1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the two thousand twelve Toyota Camera. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind? 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: From How Stuff Works dot Com? Hey, welcome to Stuff 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, did you ever watch Tales from 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: the Dark Side back in the day? What do you 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: remember about it? Um? I remember it was creepy tails, 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: and remember my brother and I love stuff like that 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: as well as Tales from the Crypt, so like anything 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: that we could amass of the horror genre, we were there. 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: Of course, Talles from the Crypt you had to have 12 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: HBO access for that. Yes, in our neighbors you have 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: a Harrison's Thank you, Harrison's See. I had to watch 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: it half scrambled, so it was sort of half imagination 15 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: of what was going on with the Tales from the Crypt. 16 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: But then Tails in the Dark Side that came on 17 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: at like three o'clock on a Sunday afternoon or something 18 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: on cable, and that one always creep the heck out 19 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: of it, maybe more so than Tales from the Crips. 20 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: I think Tales from the Crip came later for me 21 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: and and there was always that fun, campy, you know, 22 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: old school classic horror comics motif and all the puns. 23 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: It kind of disarmed you, like right from the get go, 24 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: you knew that you were entering a world where horrible 25 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: things were gonna happen. It was okay because it's just 26 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: the vibe, but tales from the Dark side. The intro 27 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: I remember as being like super creepy because it had 28 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: like this really haunting music that was like bum bum 29 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: bum bum bum bum bump, and then this this really old, 30 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: terrifying narrator would come on and we would talk about 31 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: how how we live in this surface, sunlit world, but 32 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: there's a dark side everything, and that's when these these 33 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: colorful scenes of like rural America suddenly turn negative, like 34 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: photo negative on you. And then the titles come up 35 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: and they melt, and then some dark story begins, and 36 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: sometimes the story was really scary as well. But that 37 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: intro was always great because it was it was just 38 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: setting you up for this reverse side of everything you 39 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: take for granted and think is wholly and normal in 40 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: your life. So for you, it was the psychological aspect 41 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: of it that really sort of arrested your imagination. Yeah, yeah, 42 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: right from the from the get go, because the narrator 43 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: was saying everything you think, there's a reverse side to 44 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: it that's creepy and awful and it will totally rock 45 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: your understanding of reality. Okay, So we're going to attempt 46 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: to do the same thing here. We're going to give 47 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: a photo negative image of creativity the dark side, right, 48 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: because creativity is one of those things that we tend 49 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: to hold up at least, you know, in our society 50 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: and in our lives. We hold up creativity is this wonderful, 51 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,239 Speaker 1: awesome thing and if you've got it, it's the best 52 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: thing in the world, right, I mean, it's it's the 53 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: stuff of art and the movies and music and everything. 54 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: All the media we consume is born out of creativity. 55 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,839 Speaker 1: The jokes you hear somebody tell over dinner born out 56 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: of creativity, the dishes you eat creatively presented to you. 57 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: It's it's the font of everything that you want in 58 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: your life. So how could there be this dark side 59 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: to it? How could the tails from the dark Side 60 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,119 Speaker 1: narrator come in and mess this up for us? Yeah, 61 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: you're right, because there are hundreds of books about creativity 62 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: and how to bolster your creativity. And we've talked about 63 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: it in an evolutionary sense too, that this was important 64 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,679 Speaker 1: to be a creative thinker for our own survival and 65 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: also to attract mates and so on and so forth. 66 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: And we've seen this in nature, we've seen creativity and animals. 67 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, how could it be dark? Well, there's this 68 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: idea that the dark side could emerge because of our 69 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: creative tendencies to be wonderful, fabulous, because essentially, when we're 70 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: being creative, we're creating a kind of lie, right, we 71 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: are altering our reality to a certain degree and telling 72 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: a story about how things are or how they seem. Okay, 73 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: like a fictional novel is essentially a lie about something 74 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: that happened, even at like a finely prepared meal. You know, 75 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't taste like fish, because it's kind of lying 76 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: to you that it's it's not really a dead animal 77 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: that watched up on the shore. It's something else, delightful 78 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: and wonderful. Umn just go down the list of things. 79 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: Any actors performance, it's really convincing. They're kind of lying 80 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: to you because they are putting on a show for you. 81 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: They're pretending to be something there or not Yeah. We've 82 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: even talked about this with language and semantic distance. We've 83 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: talked about when we talk about our cuts of meat, 84 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: we don't necessarily say a hey, i'd love a cow burger, 85 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: I'd love a hamburger. The way that we sort of 86 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: cloak what something means to us or try to portray 87 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: it to another person as something else, and then we 88 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: have all these these different words for lies and different 89 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: shades of lies to like take hyperbole, which I love 90 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: to watch hyperbole and science headlines, particularly space science, and 91 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: I've been on both sides of this. I've also helped 92 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: craft some rather outrageous space headlines before. But it's all 93 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: you can't just you know, because you want people to 94 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 1: see that headline and read the article. So it tends 95 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: to get out of control really quickly, and you get 96 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: you get headlines like mo Ster, black hole gobbles down. 97 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: You know, we we tweak the language enough to where 98 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: we're creating an image of this thing that is not 99 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: the actual scientific content of the article. But that's not lying, 100 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: and nobody argues that it's lying. But but there are 101 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: all these different different levels of dishonesty, even in a 102 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: creative headline on an otherwise scientifically accurate article. Well, it 103 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: requires a novel approach rights draws directly on creativity. And 104 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: so what we're going to talk about today is creativity 105 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: in the sense of, um, you know, could could a 106 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: creative individual be more dishonest than another person? And we're 107 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: going to explore the idea of creativity and madness. We've 108 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: touched on it before. Um, we're going to look at 109 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: mental illness through the lens of creativity. But before jumping 110 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: into all of that, I did want to mention that 111 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: a good example of being an excellent, fabulous but perhaps 112 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: someone who is going beyond the bounds of storytelling facts 113 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: is someone like Jonah Laire, who I think is really 114 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: a great journalists in a sense that he is such 115 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: a good storyteller. And I don't know if anybody has 116 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: heard about this dust up about some of his journalistic practices. 117 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: It started off as a dust up. I think it 118 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: kind of ended up as more of a blow up. 119 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, sort of Adam bomb. Now, he 120 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: had actually written a book called Imagine How Creativity Works, 121 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: and it was withdrawn from the market by Laire's publisher 122 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: when they discovered that he had fabricated some quotations in 123 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: the book, most notably one from Bob Dylan on his 124 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: creative process. And he's worth noting at this point, he's 125 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: already made a name for himself. He's already big news. 126 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: He's been on Radio Lab multiple times at this point. 127 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: I think he'd already been on Colbert. I mean, he's 128 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: he was out there. He's a you know, he's a 129 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: good looking young guy. He's well spoken. He's very much 130 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: in the same vein of the sort of the Eagleman's 131 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: and the Neil deGrasse Tyson's of the world where they're 132 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: they're great at communicating science, both in print and in person. Right. 133 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: And that's what I think is sad about the story, 134 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: because here's someone who's really committed to the story of science, 135 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: and he finds all these different gems and he kind 136 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: of makes this the whole sort of theme of science 137 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: sparkle for people. Um. And he does this because he 138 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: is such a good storyteller. Again, though, the problem is this, 139 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: he's going to be on the boundaries of storytelling and 140 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: he has, you know, dabbled in some plagiarism um as 141 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: well as recycling of his work, and people are are 142 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: sort of awe struck by this, and I think I 143 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: am too, because here's someone who is a Rhodes scholar, 144 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: incredibly smart, and somehow got into this, I guess you 145 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: could say, this vortex of lies that sort of spun 146 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: out of control. And so we want to look at 147 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: that a little bit today. Why would someone jump into 148 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: that scenario when they had all the tools at their 149 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: disposal and all the creativity that they wanted. Why would 150 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: they sort of rationalize this step into the darkness? Yeah, 151 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: because I mean another big story out of the ear 152 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: was the Mike Daisy affair with the whole apple and 153 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: uh Mr Daisy visit the Apple factory, which is part 154 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: of a spoken word piece that he did on This 155 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: American Life. But the ultimate excuse there, whether you buy 156 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: either or not, was that he's a storyteller first that 157 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: sort of found himself wandering into journalistic territory, whereas Joann 158 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: Hlaire was already in the journalistic territory. He was just 159 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: using storytelling a lot to it to his advantage, and 160 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: then it all fell apart from there right almost In 161 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: Layer's instance, you could kind of see him saying it 162 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't be awesome if if Dylan said this, or you know, 163 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: amended his quote with this to make that story even stronger. 164 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: In some ways, I see that with Daisy, But I 165 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: think what's intriguing about both of them is that I 166 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: think we can all relate to this. There have been 167 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: instances in our lives where we maybe took some creative 168 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: license and we distorted the truth. So it's sort of 169 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: interesting to look at why we might do that. Yeah, 170 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: because when Wired actually hired a journalism professor, Charles to 171 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: look into his work for Wired, I found various instances 172 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: of recycling this is right. This is lair recycling, which 173 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: of course is just using bits from one article you 174 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: wrote for another, often for any different employee, getting paid 175 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: twice right. Press release plagiarism, which of course is your 176 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: sent a press release and it it is a write 177 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: up of something that somebody did, and then you're supposed 178 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: to take that information and make it your own to 179 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: gather some other sources, get some quotes, etcetera. But it's 180 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 1: then just taking from the press release. And that's something 181 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: that I guess can sometimes be lost on people who 182 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: aren't actually handling press releases. On one side of the other, 183 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: acquisitions of plagiarism, the quotation issues that we mentioned and 184 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: some factual issues as well. So the errors there that 185 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: were found by this guy, that they ranged from some 186 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: things that some listeners may be surprised to learn that 187 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: that's a problem, because, after all, what's wrong with reusing 188 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: something you've said? We do it every time that we 189 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: tell a joke and it works right, and then you 190 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: maybe tweak it a little but reuse the same joke 191 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: later on. But it's different if somebody is paying you 192 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: for that joke and then you are re selling the 193 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 1: same joke to someone else who thinks it's also bears uniquely. Yeah, 194 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: and I think the problem too is that he was 195 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: looking at something like eighteen different writings that were published online, 196 00:09:58,080 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: and I don't I believe that he just sort of 197 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: cherry picked them. I don't think that he potentially chose 198 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: these ones, and you discovered that fourteen out of the 199 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: eighteen had the recycled content in them. So, um, you know, 200 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: this is not a condemnation of Layer, because again, I 201 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: think this is someone who is incredibly talented, and I 202 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: hope that he bounces back from this. It's just a 203 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: good example of what we're talking about today. And in fact, 204 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: some would actually say that Lair's predicament is really more 205 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: of an indirect result of how things are published these days, 206 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: because back in the day, you know, even twenty years ago, 207 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: the content would have gone through at least five different 208 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: people for you know, fact checkers to editors to make 209 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: sure that that all of that was correct. So in 210 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: some ways we have a much wider scope in which 211 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: we can operate because of the technology available to us. 212 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: And you'll see that across all sorts of fields like accounting, 213 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: there's you know, there's a little bit more margin for Air. 214 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: I guess you could say, right, yeah. And also he 215 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: was obviously a big name, and so when he began 216 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: to fall, a lot of eyes went on to his 217 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: work and picked him to pieces. So you can also 218 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: say that, say that there there are plenty of other 219 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: cases of people committing the same journalistic crimes, if you will, 220 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: out there. They just don't have as many eyes on 221 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 1: what they're doing. All right, So enough of these transgressions, 222 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: let's talk about where it all happens as creativity in 223 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: our brains. Yeah, I guess the best place to start 224 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: is with the old idea of left and right brain, 225 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: and this came out of nineteen seventies. There are various 226 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: studies of split brain patients looking at this idea that 227 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: the right hemisphere of control creativity and that the left 228 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: hemisphere is the seat of logic and mathematics. And also 229 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: everyone loved this. I mean, there's the duality of it 230 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: is is kind of beautiful. There's this star bellied sneeches 231 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: kind of aspect of it too, where it's like, oh, 232 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 1: are you are you part of Team Edward or team 233 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: what's the other team Jacob? Team Jacob? You know, are 234 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: you Team Creatives? You're pretending like you don't know what 235 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: the other team is? I know, yeah, you can't see 236 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: my T shirt. So everyone loved this idea. It was 237 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: so bullet resonated and people like to try to decide 238 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: which team they were on. But since that time, there 239 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: have been a lot more studies into looking at exactly 240 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 1: how the brain works and how the brain works with creativity. 241 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: This whole field in fact of neuro aesthetics, right, which 242 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: is a scientific attempt to understand the human brains aesthetic 243 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: perceptions of art music. Yeah, at the neurological level. Um, 244 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: there's an interesting study from the University of South Carolina, 245 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: and again it just it exploits this idea that it's 246 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: not just a you know, two party system in the brain, 247 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: that it really takes the two halves of the brain 248 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: to tango when it comes to creativity. And Lisa as 249 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,359 Speaker 1: the z A who is the assistant professor of neuroscience, 250 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: and her team scan the brains of architecture students. And 251 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: they did this because obviously architecture students are engaging what 252 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 1: you would say is both sides, right, there's an art 253 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 1: side to it, and then there's also engineering to it. Yeah, 254 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: there's the spatial part of it. So they were showing 255 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: three shapes, a circle, a c in an eight, and 256 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: they were then asked to visualize the images that could 257 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: be made by rearranging those shapes. So this takes a 258 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: little bit of creativity, right, because for example, a face 259 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: could be made with the eight on its side to 260 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: become the eyes. The sea could be a smiling mouth 261 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: or a frown, and then the circle could be a nose. Okay, 262 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: so that requires a little bit of your brain to say, 263 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: oh what, you know, what could I paint with these objects? 264 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: It's interesting when you said those I kind of intentionally 265 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: misheard C. Instead of picturing the letter C, I pictured 266 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: an ocean, and so I imagine like this figure eight 267 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: tower rising out of an ocean, and in the circle 268 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: is an eye at the top of it. That's because 269 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: you're a crazy divergent thinker, which we'll talk about later, okay, 270 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: or my hearing sucks one of the two. Well, yeah, 271 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: that's possible as well. Um, but I also sometimes talked 272 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: really fast, yes, so that could be a problem. But anyway, 273 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: they were then asked to engage in what would be 274 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: a more spatial sort of task, and so they were 275 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: asked to piece together three geometric shapes with their minds 276 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: to see if they formed a square or a rectangle. Now, 277 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: the creative task, even though it was mainly handled by 278 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: the right hemisphere, lit up the left hemisphere hemisphere more 279 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: than the non creative task. And this was really a 280 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: surprise to them because you would think that the spatial reasoning, 281 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: the geometric part of it, would engage less of the 282 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: left side, but in fact they found that even the 283 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: left side was there. Um, that it was more prevalent 284 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: too in the creative side. So again you see that 285 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: it's not just one seat of the brain where creativity 286 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: is occurring. And it's lending again to this idea of 287 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: neuraesthetics that there's a lot more to creativity than we know. 288 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: In effect, duality is kind of a misnomer, especially as 289 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: far as the brain is concerned, that than any kind 290 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: of creative or even engineering task is not one side 291 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: of the other, but both sides working in some degree 292 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: of harmony. Right. And then to add to all of this, 293 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: you have different aspects of what is happening inside of 294 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: the brain affecting how data is being perceived and interpreted. 295 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: And again this is where we have novel ideas being generated. 296 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: So this is when we begin to talk about mental 297 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: illness and creativity, because you know, this is a subject 298 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: that has been explored a lot more like, hey, there's 299 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: that ban go and so creative, but have this unfortunate 300 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: side effect of hallucinations and cutting off his ear and 301 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: so on and so forth. Yeah, I mean, it's the 302 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: idea of the unhinged creative types and old notion, and 303 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: we continue to to carry it along with us. Sometimes 304 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: we use it as a means of forgiving our own 305 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: problems or or to sort of to make sense of 306 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: the catech lives of individuals whose whose lives are illuminated 307 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: by the fame they've a missed. Yeah, and so I 308 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: mean it just here's the thing. Being creative does not 309 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: mean that you are mentally ill, right, What it means 310 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: is that there are some markers that mentally ill people 311 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: have with creative, highly creative people, and then vice versa 312 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: as well. And I mean, certainly just like the average 313 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: person who has some sort of severemental illness, it's not 314 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: gonna translate directly into creative output. And will explore that 315 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: a little more. Again, we're talking about is stimuli and 316 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: the interpretation of that. Here's something that's interesting. High creative 317 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: skills have been shown to be somewhat more common in 318 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: people who have mental illnesses we've talked about. But the 319 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: connection here, they think has to do with the dopamine system. 320 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: Because researchers at the Swedish Medical University Carolinska Institute is 321 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: to it have managed to show that this dopamine system 322 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: and healthy highly creative people is really similar in respects 323 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: to people with schizophrenia. Specifically when we talk about mental illness, 324 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: and it all has to do with the thalamus, which 325 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: is a part of the brain that acts as the 326 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: relay center, filtering information before it reaches the cortex or 327 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: reasoning and cognition occur. So it turns out that people 328 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: who are highly creative and schizophrenic people have fewer dopamine 329 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: receptors in the thalamus than other people. And this is 330 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 1: really important because, uh, again, this is sort of telling 331 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: us about how data comes through our brains and how 332 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: it is interpreted. Now, when I talk about highly creative 333 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: people in this day of what we're talking about are 334 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: healthy individuals who have been tested on divergent psychological tests. 335 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: And this is certain kinds of tests that are looking 336 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: at how you solve things. So it would require a 337 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: novel approach, right, and this is how they sort of 338 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: weed out who's highly creative and who's not in this 339 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: particular study. So the idea is that the fewer D 340 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: two receptors in the thalamus probably means a lower degree 341 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: of signal filtering and then a higher flow of information 342 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: from the thalamus. This is why you see this correlation 343 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 1: between people who are schizophrenic and people who are highly 344 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: creative or highly imaginative, because what you're seeing is again 345 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: a flooding of stimuli to the brain and then this 346 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: idea that you have to sort through it. Right, This 347 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: is similar to what we've talked about in the way 348 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: children perceive the world, the idea that their their brains 349 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: are sponges and it's just stuff just flowing in and 350 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: then they have to make sense of it all. So 351 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: I guess this brings us to the question, then, what's 352 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: going on in the rest of the brains? Right? What 353 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: what do the muggles have going on that that prevents 354 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: them from seeing and creating the magic in the world 355 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: around them or from suffering from severe schizophrenia. Well, I 356 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: mean part of it is that, again, you have so 357 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: much stimulation there and and if you can cherry pick 358 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: from that stimulation, you begin to make bizarre associations because 359 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: you're simply aware of that much stuff in your brain. 360 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: And in fact, it reminds me just you know, a 361 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: little side trip here reminds me of the cognitive psychologists 362 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: Alice and goth Nick when she was talking about infants 363 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: having this lantern awareness versus adults having flashlight awareness, because 364 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: she's saying that infant are far more conscious than adults 365 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: because they're taking in everything and if you look at 366 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: their brains you can see that that, you know, neurotransmitters 367 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: are squirted all over that brain, marinating in it, and 368 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: it allows them to have the neural connections to process 369 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: all of that data. Okay, and so she's made that 370 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: comment before of you know, this is perhaps the reason 371 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: why some creative thinkers um have the breakthroughs that they can, 372 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: because they are sort of holding onto a bit of 373 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: that infant brain in that lantern awareness. Yeah. So, so 374 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: to take us back to our unrealistic caveman examples, you 375 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: have a grown up caveman who has who has completely 376 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: grown up, not creative at all. That he's he's very 377 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: much focused on what's important. Is that a tiger over 378 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: there behind those bushes or is it a gazelle? Am 379 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: I about to be eating? Or am I about to 380 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: score some dinner? Whereas in everything else kind of fades 381 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: into the background, right only focused on what's most important 382 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: to survival at this moment, whereas his friend, who's more 383 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: creatively in Clauden caveman might look over at a tree 384 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,239 Speaker 1: and link himself. I wonder if that tree is a 385 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: woman who was somehow petrified by a god or something, 386 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: because it kind of looks like a woman, and so 387 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: he's staring at this tree, risking consumption by the tiger 388 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: or missing out on a meal, whereas the the hunter 389 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: is focused on what is actually occurring. Hey, you can't 390 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: be uh, you can't be painting little happy trees in 391 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: your mind and that scenario. But but on one level, 392 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: you can sort of say, okay, well, one caveman is 393 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: daydreaming and one is serious about the task at hand. 394 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: But then you can also look at it in terms 395 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: of one has shut off unnecessary stimuli and the other 396 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: one is remaining open to stimuli even if the input 397 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: of said stimuli is not immediately relevant to basic survival. Okay, 398 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: so what you're talking about is a process called latent inhibition. Yeah, 399 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: and uh. University of Tennessee psychology professor Jordan's Peterson says, quote, 400 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: the normal person classifies an object and then forgets about it, 401 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: even though that object is much more complex and interesting 402 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: than he or she thinks. The creative person, by contrast, 403 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: is always open to new possibilities. So again, here's this 404 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: idea that you're able to look at these objects and 405 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: pay more attention to them than your counterpart. Right. It 406 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: also reminds me of vampires. I guess vampires have no 407 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: latent inhibition, because there's the old idea that you could 408 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: leave like something with an intricate weave pattern out for 409 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: or not, and they would have to sit there and 410 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: untangle it, even though the sun is about to come 411 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: up and melt them. Well, in speaking of of of vampires, 412 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: we should talk about how this plays into personality. Because 413 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: there's something called the schizotypical personality. Now this is um 414 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: sort of typified by illuminaries like Albert Einstein or Tesla, 415 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: right um, and it kind of points a little bit 416 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: more to their preoccupations which some people might think are odd. 417 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: Right Um. I'm thinking about Nicola Tesla in his obsession 418 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: and with Well this is more towards the end of 419 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: his life, so there might have been more going on 420 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: with it. But his obsession with a certain pigeon that 421 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: he fell in love with. Whoa yeah, but he fed that, 422 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: he fed her day in and day out and uh, 423 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: and was sort of obsessed with us, just as he 424 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: was obsessed with many of his scientific discoveries and his endeavors. 425 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: But at play, here's this idea that these people may 426 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: be engaging in a kind of more magical reality than 427 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: the rest of us. Yeah, there's an article by Margharita 428 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,959 Speaker 1: Tarakovski in psych Central where she actually goes through some 429 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: of the forums that schizotypical personalities take, and for instance, 430 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: there's magical thinking. There's one possibility, and she points out 431 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: that you had the composer Schumann who believed that Beethoven 432 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: was channeling music to him from beyond the grave. Another 433 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: form that this condition takes unusual perceptional experiences, and she 434 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: draws the analogy here to Dickens belief that he was 435 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: being followed by characters from his novels. That's right, didn't 436 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: he used an umbrella to poke away at the little 437 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: street urchins? Yeah, imaginary street urchins. There you go. And 438 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: then there's also a preference for solitary activities, which obviously 439 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: you see in a lot of creative types. And the 440 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: author here pointed out Emily Dickinson tesla Isaac Newton, you know, 441 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: anybody who likes to shut themselves away and work on something. 442 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: You could also throw a J. D. Salinger, any number 443 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: of authors and artists into that pot. And then finally 444 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: another form of takes his mild paranoia. And there are 445 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: various examples of this where authors, artists, creative types begin 446 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: to have peculiar ideas about what is threatening them in 447 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: the world and where those threats lie. So, this schizotype 448 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: personality is not obviously a full blown schizophrenia disorder. It's 449 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: just someone who is who processes things a little bit 450 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: differently right now. And it's yeah, it's not to the 451 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: point where it's necessarily just really tapping down on your 452 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: ability to function, but it is certainly changing the ways 453 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: in which you function in an otherwise normal situation. Yeah. 454 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: Researchers at Vanderbilt University have actually looked specifically at the 455 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: schizotype to try to figure out how their brains work, 456 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: particularly in conjunction with or i should say, in contrast 457 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: to a schizophrenics brain. And then someone who was quote 458 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: unquote normal, Brad Foley in so he Park, actually published 459 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: their findings in the Journal of Schizophrenia Research. And so 460 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: they looked at these three groups, the control this, the 461 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: schizotypes in the schizophrenics. And in the first experiment, they 462 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: showed research subjects a variety of household objects and they 463 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: asked them to make up new functions for them, and 464 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: the schizotypes were better able to creatively suggest new uses 465 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: for the objects, while the schizophrenics, interestingly enough, and the 466 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: average subjects performed similarly to one another. And so what 467 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: they think is that it's that the schizophrenics were unable 468 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: to generate new uses because their thought processes are very 469 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: often disorganized to the point where they can't be creative 470 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: because they can't get all of their thoughts in one 471 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: coherent place. So the normal person is more again the 472 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: flashlight view of reality, but then the schizophrenic individual, it's 473 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: that lamp view, but the lamp is turned up so 474 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: much that there's just too much information coming at them 475 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: and it's just a dipping around in their mind. It's 476 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: such a chaotic way, right, yeah. Yeah, So well sort 477 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: of like the normal person has the flashlight and the 478 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: schizotype and the schizophrenic have the lantern. But the difference 479 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: is that the schizotype can really pick out the things 480 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: that matter because they can sort of have some of 481 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: that focus and make those connections, whereas you say, there's 482 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: so much going on in the schizophrenic brain that they 483 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: can't really make a coherent story there. So they did 484 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: a second experiment. They are asked to identify uses for 485 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: everyday objects again, but as well, they performed a basic 486 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: control task while the activity in their prefrontal lobes were monitored. 487 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: So they found in these brain scans is that all 488 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 1: groups used both brains for creative tasks. Again, here's this 489 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: idea of both brains being engaged. But the activation of 490 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: the right hemispheres of the schizotypes was dramatically greater than 491 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: the schizophrenic and the average subjects. So this suggests that 492 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: there is a positive benefit to schizoph to schizo tippy 493 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: and that again their brains are accessing information in a 494 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: different way and that there are a lot more able 495 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: to sort of go between both hemispheres and and work 496 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: a little bit more diligently to produce novel concepts. So 497 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: here's another interesting thing. Peter Brewger is a Swiss neuroscientist, 498 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: and so he's kind of said, like, yeah, I think 499 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: that these schizotypes are different thinkers, and I think that 500 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: you know, the part of the brain that says, hey, 501 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: that's a car key on your key chain, and you know, 502 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: identifying that is a little bit different with the schizotype 503 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: brain because they can imagine different fates for that, you know, 504 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: car key or whatever, But he is saying that there 505 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: is a disproportional number of schizotypes and schizophrenics that are 506 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: neither right or left handed dominant right and they instead 507 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: use both hands for a bunch of things, for a 508 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: bunch of tasks. And so he's saying again, I think 509 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: that this, you know, the motor function and the mind 510 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: function are interwoven here, and that they're recruiting both sides 511 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: of their brains for these tasks, and there's something a 512 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: little bit different going on with the schizotype. So there's 513 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: a little insight into what's going on inside the creative 514 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: process inside the human mind, and also how this crosses 515 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: over into the territory of mental illness. So, as promised, 516 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: we are going to discuss this link, this idea that 517 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: creativity and dishonesty are actually linked together. There's some cross 518 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: over here, and it's after what we've discussed. What do 519 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: you think, ignoring the study that we've we've both read 520 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,239 Speaker 1: and and have notes about, would you be convinced at 521 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: this point that that these individuals we've discussed might also 522 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: have a particular flare for dishonesty. Um, I think that 523 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: it makes total sense that if if you're creative and 524 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: you make up stuff that that it would lend itself 525 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: to fibbing every once in a while, or sort of 526 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: moving the goal post of what you think is appropriate, 527 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: either behavior or um or just even what you report 528 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: in life to be truth. I'll buy that. Now. That's 529 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: not to say I don't think that, you know, all 530 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: creative people are dishonest, and certainly nobody in the study 531 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: that we're about to look at is arguing that that 532 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: this is a rallying cry to go and collect the 533 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: creative types and keep them under tight watch because they're 534 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: just lying their faces off NonStop. It's just showing that 535 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: there's a certain correlation between the two. Well, and what 536 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: we're going to discuss um our studies that were conducted 537 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: in the lab under very specific circumstances, and just as 538 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: we found in our laing podcast How Line Works, um 539 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: there there is a bunch of motivating factors here for 540 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: why people lie were engaged in creative storytelling. I eve line. 541 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 1: So the studying question comes to us from Francesca Gino 542 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: and Dan Airley. It's a fascinating five part study where 543 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: they where they basically did five different experiments to to 544 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: test creative and non creative types and see what their 545 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: propensity for falsehood happened to be. Yeah, because there are 546 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of different studies out there looking at creativity 547 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: and dishonesty. But as the author Scott Barry Kaufman in 548 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: his article The Dark Side of Creativity on Huffington Post 549 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: points out, they are really after pinning uh, dishonesty to 550 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: creativity and to creative types. And they really aren't, I 551 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: mean not because they have some sort of vendetity created 552 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: war and the creative Let me say that they are 553 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: very thorough in investigating this idea, perhaps more throw than 554 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: some other studies, as you say, at the five part study, 555 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: and in the first of their studies they administered a 556 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: variety of different measures of creativity, assessing a person's creative personality, behaviors, 557 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: and cognitive style. So first they weeded out what they 558 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: thought was were more creative people. Yeah, because you have 559 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: to get that sort of down for your test subjects. 560 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: These are the creative people in U in Block A, 561 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: these are the Mogels and block B right, as you say, 562 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: the mos. Yes, The participants also completed a visual perception task. 563 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: In this task, participants were presented with a bunch of 564 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: squares that were bisected by a diagonal line. Yeah, so 565 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: it's a square cut down the middle the next two triangles. Yeah, 566 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: and on either side of the line there are an 567 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: array of dots. Yeah, like a scattering of red dots 568 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: that seem almost random, like somebody just threw them up there. 569 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: So that in some cases you might have it might 570 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: be kind of ambiguous as to which side of the 571 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: square had more dots. And in other cases it's very 572 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: obvious when you look at it that most of the 573 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: dots are in one side or the other. Now, the 574 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: participants don't know this, but all of the dots on 575 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: the right hand side are going to be less than 576 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: the left in every single instance. And if they report, 577 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: and then in the participants findings, if they report that 578 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: the right side has more dots, they actually are going 579 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: to get ten times the amount in money. I think 580 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: it's oh, it's okay, okay, well yeah, let me let 581 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: me back up. Um, if they report that it's the 582 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: left side that has more dots, they'll get a half 583 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: a cent. Okay. Now, if they report that it's the 584 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: right side, they'll get It's important to point this out 585 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: that it's you're talking about a piddling amount of money 586 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: involved here, right, It's it's nothing. Right, So it's not 587 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: a huge motivate. You're not gonna walk a right away 588 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: from this study saying, oh man, I'm quitting my job. Yeah, 589 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: No matter what financial problems lead you to take part 590 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: in this blow a Saturday and this scientific study, for 591 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: these guys, this is not going to make a difference. Okay. 592 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: So they're getting five cents for reporting on the right, 593 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: they're getting half a cent for the left, and this 594 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: is creating a conflict between providing the correct answer right. So, 595 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: as you said, some of these arrays are really obvious. 596 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: It's like, yes, there's no doubt that the right side 597 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: only has three dots and the left side has fifty dots. 598 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: But some of them were more ambiguous, and that's where 599 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: they see the line happening the most. And it's kind 600 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: of a brilliant way to construct or design this experiment 601 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: because I wanted to point this out. We've talked about 602 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: this before that we are all sort of born accountants. 603 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: We can look at a rays of dots like this, 604 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: and even if it's a little bit ambiguous, you can 605 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: already tell which pot has more dots in it, which 606 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,959 Speaker 1: array it has more is more populated. That's just going 607 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: to become obvious. But the fact that there's just you know, 608 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: it's a little bit into question, is a little bit ambiguous, 609 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: gives people this license, particularly creative individuals, to interpret the 610 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: data so that it suits them. Yeah. In other words, 611 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: there when it's ambiguous enough, they're willing to air on 612 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,239 Speaker 1: the side of me getting a nickel as opposed to 613 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: being factually accurate. And you get it from the study 614 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: that it's this is really occurring on almost like a 615 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: really subconscious level. It's not like somebody saying, all sides 616 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: being equal, I'd rather get that nickel. I'm going to 617 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: vote for this one. They've kind of programmed them ahead 618 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: of time with the knowledge that all things being equal, 619 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: one side is more advantageous, even if it we're talking 620 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: again about just a nickel's worth of advantage. Well, and 621 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: then you might think to yourself, Okay, so the creative 622 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: individual is more prone to lying or being dishonest. Um, 623 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: what about someone with high i Q. Could they perhaps 624 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: try to figure out a way to deceive better? After all, 625 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, you would think that they'd be able to 626 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: sort of navigate the waters of dishonesty a little bit better. Yeah, 627 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: and that's where the second study cames, and they add 628 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: in intelligence as a possible predictor of dishonesty, and they 629 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: found it when it was intelligence versus creativity, creativity was 630 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: still the better indicator on who was going to be 631 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: dishonest on this test. So again, in the first study, 632 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: we had the creatives and the non creatives, as judged 633 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: by some of the initial weeding out process, Right, So 634 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: now you have more than just creative and uncreative. You 635 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: have high i Q low i Q thrown in. And 636 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: again they're they're finding that if you were gonna bet 637 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 1: money on which ones we're going to feel a little 638 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,959 Speaker 1: when the ambiguity hits, it's going to be the creative people. 639 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: Book on the creative people instead of trying to book 640 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: on the highly intelligent people. Okay, So in their third 641 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 1: study they stiff the kniphone just a little bit deeper 642 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: by saying, Okay, what if someone just engaged in the 643 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: act of creativity itself, would that make that person more dishonesty? 644 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: What if we just sort of buttered them up and 645 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: made them feel a little creative, you know, because even 646 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: non creative types you feel that you may wake up 647 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: one morning and you're you're feeling like, you know, I'm 648 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: not gonna going to work them, I'm gonna paint, you know, 649 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,879 Speaker 1: because maybe you saw a documentary on painting last night 650 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: and that's what did it. So they couldn't actually show 651 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: someone a documentary on painting here, But what they did 652 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: is that they had participants construct sentences for on a 653 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: list of grammatically correct words, so they had a bunch 654 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: of words to choose from that. The words that they 655 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: had to choose from, most of them were creative in 656 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: some sense, like creative innovative imagination, So they were priming 657 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: them to think in a creative sense. And so the 658 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: question was, will this make people more inclined to cheat 659 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: on on our little dot test if they just are 660 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: thinking about creativity? It did, It did, It did. And 661 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: that's the kind of awful realization that comes into play here, 662 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: is that it's not just you know, a creative person 663 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: is more prone to be dishonest. It's that engaging in 664 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: creativity will actually lead to the possibility in this in 665 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: this example, at least of someone again sort of recasting 666 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: what reality is telling a different story telling a lie essentially. 667 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 1: Their fourth study was again another variation on this theme 668 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: of the visual perception task, the Dota raise, but instead 669 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: of now priming them with creative terms, they now just 670 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: had them go through divergent thinking tasks. Now, divergent thinking 671 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: again is something that will ramp up creativity. They saw 672 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: the same thing again and again the people who are 673 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: engaging in the creative divergent thinking task were prone to 674 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: be more dishonest. Their fifth study, as if they hadn't 675 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 1: made the case already, they had an online survey of 676 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 1: seventeen departments and a corporation, and they had those people 677 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: talk about different instances where they could be more honest 678 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: or dishonest, basically going through these sort of like integrity 679 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: scenarios um and then so they have those people sort 680 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: of say what they would do in these certain situations, 681 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: and then they had the people rank what they did 682 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,720 Speaker 1: in their job, and it was found that those people 683 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: who were the more creative types in the creative departments 684 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: again were more prone to be dishonest in these scenarios 685 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 1: that they laid out for them. The last one particularly 686 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: I found kind of interesting because I wondered what extent 687 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: of it is just a matter of having a creative 688 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: enough mind too to put yourself in the shoes of this, uh, 689 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: this hypothetical individual that you're being surveyed about. You know, 690 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: you think they're drawing on their empathy. Well, I wonder 691 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: to what extent it's kind of an empathy test as well, 692 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: because I find that they're I will hear hear horrible 693 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: cases or you know, read a book about a particularly 694 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: horrible character, and if it's if it's you know, if 695 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: it's well presented in the novel, or you get enough 696 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: details about the the human side of an individual, then 697 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: you I find on some level I can empathize with 698 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: them and maybe not agree with them completely. But I'm 699 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: more I'm less inclined to say, oh, ship that person 700 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: to the bottom of the sea. Well, okay, I think 701 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: the takeaway from here is that if, particularly if you 702 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: are a human resources person and you're listening to this 703 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: and you're just about to batten down the hatches on 704 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 1: all the creative types in your company, don't do it. Um. 705 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: The point is is that, uh, you know, creativity have 706 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: got to have if you want some sort of novel 707 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: way of approaching the world. And problems. It's it's central 708 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: to us as humans. But I guess you could say 709 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: that you have to have things pretty well, the boundaries 710 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: pretty well set in a work situation, so that it's 711 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: very apparent what the rules are and what they aren't 712 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: because again we're talking about here's interpretation, right, because again, 713 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: where did we see the dishonesty arising? It was in 714 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: this um, this area of ambiguity, the idea of what. 715 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: I don't know if there are more dots on one 716 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: side or the other, but I can I'm gonna use 717 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: my creative thinking to sort of skew it in my advantage. 718 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: If you avoid this moral gray area, it's gonna make 719 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: it a lot easier for people to do the right thing. Yeah, 720 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: and I will say, you know, for our own department, 721 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: I would say there are a lot of creative types 722 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 1: in it. But everybody, I want to say it has 723 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: a ton of integrity, and I think some in part 724 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: because we have a ton of work and we have 725 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: really strict deadlines. There's no really, it's pretty obvious what 726 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: the boundaries are well. And also it comes down to 727 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: the yogurt in the fridge example. Here you just throw 728 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: some tasty looking yogurt in the fridge. There's a chance 729 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: somebody's going to eat that. But if you put your 730 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: name on it, it's it's a it's a rarer individual 731 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: who will eat your yogurt because it's there's the name 732 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: right there, that is that is Sarah's yogurt. And if 733 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: you eat that yogurt, you were stealing from Sarah. You 734 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 1: were messing with her, her her yogurt vibe. You can 735 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: no longer objectify Sarah and the yogurt. Yeah, you can't 736 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 1: say I took a yogurt, I borrowed a yogurt. No, 737 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: it's I took Sarah's yogurt. And it's a different thing entirely. 738 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: It's a less gray, ambiguous zone. And we saw this 739 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: too in the Lying podcast, is that people who were 740 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,760 Speaker 1: forced to read a statement of integrity and then sign 741 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: it and then take a test were less likely much 742 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: much less much less likely to cheat because they had 743 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: gone through the active This is what the rules are. 744 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: And do you agree with these rules? Yes? I do 745 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,439 Speaker 1: so again, Yeah, just not too much ambiguity either. All right, Well, 746 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 1: on that note, let's call the robot over all, right, 747 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: and we have a little listener mail here from our 748 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: mechanical f and this one comes to us from Brian. 749 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 1: Brian says, Dear Roder and Julie, I enjoyed your podcast 750 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: on comfort, well done as always, it was bittersweet, however, 751 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: on the first day back to work and college in 752 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 1: about five hours after a nice long holiday weekend, inserts 753 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: sad trombone here. I don't know, that's not really there. 754 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: You go anyway, The big reason I wanted to send 755 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: out an email was a correction, not a mean one. 756 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: I'm not one of those listeners. Don't worry. The end 757 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: quote that Robert mentioned that was from Aristotle is actually 758 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: from a poem by Philip James Bailey. As much as 759 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: I love Aristotle, I figured Philip James Bailey shouldn't have 760 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: his thunder stolen. Uh. There's my two cents, maybe one 761 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: cent to help you guys out, keep up the good 762 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: work and thank you for all your efforts. And indeed, 763 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: the quote in question so everyone doesn't have to rack 764 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,879 Speaker 1: their brain to figure out what I said was we 765 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: live in deeds, not years, in thoughts, not breaths, in feelings, 766 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,879 Speaker 1: not in figures on a dial. We should count time 767 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: by heart throbs. He most lives, who thinks most feels 768 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 1: the novus acts the best, And yes, as it turns out, 769 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: that is a Philip James Bailey quote, not an Aristotle quote, 770 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: which I think I picked that up from the Psychology 771 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 1: Today blog post that had it. Apparently that quote is 772 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: applied incorrectly to Aristotle and a few different sources. But 773 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: that's my bad for not checking our primaries on that one. 774 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: See that sounds more like a Brady Bunch or a 775 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: grown up on Peanuts. Want So, if the rest of 776 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: you would like to chime in with corrections, with praise, 777 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: with examples of creativity in your own life, we'd love 778 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: to hear about it specifically. Well, what do you think 779 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: about this crossover between creativity and dishonest? If you're creative person, 780 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: do you feel like you're a little more inclined to 781 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: be dishonest if you are? If you're not really creative? 782 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 1: More of the logical, mathematical side of things, what you're 783 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: approach to all this? What do you think? Do you 784 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 1: just trust the creatives in your environment? Or are you 785 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: actually the greatest liar of them all? Even it's that 786 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 1: good that these tests aren't catching you, I don't know, 787 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: write us let us know about it. We'd love to hear. 788 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: You can reach us on Facebook, you can reach us 789 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: on tumbler. We are stuff to blow your mind and 790 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: both of those, and we're also on Twitter where our 791 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: handles blow the mind and you can always send us 792 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: a line at blow the Mind at Discovery dot com. 793 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 794 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. Brought to you by the 795 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 1: two thousand twelve Toyota Camera. It's ready, are you