 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 6: the case that John was falsely convicted, and her name 300 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 6: is Teresa Fusco, was actually one of three young women 301 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 6: that went missing around that time, and the other two 302 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 6: to this day, those crimes have never been solved, and 303 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 6: for all we know, it may have been the same 304 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 6: killer or killers in those cases. But by the time 305 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 6: Teresa disappeared, she was missing for what was it, John 306 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 6: three weeks? Three week, about three weeks before her body 307 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 6: was found. So the terror and the paranoia that they're 308 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 6: feeling in this town is only heightening, and the parents 309 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 6: and elected officials, the teachers are saying, solve this crime, 310 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 6: solve this crime. And after she was found naked, brutalized 311 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 6: in the woods, just a horrible way to go, you know. 312 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 6: The police spent months basically bringing in every working class 313 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 6: guy between the ages of eighteen in twenty nine in 314 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 6: town and working them over, trying to see if they 315 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 6: could find a weak spot until they get poor John 316 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,239 Speaker 6: Kogd who had had a really rough life grown up 317 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 6: in foster care. 318 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 5: Nobody to fight for him, and even he held. 319 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 6: Out for hours and hours until he finally confessed, you know, 320 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 6: and gave a false confession that as John said, was 321 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 6: a classic false confession, and that it had no information 322 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 6: that the police didn't already know, so he couldn't point 323 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 6: them to clothing or jewelry or fruits of the crime, 324 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 6: or anything about her that wasn't part of the police's knowledge. 325 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 6: But everything they did know almost too perfectly. But when 326 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 6: it came to the hair. As part of what was 327 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 6: wrong with this case when they decided they were going 328 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 6: to pin it on John and his two friends, is that. 329 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 5: They had no physical evidence. 330 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 6: There was no evidence against them, no DNA, no blood typing, 331 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 6: nothing of hers that was ever found with them, no 332 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 6: eyewitnesses as far as anybody knew at the time, who 333 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 6: had seen what vehicles she'd gotten into, and she was 334 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 6: leaving her job at a roller skating rink. And you know, 335 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 6: we don't say light that police frame people. I mean 336 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 6: a lot of times police will make bad mistakes, they 337 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 6: will cut corners, they will interview witnesses in a way 338 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 6: that's not ethical or permissible. But in this case, there 339 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 6: is actual scientific evidence that John. 340 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 5: And his co defendants got framed. 341 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 6: Namely, Detective Vulpi, the lead homicide detective, claimed that he 342 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 6: found several hairs when he finally got a search warrant 343 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 6: for John's van when he used for his moving jobs. 344 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,959 Speaker 6: He claimed that he found several hairs that were long hairs, 345 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 6: looked just like Teresa's and microscopically appeared to be the 346 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 6: same as Teresa's hairs. We later did DNA and confirmed 347 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 6: that they were in fact her hairs. So that would 348 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 6: be pretty bad evidence, and normally you'd think, well, that 349 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 6: makes John guilty. The problem was those hairs would have 350 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 6: had to be deposited in the van during this period 351 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 6: when John and his friends were alleged to have abducted. 352 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 5: Her for just a few minutes. 353 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 6: According to the confession, they had given her a ride 354 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 6: and then raped her, and she was in the van 355 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 6: for not longer, certainly no more than an hour, and 356 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 6: then she was missing for several weeks. 357 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 5: But the hairs came from a court. 358 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 6: They had this decomposition at the roots of the hairs 359 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 6: called post mortem root banding, which basically happens when hairs 360 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 6: are attached to a corpse that's decomposing. And so detective 361 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 6: Vaultpi takes these hairs and whether he planted them in 362 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 6: the van or just put them in an envelope marked 363 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 6: hairs from van that was back at the lab. We 364 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 6: don't know and doesn't really matter, but he lied under 365 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 6: oath and said that these hairs came from the van. 366 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 6: And it's physically impossible because she had been decomposing for 367 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 6: several weeks when these when these hairs were collected, they 368 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 6: were from her autopsy, not. 369 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: From the van. 370 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 4: I mean, these detectives actually created a fictitious scenario after 371 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 4: they actually watched what we think was the actual crime scene. 372 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 4: And unbeknownst to us, the night she disappeared, a car 373 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 4: within approximately a mile of which she was last seen 374 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 4: was stolen, and when this car was recovered approximately a 375 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 4: week later, they found a pair of blue striped g 376 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 4: means with one of the legs inside out in the back, 377 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 4: but stuff underneath the seat, and on a missing persons 378 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 4: report when she was last seen, that's what she was wearing, 379 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 4: blue stripe jeans. 380 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 3: So the homicide cops. 381 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 4: Grabbed this car right, which was already cleaned by the owner, 382 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 4: and the blue striped jeans were thrown out by. 383 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 3: The Limberth Police department. 384 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 4: So there was police reports regarding the stolen car and 385 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 4: the blue striped jeans right, and then there was a 386 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 4: piece of rope missing from the car. And according to them, right, 387 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 4: there was a piece of rope similar used as what 388 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 4: would you say, the murder weapon, right, and this was 389 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 4: missing from the car. When they brought the owner back 390 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 4: to the area where the car was recovered, they found 391 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 4: the piece of rope. 392 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 3: But they took a picture of the piece of rope. 393 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 4: And one would think that given the significance of that, 394 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 4: this piece of rope would be taken into evidence and vouched, 395 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 4: and the police say it never was. 396 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 3: So this is information that. 397 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 4: Should have been turned over to the defense, and it 398 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 4: never was. And we never found out about this information 399 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 4: till we were in the civil litigation stage twenty something 400 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 4: years later. 401 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 3: Correct, I was. 402 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 6: John's innocence project lawyer. We didn't know about this information. 403 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: You know. 404 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 6: A lot of times, as you know and a lot 405 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 6: of your guests have talked about there's evidence pointing to 406 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 6: someone's innocence, and you know, certainly in this case, this 407 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 6: is evidence about where the crime occurred and what type 408 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 6: of vehicle was used, which is a huge objective lead 409 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 6: that's different than the entire case that was against John 410 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 6: and his co defendants, but that is evidence. Often we 411 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 6: learn about that when we're in post conviction, meaning the 412 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 6: person's been convicted and we're litigating their appeals and we're 413 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 6: trying to exonerate them. In John's case, as I'll tell you, 414 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 6: we cleared him with DNA and other evidence that we gathered, 415 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 6: but we didn't even know about this other evidence the 416 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 6: police had of his innocence until after he was exonerated. 417 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 6: It only came out when he had lawyers representing him 418 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 6: in his lawsuit against the police department in the county 419 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 6: that this all came to light. 420 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 5: So it's a really. 421 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 6: Stunning fact that you can have evidence of innocence that's hidden, 422 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 6: possibly even from the DA's because he was in the 423 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,719 Speaker 6: police file and only come out after someone's exonerated. And 424 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 6: so his case is a DNA exoneration case, But as 425 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 6: with so many, there's other evidence that could have cleared 426 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 6: him even before he went to trial. 427 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: As the son of a police officer, this must have 428 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: been totally surreal to you. Bright And was your dad 429 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: around Was he alive at this time? 430 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 4: My father passed away in January of eighty four, so 431 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 4: he wasn't around. But my father said something to me 432 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 4: at one time while he was on the job. 433 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 3: If you ever have a problem with a top, call oil. 434 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 4: And when the police brought me in and interrogated me 435 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 4: for twenty plus hours. 436 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 3: Once I was released, I immediately called a. 437 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: W why did you call oil? At first, they. 438 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 4: Wouldn't let me leave, They took my clock keys. I mean, 439 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 4: they wuldn't let me call the oier. You know I 440 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 4: was there. I mean, they weren't letting me go anywhere. 441 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 4: And finally they let me go. And after twenty hours, 442 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 4: I was so out of it. They wouldn't even let 443 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 4: me drive home. They drove me home and drove my call. 444 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: There's so many things wrong with this that I'm just like. 445 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 3: No, I'm just glad it's over it. But what the 446 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 3: cops did to me they can do to whoever they please. 447 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 3: I mean they could. 448 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 4: They could pick somebody out of a group and make 449 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 4: them a target and then they fabricate a case around them. 450 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 3: And that's exactly what they did to us. 451 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 4: Because from day one I requested DNA testing, and back 452 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 4: in the eighties mid eighties, there was no DNA testing, 453 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 4: And back in ninety three, ninety four, ninety five, we 454 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 4: had three different DNA tests done. One was inclusive to 455 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 4: two other ones excluded us, and back in ninety five, 456 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 4: I thought we were going to get cut loose. I 457 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 4: thought that was going to be the end of the gospel. 458 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 3: That wasn't the case. 459 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 6: The judge should have been one of the first DNA 460 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 6: namies in the country because he was going in pro 461 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 6: se and he had a lawyer who was helping him 462 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 6: out for some of that time, you know, early on, 463 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 6: and he's incredibly smart, and he was researching and filing 464 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 6: his own emotions. He had a DNA test from sperm 465 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 6: from a sixteen year old girl who was a virgin 466 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 6: that didn't come back to him or Dennis or John Cogit, 467 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 6: and the DAS said, eh, doesn't matter. Could have been 468 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 6: a fourth guy, right, fourth guy, there's a third guy. 469 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 5: There's a second guy. There was one guy. It was 470 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 5: his sperm and it wasn't any of these guys. 471 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 6: And he goes to court and the judges back then 472 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 6: weren't as educated as they are now about DNA and 473 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 6: what it shows, and you know, he had different lawyers 474 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 6: and they said, sorry, not giving you a new trial. 475 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 6: And so there he was, you know, in the mid nineties, 476 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 6: starting a scare one again. 477 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: I think probably everyone at home is experiencing the same 478 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: or in your car, or you're listening the same thing 479 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: that I'm experiencing, which is that that sounds like a 480 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: misprint or a misstatement that can't really be true. 481 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 4: The prosecutor is actually lying in their papers about the 482 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 4: reliability of the tests. They insinuated that the test results 483 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 4: were not reliable, which is ludicrous because there's two independent 484 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 4: tests done by two independent labs and they identify the 485 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 4: same exact DNA profile. So if one lab made a mistake, 486 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 4: how could the other lab, independent lab make the same 487 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 4: mistake and identify the exact same DNA profile. So when 488 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 4: they argued in their papers that the tests weren't reliable, 489 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 4: I mean, that was totally ludicrous, and the judge adopted 490 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 4: old it is insanity. 491 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 6: And then, if I remember correctly, after they realized they 492 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 6: weren't getting anywhere for a while, the judge was getting 493 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 6: skeptical of the reliability argument. Then they said, well, the 494 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 6: only thing that was tested for this last round was 495 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 6: off of a vaginal slide, which is a glass slide 496 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 6: that the medical examiner or autopsy makes from the cotton 497 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 6: swab that was actually had most of the sperm and 498 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 6: the semen on it, and it was just the one. 499 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 5: Part of the slide. 500 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 6: So maybe these three guys who we convicted, maybe their 501 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 6: DNA was on the rest of the slide or on 502 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 6: the swabs, and we just don't have enough material. 503 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 5: So you had to believe two things. 504 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 6: One that the test was missing all of their DNA, 505 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 6: but also that they had some crime partner. This mystery 506 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 6: John Doe, who was the fourth guy whose name didn't 507 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 6: come up in the confession, didn't come up from any 508 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 6: of the informants, didn't come up from any of the witnesses, 509 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 6: you know who everybody had been covering up. 510 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 5: For this last ten years, which was absurd, but the 511 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 5: courts bought it. 512 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 6: And so then they basically gave John a challenge, which 513 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 6: was prove us wrong. 514 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 5: Prove to us that your DNA is not really there. 515 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 3: And then we did that right. 516 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 4: In two thousand and one, there was a small portion 517 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 4: of sample left and they retested it using new methodology 518 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 4: where it would be able to run that result through 519 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 4: the federal and state databases, you know, through codis right, 520 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 4: and again when they tested that, it comes back matching 521 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 4: the same DNA profile that came back in the nineties. 522 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: Amazing. 523 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, And they ran it through Codis hoping that they 524 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 4: would get a hit, right, And since they didn't get 525 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 4: a hit, they're still maintaining that it's not reliable. Then 526 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 4: in two thousand and two I met Nina Morrison and 527 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 4: IP took on more involvement in the case. Right, and 528 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 4: he got U all independent lawyers, right, They got lawyers 529 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 4: for dentists, they got law for John And in early 530 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 4: two thousand and three, Nina and a couple of little 531 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 4: lawyers went to inventory evidence that the police had and 532 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 4: lo and Behold. 533 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 5: For photos and maps. 534 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 6: We were looking for some old photos related to another 535 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 6: part of our investigation, and they wouldn't just send us 536 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 6: the photos, so we said, fine, can we come looks 537 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 6: at the boxes? 538 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 5: So we were out there with. 539 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 6: An Assistantda, who was new to the office, relatively new, 540 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 6: and she said, yeah, let's just go look for the boxes. 541 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 3: And we'll behold. 542 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 4: They found a plastic envelope with a glass tube in 543 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 4: it and a swab in it, and it has the 544 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 4: case number and Teresa Fusko's name on it and it's 545 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 4: vouched by Volpi. 546 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 3: And after they. 547 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 4: Insinuated all the MIAs that there's no samples left to 548 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 4: be tested. It was right there in the box, you know, 549 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 4: in the DA's officer in the police headed quotas wherever 550 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 4: they were, and Nina scene is and the DA scene is, 551 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 4: and then now they had to collaborate. Okay, now where 552 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 4: are we going to send us to have it tested? 553 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 4: And they sent it out to have it tested. And 554 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 4: this is his sample that was never touched, so it's 555 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 4: in pristine condition. 556 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 6: If anybody had you know, raped her, that DNA is 557 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 6: going to be on there. So they had said for years, 558 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 6: well the other guys, you know, John and his co defendants, 559 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 6: their DNA was there. We just burned all the samples, 560 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 6: so we can't protest it now. And then suddenly we 561 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 6: had this big intact swab that everybody said was gone 562 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 6: for fifteen years that was finally available, and not surprising 563 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 6: to any of us, we tested it and guess what, 564 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 6: it's the same guy whose profile has been coming up 565 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 6: again and again, but this time because it was such 566 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 6: a big sample, the DA's office finally, you know, that, 567 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 6: plus a whole lot of other evidence we gathered, we 568 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 6: went out and made a presentation to them, a whole 569 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 6: coalition of people that really did take a village. It 570 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 6: was my very first innisance project case. I was a 571 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 6: young lawyer and very motivated, shall we say, and a 572 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 6: whole bunch of us enturing ministries the Unison's project to 573 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 6: Delmernard and then my old law schoolassmate Terry Maroney who 574 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 6: was a lawyer at a big firm. We all did 575 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 6: this big presentation with Barrysheck together and got them to 576 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 6: finally agree. They actually came in and agreed we didn't 577 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 6: have to go to court. They agreed to throughout their convictions. 578 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: You had a kind of a bright future at the time, right, 579 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: you had a pregnant girlfriend. Right, you had a good job. Right, 580 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: you had a career that was growing. And all of 581 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: a sudden you're accused and ultimately convicted of the worst 582 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: crime that anyone could be convicted of, right, I think, 583 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: which is the rape and murder of an underage person, 584 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: child and a teenager or whatever. How did you deal 585 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: with this? And then you had to go through this 586 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: eighteen years in the maximum security prisons. I mean, can 587 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: you kick us through that. 588 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 4: In the beginning and turn my life upside down and 589 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 4: turned my family's life upside down. But that being said, 590 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 4: my family always supported me. Right, my original trial lawyer 591 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 4: always supported me, and everybody. 592 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 3: Always believes in my innocence. 593 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 4: And I had the one thing going for me that 594 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 4: I knew that not only was I innocent, that I 595 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 4: was framed because I watched the evidence come out during 596 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 4: the course of the trial. Right, so I knew that 597 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 4: I was framed. Now it was up to me to 598 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 4: prove all it is. So I ended up in the penitentiary, 599 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 4: and I started going to the law library and I 600 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 4: started teaching myself how to use the books. I taught 601 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 4: myself how to become a legal writer. I don't want 602 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 4: to say a legal scholar, but I became a legal writer. 603 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 4: And I started writing and writing, and I started writing 604 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 4: letters to all kinds of organizations or individuals seeking help. 605 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 3: And I wrote. 606 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 4: Censuring ministries in nineteen eighty seven and started corresponding with them. 607 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 4: And then I started corresponding with the Innostance Project. 608 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 3: And you know, there. 609 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 4: Was a lot of setbacks, you know, like because originally 610 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 4: when we exprat the DNA testing, the dis Returnings Office 611 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 4: refused to do it. 612 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 3: This is no way we're not going to do that. 613 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 4: And this was in the late eighties because DNA was 614 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 4: first used in a criminal case. I think it was 615 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty eight or nineteen eighty nine, something like that, 616 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 4: and I think it was an Oldding County case. And 617 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 4: so I wrote my lawyer, I mean, if they're going 618 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 4: to use this to convict somebody, why can't we use 619 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 4: this to exonerate us? 620 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 3: Right? And I got letters. 621 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 4: Signed by John by Dennis Agreen to have this DNA 622 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 4: test done in my lawyer correct, right, because I'm not 623 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 4: doing this just for me. I mean, this is a 624 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 4: frame job, it's not like So we all agree, and 625 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 4: my lawyer filed the motion the judge, and then my 626 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 4: lawyer went on his own writing campaign to the DA, 627 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 4: and finally, on the eve of when New York State 628 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 4: legislature was getting ready to sign the post conviction Statute 629 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 4: for forty to allow DNA testing, the prosecutors or the 630 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 4: DA's office finally agreed to do the DNA testing. And 631 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 4: that's why DNA testing occurred in ninety three, ninety four, five, 632 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 4: or otherwise, if that legislation wasn't going to be on 633 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 4: the books, they would probably continue to refuse it, even 634 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 4: though you know, people at that point were being exonerated 635 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 4: because of the results of the DNA tests. These people 636 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 4: fought tooth and nail against this DNA test, and then 637 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 4: when we finally got the DNA test are going, they 638 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 4: just finds it unreliable, like we mentioned before. But you know, 639 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 4: I always had this hope, right and then you know, 640 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 4: things started falling together with more people getting involved, and 641 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 4: the more people that got involved and more confident I 642 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 4: felt I was going to one day be vindicated. 643 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: It seems like it would have been really easy for 644 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: you to either give up or get consumed by anger, 645 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: because this was not a situation where it was a mistake. 646 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: This was a situation where you were deliberately prosecuted and 647 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: persecuted by people who did you incredible harm and also 648 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 1: deny justice to the family who must have been fucking devastated. 649 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: I mean, like, as a father, I can't imagine, you 650 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: know what they went through, and then there's no justice 651 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: for them either. So is there a secret that you 652 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: could share that allowed you to sort of find this 653 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: extra gear and instead of banging your head against the 654 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: wall or doing whatever, you channeled this. 655 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 4: It seems like this is going to sound strange, but 656 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 4: I still use this line today. 657 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 3: It could be worse right. 658 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 4: And I was facing a level of adversity that the 659 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 4: average person could never understand. While I was inside, I 660 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 4: read a lot, but I didn't read, you know, novels. 661 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 4: I read a lot of nonfiction. I read a lot 662 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 4: about World War Two. I read a lot about POWs. 663 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 4: So I'm putting in my brain like, okay, me doing 664 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 4: this life sentence for somebody didn't do. 665 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 3: How does that compare to an eighteen. 666 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 4: Year old kid that is pushed onto the beach in 667 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 4: Normandy and you know it lives for five minutes and 668 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 4: he's gone, right, or a pow in the Philippines that 669 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 4: is being tortured every day. So I'm putting my adversity 670 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 4: in kind of perspective of, you know, adversity that other 671 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 4: people in worse situations that I was in. 672 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 3: Right, at least I was getting, you know, three meals 673 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 3: a day. 674 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 4: I wasn't being physically tortured, nobody was pulling my fingernails out. 675 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 4: I put it all in perspective of, you know, a 676 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 4: peow in the Philippines or a peow in Vietnam, and 677 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 4: and I got it in my brain, well, at the end. 678 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 3: Of the day, I don't belong here. But it could 679 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:03,720 Speaker 3: be worse. 680 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 6: John's too modest to talk about this, but I'm going 681 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 6: to say he also spent a lot of time when 682 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 6: he was in prison trying to make it a less 683 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 6: horrible place for other people, and also helping people on 684 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 6: the outside. So among the many things he did, like 685 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 6: when I first talked to his prison counselor, she just 686 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 6: blew out my phone with oh my god, John, He's 687 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 6: just incredible. 688 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 5: I want him to go home, but what are we 689 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 5: going to do without him? 690 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 6: He was a HIV AIDS counselor for other inmates, either 691 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 6: on how to avoid contracting the disease or helping him 692 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,720 Speaker 6: deal with their diagnoses, even though he was a street 693 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 6: man who was HIV negative at a time in the 694 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 6: eighties and nineties when people were scared to talk about AIDS, 695 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 6: much less work directly with people who were affected. He 696 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 6: worked with mentally ill and mad's, the guys that everybody 697 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 6: thought was crazy and were prized at the prison, and 698 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 6: he was just trying to help them get the medication 699 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 6: they needed and the support they needed. And then people 700 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 6: on the outside, I know who John was like their 701 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 6: phone buddy, you know, family friends and young nieces and 702 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 6: nephews who he would call once a week and like 703 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 6: talk them through their problems in school, their issues with 704 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 6: their families. You know, all the while he's facing the 705 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 6: most unimaginable thing any of us think we could go through. 706 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 6: And that's just a testament to who he is and how. 707 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 5: Strong he is. 708 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,280 Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, because that is an awesome 709 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: thing to hear from me. I'm sure many other people 710 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: who are going through whatever they're going through to hear 711 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 1: your perspective on that. And here then, Nina, you know, 712 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: adding in what you were too modest or humble to 713 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: talk about. It's incredible. And I got to tell you John, 714 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: and you know it's true too that I think I 715 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: can speak for Nina and almost any of the other 716 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 1: six hundred of us who are here at the Innocent 717 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: Network conference who are part of the network right the activist, 718 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: the lawyers, the social workers, the people who are just 719 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: obsessed with this stuff like me. And the simple reason 720 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: why is because of people like you. When someone's made 721 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: aware of the quality of person that you are, and 722 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: that I would say the overwhelming majority of the people, 723 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: the men and women who've been exonerated what they're made 724 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: out of It's like it only inspires us to want 725 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: to do more. And that's why for anyone who's ever 726 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: asked me, you know why you keep doing this, it's 727 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 1: because of people like you. So you know what can 728 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: I say? You have all my respect. 729 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 4: And I appreciate where you're coming from. But to me, 730 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 4: people in nina shoes, people in your shoes, what you 731 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 4: do for the movement, you're my hero, and everybody who 732 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 4: supports this movement, dear my hero. Right because if it 733 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 4: wasn't for people like Nina and people like you, right, 734 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 4: I probably still be in that six y eight. 735 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 1: John, I just want to ask you one more question 736 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: and then I am going to get to the closing. 737 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: So I interviewed Gloria Kelly on on the podcast, and 738 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: she said she's an amazing, amazing woman, very powerful presence 739 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: and wrongfully convicted sort of seventeen and a half years. 740 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: I encourage people to listen to her episode of the podcast. 741 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: But she said something that I think is important to hear, 742 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: and I want to get your perspective on this. She said, 743 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: to anyone listening, if you don't think this can happen 744 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: to you, it can happen to you. Would you agree 745 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 1: with that most definitely. 746 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 4: And you could be walking down the street one day 747 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 4: just mining your business and get surrounded by cops and 748 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 4: before you know it. 749 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 3: You're thrown into the system and you. 750 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 4: Don't have a clue as to what's going on until 751 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 4: all of a sudden you're brought in front of a 752 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 4: judge and you're being charged with whatever, and you're totally 753 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 4: clueless as to what happened. And a lot of these 754 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 4: wrongful conviction cases, that's exactly what occurred. I mean, because 755 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 4: if so many things that this can't happen to them. 756 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 3: That's totally wrong. 757 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 4: Because being willfully convicted, it can happen to anybody, anybody, 758 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 4: And I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy to 759 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 4: have to go through something like this, because no matter 760 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,799 Speaker 4: what you do, after you're exonerated, you carry it for 761 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:03,800 Speaker 4: the rest of your life. 762 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you can't get back those years and all 763 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: the things that you missed, the birthdays, the family stuff, 764 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 1: just everything. I mean, nobody can give you those back. 765 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: If we could, we would. But that being said, it's 766 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: amazing to see you making the most out of it, 767 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: and you're in Florida, you're enjoying some sun and some 768 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: palm trees or whatever it is down there, and I'm 769 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: really glad that things are going your way. And now 770 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: comes my favorite part of the show, where I first 771 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: of all, thank both of you, Nina Morrison and John 772 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: Restivo for joining me sharing your thoughts on wrongful conviction. 773 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,880 Speaker 1: So thank you both for being here. And now I 774 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: get to sit back and listen for final thoughts. And 775 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: I'm gonna let Nina go first because it would be 776 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 1: appropriate for you to close the show, so you're batting 777 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: clean up, so to speak. So anyway, so Nina, well 778 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: I want. 779 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 6: To say, is you know your listeners have gotten a 780 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 6: flavor for who John is and what he's gone through. 781 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 6: But one of the things that's really special about John 782 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 6: is what he's done after he's been out and how 783 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 6: much he's done. 784 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 5: He's done a. 785 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 6: Lot to help get people registered to vote in Florida, 786 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 6: to feed the homeless, to make his community better, and 787 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 6: his personal journey is told in this beautiful, Beautiful Future 788 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,399 Speaker 6: story in the New Yorker magazine by a writer named 789 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 6: Ariel Levy. And if people google John's name and the title, 790 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 6: I think is the Price of a Life, And it's 791 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 6: all about the deep pain and suffering that he went through. 792 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 6: If your listeners are interested in the human toll that 793 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 6: wrongful convictions take. Ariel told his story in a very 794 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 6: revealing and intimate way, and I hope folks will check 795 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 6: it out. 796 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 3: John. 797 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 4: I just take it one day at the time I 798 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 4: wake up in the morning, and I just say to myself, 799 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 4: no day in paradise. 800 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 3: I'm just glad to be free. 801 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 4: And if I can do something to help my community, 802 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 4: or if I feel or if I see something that 803 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 4: needs to be done, I try to help. And I 804 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 4: was involved in two thousand and eight in this huge 805 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 4: voter registration thing that we had going in Florida, and 806 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 4: we just got passed. We got an amendment passed where 807 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 4: felons are going to be allowed to vote. So now 808 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 4: we're going to have to start getting felons registered to 809 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 4: vote for our upcoming election. And when I'm asked, I 810 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 4: have a group of friends, and when I'm asked to help, 811 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 4: I'm more than happy to help. And I want to 812 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,240 Speaker 4: thank you for. 813 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:53,760 Speaker 1: Having us here, thank you for listening to wrongul Conviction. 814 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for 815 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ed free by subscribing 816 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. I want 817 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, 818 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: as well as my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, 819 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 1: and Jeff Kleiber. The music in this production was supplied 820 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure 821 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: to follow us across all social media platforms at Lava 822 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow 823 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 1: me on Instagram at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is 824 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,719 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with 825 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number One. 826 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 2: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported 827 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 2: in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed 828 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 2: by the individuals featured in this show are their own 829 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 2: and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.