WEBVTT - Jay Blasi 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:00.760 I miss the green. 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:03.480 For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:04.960 in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:07.000 And when I find my ball in a frid Egg 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:11.720 Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday Friday Bride Egg. 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.120 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the golf course. 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.879 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.320 Frida Egg Podcast. This morning, we're joined by golf course 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:50.920 architect Jay Blasi. Jay was an integral part in the 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:57.480 design of Chambers Bay under Robert Trent Jones Junior Design 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.200 and uh now he's out on his own, recently completed 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.039 a great project at Santa Ana Country Club and is 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:09.399 a big part of the Sharp Park movement and restoration 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:10.600 in San Francisco. 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.119 Jay, welcome on, Thanks so much. 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:15.319 Andy, I'm excited to join you. 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.080 Yeah, yeah, it'd be fun. Hey. 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:21.959 The thing I always like to start out with these 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.920 conversations is I'm curious about how you got into golf 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.800 and then how when did you kind of decide you 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:30.440 want to be a golf course architect. 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:32.640 Yeah. 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:36.480 Well, for me, it started really early and kind of 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:38.280 close to your heart. My dad grew up on the 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:38.919 South Side. 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.959 Of Chicago and was a caddye at Beverly. 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.319 And so that's how he fell in love with the game. 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.400 And he met my mom at the University of Wisconsin 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:52.040 and they settled in Madison. And so when I was born, 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:57.400 he brought plastic clubs to the hospital, and when he 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:00.160 was a teacher, and so he had summers off. On 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:02.880 his summer's off, he worked on the Grountin's crew and 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:08.079 he befriended the superintendent, who was an influential guy in 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.000 Wisconsin from the superintendent side of things with Roe Miller, 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:15.280 and so when they built their first house, he convinced 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.480 the superintendent to come over and build a putting green 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.639 in the backyard. So I was lucky enough to grow 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.080 up I had a putting green in my backyard. 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:25.040 And then we moved when I was young, and we 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:25.680 ended up with. 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.000 A putting green with two little bunkers. And then we 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.600 moved again, and I then we moved out to the 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.280 country and had seven acres, and then we had three 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.800 putting greens in the yard or three little golf holes 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.520 in the yard. So my interest in the game started, 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:44.040 you know, literally when I was born, and all through 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:49.520 my childhood and then my interest in architecture really started 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.600 very young as well. When I was four or five, 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.360 We'd go out to dinner and I'd flip the place 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.959 mat over and draw golf holes and cryan. And we'd 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:03.080 take all sorts of family vacations, always driving vacations, and 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.240 I just spend the whole trip in the back seat 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.080 with my face plastered to the window, looking out at 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.160 the fun fields and visioning golf holes and stuff. So 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:16.360 the interest in that started started very young. And uh, 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:20.560 and then was very fortunate that uh uh, And thank 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:22.640 my parents again. They were really the ones who kind 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.120 of gave them the push. When it was time to 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:26.960 go to college. I had figured out that most people 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.480 in golf design had gotten a degree in open escape 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:34.840 architecture and and and so I knew that and was 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:39.120 passionate about designing golf courses, but for some reason didn't 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:42.920 necessarily think of it as a viable career anything. And 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:44.360 they were the ones who kind of kicked me in 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:46.880 the butt and said, no, you actually have you got 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:48.680 to go for this. If you're lucky enough to find 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:51.200 a passion life, you got to you gotta do you 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.280 go into business. You know, at any time but chase 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.760 your dreams or whatever. And so I went to the 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.800 University of Wisconsin, got a degree in landscape architecture, and 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.440 after school ended up with our teacher YouTube nice. 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.640 Yeah, I mean, I mean, getting to do what you 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.760 love and had a passion force into your kid is 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.600 probably like the most rewarding thing ever. I mean, you work, 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.040 it doesn't feel like work, which has got to be 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:18.320 so refreshing for you. 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.360 It is, And I think that would be one thing 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.880 that I would you know, whether it's golf, architecture or 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.640 anything else. I mean, I think, you know, as a 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:32.080 as a country, as a as a society, would be 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.200 far better served if we really encouraged all of our 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:41.320 young people to find a passion and chase that. Because 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.200 if you're passionate about something, you're going to be good 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.200 at it, and you're going to put You're going to 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.000 put in the extra time and effort, and you know, 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.440 everything is better. You know, when when somebody's passionate about something, 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.640 the outcomes are always are always better. So U yeah, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.400 I feel fortunate. I pinch myself every day that I 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.560 get to do this, and I wish more people had 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.680 the opportunity to follow their dreams and chase their dreams. 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:10.039 Yeah, it's. 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:15.080 I imagine how long until you move out you're in 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:18.640 San Francisco, you can't have a putting green in your 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.719 back yard now, I bet, But like, how long you 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.280 know when you're going to get your putting green, your 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:25.080 own putting green. 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:28.600 That's a great question. 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:29.720 Yeah, there are no. 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.080 I don't have any putting green here in the Bay Area, 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.880 that's for sure. I feel very fortunate to have a 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.440 roof and four walls. That the cost of living out here. 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.320 But I'm lucky enough that if if I hop in 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.440 the car and go twenty minutes, I get to make 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:47.960 use of the Stanford Practice facilities. So that's a pretty 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.719 good putting green backyard situation for me. 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:51.719 Yeah, that's good. 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:54.400 So growing up, did you have to take care of 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.880 the putting green? Did you learn some like agronomy from that? 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.160 And like who who had to mow the green? 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:06.200 Well? I would mow it. My dad would know it. 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:09.960 I have a younger brother, he would mow it. I 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:14.359 probably was not as good or in tune with the 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:16.839 maintenance side of things as I should have been when 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.120 I was little. But interestingly enough, yeah, my dad had 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:23.800 this really old cool mower that I think he had 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:28.880 gotten somehow on some kind of auction or something and whatnot, 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.359 and we'd know it, we'd mow it and whatnot. I 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:34.520 did get to lay out the first little court. You know, 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.080 when I talk about the backyard putting green, this is 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:38.240 nothing too fancy. 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:38.800 I mean, it's a. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.719 Small, little residential lot. But we made up a eighteen 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.600 whole course. You know, the longest shot was fifteen yards, 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:47.599 but we made up a little eighteen whole course in 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:52.360 the backyard. So that was probably my first layout, was 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.480 laying out the eighteen old course, and then we made 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.120 up a little scorecard and we'd always had little competitions 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.240 in the backyard. It's a good way to grow up. 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:02.480 Yeah, it's funny. My buddy. 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:05.360 I had a really good buddy growing up that lived 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:07.200 up the street and we both, you know. 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.840 We'd play golf like all summer long together. 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.360 But when we weren't at the course we were playing, 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:17.320 we'd play front yard with football golf and like, thank God, 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.400 you know, God bless our neighbors because we would we 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:21.040 had all. 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:21.960 These different holes. 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:25.200 You know, the street was a water hazard, and we'd 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:29.120 play across into people's yards and you know, the trees 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:31.360 were the holes, and I mean it was so much fun. 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:35.000 But you know it was you start to design kind 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.440 of holes like, oh, this one's a dog like left 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.200 like and you got a you know, the different tough 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.480 features of it. You have to lay up sometimes if 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.720 you couldn't carry the carry the street. So it was 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.040 so fun when you're you know, I wish you could 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:49.680 go back to that. 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:50.680 Almost. 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:55.160 Oh yeah, I've done the same thing and it's great fun. Yeah, 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:57.640 what's better than that? Growing up like that as a kid. 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:03.240 I had a really fun thing happened, you know, by 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.840 just by happenstance. My next door neighbor, who I a 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.800 number of times as a as a six year old, 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.240 was taking gibbots out of his yard, you know, And 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.880 here I am, you know, twenty eight thirty years later, 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.120 I'm working on Central World back up in northern Wisconsin, 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:27.200 and it was time to kind of make a pitch 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:31.160 to the board of directors at Centry Insurance who were 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.520 going to approve the project. And in walks my former 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.560 next door neighbor, who now you know, he's ahead of 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:43.720 a now he's he became the head of an energy 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.680 company and he's on the board of directors and he 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:48.840 looks and he lights up like a candle, and I 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.079 look at him and he just puts his arm around 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:52.480 me and he looks to the rest of the board. 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:52.880 He goes. 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:55.920 The last time I saw Jay Pozzi, he was hitting 0:08:55.960 --> 0:09:00.800 golf balls out of my backyard. Yeah, so it comes 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:01.360 full circle. 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.880 Yeah, that's uh, it was, you know, thank god. 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.040 If any of my neighbors are listening, they got to 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.080 you know, they they let me and my buddy just 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:13.800 just hack divots out of their front yard all the time. 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:19.600 So so, uh, yeah, I gotta be honest. 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:25.400 I uh, I'm not a big the biggest Jones family fan. Uh, 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.960 having played a lot of their courses, I I disagree 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.880 with a lot of their principles. And I'm curious from 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.760 you working on the inside, you know, tell us a 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:39.760 little bit about what it's like to work for rt 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.240 J two and and kind of how the whole design 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.160 process works with a with a you know, one of 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:48.880 the biggest architectural firms in the in the world. 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.640 Yeah. So I think you know, to touch on your 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:58.040 comments first about you know, the Jones family and design philosophies. 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:01.320 I think it's important to I recognized. You know, when 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.120 you when you talk about the family, there really are 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.920 kind of three different parts to that that tree, right, 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.800 So you've got RTJ Senior, uh and and then you've 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:16.320 got the two sons, Uh, Bobby, rt J two and Reeve. 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.040 So I think it's important to make sure that you know, 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.920 they're all kind of uh it be it's easy to 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.360 kind of lump them all together, but but in reality, 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.680 they're each their own entity, right. So I never had 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:34.480 the chance to meet rtjuh Senior. I know some of 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:36.520 the you know, many of the people in the rt 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:41.240 J two office obviously, UH. And Bobby will be you know, 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.120 tells lots of stories about his dad and and stuff. 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.120 So I never had a chance to meet him. And 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.640 I've really spent very little time been in the same 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.240 room with Reese, but really haven't spent any time with him. 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.160 So uh. In terms of my experience at r t 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:57.600 J too, it was it was a great experience. And 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.560 that you know, I was a kid right out of 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.320 you know, right out of college, and you get the 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.200 opportunity to work at, like you say, one of the bigger, 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:11.800 more well known design firms in the world, and you 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.000 just get exposed to so much. I mean, there were 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:18.079 projects all over the world. They came in all sorts 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.600 of different shapes and sizes, So you were exposed to, 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:25.920 you know, a municipal project that were required a RFP 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.960 and an RFQ, So you got exposed to that kind 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:34.520 of process and what goes into trying to win a 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:38.000 job that way. And at the same time, then another 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.600 project was going to be a private club that was 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.320 privately owned by a billionaire, right, So you're getting to 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:49.360 see different ends of the spectrum from that side of things. 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.640 The sites that came across, I mean, there would be 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:58.000 sites that were really special and others that were not 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:01.520 special at all. You'd see, you know, uh, whether it 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.480 was something in Asia that was a dead flat, you know, 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.000 the rice paddy, and then uh, something else in Asia 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:10.840 that was you know, the side of a mountain. 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:11.640 Uh. 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.680 And then and then you'd see all you know, so 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.760 you got to see uh and got exposed to everything. 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.560 And then uh, you know, even in the golf design world, 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.400 even the big firms, you know what you call the 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.960 big firms, every day we only had a half a 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:34.120 dozen people, you know. Uh, So then you get to 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.520 learn about each of those people and and they each 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.240 have a different background and story, and they kind of 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.800 have their own little design philosophy or or things that 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.680 tendencies that they like to do on the projects that 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.480 they work on. So, you know, even if you don't 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.160 agree one hundred percent with with each of with past 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.960 work or each of the design philosophies, it was a 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:01.560 wonderful uh opportunity and ex experience and great exposure to 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.600 a wide variety of things. Part of the golf business. 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:10.160 Yeah, I imagine the big firm allows you so many 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:16.160 opportunities to whether it's not even working on but getting 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.000 to just see great you know, some of the best 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.960 courses you know, and as well as you know getting 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.200 you know, the volume of work and the volume of 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.640 projects is so high that you get inundated so much 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:33.400 quickly as a young kid. 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.240 Yeah, I think coming right out of school, it was, 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:39.400 like I said, it was a great experience. You know, 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.800 my first couple of years there, I didn't you know, 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:45.400 I was assisting other people, so I wasn't playing a 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.520 real creative role in any any project. But you know, 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:55.120 when when you see when when the you know, whether 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.320 it was Bobby or somebody who was doing business development, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.400 went out, they took a trip to Europe, and they 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:04.440 come back and they say, hey, I met with this guy, 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:09.320 and here's here's the topo map for this site, you know, 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:15.319 and and then somebody in the office puts together put 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:20.880 together a preliminary routing just to see what could fit 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.320 on the site, or a preliminary grading plan. And then 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.520 you know, if my job then those first couple of 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:30.080 years was to uh, you know, trace that or draw 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.760 it up pretty or or enter it into the computer 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.240 or whatever. You know, that's just that's an opportunity. You know, 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.880 how many uh, twenty two year olds get the opportunity 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:45.720 to spend six hours looking at the topo map and 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.520 routing and trying to understand. And so what I would 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.400 do is I would I would do whatever I was 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.480 supposed to be doing, which is, you know, drawing up 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.760 somebody else's idea. And then I'd take that same topo 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.200 map and take it home at night and my own 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:03.080 force and do my own thing. And then I'd bring 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.880 it in and share it with whoever I was working 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.480 with and say, hey, you know, give me some feedback 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.440 on this, you know, So again just kind of great 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.160 exposure all the way around. 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:18.000 Yeah, Yeah, what would you say you learned most over 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:20.080 during your time there. 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.520 Well, I think I again, I think it was you know, 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:30.040 it was probably not any one lesson, but that there 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:35.080 were just exposure to different things, like, you know, exposure 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.720 to the RFP process for public projects and meeting with 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.840 clients from all around the world and different cultures and 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.080 different backgrounds. And one thing that Bobby pointed out one 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.520 day we were on site that there's something that I 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.000 take with me and still think about a lot. As 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.960 we were out there talking about, you know, a certain 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.720 golf hole, and you know, he was asking me to 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:03.480 walk in through my thoughts on something and and and 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:07.160 then he said, well, you know, it's important to remember 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:11.040 that people see things differently. Just because you and I 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.400 are standing next to each other looking at the same 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.360 thing doesn't mean that we see it the same way. 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:20.600 And so it's really important to be really good with 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.560 communication and make sure that you're you're verbalizing and you're talking, 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.920 and you're working with whoever you're you're working with on 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.840 the project, whether it's the owner or another designer or 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.320 the contractor or whoever, to make sure that you really 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:41.320 communicate well and understand what they're seeing. Don't just assume 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.680 that because you're standing next to each other looking at 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:45.440 the same thing, that you see the same thing. So 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.960 that's something that that I took away and I use 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:49.440 every day. 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:55.560 Yeah, I feel like that's like when when people get 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:59.320 to walk with an architects and I see it. You know, 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.160 when I've I've played with I've gotten the opportunity to 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:05.199 play with some architects, is like, you know, they just 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.719 see they see things in such a different way. And 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.400 you know, I feel like I'm pretty well read and 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.479 I see things in certain ways, but you know, they 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.359 they and being able to communicate that to someone is 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:21.240 so tough because a lot of times, like the person 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.200 you're dealing with on a on a project from whether 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.359 it be a club side or an owner's side, isn't 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:31.800 necessarily as well read and don't understand you know, the 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:33.480 principles behind architecture. 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.639 Absolutely that that is so true, and you see that 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:41.760 on it. You know, I see that on every project 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.200 I work on, and it just becomes more and more 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.000 clear over time, and it makes sense. You know, if 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.680 somebody we're trying to explain to me, you know the 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.439 details of the you know, the wiring in the house. 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:56.240 You know, I wouldn't understand what they're talking about, and 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.920 they could be eloquent and and walk walk me through 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:01.840 at a basic level, and I may or may not 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:06.280 get it right. But you know, as a golf architect, yeah, 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:10.080 I go out and I, you know, look at an 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:13.240 existing golf hole and I can immediately right in my 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.520 mind see what I might want it to be, or 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.879 or see an alternative. Or if you're looking at vacant land, 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:23.320 you know, you can go out there and you can 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.560 see right away how how you might want certain things 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:30.479 to unfold. But the ability to try to communicate that 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.159 and walk people through that is it's an important skill 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.280 and it's a it's a challenging exercise. I think when 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:41.400 we were working on Santa Ana over the last few years, 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.119 we would, uh, you know, I spent a lot of 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.639 time with the members kind of walking through what the 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.679 what the vision is, what the plans were, and then 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.680 we'd have like a construction walk through, you know. So 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.160 we would be in the middle of construction and Friday afternoon, 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:57.520 we'd invite the members out. We'd go walk around and 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.679 I'd walk them through, Okay, here we are, We're on 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:02.920 the first hole. We're on the left hand side. We're 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.439 starting to shape a bunker over there. The green's going 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.840 to be up ahead, and this is what we're trying 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:12.240 to set up. And you'd walk people through that and 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.240 then say are there any questions? And somebody would say 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.400 is there going to be a bunker, and I'd say, well, yeah, 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:20.600 actually I just told you we're actually standing in the 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.080 bunker right here. Oh I couldn't see that. You know, 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:28.119 looking looking at dirt is really really hard hard for people. 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.600 And as soon as the grass goes down, now all 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.000 of a sudden kind of the aha moment comes, Oh, 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.639 now I understand what you were telling me. But sometimes 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.399 it's it's really tough along the way to uh, you know, 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:41.560 for people who don't do this all day every day 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:43.160 to kind of see it. 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:48.439 Yeah, the course I play at in Chicago. When I 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:50.919 say I play at, I've played there like three times 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.600 this year. But to old Donald Ross and all of 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.560 our greens are like so small compared to what their 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:01.439 original design was. And there they're to small ovals and 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:06.439 circles because of irrigation and maintenance things, and you know, 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:08.919 it just happened over time. But you know, and then 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.760 they put in these sprinklers and you see sprinklers on 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.560 where the green should be and even trees on it 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.280 where and I, you know, I texted my buddies, I 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.720 took some aerial shots with my drone and then you know, 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.840 photoshopped over them like where the green should be. And they, 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:26.479 you know, nobody really knows what you're you know, they 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.160 look at and they're like, oh, this guy's just crazy. 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.400 But then when you play with them and you walk 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:34.040 and you show them, it's like, look at this where 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:34.919 this green should go. 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.480 And then look imagine this pin, Like imagine how this 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.880 pin completely changes the whole and how when you get 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:45.000 these greens over close to the bunkers, how much more 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.480 of a challenge it is. And it's not necessarily even 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:50.920 just the pinnable surface. It's the stuff that's not pinnable 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.600 that makes the ball roll off the green ten yards. 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:59.199 Absolutely. Yeah, I'm sure that they would be uh that 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.200 you could talk to them for months and months and months, 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:03.720 But if you snuck out in the middle of the 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:08.159 night and mow down the area in question to something 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.200 close to green height, they'd probably see it a lot, 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:11.280 a lot easier. 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:15.399 Yeah, it's yeah, hoping they'd do something that at this fall. 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.919 But so you know, on the subject, you know, what 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.480 do you think went wrong with golf course architecture? 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:24.280 And not to say. 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.680 There weren't any good projects, but with this dearth of 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.280 projects that you know, end up now being just you know, 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:33.760 kind of sores on the golf community. 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.200 From like nineteen sixty to two thousand. 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:40.879 And five, well, I think a couple of things. So 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:44.520 first I would I might have a little bit different 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.879 time frame because I think that probably in the mid 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.879 nineties there at least started to be a lot a 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.240 lot of better stuff that started to come about. So 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:58.520 I don't know if you'd got you know, from ninety 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:01.600 five to two thousand and five, sure, there were dozens 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:05.800 of golf courtre maybe even hundreds of golf courses, but 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:09.760 people spent a lot of time and money and that 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:12.880 aren't very special. But there also were some that are 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.199 pretty special. So I'm not sure you want to totally 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:21.080 lump them all together, but I think to me, there's 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:24.440 probably three things. The first thing to keep in mind 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:30.800 was that that kind of coincided with technology advances in 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:35.400 terms of earth moving, in terms of agronomy, so all 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.919 of a sudden, whereas in the early nineteen hundreds, a 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:42.080 golf course was pretty much built where a golf course 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:44.640 should be built, right, A group of people would get 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:47.199 together and they'd say, hey, we're interested in forming a 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:50.320 golf club, and they'd go out and they'd find the 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.480 appropriate land because they didn't have the ability to create 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:56.600 their own environment, right, so they had to find an 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:01.920 environment that was suitable for golf, and so the land 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:05.159 was better. You know, there weren't golf carts, you know, 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:09.000 So now you're laying out a golf course that's walkable, 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.400 and you're trying to lay one out that doesn't require 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:14.679 earth moving. So now fast forward to the sixties, and 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:17.320 all of a sudden, we're building golf courses proally where 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:20.119 they don't belong. We're building them in swamps and deserts 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.720 and mountain sides, and all of a sudden, we've got 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:27.960 golf carts and we've got big bulldozers. So now if 0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:30.640 the environment doesn't work for us, we'll create our own. 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:35.720 And if the parcel doesn't work, well, we can piecemeal 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:38.640 a couple of them together and play a hole and 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:42.520 drive two hundred yards and play another hole. So those 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:47.520 are some of the things that probably went awry. The 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:50.720 other thing is that the reason for building a golf 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:53.840 course probably changed. You know, back in the early nineteen hundreds, 0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:57.040 people got together and they built a golf course because 0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:00.680 they wanted to play off. The vast majority of courses 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.080 probably from nineteen sixty one, we're probably built for a 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:07.520 reason other than golf, whether that was to sell real 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:11.560 estate or fill hotel rooms and be an amenity for 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:16.479 some kind of a resort. So with those things in mind, 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:22.600 the reasoning for having a golf course was different. That 0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:28.520 led to, in my opinion, what is very troubling, and 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:32.080 that's just a ton of artificial features. Right, So all 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:36.320 of a sudden, we're using the bulldozer to craft a 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:39.600 new landscape, and we're building a bunch of artificial lakes, 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:44.720 and we're plant and flowers and planting trees everywhere. And 0:24:44.760 --> 0:24:47.040 now we've got golf carts, so we start putting in 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:52.560 seven miles of concrete ribbons all over the place. So 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:57.359 all the stuff that takes away from from great golf 0:24:57.400 --> 0:24:59.200 and all the stuff that we love about the golf 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:03.160 from the early ninety teen hundreds, you know, we're kind 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:05.800 of kind of did the opposite for a big period 0:25:05.800 --> 0:25:08.919 of time there, and now we're kind of at a 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:11.600 very interesting time in golf architecture that we've got a 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:17.480 lot of wonderful projects that really are are you know, 0:25:17.600 --> 0:25:21.160 kind of recapturing the essence of the early nineteen hundreds 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:25.760 where somebody's building a golf course for to build a 0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:27.920 special golf course because people want to play golf. And 0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:31.000 at the same time, then there's still also a number. 0:25:30.800 --> 0:25:33.240 Of projects where people are building a golf course to. 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:36.000 Full hotel rooms and to sell real estate. So you've 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:38.480 kind of got this interesting dichotomy that's going on. 0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:41.840 Now, Yeah, what do you you say? 0:25:42.119 --> 0:25:44.800 You know, I think one of the things I think 0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:47.760 about a lot is all these golf courses that were 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:51.560 you know, they aren't you know, they aren't the best 0:25:51.560 --> 0:25:54.840 golf courses, But what happens to them in the future, 0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:59.280 Like how can we you know, are they can they 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:02.359 be fixed? And can they be made into something that's 0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:04.679 good for the game and a good golf course for 0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:06.040 people to play every day? 0:26:06.359 --> 0:26:08.240 And how do you go about doing that? 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:13.879 Yeah, So I think it's an interesting question. And like 0:26:13.960 --> 0:26:17.200 everything with golf, it's site specific, right, So the right 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:22.120 solution on site A is not the right solution at 0:26:22.240 --> 0:26:25.800 site B, and the right solution in city A might 0:26:25.840 --> 0:26:29.840 not be the right solution in city B. But we're 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:32.879 definitely at a time in golf where, you know, we 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:37.760 have a lot more courses closing than opening. And what's 0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:40.480 interesting to me is the ones that are closing aren't 0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:45.960 always the worst golf courses, right, which is tragic, But 0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:50.800 it seems one thing that I've certainly noticed is that 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:55.320 there's so many, like you said, usually golf courses that 0:26:55.920 --> 0:27:00.439 were built from nineteen sixty on or renovated from nineteen 0:27:00.560 --> 0:27:04.119 sixty on. That just leaves so much to be desired, 0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:10.120 and that's really a shame. And so I'm cautiously optimistic 0:27:10.160 --> 0:27:13.440 that over the next twenty years, many of those golf 0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:17.240 courses that you know, one of my favorite things to 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:19.760 do is to go look on Google Earth, right, you 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:21.920 could just go around and go check out different golf 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:24.640 courses all over the world or all over the country, 0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:29.240 and there are so many golf courses that might be 0:27:29.280 --> 0:27:32.760 in a good location, in a good city, in a 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:35.200 good area, and then you go look at the golf 0:27:35.240 --> 0:27:38.679 course and every single hole, you know, the green is 0:27:38.680 --> 0:27:42.960 the same size oval. There's a bunker short left, there's 0:27:43.000 --> 0:27:47.200 a bunker short right. You know, there's usually one fairway 0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:50.639 bunker out there. Everything's been planted with trees over the 0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:53.800 last forty years, so you know, you know that you're 0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:56.399 just hitting the same shot over and over again. You 0:27:56.440 --> 0:27:58.960 get up on every tee and keep it between the trees, 0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:02.000 and you hit into every green and it's you. 0:28:01.960 --> 0:28:03.520 Know, avoid the hazards right. 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:05.120 And left and get it out of the green and 0:28:05.160 --> 0:28:09.679 stay below the whole. But those are golf courses that 0:28:11.000 --> 0:28:14.840 might be in a good area where, you know, if 0:28:14.920 --> 0:28:18.560 and when the time comes to replace the infrastructure, the 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:22.560 irrigation system and the drainage and stuff, rather than investing 0:28:22.680 --> 0:28:26.280 in all of that infrastructure and keeping things the way 0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:29.240 they are, when it's time to invest in the infrastructure, 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:33.400 that's the time to make some changes and make sure that, hey, 0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:37.679 we can take this property that's already permitted as a 0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:40.000 golf course and already zoned as a golf course and 0:28:40.080 --> 0:28:44.120 has a good market and get rid of this mediocre 0:28:44.160 --> 0:28:47.280 thing and make something special and give people the stuff 0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:50.320 that we all kind of yearned for, the stuff from 0:28:50.320 --> 0:28:54.200 the early nineteen hundreds where people had options and angles, 0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:58.320 and there was a lot of variety and strategy and 0:28:59.200 --> 0:29:01.480 thought to thought to the round of golf. 0:29:02.320 --> 0:29:07.680 It's interesting I hosted a lot of people on this podcast, 0:29:07.720 --> 0:29:12.080 and I've noticed over time that almost everybody, you know, 0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:15.520 not almost, I would say the vast majority of people 0:29:15.560 --> 0:29:17.920 that I host on this podcast that are involved with 0:29:18.120 --> 0:29:23.280 golf today grew up playing at a municipal or a 0:29:23.360 --> 0:29:27.680 public golf course. And I think to myself, Okay, the 0:29:27.760 --> 0:29:32.360 majority of those experiences probably weren't the best golf course experiences. 0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:36.520 And imagine if those courses were really fun to play 0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:41.800 and had really sound architectural principles, not to mention the 0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:45.840 sustainability aspect of you know, if you don't have too 0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:49.840 many hazards, how much cheaper it is to maintain, and 0:29:50.120 --> 0:29:53.440 how these different little things like how many more great 0:29:53.480 --> 0:29:56.560 people would we have, you know, involved with the game 0:29:56.600 --> 0:29:59.480 still if they grew up at a place that was 0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:00.640 really goo great play. 0:30:03.320 --> 0:30:07.640 Yeah. I think I certainly agree that municipal golf is 0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:12.320 important and it's where many people got their start. I 0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:16.240 certainly got my start in Madison playing on municipal golf 0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:21.520 courses and loved it, and I wholeheartedly agree that it 0:30:21.560 --> 0:30:24.680 would be awesome. It doesn't cost any more money to 0:30:24.720 --> 0:30:28.680 build an architecturally interesting golf course than it does architecturally 0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:33.600 uninteresting golf course, right, and if you're smart about it, 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:38.280 you can craft one that's maybe easier to maintain as well. 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:42.040 At the same time, to your point, I guess where 0:30:42.080 --> 0:30:44.040 I made different a little bit is that, you know, 0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:46.480 at that age, you know, as much as I was 0:30:46.560 --> 0:30:50.560 interested in golf as a eight year old or a 0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:53.760 twelve year old, I probably wasn't at a point where 0:30:53.800 --> 0:31:00.160 I was really at least consciously understanding the different it's 0:31:00.160 --> 0:31:02.800 of great architecture at that At that point, I think 0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:05.960 I was excited to have a go play a safe 0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:08.240 place to go play golf and have have fun with 0:31:08.280 --> 0:31:12.040 my friend, you know. And I think it's important that 0:31:12.080 --> 0:31:17.160 we certainly preserve and do everything that we can to 0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:20.640 to make sure that municipal golf does stick around, because 0:31:21.120 --> 0:31:26.640 in today's climate, uh, with with city budgets and stuff 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:29.400 like that, that's a tough task. I mean, if people 0:31:29.440 --> 0:31:33.040 have a choice between uh, you know, the fire department 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:35.560 and the golf course, the fire department is going to win, 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:39.760 and it probably should. Yeah, And yet and yet the 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:45.680 golf course does have a very important place in a community. 0:31:45.840 --> 0:31:48.840 It's a it's a great community gathering spot. It's a 0:31:48.880 --> 0:31:52.320 place where people can have a healthy activity, but particularly 0:31:52.360 --> 0:31:58.880 if people walk, uh you know, playing golf, you know, 0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:02.960 and golf courses uh you know, Bobby always you talk 0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:05.320 about the golf courses are kind of the green lungs 0:32:05.360 --> 0:32:07.520 of a city. You know, if you fly across America 0:32:07.520 --> 0:32:10.800 and look down, most of the green spaces in America's 0:32:10.840 --> 0:32:13.840 cities are golf courses. So you know, it's a great 0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:20.000 place to be outdoors and with and walk and get 0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:21.920 a good experience that way, and it's a great place 0:32:21.960 --> 0:32:23.160 to bring a community together. 0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:23.960 Yeah. 0:32:23.960 --> 0:32:26.840 I think if you if you just focus on like 0:32:27.000 --> 0:32:30.880 city owned golf courses for like major metropolitan areas and 0:32:30.880 --> 0:32:34.920 and really made those like really fun, cool places to play, 0:32:35.320 --> 0:32:37.960 it would it would make such a difference. I think 0:32:37.960 --> 0:32:41.000 about my home to the city Chicago. We have a 0:32:41.120 --> 0:32:43.200 nine hole course called Sydney Maravitz. 0:32:43.600 --> 0:32:44.640 It used to be called. 0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:47.120 Waveland up on the north side of the city and 0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:50.520 it's it's a it's right on the lake, I mean 0:32:50.800 --> 0:32:52.880 the most in it's right in the heart of the city. 0:32:52.920 --> 0:32:56.080 It's the easiest course to get to. But the golf 0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:58.680 course is just so bland and and there's a lot 0:32:58.680 --> 0:33:00.840 of trees. It's tight, and you get a ton of 0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:03.320 beginners out there, and I always think, like, why not 0:33:03.480 --> 0:33:06.280 just take all the trees out, make it fairway grass 0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:09.400 all around, and you've got these beautiful lake views. And 0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:12.160 instead of it taking four hours to play nine holes, 0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:14.400 it probably would take you know, three hours or two 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:16.920 and a half and to be just much more interesting 0:33:16.920 --> 0:33:17.520 golf course. 0:33:19.360 --> 0:33:20.760 Let's do it. I'm ready. 0:33:21.000 --> 0:33:23.680 I just need to. I got to get in with 0:33:23.760 --> 0:33:25.240 big politics in Chicago. 0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:28.720 I guess, well, that's an easy thing to navigate. Yeah, 0:33:28.720 --> 0:33:31.840 I'm sure that. I'm sure that you know, one meeting 0:33:31.920 --> 0:33:34.840 and share your vision and they'll be ready to go 0:33:34.920 --> 0:33:35.600 and make it happen. 0:33:35.800 --> 0:33:39.120 Right, Yeah, no money, you know, just go in there. 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:42.560 It's a it's a pretty much bankruptcity. Just go in 0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:44.520 there and say, hey, we need a we need a 0:33:44.520 --> 0:33:50.680 couple of million for this. But so I'm curious just 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:55.280 with you know, being a younger architect and having seen 0:33:55.840 --> 0:33:59.080 you you probably remember hitting a lot of golf balls. 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:01.840 I remember it. We're close to the same age. 0:34:02.360 --> 0:34:07.160 And having lived through this change in technology and especially 0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:11.600 the golf ball. What do you see as like the 0:34:11.640 --> 0:34:15.719 future of golf course architecture, because what we're seeing from 0:34:15.880 --> 0:34:21.600 the high level player is that the really the skills 0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:24.279 that you need now are being able to hit the 0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:27.120 driver long and straight and be a good short iron 0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:30.920 wedge player and make putts and this whole long iron 0:34:32.000 --> 0:34:35.520 and working the golf ball has kind of died with 0:34:35.680 --> 0:34:38.440 the advancements of the ball in the last ten to 0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:44.520 fifteen years. 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:42.600 No doubt about it. 0:34:42.960 --> 0:34:46.320 And the truth is that you know, when you combine 0:34:46.400 --> 0:34:52.000 the technology advances and how that impacts them, you know, 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:55.520 really the one percent the very top players of the 0:34:55.560 --> 0:34:59.400 game golf is not sustainable at that I mean in 0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:03.480 order to you know, if we're going to keep technology 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:06.520 the way that it is, or keep allowing advancements in 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:11.160 technology with you know, the two players and the college kids, 0:35:11.160 --> 0:35:13.480 I mean, you've got to build an eighty five hundred 0:35:13.520 --> 0:35:16.200 or nine thousand yard golf course to challenge those guys, 0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:18.359 and that means more land, and then that means more 0:35:18.400 --> 0:35:22.239 water and more resources, and it's it's just not sustainable. 0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:25.279 So not to mention the course that that course is 0:35:25.320 --> 0:35:27.960 only played by one percent of the population. 0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:31.719 Well, that's the thing is that you know, so much 0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:34.200 of the focus in the golf world and the attention 0:35:34.400 --> 0:35:40.000 and the media relates to a game that the other 0:35:40.120 --> 0:35:44.920 ninety percent aren't. Right. So, but the sad thing is 0:35:45.000 --> 0:35:49.880 what people see on TV is what they then, you know, 0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:54.680 kind of expect or demand at their facility. So, you know, 0:35:54.760 --> 0:35:58.760 Augusta National and the Masters. I mean, everybody in golf 0:35:58.960 --> 0:36:03.600 loves the Masters, and you know, all golf architects appreciate 0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:07.560 Augusta National, right, I mean, there's nothing really bad to 0:36:07.600 --> 0:36:11.080 say about it, except for the fact that you could 0:36:11.080 --> 0:36:15.799 make the case that the televising of the Masters and 0:36:16.480 --> 0:36:20.640 Augusta National every spring, everybody who ever plays golf watches 0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:23.960 the Masters, and then they go and they expect or 0:36:24.120 --> 0:36:27.480 want those types of conditions of their golf course. And 0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:30.359 what they don't understand is that, you know, the golf 0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:35.000 course Augusta is prepped all year for that event, and 0:36:35.040 --> 0:36:39.080 that they've got an unlimited budget, and that that doesn't 0:36:40.560 --> 0:36:44.919 that is not the case at your local union in Chicago. 0:36:45.000 --> 0:36:49.080 And so now there's this, you know, there's everybody's pushing 0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:52.719 to make their golf course, you know green, and I 0:36:52.760 --> 0:36:56.520 don't mean environmentally friendly green, I mean artificial green, and 0:36:56.680 --> 0:36:59.400 let's put white sand in the bunkers and do all 0:36:59.440 --> 0:37:02.960 these different things. So those are the things that aren't 0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:06.480 really sustainable. And kind of to your point earlier about 0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:09.200 this pool golf and stuff, we I think we'd be 0:37:09.280 --> 0:37:11.319 well served to take a look at the Scots or 0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:15.719 take a look at Australia and see kind of how 0:37:15.760 --> 0:37:19.359 they do it and and and if we want golf 0:37:19.400 --> 0:37:22.600 to thrive over the long haul, that's that's probably a 0:37:22.600 --> 0:37:24.399 better model to look to mm hmm. 0:37:24.680 --> 0:37:25.600 Yeah, I agree. 0:37:26.800 --> 0:37:30.120 In terms of a project that you've been working on 0:37:30.200 --> 0:37:34.880 for now nearly a decade, the Sharp Park Park project, 0:37:34.920 --> 0:37:40.120 and it's the old Alisair Mackenzie course in the city 0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:43.719 of San Francisco owns it, and you know, it's a 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:47.799 great seaside location that over the years has been you 0:37:47.840 --> 0:37:51.920 know a little bit altered for environmental reasons, but just 0:37:52.000 --> 0:37:53.920 basically a neglected. 0:37:55.000 --> 0:37:56.360 Course that could be one. 0:37:56.239 --> 0:37:59.920 Of the finest public golf courses in the world, designed 0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:03.960 by arguably the greatest architect of all time. Tell us 0:38:03.960 --> 0:38:07.239 a little bit about Sharp Park and you know the 0:38:07.320 --> 0:38:08.360 journey of that course. 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:11.960 Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because it 0:38:12.040 --> 0:38:14.880 is such a special place. It's actually in the city 0:38:14.880 --> 0:38:18.040 of Pacifica, which is about fifteen minutes kind of south 0:38:18.040 --> 0:38:21.239 of San Francisco, but you gret the city does own 0:38:21.280 --> 0:38:25.960 the golf course. And so the reason that it's like 0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:30.799 you say, Kenzie golf course from the thirties, and it's 0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:33.120 been in the news and I've been involved, like you said, 0:38:33.280 --> 0:38:36.799 nearly a decade because there was a threat that we 0:38:36.800 --> 0:38:39.520 were actually going to lose the golf course. There were 0:38:40.040 --> 0:38:46.479 federal lawsuits over habitat for frogs and snakes, and two 0:38:46.520 --> 0:38:52.959 local golfers and lawyers got together, Richard Harris and Bowl Linx. 0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:56.279 And these guys are true heroes in the golf world. 0:38:56.320 --> 0:38:58.760 So if people haven't heard of them, they should google 0:38:58.800 --> 0:39:00.879 them and look them up. Them a thank you note. 0:39:00.880 --> 0:39:03.640 But they they basically got together and said, Hey, this 0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:07.280 this national treasure, this this museum, this monument is about 0:39:07.320 --> 0:39:11.360 to be uh stolen from us, and and we're golfers 0:39:11.400 --> 0:39:14.120 and we're environmentalists and this just doesn't have to be 0:39:14.200 --> 0:39:17.560 the case. And and so uh, they they kind of 0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:21.839 rallied the troops and engaged you know, the right uh 0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:26.160 legal team as well as the community, the golf community, 0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:30.279 the local golf community and have rallied and saved the 0:39:30.280 --> 0:39:32.800 golf course. So over the last you know, almost a decade, 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:36.920 the course has been involved in legal battles and thankfully, 0:39:37.440 --> 0:39:39.440 due to their great work, we've we've kind of we 0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:42.600 keep winning each of those legal battles to preserve to 0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:45.880 save the golf course. And then you know, our dream 0:39:46.280 --> 0:39:48.720 is to to be able to restore that and we're 0:39:48.760 --> 0:39:51.879 actively working towards that, and I think we'll we'll get there. 0:39:51.880 --> 0:39:54.239 It's it's a it's a long process. Like like you 0:39:54.280 --> 0:39:57.480 talked about, you know, governments aren't easy. It's a it's 0:39:57.520 --> 0:40:02.560 a site that does have challenges in terms of you know, 0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:05.839 there's a number of different government agencies that have some 0:40:05.920 --> 0:40:10.719 kind of kind of jurisdiction on the property. So navigating 0:40:10.880 --> 0:40:17.759 those those challenges or constraints are are difficult. But I 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:21.040 think there's a great chance that in the near future 0:40:21.080 --> 0:40:24.120 we'll get to put some of that McKenzie back or 0:40:24.280 --> 0:40:27.120 unpolish some of the mackenzie that's been defted over over 0:40:27.160 --> 0:40:29.640 the years, and I think that will be something that 0:40:30.520 --> 0:40:32.960 hopefully the golf world will embrace. I know they already 0:40:33.040 --> 0:40:35.680 have to save the golf course. But hopefully they'll get 0:40:35.719 --> 0:40:38.719 a chance to come out and see something special in 0:40:38.760 --> 0:40:39.399 the years to come. 0:40:40.360 --> 0:40:43.440 Yeah, it's something that I've been paying attention to. And 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:46.279 you always, you always want to see these courses. I 0:40:46.800 --> 0:40:51.160 have one in Chicago is Downers Grove Golf Club, which 0:40:51.200 --> 0:40:56.360 is nine hole course. But it's the original site of 0:40:56.480 --> 0:41:00.800 Chicago Golf Club and over the years, the Park District, 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:03.600 you know, since they took ownership of it, they've altered 0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:07.080 the course. They built a driving range and and now 0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:11.040 there's like there's four original holes. But I always think about, like, man, 0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:13.440 how cool would this thing to be be to get 0:41:13.480 --> 0:41:16.480 back to what it was and have a nine hole 0:41:17.200 --> 0:41:20.080 you know Cebe McDonald course. That was his first design 0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:21.160 ever in America. 0:41:21.680 --> 0:41:28.520 Yeah, it's crazy, very Yeah, you know, I think it 0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:30.600 sounds like a worthy cause to me. I mean it, 0:41:31.480 --> 0:41:38.200 you know, it's unfortunately we're at a stage where where 0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:41.280 stuff gets in the way, and so it is a challenge. 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:44.719 And so that's why people like Richard Bow and I'm 0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:47.919 sure there are others in Chicago and across the rest 0:41:47.960 --> 0:41:50.920 of the country that need to kind of step up 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:52.680 and fight and save the day. 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:55.400 And because this stuff is worth fighting for. It is 0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:58.120 worth saving, you know, Shark Park as much as we're 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:01.600 all interested in it. From the the golf course standpoint 0:42:01.640 --> 0:42:06.000 and the McKenny standpoint, it represents all that you would 0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:09.040 want about what a golf course should be to a community. 0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:13.120 You go out there today and you'll see people, you know, ages, 0:42:13.440 --> 0:42:17.480 you know, five to ninety, You'll see you know, twenty 0:42:17.560 --> 0:42:20.959 different ethnicities out there, and they're all you know, most 0:42:20.960 --> 0:42:24.640 of the people are out there walking. It just represents 0:42:24.719 --> 0:42:28.440 what the game is all about. And so those places 0:42:28.480 --> 0:42:31.120 are certainly worth we're fighting for and doing everything in 0:42:31.160 --> 0:42:33.759 our power to save and when we have a chance 0:42:33.840 --> 0:42:35.919 to restore them. 0:42:36.000 --> 0:42:39.839 Yeah, I think that's the the same same thing out there. 0:42:40.160 --> 0:42:42.640 You know, it's a pact shot sheet and that's part 0:42:43.080 --> 0:42:45.560 part of the reason they they haven't done anything is that, 0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:48.600 you know, it's a nine hole course that the community 0:42:48.640 --> 0:42:51.279 makes money on. So if it's not if it's not 0:42:51.400 --> 0:42:55.680 broken from a monetary standpoint, in their eyes, why do anything. 0:42:55.440 --> 0:43:00.640 Right, Yeah, I think you know, it's kind of the bleeding, 0:43:00.640 --> 0:43:01.359 the slow down. 0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:03.000 Right, if you've got. 0:43:03.280 --> 0:43:06.720 A major open wound in the middle of your forehead, then. 0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:08.560 You get to go to the emergency room. But if 0:43:08.560 --> 0:43:10.239 you've got a. 0:43:10.520 --> 0:43:15.359 Internal bleeding that you can't see, sometimes you don't see 0:43:15.400 --> 0:43:16.279 it until it's too late. 0:43:16.920 --> 0:43:19.520 That's a great and great analogy. I might have to 0:43:19.640 --> 0:43:19.960 use that. 0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:25.120 I've been talking about going to park district meetings and 0:43:25.239 --> 0:43:29.279 just you know, just trolling the park district for for 0:43:29.360 --> 0:43:31.359 a while. Now I might have to start doing that 0:43:31.400 --> 0:43:31.920 in the winter. 0:43:33.280 --> 0:43:33.680 There you go. 0:43:34.920 --> 0:43:38.440 So I want to you uh talk a little bit. 0:43:38.520 --> 0:43:40.680 You know, we've gotten on the subject of Golden Age 0:43:40.800 --> 0:43:45.080 architecture and I know your your kind of design principles 0:43:45.120 --> 0:43:48.920 are you know, throw back to the Golden Age. Who 0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:52.719 would you say are your biggest influences from the standpoint 0:43:52.880 --> 0:43:56.280 of architects. 0:43:56.880 --> 0:44:00.279 Yeah, great question. You know, I think again that you know, 0:44:00.360 --> 0:44:07.319 obviously mackenzie jumps to mind in terms of this exposure 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:13.120 is over time, I'm learning to appreciate more and more 0:44:14.680 --> 0:44:19.799 loss from a routing standpoint, appreciate some of those routings. 0:44:19.800 --> 0:44:22.880 But again it's it's it's tough to say, you know, 0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:26.120 I love all the kind of McDonald and Rayner stuff. 0:44:26.200 --> 0:44:30.560 It's interesting to see particularly where they would go out 0:44:30.560 --> 0:44:32.600 of their way to you know, if they had an 0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:35.319 idea they if they had to move a bunch of 0:44:35.320 --> 0:44:37.680 dirt to make it happen, they'd go for it type 0:44:37.680 --> 0:44:41.040 of thing. So that that that's always interesting. I think 0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:46.560 again it's just site specific, right, So those principles that 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:51.799 in California get exposed lots of George Thomas. So they're 0:44:51.880 --> 0:44:54.840 they're all unique and interesting and great and have different 0:44:55.120 --> 0:44:58.480 backgrounds to them. And and but you know, the overriding 0:44:58.560 --> 0:45:02.400 thing that I've kind of taken away from all of 0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:06.000 them was, you know, I personally love the idea of 0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:09.040 having golf courses be fun. I love the idea of 0:45:09.120 --> 0:45:15.160 golf courses being natural. I love the idea of strategy 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:17.520 and the and the golf ball on the ground and 0:45:17.560 --> 0:45:20.400 what happens when the ball's on the ground. So I'm 0:45:20.440 --> 0:45:26.960 a huge fan of ground contours having strategic value. And 0:45:27.400 --> 0:45:30.160 so I don't, you know, hard hard to say, you 0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:34.400 know how each one impacts those those overarching themes, but 0:45:34.480 --> 0:45:36.359 they all certainly contribute to it. 0:45:37.440 --> 0:45:42.120 So outside of say Mackenzie, if you could bring if 0:45:42.160 --> 0:45:45.799 you could bring one Golden Age architect back and have 0:45:46.040 --> 0:45:48.879 like kind of dinner with them and have them consult on, 0:45:49.120 --> 0:45:52.560 say your your next project, you do which one would 0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:53.080 you bring. 0:45:52.960 --> 0:45:59.080 Back a great question the cop out answer, but as 0:45:59.160 --> 0:46:01.600 actually probably accurate would be it would depend on what 0:46:01.680 --> 0:46:06.080 the project was. Yeah, there's probably a different answer depending 0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:09.960 on what the site was and what the who the 0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:12.600 client was, So it probably depends. And then you got 0:46:12.640 --> 0:46:15.600 to get into the question of if it's if it's 0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:18.520 just a dinner are you are you picking somebody based 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:22.760 on on personality and the stories that you're gonna be told, 0:46:22.920 --> 0:46:25.960 so you know, if you didn't have to pick up 0:46:25.960 --> 0:46:28.600 the bill, it might be killing half. Yeah, I was 0:46:28.680 --> 0:46:32.600 going to say, that's. 0:46:33.200 --> 0:46:37.920 A known, a known socialite, you know, interesting guy and 0:46:38.280 --> 0:46:42.560 uh a great architect. It's amazing to me with the 0:46:42.640 --> 0:46:46.680 us am at Riviera, how the I think the Philly 0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:51.839 the Philly Golf School and architecture, you know, for those 0:46:51.880 --> 0:46:54.800 that aren't aren't familiar with it, I have an article 0:46:54.800 --> 0:46:58.480 on my site, but this whole affiliate golf school is incredible. 0:46:58.560 --> 0:47:01.200 With George Thomas, A. W. 0:47:01.320 --> 0:47:05.560 Tilling, Hast, William Flynn, you know, then you have Hugh Wilson, 0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:08.800 Crump and all these guys. You look at their work 0:47:08.840 --> 0:47:13.359 and they've they've they've started because of you know, them 0:47:13.400 --> 0:47:17.600 getting their ass whooped in championship golf and championship amateur golf. 0:47:17.960 --> 0:47:21.920 And now you look back and they arguably have the 0:47:21.960 --> 0:47:26.359 majority of the timeless classic championship golf sites all came 0:47:26.400 --> 0:47:31.319 from that those three guys, there are five guys. 0:47:31.320 --> 0:47:36.480 Pretty awesome, Yeah, pretty awesome, no doubt about it. And 0:47:36.480 --> 0:47:41.520 and and to think back, you know, you know, talking 0:47:41.560 --> 0:47:45.880 to you know, spending a night talking to Walter Travis 0:47:46.120 --> 0:47:50.320 and and talking golf architecture and then talking about playing 0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:54.280 playing career. You know, so those those would be uh 0:47:54.680 --> 0:47:58.000 interesting conversations to have. Yeah, you know, all sorts of 0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:00.600 all sorts of great day. It would be awfully fun 0:48:00.640 --> 0:48:03.360 to go back in time and have a have a 0:48:03.440 --> 0:48:06.040 roundtable or like you say, have a good dinner. 0:48:06.280 --> 0:48:10.000 It's something I wondered because, like those guys like openly collaborated, 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:12.480 and I think a lot of it. You know, one 0:48:12.480 --> 0:48:15.000 of the things that's changed is that it wasn't as 0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:19.359 a business then as it is now. But that open collaboration, 0:48:19.719 --> 0:48:22.600 free flow of ideas led to such great work. 0:48:23.000 --> 0:48:25.720 And I ever wonder if that will happen again. 0:48:26.040 --> 0:48:28.839 I think it might be you know a little bit 0:48:28.920 --> 0:48:32.120 with you know how Core and Crenshaw with their all 0:48:32.160 --> 0:48:35.319 their associates, you know, spawning out and dope with his 0:48:35.400 --> 0:48:36.200 intern program. 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:37.600 But I always wonder, you. 0:48:37.560 --> 0:48:40.080 Know, do you do you ever have peers that you 0:48:40.160 --> 0:48:42.480 go to with, you know, asking. 0:48:42.280 --> 0:48:45.920 Him questions and bouncing ideas off of them. 0:48:46.000 --> 0:48:48.120 Yeah. I think that's a great point that you bring out. 0:48:48.239 --> 0:48:50.440 And I think to me, that's one of the exciting 0:48:50.560 --> 0:48:54.880 things about this time and history. You know, and we 0:48:55.200 --> 0:48:57.600 touched on earlier that we have a little bit of 0:48:57.600 --> 0:49:00.960 a dichotomy going on, and that there's a number of 0:49:01.120 --> 0:49:04.080 projects that you know, might be done for a housing 0:49:04.120 --> 0:49:08.480 development or fill hotel rooms and architecturally may not be 0:49:08.600 --> 0:49:10.640 very interesting, but then you've got a number of other 0:49:10.719 --> 0:49:15.760 projects that are very interesting and are on unique sites 0:49:15.840 --> 0:49:20.799 and sometimes very special pieces of land. And and you know, 0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:23.600 when you think about the architecture world, yeah, you've got 0:49:23.640 --> 0:49:30.040 an interesting range of people in the industry, different ages 0:49:30.160 --> 0:49:34.600 and different backgrounds and coming from different family trees, if 0:49:34.640 --> 0:49:38.040 you will, of architecture. And so yeah, I've been very 0:49:38.080 --> 0:49:42.799 fortunate to meet a number of different architects, old and young, 0:49:43.040 --> 0:49:47.960 and try to keep in touch and bounce ideas and 0:49:48.560 --> 0:49:52.880 have chatted with different people about collaborating and doing different things. 0:49:52.920 --> 0:49:55.960 And I think those are things that hopefully, I think 0:49:55.960 --> 0:49:58.880 there's been a little bit of that, and you touched 0:49:58.920 --> 0:50:02.880 on kind of the you know, whereas the collaboration in 0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:05.920 the early nineteen hundreds might have been the way we 0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:09.160 read about it now, you know, might. 0:50:09.040 --> 0:50:09.800 Have been these guys. 0:50:09.800 --> 0:50:13.520 But for anybody listening who hasn't been involved in a 0:50:13.520 --> 0:50:17.319 golf project, there is an endless amount of collaboration, you know, 0:50:17.400 --> 0:50:21.799 on every project, whether it's the guy whose name you 0:50:21.880 --> 0:50:27.359 read in the magazine, but there are people, you know, 0:50:27.480 --> 0:50:30.200 the people who are shaping the golf course are involved, 0:50:30.200 --> 0:50:35.239 and there's regular on site debates and conversations, and you know, 0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:37.719 a good idea can come from anywhere, whether it's the 0:50:39.239 --> 0:50:44.200 client or the guy digging the trench. You know, a 0:50:44.200 --> 0:50:47.680 good idea can come from everywhere anywhere. There is a 0:50:47.680 --> 0:50:49.920 lot of collaboration on every project. But I think you 0:50:50.000 --> 0:50:54.359 will probably see more, you know, they'll probably be one 0:50:54.400 --> 0:50:58.920 off projects, but you'll see more collaboration between people in 0:50:58.960 --> 0:51:02.799 the industry. And that's something that I'm uh, I like 0:51:02.880 --> 0:51:04.040 the idea of myself. 0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:07.239 Yeah, I think it's a it would be interesting to 0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:11.640 see if you did a modern day Pine Valley type 0:51:11.680 --> 0:51:15.160 project where you get five guys and you collaborate. Obviously 0:51:15.560 --> 0:51:18.920 there has to be one person that's the boss. But 0:51:19.360 --> 0:51:23.120 you know, yeah, you can't, you can't, and there has 0:51:23.160 --> 0:51:25.440 to be a unified vision. But like you know, the 0:51:25.480 --> 0:51:28.040 idea of like Pine Valley where like there, you know, 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:31.120 the Hell's half Acre Hole, for example, is is like 0:51:31.680 --> 0:51:36.920 notoriously a tilling Hals golf hole. And you know, you 0:51:36.960 --> 0:51:39.920 see different things in the same thing with Marion where 0:51:40.160 --> 0:51:42.600 there's so much flint in it that it could be 0:51:42.680 --> 0:51:47.160 considered a Flynn golf course. That you know, these these 0:51:47.400 --> 0:51:50.879 these golf courses became you know, they're the greatest golf 0:51:50.920 --> 0:51:53.480 courses in the world, but you know they were collaborated 0:51:53.560 --> 0:51:57.680 on and the spread of ideas. So I think we've 0:51:57.880 --> 0:51:59.920 we've talked about this pipe dream idea. 0:52:00.040 --> 0:52:00.600 I have enough. 0:52:02.640 --> 0:52:05.479 I'd love to talk a little bit about Chambers Bay, 0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:10.520 kind of your big project and you did it. You 0:52:10.520 --> 0:52:13.120 were the project architect on it during your time at 0:52:13.640 --> 0:52:17.920 rt J two, And it had the US Open, It's 0:52:17.960 --> 0:52:21.160 had the US AM. Most recently it had the Pacific 0:52:21.200 --> 0:52:26.000 Coast AM. I you know, from all accounts, I mean, 0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:29.160 it's just a beloved golf course by people that play it, 0:52:29.239 --> 0:52:32.360 and also the the players. 0:52:32.719 --> 0:52:34.760 You know, I'll rave about it. 0:52:34.680 --> 0:52:38.080 How you know, like and the only complaint always comes 0:52:38.120 --> 0:52:40.879 back to be, you know, the greens and the putting surfaces. 0:52:41.040 --> 0:52:43.600 How frustrating is it to have a course that is 0:52:43.760 --> 0:52:47.200 universally loved. But like the two things that you know, 0:52:47.280 --> 0:52:51.440 the US Open complained about was spectating and the green surfaces, 0:52:51.440 --> 0:52:53.760 which are really out of the architect's control. 0:52:56.760 --> 0:53:02.920 Yeah, lots two on there. I'll start by saying, just 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:06.960 talk about kind of being universally loved, and I think 0:53:07.040 --> 0:53:10.560 that to be to be fair, I guess I would 0:53:10.600 --> 0:53:13.400 I would say that it's probably not universally loved. I 0:53:13.440 --> 0:53:16.799 know a number of the players who competed in the 0:53:17.280 --> 0:53:22.319 Amateur in the Open either didn't like it or hated it, 0:53:22.440 --> 0:53:25.920 and that was okay. If you look back in history, 0:53:25.960 --> 0:53:31.520 I would imagine that most special golf courses are somewhat polarizing, 0:53:31.600 --> 0:53:34.720 particularly early on, And so that's okay. 0:53:34.960 --> 0:53:35.800 Well it's different. 0:53:36.080 --> 0:53:40.120 Also, you know, people always have like a reaction to. 0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:40.960 It being different. 0:53:41.000 --> 0:53:44.239 You know, there's with there's so much about angles and 0:53:44.360 --> 0:53:47.680 different ways you can play the course, so you know, naturally, 0:53:47.920 --> 0:53:51.240 like these guys play the same style golf course almost 0:53:51.480 --> 0:53:57.279 week out, narrow fairways, high rough, you know, is what 0:53:57.320 --> 0:54:01.080 I call robot golf, and Chambers definitely wasn't that style 0:54:01.120 --> 0:54:01.600 of golf. 0:54:03.200 --> 0:54:07.040 Absolutely and that was by design for me personally. When 0:54:07.080 --> 0:54:09.440 you think about championship golf. And again now we're just 0:54:09.520 --> 0:54:12.839 talking about the one percent, not everybody else, but but 0:54:13.360 --> 0:54:16.960 to me, championship golf is way way too much about 0:54:17.080 --> 0:54:23.120 execution and not enough about thought and strategy and uh 0:54:23.440 --> 0:54:27.360 and creativity. And so to your point, you know, weekend 0:54:27.400 --> 0:54:31.000 week out on the PGA Tour, it's you know, very 0:54:31.040 --> 0:54:34.520 little thinking is required. Right hit between the trees, hit 0:54:34.600 --> 0:54:40.279 it between the bunkers, you know, avoid the pond, and 0:54:40.440 --> 0:54:43.799 just not a lot of thinking. And so Chambers, Uh. 0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:46.920 You know, obviously at the municipal course, it's open to everybody, 0:54:46.960 --> 0:54:51.960 but there always was the desire and intention to to 0:54:52.160 --> 0:54:57.520 attract and host major championships. And one of the one 0:54:57.560 --> 0:54:59.560 of my great hopes for the project would be that 0:54:59.640 --> 0:55:05.520 the golf course would actually require golfers to think. And 0:55:05.880 --> 0:55:08.440 you know, to your point earlier about technology and how 0:55:08.480 --> 0:55:10.440 it's changed a little bit of the game in terms 0:55:10.440 --> 0:55:15.440 of shot making, you know, the goal at the Chambers 0:55:15.560 --> 0:55:19.160 was you know, through the ground countours to ask players 0:55:19.160 --> 0:55:21.600 to hit the ball high and hit it low, and 0:55:22.840 --> 0:55:25.000 you know, move the ball left to right, and move 0:55:25.040 --> 0:55:28.320 it right to left, and so, you know, the greatest 0:55:28.440 --> 0:55:32.279 joy I took out of both of those championships was 0:55:32.320 --> 0:55:34.520 to watch the best players in the game stand in 0:55:34.560 --> 0:55:37.400 the middle of the fairway and talk to their caddy 0:55:38.000 --> 0:55:40.440 and try to figure out how best to get the 0:55:40.480 --> 0:55:43.480 ball close to the hole, knowing that they had four 0:55:43.560 --> 0:55:47.440 or five different ways to do it, but if they 0:55:47.480 --> 0:55:50.000 were smart enough, they could actually figure out that one 0:55:50.239 --> 0:55:53.440 was would serve them far better than the others. So 0:55:54.040 --> 0:55:57.240 for me, you know, in twenty ten, watching Peter Euline 0:55:57.320 --> 0:56:00.640 stand in the fairway and talk to those caddy about, yeah, 0:56:00.640 --> 0:56:03.120 I'm two hundred yards out, but do I want to 0:56:03.160 --> 0:56:06.320 fly at one eighty with a draw into that slope 0:56:06.840 --> 0:56:09.279 and let it release, or do I want to fly 0:56:09.360 --> 0:56:13.480 a one ninety and hit it high and landed at 0:56:13.480 --> 0:56:16.080 the toe of that slope with with a faide to 0:56:16.200 --> 0:56:18.960 try and hold it. Those were the things that made me, 0:56:19.440 --> 0:56:24.640 uh most excited. So from that standpoint, yeah, absolutely, I 0:56:24.640 --> 0:56:26.640 think you know, I was thrilled to death with how 0:56:26.680 --> 0:56:32.200 the amateur and the Open unfolded, you know, the the 0:56:32.320 --> 0:56:35.840 unfortunate thing about the Open in particular, and you know, 0:56:36.719 --> 0:56:40.719 the first year of Fox and their coverage and and 0:56:41.480 --> 0:56:46.000 unfortunately one of the storylines became the dreams and obviously 0:56:46.040 --> 0:56:50.040 the the issues with some of the poland that had 0:56:50.040 --> 0:56:53.799 popped up, and and and it was it was very 0:56:53.840 --> 0:56:56.640 sad because you know, the people who pour their heart 0:56:56.680 --> 0:57:01.080 and soul into maintaining the golf course are friends of 0:57:01.120 --> 0:57:05.960 mine and very very talented people, and and and they 0:57:06.000 --> 0:57:08.799 know what they're doing. And there was just kind of 0:57:08.840 --> 0:57:13.440 a big confluence of whether it was weather or championship 0:57:13.480 --> 0:57:15.920 prep or all these different things kind of kind of 0:57:16.000 --> 0:57:18.400 led to something and then it became a big storyline 0:57:18.400 --> 0:57:20.680 that took away from so many of the other great 0:57:20.720 --> 0:57:22.680 things about the event, so that that was really the 0:57:22.720 --> 0:57:26.840 only negative. But I think over the long haul, those 0:57:26.840 --> 0:57:30.280 things will get worked out and everything will everything will 0:57:30.640 --> 0:57:32.760 will be fine in the future. And when we first 0:57:32.760 --> 0:57:35.680 built the project, we were first getting started building it. You know, 0:57:35.760 --> 0:57:39.320 John Landenberg, who was the county executive and the project 0:57:39.440 --> 0:57:42.280 vision area, he made it clear in the very first 0:57:42.320 --> 0:57:44.600 meeting that you know, this is one hundred year project. 0:57:44.680 --> 0:57:47.440 We're creating something here that's going to be here for 0:57:47.800 --> 0:57:52.439 multiple generations, and our goal is to get it right 0:57:52.520 --> 0:57:55.400 for them and to take the long view and to 0:57:56.360 --> 0:57:58.680 do everything in our power to make sure that you know, 0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:03.360 future generation have a place to enjoy. And you know, 0:58:03.440 --> 0:58:06.520 that's you know, from a non championship golf standpoint, that's 0:58:07.000 --> 0:58:09.760 what makes Chambers Base so special is that every day 0:58:10.360 --> 0:58:12.960 there are hundreds, if not thousands of people that go 0:58:13.040 --> 0:58:16.640 walk that public trail that is above and weeds through 0:58:16.680 --> 0:58:21.320 the golf course. There's you know, golfers that are our locals, 0:58:21.400 --> 0:58:23.960 and it's attracted golfers from all over the country and 0:58:24.000 --> 0:58:27.200 all over the world, but have a different you know, 0:58:27.600 --> 0:58:30.200 had never heard of Pierce County, Washington before, and now 0:58:30.240 --> 0:58:33.200 all of a sudden they come, and when they come, 0:58:33.240 --> 0:58:36.000 they stay and they spend money and support local businesses 0:58:36.040 --> 0:58:39.400 and things like that. So a lot to be excited 0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:39.919 about there. 0:58:40.240 --> 0:58:42.640 Yeah, I think that's something that always gets lost, is 0:58:42.720 --> 0:58:45.720 like Chambers Bay is so young and its life is 0:58:45.760 --> 0:58:49.720 a golf course. And do you think about like especially 0:58:49.840 --> 0:58:55.320 like Marion. I mean, Marion continued to undergo iterations and 0:58:55.440 --> 0:58:59.960 changes from their first USM they hosted through all the way. 0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:02.280 I think it was nineteen sixteen they had their first 0:59:02.400 --> 0:59:05.360 US Am and then you know, the golf course really 0:59:05.400 --> 0:59:08.960 wasn't complete until nineteen thirty four, and in the meantime 0:59:09.000 --> 0:59:13.040 they'd hosted six or seven championships during that time, So 0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:18.120 you know, the idea of like, you know, a small 0:59:18.240 --> 0:59:21.160 change here and there. I mean, the golf course yielded 0:59:21.280 --> 0:59:25.120 probably the most exciting US Open in the last decade, 0:59:25.640 --> 0:59:30.880 and I think it gets lost especially with the US 0:59:30.920 --> 0:59:35.120 Open mentality of the necessity of thick rough and seeing 0:59:35.120 --> 0:59:37.960 guys hack it out. Like the most interesting golf is 0:59:38.000 --> 0:59:40.720 exactly what you hit on with Peter Eulin talking about 0:59:40.720 --> 0:59:43.200 it is when you can put doubt and you can 0:59:43.240 --> 0:59:46.680 put you know, you have to for you're forcing the 0:59:46.720 --> 0:59:49.440 greatest players in the world to think about the type 0:59:49.440 --> 0:59:52.560 of shot they're playing in. There is just the best 0:59:52.680 --> 0:59:56.080 kind of golf where you start to see the shot 0:59:56.120 --> 0:59:58.880 making come to the forefront and you see the best 0:59:59.160 --> 1:00:03.040 players in the world having to hit different styles of 1:00:03.080 --> 1:00:05.560 golf shots that you don't see week in week out. 1:00:07.680 --> 1:00:10.840 Yeah, to my point, those were the things we're excited about. 1:00:10.880 --> 1:00:14.040 I mean, there's so many great takeaways. I mean, you 1:00:14.080 --> 1:00:17.880 think about it, you know, from a from a support standpoint, 1:00:18.280 --> 1:00:21.640 when when the Open was at Chambers, well, when the 1:00:21.680 --> 1:00:24.800 Amateur was at Chambers, my understanding everything I've been told 1:00:24.960 --> 1:00:28.080 is that they had you know, some of the best 1:00:28.480 --> 1:00:31.520 crowds ever and some of the best volunteer sign up 1:00:31.560 --> 1:00:36.480 ever for an amateur. For the Open, the volunteer you 1:00:36.520 --> 1:00:40.760 know sign up was their quickest ever fill up. They 1:00:40.920 --> 1:00:44.720 sold more merchandise than they'd ever sold before or in 1:00:45.160 --> 1:00:48.480 in you know, many a decade or whatever. You know, 1:00:48.960 --> 1:00:51.560 it did well on TV. And then from a pure 1:00:52.640 --> 1:00:54.720 playing standpoint, you think about the amateur, you had the 1:00:54.800 --> 1:00:56.800 number one amter in the world beat the number two 1:00:56.840 --> 1:01:01.080 ameter in the world at the time for your finale. 1:01:01.800 --> 1:01:04.800 When you think about the Open, the number one, you know, 1:01:04.840 --> 1:01:08.360 the best player in the world at the time. One championship. 1:01:09.080 --> 1:01:12.880 The leader board, if you look look back, was probably 1:01:12.880 --> 1:01:16.600 the best leader board you've had in twenty five years. 1:01:16.640 --> 1:01:21.320 And certainly the back nine and the Sunday had you know, 1:01:21.440 --> 1:01:24.800 probably the best leader boards of anything in the lands 1:01:25.680 --> 1:01:28.640 twenty five years. So there's a lot of things to 1:01:28.720 --> 1:01:34.520 be excited about and positive takeaways, and clearly there were 1:01:34.560 --> 1:01:38.920 things that you'd like to refine and do over you know, 1:01:38.960 --> 1:01:42.360 I think from a spectator standpoint, I was there all week, 1:01:42.400 --> 1:01:46.400 and you know, the USGA did a great job leading 1:01:46.520 --> 1:01:50.680 up to the event about sharing with the public that 1:01:50.760 --> 1:01:52.960 this was a little bit different of the US Open 1:01:53.040 --> 1:01:55.520 and that the venue was such that you'd be far 1:01:55.640 --> 1:01:59.120 better served to go to a grand stand and watch 1:01:59.200 --> 1:02:02.320 two or three home from a grand stand as opposed 1:02:02.320 --> 1:02:05.200 to trying to follow a group, you know, for all 1:02:05.240 --> 1:02:09.600 eighteen holes. And that was that was the good part. 1:02:09.680 --> 1:02:12.000 The bad part was the public listened to them, and 1:02:13.200 --> 1:02:15.560 the public went to the grand stands, and by nine 1:02:16.240 --> 1:02:19.240 o'clock all the grand stands were full. So then you 1:02:19.920 --> 1:02:21.560 then all of a sudden you had a bunch of 1:02:22.440 --> 1:02:25.440 traffic challenges with people walking around. But that's something that 1:02:25.480 --> 1:02:29.160 you can learn from. You can you can modify a 1:02:29.240 --> 1:02:32.200 roping plan. You can add more grand stands, you know, 1:02:32.280 --> 1:02:35.600 those are those are things that could be worked around. So, 1:02:36.800 --> 1:02:40.920 you know, it was it certainly was for me, you know, 1:02:41.360 --> 1:02:44.720 as a young guy, you know who who loves links golf, 1:02:44.800 --> 1:02:50.400 who loves municipal golf, who loves championship golf, whose dream 1:02:50.440 --> 1:02:52.720 in high school was to design a US Open golf 1:02:52.720 --> 1:02:54.640 course to be able to be part of that, and 1:02:54.800 --> 1:03:00.880 watch it from the first first day on site, interviewing, 1:03:00.960 --> 1:03:02.520 trying to get the job, and to go all the 1:03:02.520 --> 1:03:05.640 way through building the golf course and then having an 1:03:05.640 --> 1:03:08.000 open announcement. Then watch it go all the way through. 1:03:08.000 --> 1:03:09.960 It's been a pretty interesting journey. 1:03:10.760 --> 1:03:13.120 Yeah, it's it's got to be really cool. 1:03:13.320 --> 1:03:18.040 I I envy the ability for you guys to just 1:03:18.160 --> 1:03:20.640 kind of watch your pro you know, have your name 1:03:20.720 --> 1:03:23.880 on something and watch it and watch people's reactions and 1:03:23.920 --> 1:03:27.200 then you know, to get to see the whole world reacted. 1:03:27.360 --> 1:03:31.040 I mean, it's it's got to be pretty cool. I 1:03:31.080 --> 1:03:33.280 wanted to get to We've got a lot of reader 1:03:33.520 --> 1:03:37.240 and our listener questions from Twitter, and I wanted to 1:03:37.240 --> 1:03:37.600 get to. 1:03:37.600 --> 1:03:38.080 Some of those. 1:03:39.160 --> 1:03:42.040 Just I'm not sure if you've ever listened to a pod, 1:03:42.080 --> 1:03:46.560 but we have an overrated underrated segment. So they'll be 1:03:46.600 --> 1:03:49.240 peppered in there and you just you know, you can 1:03:49.360 --> 1:03:50.480 feel free to expand. 1:03:50.520 --> 1:03:52.200 But you know, the general. 1:03:53.640 --> 1:03:56.400 Consist it just say, you know, overrated or underrated on 1:03:56.480 --> 1:04:00.400 different topics, so those will be sprinkled in here. We'll 1:04:00.440 --> 1:04:05.600 start out with a overrated underrated from Barry Elevated Greens 1:04:05.600 --> 1:04:06.400 in False. 1:04:06.080 --> 1:04:17.080 Fronts, Uh, are those two separate things. Yeah, underrated? I 1:04:17.160 --> 1:04:19.840 like I like a good false front, particularly on an 1:04:19.880 --> 1:04:20.439 uphill hole. 1:04:21.120 --> 1:04:21.280 Uh. 1:04:22.280 --> 1:04:27.560 Elevated greens, I'll go overrated. You know, I love golf 1:04:27.640 --> 1:04:32.800 where the ground game is an option, and so if 1:04:32.800 --> 1:04:36.960 you've got a green that's more at grade, the aerial 1:04:37.000 --> 1:04:40.919 option is still always there, but but the ground game 1:04:41.040 --> 1:04:44.160 is something that I just I just love. So elevated 1:04:44.160 --> 1:04:47.640 greens have their place, but I'm balanced, I have to say, uh. 1:04:47.480 --> 1:04:48.600 Overrated, mm hmm. 1:04:48.800 --> 1:04:51.240 I feel like that's an easy way to make a 1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:54.440 lot of golf courses more playable is just to lessen 1:04:54.480 --> 1:04:56.960 the grade of that front of the green that because 1:04:57.000 --> 1:05:00.600 then you know, more people can run the ball into them. 1:05:01.440 --> 1:05:05.520 Absolutely so again, go look at most golf courses between 1:05:05.600 --> 1:05:08.880 nineteen sixty and ninety five, and almost all of them 1:05:08.880 --> 1:05:11.320 the green is two to three feet above the elevations 1:05:11.360 --> 1:05:14.800 the fruway. It just it just makes life so difficult 1:05:14.880 --> 1:05:19.560 for mid to high handicappers who golf is difficult enough 1:05:19.600 --> 1:05:23.800 for that group, takes so much fun and strategy out 1:05:23.800 --> 1:05:24.680 of it. 1:05:24.680 --> 1:05:28.040 It has zero effect on the one percent or the 1:05:28.080 --> 1:05:30.440 ten percent we always we've been talking about. 1:05:31.720 --> 1:05:35.000 Well, in some respects it actually makes it easier for 1:05:35.080 --> 1:05:38.040 him because I know they're just grabbing whatever club is 1:05:38.080 --> 1:05:40.520 going to fly to the middle of the green. You know, 1:05:41.080 --> 1:05:42.720 I don't know about you, but for me, if I 1:05:42.760 --> 1:05:46.400 see an open entrance green, I start thinking about running 1:05:46.440 --> 1:05:48.440 it in, even if I'm in a you know, if 1:05:48.440 --> 1:05:50.840 I'm back in the Midwest and the conditions aren't firm 1:05:50.880 --> 1:05:55.800 and fast, if it's playing soft, even if it's playing 1:05:55.920 --> 1:05:58.800 soft and there's an open entrance, just my eye and 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:02.400 my tendency to like ball on the ground gets me 1:06:02.520 --> 1:06:04.520 thinking about going on the ground, even if it's not 1:06:04.600 --> 1:06:08.760 the right play due to conditions. So uh, in some respects, 1:06:08.840 --> 1:06:11.320 the little alvy of green might make life easier for 1:06:11.640 --> 1:06:12.640 the low handed gapper. 1:06:13.680 --> 1:06:18.880 Yeah, especially I think also especially around the green, because 1:06:19.080 --> 1:06:23.400 you know, you the lob wedge has become such a 1:06:23.440 --> 1:06:26.919 weapon for shots around the green. And when it's when 1:06:26.920 --> 1:06:29.320 it's perched up, you don't even think about You just 1:06:29.360 --> 1:06:31.240 grab the lob weedge and you hit the shot. But 1:06:31.560 --> 1:06:33.320 when it's when it's flat, you all of a sudden 1:06:33.360 --> 1:06:36.400 your mind starts to race and you start thinking about 1:06:36.400 --> 1:06:37.440 different things. 1:06:37.160 --> 1:06:37.680 You could do. 1:06:37.680 --> 1:06:40.160 Do I land this, you know five feet short, and 1:06:40.360 --> 1:06:42.680 you know kind of hit a little checker. You know, 1:06:42.800 --> 1:06:45.840 they are all kinds of things. It's just more options 1:06:45.960 --> 1:06:49.360 are good. I think people just are tired of hearing 1:06:49.400 --> 1:06:55.720 me say that. But Barry also had another question that is, 1:06:56.240 --> 1:06:57.960 I think a really good one. He's a he's a 1:06:58.040 --> 1:07:02.400 Hawaii guy, so he's he's very interested in wind and 1:07:02.440 --> 1:07:06.680 how it plays a factor in design. You know, the 1:07:06.680 --> 1:07:11.320 prevailing trade winds affects all courses in Hawaii. But then uh, 1:07:11.960 --> 1:07:16.080 linksy options aren't always provided for the most part. I mean, 1:07:16.120 --> 1:07:18.479 there's a lot of frustrate elevated greens that are tough 1:07:18.480 --> 1:07:19.720 to access. 1:07:19.440 --> 1:07:24.800 With only one shot option. How do you approach prevailing winds? 1:07:26.240 --> 1:07:29.680 So that's that's a great question. And uh and wind 1:07:29.800 --> 1:07:33.479 really is It's one of the wonderful elements of the game. 1:07:34.760 --> 1:07:37.560 I think it's it's very hard to paint with a 1:07:37.600 --> 1:07:41.480 broad brush. Again, when it comes to golf and golf courses, 1:07:41.520 --> 1:07:46.880 everything is site specific. So you know, for example, if 1:07:46.920 --> 1:07:50.640 you're in Hawaii or in a windy place and you're 1:07:50.640 --> 1:07:53.720 building a new golf course and you have a lot 1:07:53.760 --> 1:07:58.880 of room, then the then the prevailing wind can impact 1:07:59.520 --> 1:08:02.160 your actual routing of the golf course and how you 1:08:02.280 --> 1:08:07.400 lay out the holes. Oftentimes that's not the case. You 1:08:07.480 --> 1:08:11.240 might have a parcel that's not as big, and where 1:08:11.320 --> 1:08:14.400 you route the holes is more a byproduct of the 1:08:14.440 --> 1:08:16.680 amount of space that you have, right, and you need 1:08:16.760 --> 1:08:20.600 to you need to fit them in, uh, fit the 1:08:20.640 --> 1:08:24.240 puzzle pieces in. But then you start to think about 1:08:24.280 --> 1:08:28.200 the wind on a on the individual design of the hole, 1:08:28.479 --> 1:08:32.200 if you will, uh, right, and and maybe where hazards 1:08:32.200 --> 1:08:35.519 are placed. Or to our discussion earlier, whether or not 1:08:35.600 --> 1:08:39.280 the green is open entrance in at grade or or 1:08:39.320 --> 1:08:43.400 elevated or not so. Uh, it's all very very site specific. 1:08:43.920 --> 1:08:47.760 If you do, if you're fortunate enough to have an 1:08:47.840 --> 1:08:51.400 open site in a windy area and and uh you know, 1:08:51.400 --> 1:08:55.160 if you have the triple whammy of having a sandy soil, uh, 1:08:55.360 --> 1:08:58.080 then the then the prevailing wind can can play an 1:08:58.080 --> 1:09:02.160 even bigger role. And and actually laying out the course otherwise, 1:09:02.200 --> 1:09:04.840 if you don't have all those luxuries are probably is 1:09:05.479 --> 1:09:08.200 a bigger impact on the detailed design of the wholes 1:09:08.200 --> 1:09:09.080 and the features. 1:09:10.000 --> 1:09:11.879 That's a that's a great answer. 1:09:14.040 --> 1:09:18.719 Here's some with you being a Wisconsin native, We've got 1:09:18.720 --> 1:09:21.760 some uh, you know, questions about the Badger state. 1:09:23.000 --> 1:09:25.599 Two weeks, two weeks from the day, two years from 1:09:25.640 --> 1:09:27.520 to day two weeks. 1:09:29.600 --> 1:09:34.160 So with the Brent Wagner wants to know what course 1:09:34.200 --> 1:09:38.240 in Wisconsin would you most want to restore or redesign. 1:09:40.760 --> 1:09:48.320 Uh, well, yeah, that's a great question. So in terms 1:09:48.320 --> 1:09:51.200 of redesign, that's probably not politically correct. 1:09:51.439 --> 1:09:53.160 Yeah, we'll save restore. 1:09:54.360 --> 1:09:55.200 We'll say restore. 1:09:55.320 --> 1:09:58.040 So there's there's some there's some neat ones out there, 1:09:58.160 --> 1:10:01.760 you know. Uh, there's probably a couple in Milwaukee that 1:10:01.880 --> 1:10:05.160 probably a couple of private clubs in Milwaukee that probably 1:10:05.200 --> 1:10:10.200 would uh fit that bill. There's there's some underrated uh 1:10:10.560 --> 1:10:15.080 kind of hidden gym golf courses uh uh that that 1:10:15.160 --> 1:10:18.200 are kind of neat. I our family spend a little 1:10:18.200 --> 1:10:21.639 bit of time up north. There's a nine hole club, 1:10:21.720 --> 1:10:25.240 Ryan Lander Country Club that's pretty neat. Uh. I think 1:10:26.360 --> 1:10:29.080 I haven't played there in forever. But there's a course 1:10:29.120 --> 1:10:31.680 in the southeast that's uh, I think kind of more 1:10:31.720 --> 1:10:35.920 of a mompo operation. Spring Valley that's oh yeah, got 1:10:36.040 --> 1:10:38.320 got some pretty cool stuff going on that would be 1:10:38.320 --> 1:10:42.000 great to peel back the layers and expose some of 1:10:42.000 --> 1:10:47.240 that stuff. There's yeah, yeah, and uh, you know, so 1:10:47.280 --> 1:10:50.559 it's a great time of golf in Wisconsin. Wisconsin's becoming 1:10:50.640 --> 1:10:55.080 a hotbed for golf. So I'd love the opportunity to 1:10:54.600 --> 1:10:57.200 to get back and do some stuff there. I was 1:10:57.240 --> 1:11:02.920 fortunate enough we did a Readers of Century World that 1:11:03.120 --> 1:11:06.840 was very, very satisfying and great client and very proud 1:11:06.840 --> 1:11:09.680 of what we've done up there. But yeah, I love 1:11:09.720 --> 1:11:12.439 the opportunity to get back and uh and work in 1:11:12.479 --> 1:11:13.160 the Bedro state. 1:11:13.640 --> 1:11:17.920 Yeah, I'd love to. I think there's an Ozaki Country 1:11:17.920 --> 1:11:21.160 Club could be so so, so good if they they 1:11:21.200 --> 1:11:23.880 got rid of some trees, and I mean that place 1:11:23.920 --> 1:11:26.080 has some some really cool features. 1:11:27.400 --> 1:11:29.160 Absolutely and at it. 1:11:29.520 --> 1:11:31.560 Have you have you ever played Eagle Springs. 1:11:33.439 --> 1:11:35.120 Eagle Springs, I don't know that I have. 1:11:35.479 --> 1:11:38.799 Oh man, you got to get Well, it's the oldest 1:11:38.800 --> 1:11:39.800 course in Wisconsin. 1:11:40.400 --> 1:11:42.680 And where where exactly it's in? 1:11:43.200 --> 1:11:46.720 I want to say it's relatively close to two. 1:11:47.360 --> 1:11:51.120 I played it years ago. Let me see where it is. 1:11:52.200 --> 1:11:57.599 Uh, it's in but it's got some just unbelievable green 1:11:57.640 --> 1:12:01.080 complexes and it's you know, it's the oldest course in Wisconsin. 1:12:01.920 --> 1:12:07.320 It's in Eagle, Wisconsin. So in let's see what is it. 1:12:07.320 --> 1:12:07.680 It's in. 1:12:09.320 --> 1:12:11.000 Waukesha, I think county. 1:12:11.560 --> 1:12:14.799 Oh okay, yeah, so it's Milwaukee suburbs. 1:12:15.120 --> 1:12:19.880 Yeah, yeah, but nine whole course. And I mean, just 1:12:20.000 --> 1:12:23.519 if they've got this great volcano green and just some 1:12:23.760 --> 1:12:27.519 unbelievable dream complexes, It's like that place could be really 1:12:27.600 --> 1:12:31.439 really good and you know, you could go play there 1:12:31.479 --> 1:12:35.760 for I think it's like fifteen bucks in Walk let's see, 1:12:36.160 --> 1:12:39.760 and it's a great little course. It's yeah, it's a 1:12:40.880 --> 1:12:45.400 summer weekend rate is walking is eighteen seventy five, So 1:12:46.320 --> 1:12:47.360 very nice, pretty good. 1:12:47.600 --> 1:12:50.400 So yeah, I mean Wisconsin's Wisconsin's getting a lot of 1:12:50.439 --> 1:12:56.280 puk for all the big, fancy, fancy places, but yeah, 1:12:56.320 --> 1:12:58.880 restoring some of the smaller gems would be a good 1:12:58.880 --> 1:12:59.280 thing too. 1:13:01.000 --> 1:13:02.120 I like this question. 1:13:02.600 --> 1:13:05.000 H HPS asked it for every pod. 1:13:05.080 --> 1:13:07.240 We don't get to it on every Architecture pod. 1:13:07.680 --> 1:13:10.479 But if you're playing, if you could play one place 1:13:10.520 --> 1:13:13.880 on a Sunday afternoon with a Sunday bag, what what 1:13:14.040 --> 1:13:15.160 course are you going to play? 1:13:16.960 --> 1:13:22.320 Yeah, that's a that's a tough one. There's there's so 1:13:22.439 --> 1:13:24.479 many to choose from. 1:13:24.800 --> 1:13:25.000 You know. 1:13:27.000 --> 1:13:29.919 I've been lucky enough to go out to Prairie Dunes 1:13:30.160 --> 1:13:32.840 a few times, and that's a that's a place. I 1:13:32.840 --> 1:13:35.200 would love to be out there with a Sunday bag 1:13:35.479 --> 1:13:38.799 on a Sunday afternoon. That's pretty that's a pretty special place. 1:13:40.479 --> 1:13:46.559 But you know, I mean, uh the uh yeah, I'll 1:13:46.640 --> 1:13:48.680 just I'll stick with prairie dunes. But just know that 1:13:48.720 --> 1:13:51.000 there's a dozen enough of them. That's Are you know 1:13:51.400 --> 1:13:54.719 anything that's a good a good easy walk that has 1:13:55.080 --> 1:13:58.759 excitement and strategy and interest on a happy camper. 1:13:59.120 --> 1:14:03.120 Mm yeah, there's that's a tough question. I mean there, 1:14:03.200 --> 1:14:06.800 I don't think there's a wrong answer if you I 1:14:06.800 --> 1:14:09.880 mean anywhere. It's pretty nice to do that, especially if 1:14:09.920 --> 1:14:10.840 there's nobody around. 1:14:10.880 --> 1:14:14.639 You can play well if there's nobody around. I don't 1:14:14.640 --> 1:14:16.599 know if you're like me, if you're out there by yourself, 1:14:16.680 --> 1:14:20.200 ill you know you're playing. I'll hit a shot, you know, 1:14:20.200 --> 1:14:22.000 you'll hit your approach shut into a green if you 1:14:22.000 --> 1:14:23.479 don't like how you hit the first one, and you 1:14:23.560 --> 1:14:25.519 drop another one and hit another one, and then you 1:14:25.520 --> 1:14:27.680 get up to the green. And once you get up 1:14:27.720 --> 1:14:29.599 to the green, then you may or may not, you know, 1:14:29.680 --> 1:14:31.559 putt the ball you originally hit. But you must just 1:14:31.600 --> 1:14:35.200 start seeing different shots to get hit and drop five 1:14:35.280 --> 1:14:37.600 or six balls around the green. If you're going to 1:14:37.680 --> 1:14:41.559 do that, then I'll then I'll stick with play dunes 1:14:41.640 --> 1:14:44.000 is a fun place to tip and putt. 1:14:44.479 --> 1:14:46.680 Yeah, That's one of my favorite things to do when 1:14:46.720 --> 1:14:49.439 I play by myself is I just throw five balls 1:14:49.439 --> 1:14:51.680 into different spots around the green and try and get 1:14:51.680 --> 1:14:52.719 all five up and down. 1:14:52.800 --> 1:14:55.640 It's it's it's a fun way. I recommend it. It's 1:14:55.720 --> 1:14:58.920 great practice too, all right. 1:14:59.360 --> 1:15:03.960 So Katie w wants to know what's the best way 1:15:04.040 --> 1:15:07.160 for an individual to begin getting into architecture. 1:15:09.640 --> 1:15:12.599 Uh, well, I'm sure you've probably touched on this in 1:15:12.640 --> 1:15:16.240 the past. I think there's you know, lots of different 1:15:16.320 --> 1:15:21.280 routes again, tiny industry and uh and small one to 1:15:21.280 --> 1:15:23.960 get into it. But there's a number of good books 1:15:23.960 --> 1:15:26.760 to read. Uh. And then if you're if you're really 1:15:26.800 --> 1:15:31.000 serious about making it a career, I would encourage people 1:15:31.040 --> 1:15:35.360 to get involved in golf construction and golf course maintenance. 1:15:35.760 --> 1:15:39.960 I think both of those things are critical elements to 1:15:40.000 --> 1:15:43.559 have an understanding of and and the exposure of those 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:49.439 opportunities will be invaluable. So, uh, you know, getting involved 1:15:49.439 --> 1:15:52.120 in golf course maintenance, getting involved in golf construction, and 1:15:52.160 --> 1:15:56.400 then you know there's there's a number of great books 1:15:56.400 --> 1:15:59.880 on the subject that I'm sure that you probably have 1:15:59.880 --> 1:16:01.839 a listed on your website somewhere. 1:16:02.240 --> 1:16:06.080 It's funny, I did a books article over the winter 1:16:06.400 --> 1:16:07.679 and I put a ton in there. 1:16:07.680 --> 1:16:10.120 But it's the most asked question I get. 1:16:10.160 --> 1:16:13.200 I get a couple of emails a week and I 1:16:13.240 --> 1:16:15.320 need to just write them down into a post because 1:16:15.360 --> 1:16:17.400 what I end up doing is I end up applying 1:16:17.760 --> 1:16:20.240 the same way to all these questions, and it's like, God, 1:16:20.280 --> 1:16:23.240 why don't I just have like a post on the 1:16:23.320 --> 1:16:26.760 site that's like linked right by where somebody the contact 1:16:26.840 --> 1:16:27.519 us page. 1:16:27.840 --> 1:16:31.120 So there's something I need to do, you know. 1:16:31.240 --> 1:16:35.400 I think that the thing for people, you know, there's 1:16:35.960 --> 1:16:38.720 you know, every year anytime, you know, I'm on a 1:16:38.760 --> 1:16:40.680 plane and somebody asked me what you do, and you know, 1:16:41.000 --> 1:16:42.920 oh my god, that's the coolest job in the world. 1:16:42.960 --> 1:16:44.880 I want to do that, you know, And then you 1:16:44.920 --> 1:16:47.519 get others to say, you know, I think the key 1:16:47.560 --> 1:16:50.479 thing for people is to really for young people who 1:16:50.520 --> 1:16:53.439 are interested in golf architecture and want to make a 1:16:53.600 --> 1:16:57.120 career out of it, is to really think long and 1:16:57.200 --> 1:17:00.720 hard to yourself about what do you want out of 1:17:01.080 --> 1:17:04.680 that career? Are you looking for fame and fortune and 1:17:04.800 --> 1:17:08.040 to be you know, do you read magazines and see 1:17:08.560 --> 1:17:11.360 magazine interviews or people on TV and you want to 1:17:11.360 --> 1:17:15.760 be that person? Or do you want to be a 1:17:15.800 --> 1:17:18.759 part of a team that builds golf courses? Right, because 1:17:18.800 --> 1:17:26.120 there's a number of opportunities for people who want to 1:17:26.160 --> 1:17:29.559 be a part of a team to build and maintain 1:17:29.680 --> 1:17:33.559 golf courses. But you may never you know, be on 1:17:33.640 --> 1:17:39.200 a magazine cover or on TV. And what you think 1:17:39.240 --> 1:17:42.040 you might want when you're eighteen might be drastically different 1:17:42.040 --> 1:17:45.080 than what you realize you wanted when you're forty. But 1:17:46.360 --> 1:17:49.960 you know, it's certainly you know, like I said earlier, 1:17:49.960 --> 1:17:52.000 I pinch myself every day that I get to peak, 1:17:53.040 --> 1:17:54.479 get to be part of it, and get to be 1:17:54.520 --> 1:17:58.160 involved in this. And I think there's anybody who's ever 1:17:58.200 --> 1:18:01.559 been involved in building a golf course, I think would 1:18:01.600 --> 1:18:04.960 say that it's it's a magical process and and and 1:18:05.080 --> 1:18:06.240 one that's very rewarding. 1:18:06.640 --> 1:18:10.960 M Yeah, I think it's a lot less glamorous than 1:18:11.120 --> 1:18:13.519 people think, especially at the start of your career. 1:18:16.760 --> 1:18:20.760 Yeah, you know, I think, uh again, if you're if 1:18:20.800 --> 1:18:25.000 you're looking for fame and fortunate, uh, probably not. You know, 1:18:25.680 --> 1:18:28.200 probably better off to go get that business degree and 1:18:28.240 --> 1:18:32.559 go go make your money somewhere else. But uh, if 1:18:33.080 --> 1:18:36.160 if you want to wake up every day and know 1:18:36.280 --> 1:18:41.080 that you're going to get to interact with interesting, passionate people, 1:18:41.120 --> 1:18:44.839 and you get to be a part of uh being 1:18:45.360 --> 1:18:47.800 doing something creative, and you're going to get to build 1:18:47.840 --> 1:18:51.639 something that's going to last for decades and decades where uh, 1:18:51.680 --> 1:18:55.120 where generations of people are going to go make memories 1:18:55.120 --> 1:18:59.400 with their family and friends. Uh, then then uh, then 1:18:59.400 --> 1:19:00.759 it certainly worthy pursuit. 1:19:01.600 --> 1:19:09.200 Mm So what GA Golf Architecture Texas wants to know 1:19:09.960 --> 1:19:13.639 least favorite trend in modern golf course architecture. 1:19:16.320 --> 1:19:20.599 Long listed? Choose from. I don't know the trends. I'll 1:19:20.640 --> 1:19:26.680 just say the the overarching umbrella for me is artificial elements, 1:19:26.720 --> 1:19:30.240 whether it's a man made lake or artificial mounding, or 1:19:31.080 --> 1:19:37.320 concrete cart paths, or flower beds or planted trees, all 1:19:37.360 --> 1:19:41.160 of these things. You know, again we talked earlier about 1:19:41.240 --> 1:19:45.559 kind of making golf unsustainable. All of these things, in 1:19:45.600 --> 1:19:49.800 my mind tracked from golf rather than add to it. 1:19:51.040 --> 1:19:53.920 I would agree with almost all that I think. 1:19:55.920 --> 1:19:58.400 I hate Roff. I'm on a mission, personal mission to 1:19:58.400 --> 1:20:01.120 eliminate rough from the game ago. I'd be happy to 1:20:01.120 --> 1:20:05.160 eliminate par te blocks. We get rid of t blocks 1:20:05.160 --> 1:20:08.080 while we're at it, all sorts of stuff to give rid. 1:20:07.960 --> 1:20:11.040 Of around the greens. Rough. 1:20:11.200 --> 1:20:15.640 All it does is it diminishes skill and brings you know, 1:20:15.760 --> 1:20:21.520 the great short games closer to the bad short games. 1:20:22.680 --> 1:20:27.040 Yeah, certainly. Take You know, when I spent the last 1:20:27.040 --> 1:20:29.720 few years working on a project in southern California at 1:20:30.120 --> 1:20:33.920 Santa Ana Country Club. And so the golf course that 1:20:34.080 --> 1:20:37.560 was there before we did our big project was essentially 1:20:37.600 --> 1:20:41.000 at seventies or eighties golf course and every single green 1:20:41.040 --> 1:20:45.080 complex you know, bunker, short, left, short, right, The green 1:20:45.200 --> 1:20:48.320 was all the same size and shape and surrounded by rough, 1:20:48.520 --> 1:20:52.200 and all the greens were elevated three feet right. And 1:20:52.280 --> 1:20:58.599 so you know, in going through the process and talking about, 1:20:58.800 --> 1:21:01.080 you know, what could be, we were trying to do 1:21:01.320 --> 1:21:05.200 some member education on the courses there. And you know, 1:21:05.320 --> 1:21:08.200 most members of a club, you play your course, and 1:21:08.240 --> 1:21:10.000 you play there with your friends. It's what you know 1:21:10.080 --> 1:21:12.640 and you love, right, But when you really start to 1:21:12.720 --> 1:21:16.479 study golf courses, you can get a feel for a boy, 1:21:16.960 --> 1:21:19.400 I'm hitting the same shot over and over and over again. 1:21:19.439 --> 1:21:23.400 And you know everything, if you went twenty yards around 1:21:23.479 --> 1:21:26.320 every single green at that golf course and probably the 1:21:26.439 --> 1:21:29.200 vast majority of other golf courses from that time period, 1:21:30.479 --> 1:21:33.200 everything within twenty yards is the same shot. It's a sandwich, 1:21:33.400 --> 1:21:35.560 and it's either a lob shot out of rough or 1:21:35.600 --> 1:21:38.840 a lob shot out of a bucker. And there's you know, 1:21:39.439 --> 1:21:42.280 that's a very hard shot for a mid to high 1:21:42.320 --> 1:21:46.160 handicapper to execute, and it's not terribly tough for a 1:21:46.160 --> 1:21:53.759 low handicap to execute. And when you introduced the ground plane, 1:21:53.800 --> 1:21:59.479 and now you've got tighter ground and different undulations and 1:21:59.560 --> 1:22:03.400 things are maintain firm and fast. Now you can play 1:22:03.439 --> 1:22:06.960 the ball on the ground or in the air. You 1:22:07.000 --> 1:22:12.479 can Uh, those those undulations, whether they're convex or concave, 1:22:12.600 --> 1:22:15.160 can be can be used. They can become a hazard 1:22:15.320 --> 1:22:19.160 or a helper. Uh and uh. It just brings out 1:22:19.240 --> 1:22:24.640 so much more in terms of strategy and creativity. And 1:22:24.640 --> 1:22:27.800 and the nice thing is for for a higher handicapper, 1:22:27.880 --> 1:22:31.559 the the options available to them. You know, if you're 1:22:31.600 --> 1:22:34.400 not able to hit that lob shot with a sandwich, 1:22:34.439 --> 1:22:38.200 you can put it and uh and and so I 1:22:38.360 --> 1:22:42.439 just find that to be something that's that's critically uh important, 1:22:42.479 --> 1:22:44.280 and we hope we see a lot more of There 1:22:44.280 --> 1:22:47.559 has been, uh there's been a trend towards that, at 1:22:47.640 --> 1:22:50.280 least in some circles, and that's something I'd like to 1:22:50.280 --> 1:22:51.040 see more and more of. 1:22:51.560 --> 1:22:57.040 Yeah, I agree, So last question, then we'll do a 1:22:57.080 --> 1:23:00.920 couple over and underags then taken up more. 1:23:00.760 --> 1:23:05.160 Than enough of your time, Johnny begsos if we've rolled 1:23:05.320 --> 1:23:08.000 the golf ball back to the original pro v one 1:23:08.600 --> 1:23:10.640 with that save OLED courses. 1:23:13.439 --> 1:23:17.360 Oh, I don't know that it's a one. You know, 1:23:17.479 --> 1:23:22.519 certainly addressing the golf ball and possibly addressing clubs together, 1:23:22.760 --> 1:23:25.800 I think is critical. And again this really relates to 1:23:25.920 --> 1:23:30.320 championship golf. I mean, as much as the advances in 1:23:30.400 --> 1:23:36.360 technology have helped you know, lesser players, you know, lesser 1:23:36.360 --> 1:23:39.720 players don't hit the ball for three hundred yards. It's 1:23:39.800 --> 1:23:43.160 these top one presenters that are flying at three twenty 1:23:43.680 --> 1:23:48.479 and that's the that's the real Crux four Championship golf. 1:23:49.800 --> 1:23:52.840 So I don't know if it's going back to the 1:23:52.840 --> 1:23:56.200 pro V one, I don't know the exact right place 1:23:56.240 --> 1:23:58.000 to go back to, but I know we have to 1:23:58.760 --> 1:24:03.040 have to go back and and and have to have 1:24:03.240 --> 1:24:06.519 to get get it under control, and it needed to 1:24:06.520 --> 1:24:09.080 be done a long time ago, and and we're long 1:24:09.120 --> 1:24:12.519 overdue and and when that happens, will be will be 1:24:12.520 --> 1:24:13.120 better served. 1:24:13.520 --> 1:24:17.360 M Yeah, I think it's it's something has to happen, 1:24:17.479 --> 1:24:20.400 at least at least on the professional level. I think 1:24:20.439 --> 1:24:23.519 it's good for the like the regular play, but it's 1:24:23.920 --> 1:24:27.120 I don't I have less fun on the golf course 1:24:27.160 --> 1:24:28.240 now because of the ball. 1:24:30.000 --> 1:24:34.400 Well, I'm somebody who loves to try different shots, and 1:24:34.400 --> 1:24:39.679 and uh, even though I've maybe executed the shot previously 1:24:39.680 --> 1:24:41.680 in my life, I'm not good enough to execute it 1:24:41.680 --> 1:24:44.479 on demand. But if I see a shot that that 1:24:44.640 --> 1:24:47.960 demands a faide, I want to try and hit a fade. Uh, 1:24:48.120 --> 1:24:51.040 you know. And I love working the ball, you know, 1:24:51.560 --> 1:24:54.680 right the left, left to right high low. Even if 1:24:54.720 --> 1:24:56.439 I'm not good enough to pull it off, it just 1:24:56.479 --> 1:24:59.640 makes golf that much more fun. But uh, you know, 1:24:59.760 --> 1:25:02.519 so getting back to some of those days would be 1:25:02.720 --> 1:25:05.040 a good thing. I'll be very curious to see how 1:25:05.560 --> 1:25:08.320 the Masters and Augusta National fits into that equation. I 1:25:08.400 --> 1:25:12.800 think they have a golden opportunity. You know, there isn't 1:25:12.800 --> 1:25:14.800 a player on earth that's going to turn down an 1:25:14.800 --> 1:25:18.040 invitation to the Masters. And if they said, oh, by 1:25:18.040 --> 1:25:19.960 the way, in twenty eighteen, we're going to be playing 1:25:19.960 --> 1:25:24.439 with the tournament ball. You know, every pro is still 1:25:24.439 --> 1:25:25.960 going to show up and they're going to be excited 1:25:25.960 --> 1:25:29.400 about it. So they hold I'll be curious to see 1:25:29.520 --> 1:25:32.160 their role and everything, because I think they've got the 1:25:32.200 --> 1:25:35.880 easiest opportunity to make something happen there. 1:25:36.200 --> 1:25:40.720 Unfortunately, buying that land might be a bad you know, 1:25:40.880 --> 1:25:42.080 they might be adding length. 1:25:42.920 --> 1:25:49.240 You know, sad well that adding length and planting trees 1:25:49.280 --> 1:25:53.160 seems to have been the model over the last thirty years. 1:25:54.360 --> 1:25:57.479 Hopefully they'll be uh the next thirty years might be 1:25:57.520 --> 1:25:58.200 a little different. 1:25:58.479 --> 1:26:04.400 Yeah, so we'll get the final overrated underrateds here, I'm 1:26:04.439 --> 1:26:11.520 going to say green speeds and stimp readings overrated, underrated, overrated. 1:26:12.080 --> 1:26:16.880 Certainly, I'm a big fan of greens with I like 1:26:16.920 --> 1:26:20.960 greens of contour or speeds that match the contour. Let's 1:26:20.960 --> 1:26:24.400 just put that way. A different speed for a different 1:26:24.520 --> 1:26:27.720 set of greens is probably the right answer. But this 1:26:29.080 --> 1:26:32.320 love affair with thirteen on the STEMP meter just makes 1:26:33.240 --> 1:26:35.559 means that greens need to get flatter and flatter and 1:26:35.680 --> 1:26:39.880 more boring and more boring. Or if you've got greens 1:26:39.920 --> 1:26:41.920 of contour and you maintain them at thirteen, then they're 1:26:42.000 --> 1:26:44.599 unplayable and they'll fund and people get upset and want 1:26:44.640 --> 1:26:45.320 to change the green. 1:26:45.479 --> 1:26:51.680 So it's like that, was it. 1:26:51.880 --> 1:26:54.800 Nairn in Scotland has a sign that says, you know, 1:26:55.080 --> 1:26:58.559 we're on the windiest property on earth or green speeds 1:26:58.560 --> 1:27:01.760 are five to six, so just deal with it, you know. 1:27:02.120 --> 1:27:04.800 It's just there's a lot of factors that go into it. 1:27:06.120 --> 1:27:15.160 And then last one would be, uh, the great hazard 1:27:14.240 --> 1:27:14.519 as it. 1:27:16.080 --> 1:27:19.439 Under, Yeah, so good, right. 1:27:20.560 --> 1:27:23.920 Yeah, absolutely, I mean golf is supposed to be fun, 1:27:23.920 --> 1:27:25.599 and what's more fun than a great hazard? 1:27:25.840 --> 1:27:28.240 Right? Oh yeah, I get I get a lot of 1:27:28.240 --> 1:27:30.360 ship because I love it so much, but. 1:27:32.479 --> 1:27:33.040 It's so good. 1:27:33.080 --> 1:27:37.479 Good story, good great stories come from the great hazard. Yeah, 1:27:37.560 --> 1:27:42.400 So the more the more great hazards, the more great stories. 1:27:42.600 --> 1:27:44.800 It's such a it's a it's a fun design like it. 1:27:44.960 --> 1:27:48.160 You know, it is a forced carry for the higher handicap, 1:27:48.240 --> 1:27:50.400 but like one or two of those in a round 1:27:50.479 --> 1:27:54.240 is so good because it's so thrilling for them. 1:27:54.360 --> 1:27:56.479 Well, I think you did touch on a good point 1:27:56.520 --> 1:27:59.120 there that it could be overdone. We don't we don't 1:27:59.160 --> 1:28:03.000 need we don't need it on eighteen holes. But uh uh, 1:28:03.280 --> 1:28:06.160 but the idea of it at a point or two 1:28:06.280 --> 1:28:10.200 in the round certainly certainly makes for great fun and 1:28:10.280 --> 1:28:11.360 great interest in my mind. 1:28:11.600 --> 1:28:15.519 Yeah. Well, hey, thanks for coming on. Look forward to 1:28:15.560 --> 1:28:19.040 meeting next week at the Renaissance Cup. And uh, who. 1:28:18.840 --> 1:28:20.840 Knows, there might be it might be a late night 1:28:20.880 --> 1:28:22.040 podcast done there. 1:28:22.439 --> 1:28:23.679 You got to figure that out. 1:28:25.080 --> 1:28:30.320 That that could be interesting. Yeah, interesting, Andy, Thank you. 1:28:30.360 --> 1:28:33.439 I really appreciate the opportunity I tune in, tune in 1:28:33.479 --> 1:28:36.960 regularly and appreciate all that your tongue, and I know 1:28:37.040 --> 1:28:39.639 all the listeners to too, So keep it up, keep 1:28:39.640 --> 1:28:40.679 it up, keep up the good work. 1:28:40.760 --> 1:28:44.200 Yeah, follow Jay on Twitter? What what is it is it? 1:28:44.360 --> 1:28:48.920 At j uh at j blobby all. 1:28:48.880 --> 1:28:51.080 Right, I'm I don't even know my own Twitter handle, 1:28:51.200 --> 1:28:56.200 so don't be offended. All right, have a good one 1:28:56.240 --> 1:28:57.320 and we'll see you in a couple. 1:28:57.160 --> 1:29:12.559 Of days named in storms as may at some days