WEBVTT - Need A 4th?! Ep. 5 with REM Bassist - Mike Mills 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:09.680 Golf. Is that they anything in golf that doesn't change, 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.200 anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.360 a one time winner on the PGA Tour? The point, Alan, 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:22.360 is he didn't go Hollywood. You Need a Fourth? Well, 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.200 before we get started with this episode, I will say 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.920 that our guest is a golf lover who's very adept 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.880 with musical instrument And have you ever seen those videos 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:34.760 of Echo ambassador Eric van Ruin playing the guitar like 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:39.120 he can actually shred? Yeah, he's a neat, stylish guy 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:41.760 we've had around him for a while. Or having such 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:43.479 a beautiful golf swing and be able to play a 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.599 guitar like that, I'm deeply jealous. And somehow no one 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.279 can make joggers the cool, but Eric van Ruin does, 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:51.800 partly because he's got the right shoes. Echo Footwear, who's 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.640 a sponsor of this podcast. We love Echo, we love music. 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:59.160 Let's get to this Need a Fourth Hello, and welcome 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.760 back to an other Need a Fourth podcast. This Alan 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:06.560 Schipnik my co hosts Jeff Ogilvie and Michael Bamberger. We 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:11.840 take turns surprising each other with a mystery guest. Today, 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:16.280 Michael has provided said person do you want to Dr Bamberger? 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.560 Do you wanna give us a few hints about who 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:23.240 they might be? Sure? Uh, today's guest is one of 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:28.360 the wittiest and most intelligent people I know. He has 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:33.880 as Jeff has traveled the world playing golf and carrying 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:36.800 a lug of clubs. This guy has traveled the world 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:39.840 with the tools of his straight But he only I 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.000 don't know the answer, but he only travels, probably with 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:47.920 about three or four of his instruments. He has logged. 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:53.520 He's he's not a likely candidate. That would be an understandment. 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:55.120 I was gonna say he's not a likely cannic. Get 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:56.560 to every get in the world golf all of him, 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:00.320 I would say that ship has sailed. But he is 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.640 in the rock and roll He is in the rock 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:09.960 and roll Hall of Fame. Um, Alan, you may already know. Well, 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:13.040 I have an advantage because I know you have habits 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:16.800 and your friendships. Uh. If his initials beginning with the 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:26.120 T like as in bow, no interest, no interesting, good thought, 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:29.640 very good thought, and perhaps for for another day, he shared, 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:31.720 now this will be this will be tough for Jeff 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.320 and easy brown. He shares the initials with an iconic 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:40.000 New York Yankee, even though his own baseball tastes run 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:44.680 to the Atlanta Braves forming the Milwaukee Braves, but his 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:46.880 affection for them, I think is very much sure to 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.480 say of that he grew up in, which is Georgia 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.840 is just getting too easy for you? Is this with 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.680 that baseball player being Mickey Mantle? The baseball player would 0:02:56.680 --> 0:03:00.280 be Mickey Mantle? I think that that makes her history 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:04.760 guest perhaps Mike Mills, but I'd be correct, Yes, our guestory, 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:10.200 our mr guests Mr Mike Mills. Uh often from here 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:16.760 he is Hey, I love it, Hey guys. Uh. For 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.400 those who don't know, and most too, Mike Mills is 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:23.920 the bassist for for R E. M and Uh a 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.520 great friend to too many of us who hang around 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:29.120 golf courses and Mike and I have logged a lot 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.880 of time at Augusta National and on various golf courses. 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.280 And you can see Mike at the Athens Country Club, Uh, 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:41.680 applying his other trades. It's sometimes in the woods and Uh, anyway, Mike, 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.240 it's a great, great pleasure to have you here. Uh, 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:49.120 Alan have you met Michael along the way? No, surprisingly not, 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.520 I know you guys have been friends forever and and 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.040 Mike is a is an enthusiast. But h or do 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.960 we have a quick conversation at Augusta once? It's entirely 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:00.800 possible that would have be have been on the courser 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.720 at t Bones, which is my unofficial home. Yeah they're 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.680 in Augusta. Yeah that, but never spent any quality time, 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:10.960 much to my chagrin. But your your legend proceeds you. 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.760 Thank you for doing this, This is this is great. Well, 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:15.760 there's still time we can hang at the next master's 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:20.520 and uh, and Mike, you wouldn't know this, but Jeff 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:24.160 Jeff is in a hotel. Jeff Ogilvy, an assistant captain 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.800 on the President's Cup team this year, is in a 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.520 hotel room. Uh in Tribeca, where I know you've blogged 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.400 a lot of time. Uh, Mike, Mike is a student 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.120 of the better hotels. Like he will flat out say 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:39.440 to me, this is way above your pay grade. You're 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.560 never sniffing such and such a hotel. I'm okay with that. 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.240 But so, Mike, you wouldn't know this, But but Jeff 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.159 Jeff often does this from home. And there are no 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.680 there are no nods to his long and distinguished profession 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.760 in golf. Um, but you do see a an acoustic 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.599 guitar standing in the corner um of his office, It's 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:03.200 actually less. It's actually a Gibson less pole Marchael whoa 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.320 excellent even better. It looks better than it sounds when 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:12.680 I play it. There's fine up there. I'm curious, you know, 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.560 for for for for Jeff and Mike, is there is 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.640 a rivalry between the bassist and the guitarist you tube, 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.320 does one look down upon the other or what? What? 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:27.200 What is that dynamic? Like? Well, only a friendly sort 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:29.240 of rivalry. I mean we make fun of their little 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:33.520 bitty strings. Uh, it's like anybody can play those tiny 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.000 little things. Takes a man to play big fat bass strings. 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:38.120 But no, I mean I love to play guitar too. 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:40.839 And and you know, a band of all bass players 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.440 would be pretty boring. Jeff, Who's who's the most famous 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:47.800 musician You've ever jammed with? I haven't. I've jammed with 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:52.440 them all on YouTube on my but um, I haven't 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:55.599 never jamming. I'm a very private guitarist. I'll be um, 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:57.400 we're gonna have a We're gonna have a game of 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.679 I'd be a probably a twelve handicapped guitar was probably 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:06.240 so Mark, what's your golf handicap? We could compare off skills. Uh, 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:08.320 let's let's say you're probably a better guitar player than 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:10.920 I am a golfer. I'm currently riding about a sixteen 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:15.160 seven sixteen seven index. I I just I just don't play, 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.120 uh consistently enough to keep it down. I got down 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:20.279 to fourteen at one point when I was actually hitting it. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.040 But um, I'm just you know, I just don't have 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:24.120 the time to get out there. If I got out 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:25.520 there two or three times a week, I could probably 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:27.280 get it back to a fourteen. But it's it's hard 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.360 to find the time. Mike, what was your first love 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:32.520 baseball or golf? And how did you find your way 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.160 to golf? Uh? Well, baseball, it was my love ever 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:37.480 since I was, you know, kid listening to Chipe. I 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:39.960 put the little transistor radio under my pillow at night 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.960 and listened to the Braves, you know, especially when they're 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:44.320 you know, they're in the West Division. So I was 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:46.560 listening to a lot of West Coast games, which kept 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:48.480 me up really late, which probably explains why it was 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.080 so easy to be a musician because I'm just used 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.640 to be an up late anyway, Um, golf I got 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:55.599 my dad got me into golf, and I was about fourteen. 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:57.720 I played for a couple of years and I really 0:06:57.760 --> 0:06:59.719 loved it. But then, you know, once I went to 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:02.120 at to school and got on the road, there was 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.760 neither time nor money uh to play golf unfortunately. And 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:07.920 then later on in the in the musical career, we 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.440 we managed to have some money and find some time 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:12.520 and I was able to play some really cool places 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.000 on tour. Was there a period where where being a 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.560 musician who loved golf was not cool? And did did 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.400 did that that public opinion shift at all? I get uh? 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:26.400 And how did your bandmates take your your obsession? Um? Well, 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.960 my manager and Bill Berry the drummer, and our manager 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.960 Burtish down so they both played, so we always had uh. 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:36.200 You know, it wasn't a complete ostracization. Ostracization for wanting 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:40.200 to play golf. You know, golf. Um, you know, back 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.160 in the back in the eighties when I was playing it, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.800 golf had a lot of heavy baggage. It was a 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.880 very at the time, it was a very elitist sport. Uh. 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.320 It certainly no longer is, which is great, but it 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.360 was at the time, and and you got it. And 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.200 the clothes were just bad. I mean they were bad. 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.160 There's just no getting around it. The sands of belt pants. 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.760 Uh you know it was it was all the rage 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.680 but that but anyway, um so I didn't care. I 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:06.960 played it. I loved it. There's just something so satisfying 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:09.520 about making well when it happens, making a ball ago 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.080 where you wanted to go and uh and I loved 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:13.680 it and and there are just so many aspects of 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:15.600 the game that I really enjoyed. But but and it's 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.480 come so far since then. I mean, now you know, 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.480 half the people I know that are musicians are also golfers. 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:23.680 There's no stigma to it anymore. And people have found 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:26.240 out how meditative it can be if you don't let 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.760 your temper run away with you. Well said. I should 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.680 note that Mike is newly and happily married before I 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.720 tell the following story, because I think it relates to Macrohanish. 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:38.800 But Mike and I have a great, great mutual friend, 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:43.199 Burt of Sounds, through whom we met uh In about 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:47.320 would be would be my guess, uh Alan wants into story. 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:49.679 I think he was writing about Macrohanish and he was 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.160 writing about the rough and Burt picked up on this 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:59.240 line years ago. Forever can we get an edit? No? No, no, okay, 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:04.239 bheaud He told me, I fucking knew it. I knew it. 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.439 Burnis don't know. It's not we We didn't speak for it. 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:10.960 Burnis told me this story today and he said, make 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:12.720 sure you mentioned it to Allen. And I said, well, 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.400 maybe it'll just come up on its own, So go ahead, Michael, 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.840 you did that. What was was it Macaronis and Burtis 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.440 is telling? Or did that come up? You didn't mention 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:27.679 the course Alan? Is it Macaronish? Yes? He compared. Alan 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:33.000 compared the rough at Macahonish too. I think the thick 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:37.840 hair of a supermodel, a wild and Willie supermodel. The 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:43.360 next day, I mean to which to which burgers, to 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:51.040 which Burnis responded like he would know my my preamble, 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.160 my preamble to all this is. And I'm not and 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:58.840 I'm not asking Mike. Mike, I can either confirm nor 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.880 deny that, but I can certainly I can certainly imagine it. 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:06.600 That's part of it. That's part of being a writer, 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.400 you know, you have to exact places they can't go otherwise. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.240 I was doing a service there. That's what songs are 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:16.160 for and what and what articles and books are for. Absolutely. Jeff, 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:18.280 of course has been doing this with with alan to 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:19.960 Made for a number of months now. And one of 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:21.800 the things that comes out when you hear Jeff talked 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.240 about about golf and professional golf and tournament golf and 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:26.960 trying to beat the course and trying to beat the 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.720 other guy is that it is an odd blend of 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.320 science and art, which of course it is. And of 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:35.840 course being in a band like you are, in mastering 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.520 an instrument as you have that too, is it's there's 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.040 a lot of science to the playing of a musical instrument, 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:43.680 and of course there's a lot of art too. And 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:45.920 I wonder if you've ever given any thought to comparing. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.439 Is there some reason why so many musicians are drawn 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.760 to golf and so many golfers are drawn to music. 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:54.840 Do you think there's some connection there between that weird 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.760 blend of art and science. I would, I would think so. 0:10:57.840 --> 0:10:59.800 I mean, certainly, when you say it, it becomes clear 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.280 what those what those parameters are in order to become 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.600 good at either one you have to understand how to 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.320 do it. You have to put the work in. You 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:11.079 have to know how to play the base or how 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.360 to play the guitar, and to be your golfer, you 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:14.920 have to know how to swing the club, how to 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:16.800 hit the club, how to move your body. So all 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:20.960 those scientific and technical aspects come into play. But once 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.520 you've learned that, it's nothing without the imagination and the 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.840 creativity to do something with it. Um. You know, Alan, 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:30.719 I've been reading your book recently about phil and and 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.040 just you know, that's the paradigm example of of someone 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.120 who put the work in to learn how to do 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:41.319 these things and then had the imagination and creativity to 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:45.240 to apply that to whatever situation he put himself in. So, 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:47.960 uh that that's in the same for music. I mean, 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.040 you you can learn how to play guitar, but if 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.800 you don't have that creative part of your brain, you'll 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:55.880 never write a good song. Let's follow up and that 0:11:55.960 --> 0:12:00.240 what about the competitive side, uh, golfer professional golf first, 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.280 coming to all different levels of competitiveness. Tiger and Jack 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.520 Nicholas of course would be at one level, but then 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.560 you have some you know, real soul type golfers like 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.679 like Jeff Ogilvie Um, for whom the competition is part 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:13.719 of it, but not the defining thing when you think 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.800 about your own success. Uh, in a really cut throat, 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:21.280 tough business, to what degree just competitiveness explain the success 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.240 of the band? I would? I don't like to think 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:28.000 of music as a competitive endeavor. People ask me to 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:29.960 judge Battle of the Bands and things like that, and 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:31.319 I don't. I don't want to do that because I 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:32.880 don't want to say, well, you're the winner and you're 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.640 the loser. That's that's sort of antithetical to what music is. 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.360 You know. The guy who sings in the shower to 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.720 me is a musician, just the same as as somebody 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:48.200 who's playing medicine square garden um. But it's I enjoy 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.160 I enjoy both aspects of it. I'm a very competitive person, 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:52.840 but I try not to put that in music. That's 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:54.280 why I play a lot of golf, I play a 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:57.839 lot of fantasy sports. I'm really competitive and I love 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.080 beating other people in a non harmed, full manner. And 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.880 uh and with music, though, with music, everybody should win. 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.199 You know. It's like when we first got started. Uh, 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.520 we're back in the early eighties, the music that what 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:14.359 was became indie rock was a reaction to the stifled 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:19.120 playlists of commercial radio, the the really you know, corporate 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.960 aspects of everything you heard on the radio, and all 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.640 the bands that we ran into on these you know 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.240 circuits that we were creating and they were creating, and 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:28.800 all the music we were making to play on this 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.920 brand new format of college radio. We were all in 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.439 that together. We were all. You know, there's no it's 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.840 not a zero sum game. That's the great thing about music. 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.480 Everybody can win. And you know with golf it isn't 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:43.440 is it isn't quite the same. But but that's the 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.520 difference there is. There is no you don't have to 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.080 be you don't have to beat somebody to win at music. 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.360 The songwriting process is always fasting me because you know, 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.560 Michael I, when we type our stories, we're just alone 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.599 in our little silos. That there might be some collaboration 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:01.920 in the back and with an editor and you might 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.800 tweak a passage here there, but it's really your own 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:09.440 individual creation. But you know, songwriting the alchemy between the 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.480 words and the music, and you have all these different 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:15.360 personalities together in the band and someone has to write 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.280 the words, but I know there's a lot of tweaking 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.160 along the way and and the rhythm and the bridges 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.840 and all that. Like it amazes me, you know. Michael 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.560 Stipe always seemed like a guy who was a poet 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:30.480 at heart and tremendously gifted and possibly little headstrong. Can 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.720 you speak to just how colplicated is to build a 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:37.920 song together as a collaboration. We were really lucky in 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:43.000 that aspect of the process because, Uh, Peter and Bill 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.160 and I would write the music, you know, sometimes alone, 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.320 sometimes together, Uh, And then we would all af forget 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.920 together and we'd show everybody what we had and we 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.480 would work on those songs together. And then Michael would 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:57.800 would take a tape home and work on his stuff 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.800 by himself, or he would sometimes not be at the practice, 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.920 which he really didn't need to be there, and the 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:05.760 three of us would whip these songs into shape and 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:07.400 then give him a tape and he would sit there 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.760 and write that by himself. So we were really fortunate 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:15.320 that we had a really nice division of labor um. Fortunately, 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:17.960 Michael such a great lyricist that we had. You know, 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.040 there was very very few occasions where anyone said, I 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.520 don't like that, you know, please change it or please 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:24.880 do this. I mean I can count them on one 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.680 hand the times that that ever happened. So we were 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:29.200 just really lucky that we were all good at what 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:31.600 we did, and we all had a, if not an 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:35.760 intuitive understanding, certainly a learned understanding of of the process 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:38.680 and how it works. Peter's a rock historian. I am 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.720 to a lesser degree. So we knew all the pitfalls 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.760 that were built into this, all the problems that could develop, 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:46.360 and we tried to head those off at the past. 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.080 One of the things is Peter said early on, we're 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.120 going to split the songwriting four ways. Everybody gets equal 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:54.840 credit for every song we write. And I said, well, 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:57.160 you know, I don't want to do that. I said, 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:58.720 if I write a great song, I want everybody to 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:00.560 know it. It's not about the me. I just want 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.320 the credit. So he said, yeah, I get that. He said, 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.800 I understand that, but but but there there are three 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.280 things that will break up a band, and money is 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:11.960 at the top of the list. And so if you've 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:13.840 got one or two guys writing all the songs and 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.280 getting all the publishing money, and the other guy or 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:17.920 two guys or girls. What I have you a using 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:22.400 guys as as my reference. Um, then then that causes problems, 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.400 if not sooner than later. So we just you know, 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:28.480 nipped that one in the bud and split it all equally, 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.560 which is the great one of the greatest decisions we 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.480 ever made. It actually turned out to be true because 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.800 we all did, uh contribute to the process. So so 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:38.760 let me sure I understand that you guys would write 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:43.200 the entire sound to the song, and then Michael would 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.520 have to channel that energy and that vibe in into 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:50.880 the words themselves, and there was not any back and forth. Well, 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:52.760 it's I think it's very different than the way most 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.240 people do it. I think for a lot of especially 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.120 singer songwriter soloists, but even within bands, a lot of 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.320 times the words come first and then you try to, uh, 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:03.520 you know, build the music around that. But for us, 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:05.520 and I think one of the reasons that we were 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.960 so consistently good, one of the reasons is that we 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.879 had to like the song when it was just in music. 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:14.720 You know, you can have a really mediocre piece of music, 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:16.760 but if you put great lyrics and melody to it, 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.159 you've you've got a song. But what we did is 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.760 we already had songs that were great in our minds 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.040 anyway before we ever gave them to Michael, So everything 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.879 he did to them just added to the quality of 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.399 the peace, and I think that was certainly one of 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.280 our strengths. Jeff, what was r EM like in the 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.680 nineties when you were coming up in Australia? Was did 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.480 Australians grab I know, I know the band played there eventually. 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:41.800 I don't know how early on, but when do you 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.800 recall becoming aware of the band? Absolutely, we were all 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:48.640 right and we're pretty big time. I think Mark went, 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:50.159 I don't know how much you saw in Australia, but 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.120 I think it was a lot. Um. Yeah, I think 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.679 our charts kind of followed the US, you know, I 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:01.280 mean we kind of Australia sort of that mid between 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.960 the following the English and following the American music, you 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.639 know what I mean that I am sort of transcended. 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.200 All of that was a pretty worldwide man from our perspective, 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.840 it was really big. I'm actually the most part of 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.920 interested in Mike is why are you a gear junkie? 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:22.240 Music like basses and golf? And also, I mean both 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.240 I think dabbling guitar like I have quite a lot 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.280 you end up if you really and being fortunate enough 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:29.920 that I've had a little bit of money and met 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.560 some cool people along the way. Um, why don't you 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.680 start getting into guitars. You can take a pretty big 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.800 deep dive into the equipment. And I found that the 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.639 older the guitar, the more fun it was to play. Um. 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.000 And it's there's a lot of parallels I think with 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.400 golf clubs too. I think, how how do you feel 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.160 about guitars? Do you I mean, do you love them? 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:51.720 And do you like the older ones better? Do you 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.240 think technology has taken a soul out of it? Wow? 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.000 You know you You've hit on a lot of really 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:02.280 important topics in that in that one. Uh speech there 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.959 the yes older sorry college speech, but older, Yes, I 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.600 like older better. Um. One reason I didn't really become 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.199 a total gear head and guitar nerds because I just 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.640 know what a rabbit hole it can be. I mean, 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.240 once you start getting into you know, gear and guitars, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.359 you can just you can just do deep dives for 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.439 the rest of your life on it and always be 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.359 searching and always be looking and always be buying more guitars, 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:27.800 and and I knew that if I let myself do that, 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.360 I'd just be trapped forever. And and you know, you've 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.439 gotta have somewhere to put the dang things anyway, So 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:35.520 I tried not to go too far down the rabbit hole. 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:37.720 But yeah, I mean, you gotta have you gotta find 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.600 what works for you. Um, you gotta find what you like. 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:42.919 I try to have, like what I shows you up 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.840 there on the wall. I've got a Gibson s g uh, 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.520 Gibson less Paul, really nice Fender strap, the Kenny Wayne 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:51.720 Shepherd model. I played with Kenny Wayne in some shows, 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:53.639 and he's got a great And then there's an Airline 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.680 three humbucking pickup guitar that, Jeff, you might really enjoy 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:01.200 if you've ever checked out an airline guitar. So, um, yeah, 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.480 your head kind of. But but it's just I just 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:06.880 can't retain that much knowledge. So I never went that deep. 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.240 But I will say something funny about equipment. Um, I've 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.600 got a full set that I've managed to hold onto 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.760 of uh, Tommy Armor eight forty two. I think the 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:20.840 silver Scots from Michael I probably used them with you sometimes, right, 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:24.320 And so I couldn't find my other clubs were in 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.240 the shop or I couldn't find them, and they still 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:28.719 have steel shafts. So I went out to play around 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:30.760 with these forty two with steel shafts, and by the 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.240 fifteenth hole, my wrists were just killing me. I could 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.480 barely swing the club because those the steel shafts were 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:41.439 just killing me. So older is better in a sense. 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.480 But you've got to embrace the technology because it you know, 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.000 it'll it'll fend off some pain and certainly give you 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.040 a little more distance. Talking about the alon, so the 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:53.840