1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Bronco Nirski, you know, like the ultimate early NFL player 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: when Year got paid with an IOU. And what's really 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: amazing is he took it his role as a pioneer 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: in broadcasting, sending the table for guys like Michael Strahan 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: that you see now, Tom Jackson before him, without earth 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: doing what he did. I think it'd been a long 7 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: time before somebody else got an opportunity. Thirteen thousand people 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: at a high school stadium with no bathrooms, no bathrooms 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: for people, no bathrooms in the woods. Welcome into the 10 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: lounge for Steelers Week. Do we bring it the biggest 11 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: guests for Steelers? Yeah, we gotta give it to him. Yeah. 12 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: We We were searched high and far and why to 13 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: find the best possible guests for Steelers Week, and we 14 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: got none other than the great one, Johnny Eyes and 15 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: Clifton Brown. And Clifton Brown. This is a double edition, 16 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: double edition, that's right, That's right. So you know, Alex Collins, 17 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: he might he might be severed off the list of 18 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: potential guests for the lounge because he's left as high 19 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: and dried out for two straight weeks. Yeah, Alex Collins 20 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: basically is going to be begging to come on the lounge. 21 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: Now he realizes we you know, after he's passed us by, 22 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 1: we went out and got better guests, Johnny, Isaac, Cliff Brown. Well, 23 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: is there any connection here between the low you know, 24 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: his low yards per carry and refused to come on 25 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: the lounge. I think that he needs to understand the 26 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: benefit of the podcast. Bomb completely agree. I will say though, 27 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: if I will let you all know, he has a 28 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: better nose for the end zone than me. I wish 29 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: that was the case, because fantasy. All right, Um, So 30 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: before we get into the interview of one of the 31 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: reasons we're ranging John on is because with John and Cliff, 32 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: because both of them have new books which are really 33 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: really cool tied into the NFL, but I think any 34 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: football FAMI would be interested to read. But before we 35 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: start talking about the book, we have an audio question 36 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: from Brent Learner, So let's go ahead and play that 37 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: audio question. Hey, Garrett and Ryan, great win over the 38 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: Broncos today. There was a lot to be encouraged about 39 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: during the game. About four months ago I moved to Sydney, 40 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: Australia when a really cool opportunity came up with for 41 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: the company I worked for and Garrett. You may not 42 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: remember this, but I actually interviewed you for a project 43 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 1: I did a few years back when I was still 44 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: in college. So I really look forward to the lounge 45 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: every week because I lived down Under. The only annoying 46 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: part about living so far away is that to watch 47 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: the regular one pm Eastern Sunday afternoon Ravens game, that 48 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: means I'm waking up at two a m. Monday mornings 49 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: for a three am Sydney Time kickoff. It's not ideal, 50 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: but that's the sacrifice that great fans make. On that note, 51 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: my question is this, what is the craziest or most 52 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: inconvenient thing you've done to watch Ravens game that you 53 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: weren't attending? Again? I love the show, guys, and looking 54 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,839 Speaker 1: forward to many more episodes to come. Thanks. So thanks 55 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: to Brett good the question from him? How about that 56 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: he interviewed me for a project a few years ago? 57 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: Of course I remember. I'm sure I gave him great stuff, 58 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: great stuff. Uh, but what about you, guys? Have you 59 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: ever woken up at a crazy time to watch Ravens game? 60 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: I was in Australia for a Ravens game my Baltimore 61 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: Sundays two thousand Olympics in Sydney, and uh yeah it 62 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: was a whipping So that was a Super Bowl year 63 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: and I want not being a Super Bowl year and 64 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: they lost to the Bears. It was it was raining. 65 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: Did you have to cover it? No, no, you just 66 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: watched it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was it the Bears, 67 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: the Bears of the forty you know what. It was 68 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: a long time ago, but I remember this. It was 69 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: raining and there were only field goals. Ravens lost. It's 70 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: like twelve to three. You can look it up. This 71 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: is back when newspapers had money. So John was just 72 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 1: gallo vancing all over the world Australia, South Africa. Yeah, 73 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: in the Paleozoic era. Uh, it's kind of a similar story. 74 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: Also in a Super Bowl year twelve, I was out 75 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: in San Francisco for my brother in law's wedding. Uh, 76 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: and so I couldn't you know, I wasn't going to 77 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: the game obviously, and my brother in law, you know, 78 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: he's like a hippie dippie, you know, San Francisco guy. 79 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: You know, these aren't people that subscribe to NFL Sunday. 80 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: So I wasn't going back to his place to watch 81 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: the game. So I had to find a bar. That's 82 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: always the solution, you know, if you do have it 83 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: at your house, you go to a bar. Yeah, and 84 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: so I went there. I found like some bar in 85 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: San Francisco, and it was the Ravens were playing in 86 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: Houston and the Texans wolfed our but forty three to thirteen. 87 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: And of course I found the only bar with about 88 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: six Texans fans, massive Texans fans that also have to 89 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: be at the same bar. So I'm sitting there, laptop 90 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: on the bar, all these they're going wild. I'm like, 91 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: this is miserable. Way. I give Brett props if any 92 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,119 Speaker 1: Ravens fan wakes up at three o'clock in the morning 93 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: on Mondays to watch Ravens games as commitments. So well 94 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: done to Brett. And for anyone who wants to send 95 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,799 Speaker 1: an audio questions, you can do so at the lounge 96 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: at Ravens dot NFL dot net. Thanks Brett um and 97 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: so anybody else in those in So let's go ahead 98 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: and start talking with you. John. The reason we brought 99 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: John on is because you've got a new book. It's 100 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: not officially out yet, right, you can preorder it. Well, 101 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: I've got it right in front of me. Well, this 102 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: is this is the advanced copy, fans copy. No, the book. 103 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: The official publication date is October nine. Okay, so she'll 104 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: probably give the title of the book. It's called The 105 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: League League, How five rivals created the NFL and launched 106 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: a sports empire. So we could do the summary, John, 107 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: but I think you're better equipped to kind of summarize 108 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: what this book is about. Uh, well it is. It's 109 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: a book of football history. Really, it's it's like an 110 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: NFL creation story what I did. And actually this publisher, 111 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: Basic Books in New York, they came to me and said, 112 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: you would you be interested in doing this story about 113 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 1: these early owners. They're all famous guys. They're all in 114 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame, George Hallis, Burt Bell. Actually they 115 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: left it to me. You figure out the guys, but 116 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: tell us, tell us about the own How did this 117 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: league survive the early years when it started and it 118 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: was maybe the fifth sixth most popular sport, and I 119 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: mean pro football was not popular, College football, boxing, baseball 120 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: was number one horse racing on and on pro football 121 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: was nothing, And so how did they keep it going 122 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: when nobody cared they were losing money. Franchises came and 123 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: went and for twenty years, thirty years. You can't believe 124 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: how long this went on. Uh what years are we 125 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: talking about here? The book is mostly set the nine 126 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: twenties when it all starts through the twenties, through the thirties, 127 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: through the forties, so through the depression, through World War Two, 128 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: and then there was an arrival League in the late 129 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: forties after the war that was a huge thing. And 130 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: so really three decades of just really struggle and you know, 131 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: how did they get it done? So when you start 132 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: to write the book, as you're at the outside of this, 133 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: are you basically trying to figure out what was it 134 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: that this group of owners did to allow the game 135 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: to continue and then get to the point of where 136 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: we are today, kind of figure out the secret sauce 137 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: secret sauces exactly right, And of course a lot because 138 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: and so much it involves money. But the point is 139 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: there was no money. I mean, they weren't. They weren't 140 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: trying to get rich. They were just I mean, that 141 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: was laughable. There was no you weren't. You didn't get 142 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: into foot pro football to say I'm gonna be a 143 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: rich guy. I mean, I mean they didn't have. There 144 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: was no money in it. There was very little. You 145 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: just didn't want to go bankrupt, you know, it was 146 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: really what it was. So they were just trying to 147 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: get by, and they did believe. They believed in pro football, 148 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: and that's what they had. And that's honestly the secret 149 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: sauce back then. That was like the best investment you 150 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: could have ever made. Man buying an NFL franchise back 151 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: then for one hundred bucks. Welle me tell you, Let 152 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: me tell you. I interviewed among in my research. I 153 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: interviewed the owner of the Chicago Bears. Her name is 154 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: Virginia McCaskey. Okay, she is George Hollis's daughter. Okay, So 155 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: George Hollis started the Chicago Bears. Was a couple of 156 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, you know, or something like like that. And 157 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: so now this is his direct descendant still owns the Bears. 158 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: What are they worth? I haven't seen these forms evaluations. 159 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: Three billion dollars or something like that, So yeah, I 160 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: would say, not a bad Since did you play out 161 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: there's a early palatial estate to go interview her. I 162 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: interviewed her in house hall, Uh, you know where the Bears. 163 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: They're they're under Armors Performance Center. It's really nice out 164 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: north of Chicago. Yeah, Kevin Byrne of the Ravens helped 165 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: set me up and get me through the door in 166 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 1: a couple of places. And yeah, I mean and that 167 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: was great. I mean she's nine years so still sharp. 168 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: And you know this, you know, a little sweet little woman. 169 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: You know, she goes to Chicago Bear. I mean it. 170 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: So anyway, I've told some people around the league, I said, 171 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: I interviewed Virginia mccasky and they were like, wow, that's 172 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: like talking to like George Washington's daughter. And it's kind 173 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: of true. I mean, she was there for she's seen 174 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: it all. Tell us a little bit about some of 175 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: these main characters, you know, what were some of them 176 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: were interesting takeaways that you got or learned about them. Well, 177 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: it's the original Rooney Art Rooney, the original Mara. Tim 178 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: Mara uh started the New York Giants in five dollars 179 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: and he was a bookie. That was his that was 180 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: his line of work. It was a legal bookie. You 181 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: could be a legal horse racing bookie back then. So 182 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: he was that uh Bert Bell who's kind of forgotten. 183 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: He started the Philadelphia Eagles in nineteen thirty three. He 184 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: ultimately was commissioner before Pete Roselle. And so he was 185 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: a rich guy. He was the only one who was 186 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: born very rich and blew all his money I think 187 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: at the race track and so and then and then 188 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: to start the Eagles, he like borrowed money from his wife, 189 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: who was a showgirl. So the story one after the other. 190 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 1: These stories these guys were unbelievable. Uh you know, they 191 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 1: were they were living. They were gamblers. Art Rooney who 192 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: started the Steelers, he never really worked to day in 193 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: his life. He made his money sort of just with 194 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: his wits, and a lot of it was at the racetrack. 195 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 1: He he was a famous gambler, actually was a front 196 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: page famous gambler, and so he would make money legally. 197 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: But he was really good at playing the horses. So 198 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: these guys did I for talent man, they still do. 199 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: From wide receiver. Yeah, So I talked to his son, 200 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 1: our Jr. I mean, the Steeler people were great. They 201 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: were they they were very into it. And what's really 202 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: amazing is it all these years that I'm writing about 203 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: the Steelers were terrible. They were horrible. They were one 204 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: of the worst teams in the legally Ravens wish the 205 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: Steelers were that bad now, especially so if you were 206 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: to go to one of these games in you know, 207 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: ninety what's the setting, I mean, what is it like? 208 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: How many people are there? What does it look like? Okay, 209 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: if you're in New York, it's pretty good. It's a 210 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: somewhat familiar. You're at the Polo Grounds, which was a 211 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: famous baseball stadium, and the Giants were the first successful team. 212 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: They were drawn crowds in the thirties and the forties, 213 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: there could there could be fifty thou people. They played 214 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: the Redskins. After the Redskins moved to Washington. They started 215 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: in Boston. That was the first great rivalry. Well the 216 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: Bears and the Packers too, but in New York that 217 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: were really drawn crowds, so that was great. On the 218 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: other hand, if you went to Green Bay and the 219 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: Packers were playing, then they played in a high school stadium. 220 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: So thirteen thousand people at a high school stadium with 221 00:11:54,320 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: no bathrooms, no bathrooms for people, bathrooms in the woods. 222 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: What so yeah, yeah, I got a lot of following questions. 223 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: So so anyway, and it depends but there would be 224 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: you could have fifty thousand in New York, you could 225 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: have or you could like the Cardinals were in Chicago, 226 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: then they may play before five thousand, or the Eagles. 227 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: The Eagles and the Steelers were the really the bottom 228 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: of the league. They would play before three thousand people, 229 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: sometimes nobody coming to the game, so they couldn't give 230 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: them away. So what turned it? I mean, what, at 231 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: what point does all of a sudden has become the 232 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: biggest you know, obviously there's a long process, but like, 233 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 1: was there a point where all sudden football became pro 234 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: football became the sport in the United States. Well, what 235 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: happened was, and this is really the tech the text 236 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,719 Speaker 1: of the book, Slowly but surely, they separated themselves from 237 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: college football. They just for years, the NFL just took 238 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: whatever rules college football had. They said, well, we'll do that, 239 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, because college football it was more popular. Slowly 240 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: but surely they started to change. They opened up the 241 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: game with there were a lot of stipulations about the 242 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: forward pass. Uh, they opened it up and said we're 243 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: gonna have much more passing. Another thing that they did, 244 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: I mean, they constantly tweaked the rules a huge thing 245 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: in history really little known is unlimited substitutions, which basically 246 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: created two platoons. It basically created an offense and a 247 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: defense and led to specialization. You know, the quarterbacks were 248 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: defensive backs for many, many years because you couldn't come 249 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: off the field. Wow, and so yeah, so that just 250 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: led to you know, you could just be a quarterback. 251 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: And slowly, but surely so the talent level, you know, 252 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: rose a lot, and the game became more exciting. The 253 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: game became better than college football, more passing, more excitement, 254 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: more specialization. That was that was the one component. The 255 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: other component was television. You know, when television came along 256 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: and sub only as the game was getting more exciting, 257 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: suddenly people all over the country could see it and 258 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: they couldn't before. And those two things really just when 259 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: pro football was really becoming, you know, much more interesting 260 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: to watch than college football, it got broadcast across the country. 261 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: So that really helps. So they constantly worked. Really the 262 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: game was the most important part of it. And then 263 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: the sort of public publicity involved with the game and 264 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: the tinkering of the game still continues. Well. One thing, 265 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: one thing, absolutely, I mean, what I learned in this 266 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: book is the arguments that are about rules. Now, there's 267 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: a long history. I mean it goes back to that, 268 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: and they're constantly dealing with stuff like that. I came 269 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: across the game or when year in the championship game. 270 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: All right, Sammy Ba throws a pass. He's playing for 271 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: the Redskins, he's in his end zone. He throws a pass. 272 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: It hits the goal post. Are on the goal line. Okay, 273 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: it hits the goal post of the end zone. That's 274 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: a safety two point rule, okay too. And they lost 275 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: by one or two, the Redskins did so George Preston Marshall, 276 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: who owns the Redskins, just like any owner today, immediately 277 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: to the rules. The next year that one's outlawed, and 278 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: it was, it was, it was outlawed. Stupid rules like that. 279 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: So this is why you know, uh, Aaron Rodgers, you know, 280 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: has his ribs broken or whatever by a defensive lineman 281 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: falling on him. And now the next year you can't 282 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: follow the quarterback anywhere. It's the same exact stuff. So 283 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: do you think so? Obviously at the time, I'm guessing 284 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: people you know, are all up in arms, like get 285 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: this forward pass out of here. This is garbage. We 286 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: hate this new rule, and now it's obviously such a 287 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: huge part of the game. So when you hear the 288 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: things that are happening like this year, with criticizing all 289 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: these rules protecting quarterbacks, do you think in ten fifteen 290 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: years people were saying, I can't believe you used to 291 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: be able to fall on the quarterback insane. Well, what 292 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: it does is put it in for me, put it 293 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: in context. It's like this, this stuff happens every year, 294 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: it happens all the time, It's always been happening. And 295 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: then it's really important because it's the game. It's really 296 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: important in the line, you know. And I think the 297 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: NFL very frankly has some issues with, you know, constantly 298 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: with there's a lot of penalties in these games now 299 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: and you know the product, you you really have to 300 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: focus on it constantly. But that's not new. It's not new. 301 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: I've been doing it forever and so but it just 302 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: shows you how important it is. This is a little 303 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: side dude on on this conversation. Started to take away 304 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: from the book here a little bit. But I think 305 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: that it's funny that, like so last year we were 306 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: all complaining a bunch of NFL fans are complaining because 307 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: the best, some of the best quarterbacks were getting injured, right, 308 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: and we are all attributing, like the lower television ratings 309 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: in parts of that the stars were gone, a lot 310 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: of them, right. So then the NFL goes and changes 311 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: the rules to try to protect the quarterbacks, to keep 312 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: them on the field so that we all want to 313 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: watch more. And now we're like, what the hell like, 314 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: you can't protect these guys, They're just another player. I 315 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: get what you're saying, and I agree with you, right, 316 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: But counterpoint to that is, not all of these guys 317 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: were injured because of rules that are now being put 318 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: into place. Aaron Rodgers, Yes, the guy fell on him 319 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: and that was what was This wasn't separate, I said, 320 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: I think collar bone things something up in that area. Um, 321 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: but you know, like the Shawn Watson torn a c L, 322 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: that's independent when it's a c L. Look at this 323 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: year Jimmy Garoppolo running a c L. So that isn't 324 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: I think I think the Yeah, I agree with you. 325 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: I think the NFL is really at a crossroads too 326 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: when it comes to player's safety and rules, because on 327 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: one hand, you have the media and let's say a 328 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: more liberal audience who says the game needs to be safer, 329 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: like it's so dangerous. It's it's gladiators out there, right, 330 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: we need to protect players. But on the other hand, 331 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: you have a lot of people who I think are 332 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: the core NFL fans who say the game is too soft, 333 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: like we they they believe it's gotten too not dangerous 334 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: like they watch it because the football and the players 335 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: seem to be leaving that way too. They think that 336 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: it's become you soft. So it's like you the league 337 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: is battling this image perception from the media and a 338 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: lot of fans. Well, at the same time, you gotta 339 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: get right. It's really interesting time. You gotta get it 340 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: right too. I mean, I mean that's what at one 341 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: way or the other, you gotta figure out what's the 342 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: right way to do it, you know, and just it's 343 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: there's a long, long history of that. Well, and the 344 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: NFL is also been in lawsuits, so that was another 345 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: reason for players. The player's saving thing is a larger issue. Yeah, 346 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: that's a big one, but it's but but this is 347 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: the tankering of the rules. I mean, it sounds to 348 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: me like what you're saying is basically when you go back, 349 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: these guys were just focused on improving the game itself. Yes, 350 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: not that they didn't want to make money, don't get 351 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: me wrong, But as I said, there was no money 352 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: to be made. I mean there was that. They were 353 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: just happy to have people coming to the games. So 354 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: you know, it was not that it was all you know. 355 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: So yes, they did think how are we gonna how 356 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: are we going to do this? And very quickly. And 357 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: actually one of the key guys was George Preston Marshall, 358 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: who started the I mean, you know, he's a complicated 359 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: figure in history, but is a huge less to be honest, 360 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: a huge racist and probably the biggest racist in the 361 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: history of the NFL. The Skids are the last team 362 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: to integrate to integrated. Books written about him. I mean 363 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: he was rough, but he was very progressive when it 364 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: came to opening up the game. And he came from 365 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: the theater, had a background in the theater, and he said, 366 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: you have to have a show here. No, but this 367 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: is boring, is what he said. He said, you know, 368 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: we gotta open this thing up. So he had a 369 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: lot to do with with tweaking the rules and saying 370 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: let's make it better. And so he also started marching bands. 371 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: So I mean there's you know, before they were a 372 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: college thing or he professionally. And yes, I mean the 373 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: NFL they had nothing at half time right right right, 374 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: so you know in the college no, the college bands 375 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: were already said we have to do this. Would would 376 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: you say, after after researching this, are you surprised that 377 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: the NFL survived? Um? Well, yeah, I mean there were 378 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: a couple of periods in time where it was close. 379 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: It was really close us the first years of the depression, 380 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: after the stock market crash in n and you know, 381 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: I mean that was I mean, we went through an 382 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: economic thing here, you know, ten years ago. It was bad. 383 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: I mean the ticket buyers, they didn't have any money. 384 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 1: There was a lot of people not coming to the games, 385 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: and the teams had nothing. And George Hallis one year 386 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: one thing I couldn't believe this what I found out. 387 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: One year paid his players with io us. No, it's 388 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 1: like dum dumber. Yeah, he played bronchos, you know, like 389 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: the ultimate early NFL player, bronchoger Sky. You know, one 390 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: year got paid with an IOU. What's really amazing is 391 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: he took it he said okay, all right, and so yes, 392 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: So they were on the edge at that point. And 393 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: then the other period of time where I'm not sure 394 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: they were going to make it through was during World 395 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: War Two. If you go back and look, uh, there 396 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: were franchises merged that year. The Cardinals and the Steelers 397 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: merged because they didn't have enough players, and you know, 398 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: they were barely making it at that point. The Eagles 399 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,479 Speaker 1: and the Steelers merged. When you they were just flinging 400 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: it against the wall. It's like, let's hope some sticks, 401 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: and you know, we can still have a league here. 402 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: So it was closed. So there are a couple of 403 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: times where I think it was pretty vulnerable. That's interesting. Well, 404 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: the book is The League, How five rivals created the 405 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: NFL and launched a sports empire. It's October nine, October nine. 406 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: You can preorder it now on Amazon, and we've got 407 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: the advanced copy right here. So I'm gonna go ahead 408 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: and take a look at that before you get your 409 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: greasy palms all over it. Yeah, I'm looking forward. I'm 410 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: gonna have to get that little autographed inscribe from I 411 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: always look forward to that. Yeah, I still have you 412 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: have to read his Packer's book. I gotta, I gotta 413 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: get around to come on, you gotta. We got to 414 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: check that one off the list before you get this 415 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: is this is book number ten. Wow. Yeah, I'll tell 416 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: you what, man, where's it rank? H I'm just gonna 417 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: say first, not say first, but uh, it's high. A 418 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: lot went into this one, A lot went into this one. 419 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: So I'm pretty happy with it. That's great job. Well, 420 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: I can't wait to read it, and definitely we encourage 421 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: everybody out there to order a copy. So thank you 422 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: very much, thanks for having me. I always appreciate it. 423 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: Thanks Sean. All right, well, thanks to John. And now 424 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: we bring in another great guest. You know John, he's 425 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: a leadoff hitter. He set the table for you, Cliff, 426 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: Now you gotta drive him home. We've got Clifton Brown here, 427 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: who if you guys listened to the podcast a few 428 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: weeks ago, he made his debut on the Lounge as 429 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: the judge that week. Now he's just uh, he's just 430 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: normal Cliff. This week, I'm looking pretty good on my 431 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: predictions there for Joe Flacker top in four thousand yards. 432 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 1: I believe you said under but both Cliff and I 433 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: this is the three ants into the season, makes ready 434 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: to go ahead and cash in those chips. Hey, I'll 435 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: double down, right now, I'll double down. We're not here 436 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: to make predictions. We're here to talk about your book, 437 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: all right, Cliff. So, Cliff is the author of Bearing 438 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: the Cross. Uh. It's the story of earth Cross, who 439 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: was the first African American sports broadcaster. Uh, Cliff, what 440 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: was tell us the inspiration behind this book? Well, I 441 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: wanted to do a book and was looking for subject 442 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: so the public Dride worked with asked me to send 443 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: him five suggestions for a book. This is the one 444 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: he liked the most. I didn't know earth Cross at 445 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: all before I did this book, but I watched them 446 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: on the NFL Today Show, which was an iconic, groundbreaking 447 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: TV pregame show, which really all these pregame shows we 448 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: watch now are really based on. And at that time 449 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: in the eighties, it was really a deviation to have 450 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: He was the first African American sports catch on the 451 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: national TV stage. They also had a woman, Phyllis George 452 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: then a year after the first woman. Yes, she was 453 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: on a on a national as a national analyst. And 454 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: then they brought in Jimmy the Greek after the show 455 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: started for the gambling element. So it was really a 456 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: risky decision by CBS to go this way, but it 457 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: really worked. It became, you know, the number one TV 458 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: pregame show, and Erv's role I think got kind of 459 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: lost in that. You know, Brent Musburger hasn't had a 460 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: great career, um IRV was kind of the guy who 461 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: was in kind of overshadow sometimes by both the Greek 462 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: and Brent. But his role as a pioneer in broadcasting, 463 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: sending the table for guys like Michael Strahan that you 464 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: see now Tom Jackson before him. Without Earv doing what 465 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: he did, I think it would have been a long 466 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: time before somebody else got an opportunity. So you mentioned 467 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: that you didn't know her personally before writing the book. 468 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 1: What's your process then, where the publisher says, all right, 469 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: we like this idea, and you gotta say, hey, her 470 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: foots I'd like to write this book. Yeah. I got 471 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: in touch with him and we talked, and then we 472 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: met in a hotel room in Philly. He was getting 473 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: put into their Ring of honor, the Eagles, and so 474 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: he spent that whole week in Philly. I went up 475 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: to Philly and met with him and we just talked. 476 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: And I grew up in Philly, uh so I remembered 477 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: him not as a player, but obviously watching him on TV, 478 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: and we just hit it off. That I think the 479 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: key is he wanted to do a book, but he 480 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: had not done one, and he's seventy nine years old now, 481 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: so he's like, I need to do this. So he 482 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: had a desire to do a book. When we met, 483 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: he felt comfortable having me tell his tell his story. 484 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: It's in his voice. But you know, I did the writing. 485 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: So we just collected and one thing led another. And 486 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: since I already had the agreement from the publisher if 487 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: he wanted to do the book, it would happen. Once 488 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: I convinced Earth to do it with me, then we 489 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: were off to the race. How many hours of talking 490 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: would you say good into a book? Like? How many 491 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: hours spent with Earth God countless Ryan. I mean a 492 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: lot of it was done over the phone. I went 493 00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: out to Minnesota where he lives a few times. I 494 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: is of him, and we didn't face the phase. But 495 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: it's it's an arduous process. Now I only had eight 496 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: months to do this book, which made it more pressure fact, 497 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: I would have loved to have more time. Unfortunately, IRV 498 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: and I, you know, got along well. And you know, 499 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: I don't know if you gotta familiar with the book 500 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: Tuesdie with Marie that a guy used to work with 501 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: Mitch Album wrote, where he would meet with the subject 502 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: every Tuesday. Well, we had Tuesdays with IRV. I would 503 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: talk to him on the phone for as long as 504 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: it took, and I would always give him a subject 505 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: that I was gonna talk about before we started. Okay, 506 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about you childhood, we're gonna talk about 507 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: your rookie season, we're gonna talk about your first NFL 508 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: today's season. And so we tried to keep it condensed 509 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: into whatever that subject was. But at some point you 510 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: have all this information and you have to start writing. 511 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: It's a much different process in writing an article. I mean, 512 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: if you're doing an in depth feature of profile somebody, 513 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: the information doesn't get so overwhelming that okay, where do 514 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 1: you begin. At some point I almost had to stop 515 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: talking to Earth and start writing all these interviews and 516 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: no pages in the books. It was a learning process 517 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: for me to um one that yeah, I'll never forget. 518 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: So what's something about earth Cross that you learned over 519 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: the process of talking with him, and that I think 520 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: people would be surprised to know so many things Garrett, 521 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: which was I guess was one reason why they liked 522 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: the idea of a book. I didn't know he was 523 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: one of fifteen kids. He's the eighth of fifteen kids. 524 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: I didn't know that his mother died when he was 525 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: nine years old. I didn't know that how poor his 526 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: family was. I didn't know that his father was an 527 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: alcoholic actually used to abuse his mother. Um. There were 528 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: so many things that earth overcame just to get the college. 529 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: He was the first person in his family to even 530 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: go to college, and he wanted to play football. He 531 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: used football as a vehicle to go to college. Uh 532 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: other until he got the Northwestern I didn't know he 533 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: had played with Arab parts for Arab parts, even the 534 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: great Notre Dame coach who wasn't Northwestern first, that was 535 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: his college coach, and he had an earth had a 536 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: heck of her career Northwestern, and but he was still 537 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: a seventh round draft pick of the Eagles. Didn't think 538 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: he was gonna make the team. He told him when 539 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: he showed up for training camp. If you guys are 540 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: gonna cut me, do it quickly so I can go 541 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: back to Northwestern and go to grad school. He just 542 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 1: wanted to be a coach or a teacher, but he 543 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: made the team and ended up playing nine years in 544 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: the NFL and then went in the broadcasting actually when 545 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: he was still a player. So all those type things, 546 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: I had no idea. What was it about him that 547 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: you think made him the guy that got that first shot? 548 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: You know that from a broadcasting standpoint. Yeah, another good 549 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: question because he wasn't a star player. I mean, he 550 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: made the Pro Bowl a couple of times, but you 551 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: know he figured like someone from me there, like Jim 552 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: Brown or Dale Sayers would have been more built, but 553 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: Earv had TV experience when he started playing for the Eagles. 554 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: The Eagles. He joined the Eagles a year after they 555 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: won the nineties sixty NFL championship. So the Eagles were 556 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: hugely popular in Philly, much like they are now, and 557 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: all the star players were overbooked for like speaking engagements. 558 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: So Irv went to them and said, Hey, if there's 559 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: any speaking engagements you guys want me to do, I'll 560 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: do them for free. So he started doing speaking engamors 561 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: around town. One day, this guy who works with TV 562 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: station saw IRV said, you've got a great voice. You know, 563 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: did you ever think about going into TV or radio? 564 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: Next thing you know, he's doing the radio updates for 565 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: the station, you know, the sports broadcast. And he got 566 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: on TV, so he had TV experience. And when CBS 567 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: decided to do this NFL Today show, they definitely want 568 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: a woman. They definitely wanted an African American. And one 569 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: of the producers in New York has seen IRV in 570 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: Philly and said, hey, I think IRV is a guy 571 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: you should talk to. He went, you know, killed the 572 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: audition and got the job. And another funny part about 573 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: that is after he gets the job for the NFL Today, 574 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: they take him out the shop for clothes. And this 575 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: was during the time when super Fly and Shaft those 576 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: were like problem you know movies. So they take Erv 577 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: clothes shop and then they're buying him these gold chains 578 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: and you know, big collars, and Erv never dressed like that. 579 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: So he tells this woman he's from CBS, Hey, I'm 580 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: not wearing this stuff on tea. This isn't me, like, 581 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: you know, you need to get Sammy Davis Junior or 582 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: somebody else. So he believes that if they hadn't already 583 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: started doing promos with him on the show and sending 584 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: pictures out, that they would have gotten somebody else and 585 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: of that image. But when he went and told him 586 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: that he wasn't gonna do it, they said, all right, 587 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: where whatever you want. And then of course when he 588 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: got on, he was so good. Then it never became 589 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: an issue. That's awesome. Why why was it? You know, 590 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: it really struck me that he said, CBS knew that 591 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: they wanted an African Americans first broadcaster. Why did they 592 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: feel like how had the times changed them to to 593 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: prompt them to know that that's what they wanted? You know, 594 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: that's a good question. I just think they felt they 595 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: wanted to be different, and they wanted and then maybe 596 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: the country was ready for They just wanted to try 597 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: something new. There was gonna be a departure from the 598 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: show they've ever been done, so I guess they always 599 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: had the fallback position and if it didn't work, they 600 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: still had the contract to do NFL games with CBS. 601 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: They would have just gone to a different format. But 602 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: it was very important that both Earth and Phyllis were 603 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: good in their roles because they knew that they were 604 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: in this cast two for a reason, not just because 605 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: of what they brought to the table. So it worked 606 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: even though they had a lot of problems behind the 607 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: scenes with you know, Phyllis, George and Jimmy Degree couldn't 608 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: stay in each other. You know, Brandon uh Gree got 609 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: in a fist fight in the restaurant after one the shows. 610 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: V was a one guy that everybody seemed to like. 611 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: He was like the glue. So when when this person 612 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: wasn't talking to that person, or this person did won't 613 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: work with this person, he could kind of broker them. 614 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: They were like at this functional family that worked. That's right. Well, 615 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you, were you also interested in 616 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: reporting about this obviously because you're African American and I'm 617 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: curious as to whether early in your career if it 618 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: was difficult to break into the sports media industry as well. 619 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: Good questions. Yes, I definitely felt, you know that our 620 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: Earth story was important. They need to be told as 621 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: an African American man, that this is a guy who 622 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: was important in the sports television business, and the fact 623 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: that his story wasn't well known I thought it was 624 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: important and he felt the same way. So we're both 625 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: glad that, you know, while he's still alive, even makes 626 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: it even more important that he got to see this 627 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: book come out. As for me, when I broke into 628 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: the business, it was before ESPN, it was TV and 629 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: journalism were very separate, So you almost had to pick 630 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: or do I want to be a TV guy or 631 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: do I want to be a writer. And I kind 632 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: of chose writing because it was less subjective and that, 633 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: you know, being black, I'm like, well, if you can write, 634 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: people have a harder time ignoring you or thinking of 635 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: reasons why they don't want to hire you. And definitely 636 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: when I was in the starting the business, once you 637 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: became somebody who they thought was a pretty good writer 638 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: and you want to grow your career, you were always 639 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: pushed to cover the n b A Like we used 640 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: to joke to leave black right, we would call the 641 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: NBA the ghetto be It's like once you start moving 642 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: up to favor like, oh, they're gonna put you on 643 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: the ghetto b and you'd end up covering the NBA team. 644 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: Baseball was much harder to get a beach out football 645 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: any other sports you want to name. So one of 646 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: the reason if I ended up over in golf for 647 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: a time when I was in New York with New 648 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: York Times, because I asked. I went to my balls 649 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: and said, look, I want to do something different than 650 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: cover the NBA because I don't want to be pigeonholed 651 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: into being a guy who can only cover the n 652 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: B A. And as a turn out, our golf writer 653 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: left and then my boss approached me and said, do 654 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: you want to write golfer? I had never thought about 655 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: covering golf until he asked me. Was I interested in 656 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,439 Speaker 1: doing it right? And that's how I ended up doing 657 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: And I said yes, and then you know, he decided 658 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: to give me a shot, and that's how that happened 659 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: because I didn't want to want that stereotype to be, 660 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: you know, online resume interesting when you started in your career. 661 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: One of my uh kind of mentors when I was 662 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: growing up as a guy, Uh, Justice Hill, who I 663 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: think you know he was a black sports writer, but 664 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: he was, he had said earlier his career basically when 665 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: you get in the press box, he was there was 666 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 1: kind of a bond with other African American sports writers 667 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: because there weren't many in the press box. So that's 668 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: something that you felt when you first started out. Absolutely. 669 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: My first job was in Florida boker raton Bokeraton News, 670 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: and we covered Dolphins home games and we only had 671 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: a two and a half person staff. We had the 672 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: sports raitor me and then a woman who wrote part 673 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: time for us. So when my boss didn't go to 674 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: Dolphin game, I would get to go. And yet the 675 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: first time I walked it to the press box at 676 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: the Orange Bowl for a Dolphins game, I mean, yeah, 677 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: I was stunned. I'm like, I don't stay here, anybody 678 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,479 Speaker 1: black here, you know, I don't see anybody. So as 679 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: more and more black start getting in the business, yes, 680 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,240 Speaker 1: when we saw each other, you know, we would like, hey, 681 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: you know, how are you. We want to introduce we 682 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: change information. You know, I still go to National Association 683 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: in Black journal is convincing most years. Any year I 684 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: can partly be caused I see people who I kind 685 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: of grew up within the business we can mentor younger 686 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: people coming up in the business. Because still even now, 687 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, when Hockey Beat came comes open, 688 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: I think it's just natural for a lot of you know, 689 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,240 Speaker 1: sports editors and executive editors. They don't think of giving 690 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: a black person a shot unless somebody brings that person 691 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: to their attention. So yeah, even though things have gotten 692 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: a lot better, it's still you know, like a lot 693 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,359 Speaker 1: of things where things go on hiring practices that you know, 694 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: you kind of like wonder did did everybody get a 695 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: fair shot? Just to you know, to have this opportunity. 696 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: So it was IRV like when you give him the book, 697 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: did he have a ton of edits? Because it's it's 698 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: hard to tell somebody else's story, you know, like if 699 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: somebody would write my story, you know, I mean hack 700 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: I had a cliff all the time, and he's probably like, 701 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: what the heck, you're way too ever, Barry. Now somebody 702 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: heard my story, I'd probably be like, I just this 703 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 1: is how was IRV about It? Was very good about it. Um. Yeah, 704 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 1: And I think we built a good chemistry. We built 705 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: the trust because I told him early on, Look, I'm 706 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: gonna try and make you talk about things that are 707 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: uncomfortable for you. Talking about your your favorite memories is 708 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: gonna be easy. When you start talking about you know, 709 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: your father, you know, beating your mother, your your mother's death. 710 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: You know some of the poverty you went through. It's 711 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: gonna be hard for you, and I'm gonna have to 712 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 1: take you places you don't want to go. But if 713 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: you go there, the book will be better. And so yeah, definitely. 714 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: You know the part about you know, his father, his 715 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: father worked, would come on Friday nights from the factory, 716 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: and that's when he knew it was gonna be a 717 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: bad night because his father had just gotten paid. He 718 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: would set aside a certain amount of money on the 719 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: kitchen table for the family, and then he would go 720 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: straight to the bar. And when he came back from 721 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,399 Speaker 1: the bar, that's when he'd be drunk and he'd getting 722 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: into it with HER's mom. So I knew that I 723 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: was gonna be hard. He broke down and cried, you know, 724 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: like talking about it, and but he did it. And 725 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: then when I said him that chapter it was cool. 726 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: Then I'm like, okay, from here, the rest of its 727 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: shouldn't be its hard. Well, the book is burying across 728 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: my inspiring journey from poverty to the NFL and sports television. Again. 729 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: It's about Earth Cross. It's available now. It came out 730 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: in March, so it's out there now. So go ahead 731 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: and check it out. I'm sure Amazon, right, Amazon and 732 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: thrift Books are the two places easier to find. If 733 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: you google up Earth, Cross Burning across all the information 734 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: will come up. And yeah, I'm really humble, you know, 735 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: thanks for having me on talking about this. But it's 736 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,399 Speaker 1: gotten a nice review filled off Inquire Chicago Tribune. Mike 737 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: Wilbon mentioned it on Party and Eruption on Richard Dice podcast, 738 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: talking about it because he loved Earth. So yeah, it's 739 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: gotten a lot of good feedback. And yeah, it's not 740 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: just a sports book obviously, the kind of life he's lived, 741 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: you know, it touches on a lot of subjects that 742 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: I think people will be interested in if they take 743 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: the time to read. Well, now it's at the big time. 744 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: It's on the louch right part of the interruption. Yeah, 745 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: so thank you clipping to make sure everybody out there 746 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: go ahead or yourself a copy. Yeah, so that's it 747 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: for us. This week, big game coming up against the Steelers, 748 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,919 Speaker 1: Big big game. Cliff is gonna be there to break 749 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: it down and we're all very excited about that. So 750 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: after the big, big win against the Steelers on Sunday 751 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: Night Football, we'll be back with another guest. It's gonna 752 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 1: be tough to live up the Cliff and John Eisenberg, 753 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: but we'll do our best. Thanks guys, see you next week.