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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. He's a money stuff guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it'll be great.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Money Stuff Podcast. Here weekly

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Speaker 2: podcast where we talk about stuff related to money and

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk. I'm Matt Levian and I are at the

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Speaker 2: Moneystuff column for Bloomberg Opens and.

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Speaker 1: I'm Katie Greifeld. I'm a reporter for Bloomberg News and

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Speaker 1: an anchor for Bloomberg Television.

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Speaker 2: What are you talking about today, Katie?

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Speaker 1: Okay, we're obviously talking about Elon Musk and the results

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Speaker 1: of the shareholder vote, the two prong issues there.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about.

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Speaker 1: An extremely messy deal.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about the Paramount.

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Speaker 1: Skydance deal, and then we're going to talk about mouse

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Speaker 1: jigglers and Wells Fargo and getting fired.

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Speaker 2: Sounds great. He is a money stuff guy.

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Speaker 3: It's Friday morning in America.

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk has gotten his money. He has, I mean

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Speaker 2: sort of. He had the vote for his money. Did

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Speaker 2: he get his money? Complicated question?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, TBD on that point.

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Speaker 1: So the shareholder vote happened for for Tesla, and I

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Speaker 1: think it was I think this is the most boring

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Speaker 1: outcome actually, So they.

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Speaker 2: Had to vote on two things right. One is should

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Speaker 2: Helen Musk get his money? And the other was should

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Speaker 2: they reincorporate to Texas? Right. If they voted against them

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Speaker 2: getting his money, that would have been like some real fireworks,

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Speaker 2: like amazing if you have quit in a huff last night,

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Speaker 2: who knows. But they voted in favor of him getting

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Speaker 2: his money, so he's going to stay. And then I

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Speaker 2: sort of thought they would vote against moving to Texas

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Speaker 2: because my impression was that institutional shareholders like the predictability

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Speaker 2: and protections of Delaware law, and that Elon Musk being

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Speaker 2: kind of a whimsical dude, they thought it would be

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Speaker 2: nice to have a court that would rain him in.

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Speaker 2: But no more shareholders voted to move to Texas than

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Speaker 2: voted for his pay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean and seventy two percent voted for

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Speaker 1: his pay, So the support for the movie to Texas

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Speaker 1: was broad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is all driven by the fact that

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Speaker 2: earlier this year a Delaware court struck down that twenty

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Speaker 2: eighteen pay package that he got. Right, So in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 2: Tesla gave him a bunch of options that if he

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Speaker 2: hit some very ambitious milestones, he'd get you know, fifty

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Speaker 2: six billion dollars. He hit all the milestones, he got

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Speaker 2: all the options. A shareholder sued, saying that like the

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Speaker 2: process of paying him was too conflicted, And earlier this year,

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Speaker 2: a Delaware court said, we agree, we're taking back the options.

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Speaker 2: And so Tesla is voting to give him back the

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Speaker 2: options and to get out of Delaware because they don't

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Speaker 2: like that. And I remember when I wrote about the

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Speaker 2: court decision earlier this year, I was like, this seems

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Speaker 2: kind of wrong, right, Like I'm not like a you know,

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Speaker 2: devoted Elon Musk fan here, but like the shareholders voted

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Speaker 2: to give him the money. The court decided that the

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Speaker 2: vote wasn't fully informed, but it was pretty informed, like

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Speaker 2: they knew how much money they were giving him, and

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Speaker 2: like what the targets were, and he hit the targets

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Speaker 2: and they were happy. So it struck me as kind

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Speaker 2: of a weird decision. It might have been in the law,

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Speaker 2: but it was protective of shareholders in a way that

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Speaker 2: like the shareholders clearly didn't want, right, Like, the shareholders

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Speaker 2: got the benefit of their bargain, which was Elon Musk

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Speaker 2: took the company to six hundred and fifty billion dollars,

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Speaker 2: and this court decision seemed to kind of interfere in

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Speaker 2: the relationship between the company and its shareholders. And I

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Speaker 2: think that's what the vote last night says, right, like,

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Speaker 2: not only did the shareholders vote to bring back the

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Speaker 2: pay bagage, but they also said, yeah, we think that,

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Speaker 2: like this Delaware decision was wrong and we now reject

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Speaker 2: Delaware law, which I think is kind of an interesting outcome, right, Like, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Tessa is a weird company. It's got a weird CEO

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Speaker 2: and a weird relationship with him, and it's got a

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Speaker 2: lot of retail shareholders who are maybe more inclined to

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Speaker 2: vote for like a populace to move to Texas than

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Speaker 2: like the average institutional shareholders. But a lot of institutional

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Speaker 2: shareholders voted to move to Texas, and like iss the

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Speaker 2: proxy advisor said, yeah, you should vote to move to Texas.

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Speaker 2: So I'm interested to see going forward, will other companies

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Speaker 2: copy this, because like I would have thought that a

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Speaker 2: lot of companies would say, I would like to have

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Speaker 2: a little bit less shareholder protection and a little bit

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Speaker 2: more freehand for the board and the CEO. But if

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Speaker 2: I actually try to do that, my shareholders will say no. No,

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Speaker 2: we want the protections. We see you trying to get

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Speaker 2: away from a sort of strict corporate law, and we're

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Speaker 2: going to vote against that. But now the shareolders votedn't

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Speaker 2: for it at Tesla. I don't know are other companies

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Speaker 2: going to follow along.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it'll be interesting to see what this means

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Speaker 1: for Texas. Obviously, the business courts in Delaware are extremely

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Speaker 1: well established. Comparatively, Texas is not exactly there, so I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe we'll get some precedents sent there. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, you made the point in your sort of

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Speaker 1: walk up column that if you think about the reasons

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Speaker 1: why the twenty eighteen pay package was voided by that

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Speaker 1: Delaware judge, there was this idea that the conflicts of

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Speaker 1: interest in the board and other details weren't properly disclosed

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Speaker 1: and well known. And I feel like with this vote,

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Speaker 1: obviously everything's out in the open.

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Speaker 2: So I think that I read yesterday is that, like,

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Speaker 2: so the judge found that in twenty eighteen the board

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Speaker 2: was sort of in the pocket of Elon Musk, and

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Speaker 2: the proxy didn't fully disclose all of that, right, and

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Speaker 2: so this this year, this vote, the proxy just discloses

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Speaker 2: the judge's entire opinion, like it's attached to the back.

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Speaker 2: So if you're interested to know what conflicts you know,

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Speaker 2: were involved in the twenty eighteen decision to pay Elon Musk,

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Speaker 2: you can go read the opinion and get like all

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Speaker 2: of the like the worst case for the conflicts. But

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Speaker 2: I mean the point yesterday that there are new conflicts, right,

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Speaker 2: there's all this stuff about Elon doing AI at other companies,

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Speaker 2: if at his other companies, if he doesn't get his

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Speaker 2: money at Tesla. Earlier this year, Elan Musk asking for

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Speaker 2: another pay package. This is back when he still had

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Speaker 2: these options before the judge took them away. He asked

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Speaker 2: for another big pay package to get his stock ownership

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Speaker 2: up at Tesla, and he said, if I don't get

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Speaker 2: another big pay package, I won't be able to build

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Speaker 2: AI at Tesla. There's that reporting about how there were

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Speaker 2: like some in Vidio chips that were ear marked for

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Speaker 2: Tesla that he called up in video and said no,

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Speaker 2: that sent them to X and said is you know Twitter.

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Speaker 2: So there's all this stuff about his conflicts of interest,

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Speaker 2: his threats, his like you know, demands for new compensation.

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Speaker 2: All this stuff is not really addressed in the in

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Speaker 2: the current Tesla proxy and like, I don't know. If

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Speaker 2: I were a disgruntled shareholder, I'd be writing another lot

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Speaker 2: suit being like, well there's more stuff you didn't disclose.

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Speaker 2: But that said, like you know, as I said, like,

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Speaker 2: I think that the meaning of last night's vote is

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Speaker 2: that Delaware's interference here is wrong and not what shareholders

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Speaker 2: want and not what is good for shareholders.

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Speaker 1: So I do wonder what was on the mind of

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Speaker 1: the large retail shareholder base. Not to speak of them

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Speaker 1: all as a monolist, but I mean, in many ways,

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Speaker 1: this was just seen as a referendum on Musk and

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Speaker 1: his leadership of the company.

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Speaker 3: And the point has been made.

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Speaker 1: It's very well known that the retail shareholders of Tesla

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Speaker 1: love Elon Musk. They're there because they love Elon Musk.

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Speaker 2: Tesla has a much more retail shareholder based than a

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Speaker 2: lot of companies, but like almost half institutional, and those

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Speaker 2: people voted pretty strongly in favor of moving to Texas

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Speaker 2: and also in favor of the pay more for Texas

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Speaker 2: than for the pey. It's an impressive outcome for him.

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Speaker 2: A month ago, like he was clearly focused on his

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Speaker 2: AI stuff at other companies, and five months ago he

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Speaker 2: was asking for more money from Tesla. I wonder if

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Speaker 2: this traumatic experience has brought them closer together so that

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Speaker 2: now he will spend more time on Tesla and not

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Speaker 2: demand more money, or if it's like after winning the

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Speaker 2: vote this week, he will go back to messing around

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Speaker 2: with Xai and ignoring Tesla. I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I kind of lean towards the ladder, but what do

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Speaker 1: I know?

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Speaker 3: But I will say.

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Speaker 2: Too, he's a short attention spatter. I think he's going

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Speaker 2: to go do something else next week.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very strong bare case like that doesn't

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Speaker 1: even though we're past the vote, seventy two percent voted

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Speaker 1: for the pay package, it doesn't fix the problem of

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Speaker 1: Musk is distracted. It seems like he has more fun

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Speaker 1: things going on than Tesla struggles right now, and you've

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Speaker 1: seen all of these big.

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Speaker 3: Tesla bulls come out.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about Dan Ives at Webbush saying this removes

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Speaker 1: a huge overhang for the stock, Tesla market cap to

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Speaker 1: a trillion dollars. I don't necessarily know if that's the case.

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Speaker 2: I don't think Elon being distracted is necessarily a bare case.

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Speaker 2: I think the counter argument is space Ax, where he

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to have a ton of day to day involvement.

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Speaker 2: There's a professional team running it and it's very successful.

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Speaker 2: But also it's got the Elon Musk halo, which helps

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Speaker 2: it like raise money and sort of be high profile.

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Speaker 2: You could tell a similar story about a Tesla where

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Speaker 2: like some team of managers run it as a competent

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Speaker 2: car company without doing weird stuff, and Elon Musk remains

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Speaker 2: the CEO and biggest shareholder and sort of figurehead, such

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Speaker 2: that it has a high stock market valuation and can

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Speaker 2: raise money from retail investors and it's just like always

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Speaker 2: in the news. That's not the worst outcome for Tesla.

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Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't know that having him in

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Speaker 2: the day to day design process for the cars is

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Speaker 2: super additive. Like I don't know, everyone seems to think

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Speaker 2: the cyber truck is really ugly and that's clearly his baby,

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Speaker 2: So maybe like a distracted but happy Elon is the

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Speaker 2: kind of best outcome for Tesla.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm just thinking about again, like the fundamentals of

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Speaker 1: the EV industry right now, it feels like every single

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Speaker 1: automaker has I'm exaggerating, but has skilled back EV production.

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Speaker 1: There's this big leading into high where it seems like

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Speaker 1: the American driver is also going. Tesla's never going to

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Speaker 1: make a hybrid. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

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Speaker 2: But it's not. With Elon paying more attention to it

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Speaker 2: is not going to make it make a hybrid.

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Speaker 1: True, true, I don't know. I mean SpaceX is a

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Speaker 1: good example, a good counterweight, because it seems like cracking

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Speaker 1: the private space industry would be harder than cracking the

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Speaker 1: EV industry. So and SpaceX did that, so maybe maybe

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Speaker 1: things will.

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Speaker 3: Be fine at Tesla.

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Speaker 1: I guess the point that I'm making is that I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed all of these automaker chief executives.

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Speaker 3: I'm talking to the Kia.

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Speaker 1: COO in like two hours. Like the EV market is

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Speaker 1: in a storm right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like the governance is sort of like unrelated to

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Speaker 2: that much. Elon Musk is not going to fix the

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Speaker 2: EV market. And I don't know. I mean, like you

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Speaker 2: can tell the story that like the EV market is

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Speaker 2: in America is partly politicized, and like that slows down

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Speaker 2: adoption and Elon Musk could help you know deeput it

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Speaker 2: hiss has EV adoption or politicize it the other way.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know, I don't really see that, Like

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Speaker 2: I just I think that at this point, Tesla the

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Speaker 2: company faces the same headwinds as every other you know,

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Speaker 2: EV manufacturer, except that it is only an EV manufacturer,

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Speaker 2: And Tesla the stock has just the sort of vague

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Speaker 2: halo effect of like it's the one public way to

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Speaker 2: invest in Elon Musk, and so it trades at a

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Speaker 2: premium because if you like Elon Musk's whole stick, and

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Speaker 2: you don't care much about EV's, but you're just like,

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Speaker 2: how do I buy like the Elon Musk thing? The

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Speaker 2: only way to do it as a public investor is

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Speaker 2: to buy Tesla stock, And so it trades on that.

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Speaker 2: And you know what particular parts of the Elon Musk

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Speaker 2: empire are conducted in Tesla as opposed to at his

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Speaker 2: private companies, Like doesn't necessarily matter that much for the

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Speaker 2: for the price of the stock.

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Speaker 1: I'm more thinking of, like not him making good decisions

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Speaker 1: for Tesla, but him stopping good decisions that could be

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Speaker 1: made at Tesla. Like you think about him, what firing

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Speaker 1: the Supercharger team and then rehiring a bunch of them

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Speaker 1: that wasn't great, Like wavering on plans for a much

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Speaker 1: cheaper ev model that wasn't great. That did shake a

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Speaker 1: lot of even the biggest Tesla bowls conviction in the stock.

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Speaker 1: And then I don't know, the Robotaxi dreams seemed to

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Speaker 1: be and the cyber truck too seemed to be like

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Speaker 1: an expensive waste of money.

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Speaker 2: We could have done this on yesterday, is the.

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Speaker 3: Thing, like, yeah, we probably should have.

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Speaker 2: We thought that there would be like late breaking news,

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Speaker 2: but in fact there was early breaking news, and then

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Speaker 2: it turned out to be true. By the way, I

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Speaker 2: would have been so excited, like the outcome, I was

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Speaker 2: really rooting for it. Once he tweeted yesterday Thursday. Once

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Speaker 2: he tweeted on Thursday that that he had won the vote,

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Speaker 2: obviously the outcome I was reading for is that he

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Speaker 2: had lost the vote. I was gonna get sued, but

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Speaker 2: didn't come to pass. The tweet was true.

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Speaker 4: That would have fit delicious.

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Speaker 1: And now we're back from the ad break we heard

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Speaker 1: from our future selves. I think I said last week

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Speaker 1: that we're really learning that time is a concept, and

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Speaker 1: we're doing that again because now it's you and I

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Speaker 1: talking on a Thursday afternoon.

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Speaker 2: We have traveled back in time to Thursday afternoon. It

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Speaker 2: was nice Thursday after Again, here we.

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Speaker 3: Are and we traveled back in time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, why live in a Friday when you can live

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Speaker 1: in a perpetual Thursday.

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Speaker 2: So it's the this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely let's talk about sky Dance and Paramount and the

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Speaker 1: deal that will never.

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Speaker 3: Be question Mark.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty wild.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have talked about it once on this I

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Speaker 1: forget what we said, but now we're sort of talking

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Speaker 1: about we're talking about it's obituary because no, not yet,

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Speaker 1: at least, this deal's obituary because National Amusement read Sherry

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Speaker 1: Redstone stopped the deal.

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Speaker 3: It's not going to happen with sky Dance at least.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I love it. I love it. It's such a

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Speaker 2: complicated deal because of a very simple thing, which is

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Speaker 2: that so jarriets that Amusements. National Amusements owns some movie

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Speaker 2: theaters and also a block of Paramount stock. Paramount is

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Speaker 2: like an eight billion dollar public company has a lot

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Speaker 2: of interesting, you know, TV and movie assets, and people

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Speaker 2: want to buy it, and Shari Redstone, who inherited it

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Speaker 2: from her father, seems to want to sell it. Although

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Speaker 2: no one's really sure. And the thing about National Amusements

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Speaker 2: is that it owns around five percent of Paramount's stock,

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Speaker 2: but it owns most of the voting stock. Most of

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Speaker 2: the Paramount stock doesn't vote, so Shary Redstone, although she

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Speaker 2: has like a fairly small economic interest in Paramount, has

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Speaker 2: voting control of her Paramount. So that means anyone who

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Speaker 2: wants to buy Paramount has to get her approval because

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Speaker 2: she controls the vote even though she doesn't have that

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Speaker 2: much stock. But it also means that like anyone who

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Speaker 2: wants to deal with her, you know, has to pay

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Speaker 2: her off at a premium. And then the rest of

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Speaker 2: the Paramount shareholders, if they don't get the same deal,

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Speaker 2: are going to complain. And that's the problem with doing

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Speaker 2: a deal here. And it sort of looked like some

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Speaker 2: I wanted to find a way to overcome that problem,

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Speaker 2: and nobody did, and the di'll just fell apart.

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Speaker 1: It fell apart really quickly too, And it is an

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Speaker 1: incredible end because, first of all, this is something that

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Speaker 1: Cherry Redstone originally was campaigning for for months, and Ellison

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Speaker 1: and sky Dance did switch it around a lot and

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Speaker 1: tried to make this work and revise their offer a

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Speaker 1: bunch of times, and then just this week it fell apart,

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Speaker 1: and there's been a lot of different reporting as to why.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people familiar with the matter have commented

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Speaker 1: on this to different outlets. The Wall Street Journal I

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Speaker 1: found this explanation satisfying that basically they reported that she

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Speaker 1: feared potential shareholder litigation over a deal that her critics

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Speaker 1: said would disadvantage ordinary investors in Paramount. And this seems

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Speaker 1: key legal fees that might eat into her family's fortune.

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Speaker 1: That would make sense when you.

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Speaker 2: Say she was advocating for this deal and then it

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Speaker 2: fell apart really rapidly. I think that what happened is

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Speaker 2: that originally Skydance to a shi Redstone and said, we

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Speaker 2: want to do a deal with you where we give

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Speaker 2: you money for National Amusements, and then we simultaneously negotiate

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Speaker 2: a deal with Paramount so that like when we acquire

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Speaker 2: National Amusements, we end up in control of Paramount and

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Speaker 2: we can sort of do the merger that we want

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Speaker 2: with Paramount. And Shah Redstone is, oh, yeah, it sounds good,

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Speaker 2: and they offered to pay her a lot of money

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Speaker 2: for her National Amusements take. But then over time, as

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Speaker 2: they negotiated with the board. The Board of Paramount wanted

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Speaker 2: more stuff for the regular public shareholders. Like they said,

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Speaker 2: if you just give Shay Redstone all this money and

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Speaker 2: don't give anything to the regular shaholders, one, that's going

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Speaker 2: to look bad. It's going to be bad for our

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Speaker 2: fiduciary duties as a board to protect the public shareolders.

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Speaker 2: But then also like, we'll get sued. You'll get sued.

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Speaker 2: Everyone gets sued. So what we need to do is

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Speaker 2: strike a better deal for the public shareholders, and sky

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Speaker 2: Dances like, sure, yeah, we can do that. We can

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Speaker 2: take some of the money we're gonna give to the

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Speaker 2: Shay Redstone and give it to the public shareholders instead,

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Speaker 2: and then everyone will be happier, except that then Shah

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Speaker 2: Redstone wasn't happier because they're taking money from her and

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Speaker 2: giving it to the shareolders. So I think part of

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Speaker 2: why the deal fell apart is because it's almost impossible

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Speaker 2: to like just accomplish this, to like do a deal

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Speaker 2: that is good for Shih Edstone and also doesn't get

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Speaker 2: you sued by shareholders. And I think she eventually concluded

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Speaker 2: that she was going to get sued by shaholders and

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Speaker 2: it wasn't worth it. But also they did try to

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Speaker 2: accomplish it, but that meant taking money away from her

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Speaker 2: part of the deal, and that made her less inclined

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Speaker 2: to do it. Right, if she was getting all the money,

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Speaker 2: she could pay the legal fees. But if she's getting

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Speaker 2: less of the money, then like ah, she's thills us

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Speaker 2: to pay the legal fees. She doesn't want to do

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Speaker 2: the deal.

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Speaker 1: It almost feels like a Golden Shar's situation, which doesn't

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Speaker 1: really exist in America, but it exists more formally in

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Speaker 1: the UK and increasingly in China.

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Speaker 4: And it just.

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Speaker 1: Seems impossible to have good governance in this type of situation.

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Speaker 2: This company has always sort of had famously bad governance.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like, the situation is just bad governance, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, someone who inherited the company and has like

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Speaker 2: a fairly small minority economic interest in it, but who

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Speaker 2: has complete voting control and can can sort of block

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Speaker 2: any deal she doesn't like is an unusual situation. And

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Speaker 2: because it is a big public media company, it has

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Speaker 2: like a fairly independent board of directors, or it has

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Speaker 2: had fairly dependent board of directors sometimes who have gotten

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Speaker 2: in fights with shire Redstone and have tried to like

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Speaker 2: take away her voting control. And even now, you know,

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Speaker 2: like I think the impression is that some members of

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Speaker 2: the board were the ones sort of saying to Shay, like,

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Speaker 2: this deal is not going to work. You're gonna get sued.

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Speaker 2: It's not sufficiently you know, detective of minority shoulders. The

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Speaker 2: other thing is like shire Redstone is worried about getting sued.

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Speaker 2: One thing that could potentially help is like asking the

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Speaker 2: other shareholders to vote to approve the deal. So most

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Speaker 2: apparent Stock doesn't have any voting rights, and so it's

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Speaker 2: just like, what if the board agrees to share, I

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Speaker 2: can just share Redstone can just ratify. But she was

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Speaker 2: thinking about conditioning the merger on the majority of the

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Speaker 2: non voting shareholders, you know, holding a vote and having

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Speaker 2: them vote to approve it, because then if they if

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Speaker 2: they approve, that she'd be less likely to get sued.

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Speaker 2: But my understanding is that Skidance didn't like that idea

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Speaker 2: because they're like, you know, we're giving you this money,

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Speaker 2: want to actually have a deal. We don't want to

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Speaker 2: have to worry about the non voting shareholders turning it down.

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Speaker 3: Well, they have to do something.

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Speaker 1: This is a company in a struggling industry with enormous

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Speaker 1: amounts of debt. But Matt, I have good news. The

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Speaker 1: good news is that in a moment like this, when

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Speaker 1: your searching eyes are looking for the CEO, the good

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Speaker 1: news is that there's not one CEO. There's three CEOs

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Speaker 1: in this situation.

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Speaker 2: I think when we last talked about this situation said

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Speaker 2: something like having three CEOs is really a sign that

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Speaker 2: you're going to do a deal really soon, because you

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Speaker 2: can't just run the company with three cos. But now

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Speaker 2: here they are. I've got three CEOs.

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Speaker 1: And I know I love it.

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Speaker 2: There are some rivers that are going to replace those

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Speaker 2: three CEOs with a fourth, different CEO, but he knows.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's sort of this monolith just called the Office

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Speaker 1: of the CEO, which is incredible and definitely at the

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Speaker 1: time it was like, Okay, this is just a band aid,

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Speaker 1: weird situation, holding pattern until a deal is done, and

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Speaker 1: maybe it'll go back to being a more typical structure.

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Speaker 1: But for right now, they have three CEOs and apparently

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Speaker 1: it has a plan for going forward. The Office of

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Speaker 1: the CEO. CNBC obtained a memo that they released on Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: saying that they're going to remain open to exploring strategic

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Speaker 1: alternatives that create value for shareholders. They also said that

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Speaker 1: they're going to continue to focus on executing the strategic

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Speaker 1: plan that they unveiled in the last couple weeks, so

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Speaker 1: we'll see.

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Speaker 2: I love them, they're fighting for their jobs.

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Speaker 1: They're really fighting, but again, they need to do something.

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Speaker 1: In one of the reports, there's just been so much

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Speaker 1: on this, but apparently a special committee of directors recommended

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Speaker 1: that Paramount could not continue as a standalone business. So

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Speaker 1: something needs to get done here. And then Moody's was

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Speaker 1: out this week warning and this was prior to the

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Speaker 1: collapse that unless there's some sort of strategic transaction that

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Speaker 1: comes along with cost cutting opportunities, basically they're going to

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Speaker 1: get downgraded as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a good situation. The impression I get

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Speaker 2: is that this deal is pretty dead. There was another suitor,

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Speaker 2: right Sony and Apollo. We're looking at the company, and

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Speaker 2: the deal seems to have faded away because in part,

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Speaker 2: I think because they were never really in with Sherry

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Speaker 2: Redstone and she, you know, has the controlling vote. So

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Speaker 2: it's a little unclear what happens next.

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Speaker 1: And also in deal talk there's Edgar.

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Speaker 2: Edgar who's like talking about buying National Amusements.

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Speaker 4: I think, yeah.

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Speaker 2: The impression that I get is that as this deal collapses,

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Speaker 2: the next plan, besides like finding out who the CEO is,

438
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 2: the next plan is for Shari Redstone to think about

439
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,240
Speaker 2: selling National Amusements is just like a single thing. So

440
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,119
Speaker 2: she would just sell National Amusements and then whoever buys

441
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 2: it it would be their problem to deal with like

442
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,159
Speaker 2: the weird governance structure at Paramount and to try to

443
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 2: find a way to impose their will on Paramount, and

444
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 2: like you know, appointed your CEO to take control of

445
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 2: Paramount and deal with the minority shareholders and everything else.

446
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,160
Speaker 2: That just wouldn't be her problem. She would just sell

447
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 2: National Amusements and then the new person would step into

448
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,440
Speaker 2: her shoes and figure it all out. One reader email

449
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 2: to suggest a really good trade, which is that she

450
00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 2: should sell National Amusements to AMC, which one's a movie

451
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 2: theater chain and two keeps raising money from Memestock investments,

452
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,160
Speaker 2: and then AMC could sell the Paramounts shares to sky

453
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 2: Dance and everyone could be better off. I don't know

454
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 2: if that's a viable altern that's.

455
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 3: A pretty good idea.

456
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 2: It's pretty good. We've had an anti trust with with AMC.

457
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 2: I don't know.

458
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 1: There was one selsid note that suggested this was from

459
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 1: Luke Capital, that Warner Brothers Discovery should buy it. This

460
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: hasn't been proposed, they haven't shown any interest. But then

461
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 1: they also said that that's probably not going to happen

462
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: under the current administration. And also you need to see

463
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: Paramount shares go down much more more than they already

464
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: have for it to even be palatable. I just want

465
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,719
Speaker 1: to read this from Walls Fargo. I mean, first of all,

466
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Intelligence was out with a note saying that Paramount

467
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 1: is probably in a weaker position than it was six

468
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 1: months ago before this dragged out M and a process.

469
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 2: That's always true. It's always bad to do an M

470
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 2: and a process that hope people walk away. Although here

471
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 2: it's not like it fell apart in due diligence. It's

472
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 2: like it fell apart in weird governance.

473
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, weird governance. But Will's Fargo. Then said the analyst

474
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 1: Stephen K. Hill, Miss Redstone has created a legacy of

475
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,480
Speaker 1: equity value destruction and this should overhang Paramount's valuation. Given

476
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: her unpredictability, this will add to the long shadow over

477
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: Paramount as yet another misstep. The last six months have

478
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,400
Speaker 1: seen governance weekend, the CEO fired in favor of management

479
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 1: by committee, likely internal disruption to rank and file morale,

480
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: massive golden parachutes, and probably a lot of deal related

481
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 1: expensive So Stephen Cahill from Wells Fargo not holding back.

482
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: A lot of companies in recent years have gone public

483
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 2: with supervoting stock, and there's always this rationale of like,

484
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 2: there's this brilliant visionary founder who runs the company for

485
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 2: a sort of like long term social purpose and has

486
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: not just beholden to the whims of the short term

487
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 2: equity markets, and we want to preserve that, and so

488
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 2: the founder shares need to have supervoting rights, and that's

489
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 2: really better governance and better like value creation for the

490
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 2: long term for public shaolders then letting every share have

491
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 2: one vote. And like this is the sort of degenerate

492
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,119
Speaker 2: final case of that, right, Like this is a person

493
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,959
Speaker 2: who's not this visionary, but who just inherited the shares

494
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 2: from the from like the visionary put the company together,

495
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 2: and she doesn't own forty percent of the company shows

496
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 2: five percent of the economics, and her incentives are just

497
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 2: very different from those of other shareholders, and she seems

498
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 2: to be making choices that are not great for other shareolders.

499
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: And it's just hard for anyone to kind of come

500
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 2: in and fix it because she controls all the votes.

501
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 3: Do you want to talk about some later?

502
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 2: Fare well Spargo, man, This was.

503
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,400
Speaker 1: An incredible scoot by a Bloomberg News's handle of it.

504
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: It's so good. It's so good.

505
00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 1: Wells Fargo fires over a dozen for quote simulation of

506
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: keyboard activity.

507
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: Matt, I assume they were working from home. Well, it's

508
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 2: untirely clear, like she reported this space on like a

509
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: FINRA filing that Wells Fargo did. What it sounds like

510
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 2: is that they were working from home. And so these

511
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 2: are like people in wealth management and investment management. They

512
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 2: were working from home, and Wells Fargo was monitoring them

513
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 2: and making sure that they weren't just like going to

514
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 2: the pool all day by installing some sort of tracking

515
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: software in their computer that made sure that they were

516
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 2: like typing at least once every five minutes, or moving

517
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: their mouse or whatever. And these people acquired devices apparently

518
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: called mouse jigglers. I picture like the you know, like

519
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 2: the bird with water in it that like bobs up

520
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: and down and.

521
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: Pecks the keys like the Homer Simpson.

522
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Homer Simpson bird, exactly right. And so like

523
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 2: someone is hitting a key every four minutes so that

524
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 2: the system keeps them lied on while they go off

525
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 2: and run errands or whatever. And Wills Fargo somehow found

526
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 2: out and fired them all saying we don't, you know,

527
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: accept any unethical behavior.

528
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's just amazing.

529
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: Reading directly from the filing, apparently the staffers, all of

530
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: whom are in the firm's wealth and Investment management unit,

531
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: were quote discharged after review of allegations involving simulation of

532
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: keyboard activity creating impression of active work. My first reaction was,

533
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: if we're talking about wealth managers, I feel like they

534
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: should be alcolfing anyway. And then also, the term mouse

535
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: jiggler really sounds like an insult, but it is a

536
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: real device and you can buy it for twenty dollars

537
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: from Amazon.

538
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you that. Like, so one, if

539
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: they're wealth managers, they should be out on the golf course,

540
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 2: not at the keyboard. But two, like just in general,

541
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 2: making sure that you're typing all the time is like

542
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: the worst way to measure productivity and contributions of like

543
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 2: a financial professional. Right. It's like that can't be what

544
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: the job is about. Right. The job can't be like

545
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 2: how many keys do you hit in a minute? Right?

546
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: There has to be some other form of value add there,

547
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: and Wellsvarrio is measuring like the sort of like lowest

548
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: thing that could measure, which is just are you hitting

549
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 2: the keys? I mean, what I find most amazing about

550
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: this whole situation is that like Wells Fargo has been

551
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 2: here before in like much more egregious ways, which is

552
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 2: that they had like a famous scandal in twenty sixteen

553
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 2: where they set up millions of fake accounts because like

554
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 2: they had all the like branch employees were basically held

555
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 2: to a standard of like that to open like eight

556
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: different products today, Right, So if you came in to

557
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: open a check on account, they'd be like, hey, do

558
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: you want to add online checking? Do you want to

559
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: add a credit card? Do you want to add a mortgage?

560
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: Do you want to add a saving Because you know,

561
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 2: if they wanted to open eight different products every day,

562
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: and so a lot of people realizing how hard that was. Instead,

563
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 2: we're just doing it like illicitly. By they'd open a

564
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: checking out for someone and just slipped them a credit

565
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: card without them knowing about it, And I love that.

566
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: It's like eight years later, Wells Fargo still seems to

567
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 2: have this culture of like one using these very crude

568
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 2: metrics to manage its employees' performance, and two having the

569
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: employees like game them in egregious ways.

570
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty painful.

571
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: I mean you think about specifically the wealth management unit,

572
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: and this has been a focus for the bank, trying

573
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: to beef up their wealth management is it feels like

574
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: a lot of the big banks are and this probably

575
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: doesn't hurt them, but it is just embarrassing and it

576
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: feels like they haven't quite recovered from that twenty sixteen episode.

577
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 2: People talk about like bank culture, and it really like

578
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 2: all of these stories paying such a bad picture of

579
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 2: Wells Fargo's culture. There's another story a few years ago

580
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: where Wells fire fired a bunch of investment bankers for

581
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: expensing seamless too early. Yeah, you know, like you could

582
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 2: order dinner if you stay past eight or whatever, and

583
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: people were ordering dinner at like six point fifteen and

584
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 2: then like altering the receipts so that it looked like

585
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: they stayed later.

586
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 3: It's like, that's pretty bad.

587
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: All of this stuff. It's like the most petty micro

588
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 2: management of their people and the most like cynical gaming

589
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 2: of that micro management.

590
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel in some ways like a naive, innocent

591
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: person because I hear that and I'm like, oh my god,

592
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: you can get fired for that, And I think about

593
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: my own life. I get a card to the office

594
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: because I get in at six am, but sometimes I

595
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: get in at six oh six am and not six am,

596
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,199
Speaker 1: and I wonder if I'm going to get fired for

597
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: expensing my uber But altering your receipts is a different

598
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: level that I wouldn't do.

599
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: Right, Like, the thing is, you're not going to get

600
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: fired because like, well I shouldn't say that, Like.

601
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 3: No, say it. Put it in the record.

602
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 2: Both you and our employer take more intelligent, long term

603
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: view of what's going on, and like everyone understands that

604
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: you're acting in good faith and that the program exists

605
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 2: to encourage you to do the good work that you do. Right,

606
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 2: And then there's the other thing where it's like nickel

607
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: and diming people and like everyone is kind of doing

608
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: the minimum and like trying to check the boxes. Yeah,

609
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: that leads to bad outcomes.

610
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,239
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of things that made me nervous, I was

611
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: searching on Amazon for some of these mouse jigglers on

612
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: my work desk stot and let me let me say

613
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: for the company right now. It was for research for

614
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 1: this podcast specifically, but I found one cost twenty two

615
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: dollars and ninety nine cents. That price is actually down

616
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: twenty three percent, but more than a thousand of them

617
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: have been bought in the last month, at least according

618
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: to Amazon bills, itself is undetectable. And again, being an

619
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: innocent person, I thought that not a lot of people

620
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: did this, But just looking at how frequently people are

621
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: buying mouse jigglers on Amazon, apparently it's still hot. People

622
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: are still doing this.

623
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: I am very interested in the cat and mouse game,

624
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: no pun intended, uh oo, how people are catching these

625
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: uncatchable mass jigglers right, Like someone is like building the

626
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: algorithms that like detect suspiciously regular mass jigling and like

627
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: report it to HR.

628
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: Or do you know, well to that point, can I

629
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: read you some of the reviews? I thought these were

630
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: really illuminating. Oh yeah, this is a five star review

631
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: from June one so recently. They said that it was

632
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: a great little device. But if you're being monitored by

633
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: your employer, it only moves back and forth. So if

634
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: they can see your screen and you want to use

635
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: this to be able to walk away, I would be careful.

636
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: They would clearly be able to see you're not there.

637
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: And then here's a four star review from March. This

638
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: person wrote, at least with my mouse, it moves the

639
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: cursor all the way across the screen. So if you're

640
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: being monitored by management, this would not look at all natural.

641
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: These are all Wells Fargo employees, by the way, just kidding,

642
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: that's a.

643
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: Joke, right. I sort of assumed that there was some

644
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: sort of like algorithmic tracking of like there's some like

645
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: a computer system make sure that you're typing every at least,

646
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 2: you know, every once in a while. But like the

647
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: idea that the managers just have like a screen up

648
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: with like six of their employees' screens and they just

649
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: watch it all day to make sure that workers are

650
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: working is like even more dystopian than what I thought.

651
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: Like that's really grim, Like what why ken't the manager

652
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: do some work instead of just monitoring their employees screens.

653
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: Maybe that's someone's whole job, you know, in this bright

654
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: new world that we live in. You're the vice president

655
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: of screen monitoring at.

656
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Speaker 2: Wellston right, and then like you get like a big

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Speaker 2: win when you fired twelve people for installing mat streets.

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Speaker 2: You're like, look, I've added so much value as the

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Speaker 2: screen monitoring vice president because I've caught the people who

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Speaker 2: were just master vision instead of really moving their mass.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if that works from home? Do you need

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Speaker 1: to be in the office to do that.

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Speaker 2: We're going to command center of like eight screens. And

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Speaker 2: that was the Money Stuff Podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm Matt Levian and I'm Katie Greifeld.

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Speaker 2: You can find my work by subscribing to the Money

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00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 2: Stuff newsletter on Bloomberg dot com.

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Speaker 1: And you can find me on Bloomberg TV every day

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Speaker 1: between ten to eleven am Eastern.

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Speaker 2: email to Money Pod at Bloomberg dot net ask us

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Speaker 2: a question, or we might answer it on the air.

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Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening

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Speaker 1: right now and leave us a review. It helps more

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Speaker 1: people find the show.

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Speaker 2: The Money Stuff Podcast is produced by Anna Maserakis and

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Speaker 2: Moses and On.

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00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: Our theme music was composed by Blake Maples.

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00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,880
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Speaker 1: Producer, and Stage Bowman is Bloomberg's.

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Speaker 3: Head of podcasts.

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00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to The Money Stuff Podcast. We'll be

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Speaker 2: back next week with more stuff.

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Speaker 4: The Pal