Speaker 1: Golf. Is that they anything in golf that doesn't change,
Speaker 1: anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man
Speaker 1: a one time winner on the PGA Tour? The point, Alan,
Speaker 1: is he didn't go Hollywood. You Need a Fourth? Well,
Speaker 1: before we get started with this episode, I will say
Speaker 1: that our guest is a golf lover who's very adept
Speaker 1: with musical instrument And have you ever seen those videos
Speaker 1: of Echo ambassador Eric van Ruin playing the guitar like
Speaker 1: he can actually shred? Yeah, he's a neat, stylish guy
Speaker 1: we've had around him for a while. Or having such
Speaker 1: a beautiful golf swing and be able to play a
Speaker 1: guitar like that, I'm deeply jealous. And somehow no one
Speaker 1: can make joggers the cool, but Eric van Ruin does,
Speaker 1: partly because he's got the right shoes. Echo Footwear, who's
Speaker 1: a sponsor of this podcast. We love Echo, we love music.
Speaker 1: Let's get to this Need a Fourth Hello, and welcome
Speaker 1: back to an other Need a Fourth podcast. This Alan
Speaker 1: Schipnik my co hosts Jeff Ogilvie and Michael Bamberger. We
Speaker 1: take turns surprising each other with a mystery guest. Today,
Speaker 1: Michael has provided said person do you want to Dr Bamberger?
Speaker 1: Do you wanna give us a few hints about who
Speaker 1: they might be? Sure? Uh, today's guest is one of
Speaker 1: the wittiest and most intelligent people I know. He has
Speaker 1: as Jeff has traveled the world playing golf and carrying
Speaker 1: a lug of clubs. This guy has traveled the world
Speaker 1: with the tools of his straight But he only I
Speaker 1: don't know the answer, but he only travels, probably with
Speaker 1: about three or four of his instruments. He has logged.
Speaker 1: He's he's not a likely candidate. That would be an understandment.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say he's not a likely cannic. Get
Speaker 1: to every get in the world golf all of him,
Speaker 1: I would say that ship has sailed. But he is
Speaker 1: in the rock and roll He is in the rock
Speaker 1: and roll Hall of Fame. Um, Alan, you may already know. Well,
Speaker 1: I have an advantage because I know you have habits
Speaker 1: and your friendships. Uh. If his initials beginning with the
Speaker 1: T like as in bow, no interest, no interesting, good thought,
Speaker 1: very good thought, and perhaps for for another day, he shared,
Speaker 1: now this will be this will be tough for Jeff
Speaker 1: and easy brown. He shares the initials with an iconic
Speaker 1: New York Yankee, even though his own baseball tastes run
Speaker 1: to the Atlanta Braves forming the Milwaukee Braves, but his
Speaker 1: affection for them, I think is very much sure to
Speaker 1: say of that he grew up in, which is Georgia
Speaker 1: is just getting too easy for you? Is this with
Speaker 1: that baseball player being Mickey Mantle? The baseball player would
Speaker 1: be Mickey Mantle? I think that that makes her history
Speaker 1: guest perhaps Mike Mills, but I'd be correct, Yes, our guestory,
Speaker 1: our mr guests Mr Mike Mills. Uh often from here
Speaker 1: he is Hey, I love it, Hey guys. Uh. For
Speaker 1: those who don't know, and most too, Mike Mills is
Speaker 1: the bassist for for R E. M and Uh a
Speaker 1: great friend to too many of us who hang around
Speaker 1: golf courses and Mike and I have logged a lot
Speaker 1: of time at Augusta National and on various golf courses.
Speaker 1: And you can see Mike at the Athens Country Club, Uh,
Speaker 1: applying his other trades. It's sometimes in the woods and Uh, anyway, Mike,
Speaker 1: it's a great, great pleasure to have you here. Uh,
Speaker 1: Alan have you met Michael along the way? No, surprisingly not,
Speaker 1: I know you guys have been friends forever and and
Speaker 1: Mike is a is an enthusiast. But h or do
Speaker 1: we have a quick conversation at Augusta once? It's entirely
Speaker 1: possible that would have be have been on the courser
Speaker 1: at t Bones, which is my unofficial home. Yeah they're
Speaker 1: in Augusta. Yeah that, but never spent any quality time,
Speaker 1: much to my chagrin. But your your legend proceeds you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for doing this, This is this is great. Well,
Speaker 1: there's still time we can hang at the next master's
Speaker 1: and uh, and Mike, you wouldn't know this, but Jeff
Speaker 1: Jeff is in a hotel. Jeff Ogilvy, an assistant captain
Speaker 1: on the President's Cup team this year, is in a
Speaker 1: hotel room. Uh in Tribeca, where I know you've blogged
Speaker 1: a lot of time. Uh, Mike, Mike is a student
Speaker 1: of the better hotels. Like he will flat out say
Speaker 1: to me, this is way above your pay grade. You're
Speaker 1: never sniffing such and such a hotel. I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1: But so, Mike, you wouldn't know this, But but Jeff
Speaker 1: Jeff often does this from home. And there are no
Speaker 1: there are no nods to his long and distinguished profession
Speaker 1: in golf. Um, but you do see a an acoustic
Speaker 1: guitar standing in the corner um of his office, It's
Speaker 1: actually less. It's actually a Gibson less pole Marchael whoa
Speaker 1: excellent even better. It looks better than it sounds when
Speaker 1: I play it. There's fine up there. I'm curious, you know,
Speaker 1: for for for for Jeff and Mike, is there is
Speaker 1: a rivalry between the bassist and the guitarist you tube,
Speaker 1: does one look down upon the other or what? What?
Speaker 1: What is that dynamic? Like? Well, only a friendly sort
Speaker 1: of rivalry. I mean we make fun of their little
Speaker 1: bitty strings. Uh, it's like anybody can play those tiny
Speaker 1: little things. Takes a man to play big fat bass strings.
Speaker 1: But no, I mean I love to play guitar too.
Speaker 1: And and you know, a band of all bass players
Speaker 1: would be pretty boring. Jeff, Who's who's the most famous
Speaker 1: musician You've ever jammed with? I haven't. I've jammed with
Speaker 1: them all on YouTube on my but um, I haven't
Speaker 1: never jamming. I'm a very private guitarist. I'll be um,
Speaker 1: we're gonna have a We're gonna have a game of
Speaker 1: I'd be a probably a twelve handicapped guitar was probably
Speaker 1: so Mark, what's your golf handicap? We could compare off skills. Uh,
Speaker 1: let's let's say you're probably a better guitar player than
Speaker 1: I am a golfer. I'm currently riding about a sixteen
Speaker 1: seven sixteen seven index. I I just I just don't play,
Speaker 1: uh consistently enough to keep it down. I got down
Speaker 1: to fourteen at one point when I was actually hitting it.
Speaker 1: But um, I'm just you know, I just don't have
Speaker 1: the time to get out there. If I got out
Speaker 1: there two or three times a week, I could probably
Speaker 1: get it back to a fourteen. But it's it's hard
Speaker 1: to find the time. Mike, what was your first love
Speaker 1: baseball or golf? And how did you find your way
Speaker 1: to golf? Uh? Well, baseball, it was my love ever
Speaker 1: since I was, you know, kid listening to Chipe. I
Speaker 1: put the little transistor radio under my pillow at night
Speaker 1: and listened to the Braves, you know, especially when they're
Speaker 1: you know, they're in the West Division. So I was
Speaker 1: listening to a lot of West Coast games, which kept
Speaker 1: me up really late, which probably explains why it was
Speaker 1: so easy to be a musician because I'm just used
Speaker 1: to be an up late anyway, Um, golf I got
Speaker 1: my dad got me into golf, and I was about fourteen.
Speaker 1: I played for a couple of years and I really
Speaker 1: loved it. But then, you know, once I went to
Speaker 1: at to school and got on the road, there was
Speaker 1: neither time nor money uh to play golf unfortunately. And
Speaker 1: then later on in the in the musical career, we
Speaker 1: we managed to have some money and find some time
Speaker 1: and I was able to play some really cool places
Speaker 1: on tour. Was there a period where where being a
Speaker 1: musician who loved golf was not cool? And did did
Speaker 1: did that that public opinion shift at all? I get uh?
Speaker 1: And how did your bandmates take your your obsession? Um? Well,
Speaker 1: my manager and Bill Berry the drummer, and our manager
Speaker 1: Burtish down so they both played, so we always had uh.
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't a complete ostracization. Ostracization for wanting
Speaker 1: to play golf. You know, golf. Um, you know, back
Speaker 1: in the back in the eighties when I was playing it,
Speaker 1: golf had a lot of heavy baggage. It was a
Speaker 1: very at the time, it was a very elitist sport. Uh.
Speaker 1: It certainly no longer is, which is great, but it
Speaker 1: was at the time, and and you got it. And
Speaker 1: the clothes were just bad. I mean they were bad.
Speaker 1: There's just no getting around it. The sands of belt pants.
Speaker 1: Uh you know it was it was all the rage
Speaker 1: but that but anyway, um so I didn't care. I
Speaker 1: played it. I loved it. There's just something so satisfying
Speaker 1: about making well when it happens, making a ball ago
Speaker 1: where you wanted to go and uh and I loved
Speaker 1: it and and there are just so many aspects of
Speaker 1: the game that I really enjoyed. But but and it's
Speaker 1: come so far since then. I mean, now you know,
Speaker 1: half the people I know that are musicians are also golfers.
Speaker 1: There's no stigma to it anymore. And people have found
Speaker 1: out how meditative it can be if you don't let
Speaker 1: your temper run away with you. Well said. I should
Speaker 1: note that Mike is newly and happily married before I
Speaker 1: tell the following story, because I think it relates to Macrohanish.
Speaker 1: But Mike and I have a great, great mutual friend,
Speaker 1: Burt of Sounds, through whom we met uh In about
Speaker 1: would be would be my guess, uh Alan wants into story.
Speaker 1: I think he was writing about Macrohanish and he was
Speaker 1: writing about the rough and Burt picked up on this
Speaker 1: line years ago. Forever can we get an edit? No? No, no, okay,
Speaker 1: bheaud He told me, I fucking knew it. I knew it.
Speaker 1: Burnis don't know. It's not we We didn't speak for it.
Speaker 1: Burnis told me this story today and he said, make
Speaker 1: sure you mentioned it to Allen. And I said, well,
Speaker 1: maybe it'll just come up on its own, So go ahead, Michael,
Speaker 1: you did that. What was was it Macaronis and Burtis
Speaker 1: is telling? Or did that come up? You didn't mention
Speaker 1: the course Alan? Is it Macaronish? Yes? He compared. Alan
Speaker 1: compared the rough at Macahonish too. I think the thick
Speaker 1: hair of a supermodel, a wild and Willie supermodel. The
Speaker 1: next day, I mean to which to which burgers, to
Speaker 1: which Burnis responded like he would know my my preamble,
Speaker 1: my preamble to all this is. And I'm not and
Speaker 1: I'm not asking Mike. Mike, I can either confirm nor
Speaker 1: deny that, but I can certainly I can certainly imagine it.
Speaker 1: That's part of it. That's part of being a writer,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to exact places they can't go otherwise.
Speaker 1: I was doing a service there. That's what songs are
Speaker 1: for and what and what articles and books are for. Absolutely. Jeff,
Speaker 1: of course has been doing this with with alan to
Speaker 1: Made for a number of months now. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that comes out when you hear Jeff talked
Speaker 1: about about golf and professional golf and tournament golf and
Speaker 1: trying to beat the course and trying to beat the
Speaker 1: other guy is that it is an odd blend of
Speaker 1: science and art, which of course it is. And of
Speaker 1: course being in a band like you are, in mastering
Speaker 1: an instrument as you have that too, is it's there's
Speaker 1: a lot of science to the playing of a musical instrument,
Speaker 1: and of course there's a lot of art too. And
Speaker 1: I wonder if you've ever given any thought to comparing.
Speaker 1: Is there some reason why so many musicians are drawn
Speaker 1: to golf and so many golfers are drawn to music.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's some connection there between that weird
Speaker 1: blend of art and science. I would, I would think so.
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly, when you say it, it becomes clear
Speaker 1: what those what those parameters are in order to become
Speaker 1: good at either one you have to understand how to
Speaker 1: do it. You have to put the work in. You
Speaker 1: have to know how to play the base or how
Speaker 1: to play the guitar, and to be your golfer, you
Speaker 1: have to know how to swing the club, how to
Speaker 1: hit the club, how to move your body. So all
Speaker 1: those scientific and technical aspects come into play. But once
Speaker 1: you've learned that, it's nothing without the imagination and the
Speaker 1: creativity to do something with it. Um. You know, Alan,
Speaker 1: I've been reading your book recently about phil and and
Speaker 1: just you know, that's the paradigm example of of someone
Speaker 1: who put the work in to learn how to do
Speaker 1: these things and then had the imagination and creativity to
Speaker 1: to apply that to whatever situation he put himself in. So,
Speaker 1: uh that that's in the same for music. I mean,
Speaker 1: you you can learn how to play guitar, but if
Speaker 1: you don't have that creative part of your brain, you'll
Speaker 1: never write a good song. Let's follow up and that
Speaker 1: what about the competitive side, uh, golfer professional golf first,
Speaker 1: coming to all different levels of competitiveness. Tiger and Jack
Speaker 1: Nicholas of course would be at one level, but then
Speaker 1: you have some you know, real soul type golfers like
Speaker 1: like Jeff Ogilvie Um, for whom the competition is part
Speaker 1: of it, but not the defining thing when you think
Speaker 1: about your own success. Uh, in a really cut throat,
Speaker 1: tough business, to what degree just competitiveness explain the success
Speaker 1: of the band? I would? I don't like to think
Speaker 1: of music as a competitive endeavor. People ask me to
Speaker 1: judge Battle of the Bands and things like that, and
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to do that because I
Speaker 1: don't want to say, well, you're the winner and you're
Speaker 1: the loser. That's that's sort of antithetical to what music is.
Speaker 1: You know. The guy who sings in the shower to
Speaker 1: me is a musician, just the same as as somebody
Speaker 1: who's playing medicine square garden um. But it's I enjoy
Speaker 1: I enjoy both aspects of it. I'm a very competitive person,
Speaker 1: but I try not to put that in music. That's
Speaker 1: why I play a lot of golf, I play a
Speaker 1: lot of fantasy sports. I'm really competitive and I love
Speaker 1: beating other people in a non harmed, full manner. And
Speaker 1: uh and with music, though, with music, everybody should win.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like when we first got started. Uh,
Speaker 1: we're back in the early eighties, the music that what
Speaker 1: was became indie rock was a reaction to the stifled
Speaker 1: playlists of commercial radio, the the really you know, corporate
Speaker 1: aspects of everything you heard on the radio, and all
Speaker 1: the bands that we ran into on these you know
Speaker 1: circuits that we were creating and they were creating, and
Speaker 1: all the music we were making to play on this
Speaker 1: brand new format of college radio. We were all in
Speaker 1: that together. We were all. You know, there's no it's
Speaker 1: not a zero sum game. That's the great thing about music.
Speaker 1: Everybody can win. And you know with golf it isn't
Speaker 1: is it isn't quite the same. But but that's the
Speaker 1: difference there is. There is no you don't have to
Speaker 1: be you don't have to beat somebody to win at music.
Speaker 1: The songwriting process is always fasting me because you know,
Speaker 1: Michael I, when we type our stories, we're just alone
Speaker 1: in our little silos. That there might be some collaboration
Speaker 1: in the back and with an editor and you might
Speaker 1: tweak a passage here there, but it's really your own
Speaker 1: individual creation. But you know, songwriting the alchemy between the
Speaker 1: words and the music, and you have all these different
Speaker 1: personalities together in the band and someone has to write
Speaker 1: the words, but I know there's a lot of tweaking
Speaker 1: along the way and and the rhythm and the bridges
Speaker 1: and all that. Like it amazes me, you know. Michael
Speaker 1: Stipe always seemed like a guy who was a poet
Speaker 1: at heart and tremendously gifted and possibly little headstrong. Can
Speaker 1: you speak to just how colplicated is to build a
Speaker 1: song together as a collaboration. We were really lucky in
Speaker 1: that aspect of the process because, Uh, Peter and Bill
Speaker 1: and I would write the music, you know, sometimes alone,
Speaker 1: sometimes together, Uh, And then we would all af forget
Speaker 1: together and we'd show everybody what we had and we
Speaker 1: would work on those songs together. And then Michael would
Speaker 1: would take a tape home and work on his stuff
Speaker 1: by himself, or he would sometimes not be at the practice,
Speaker 1: which he really didn't need to be there, and the
Speaker 1: three of us would whip these songs into shape and
Speaker 1: then give him a tape and he would sit there
Speaker 1: and write that by himself. So we were really fortunate
Speaker 1: that we had a really nice division of labor um. Fortunately,
Speaker 1: Michael such a great lyricist that we had. You know,
Speaker 1: there was very very few occasions where anyone said, I
Speaker 1: don't like that, you know, please change it or please
Speaker 1: do this. I mean I can count them on one
Speaker 1: hand the times that that ever happened. So we were
Speaker 1: just really lucky that we were all good at what
Speaker 1: we did, and we all had a, if not an
Speaker 1: intuitive understanding, certainly a learned understanding of of the process
Speaker 1: and how it works. Peter's a rock historian. I am
Speaker 1: to a lesser degree. So we knew all the pitfalls
Speaker 1: that were built into this, all the problems that could develop,
Speaker 1: and we tried to head those off at the past.
Speaker 1: One of the things is Peter said early on, we're
Speaker 1: going to split the songwriting four ways. Everybody gets equal
Speaker 1: credit for every song we write. And I said, well,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to do that. I said,
Speaker 1: if I write a great song, I want everybody to
Speaker 1: know it. It's not about the me. I just want
Speaker 1: the credit. So he said, yeah, I get that. He said,
Speaker 1: I understand that, but but but there there are three
Speaker 1: things that will break up a band, and money is
Speaker 1: at the top of the list. And so if you've
Speaker 1: got one or two guys writing all the songs and
Speaker 1: getting all the publishing money, and the other guy or
Speaker 1: two guys or girls. What I have you a using
Speaker 1: guys as as my reference. Um, then then that causes problems,
Speaker 1: if not sooner than later. So we just you know,
Speaker 1: nipped that one in the bud and split it all equally,
Speaker 1: which is the great one of the greatest decisions we
Speaker 1: ever made. It actually turned out to be true because
Speaker 1: we all did, uh contribute to the process. So so
Speaker 1: let me sure I understand that you guys would write
Speaker 1: the entire sound to the song, and then Michael would
Speaker 1: have to channel that energy and that vibe in into
Speaker 1: the words themselves, and there was not any back and forth. Well,
Speaker 1: it's I think it's very different than the way most
Speaker 1: people do it. I think for a lot of especially
Speaker 1: singer songwriter soloists, but even within bands, a lot of
Speaker 1: times the words come first and then you try to, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, build the music around that. But for us,
Speaker 1: and I think one of the reasons that we were
Speaker 1: so consistently good, one of the reasons is that we
Speaker 1: had to like the song when it was just in music.
Speaker 1: You know, you can have a really mediocre piece of music,
Speaker 1: but if you put great lyrics and melody to it,
Speaker 1: you've you've got a song. But what we did is
Speaker 1: we already had songs that were great in our minds
Speaker 1: anyway before we ever gave them to Michael, So everything
Speaker 1: he did to them just added to the quality of
Speaker 1: the peace, and I think that was certainly one of
Speaker 1: our strengths. Jeff, what was r EM like in the
Speaker 1: nineties when you were coming up in Australia? Was did
Speaker 1: Australians grab I know, I know the band played there eventually.
Speaker 1: I don't know how early on, but when do you
Speaker 1: recall becoming aware of the band? Absolutely, we were all
Speaker 1: right and we're pretty big time. I think Mark went,
Speaker 1: I don't know how much you saw in Australia, but
Speaker 1: I think it was a lot. Um. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: our charts kind of followed the US, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean we kind of Australia sort of that mid between
Speaker 1: the following the English and following the American music, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean that I am sort of transcended.
Speaker 1: All of that was a pretty worldwide man from our perspective,
Speaker 1: it was really big. I'm actually the most part of
Speaker 1: interested in Mike is why are you a gear junkie?
Speaker 1: Music like basses and golf? And also, I mean both
Speaker 1: I think dabbling guitar like I have quite a lot
Speaker 1: you end up if you really and being fortunate enough
Speaker 1: that I've had a little bit of money and met
Speaker 1: some cool people along the way. Um, why don't you
Speaker 1: start getting into guitars. You can take a pretty big
Speaker 1: deep dive into the equipment. And I found that the
Speaker 1: older the guitar, the more fun it was to play. Um.
Speaker 1: And it's there's a lot of parallels I think with
Speaker 1: golf clubs too. I think, how how do you feel
Speaker 1: about guitars? Do you I mean, do you love them?
Speaker 1: And do you like the older ones better? Do you
Speaker 1: think technology has taken a soul out of it? Wow?
Speaker 1: You know you You've hit on a lot of really
Speaker 1: important topics in that in that one. Uh speech there
Speaker 1: the yes older sorry college speech, but older, Yes, I
Speaker 1: like older better. Um. One reason I didn't really become
Speaker 1: a total gear head and guitar nerds because I just
Speaker 1: know what a rabbit hole it can be. I mean,
Speaker 1: once you start getting into you know, gear and guitars,
Speaker 1: you can just you can just do deep dives for
Speaker 1: the rest of your life on it and always be
Speaker 1: searching and always be looking and always be buying more guitars,
Speaker 1: and and I knew that if I let myself do that,
Speaker 1: I'd just be trapped forever. And and you know, you've
Speaker 1: gotta have somewhere to put the dang things anyway, So
Speaker 1: I tried not to go too far down the rabbit hole.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, you gotta have you gotta find
Speaker 1: what works for you. Um, you gotta find what you like.
Speaker 1: I try to have, like what I shows you up
Speaker 1: there on the wall. I've got a Gibson s g uh,
Speaker 1: Gibson less Paul, really nice Fender strap, the Kenny Wayne
Speaker 1: Shepherd model. I played with Kenny Wayne in some shows,
Speaker 1: and he's got a great And then there's an Airline
Speaker 1: three humbucking pickup guitar that, Jeff, you might really enjoy
Speaker 1: if you've ever checked out an airline guitar. So, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: your head kind of. But but it's just I just
Speaker 1: can't retain that much knowledge. So I never went that deep.
Speaker 1: But I will say something funny about equipment. Um, I've
Speaker 1: got a full set that I've managed to hold onto
Speaker 1: of uh, Tommy Armor eight forty two. I think the
Speaker 1: silver Scots from Michael I probably used them with you sometimes, right,
Speaker 1: And so I couldn't find my other clubs were in
Speaker 1: the shop or I couldn't find them, and they still
Speaker 1: have steel shafts. So I went out to play around
Speaker 1: with these forty two with steel shafts, and by the
Speaker 1: fifteenth hole, my wrists were just killing me. I could
Speaker 1: barely swing the club because those the steel shafts were
Speaker 1: just killing me. So older is better in a sense.
Speaker 1: But you've got to embrace the technology because it you know,
Speaker 1: it'll it'll fend off some pain and certainly give you
Speaker 1: a little more distance. Talking about the alon, so the
Speaker 1: alans correct me if I'm wrong. Is the ale on
Speaker 1: the guitar that Jack Watt might find in the well
Speaker 1: in might findest but played really well in the watch shops,
Speaker 1: the red thing? You know it might be because it's
Speaker 1: certainly I'm looking at mine. It certainly looks like the
Speaker 1: one he used to play here, you might you might
Speaker 1: well be right about that. That sounds right, because it
Speaker 1: certainly sounds like an airline. And there's that great uh.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever watched it. I don't
Speaker 1: know if guys like you watched this, but guitar junkies do.
Speaker 1: The that documentary they made it might get loud with
Speaker 1: Jimmy Page and Jack Watton the edge, I think it was.
Speaker 1: I have not seen that. Yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean you're it's probably sort of Uh, it's like a
Speaker 1: golf magazine for a professional golfer. We don't read golf magazines,
Speaker 1: and you probably don't watch guitar document I wanted. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I want to see him. I definitely want to.
Speaker 1: Jack Watt's got this great quote. He's got this great
Speaker 1: quote in there, and he says it'd be easy to
Speaker 1: go out and buy a new less pall or a
Speaker 1: new stratocaster, but that doesn't really make you a more
Speaker 1: creative person. He wanted to buy sort of a crappy guitar,
Speaker 1: so he had to dig the sound out of it.
Speaker 1: He didn't want the guitar to make his sound. He
Speaker 1: wanted to sort of an average crappy guittar. For what
Speaker 1: I understanding, the Airline is kind of a crappy guitar,
Speaker 1: and he wanted to it. I have to go. I
Speaker 1: fond it. I think he's a wise man, uh and
Speaker 1: incredible musician, but he's also very wise. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's like, you know, I think the same thing
Speaker 1: with the golf. It's I'm really glad that that I
Speaker 1: learned on You know, the technology today is just so astounding.
Speaker 1: Uh that if you if you start out with that technology,
Speaker 1: it just makes you think you're better than you are
Speaker 1: and you don't really You may not put the work
Speaker 1: in to really get where you want to go with it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I I I totally agree with that remark.
Speaker 1: I love the Airline. No, it's not the best guitar
Speaker 1: ever made, but if you can figure it out, you
Speaker 1: can make it sound good. And that's that's where your
Speaker 1: create creativity comes into play. That's kind of like why
Speaker 1: pros use blades, right, Jeff, Like you want the feedback.
Speaker 1: You want to know the missits. You want to know
Speaker 1: where the sweet spot is. If I hold like a
Speaker 1: blade three iron and it makes me fearful. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I need the technology. But you know, better players they
Speaker 1: want less margin for air. I guess it's the same
Speaker 1: in their guitar. I think the less the less the
Speaker 1: club helps you, the more you have to get fonder. Yeah. Like,
Speaker 1: if you want to fix your putting, you're not gonna
Speaker 1: get a big mallet. You gotta get a bull's on.
Speaker 1: I went. I found my dad passed away some you know,
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, but I found he had a is
Speaker 1: it a Ben Hogan steel shafted one iron? And so
Speaker 1: I took it to the range and it was just
Speaker 1: it was like it was I don't know, it was
Speaker 1: like trying to hit it with an automobile. It was like,
Speaker 1: it's just nothing worked. I couldn't. I couldn't get it
Speaker 1: wording the foot off the ground. It hurt my hands,
Speaker 1: it hurt everything to hit the ball. I was like,
Speaker 1: holy cow, how did these guys play with these and
Speaker 1: and you know, devastate the course with these clubs. I
Speaker 1: couldn't even get the ball, you know, thirty ft down
Speaker 1: the fairway. Was it was kind of amazing. Have you
Speaker 1: ruled out the possibility that that's the club that Hogan
Speaker 1: played until the seventies Second Green and in the nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty Mike I would I would love to think that,
Speaker 1: I would true. Was it a one iron? Did he
Speaker 1: hit There's a debate whether it's a one arned one
Speaker 1: and a half or two? Uh. Some people think it
Speaker 1: was a two bent to a one and a half,
Speaker 1: and some people think it was the other way, but
Speaker 1: her Wind and Hogan went to their graves, never really
Speaker 1: settling that very important debate. Wow, that's that's awesome. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that might have been the club there. I'm sure my
Speaker 1: dad found it somewhere. It's funny how how mythology makes
Speaker 1: it a one iron. It sounds so much more impressed
Speaker 1: than two iron, even though it would be an incredibly
Speaker 1: hard shot with the two iron back then also, but
Speaker 1: one iron is just so much more macho. I don't
Speaker 1: know the old the old joke, if you get caught
Speaker 1: out on the course in a lightning storm, you hold
Speaker 1: up a one iron because even God can't hit a
Speaker 1: one iron. So good I love that. Uh, while we're
Speaker 1: at it, my gud, do you know the last thing
Speaker 1: that the drummer said to his bandmates before he was
Speaker 1: kicked out of the band, see you at the burger king? No,
Speaker 1: that would be good though. Here's news. Here are some
Speaker 1: new songs I've been working on. That's cold, Michael, that's
Speaker 1: that's cold. Well, we're not drummers here, Um, Mike, what Mike,
Speaker 1: what was your attitude about playing golf on the road
Speaker 1: when the band was touring? Well, I did it as
Speaker 1: often as possible, but the longer the tour goes on,
Speaker 1: the more at a premium sleep becomes so your your
Speaker 1: days off. I'm not an early riser anyway, so playing
Speaker 1: on day of show was pretty much out, and on
Speaker 1: days off it just got to the point where all
Speaker 1: you wanted to do was sleep in and relax and
Speaker 1: stay in the hotel room, or maybe we walk around
Speaker 1: whatever town you were in. But but getting up early.
Speaker 1: I wish I'd been such a fiend that I would
Speaker 1: get up at seven o'clock and go play golf. But
Speaker 1: there's just no way when you do a show the
Speaker 1: night before and you finished at eleven o'clock and you're
Speaker 1: completely jacked up and wired, and there's all these fun
Speaker 1: things to go do there. You know. I was never
Speaker 1: disciplined enough to go home and go to bed and
Speaker 1: then get up and play golf. But I did a
Speaker 1: few times. I got to play some cool play just
Speaker 1: in Australia. UM played a bit in Perth because we
Speaker 1: had a we had a I guess we went down
Speaker 1: there early before the start of the tour and played
Speaker 1: at uh I don't know the course in Perth, but
Speaker 1: they had these enormous bats that were like long hanging
Speaker 1: in the trees next to the okay. And then my
Speaker 1: favorite part was I, of course, I sliced to drive
Speaker 1: off off the side of the fairway into a bunch
Speaker 1: of tree stumps, and I walked over there and as
Speaker 1: I got close, they started moving, and I was like,
Speaker 1: what the hell? I had hit my ball into the
Speaker 1: middle of a group of kangaroo and I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: excuse me, guys, excuse me. And they kind of hopped
Speaker 1: out of the way a little bit. And I walked
Speaker 1: up to my ball and they were all looking at
Speaker 1: me like who's this weirdo? And They've left me a
Speaker 1: little window and I hit out and I said thanks everybody,
Speaker 1: and I walked back on the course and they just
Speaker 1: sat there and looked at me like I was from Marks.
Speaker 1: It was really cool. Jeff, Jeff, where you want to
Speaker 1: listen to music on your way to the golf course
Speaker 1: or what was your at you about mixing golf and music?
Speaker 1: I think they mix. Yeah. I used to listen to
Speaker 1: it um and I'd get superstitious about the album that
Speaker 1: I'd be listening to all the music I listened to,
Speaker 1: because if I played well, I was listening to it
Speaker 1: all week. It's kind of different now because it's you're
Speaker 1: just shuffling Spotify or something, so like, I'm not choosing.
Speaker 1: But back when you had to choose the CD and
Speaker 1: put it in the the fewick like CD player that
Speaker 1: we used to drive for the course every day, I
Speaker 1: pick one for the week, Um, led Zeppelin too or something,
Speaker 1: and if I played well, and then I'd have to
Speaker 1: listen to it every single time before every tournament until
Speaker 1: I've proven that it doesn't work anymore, and then don't
Speaker 1: have to move on to something else. Um, But it's
Speaker 1: kind of nice. I missed those days when you would
Speaker 1: have a CD in the car and you would just
Speaker 1: do it, would just do laps um radio hit okay,
Speaker 1: computer did laps in my car for a really long
Speaker 1: time for some reason. I just couldn't get off that thing,
Speaker 1: and I just, um, you don't do that anymore. You
Speaker 1: pick and choose your song. You're almost not finishing songs
Speaker 1: anymore because you can just get to the next one
Speaker 1: and your phone is shuffling it for you and it's
Speaker 1: just picking you whatever you want. I missed those days
Speaker 1: where I used to put in an album and just
Speaker 1: have it do laps. In my car for a week.
Speaker 1: You know it's uh, But yeah, I think it's fantastic,
Speaker 1: and I've been a bad habit. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: a great thing for practice. I mean, I know it's
Speaker 1: a modern thing for the kids to listen to headphones
Speaker 1: when your partner practice UM, But as an indulgence every
Speaker 1: now and then, I like to do it because I
Speaker 1: just practice some great music. Just buy yourself on the
Speaker 1: range with music in your head is just a Really
Speaker 1: that's one of my favorite things to do. You think
Speaker 1: it's it's not a good idea because because then in
Speaker 1: competition that's taken away from you and and whatever emotions
Speaker 1: the music and still didn't have been have been robbed
Speaker 1: in that competitive setting. I think, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that there's probably some benefit to sort of keeps your
Speaker 1: mind active so you don't overthink your technique and stuff.
Speaker 1: I think that's that could be pretty handy. But I
Speaker 1: think golf is the game of awareness, and I think
Speaker 1: you're taking you're dulling. You're completely dulling one of your senses.
Speaker 1: And I think sound is really related to feel um,
Speaker 1: and so I think you're sort of you're not using
Speaker 1: your all your capabilities when you're when you kill one
Speaker 1: of your senses. I think, um, another, look, it's the
Speaker 1: modern thing, and I might be wrong. I mean, I
Speaker 1: know the young kids probably think I'm crazy because they
Speaker 1: can't practice without headphones, right and I and I see it.
Speaker 1: A lot of guys on tour like it because it
Speaker 1: keeps them in a little bubble and no one talks
Speaker 1: to them. And I mean maybe they don't even have
Speaker 1: any sound in their mean. Patrick really used to love
Speaker 1: practicing with headphone practice, I know, what so so no
Speaker 1: one would talk to him. I think, Um, it's just yeah,
Speaker 1: it's whatever floats your boat, I guess. But I always
Speaker 1: found that I didn't get as much out of the practice,
Speaker 1: but I did enjoy the practice. You know, I could
Speaker 1: hit balls all day if I was listening to good music,
Speaker 1: and I would never get bored, you know, But if
Speaker 1: I take them out, then I'd probably get bored a
Speaker 1: little quick. I want to go to something else. Did
Speaker 1: you ever think, Jeff, when you were picking the music
Speaker 1: about tempo and rhythm? Because to me, I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: you know, both music and golf are all about tempo
Speaker 1: and rhythm, and you know, it's like it's like picking
Speaker 1: the right work music. If it's too fast or too slow,
Speaker 1: you know, your your body doesn't do what you really
Speaker 1: wanted to do. And it seems like I might be
Speaker 1: worried that if you you know, you obviously not playing
Speaker 1: any death metal when you're trying to put but uh,
Speaker 1: it seems like something you might have to think about.
Speaker 1: Like Kevin, Kevin Struelman, I was playing with him at
Speaker 1: a program right before I hit his ball. The worst
Speaker 1: day of my life on the golf course. Um, but uh,
Speaker 1: you know he he keeps a metronome in his head,
Speaker 1: sometimes musical in terms of his putting tempo, and that
Speaker 1: really helped me when he told me that, Yeah, hit
Speaker 1: Kevin Strulman's golf ball. No, it's so, it's so, we're playing.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a program. It's not it's not it's
Speaker 1: not real. He's just practicing. I go up to the spotter.
Speaker 1: I didn't throw him under the bus at the time,
Speaker 1: but I'm throwing him under the bus now. He pointed
Speaker 1: at the ball, he said, you got you got two
Speaker 1: hundred to clear that whatever. Because I outdrove Kevin, I
Speaker 1: caught the hill and it was twenty yards ahead. So
Speaker 1: I just assumed that had to be my ball, because
Speaker 1: surely the pro was yards ahead of me and it
Speaker 1: looked like my mark on the ball. I didn't look
Speaker 1: close enough, so the guy the spotter says, okay, this
Speaker 1: is yours. You got this? So I hit it and
Speaker 1: Kevin came up. We couldn't find his ball, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh no, you did not just make the cardinal mistake
Speaker 1: of any pro am ever, so hopefully he's uh here,
Speaker 1: gives me for it. But boy, I felt lower than
Speaker 1: a caterpillar's tonails at that moment. That was just bad.
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Speaker 1: have some fun. We also have to pay the bills
Speaker 1: here at the fire Pit Collective. So back to Nita fourth,
Speaker 1: if you could have a walk up song to the
Speaker 1: first t if that was allowed at a tournament and
Speaker 1: you have to pick one song that it distills your
Speaker 1: entire essence, what song would that be? I don't know.
Speaker 1: We thought about that, remember that would I do that
Speaker 1: at New Orleans? Now don't I? And the Zerich thing? Um?
Speaker 1: You know what, I don't know. I'll get back to
Speaker 1: it by the end of this. What do you think
Speaker 1: what would you walk up to? Well, it would probably
Speaker 1: be some nineties gangster wrap just to get me in
Speaker 1: the right frame of mind for competition, but that that
Speaker 1: might scandalize the crowds at tour events, So I don't
Speaker 1: know what. I'll give it a little further thought as well. Mike,
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk about alchemy as it
Speaker 1: relates to a band getting getting together and and Jeff
Speaker 1: you you can chime in on this too. But they
Speaker 1: used to say Ben Crunshaw, he couldn't play a course
Speaker 1: or even a hole that he didn't think it was
Speaker 1: a well constructed course of course their whole. Jeff was
Speaker 1: obviously well on his game, you know, playing great golf
Speaker 1: when you showed up at Wingfoot that year. But I
Speaker 1: would I would guess when he won the US opened. Uh,
Speaker 1: but I would guess that if we're a different course
Speaker 1: and his vibe wasn't exactly the same for it, um,
Speaker 1: it would have been a different week altogether. I remember, Mike,
Speaker 1: your forty birthday party. A great Athens band was there, Mike,
Speaker 1: I'm just blanking on the name, thank you, my love
Speaker 1: tractor and and uh, I had never heard the band before,
Speaker 1: just as spectacular acoustic mostly acoustic or maybe all acoustics sound.
Speaker 1: And I said to Mike, you know, how come you
Speaker 1: guys you know, both a great musicianship, and you guys
Speaker 1: made it and these guys didn't. And my part of me,
Speaker 1: if I don't have this exactly correct, but probably have
Speaker 1: the mood of it correct. And I think your answer was,
Speaker 1: you know, when we were coming together as a band,
Speaker 1: we were all good musicians and we got along well.
Speaker 1: But we didn't know is that Michael Pipe had charisma
Speaker 1: when we started playing, you know, for turnity gigs and
Speaker 1: what other little you know, early shows you had. It
Speaker 1: was a revelation. Um So, I wonder what role alchemy
Speaker 1: plays has played in your life Mike as a musician,
Speaker 1: and Jeff maybe for you as well, to what degree
Speaker 1: does alchemy play a role of Like you and the caddy,
Speaker 1: you and the playing partner, you and the golf course,
Speaker 1: everything just sort of coming together well as far as
Speaker 1: the band goes, chemistry is everything literally almost literally everything
Speaker 1: and there you can put four great musicians together, but
Speaker 1: if they don't have that indefinable thing, uh, then you know,
Speaker 1: there there there won't be any soul in what they
Speaker 1: put out. More than likely the fact that that you know,
Speaker 1: in R. E. M. We fed off each other's strength
Speaker 1: and strengths and weaknesses. We compensated for for those things.
Speaker 1: Um we just there was just something that happens when
Speaker 1: the four of us got together, and it was it
Speaker 1: was you know, it was magic. It was chemistry. You know,
Speaker 1: you could use any number of abstract words for it,
Speaker 1: but that's got to exist for a band to really
Speaker 1: be successful. There just has to be some energy that
Speaker 1: occurs only when those people are together, um, and that's
Speaker 1: what happened with us, and you can feel it sometimes.
Speaker 1: I mean we went to a friend of ours got
Speaker 1: married and we all went to the wedding. It was
Speaker 1: the first time the four of us had been in
Speaker 1: one place in some years and it was weird. I mean,
Speaker 1: we stood together and people just sort of backed away
Speaker 1: because there was this weird like force field around the
Speaker 1: four of us just standing in the same place. And
Speaker 1: I've never noticed it quite like that before, but but
Speaker 1: it was real. So for as far as bands go, yeah,
Speaker 1: you gotta have it or you're just wasting your time.
Speaker 1: It's just you for me, the golf for the golf
Speaker 1: call on your golf course and Cutty a little different,
Speaker 1: they're probably the same. But um, if it engaged me,
Speaker 1: I mean, Wingfoot just engaged me like it was just
Speaker 1: an unbelievable challenge and I just did enjoyed. It captured
Speaker 1: me from the first the first time, I mean the fifth,
Speaker 1: the first green up. Wingfoot doesn't capture your attention, then
Speaker 1: you're not really interested in golf, I don't think, um.
Speaker 1: And it just the more I get into it, like
Speaker 1: the old Course, the Master's Royal Melbourne, like those sort
Speaker 1: of courses. I just love playing because I just love
Speaker 1: the challenge. It doesn't matter if it's set up easy
Speaker 1: or hard that week. Um, it's just it asks you
Speaker 1: to hit more fun golf shots than most other golf
Speaker 1: courses do. If it asked me to hit really creative
Speaker 1: good asked me to hit golf shots that weren't sort
Speaker 1: of we're above and beyond the normal sort of everyday
Speaker 1: PG two a week, it just captured my attention more.
Speaker 1: And I think I enjoyed that challenge more and played well.
Speaker 1: And I think caddies are similar. I played my best
Speaker 1: with Squirrel, who was my caddy for Alistair. We should
Speaker 1: call him, but everyone will know him the Squirrel for
Speaker 1: about ten or twelve years, and I just loved playing
Speaker 1: golf with him. I just loved playing golf with him
Speaker 1: on my back. I just enjoyed it. Um. So I
Speaker 1: think the chemistry in that respect comes from just really
Speaker 1: enjoying each other's company and just it wasn't golf without
Speaker 1: him there, you know, I mean, it was uncomfortable. It's
Speaker 1: just a really good I just enjoyed the experience and
Speaker 1: loved how he carried and he clearly I guess he
Speaker 1: enjoyed working for me, and so it worked. I mean,
Speaker 1: you see it with Tiger and Stevie there for a while,
Speaker 1: much fun they were having those first few years doing it,
Speaker 1: and that Michael and Jordan have had their times. But
Speaker 1: how much fun they look like they're having those great partnerships. Um,
Speaker 1: I think they might not be explainable. Like Mark says
Speaker 1: in the band a minute, just all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you just get two people or four people or five
Speaker 1: people or whatever it is together and it's just the
Speaker 1: summer is greater than the that's greater than the adding
Speaker 1: up the parts. So I hope you say it, and
Speaker 1: it's just there's something special there. And I think most
Speaker 1: of it is just you love you just you just
Speaker 1: love doing what you do more when they're there, you know, So, Jeff,
Speaker 1: when I ask you, I mean, it's surely one of
Speaker 1: the most satisfying things about golf in general, wingfoot in particular.
Speaker 1: But you know, you never want to put yourself in trouble,
Speaker 1: but surely being able to be having to create a
Speaker 1: shot that is not your standard normal shot, having to
Speaker 1: create a shot and use that shot to get out
Speaker 1: of the trouble, that has to be one of the
Speaker 1: most satisfying things about playing a good competitive round of golf,
Speaker 1: is that, right? I think so? Yeah. I mean because
Speaker 1: the driver is a driver, right, Um, you sort of
Speaker 1: just a drive as a driver YDS is a seven on.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter really where you are. I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: the better the course and the tougher it is, you
Speaker 1: might have to do something special with it. Um, But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the shots off to the side. Yeah, the shades
Speaker 1: of gray, you know, it's the little fly alive slightly
Speaker 1: into the wind with a short one. It's like a
Speaker 1: lot trickier than it looks, and you've got to be
Speaker 1: careful because over the bag is bad and I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's just all those little infinite bits in between that
Speaker 1: are the really interesting thing about golf, not the black
Speaker 1: and white, just the driver up in the middlehead as
Speaker 1: far as you can. It's much more ah engaging and interesting.
Speaker 1: I think when you've got a yeah, you just got
Speaker 1: to level it up. I mean, there's a seven one
Speaker 1: into the first hole and just a normal basic golf course.
Speaker 1: It's like that's great yards at lants on a soft
Speaker 1: grain and stops. But then you get to the first
Speaker 1: hole at wingfoot or something, and it's seven nine. There's
Speaker 1: about nine levels on that grain, and if you hit
Speaker 1: on any one of them except the one that you
Speaker 1: want to be on, you're going to make a five
Speaker 1: or six. That's just that's a leveled up challenge. And
Speaker 1: I think if you're a competitive minded person. I'm not
Speaker 1: even a competitive minded person, just passionate for the for
Speaker 1: the sport and the sort of it's not about. There's
Speaker 1: no master in golf, and it's exactly the same as music.
Speaker 1: You don't master music. You just want to see how
Speaker 1: sort of much you can get into it. You know,
Speaker 1: how good you can, how good you can get at
Speaker 1: it um and what you can do and can you
Speaker 1: do anything new? Can you can you have had a
Speaker 1: better shot here than you did last time. So I
Speaker 1: don't know. I just find that it's all the area,
Speaker 1: the shades of gray and golf, to use a cliche,
Speaker 1: that are the interesting ones. Yeah, and coming up with something.
Speaker 1: Especially the funnest thing is a tournament golfer, I think
Speaker 1: is having it be dead and and knowing the announce
Speaker 1: as a sign you keep this guy's not getting this
Speaker 1: up and down, and you know the people with the
Speaker 1: guys in the crowd. They know you're not going to
Speaker 1: get up and down, but they're actually getting it up
Speaker 1: and down. Um, coming up with something special, that's one
Speaker 1: of the most satisfying things. But people don't think you
Speaker 1: could do something and doing it, um that that's the
Speaker 1: satisfying thing for me. That's funny because you know, talking
Speaker 1: about you know, Michael Stipe has that ability to connect
Speaker 1: with the crowd or whatever, that that star quality is
Speaker 1: that a lot of singers just don't have, Like I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: Jeff like, and you've talked about how a lot of golfers,
Speaker 1: you like, they'd like to show off. They like that
Speaker 1: that buzz from doing something for the crowd. But what's
Speaker 1: the other side of that? Are there are there really
Speaker 1: talented players who because they're introverts and because maybe they're
Speaker 1: loners or whatever their personality or their their background, they
Speaker 1: don't connect with the crowd. They don't feel the energy.
Speaker 1: And do you think that that's something that hurts some
Speaker 1: talented golfers in a way that it's hard to put
Speaker 1: your finger on. But when you were talking about, oh,
Speaker 1: this guy has such a great swing, you should have
Speaker 1: won more, you know, what was the missing piece. I mean,
Speaker 1: can it be the personality and they don't enjoy the
Speaker 1: crowd and the intensity, like as you know a big
Speaker 1: tournament that that walk from the green to the next
Speaker 1: tea people are screaming and shouting and then you're on
Speaker 1: the tea box and they're on top of you. Like,
Speaker 1: did you think that throws people off? I think there's
Speaker 1: definitely guys who are uncomfortable with that um side of things,
Speaker 1: and there's some guys that really lift up. I mean
Speaker 1: picking I'm a and Polter clearly like thrives. Guys like
Speaker 1: A and phil Um. They thrive the more people than
Speaker 1: the more sort of the more they can entertain, the
Speaker 1: more they sort of go well. But then when you
Speaker 1: get other ends of the spectrum, successful guys like Hogan,
Speaker 1: I don't think you really loved the crowd. Didn't you
Speaker 1: just love the sport? And he just wanted to hit
Speaker 1: great shots and just didn't understand why he didn't. He
Speaker 1: couldn't just hit better and better and better and better shots.
Speaker 1: It wasn't about impressing people phone it was about impressing himself,
Speaker 1: you know. Um, I think there's multiple different ways to
Speaker 1: do it. I don't know that if you can work
Speaker 1: out why some guys make it once some guys don't.
Speaker 1: You can probably write a better book than your last one,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you'll sell a few more. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna up. That's the question forever. And it's
Speaker 1: like what what makes people successful and what doesn't? I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a recipe of so many different ingredients.
Speaker 1: It's just totally intangible. But that's the fun part, right.
Speaker 1: I don't know, some guys really get the whole package. Though.
Speaker 1: Tiger clearly was the best golfer, and he got better
Speaker 1: when there was more people and the bigger the occasion,
Speaker 1: and the I mean said he was the same Arnold
Speaker 1: was clearly better when there was people around, you know. Um.
Speaker 1: And there's other guys who win small tournaments that never
Speaker 1: win big tournaments. And then there's guys like Brooks who
Speaker 1: only win big tournaments. You know, Um. Who is how
Speaker 1: it all places us together? We're all different. Something works
Speaker 1: for some gods that doesn't work for others. But it's
Speaker 1: such a it's such a relatively solitary endeavor. I mean, obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, you have your coaches and your caddy and
Speaker 1: everything that gets you to where you're going. Once you're
Speaker 1: out there, it's you and and all of I guess
Speaker 1: all of those things come into play. Whether you like
Speaker 1: the crowd noise, or whether you like that particular course
Speaker 1: or whatever. It's it's just all those little things. How
Speaker 1: you handle it, how you channel it to to use
Speaker 1: it to your advantage rather than letting it get in
Speaker 1: your kitchen and you know, distracting you. Um. I think
Speaker 1: golf as much as any other things that you know,
Speaker 1: maybe tennis is really all about channeling those things and
Speaker 1: using them to your advantage. And if you can't, you
Speaker 1: won't win. I think. So do you fund? Do you fund?
Speaker 1: Do you play better in front of paper? Or do
Speaker 1: you play better when you buy yourself? Well? As as
Speaker 1: far as the band goes, the crowd is so important. Um.
Speaker 1: We would go we would go to places and we'd
Speaker 1: be tired and hungover and not thrilled to be in
Speaker 1: this particular place, but the crowd was so glad to
Speaker 1: have us there that you know, and you know pretty
Speaker 1: quickly how it's going and you're like, holy cow, these
Speaker 1: guys are awesome. And then you want to give them
Speaker 1: the best show possible and they they can lift you up.
Speaker 1: The crowd can make you a better band. They can
Speaker 1: also make you crap. Uh. There are a couple of
Speaker 1: countries that that the audiences are just so dead. We
Speaker 1: used to Bill Berry and I used to moo at
Speaker 1: each other on the bad shows because the crowd are
Speaker 1: just like a bunch of cattle out there. Why are
Speaker 1: you even here? Um? But but those were you know, yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: the crowd is an essential part of of a live show.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you can. You can. You can rock out
Speaker 1: by yourself and you can rock out at rehearsal and
Speaker 1: be just amazing. But it's really those are just, you know,
Speaker 1: means to an end, and the end is playing the
Speaker 1: show and having having you and the crowd go on
Speaker 1: a journey together. And then uh and and like Peter said,
Speaker 1: when it's really all working, it's like walking on water.
Speaker 1: You literally you can't do anything wrong. Everything you do
Speaker 1: is exactly the thing you should have done. And some
Speaker 1: of those nights, I mean, they are just magically. You
Speaker 1: walk off stage and you're like, holy cow, that's that's
Speaker 1: the best thing that could ever happen to anyone. Can
Speaker 1: musicians choke? You know, you talk about athletes choking? Can
Speaker 1: can have you ever gone on stage and for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: like you couldn't summon the magic. Yes, absolutely, and you
Speaker 1: can't really see that coming. I mean you get up there.
Speaker 1: And sometimes the worst job in rock and roll is
Speaker 1: a monitor engineer. It's like it's like the drummer for
Speaker 1: spinal Tap. You know how the drummer for spinal Tap
Speaker 1: kept exploding and blowing up. Pe bands go through monitor
Speaker 1: engineers like you go through Kleenex at home, because it's
Speaker 1: your every every space is different, every song is different,
Speaker 1: and the monitor engineer has to deal with making you know,
Speaker 1: where everybody can hear what they need to hear. And
Speaker 1: some musicians can be really persnicket, to be persnicke about
Speaker 1: what they want to hear, and it's it's a hard
Speaker 1: job and if they don't get it right, or if
Speaker 1: if you know, or for example, like sometimes you'll have
Speaker 1: a show and some can I say, asshole, some asshole
Speaker 1: bought the tickets on StubHub for his girlfriend and he
Speaker 1: didn't want to be there, and he's sitting in the
Speaker 1: front row like this just board to tears and I've
Speaker 1: literally leaned over the stage and go, why are you here?
Speaker 1: Why are you even here? And he's and he's like,
Speaker 1: what are you talking to me? I said, because you're
Speaker 1: sucking up my show. You're you're you're sitting out there
Speaker 1: like a total pole, and it's you know, I can't
Speaker 1: have fun with you right in front of me looking
Speaker 1: like a bump on a log. So um. Anyway, Yes,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of things that can that can
Speaker 1: take you out of your comfort zone, and sometimes you
Speaker 1: can rise above it and sometimes you just don't. But
Speaker 1: the great thing about being in a band is even
Speaker 1: if you have a bad night, if everybody else has
Speaker 1: a pretty good night, the crowd will never know, and
Speaker 1: so you can you can come through it. Okay, Mike,
Speaker 1: you I'm I know you've played with a lot of
Speaker 1: well known golfers over the area. Bention Kevin Strielman, I
Speaker 1: know you played with Davis. I'm quite sure you've played
Speaker 1: with Fred Couples and maybe Phil Mickelson who has helped
Speaker 1: you along the way. What have you picked up from
Speaker 1: these golfers over the years. A sense of my own
Speaker 1: limitations is the first thing I got. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's like, what was it? Bob Joan said about Nicholas,
Speaker 1: he plays a game with which we are not familiar.
Speaker 1: I mean the first time I played with Davis, I
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, there's this. It doesn't matter what I
Speaker 1: do out here, because he's not playing the same game.
Speaker 1: I am it. They're just not even They're barely related. Uh.
Speaker 1: So you know what you learned is how to maybe
Speaker 1: how to comport yourself. Uh. You know one thing, Pros
Speaker 1: for the most part, I never played with Tommy Bolt,
Speaker 1: but I think for the most part, Pros learned that,
Speaker 1: you know, you've got to stay within yourself and and
Speaker 1: stay focused and and don't lose your mind over a
Speaker 1: bad shot. Um. I think that that's sort of consistency
Speaker 1: is something that's worth taken home. And I've tried to
Speaker 1: to to to bring that to my golf game. You know,
Speaker 1: try to enjoy every shot and if it's bad, then
Speaker 1: you get to hit another one. Most of the time,
Speaker 1: have you played with Fred? I have not played with Fred, uh,
Speaker 1: which is a bummer. He played here in Athens. One
Speaker 1: of my favorite stories is UH Athletes country Club but
Speaker 1: used to have these really just cheap plastic white benches
Speaker 1: on every t and Burnus is playing Fred and playing
Speaker 1: with Fred about the third hole, Fred looks at that
Speaker 1: cheap white plastic bench and takes us driver and just
Speaker 1: taps it two or three times. Didn't say a word,
Speaker 1: just tapped the bench two or three times and looked
Speaker 1: at Burnas and they replaced him the next year. Is
Speaker 1: very Fred is very subtle. He can be very subtle.
Speaker 1: It's true. How about Phil. Have you played with Phil?
Speaker 1: I haven't? I keep miss And it's like my good
Speaker 1: friend Mark Williams plays with Phil and uh and Burgers
Speaker 1: got to play with Fred. I've I've I've just not
Speaker 1: been in town a lot of times when these guys
Speaker 1: are around to play with. I've I've been lucky enough.
Speaker 1: I played with Justin Leonard. Uh like Kevin of course,
Speaker 1: and I played with the Davis a few times, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, and and I play at Davis's tournament almost
Speaker 1: every year down at Sea Island, so I get to
Speaker 1: play with a lot of different pros there, and that's always,
Speaker 1: you know, and there's something to learn from from all
Speaker 1: of them. Uh, some more than others. But but I
Speaker 1: really enjoy watching their approach. Um, we had a great
Speaker 1: time one year. Uh. The team had just flown back
Speaker 1: from the Ryder Cup in Ireland. The devastation at the
Speaker 1: k Club and coach was our pro and he was
Speaker 1: he was you know, they just spent all of their
Speaker 1: energy getting wiped out in Ireland and he was kind
Speaker 1: of sick and and he got out and played with
Speaker 1: us and was great. I mean he only helped us
Speaker 1: on one hole. He had an eagle in a car
Speaker 1: five and the rest of it was us, you know,
Speaker 1: him and egging it around and we won the tournament
Speaker 1: and that was super fun. Yeah. But the great thing
Speaker 1: was us didn't know who I was, so about the
Speaker 1: fifth hole, sixth holes, somebody cluing him in and and
Speaker 1: when I was at at earshot, he looked at the
Speaker 1: other guys in my grooms. Were you assholes just gonna
Speaker 1: go the whole round without telling me who that guy was?
Speaker 1: He was? He was not happy, but hey, we had
Speaker 1: a great time. Good guy. Have you played with Bones? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I played with Bones. Uh. He's he's just one of
Speaker 1: the best people in the world. But I have gotten
Speaker 1: to play with Bones. He caddied for me once way
Speaker 1: back before he was more famous than I am, so uh,
Speaker 1: that was really super cool. He's a great guy and
Speaker 1: I hope we get to play against him. Yeah, for
Speaker 1: those who are listening at home, don't know Bones has
Speaker 1: Athens Georgia connections as well. What was it like to
Speaker 1: have with Caddy? For you, that's gonna be a litidating
Speaker 1: because he's used to seeing some world class called Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's all like playing with the pros. You just
Speaker 1: you know, they know, they've all been there. You know.
Speaker 1: Nobody starts out great, well a few of them do,
Speaker 1: but most of them have hit. They hit, they hit
Speaker 1: the shanks, they've they've hit the mud ball, they do
Speaker 1: the whole thing. And and you know, the thing you
Speaker 1: learned is could be ready when it's your turn. Don't
Speaker 1: throw your club, you know, don't curse unless you know
Speaker 1: the prob really well. And and uh, you know what
Speaker 1: if you just if you just go with those rules,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really cool and really fun. I had
Speaker 1: kind of an odd, interesting experience this summer. Mike and
Speaker 1: I were or maybe I just sent Michael Texas, said Christie.
Speaker 1: And my wife Christie and I had gone to see
Speaker 1: Bobs s. Gags, who's about seventy eight now, and um,
Speaker 1: like from the first chord of the show, I mean
Speaker 1: it was spectacular. Uh, and he had done so much
Speaker 1: to get himself in such good shape for this uh
Speaker 1: tour was really like a magical experience. I mentioned it
Speaker 1: to Mike and Mike said that that that Mike and
Speaker 1: his wife Jasmine, so I have this right. Mike had
Speaker 1: just blown not that long ago also to see Bobs gags, uh,
Speaker 1: which was interesting. But it's interesting how any of us
Speaker 1: can have connections to these people who are Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know what really roughly the equivalent be, but like
Speaker 1: like if you if you're my age, and let's say
Speaker 1: like Burt Yancy. Now Jeff would definitely know the name
Speaker 1: BURTI Yancy. Mike you may not even know that name,
Speaker 1: and Alan you may be too young to do Burte
Speaker 1: y Uh. Just quick show him, Jeff, do you know
Speaker 1: the name Burt Yancy? Mike does Jeff? Do you? Alan?
Speaker 1: Do you I know the name? But I couldn't tell
Speaker 1: you much about it. Like he was a legend. He
Speaker 1: was you know, he went to West Point and he
Speaker 1: had a lot of mental struggles, but he had made
Speaker 1: a total se He was like Boz Gaggs. He was
Speaker 1: just like this figure who was revered, but you know,
Speaker 1: not at the Hogan level or even even even close
Speaker 1: to that. I don't know what I'm saying here. I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna give up because I'm not really going anywhere
Speaker 1: with this except for that we except for that, we
Speaker 1: have attachments to I just you know what triggered It
Speaker 1: was just attachment that I think that Mike had to
Speaker 1: boz gags, and I think all four of us have.
Speaker 1: You know, I can imagine, you know, like you know,
Speaker 1: Mike and I are basically the same age. Like to
Speaker 1: see Henry Aaron the Fister Hotel in Milwaukee, I mean,
Speaker 1: it takes your breath that's Henry are and that's really
Speaker 1: an exception, but like just takes your breath away. And
Speaker 1: I would say this is true for all four of
Speaker 1: us to to be at the stages of a life
Speaker 1: where we are. We have this appreciation for those who
Speaker 1: came before us and the artistry that they brought to
Speaker 1: a pursuit that, as we were saying earlier, is this
Speaker 1: mix of science and art. It's just neat. It's it's
Speaker 1: neat for Alan and May both to have. Do you
Speaker 1: hear Jeff and Mike compare notes on these You know,
Speaker 1: our thing is difficult too, but we get a lot
Speaker 1: of other takes at it. Uh, these guys don't. Um. Mike,
Speaker 1: of course, can move on to the next song. Jeff
Speaker 1: really can't. He's got to play the foul balls. By
Speaker 1: the way, Mike, you may know this famously, that's a
Speaker 1: Trevino line. You know, even God get if if you're
Speaker 1: playing in a lightning storm, hold up a one arned wide,
Speaker 1: because even God can't hit a one arm I wonder,
Speaker 1: but evidently evidently, Mike, your dad could, or maybe that's
Speaker 1: why you got the club because he couldn't. Who know, well,
Speaker 1: I figured if he couldn't hit it might have been broken,
Speaker 1: but uh no it was. But it's a it's a monster.
Speaker 1: I just don't know how anybody can do it, but
Speaker 1: people do well. As as we come to the end
Speaker 1: of this podcast, I will say I saw Bob Dylan
Speaker 1: at a little venue in Santa Cruz not too long ago,
Speaker 1: and he sounded great and the band was super tight,
Speaker 1: and I had this sensation of sitting there like this
Speaker 1: whole crowd was just completely enraptured, and these these guys
Speaker 1: are making all these sounds with just their fingertips and
Speaker 1: and a few vocal cords, and it's kind of magic
Speaker 1: and how little it takes to make such a big sound.
Speaker 1: Just like for Jeff, you know, he can he can
Speaker 1: stand out there in the middle of fairway and he
Speaker 1: can do something magical just just with his you know,
Speaker 1: just his own body and a very simple tool in
Speaker 1: the ball, right. And the thing that you guys share
Speaker 1: is just like a really unique gift and you know,
Speaker 1: the rest of us get to enjoy it in such
Speaker 1: a deep and meaningful way. So it is it does
Speaker 1: need to bring you, guys, the two of you particular together.
Speaker 1: Well you know what what what it is. And I
Speaker 1: guess one of the things that that golf and music
Speaker 1: do have in common is they can be transcendent. I mean,
Speaker 1: to watch to watch a player who's just so completely
Speaker 1: dialed in and uh and just you know he's gonna
Speaker 1: manail every shot that he takes her in that round.
Speaker 1: To watch that, it elevates you, It puts you in
Speaker 1: a better place. And the same thing with going to
Speaker 1: see a musician or a band who is on fire
Speaker 1: that night. It lifts you. It takes you out of
Speaker 1: your life and puts you somewhere else. And uh that
Speaker 1: the fact that both golf and music can do that
Speaker 1: might have something to do with why there's so many
Speaker 1: people that like both of them. That's really really well said. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do too, you know, to just to have the
Speaker 1: opportunity to get lost in something that's way beyond yourself.
Speaker 1: Um is the nepl I remember when well Sorry to
Speaker 1: go down rebbel Over, Like when Dwight Gooden was at
Speaker 1: the height of his powers. You know, my brother and
Speaker 1: I would go to Shay or whomever, Christine, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to say, just to watch good and work, you know,
Speaker 1: and he'd worked through the ninth inning. It was just
Speaker 1: it was just like, as you say, a magical experience. Alan.
Speaker 1: This would be true for Allen as well. But I've
Speaker 1: covered uh, I think fourteen of Tigers Majors and even
Speaker 1: the boring ones like when he won by fifteen at
Speaker 1: the US Open at Pebble Beach. Just to watch the
Speaker 1: man in full, it's such a totally transcendent experience, Christine
Speaker 1: and I felt that listen to bos guys this summer
Speaker 1: and or even like a little moment like like a
Speaker 1: guy not in a violent way at all, but a
Speaker 1: guy through a shoe in the direction of Michael Stipe
Speaker 1: one set a show and uh and Michael picked it
Speaker 1: up and he tossed it back and he just said,
Speaker 1: you're gonna need this, dude. And it was like, in
Speaker 1: another context it would be nothing, but in that context,
Speaker 1: like he had the presence and the confidence to just
Speaker 1: give the guy a shoe back because he's gonna go
Speaker 1: home after the show is over. It was just well,
Speaker 1: and that that's true. I mean, that is that is
Speaker 1: a certain calm confidence that really pay us off. But
Speaker 1: don't forget this. Writing is in there too. I mean,
Speaker 1: if not above, I mean writing takes The reason you
Speaker 1: guys are successfully what you do is because you take
Speaker 1: people out of there, you know, whatever space they're in
Speaker 1: before they start reading your books, and they take you
Speaker 1: take them to a different place. That's why they read
Speaker 1: your books, not just to learn things, but but to
Speaker 1: but to exist in a slightly different realm for as
Speaker 1: long as they're reading your book and maybe even for
Speaker 1: some time after. Uh. And And that's why you guys
Speaker 1: are known, because you're good at it and you can
Speaker 1: make people feel that way. Well that you're nice to
Speaker 1: say that, Mike, But there's one name I absolutely have
Speaker 1: to drop your there's a little bit of a friendship
Speaker 1: in a connection with our great friend John Garretty and
Speaker 1: Mike Mills. They share T Bones and the piano together.
Speaker 1: And if I have the story right, there's been occasions
Speaker 1: where Garity has maybe played piano, uh in front of
Speaker 1: Mike come out. Ah, I have that correct. But I'm
Speaker 1: glad those these are two of the most refined people
Speaker 1: you could ever meet in your life. Uh. Anyway, I've
Speaker 1: been called a lot of things, Michael, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: refined is one of them. But thank you. But yeah,
Speaker 1: but but guaranty guaranty and I've had a night or
Speaker 1: two that was that were really fun. What Mike Mills
Speaker 1: is a T Bones guy? I happened not to be.
Speaker 1: Alan Goes when his worst to Jeff probably I don't know, Jeff,
Speaker 1: are you probably not a T Bone guy? I'm guessing no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no. But Mike, what's the amusing thing about how
Speaker 1: you signed in a gust of flag from one of
Speaker 1: the years, the Tiger one? Well, okay, Uh, First of all,
Speaker 1: I gotta say that what is funny is that we
Speaker 1: had T Bone burnette to dinner at T Bones during
Speaker 1: the Masters a couple of years ago. Um. That was
Speaker 1: but so no, they they had a they had Tiger's
Speaker 1: victory flag and and uh, he had signed it in
Speaker 1: the middle, and all these people who signed around the edges,
Speaker 1: and they gave it to me to sign, and I
Speaker 1: don't I don't know what possessed me to do this,
Speaker 1: but I was like, oh, the hell with it, and
Speaker 1: I signed in the middle next to Tiger's name, and
Speaker 1: and I kind of realized later that might not have
Speaker 1: been the most politic thing to do, but it's it's
Speaker 1: hanging there. It's still there, t bones with my name
Speaker 1: right next to Tigers because you know, he couldn't have
Speaker 1: won it without me, I guess, is the feeling. I
Speaker 1: do want to say that it's very generous of you
Speaker 1: to um Mike to talk about our typing. But when
Speaker 1: people ask me I do for a living, I say,
Speaker 1: I give people something to read while they're on the throad.
Speaker 1: So that's you got. You gotta keep it all in perspective,
Speaker 1: that's a valuable service. I agreed. But you know, one
Speaker 1: quick shout out, even though he's got mentioned, but this
Speaker 1: group comes together because Mike and I have share a
Speaker 1: mutual friend and I know Mike would agree as I'm
Speaker 1: saying this. People say this occasionally they said, up, my mom,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say this of Burdas Burdas Downs, who is
Speaker 1: the connector between Mike and me. You cannot find a
Speaker 1: finer person in the world than Burdis sounds, and you
Speaker 1: will never find anybody who ever has anything negative to
Speaker 1: say about him, because his starting point is to treat
Speaker 1: people with fairness and courtesy and respect. Uh So um,
Speaker 1: he's just one of the great great people in my life.
Speaker 1: And I want to thank you for publicly here because
Speaker 1: among a million other things, he made this night possible
Speaker 1: in a roundabout way, I couldn't agree more. Michael, thanks
Speaker 1: for saying so that's great. Well, Mike Bills, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for being here. Uh. We have a little
Speaker 1: tradition on this podcast. After you leave, we're gonna we
Speaker 1: have a little Monday morning quarterbacking about your appearance and
Speaker 1: what we really think about you. So this is our
Speaker 1: last chance to thank you. And then you hit that
Speaker 1: little red FU icon and you're gonna disappear and we're
Speaker 1: going to stay on. But this is a great pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time and then your insight.
Speaker 1: It was really kind of magical to hear you. I
Speaker 1: haven't thought so much about the connection between golf and music.
Speaker 1: By the way you guys tease it out, that was
Speaker 1: really cool. Well you're you're so distracted by the super bottles,
Speaker 1: the wild and really super moneys, you know. Uh so
Speaker 1: it's it's been a it's been a total pleasure, guys.
Speaker 1: I I hope we all get to tee it up
Speaker 1: someday soon. Sounds good, but a cool dude. I mean,
Speaker 1: even even just a little studio there was so evocative,
Speaker 1: you know, like you could if the walls could talk, right,
Speaker 1: it just looks like that that places has seen a
Speaker 1: few things, and uh, you know, it's it. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like golf is like music, right. I mean, all
Speaker 1: these all these guys were talking about Boss Gags and
Speaker 1: Mike Mills and Bob Dylan there in their sixties or
Speaker 1: seventies or eighties are still doing it. It's not unlike
Speaker 1: no longer. Like when you have a passion and you
Speaker 1: have a gift, like it doesn't really ever go away. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, how cool is it that. I don't know
Speaker 1: how old exactly Mike is, but he's he's been at
Speaker 1: this for a very long time, but obviously he still
Speaker 1: he still loves it. You know, Mike, we right about
Speaker 1: sixty five. Yeah, yeah, See, he's got a great spirit.
Speaker 1: He's got a youthfulness about him, um, and he's got
Speaker 1: a joy about in everything that he does. I've you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, we all have moods, but his general mood
Speaker 1: is dryful, which is one of the reasons such a
Speaker 1: pleasure to be with. And he makes friends wherever he goes,
Speaker 1: all walks the life n chat. I enjoyed it. I
Speaker 1: can't believe you've never seen the parallels between music and golf,
Speaker 1: but I think they're the two closest. I think music
Speaker 1: is about its close, the only other thing that comes
Speaker 1: close to golf. You asked me timeless, Um, not neither
Speaker 1: of them a master able. You know, universal appeal all
Speaker 1: around the world. But I've got no soul, Jeff, so no,
Speaker 1: but Sam Sam snead. Jeff said that to me, I
Speaker 1: met sneed. Whenever I met sneed, uh sneed. You may
Speaker 1: know this job. He could play any instrument by ere.
Speaker 1: You give him a ban joe, you can give him
Speaker 1: a bongo drum. You know, uh, two interesting instruments that well,
Speaker 1: it's it is West Virginia Manja somehow right. This has
Speaker 1: been another episode of need to Fourth. Thank you for
Speaker 1: tuning in. We will keep, We'll keep, the guests coming surprises,
Speaker 1: A wait for Jeff Ogilvie and Michael Bamberger. I'm allen shipneck.
Speaker 1: This was needed fourth. Thanks for listening. That's all mm hm,
Speaker 1: oh my god. It's a dangerous crew here