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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and White House Staff Secretary Will Sharp

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Speaker 1: was caught on a hot mic joking our brand is crisis.

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Speaker 1: We have such a great show for you today. The

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Speaker 1: New Republic's own Meredith Shiner talks to us about pushing

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Speaker 1: back against Trump's increasingly disturbing rule. Then we'll talk to

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Speaker 1: the Bulwarks own Will Sommer about the chaos and maga

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Speaker 1: world after the killing of Charlie Kirk. But first we

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Speaker 1: have the stories the media is missing Smillie.

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Speaker 2: We have not spoken in what feels like ten million

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Speaker 2: years since Jimmy Kimmel was suspended for making very benign jokes,

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Speaker 2: and there's a lot of fall out here, and the

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Speaker 2: Republicans have killed an attempt to subpoena the FCC chair

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Speaker 2: to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: So here's what happens.

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Speaker 1: FCC chair goes on Benny Johnson's podcast, says we can

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Speaker 1: do this the hard way or the easy way, complaining

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Speaker 1: Aboutjimmy Kimmel. Disney pulls Jimmy Kimmel partially because next star

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Speaker 1: who needs to have a merger approved by the Trump administration,

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Speaker 1: decides that it's not worth getting the Trump administration mad.

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Speaker 1: This is censorship, but it's corporate censorship. It's not state

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Speaker 1: run censorship, although the state is basically creating a world

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Speaker 1: where these corporations are censoring themselves in order to get by.

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Speaker 1: I think that what is important with this Kimmel canceling

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Speaker 1: is just like the Trump administration's attacks on universities weren't

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Speaker 1: actually about anti Semitism.

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Speaker 3: They were about.

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Speaker 1: Stifling free speech and free expression. Just like the way

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Speaker 1: that Trump used the federal guard in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't actually about crime. It was about rolling in federal

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Speaker 1: troops to scare legislators. Just like those things, this is

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Speaker 1: not about Jimmy Kiml. This is about speech the President

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Speaker 1: of the United States doesn't like and he wants to

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Speaker 1: chill it. And that's what we're looking at here. So

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Speaker 1: this is so much like the House on an American

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Speaker 1: activities that put my grandfather in jail. It's kind of amazing.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty chilling, by the way, I think it's important.

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Speaker 1: Here we have a ranking member, Robert Garcia. You see

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Speaker 1: the Democrats who are pushing back. You see the Democrats

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Speaker 1: who are making noise, and you see the Democrats who

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Speaker 1: are not right. So Ranking Member Robert Garcia, he's the

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Speaker 1: ranking on oversight. He said that he and Committee Chair

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Speaker 1: James Comer have been talking during the hearing and are

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Speaker 1: going to work together to bring mister Carr in front

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Speaker 1: of oversight.

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Speaker 3: If you're a.

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Speaker 1: Republican and Tucker Carlson talked about this this week, I

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Speaker 1: am now agreeing with Tucker Carlson because that's where we

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Speaker 1: are in this moment. Tucker Carlson talked about it this week,

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Speaker 1: But basically, this is a road that no one wants

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Speaker 1: to go down. We have an amendment, it's called the

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Speaker 1: First Amendment, and what's happening here is that corporations are

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Speaker 1: giving up their first Amendment right in the hopes of

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Speaker 1: regulatory favor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's pretty crazy when you're seeing Tucker

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Speaker 2: Carlson beyond the same side as you and I, And

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Speaker 2: it's interesting how what we're seeing also, though, is that

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Speaker 2: some of these comedians that everybody's like, oh, they're going

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Speaker 2: to come to Jimmy Kimmel's defenses, they're twisting themselves in

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Speaker 2: knots to try to say that what Trump has done

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Speaker 2: is okay, and that this is like FAFO or something.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but a lot of them are not, or at

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Speaker 1: least the smart ones know that when you go down

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Speaker 1: this road soon you have to just only toe the

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Speaker 1: line of the regime. And this is how we get

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Speaker 1: to Russia, right, this is how we get to North Korea.

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Speaker 1: I think it's worth realizing that these corporations did this

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Speaker 1: because they saw Paramount do it, because they saw billionaires

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Speaker 1: at the inauguration. Every single caving leads to more caving,

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Speaker 1: creates a permissions sure, Obeying in advance leads to Morabeying

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Speaker 1: in advance leads to moro obeying in advance. By the way,

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Speaker 1: the obey and advance guy he lives in Canada now,

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Speaker 1: so let's not be too hot on him. But I

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Speaker 1: think it is important to realize, like, we got here

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Speaker 1: because people refuse to resist because the stuff that worked

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen they stopped doing. So there's a way

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Speaker 1: to get out of this and it looks a lot

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Speaker 1: like twenty sixteen. By the way, Also important Trump doesn't

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Speaker 1: take this Kimmel's situation as a win and keep going. Instead,

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Speaker 1: he says, what what does he say? He says he

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Speaker 1: wants more more scalps. When asked about Kimmel's suspension for

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Speaker 1: making remarks about the potential political ideology. You know what

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Speaker 1: he says, He says, quote, I read someplace that networks

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Speaker 1: ninety seven percent against me again, ninety seven percent negative,

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Speaker 1: and yet I won and easily won all seven swing

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Speaker 1: states popular vote one everything Trump said. They're ninety seven

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Speaker 1: percent against they get me only bad press. I mean

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Speaker 1: they're getting a license. I would think maybe their licenses

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Speaker 1: should be taken away. So welcome to what happens when

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Speaker 1: you go along to get along.

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Speaker 2: So the House has passed the GOP funding bill two

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventeen votes to two hundred and twelve, and

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Speaker 2: now it goes to the Senate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is so embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: I'm so angry at Democrats for what's happening right now.

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Speaker 2: Bolly, I think you just named Mike Johnson's biography. This

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Speaker 2: is so embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: It's also hit Keem Jeffrey's biography because like now it's

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Speaker 1: gone through the House, it now ends up in the

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Speaker 1: Senate where Chuck Schumer.

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Speaker 3: Look, here's the thing. Democrats don't have any power. I

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Speaker 3: get it.

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Speaker 1: I understand, but they could do things like they could say,

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Speaker 1: you know, we want to be able to subpoena Brendan cart.

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Speaker 1: They could ask for small things that would show at

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Speaker 1: least that they have something. So soon Obamacare subsidies are

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Speaker 1: going to go way, way up because Republicans didn't want

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Speaker 1: to fund them, So they're going to go up like

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Speaker 1: twenty percent. This is something that the Republicans have done

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Speaker 1: to themselves and to the American people more broadly, Democrats

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Speaker 1: want Republicans to make it so these subsidies don't go up.

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Speaker 1: But you know what, and again this is something we

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Speaker 1: saw in twenty sixteen. It may be that voters need

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Speaker 1: to see what they voted for, and this idea that

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Speaker 1: Democrats should save voters from things they voted for. They

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Speaker 1: voted for their Obamacare premiums to go up. Maybe they

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Speaker 1: didn't know it, but that's what they voted for. So

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Speaker 1: the idea that Democrats are now going to go in there,

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Speaker 1: and by the way, Republicans don't want to do it.

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Speaker 1: They want those Obamacare premiums to go up, and those

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Speaker 1: premiums may in fact, really really hurt Republicans in the midterms.

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Speaker 1: So why are Democrats trying to get something that they

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Speaker 1: won't get credit for. I just don't get it, Like

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Speaker 1: they are so focused on things that are politically stupid

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Speaker 1: for them that they forget that they do actually have

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Speaker 1: to win elections.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of winning elections, a lot of people seem to

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Speaker 2: be concerned that the messaging part of the Democratic Party

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Speaker 2: is now going to be greatly diminished since a lot

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Speaker 2: of it lives on TikTok, which has been bought by

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Speaker 2: a conglomerate of Trump supporters.

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Speaker 3: Including has it gone through.

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Speaker 2: The reporting is that it's zeroing in on a deal

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Speaker 2: that would sell eighty percent of TikTok's US assets to

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Speaker 2: add Rees and Horwitz, Oracle and silver Lake.

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Speaker 3: All Trump supporters.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and there is already reports on drop site that

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Speaker 2: they are pulling left wing creators, specifically that talk about Palestine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, these guys are really pro Israel. They love Israel.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is what happens when you don't have freedom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I do think this is a recipe

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Speaker 2: for a lot of people abandoning the platform very fast.

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Speaker 1: Well, see people have stayed on Twitter, Yeah, even though

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Speaker 1: it's bad.

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Speaker 2: Twitter is a disturbing, disturbing example of this but.

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Speaker 1: There certainly are places like Blue Sky and Terrible.

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Speaker 3: Threads, so maybe it's into being okay.

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Speaker 1: Meredith Shiner is a contributing editor at The New Republic.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Baspolitex, Meredith, Bye, Mollie, thank you again for

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Speaker 1: having me back. Oh I'm so happy to have you back.

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Speaker 1: And there's so much stuff to talk about. I would

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Speaker 1: love to talk from it because I feel like a

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Speaker 1: lot of people this podcast found they are like us,

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Speaker 1: Like they're concerned about American democracy. You know, we're moms,

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Speaker 1: we have kids. We'd like to live in a democratic system.

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Speaker 1: It does feel like swimming in sewage. It does.

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Speaker 4: And I think it is very difficult to be a

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Speaker 4: person in the world right now, whether you are a

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Speaker 4: parent or not a parent. I think the onslaught of

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Speaker 4: the headlines is really really difficult to navigate. Like this

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Speaker 4: is worse than how it felt in the first Trump administration.

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Speaker 4: And I remember that felt like an onslaught of push

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Speaker 4: alerts and lines, you know, I speaking about being a mom.

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Speaker 4: I was getting my son ready for swim class when

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Speaker 4: I looked down on my phone on Wednesday and saw

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Speaker 4: the push alert about Jimmy Kimmel's show being suspended indefinitely.

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Speaker 4: And it is so rare now that I get to

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Speaker 4: a place where I see something that popped up on

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Speaker 4: my phone and I have a visceral reaction to it

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Speaker 4: out loud. And that was a moment where I felt

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Speaker 4: that way. And I don't want to say that there's

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Speaker 4: a dichotomy between the people who are paying super close

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Speaker 4: attention to everything that's happening every single day in Washington,

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Speaker 4: right Not everyone is watching c SPAN. Not everyone is

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Speaker 4: keeping close tabs on these a SIP meetings that are

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Speaker 4: talking about, you know, which vaccines will be available for

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Speaker 4: our children moving forward nationwide. But something like Jimmy Kimmel

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Speaker 4: getting canceled in the way that he was that it

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Speaker 4: was a reflection in an outgrowth of the plans of

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Speaker 4: this administration that were outlined in Project twenty twenty five

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Speaker 4: to quash descent and to fundamentally reshape the way we

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Speaker 4: get to live our lif I think something about that

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Speaker 4: moment being so public and also so commercial, so like

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Speaker 4: pop culture oriented, I feel that there are going to

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Speaker 4: be people who are more inclined to be in tune

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Speaker 4: with that and to start asking questions about the other

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Speaker 4: things that are going on because it's really starting to

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Speaker 4: be more in your face.

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Speaker 3: And the question, I think is what breaks through.

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Speaker 1: Sarah's spent all this time doing a lot of media

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Speaker 1: that people never saw. A lot of us are very

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Speaker 1: stressed and are not reading the news. So the question

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Speaker 1: is like, what is a big enough thing to get

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Speaker 1: people's attention, to get them to see that none of

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Speaker 1: this is normal and there's a real chance that this

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Speaker 1: is in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're asking a question that sort of

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Speaker 4: speaks to an individual level. But I really like to

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Speaker 4: think about a system's question, and what shapes people's understanding

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Speaker 4: isn't just how much they're opting in. It's when they

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Speaker 4: opt in what they're getting exposed to. And I still

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Speaker 4: think that there is a broader need for Democrats in

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Speaker 4: Washington to be raising the alarm bells or sounding the

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Speaker 4: alarm bells more than they are currently. I saw the

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Speaker 4: statement from past Democratic leadership in response to Jimmy Kimmel's

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Speaker 4: removal from the airwaves. I saw a few members in

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Speaker 4: different hearings, whether it was Eric Swawall in California or

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Speaker 4: somewhere else, saying that if and when Democrats take power

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Speaker 4: in the midterm, that all of these officials involved with

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Speaker 4: the sec from Brandon carr on down better save their

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Speaker 4: receipt because there will be investigations. And I think that

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Speaker 4: there is a responsibility for some of these elected officials

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Speaker 4: in Washington to start creating conflict and tension because, as

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Speaker 4: we know, for better for worse, the national media is

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Speaker 4: deeply oriented around conflict, and if there isn't conflict, that's

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Speaker 4: not how they actually tell the story.

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Speaker 3: This is so brilliant and I agree with everything you're so.

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Speaker 4: I'll give you a recent example of this. So there

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Speaker 4: was a hearing on Capitol Hill this week where DC

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Speaker 4: Mayor Muriel Bowser was called to testify before a House committee.

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Speaker 4: And I think that this is really notable because Washington,

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Speaker 4: d C has been occupied now for almost six weeks,

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Speaker 4: and at the end of the day, the mayor of

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Speaker 4: d C has not got done a good enough job

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Speaker 4: of saying how wrong this is, how much it's damaging

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Speaker 4: the city, and has continued to let this narrative be

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Speaker 4: around quote unquote crime as opposed to what we're seeing,

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Speaker 4: which is a massive escalation of authoritarianism in our capital

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Speaker 4: city at the seat of our government. I think that

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Speaker 4: because there hasn't been as much resistance on that. It

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Speaker 4: has completely allowed the media narrative to be something that's

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Speaker 4: very distorted from the reality. So, like, I saw a

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Speaker 4: punch Bowl News headline, which is a sentence I never

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Speaker 4: want to stay out loud.

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Speaker 3: Yes, punch Bowl News is a B to B kind of.

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Speaker 4: Insidery newsletter rag sort of thing. Okay, So they had

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Speaker 4: the headline about this hearing and it was like, you know,

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Speaker 4: we expect tension about this hearing on Donald Trump's efforts

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Speaker 4: to eliminate crime in the district of Columbia.

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Speaker 1: Talk about taking a Republican narrative. Yes, yes, And so.

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Speaker 4: At the end of the day, understanding that this is broken, right,

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Speaker 4: that both sides journalism is a broken culture of access journalism,

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Speaker 4: and that relying on Democrats say Republicans say really obscures

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Speaker 4: the truth. We can all agree on that when Democrats

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Speaker 4: aren't saying the thing clearly, that's where we get problems

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Speaker 4: in terms of people's understanding of the seriousness of this moment.

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Speaker 3: And this has been a very.

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Speaker 4: Significant failure of democratic leadership in Washington. And people are like, well,

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Speaker 4: you can't blame democrats. Republicans are the authoritarians here. Yes,

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Speaker 4: that is true, but you have to be an opposition

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Speaker 4: party that actually outlines what happens. Otherwise that perspective is missing,

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Speaker 4: and we see how things escalate in the absence of

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Speaker 4: that perspective.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and in fact, what I would like now is

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Speaker 1: to talk for a minute about my hobby. Why I

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Speaker 1: have a hobby, which is I call Democratic comms people

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Speaker 1: and complain about what a bad job they're doing.

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Speaker 3: I wish that were my job.

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Speaker 4: That would be so cathartic and fun for me.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it's why I don't have a lot of friends.

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Speaker 4: I mean, me too, Molly, but we can be friends

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Speaker 4: with each and we're friends.

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Speaker 3: With each other.

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Speaker 1: So I was texting leader Jeffreys, comms guy, and I

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Speaker 1: was saying, you know, I don't see you guys anywhere. Well,

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Speaker 1: I see our tweets making fun of your statement.

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Speaker 3: That's it. I don't see anything.

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Speaker 1: Look, there are Democrats out there who are doing well.

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Speaker 1: Robert Garcia, a ranking member of Oversight. Right, the original

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Speaker 1: guy that Democrats wanted to put in that job. He died, Right,

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Speaker 1: You'll remember, I don't really want to go down that

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but like the guy they wanted in the job.

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Speaker 1: Seventy six year old Jerry Connolly I was told was

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Speaker 1: a but we never saw them. So that guy died

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Speaker 1: and then Democrats were allowed to elevate someone who actually

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Speaker 1: could do it.

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Speaker 3: And it's not an easy job.

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Speaker 1: Like this is all scary stuff, right, I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: scary to get past threats.

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Speaker 3: But if you are not going to be an opposition party,

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Speaker 3: then why are you there? What are you doing? You

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Speaker 3: know there are.

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Speaker 1: People who have no power and no money who are

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Speaker 1: protesting why you get to be in our government if

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Speaker 1: you're not going to fight for the people, because we

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Speaker 1: don't work for you, you work for us.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you should want more than a driver and access

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Speaker 4: to the Capitol Building to have a job in the

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Speaker 4: United States Capitol Building. And in my mind, and I'm

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Speaker 4: sure in your mind and the minds of many of

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Speaker 4: your listeners, like the job was to protect democracy, and honestly,

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Speaker 4: Congress failed at that after January sixth, even though the

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Speaker 4: attack came to them, authoritarianism came to them. And so

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Speaker 4: now we're here, And a few episodes ago, or a

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Speaker 4: few appearances ago, when I came on to talk to you,

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Speaker 4: we talked about my peace primary every Democrat, which had

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Speaker 4: published at the beginning of this administration, and one of

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Speaker 4: the things that really set me off and inspired me

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Speaker 4: to write it was the number two Senate Democrat, Dick Durbin,

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Speaker 4: telling a reporter, well, we've never seen this before. We're

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Speaker 4: just learning how to deal with it. You have to

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Speaker 4: give us some time, as if we didn't have four

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Speaker 4: years of Donald Trump before this, as if we didn't

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Speaker 4: see January sixth with our own eyes. And I think

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Speaker 4: that a lot of people who spent a long time

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Speaker 4: in Washington lived under this delusion that it could just

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Speaker 4: snap back right, that it would be a normal bounce

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Speaker 4: back between a democratic administration and a Republican administration, and

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Speaker 4: everyone could go to their cocktail hour at Johnny's Hafshell

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Speaker 4: afterwards and have a great time. And at the end

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Speaker 4: of the day, that was not the design of the

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Speaker 4: people who were taking power. That was not what they wanted.

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Speaker 4: They wanted to fundamentally reshape this country. And the people

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Speaker 4: who are the most intransigent in Washington, the people who

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Speaker 4: are the least reactive to what's happening, seem to not

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Speaker 4: really have a clear idea of the symmetry of the

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Speaker 4: ills in our politics. You know, when I see people

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Speaker 4: being like, well, we have to condemn violence on the

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Speaker 4: right and violence on the left. Yes, we should condemn

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Speaker 4: all violence, but also we should identify where threats are

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Speaker 4: coming from and what the reality of our country is

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Speaker 4: right now, because that's the fear and anxiety that everyone

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Speaker 4: is living in and with, and if you can't speak

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Speaker 4: clearly to it, you're never going to be an effective politician,

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Speaker 4: because part of the job of being a politician is

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Speaker 4: being able to accurately channel and reflect the energy of

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Speaker 4: the people you are sent to represent. And there are

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Speaker 4: people who are really scared right now. There are people

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Speaker 4: who are scared because they believe in the right things,

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Speaker 4: and there are people who are scared because they're fit.

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Speaker 4: Physical lives are in danger. Like as we are talking,

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Speaker 4: there is a standoff between ICE and protesters at a

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Speaker 4: facility in suburban Chicago because they're trying to kidnap people,

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Speaker 4: and they're tear gassing protesters and they're throwing congressional candidates

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Speaker 4: on the ground, And like, this is our country right now,

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Speaker 4: and four years of this is not who we are

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Speaker 4: didn't really bring us any closer to a multi racial

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Speaker 4: democratic future that we deserve.

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Speaker 1: They need to have a plan, they need to stick

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Speaker 1: to the plan. They need to talk, they need to

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Speaker 1: be everywhere all the time. They need to go on

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan. If Joe Rogan is upset, they need to

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Speaker 1: go on it. Like this whole idea that one of

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Speaker 1: the things I've been really stripped by is this sort

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Speaker 1: of rigidness, this refusal to change with the times. I

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Speaker 1: understand that this is stressful for them, but you know,

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Speaker 1: it's stressful for all of us.

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Speaker 3: And Chicago is such a good example. Pushback works, which

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Speaker 3: that works? Are there federal troops in Chicago?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 3: Why is that? Because of two things?

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Speaker 1: Right, Brenda Johnson and Governor Pritzgar, and they created a

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Speaker 1: united front and they said no, hell no, if you

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Speaker 1: push fact, it works, and if you give in, like

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Speaker 1: when the law firms and the colleges and the billionaires,

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Speaker 1: they just keep taking and taking and taking. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think there are a lot of layers to what

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Speaker 4: you just said. So I'll start with capitulating in advance.

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Speaker 4: I think that that has not been an effective strategy

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Speaker 4: because confessions operate in a universe where there's some sort

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Speaker 4: of negotiation or good faith actors in both sides. But

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Speaker 4: these are people who are trying to get to the

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Speaker 4: same ends as everyone. They're trying to coerce. They're just

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Speaker 4: trying to coerce for the sake of coercion or extortion

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Speaker 4: or fundamentally changing the foundations of our democracy, whether it

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Speaker 4: is the law or higher education. They're trying to ruin

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Speaker 4: the law, they're trying to ruin the arts. Because their

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Speaker 4: goal is not the country we used to live in,

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Speaker 4: and we'll never return to that country. The objective of

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Speaker 4: the people who would be positioned to defend us should

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Speaker 4: be confronting reality and then also outline how we get

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Speaker 4: from here to something else, because we're never really bouncing

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Speaker 4: back to what we had. We have to rebuild a

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Speaker 4: new when you think about all of these agencies that

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Speaker 4: have been destroyed, when you think about HHS and health,

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Speaker 4: the Human Services and the CDC and the FDA, all

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Speaker 4: of these things that used to keep us or help

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Speaker 4: keep us living safely and freely. We've purged scientists, we've

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Speaker 4: purged experts, we've purged the people that brought their love

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Speaker 4: of country and their expertise to the project of our government.

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Speaker 4: And the project of our government was what made democracy

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Speaker 4: possible even as it was failing. So all of those

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Speaker 4: things are gone. And in order to emerge from this,

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Speaker 4: in order to give people hope and have them organized,

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Speaker 4: like on a everyday people around what a future could be,

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Speaker 4: you have to articulate it, and you have to articulate

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Speaker 4: it forcefully. I will say, you know, on your note

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Speaker 4: about Chicago and Illinois, I really don't want to diminish

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Speaker 4: the degree to which there are ICE agents and federal

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Speaker 4: agents across the city now and around the city. And

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Speaker 4: I think one of the things that we really have

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Speaker 4: to grapple with is the overall national media attention and

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Speaker 4: the kinds of conflicts that really generate energy and sourcing

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Speaker 4: them and understanding where they're from. So I had a

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Speaker 4: piece two weeks ago in the New Republic, and it

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Speaker 4: was really focused specifically on what Washington, DC is and

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Speaker 4: what makes it unique. And at the end of the day,

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Speaker 4: there are approximately seven hundred thousand people who live in

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Speaker 4: the District of Columbia who don't have full constitutional citizenship

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Speaker 4: in this country. They've never had representation in Congress, and

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Speaker 4: their municipal government operates in this weird conservatorship sort of agreement.

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Speaker 4: I kind of explain it as like the people of

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Speaker 4: DC or Britney Spears and the federal government is the

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Speaker 4: conservators and they're not allowed to actually have any degree

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Speaker 4: of independence. And so it's very easy for Trump to

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Speaker 4: send the National Guard into d C because they can

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Speaker 4: federalize the police force. Because it's only about sixty square

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Speaker 4: miles of area, he can get the images that he want.

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Speaker 4: He can put National Guards on the mall or at

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Speaker 4: the doorways of schools, and he can be effective in

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Speaker 4: that way. It is much harder to do that in

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Speaker 4: a place like Chicago or Los Angeles, because the federal

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Speaker 4: government doesn't have as much authority to operate geographically. It's

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Speaker 4: much larger, and frankly, I worry about how much we

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Speaker 4: dehumanized the people of d C. As we have lived

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Speaker 4: for decades under rhetoric that has made people believe that

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Speaker 4: government is bad and evil. How does that actually trickle

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Speaker 4: down to the people who live there. I think a

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Speaker 4: lot of the daily fear and destruction is really focused

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Speaker 4: now in communities of color where we have a lot

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Speaker 4: of immigrants, and also at sort of the outskirts of

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Speaker 4: the city, because there are less resources to cover those

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Speaker 4: communities on a local basis, and the national media is

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Speaker 4: less concerned about that than they were about seeing something

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Speaker 4: replicated like DC in a different city, which is almost

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Speaker 4: impossible based on the fundamentals of DC and any other

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Speaker 4: major city in the country.

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Speaker 1: Yes, very true, and resistance one point zero. Trump's first

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Speaker 1: administration was a failure because people push back. Now we

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Speaker 1: don't see that same kind of concerned effort, and that

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Speaker 1: is what we need to see in order to stop

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Speaker 1: this authoritarian slide.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be this way. You know, people

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Speaker 3: are powerful. None of this is popular. Donald Trump is

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Speaker 3: a lame duck his popularity. He is now the least

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00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 3: popular he's ever been.

439
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 4: But Mollie I thought Jimmy Kimmel was the unpopular one.

440
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 3: Thank you, Meredith. Okay, bye, Molly, Thank you.

441
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: Will Sommer is a reporter at The Bulwark and the

442
00:23:58,080 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 1: author of Trust the Plan.

443
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 3: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Will.

444
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,199
Speaker 5: Soma Thanks for having me.

445
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 3: We are a.

446
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: Week from the really terrible murder of Charlie Kirk and

447
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: turning point. USA has become kind of a sort of

448
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: hot commodity in Trump world. It is a humongous organization

449
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: that had millions of people in it and now there's

450
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 1: sort of a there's kind of a legacy fight going

451
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: on here a little bit.

452
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, So, as I read my newsletter this week about

453
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 6: how there's a real battle over what Charlie Kirk would

454
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 6: have wanted, what the legacy of Charlie Kirk is, and

455
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 6: who should run Turning Point USA after his death. And

456
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 6: so we have people from the you know, the main

457
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 6: fault line here is Israel. And so you have people

458
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 6: like Candice Owen's Tucker Carlson, who had been critical of Israel.

459
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 6: They're saying, well, you know, in the days leading up

460
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 6: to his death, these donors, these pro Israel donors were

461
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 6: tormenting Charlie and they wanted him to ban people like

462
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 6: Tucker Carlson from Turning Point USA events.

463
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 5: And then on the other.

464
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 6: Hand, you have people like Laura Lumer, Benchkapiro, even JD Vance,

465
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 6: you know, Benjamin Etta, who got involved to dispute the

466
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 6: client the idea that that Israel Minister of Israel.

467
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 1: So wait, there's some there's a there's a lie going

468
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: around that Israel murdered Charlie Kirk.

469
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

470
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 6: I would say that's probably the biggest conspiracy theory right

471
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 6: now on the right is that Israel murdered Charlie Kirk.

472
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 5: There's really no evidence of it, basically, I.

473
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 3: Think, really no evidence.

474
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 6: Of you know, even people like Steve Bannon have been

475
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 6: who has not endorsed the Israel hypothesis, but have been

476
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 6: there's kind of the sense of like disappointment, I think,

477
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 6: dissatisfaction with the official narrative, you know, as we're seeing

478
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 6: on the left too. But I think there's this sense of,

479
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 6: you know, this has to have been the work of

480
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 6: some you know, left wing network, and particularly the fact

481
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 6: that it's a it's a white guy from a Maga

482
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 6: family in Utah. Is they're kind of like, you know,

483
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 6: this isn't quite maybe the pretext we wanted, and so

484
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 6: people are, you know, coming up with other theories, and

485
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 6: so canis Owen's Tucker Carlson when they come out there

486
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 6: and they say, well, in his final days, Charlie Kirk

487
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 6: was being tormented over Israel. I think certainly in Kansas's case,

488
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 6: there's this implication. She's not saying, you know, the Masad

489
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 6: sent to sniper or whatever, but she's sort of there's

490
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 6: this insinuation, you know, Okay, well this is who was

491
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 6: mad at him, right, before his death, and they were

492
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 6: concerned he would flip and become critical of Israel and

493
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 6: then the next day he was murdered.

494
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: I don't think it's just that the story doesn't meet

495
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: some of the narrative desires. I also think there's a

496
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: larger issue here, which is that if everything is a conspiracy,

497
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: then nothing can be just the most likely explanation. And

498
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: so when you and I think we'll keep seeing this

499
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: around Trump world, right, that these a lot of guns

500
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 1: and a lot of kids in this age bracket of

501
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: their twenties who are boys who are disaffected and unhappy

502
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: and spending too much time online and doing real bad stuff.

503
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: So like, I just wonder if you could talk about

504
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: sort of the conspiracy minded stuff that is eroding some

505
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: of the unity I think in this group too.

506
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 6: I mean, look, this is a universe where people are

507
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 6: prone basically any big event that happens, they're going to

508
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 6: say there was a sinister force behind it. If there's

509
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 6: a fire in California, it wasn't global warming or that's

510
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 6: the dry season, it's that you know, the lasers they

511
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 6: are being shot down to start fires, and so in

512
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 6: that way, you know this is a group that and

513
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 6: of course, you know, the obvious example being, you know,

514
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 6: the idea that school shootings were false flags. They're very

515
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 6: steeped in this, and so then when they have something

516
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 6: that happens, where the narrative is you know more or

517
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 6: less what I mean, this guy appears to have been

518
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 6: coming from a liberal perspective on you know, gay rights

519
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 6: something like that. They are still like, what else is there?

520
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 6: What's the truth? Are these text messages real? And really

521
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 6: in a way that's sort of distracting, I think from

522
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 6: the Trump administration's effort to crack down on the left.

523
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 6: You know, were I was seeing you know, far right

524
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 6: accounts say like you know, Nick Fuent is the saying this, saying,

525
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 6: you know, hey, dummies, we're trying to crush the left here.

526
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 6: We have this once in a generation opportunity. As you know,

527
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 6: people like Benny Johnson have said, this is an enormous

528
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 6: chance to really punish liberal institutions basically pretextually and so

529
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 6: but instead we're going to talk about Israel, and so

530
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 6: there's been a lot of frustration over that.

531
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 1: Now there is I saw that Candice Owens has like

532
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: a whole story of a weekend Can you talk us

533
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: through that.

534
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, So a lot of this has focused on this

535
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 5: sort of right wing influencer retreat that was held in

536
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,239
Speaker 5: Bridge Hampton in the Hamptons.

537
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 6: At a hotel one does Well, I was going to say,

538
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 6: you know, I know, I see you at the influencers,

539
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 6: and you know, that demonstrates how much money is really

540
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 6: just floating around on the right. So basically, Bill Ackman.

541
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: These are the richest people in the world.

542
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, literally yes, And I mean that also helps explain

543
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 6: why Turning Point USA became so enormous, because these right

544
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,239
Speaker 6: wing rich guys said, oh great, this guy's gonna, you know,

545
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 6: turn a bunch of young people to the right.

546
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 5: Why not give him a ton of money.

547
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 6: So basically, Bill Ackman, the billionaire, decided to with Charlie Kirk,

548
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 6: they hosted this, like, as I said, an influencer retreat

549
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 6: in the Hamptons in early August. And there's sort of

550
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 6: different takes on why they did this. On one hand,

551
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 6: Charlie Kirk himself was growing slightly more critical of Israel.

552
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 6: He's like ninety nine percent supportive, sort of saying, you know,

553
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 6: should we wrap up this Warren Gaza. Young people are

554
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 6: really tunning against this and then, so there was this

555
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 6: idea in Kida his owns. It's telling that Bill Ackman said, okay, well,

556
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 6: like let's get all these people together and talk about Israel.

557
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 6: But she's claimed that this basically devolved into sort of

558
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 6: an ambush with Charlie Kirk where Bill Ackman some other

559
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 6: pro Israel people really confronted him and said, you know,

560
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 6: you need to get back in line, and in fact,

561
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 6: you need to go to Israel and sort of almost

562
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 6: like a like a re education tour.

563
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 3: Right Is that true? Do we know if that's true?

564
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 5: Well, so Bill Ackman has said there was no confrontation.

565
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: I kind of it was a very long Bill Ackman

566
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: tweet that I saw, incredibly about two thousand words.

567
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 5: And this should give me the sense of how rich

568
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 5: this guy was.

569
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 6: It struck me that he said, well, I decided to

570
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 6: host it because I like, I'm hanging out there in

571
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 6: the Hamptons and I kind of wanted to pop into

572
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 6: a couple events. So sure, I'll fund bringing one hundred

573
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 6: people to the Hamptons and putting them up in a

574
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 6: hotel for the weekend, so I could, you know, pop

575
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 6: in for an hour. But anyway, so he claimed there

576
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 6: was no confrontation. You know, some other people who were

577
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 6: there turning point, USA has said there was no confrontation.

578
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 6: Some people will say, though, that there was sort of

579
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 6: a perhaps a dispute or at a little bit of

580
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 6: a debate about Israel. But I think the most telling

581
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 6: thing here is the day after the retreat, Charlie Kirk

582
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 6: goes on Megan Kelly's show, and Meghan Kelly herself is

583
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 6: kind of drifting away from Israel. I think she sort

584
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 6: of just sees the way the winds are blowing. And

585
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 6: so he goes on there and he says, you know,

586
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 6: I am so sick of these israel people treating me,

587
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 6: just jumping all over me for any mild criticism. He

588
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 6: calls it repulsive the way they're treating him. I mean,

589
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 6: he acts like a guy who just got harangued for

590
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 6: a weekend at the Hamptons, you know, whether or not

591
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 6: that happened.

592
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: And then he says that she may be libeled him,

593
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: and there's some threats of a loss suit. So just

594
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: get me to where we are now with this situation.

595
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 6: So basically, as a result, so Tucker Carlson and Megan

596
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 6: Kelly have kind of backed up her claims about this

597
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 6: tension between Charlie Kirk and Israel. A lot of other

598
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 6: right wing people got involved. Jade Vance said essentially, can

599
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 6: we wait until the funeral is over, which, you know,

600
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 6: fair point. Benjamin at Yaho put out a video saying

601
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 6: we didn't kill Charlie Kirk. He loved Israel, and so

602
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 6: now we're looking.

603
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: At this point gotten really nuts.

604
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's an international story now, but basically, I think

605
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 6: if you pull the lens back a little, the issue

606
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 6: is the Charlie Kirk legacy and his kind of martyrdom

607
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 6: on the right and what that means, how that's going

608
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 6: to be interpreted, and is he going to be interpreted

609
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 6: as this very straightforward right wing maga guy. Or you

610
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 6: can see Tucker Carlson is trying to shift this as well.

611
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 6: He's saying Charlie's views on economics and specifically wealth distribution,

612
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 6: he was becoming much more populist in his final days.

613
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 6: Or you can see the sort of mainline TPUSA people

614
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 6: are saying, you know, Charlie was an evangelical Christian, which

615
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 6: is correct, and they're trying to make this kind of

616
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 6: a big church moment as well. This is going to

617
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 6: start a revival across America, whereas Candice Owns is saying

618
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 6: Charlie was on the verge of becoming Catholic, and so

619
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 6: there's this very like and then you know, I will

620
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 6: say had he converted to Catholicism On the right, there's

621
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 6: kind of a political tenor to that as well. That

622
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 6: means you're sort of further on the right typically and

623
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,239
Speaker 6: perhaps more critical of Israel, someone like Nick Fuente's. So

624
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 6: there's a lot of like religious political overtones here and

625
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 6: there's just like it's getting very vicious.

626
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: This is sometimes what happens when very wealthy people die

627
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: or someone with a lot of power, that people come

628
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: in and try to kind of co opt the narrative.

629
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,959
Speaker 1: That's not a left or right issue, that's just a

630
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: human nature issue. That said, there is sort of this

631
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: other ripple, which is the wife, right, the witness.

632
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, so Erica Kirk, who gave last week is sort

633
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 6: of what was very well received on the right as

634
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 6: sort of a eulogy immediately after his assassination, I believe

635
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 6: it two days after. And so she obviously has a

636
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 6: lot of there's a lot of support for her, a

637
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 6: lot of energy for her on the right. And on Friday,

638
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 6: or excuse me, on Thursday, they made her the CEO

639
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 6: of Turning Point USA, so sort of as his air

640
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 6: his replacement. It's a little unclear to me whether she's

641
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 6: going to have as big a media role as he did.

642
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 6: Obviously it would be difficult for her, even before the

643
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 6: assassination to have had it as outsized a role, but

644
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 6: it's a little unclear where that she wants that.

645
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,479
Speaker 5: Obviously she has a lot of other things going on.

646
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 6: And so I think people are sort of from a

647
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 6: practical point of view, seeing this chance of you know,

648
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 6: Turning Point USA, this behemoth organization with a huge amount

649
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 6: of money.

650
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 5: What's going to happen to it?

651
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 6: Eric Bowling, the former Fox host who's on the board

652
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 6: at Turning Point, he came out and said, you know,

653
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 6: Cannon Owens, you know they hadn't talked in years. You know,

654
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 6: he want Charlie wanted nothing to do with her, essentially,

655
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 6: So there's this really and again, you know, I do

656
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 6: want to emphasize the memorial hasn't happened, the funeral hasn't happened,

657
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 6: So what is that going to look like? How vicious

658
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 6: is this fight going to get? And I think it

659
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 6: also like there are for people who are outside of

660
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 6: this world who don't think that they're, you know, going

661
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 6: to inherit the Charlie or legacy. For the average person,

662
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 6: there's a question of how does this affect the Trump

663
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 6: administration's efforts to crack down on people and how does

664
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 6: this play into twenty twenty eight.

665
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 5: I mean, this organization has a lot of PIPA.

666
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: So let's talk through because clearly the Trump administration has

667
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: used the Charlie Kirk killing as a way to crush dissent,

668
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 1: and we see this with Jimmy Kimmel. So Brendan Carr

669
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: goes on the podcast of Benny Johnson and says, we

670
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: can do this the hard way or we can do

671
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 1: this the easy way. And we've seen Trump do this too.

672
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: We've seen they tend to talk like this.

673
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 3: We can do this.

674
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: I mean, we've earned Trump say we can do this

675
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: the hard way or the easy way. So immediately Disney

676
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: pulls Jimmy Kimmel's show.

677
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 6: Yes, And the first domino to fall were these local

678
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 6: stations that flip out because Brendan Carr says, you know,

679
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 6: maybe we'll threaten your licenses. Obviously they have some of

680
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 6: them have mergers that are that will require you's approval.

681
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: Six billion dollars more they want to buy. So Next

682
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: Star wants to buy another it's called Tegna. Tegna right,

683
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: another small not that small obviously, but local news stations.

684
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, and the size of this merger, it would be enormous.

685
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 6: It would probably violate current SEC rules about stations as

686
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 6: you know, conglomerate size.

687
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 5: And so they really need Brendan Colin to trust.

688
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: But because the law has been sort of ignored in

689
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: nine months of Trump administration, they know they can get

690
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: by if they just make Trump happy.

691
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

692
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 6: So, I mean he goes on on Benny Johnson, which

693
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 6: you know was iously Benny in the past, just recently

694
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 6: was receiving Russian money just a year ago to vunt

695
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 6: his operation. And so now they come out and they say, uh,

696
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 6: you know, well, we're gonna within within twelve hours or something,

697
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 6: you know, Jimmy Kimmel's show is on ICE. And so

698
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 6: I think, as we've seen over and over, whether it's

699
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 6: sixty minutes, whether it's ABC's previous capitulation to Trump with

700
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 6: George Defhanopolis, these companies are absolutely terrified Trump. And even

701
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 6: if they could win on the legal side. I think

702
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 6: Brett as sixty minutes easily could have. Brendan Carr has

703
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 6: made clear that you know, he's going to hold anything up.

704
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 6: He's going to cause a lot of trouble if you

705
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 6: don't go along with the way Trump wants.

706
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that I think is where we find ourselves.

707
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: So here's a I wonder there has been, and this

708
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: I think is important and also terrifying. The right has

709
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: seen that going down, this taking people off the air

710
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: because they say stuff you don't like road could really

711
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: actually backfire against them too. So talk us through sort

712
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,720
Speaker 1: of the pushback we're seeing on both sides. And again

713
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: we saw earlier this week Pam Bondy, Donald Trump's greatest champion,

714
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: said something to the effect of, like, there's free speech

715
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: and then there's speech we don't like and that's not

716
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: covered by the So talk us through Pam Bondy and

717
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: the other Republicans pushing back. Yeah.

718
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 5: Sure, So. Pam Bondi in sort of a classic PANM.

719
00:36:58,160 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 5: Bondi move.

720
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 6: I mean, she basically was saying whateverone else in the

721
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 6: administration was saying about a crackdown, but she phrased it

722
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 6: in this way about hate speech that I think Republicans

723
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 6: sound very triggering because they're used to hate speech, you know,

724
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 6: that idea being weaponized against them, and so she had

725
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 6: to walk that back. But what I think it's really

726
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 6: interesting and more telling is that Trump has not walked

727
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 6: it back. I mean, he said, well, you know, yeah,

728
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 6: you know, you can't be you know, he's he's threatened

729
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 6: reporters this week, he's threatened you know, he's he's had comedians,

730
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 6: you know, can't really make fun of him. And so

731
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 6: the there's clearly, I think a big crackdown brewing. I mean,

732
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 6: we're we're already seeing it. Mean to be frank with

733
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 6: Jimmy Kimmel, and I think there's this sense. I think

734
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 6: the thing to go back to is that the difference

735
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 6: between the first Trump administration and the second Trump administration

736
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 6: has really been the growth of this movement called the

737
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 6: New Right.

738
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 5: This is jd.

739
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 6: Vance, Peter Teelemnious, Moldbug, all these these so called thinkers right,

740
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 6: and their idea is, you know, we stuck by the rules,

741
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 6: we did the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and where

742
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 6: did that get us? Well, conservatives are out of power culturally,

743
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 6: you know, they believe that's.

744
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 3: Got billions of dollars. But that was not enough exactly.

745
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 5: And so so now they're they're very explicit.

746
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 6: About, you know, we're going to be like Victor Oorbona,

747
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 6: We're going to use government power to crush our enemies,

748
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 6: whether it's political or cultural. We're not going to worry

749
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 6: about whether that's hypocritical, whether that's what the founders would

750
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 6: have wanted, anything like that. But we're I mean, there's

751
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 6: really no limit as they see it, in terms of

752
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 6: their power.

753
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a kind of scary.

754
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, And I mean I think you know, there's

755
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 6: also you know, there's gonna be a chilling effect on

756
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 6: media institutions. I mean because really people have said this,

757
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 6: but you know, if you look at Jimmy Kimill said,

758
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 6: it's really not objectionable at all. I mean, it's not

759
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 6: like you know, these these comments. You know, in the

760
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 6: past you can say, oh, yeah, you know that guy,

761
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 6: you can see why that guy got suspended or something

762
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 6: like that. But I think that is going to be

763
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 6: even more chilling because then people are gonna be like, well,

764
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 6: you can kind of just get picked at random by

765
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 6: Benny Johnson and he'll put a clip in front of

766
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 6: the SEC chairman and then you're.

767
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 3: Out, which is true, which is what it is. Now.

768
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: It strikes me that this is a lot like when

769
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: the Trump administration, when universities made deals with the Trump administration,

770
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: they made these deals they were not legal, so they

771
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: had no instead of like, for example, if you fought

772
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: back against Trump, you would probably win because I mean,

773
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: just like when Sherry Redstone settled that sixteen million dollar

774
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: for VLIS lawsuit with the Trump administration, every legal scholar

775
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,919
Speaker 1: said there was no way that the Trump administration would

776
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: have won a lawsuit because you didn't like the way

777
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: an episode of sixty Minutes was edited, Like that's not

778
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: how any of this works. But it didn't matter because

779
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: it set a precedent for settling these kind of things.

780
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: So and once you go into these deals with Trump,

781
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: because they're not necessarily legal, you have to trust him.

782
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, look, I mean this is kind of

783
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 6: the same playbook we've seen with all these institutions. I mean,

784
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 6: going after the law firms, going after the media, going

785
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 6: after academia, and you know, again, they are not for

786
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 6: the most part, there is not even like a shred

787
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 6: of a legal case. It's just you know, I didn't

788
00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 6: like who you represented in the case of these law firms,

789
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 6: or you know, I don't like that you allowed these

790
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 6: protests for the universities. As you said, there's no like,

791
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 6: it's not really like an official deal with the Department

792
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,280
Speaker 6: of Justice. You know, even after these so called deals

793
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 6: are signed, then there's kind of this dispute afterwards. I mean,

794
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 6: you're kind of letting the vampire in the house and

795
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 6: then hoping that he you know, just goes to his

796
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 6: room or something like like once he's in, he's going

797
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 6: to keep shaking you down. As again, you know, because

798
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 6: there have been so many examples of this, I think

799
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 6: we've kind of forgotten the George Staffanopolis thing where that

800
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 6: you know, step monopolists kind of mischaracterized slightly, the Eging

801
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 6: Carol case. And then suddenly ABC, you know, folds to

802
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 6: Trump gives him I believe, sixteen million dollars to the library,

803
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 6: and that I think you might say, Okay, they've they

804
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 6: paid their protection money, now we can.

805
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 3: Move on, or it's not how it works, of course not.

806
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 6: And then you know he's going to come back and

807
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 6: he's going to say, oh, well, you know I didn't

808
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 6: like what Jimmy Kimmel said.

809
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 5: You know, it'd be a shame if all your your

810
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 5: affiliates lost their licenses.

811
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I think what we've seen with all

812
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: of these quote unquote deals is that they don't work.

813
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: So it begs the question, why do we think these

814
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: intostitutions keep making them.

815
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 6: I mean, I think that you know, we live in

816
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 6: a time where I think these you know, these businesses

817
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 6: seem feel really empowered to you know, to just focus

818
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 6: on the you know, delivering for their shareholders, and they

819
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 6: just want to avoid.

820
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 5: Like any kind of you know.

821
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 6: I mean, you can see how much troubled Cracker Barrel

822
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 6: got into for God's sake, for changing their logo. They

823
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 6: had to redo all the restaurants and and so you know,

824
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 6: there's this terror of kind of like the iosauron of

825
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 6: Trump falling on you.

826
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 2: Uh.

827
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 6: And you know, but as you said, I mean, it

828
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 6: will never be enough. I mean, you can look at

829
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 6: Fox News. We can't can't imagine a channel that would

830
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 6: be more slavish in his devotion to Trump. But as soon,

831
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 6: you know, we know Trump, he'll rails people on Fox News.

832
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 6: Or when the Wall Street Journal ran the Epstein birthday letter.

833
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 6: You know, now he's suing them, so you know it

834
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 6: really unless you're.

835
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 3: Gonna go like full billion dollars, Yeah, so, I.

836
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 5: Mean, unless you're gonna go like full Benny Johnson mode.

837
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 6: You know, there's really no level to which you can

838
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 6: stoop for the president in media that that is going

839
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 6: to be enough for them.

840
00:41:54,400 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 3: Thank you, Will Sommer, Thanks for having me no moment perfectly,

841
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 3: Jessy Cannon.

842
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: My junk fast so Ken Clippen Steed Front of the

843
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: Show has a very very disturbing report that the FBI

844
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: is writying a new war on trans people and you

845
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: could see it on the right wing messaging now is

846
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 2: they're trying to make Trantifa a thing, which God help us.

847
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, they're going to do all of that,

848
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: and that's why we all have to be focused on

849
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 1: pushing back in the best way we can. We need

850
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: to push back peacefully. We need to push back in

851
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 1: the way that is peaceful, but is clear that this

852
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: is not okay. There is no world in which throwing

853
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: trans people under the bus makes anyone safer. We do

854
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: not abandon each other. This is such a dark, dark moment,

855
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: and you know we're not going to get out of

856
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: this until people say peacefully that it's enough. That's it

857
00:42:55,200 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday,

858
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics make

859
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

860
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

861
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.