1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Baritun Day Thurston and this is how to 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: citizen with Baritune Day in season two. We're talking about 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: the money, because to be real is hard to citizen 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: when we can barely pay the bills. A few years ago, 5 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: I got a Facebook message from someone claiming to be 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: my cousin. She had seen me on television and found 7 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: me on the internet. Now, when you're on television, a 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: lot of people claim to be your cousin, so I 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: was a little bit suspicious. But we met up in 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: a safe public place and she indeed was my cousin. 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: She had photos I have had vague memories. They definitely 12 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: weren't doctored. She was on my father's side of the family, 13 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: people I hadn't seen since his death when I was 14 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: a very young child. My cousin revealed to me that 15 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: my father's mother was still alive. That would make her 16 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: my only living grandparents. I was so used to just 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: me and my older sister being the whole family. The 18 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: idea of a few generations separated that was a big deal. 19 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: So I met up with my grandmother. Of course, I 20 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: asked a lot of questions about my father, and then 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: I caught myself, and I said, I said, ask this 22 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: nineties something year old black woman about herself, her journey, 23 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: her childhood. When were you born? Where did you grow 24 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: up grandma, nineteen twenties, Orangeburg, South Carolina. Did you go 25 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: to school? I asked her, Oh, yeah, we went to school. 26 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: Where did you live? On my daddy's farm, all six 27 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: of us kids, And we were proud because he owned 28 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: his own farm. He wasn't a share cropper. He at 29 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: really owned his phone. What was that like? And what 30 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: was school like? And she told me that every year 31 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: all the kids would have to gather the farm, not 32 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: just her daddy's farm, but the farms of other white 33 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: residents in the area. And naive me, I thought, oh, 34 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: maybe this is like a jobs program. All the kids 35 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: have to do this. I don't know what life in 36 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and thirties was like. But no, that 37 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: was too simple to naive, to innocent. She and her 38 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: siblings had to work for free on the farms of 39 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: white residents in that area because her father needed to 40 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: get credit extended by shop owners in the main shopping district. 41 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,839 Speaker 1: They couldn't make everything they needed. You had to buy 42 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: stuff and people use credit. But as a condition of 43 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: extending him credit, those shopkeepers demanded and were able to get, 44 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: the free labor of his children that I was not 45 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: prepared for. And it made me angry because not only 46 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: was my grandmother's labor exploited, her childhood was exploited. She 47 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: was taken out of school, another cost to be paid 48 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: by only some people in America. My grandmother had to 49 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: work for free, had to miss out on literal educational opportunities. 50 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: She left Orangeburg with her husband pretty much as soon 51 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: as she could. It's why I grew up in Washington, 52 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: d C. Doesn't own that land anymore either. Today's wealth 53 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,839 Speaker 1: inequality may not look exactly the same as it did 54 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: in nineteen twenties and nineteen thirty South Carolina, but we 55 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: still live with it. And it's not a vague thing, 56 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: Oh wealth inequality from academic doing the study. No, it's 57 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: it's real, and it exists along racial lines. The rich 58 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: tend to be wider, the poor tend to be black 59 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: or in. That is not a mistake, that's by design. 60 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: Where does that come from? I wanted to find out. 61 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: They closed the entire parks and Recreation department, They sold 62 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: off the animals in the zoo, all to avoid sharing 63 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: it with black folks. We're spending this entire season looking 64 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: at the division rooted in wealth inequality in this country, 65 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: and of course, like we always do what we can 66 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: do about it, but to do something about it, we've 67 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: got to understand it. After the break, my guest Heather 68 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: McGee breaks down the driving force of American economic exclusion 69 00:04:47,640 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: via the swimming pool. Oh M, this is happening. What's up, hi, sweetheart? 70 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: Is very good to be with you. My guest, Heather 71 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: McGee is the former president of the anti racist advocacy 72 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: organization DEMOS. She traveled all over the United States to 73 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: see for herself the economic impact racism was having on 74 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: all Americans and to write her book, The Sum of Us, 75 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: What Racism cost Everyone and How we can Prosper Together. 76 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: A simple question, Can you introduce yourself and what you do. 77 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: My name is Heather McGee. I am the author of 78 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: the new book The Some of Us, What Racism costs 79 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: Everyone and how we can prosper together. That's all you 80 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: need to know about me anymore. I'm just a writer, 81 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: you know, That's all I am. I wander the country 82 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: collecting stories. You know, we have like typing machines now 83 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: right school? What what were you before you were just 84 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: a writer? I was a policy wonk for about twenty years. 85 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: I helped to build and then I was the president 86 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: of Demos, which advanced and designed solutions to inequality. You know, 87 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: for me, my ultimate goal was to try to make 88 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: more economic opportunity for more people and to have more 89 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: justice for all. Well, how did you first get interested 90 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: in the economy? You know, I can't unscramble that egg 91 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: very well, and I'm really bad at my own origin story. 92 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: But I was born on South side of Chicago. I 93 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: remember seeing evictions and plant closures and the various things 94 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: that were going on. The new figure show unemployment spreading, 95 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: leaving nine point nine million Americans without jobs. Alert since 96 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: laborers out by station wagon to perform hundreds of evictions 97 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: for the county each year, with members of my family 98 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: losing job lubs and being foreclosed on and all of that. 99 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: And and I was raised by a single mother, and 100 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: I saw the demonization of black, particularly single moms in 101 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: the nineties under the welfare reform debate. It just felt 102 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: like the kind of dominant narrative for why, you know, 103 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: the sort of deserving no question around the economy, like 104 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: the bootstraps narrative, the idea that basically people were poor 105 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: because of bad decisions was really false. It didn't fit. 106 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: Didn't that up, you know? So I I was always 107 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: interested in the big why. What is this bootstrap narrative? 108 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: It's the idea basically that the people who are doing 109 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: well economically are doing so because they're simply better than 110 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: everybody else, and that if you are struggling, if you 111 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: find yourself broke, it's probably because of some bad decisions 112 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: that you made. It's a very individualistic way of seeing 113 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: the world. And I've since learned that narrative is itself 114 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: really racialized, right. It's that idea that there's just such 115 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: a hierarchy of human value and human worth and that 116 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: other ring that distancing is made very easy by the 117 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: illusion of racial difference. So you're coming up in the 118 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: eighties in Chicago and you're hearing this narrative, this bootstrap 119 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: narrative of deserved nous. But you said it didn't add up? 120 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: So what was the conflict? What didn't square well? I 121 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: just felt like the people I knew who worked the 122 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: hardest were those single moms. You know, my mom was 123 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: always working, and she was always working in the community 124 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: with other usually black single moms, who were you know, 125 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: making a way out of no way. The more I 126 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: learned that the things that people often think of as choices. 127 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: Am I able to continue to going to school to 128 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: college or do I have to drop out in order 129 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: to feed my family? Am I able to stay at 130 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: home with my newborn? Or do I have to go 131 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: back to work. Am I able to buy a house? 132 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: Or am I always going to rent? These are all 133 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: things that are often interpreted by individuals as individual choices, 134 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: but the terms of them are really set at the 135 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: policy level. And so for me, when I first started 136 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,599 Speaker 1: to really see that and understand that is that there 137 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: laws and policies and decisions that are made by powerful 138 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: actors that close or open doors to individuals along the 139 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: path of their life, it was a big aha. It 140 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: was a big like Okay, now now we're talking like 141 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: this is how we can really make life a little 142 00:09:55,240 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: bit sweeter for more people. So you describe this realization 143 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: and that the choice is available are determined by policies 144 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: that other people make. Do you remember an early moment 145 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: where you're like Oh, that policy creates the set of 146 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: choices people have to select from. I mean, I think 147 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: during the welfare form debate, which centered off and around 148 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: single mothers, there was a lot that was discussed in 149 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: the politics of it about encouraging work welfare to work. 150 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: Welfare is not a lifestyle. There's as sound clips of 151 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton out there, we don't want to make this 152 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: a lifestyle. What we are trying to do today is 153 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: to overcome the flaws of the welfare system for the 154 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: people who are trapped on. From now on, our nation's 155 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: answer to this great social challenge will no longer be 156 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: never any cycle of welfare. It will be the dignity 157 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: of power and the athocate work. Yeah where which you know, 158 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 1: when it was clear that if you could find a job, 159 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: it wasn't actually gonna nothing, none of the options We're 160 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: gonna pay enough for somebody to actually not be poor anymore. 161 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: Welfare kept you basically poor. A minimum waves job kept 162 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: you poor. The ability to work your way into the 163 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: middle class had long disappeared. When you say that, the 164 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: so the pathway to the middle class was closed? When 165 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: why did that happen? Well, this is the story that 166 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: I then learned once I started working at Demos when 167 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: I was twenty two, and I was the first hire 168 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: other than the director of the program in the Economic 169 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: Opportunity Program, and this was phenomenal. This was my dream job. 170 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: So it was then that I really learned kind of 171 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: the progressive economic orthodoxy, which teaches that there was a 172 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: period of dramatic expansion of the middle class. Hunger drove 173 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: our people to the breadlines. Thankfully, we waited, waited for 174 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: some sign of better days. Then came the federal government's 175 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: work program One by Want, where you know, tens of 176 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: millions of people made different working class into the middle 177 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: class through this massive economic expansion in insecurity, you know, 178 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: through the New Deal, through social securities, through the subsidization 179 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: of housing. They were guaranteed benefit pensions. We had these 180 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: state funded colleges in every state where the government picked 181 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: up the tab for college. Hundreds of homes have been 182 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: bread from the bondage of poverty, their bread winners buying 183 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: security and hope in their new jobs. It was just 184 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: sort of this period of time where everything kind of 185 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: aligned to make the greatest middle class the world had 186 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: ever seen. It sounds like the American dream. It sounds 187 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: like the American Dream, ding ding ding, You good. That's it. 188 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: That was it. That was when we had it, you know. 189 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: But the question is who was the we. So much 190 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: of what I just described was done from a federal 191 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: policy level in an explicitly racially exclusive way. Both Social 192 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: Security and the labor standards excluded the categories that black 193 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: folks mostly worked in agriculture and domestic work. The g 194 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,239 Speaker 1: I Bill excluded millions of black veterans because of segregation 195 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: in higher education. And so each of these ways that 196 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: the middle class was subsidized, that we had handouts and 197 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: free stuff for white people in the early twentieth century 198 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: created the American Dream and on racially exclusive terms, and 199 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: then the Civil rights movement basically called the question said okay, 200 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: are we're going to live up to our ideals? And economically? 201 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: This is where the story that's at the heart of 202 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: my book that some of us comes in. It was 203 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: in addition to all those great freebees, there was also 204 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: this building boom of public amenities like parks and libraries 205 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: and schools and actually swimming pools. And what happened when 206 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: many of these swimming pools that were segregated for whites 207 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: only were forced to integrate, and black famili said, hey, 208 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: those are our tax dollars creating this so called public 209 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: swimming pool. And they do these grand resort style pools, 210 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: like thousands of swimmers. They were desegregated, and black people 211 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: showed up and white people hung out with them, and 212 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: they swam together, and they played together, and they lived 213 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: happily ever after, and they made babies. And that's why 214 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: there's no there's no race anymore because nineteen fifties the 215 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: swimming pool created all of these mixed marriages. Well so, 216 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: so obviously that's more of an American fantasy. We're describing 217 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: what actually happened. What actually happened was that in town 218 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: after town, and it's very important to me to point 219 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: out not just in the Jim Crow South, but in 220 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: Ohio and Washington State and New Jersey, the town's drained 221 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: the public pools rather than integrate them. And you mean 222 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: literally like took the water out, literally took the water out, 223 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: backed up trucks of dirt, dumped it in, paved it, 224 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: over seated it with grass. In Montgomery, Alabama, where I 225 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: went on the journey to right the some of us, 226 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: they closed the entire Parks and Recreation department. They sold 227 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: off the animals in the zoo, and they kept the 228 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: Parks and Recreation Department of Montgomery closed for a decade, 229 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: all to avoid sharing it with black folks. The idea 230 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: that what's the saying you would cut off your nose 231 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: despite your face, that you would not only deny i 232 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: black people access to the free goodies that everybody's tax 233 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: dollars are paying for m but that you would I mean, 234 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: you cancel the public park, you canceled the swimming pool 235 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: for all the children and all the families. In your research, 236 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: did you find any resistance to that, extreme resistance with 237 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: somebody out there like, um, actually, look, maybe we could 238 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: just timeshare. I mean, what do we literally have to 239 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: fill the pool with concrete? That's that's pretty far, Um, 240 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: there was. I mean, as always throughout history, there have 241 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: been the race traders, right, there have been white folks 242 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: who said no, you know, who have stood up and 243 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: stood in solidarity with black folks. They're white folks who 244 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: didn't want to stand in solidarity with black folks, but 245 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: were just upset because the pool was gone. But what happened, 246 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: and this has really been very similar to the loss 247 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: of public benefits throughout our society. Right, like take take 248 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: public colleges. What is once a public good becomes a 249 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: private luxury. And so then you get this rat race. 250 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,479 Speaker 1: Right then it's like, okay, you have that individualized response. Right, 251 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: let me take another job, let me mortgage in my house, 252 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: let me re fi, you know, let me let me 253 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: figure it out on my own. And that's been the 254 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: sort of slow, you know, ratcheting down of our expectations 255 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: of what the public could do for us, and we 256 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: put it all on our own shoulders. And so literally, 257 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: with the pool story, what ended up happening is you 258 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: saw this advent of backyard pools in the Washington, D c. Area. 259 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: You had, after pool integration, over a hundred private members 260 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: only swim clubs that sprang up out of nowhere. And 261 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: so sure you could pay a few hundred dollars a 262 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: year for your kid to swim. Used to be free. Okay, 263 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: all right, we'll keep it moving. I'll make more money. 264 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: So you're you're privatizing public goods and limiting access to 265 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: those who can afford it, which is public policy connected 266 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: to your economics. Look at you, professor, Okay, So so 267 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: tell me this though, I'm trying to flash back to 268 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: this desegregating America, and I'm trying to put my health 269 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: inside of the mind and body of a white American 270 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: who's like, the black people are coming. No, we got 271 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: got shut down these pools. But do they have enough 272 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 1: discipline and savvy to explain it in a way that 273 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: doesn't say we just don't want to share this with 274 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: black people. You know, the pools are pretty clear. Actually 275 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: you saw me. I tried to help him out. I 276 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: was like, think, come on, they must have had some 277 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: kind of stories, some some kind of bus sell it. No. 278 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: I mean so in St. Louis, possibly the largest pool 279 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: in America at the time, the first day of the 280 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: integrated swimming there there was a mob of two hundred 281 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: white folks who came and beat every black person in sight. 282 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: I later saw an interview with one of the white 283 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: guys who ended up in the hospital from the melee, 284 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: and he later on would say, you know, in his 285 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: elder years, he would say, you know, we thought we 286 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: were doing the right thing. You know, they were taught 287 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: this is the thing. They were taught by our government, 288 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: by their church, by all of the rules of society 289 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: that we were so unclean and unworthy that we should 290 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: not be allowed to swim with them, go to school 291 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: with them, drink from the same water fountains them, walk 292 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 1: on the sidewalk next to them. I mean, you know, 293 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: And what do you take from all of that information 294 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: is that there's something terribly wrong with these people, and 295 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: so we must guard what is ours from the incursion 296 00:19:53,800 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: of them into it, us and them exactly. Yeah, So 297 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: you've got this book. It's called The Sum of Us. 298 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: Tell me more about this book. Ah, So, The Some 299 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: of Us is my attempt after nearly twenty years working 300 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: in economic policy, trying to get the right data in 301 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: the hands of policymakers, and mostly finding it to be 302 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: far too difficult to convince the people in power to 303 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: do the thing that was obviously in the economic interest 304 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: of most people and in the interest of economic growth 305 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: in our country. So you say, you're proposing these policies 306 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: that are obviously in the benefit of most people and 307 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: economic growth. So that, to me sounds like one of 308 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: those win win situations. Why was it hard to sell 309 00:20:53,880 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: these ideas racism? Dang it? Not again. No, I'm sort 310 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: of joking, but I'm not really joking. Um, that's what 311 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to find out, right. The first line in 312 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: my book is have you ever wondered why we can't 313 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: seem to have nice things? And by nice things, I 314 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: really do mean like really universal healthcare, a modern world 315 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: class or even just reliable infrastructure, a public health system 316 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: to contain and handle pandemics and save lives. And it 317 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: was clear that kind of the tools that I had 318 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: been using, you know, the economic policy research, the legislative 319 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: drafting and the congressional testimony and all of that was 320 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: basically falling on deaf years, and inequality was getting wider 321 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: and wider every year. I just felt like I needed 322 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: to spend some time to figure out what was really 323 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: going on underneath the surface. And what I ended up 324 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: finding was that the biggest impediment to our progress in America, 325 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: the reason why we can't have those nice things, is 326 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: that there's this zero sum worldview, this idea that there's 327 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: an US and of them, we're not actually all on 328 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: the same team, and that, in fact, progress for people 329 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: of color has to come at white folks expense. And 330 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: I say that because white people are much more likely 331 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: to have this zero sum worldview. Black folks don't believe 332 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: that progress for us has to come at white folks expense. 333 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: And it's that zero sum worldview that has led many 334 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: white folks, in fact, the majority since the Civil Rights 335 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: Movement too politically sort of cheer the destruction of and 336 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: resent the provision of public goods that could help them 337 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: and their families in many instances because it could help 338 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: the people on the other team. After the break, how 339 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: this US versus them mentality got started, and how we 340 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: can undo it. So, Heather, what I'm hearing from you 341 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: is that, at least since the Civil Rights Movement, white 342 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: Americans have been opposing policies that would make life better 343 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: for them because those same policies would also benefit black people. 344 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: Is there something unique about this white American response? Or 345 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: is that just human nature? Such a good question, and 346 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: I wanted to know, right because on the one hand, 347 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: if it if it is just human nature, if it's like, oh, 348 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: we're we're just tribal, you know, it's who we are. 349 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 1: We're competitive by nature. And I was like, Okay, well 350 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: then I give up. You know, we'll figure out some 351 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: other route, you know. Um. But the fact that it 352 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: was a view held more by white Americans and less 353 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: by Americans of color, and that white people in dead 354 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: arn't in France and England and Spain didn't feel the 355 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: same way, right, they loved their public goods. It felt like, Okay, 356 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: I gotta get to the to the bottom of this. 357 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: And that's why the the first thing I did was 358 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: kind of immersed myself in an unvarnished history of the 359 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: country through that lens. Okay, where did the zero sum 360 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: story come from? And so looking back at our history, 361 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: the zero sum was an essential foundation for the economic 362 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: structure of our country at the beginning, where our original 363 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: economic model was stolen people, stolen land, and stolen labor. 364 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: And in order to justify that within a Christian society, 365 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: they had to make those people who were being stolen 366 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: less than human and therefore they had to create this 367 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: racial hierarchy, this racial taxonomy, and the model was I profit, 368 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: you lose. You don't get to share any of the 369 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: games of your land, your effort, your labor, nothing. Slavery 370 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: and settler colonialism is about as zero sung as it comes. 371 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: But even then, and this was the real like aha 372 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: for me, I had to admit that actually that worst 373 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: possible economic model only truly maximally benefited a narrow elite 374 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: back then of white people, and so that white slave owning, 375 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: landowning elite had to convince the far more numerous, landless, 376 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: indentured white folks who were sitting there in the you know, 377 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: rocky fields alongside the black folks, that they were better 378 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: than the person down down the row, and that in fact, 379 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: justice or freedom for black folks would be a threat 380 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: to white folks. Period. The old divide and conquer, Ye 381 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 1: old divide and conquer. So that's where it came from, 382 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: and then it's been reanimated generation after generation. This idea 383 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: of job competition giving white folks everyday white folks just 384 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: enough taste of privilege that they could choose their race 385 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: over their class as pretty convincing story, backed up by 386 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: a few centuries now of storytelling. So tell me about 387 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: the traveling you did while you were researching and writing 388 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: this book. So I talked to a whole bunch of people. 389 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: So I went, for example, to Mississippi, where the workers 390 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: at a car factory had just voted against organizing into 391 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: a union with the United Auto Workers. Nisson is unable 392 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: to provide decent wages at decent working conditions here in Captain, Mississippi, 393 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: And for me growing up in the Midwest, where those 394 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: kinds of jobs, those unionized manufacturing jobs were the best jobs, 395 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, why would anybody vote know to 396 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: having that kind of power. So I wanted to go 397 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: down and sit with folks, and so I flew and 398 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: then I drove to a UM, a kind of nondescript 399 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: workers center in a strip mall, which was the place 400 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: where the pro union workers would kind of meet before 401 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: their shift and hang out and talking between shifts. And 402 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: I sat in the lobby with them over a series 403 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: of days and just talk to them about the conditions 404 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: of the plant, the lives that they led, what they 405 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: hoped for, what they had hoped that unionizing would bring them, 406 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,719 Speaker 1: And race was always the topic of the conversation. So 407 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: we had far more black workers than white workers who 408 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: had been supportive of the union. And they were clear 409 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: to me that the word union itself was kind of 410 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,719 Speaker 1: a dog whistle in the South for some that lazy, 411 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: undeserving black folks needed as this one guy, Joey said 412 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: to me, white guy with a sleeve of tattoos and 413 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: cut off sleeve shirt, said the white folks down here. 414 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: They got their Southern mentality. I am voting for it 415 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: if the blacks are for it. If the blacks are 416 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: for it, then I'm against it. Like that is the mentality. 417 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: They talked about the way that white folks did have 418 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: an advantage in the plant as. It was that there 419 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: was a real ladder of hierarchy, and that the white 420 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: folks were much more likely to have what they called 421 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: the cushier jobs. As one guy said, you can tell 422 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: they pushed because they can leave work and go straight 423 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: to the happy hour. They don't have to go home 424 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: and shower, right, And so it was those kinds of 425 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: little perks, right, the little advantages of whiteness. And honestly, 426 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: after the first day, I went back to my hotel 427 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: room and I was like, well, maybe white folks are right, 428 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: Maybe this is better for them than having a union 429 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: with rules that are going to put them on the 430 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: same level. Right, And then I had to remind myself, right, 431 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: but nobody has good health care, nobody has job security, 432 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: nobody has the things that should really matter, things that 433 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: could actually transform your life. It's like two people in 434 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: a cold room. One's got a coat, one doesn't. But 435 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: if they just sort of joined together and like shouldered, 436 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: opened the door, then walked out into the sun where 437 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: it's seventy degrees. They both be good, you know, but 438 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: it's the boss that keeps them in the cold room 439 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: right and keeps that sense of I'm going to have 440 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: a little bit of advantage over what is generally speaking 441 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: a crappy system, and I'm going to cling to that 442 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: advantage rather than opening my hand and joining forces with 443 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: somebody I've been taught to disdain and distrust, even if 444 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: both of our lives will be better. White folks have 445 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: been taught that if there is a risk in society, 446 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: they're gonna be protected from it, and burdens are going 447 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: to fall on the people that the burdens always fall on. 448 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: Now that is both true when it comes to pollution 449 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: and environmental degradation and and the vulnerability of when lights 450 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,479 Speaker 1: go out and the power goes out in the pandemic arise, right, 451 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: those disparities will exist. It's not like white people are 452 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: completely spared. So it is an illusion, just like race 453 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: is an illusion. Just like this racial hierarchy is an illusion, 454 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: but it's one that is present enough to have them 455 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: like hedge in their bats a little bit, but it's 456 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: the toll is is mounting, right. I mean, before the 457 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: pandemic unplugged our economy and threw millions of people out 458 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: of work, nearly half of adult workers were only making 459 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: ten dollars an hour or eighteen thousand dollars a year 460 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: on average, the low wage workers. Right, This, this economy 461 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: that's sort of where the rules are are rigged to 462 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: squeeze down and down and down is the economy that 463 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: black and brown folks have always known. It was the 464 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: economy that was created for us to live in. And 465 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: now many more white people are living in it too, 466 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: because they've so cast their lot with a sense of 467 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: racial allegiance to a white elite. I want to talk 468 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: about something that we hear a lot about. Let's talk 469 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: about wealth inequality. What is wealth inequality? And why do 470 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: you care about it? Why should we care about isn't 471 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: it a feature of society since time and memorial? You 472 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: got rich people, got poor people. What's the big deal? 473 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: So wealth, as opposed to income, income is your paycheck, right. 474 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: Wealth is how much money you have in the bank, 475 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: no matter what paycheck is coming in or not, it's 476 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: in your savings. Account. It's about the value of your house. 477 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,719 Speaker 1: It's about pension or four one k you might have 478 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: our inn i ra. It's about the things that don't 479 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: come and go with how much effort you put in. 480 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: It's just the ship you have. And that is where 481 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: history shows up in your wallet. It's was your family 482 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: there in line with the right color skin at the time, 483 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: and the government was still handing out houses with no 484 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: down payment? Right? Was your family in line when they 485 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: were handing out jobs that were unionized, that had a pension. 486 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: Were you in line when they were handing out debt 487 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: free college or were you born into a family that 488 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: was excluded from all that by design? So when we 489 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: talk about wealth inequality, we are talking about the people 490 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: who make their money by opening an envelope that comes 491 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: from their stockbroker, versus the people who make money going 492 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: into a job like that's a whole different level, right, 493 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: And there are are many people whose money just sits 494 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: there and makes money and it has nothing to do 495 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: with how tired they get in a day. So your 496 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: money works rather than you're working, thank you, exactly. So 497 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: the richest one percent owns more than the entire middle 498 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: class combined today then you look at race, and that's 499 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: where you start to bring it down to the sort 500 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: of real brass tax level, where the average family headed 501 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: by a white high school dropout has more wealth than 502 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: the average black family headed by a college graduate. So 503 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: that doesn't that doesn't sound right. So I'm gonna need 504 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: you to double check your math on that because that 505 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: doesn't sound very American. So you just try try one 506 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: more time. Just all right, let me do a quick calculation. 507 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: The average household headed by a white high school dropout 508 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: has about thirty four thousand dollars in average wealth. For 509 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: a household headed by a black college graduate, the average 510 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: wealth is less than thirty dollars. So what that means 511 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: is that individual myth of the thing that is holding 512 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: black folks back now is a lack of education, a 513 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: lack of income, a lack of what the nice economists 514 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: call human capital is largely false. And it's really about 515 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: whether or not you were the right at the right place, 516 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: in the right time and history, with the right skin 517 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: color to get free stuff that then begets more and 518 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: more free stuff. Your money creates money. If you've got 519 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 1: house and home equity, then you can borrow against that 520 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 1: to pay for college tuition, then your kid doesn't have 521 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: to go into debt. Then they can graduate and take 522 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: an unpaid internship or spend six months working at a 523 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: startup that doesn't pay them. Your biggest takeaways from your 524 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: journey putting this book together. The thing that my journey 525 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: to write the book taught me is that race and 526 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: racism is always there. It's always there in our politics, 527 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: in our policy making, even when we don't think it is. 528 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: And the zero sum racial hierarchy is a tail as 529 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: old as time, and yet we have come to the 530 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: moral and productive end of it, and we've got to 531 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: start replacing it with the solidarity dividend, where we refill 532 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: the pool of public goods for everyone. But we recognize 533 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: it because of racist policymaking. We're not all standing at 534 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: the same depths in that drained pool. So some people 535 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: are underwater completely, some people are treading water. And so 536 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 1: one size is never gonna fit all, never has, never will, 537 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: And that we meet each other, we are on the 538 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: same team. What is the solidarity dividends? Solidarity dividends are 539 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: the gains that we can unlock, but only if we 540 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: work together across lines of race. The things that we 541 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: all need that we simply can't do on our own. 542 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: Cleaner air, higher wages, better funded schools. But as long 543 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: as we're divided, we're not going to do that. What 544 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: signs are you seeing that we can climb out of 545 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: this hole? Because as much as I try to be motivational, 546 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: inspirational and honest, the honest part of me is like, 547 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, this racial narrative story, it's it's 548 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: been on the run. This is the series that always 549 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: gets renewed and people keep watching. So what's the other story? 550 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: What's the other show? So the pessimistic story is January six, right, 551 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: is we have had at a white supremacists, anti democratic 552 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: attempt to siege the capital and lynch are elected representatives 553 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: to throw out the results of an election, something we 554 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: have not seen since reconstruction, and something in terms of 555 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: in the national capital we have never seen. That's pretty bad. 556 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: That's pretty bad. That's pretty pretty exhibit a of exactly 557 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: the stakes of this racial narrative, of the desire to 558 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: burn down the edifice of our democracy rather than have 559 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: it be a multiracial democracy. But the reason for hope 560 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: is January five is the day that came before when 561 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: in Georgia, say it again. In Georgia, a multi racial 562 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: anti racist coalition got together gott In Formation behind Stacy 563 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: Abrams and the successor to Martin Luther King's Church and 564 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: a nice white Jewish guy. It said, We're march in Washington. 565 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: Let freedom bring. NBC News Now projecting that John ass Off, 566 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: the Democrat, will win the Senate runoff in the state 567 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: of Georgia, projects Raphael Warnock as the winner. Eighty two 568 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: year old hands that used to pick somebody else's cotton 569 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: went to the polls and picked her youngest son to 570 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: be a United States Senator. You know what I'm saying, 571 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 1: and and you know we are talking right now after 572 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: President Joe Biden signed a bill that is poised to 573 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: cut child poverty in half. Historic legislation is about rebuilding 574 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: the backbone of this country. That is the biggest grant 575 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: Indigenous communities in our history. That is going to include 576 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: money for vaccines and reopening schools, and to address homelessness 577 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: and affordable housing and school lunches and give families three 578 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: a month to make sure that they don't have to 579 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: choose between feeding their kids and keeping the lights on. 580 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: How do you tell a white person not just to 581 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 1: like help we the black people, but like there's something 582 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: in this for you. This country tells the story how 583 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: great we are. We went to the moon, we defeated 584 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: the Nazis, we did we created you know, uh, wet naps. 585 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: You know, like we've done a lot of a lot 586 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: of powerful things. And I'm like, guess what we did 587 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: all that with most of the players, like not on 588 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: the field. We might have been to mars by. Now 589 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: if we let women have their own bank accounts, you 590 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: know what I mean, we could have created that much 591 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: more wealth. So when you think about what a healthy 592 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: economy looks like and the connection to racial equity or equality, 593 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: how do you think about that story? What is in 594 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: it for the some of us when we grant access 595 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: to an opportunity to all of us? That's exactly right. 596 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: I mean, that is a case for reparations. Remember, the 597 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: white high school dropout has more wealth in the black 598 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,919 Speaker 1: college educated person. We got a wealth issue to work 599 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 1: out with here. But we do have to recognize that 600 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: the conversation about preparations is going to be heard in 601 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: that zero sum framework, right, It's going to be what's 602 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: the cost out of my pocket? Why are you giving 603 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: money to them? What about me? Black lives matter? What 604 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: about white lives? But the way I see it is 605 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: we hit on the formula in the United States for 606 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: the greatest middle class the world had ever seen, the 607 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: most prosperous economy of the modern era, and the foundations 608 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,919 Speaker 1: of that were investing in ordinary folks and giving them 609 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,840 Speaker 1: the cushion to be able to meet their needs and 610 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: fulfill their dreams. And then the majority of white folk 611 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: turned their back on that formula because it was expanded 612 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: to black folks. And if we were to actually say 613 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: that the government that made the policies to strip wealth, 614 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: to enslave all of that, the government is the one 615 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: that owes Black America, not white people have to cut 616 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: a check to their nearest black neighbor, you know, it 617 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: is the government that needs to give black families something 618 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: so that there is that cushion in that platform for 619 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: them for us to build our dreams. And that you 620 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: can't look at the thirteen to one racial wealth divide, 621 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: so much of which is about inherited wealth and not 622 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: see that if we did reparations, it will be seed 623 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: capital for the America that is becoming. That's what I 624 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: see reparations as it's investing in our people, in our future. Again, reparations, 625 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: it's not a giveaway, it's an investment. Heather McGee, it 626 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:10,319 Speaker 1: has been a pleasure. Thank you so so much. Thank 627 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 1: you Mary to thank you for this beautiful, beautiful podcast. 628 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: As you might be able to tell, I really enjoyed 629 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:35,319 Speaker 1: that conversation with Heather. Our economy is based on exclusion, 630 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: historically speaking and in the present. And this is not 631 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: an intellectual point. This is this is real stuff here, 632 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 1: It actually matters. And when we think about what the 633 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: alternative is to build an economy built on inclusion and participation, 634 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: something more small, d democratic, we have to leave that 635 00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:00,720 Speaker 1: zero sum mentality that I'm here to take your stuff, 636 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: or that charitable mentality we've got to help these poor 637 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 1: black people get ahead and catch up. No, we've got 638 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: to help ourselves by benefiting from the contributions When everybody participates. 639 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: That's how we win, that's how we do better. We 640 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: do it together. So how do we get that, How 641 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,879 Speaker 1: do we build that economy, that participatory, more democratic economy 642 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 1: where we benefit from everybody's participation rather than fearing The 643 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: good news is you know, we're gonna go there. That's 644 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: what we do here. Next week we're gonna talk to 645 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 1: someone for whom inclusion is not a charitable effort, it's 646 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: just smart business. So many sort of quote unquote social 647 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: enterprises are frankly stupid. I don't like this idea that 648 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 1: there's one group of customers that you sell to and 649 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: there's another group of customers that you do charity for. 650 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,839 Speaker 1: Next week, we talked to Sam Pulp of Every Take. 651 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 1: Now for the fun part, where we give you things 652 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: you can do to citizen better. I want you to 653 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,439 Speaker 1: think first. That's the first action. Just think, Just try 654 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,399 Speaker 1: to remember where your family fits into this story. Our 655 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: history is deeply rooted in this idea that when one 656 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: group gains, another group has to lose. Has anyone you know, 657 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,319 Speaker 1: has anyone in your family expressed those ideas? Where do 658 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: you think that comes from? Why do you think this 659 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 1: person expressed those things? Just think about it. It's that simple. 660 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,720 Speaker 1: The next thing I want you to do is read 661 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,759 Speaker 1: Heather McGee's book. Check it out from your local library, 662 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,799 Speaker 1: take it off the reserve list, or support a local bookshop. 663 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,239 Speaker 1: In fact, we've set up bookshop dot org slash how 664 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: to Citizen with a bunch of books, including Heathers, that 665 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,240 Speaker 1: we think will help us all in this journey. And finally, 666 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,080 Speaker 1: I want you to do something a little more public 667 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:12,000 Speaker 1: that shows what a solidarity dividend might actually feel like. 668 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 1: Let's fight for fifteen. As Heather explained, these solidarity dividends 669 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 1: are the gains we get when we work together across 670 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: racial divides for the benefit of us all. Fight for 671 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,920 Speaker 1: fifteen is an international movement for workers rights and a 672 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,440 Speaker 1: fifteen dollar minimum wage. The website is fight for fifteen 673 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: dot org and there are several ways for you to 674 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: get involved. Pick one. If you're taking to these actions, 675 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 1: please brag about yourself online using the hashtag how to 676 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: Citizen and send us general feedback or ideas for the 677 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: show to comments at how to citizen dot com. Speaking 678 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,920 Speaker 1: of that domain name, visit how to citizen dot com 679 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: to sign up for our newsletter or learn about upcoming events. 680 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 1: And if you like the show, spread the word tell somebody. 681 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,400 Speaker 1: If you don't, definitely just keep it to yourself. Appreciate you. 682 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: How does Citizen with barrettune Day is a production of 683 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio podcasts and dust like productions. Our executive 684 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,880 Speaker 1: producers are Me barrettun Day, Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart, and Misha Yusa. 685 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: Our producers are Stephanie Cone and Ali Kilts. Kelly Prime 686 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,320 Speaker 1: is our editor, Valentino Rivera is our engineer, and Sam 687 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: Paulson is our apprentice. Original music by Andrew Eapen. This 688 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,760 Speaker 1: episode was produced and sound designed by Stephanie Cone. Special 689 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,760 Speaker 1: thanks to Joel Smith from I Heart Radio.