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Speaker 1: I miss the green.

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Speaker 2: For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball

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Speaker 2: in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a frid Egg

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Speaker 1: Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday Friday Bride Egg.

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Speaker 2: Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the golf course.

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Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the

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Speaker 1: Frida Egg Podcast. This morning, we're joined by golf course

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Speaker 1: architect Jay Blasi. Jay was an integral part in the

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Speaker 1: design of Chambers Bay under Robert Trent Jones Junior Design

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Speaker 1: and uh now he's out on his own, recently completed

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Speaker 1: a great project at Santa Ana Country Club and is

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Speaker 1: a big part of the Sharp Park movement and restoration

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Speaker 1: in San Francisco.

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Speaker 2: Jay, welcome on, Thanks so much.

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Speaker 3: Andy, I'm excited to join you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it'd be fun. Hey.

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Speaker 1: The thing I always like to start out with these

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Speaker 1: conversations is I'm curious about how you got into golf

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Speaker 1: and then how when did you kind of decide you

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Speaker 1: want to be a golf course architect.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, for me, it started really early and kind of

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Speaker 3: close to your heart. My dad grew up on the

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Speaker 3: South Side.

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Speaker 4: Of Chicago and was a caddye at Beverly.

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Speaker 3: And so that's how he fell in love with the game.

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Speaker 3: And he met my mom at the University of Wisconsin

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Speaker 3: and they settled in Madison. And so when I was born,

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Speaker 3: he brought plastic clubs to the hospital, and when he

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Speaker 3: was a teacher, and so he had summers off. On

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Speaker 3: his summer's off, he worked on the Grountin's crew and

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Speaker 3: he befriended the superintendent, who was an influential guy in

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Speaker 3: Wisconsin from the superintendent side of things with Roe Miller,

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Speaker 3: and so when they built their first house, he convinced

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Speaker 3: the superintendent to come over and build a putting green

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Speaker 3: in the backyard. So I was lucky enough to grow

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Speaker 3: up I had a putting green in my backyard.

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Speaker 4: And then we moved when I was young, and we

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Speaker 4: ended up with.

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Speaker 3: A putting green with two little bunkers. And then we

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Speaker 3: moved again, and I then we moved out to the

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Speaker 3: country and had seven acres, and then we had three

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Speaker 3: putting greens in the yard or three little golf holes

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Speaker 3: in the yard. So my interest in the game started,

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Speaker 3: you know, literally when I was born, and all through

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Speaker 3: my childhood and then my interest in architecture really started

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Speaker 3: very young as well. When I was four or five,

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Speaker 3: We'd go out to dinner and I'd flip the place

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Speaker 3: mat over and draw golf holes and cryan. And we'd

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Speaker 3: take all sorts of family vacations, always driving vacations, and

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Speaker 3: I just spend the whole trip in the back seat

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Speaker 3: with my face plastered to the window, looking out at

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Speaker 3: the fun fields and visioning golf holes and stuff. So

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Speaker 3: the interest in that started started very young. And uh,

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Speaker 3: and then was very fortunate that uh uh, And thank

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Speaker 3: my parents again. They were really the ones who kind

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Speaker 3: of gave them the push. When it was time to

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Speaker 3: go to college. I had figured out that most people

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Speaker 3: in golf design had gotten a degree in open escape

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Speaker 3: architecture and and and so I knew that and was

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Speaker 3: passionate about designing golf courses, but for some reason didn't

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Speaker 3: necessarily think of it as a viable career anything. And

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Speaker 3: they were the ones who kind of kicked me in

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Speaker 3: the butt and said, no, you actually have you got

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Speaker 3: to go for this. If you're lucky enough to find

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Speaker 3: a passion life, you got to you gotta do you

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Speaker 3: go into business. You know, at any time but chase

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Speaker 3: your dreams or whatever. And so I went to the

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Speaker 3: University of Wisconsin, got a degree in landscape architecture, and

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Speaker 3: after school ended up with our teacher YouTube nice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean, getting to do what you

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Speaker 1: love and had a passion force into your kid is

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Speaker 1: probably like the most rewarding thing ever. I mean, you work,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like work, which has got to be

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Speaker 1: so refreshing for you.

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Speaker 3: It is, And I think that would be one thing

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Speaker 3: that I would you know, whether it's golf, architecture or

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Speaker 3: anything else. I mean, I think, you know, as a

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Speaker 3: as a country, as a as a society, would be

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Speaker 3: far better served if we really encouraged all of our

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Speaker 3: young people to find a passion and chase that. Because

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Speaker 3: if you're passionate about something, you're going to be good

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Speaker 3: at it, and you're going to put You're going to

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Speaker 3: put in the extra time and effort, and you know,

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Speaker 3: everything is better. You know, when when somebody's passionate about something,

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Speaker 3: the outcomes are always are always better. So U yeah,

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Speaker 3: I feel fortunate. I pinch myself every day that I

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Speaker 3: get to do this, and I wish more people had

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Speaker 3: the opportunity to follow their dreams and chase their dreams.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's.

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Speaker 1: I imagine how long until you move out you're in

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Speaker 1: San Francisco, you can't have a putting green in your

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Speaker 1: back yard now, I bet, But like, how long you

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Speaker 1: know when you're going to get your putting green, your

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Speaker 1: own putting green.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there are no.

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Speaker 3: I don't have any putting green here in the Bay Area,

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Speaker 3: that's for sure. I feel very fortunate to have a

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Speaker 3: roof and four walls. That the cost of living out here.

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Speaker 3: But I'm lucky enough that if if I hop in

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Speaker 3: the car and go twenty minutes, I get to make

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Speaker 3: use of the Stanford Practice facilities. So that's a pretty

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Speaker 3: good putting green backyard situation for me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good.

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Speaker 1: So growing up, did you have to take care of

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Speaker 1: the putting green? Did you learn some like agronomy from that?

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Speaker 1: And like who who had to mow the green?

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Speaker 3: Well? I would mow it. My dad would know it.

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Speaker 3: I have a younger brother, he would mow it. I

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Speaker 3: probably was not as good or in tune with the

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Speaker 3: maintenance side of things as I should have been when

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Speaker 3: I was little. But interestingly enough, yeah, my dad had

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Speaker 3: this really old cool mower that I think he had

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Speaker 3: gotten somehow on some kind of auction or something and whatnot,

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Speaker 3: and we'd know it, we'd mow it and whatnot. I

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Speaker 3: did get to lay out the first little court. You know,

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Speaker 3: when I talk about the backyard putting green, this is

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Speaker 3: nothing too fancy.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's a.

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Speaker 3: Small, little residential lot. But we made up a eighteen

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Speaker 3: whole course. You know, the longest shot was fifteen yards,

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Speaker 3: but we made up a little eighteen whole course in

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Speaker 3: the backyard. So that was probably my first layout, was

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Speaker 3: laying out the eighteen old course, and then we made

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Speaker 3: up a little scorecard and we'd always had little competitions

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Speaker 3: in the backyard. It's a good way to grow up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. My buddy.

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Speaker 1: I had a really good buddy growing up that lived

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Speaker 1: up the street and we both, you know.

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Speaker 2: We'd play golf like all summer long together.

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Speaker 1: But when we weren't at the course we were playing,

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Speaker 1: we'd play front yard with football golf and like, thank God,

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Speaker 1: you know, God bless our neighbors because we would we

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Speaker 1: had all.

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Speaker 2: These different holes.

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Speaker 1: You know, the street was a water hazard, and we'd

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Speaker 1: play across into people's yards and you know, the trees

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Speaker 1: were the holes, and I mean it was so much fun.

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Speaker 1: But you know it was you start to design kind

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Speaker 1: of holes like, oh, this one's a dog like left

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Speaker 1: like and you got a you know, the different tough

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Speaker 1: features of it. You have to lay up sometimes if

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Speaker 1: you couldn't carry the carry the street. So it was

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Speaker 1: so fun when you're you know, I wish you could

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Speaker 1: go back to that.

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Speaker 2: Almost.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I've done the same thing and it's great fun. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: what's better than that? Growing up like that as a kid.

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Speaker 3: I had a really fun thing happened, you know, by

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Speaker 3: just by happenstance. My next door neighbor, who I a

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Speaker 3: number of times as a as a six year old,

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Speaker 3: was taking gibbots out of his yard, you know, And

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Speaker 3: here I am, you know, twenty eight thirty years later,

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Speaker 3: I'm working on Central World back up in northern Wisconsin,

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Speaker 3: and it was time to kind of make a pitch

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Speaker 3: to the board of directors at Centry Insurance who were

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Speaker 3: going to approve the project. And in walks my former

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Speaker 3: next door neighbor, who now you know, he's ahead of

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Speaker 3: a now he's he became the head of an energy

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Speaker 3: company and he's on the board of directors and he

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Speaker 3: looks and he lights up like a candle, and I

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Speaker 3: look at him and he just puts his arm around

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Speaker 3: me and he looks to the rest of the board.

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Speaker 4: He goes.

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Speaker 3: The last time I saw Jay Pozzi, he was hitting

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Speaker 3: golf balls out of my backyard. Yeah, so it comes

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Speaker 3: full circle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's uh, it was, you know, thank god.

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Speaker 1: If any of my neighbors are listening, they got to

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Speaker 1: you know, they they let me and my buddy just

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Speaker 1: just hack divots out of their front yard all the time.

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Speaker 2: So so, uh, yeah, I gotta be honest.

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Speaker 1: I uh, I'm not a big the biggest Jones family fan. Uh,

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Speaker 1: having played a lot of their courses, I I disagree

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Speaker 1: with a lot of their principles. And I'm curious from

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Speaker 1: you working on the inside, you know, tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what it's like to work for rt

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Speaker 1: J two and and kind of how the whole design

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Speaker 1: process works with a with a you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest architectural firms in the in the world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think you know, to touch on your

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Speaker 3: comments first about you know, the Jones family and design philosophies.

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Speaker 3: I think it's important to I recognized. You know, when

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Speaker 3: you when you talk about the family, there really are

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Speaker 3: kind of three different parts to that that tree, right,

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Speaker 3: So you've got RTJ Senior, uh and and then you've

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Speaker 3: got the two sons, Uh, Bobby, rt J two and Reeve.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's important to make sure that you know,

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Speaker 3: they're all kind of uh it be it's easy to

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Speaker 3: kind of lump them all together, but but in reality,

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Speaker 3: they're each their own entity, right. So I never had

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Speaker 3: the chance to meet rtjuh Senior. I know some of

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Speaker 3: the you know, many of the people in the rt

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Speaker 3: J two office obviously, UH. And Bobby will be you know,

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Speaker 3: tells lots of stories about his dad and and stuff.

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Speaker 3: So I never had a chance to meet him. And

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Speaker 3: I've really spent very little time been in the same

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Speaker 3: room with Reese, but really haven't spent any time with him.

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Speaker 3: So uh. In terms of my experience at r t

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Speaker 3: J too, it was it was a great experience. And

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Speaker 3: that you know, I was a kid right out of

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Speaker 3: you know, right out of college, and you get the

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Speaker 3: opportunity to work at, like you say, one of the bigger,

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Speaker 3: more well known design firms in the world, and you

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Speaker 3: just get exposed to so much. I mean, there were

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Speaker 3: projects all over the world. They came in all sorts

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Speaker 3: of different shapes and sizes, So you were exposed to,

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Speaker 3: you know, a municipal project that were required a RFP

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Speaker 3: and an RFQ, So you got exposed to that kind

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Speaker 3: of process and what goes into trying to win a

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Speaker 3: job that way. And at the same time, then another

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Speaker 3: project was going to be a private club that was

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Speaker 3: privately owned by a billionaire, right, So you're getting to

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Speaker 3: see different ends of the spectrum from that side of things.

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Speaker 3: The sites that came across, I mean, there would be

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Speaker 3: sites that were really special and others that were not

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Speaker 3: special at all. You'd see, you know, uh, whether it

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Speaker 3: was something in Asia that was a dead flat, you know,

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Speaker 3: the rice paddy, and then uh, something else in Asia

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Speaker 3: that was you know, the side of a mountain.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And then and then you'd see all you know, so

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Speaker 3: you got to see uh and got exposed to everything.

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Speaker 3: And then uh, you know, even in the golf design world,

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Speaker 3: even the big firms, you know what you call the

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Speaker 3: big firms, every day we only had a half a

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Speaker 3: dozen people, you know. Uh, So then you get to

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Speaker 3: learn about each of those people and and they each

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Speaker 3: have a different background and story, and they kind of

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Speaker 3: have their own little design philosophy or or things that

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Speaker 3: tendencies that they like to do on the projects that

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Speaker 3: they work on. So, you know, even if you don't

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Speaker 3: agree one hundred percent with with each of with past

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Speaker 3: work or each of the design philosophies, it was a

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Speaker 3: wonderful uh opportunity and ex experience and great exposure to

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Speaker 3: a wide variety of things. Part of the golf business.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine the big firm allows you so many

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Speaker 1: opportunities to whether it's not even working on but getting

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Speaker 1: to just see great you know, some of the best

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Speaker 1: courses you know, and as well as you know getting

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Speaker 1: you know, the volume of work and the volume of

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Speaker 1: projects is so high that you get inundated so much

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Speaker 1: quickly as a young kid.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think coming right out of school, it was,

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Speaker 3: like I said, it was a great experience. You know,

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Speaker 3: my first couple of years there, I didn't you know,

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Speaker 3: I was assisting other people, so I wasn't playing a

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Speaker 3: real creative role in any any project. But you know,

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Speaker 3: when when you see when when the you know, whether

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Speaker 3: it was Bobby or somebody who was doing business development,

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Speaker 3: went out, they took a trip to Europe, and they

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Speaker 3: come back and they say, hey, I met with this guy,

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Speaker 3: and here's here's the topo map for this site, you know,

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Speaker 3: and and then somebody in the office puts together put

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Speaker 3: together a preliminary routing just to see what could fit

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Speaker 3: on the site, or a preliminary grading plan. And then

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Speaker 3: you know, if my job then those first couple of

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Speaker 3: years was to uh, you know, trace that or draw

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Speaker 3: it up pretty or or enter it into the computer

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Speaker 3: or whatever. You know, that's just that's an opportunity. You know,

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Speaker 3: how many uh, twenty two year olds get the opportunity

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Speaker 3: to spend six hours looking at the topo map and

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Speaker 3: routing and trying to understand. And so what I would

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Speaker 3: do is I would I would do whatever I was

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Speaker 3: supposed to be doing, which is, you know, drawing up

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Speaker 3: somebody else's idea. And then I'd take that same topo

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Speaker 3: map and take it home at night and my own

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Speaker 3: force and do my own thing. And then I'd bring

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Speaker 3: it in and share it with whoever I was working

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Speaker 3: with and say, hey, you know, give me some feedback

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Speaker 3: on this, you know, So again just kind of great

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Speaker 3: exposure all the way around.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, what would you say you learned most over

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Speaker 1: during your time there.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think I again, I think it was you know,

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Speaker 3: it was probably not any one lesson, but that there

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Speaker 3: were just exposure to different things, like, you know, exposure

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Speaker 3: to the RFP process for public projects and meeting with

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Speaker 3: clients from all around the world and different cultures and

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Speaker 3: different backgrounds. And one thing that Bobby pointed out one

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Speaker 3: day we were on site that there's something that I

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Speaker 3: take with me and still think about a lot. As

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Speaker 3: we were out there talking about, you know, a certain

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Speaker 3: golf hole, and you know, he was asking me to

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Speaker 3: walk in through my thoughts on something and and and

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Speaker 3: then he said, well, you know, it's important to remember

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Speaker 3: that people see things differently. Just because you and I

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Speaker 3: are standing next to each other looking at the same

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Speaker 3: thing doesn't mean that we see it the same way.

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Speaker 3: And so it's really important to be really good with

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Speaker 3: communication and make sure that you're you're verbalizing and you're talking,

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Speaker 3: and you're working with whoever you're you're working with on

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Speaker 3: the project, whether it's the owner or another designer or

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Speaker 3: the contractor or whoever, to make sure that you really

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Speaker 3: communicate well and understand what they're seeing. Don't just assume

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Speaker 3: that because you're standing next to each other looking at

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Speaker 3: the same thing, that you see the same thing. So

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Speaker 3: that's something that that I took away and I use

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Speaker 3: every day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like that's like when when people get

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Speaker 1: to walk with an architects and I see it. You know,

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Speaker 1: when I've I've played with I've gotten the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: play with some architects, is like, you know, they just

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Speaker 1: see they see things in such a different way. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I'm pretty well read and

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Speaker 1: I see things in certain ways, but you know, they

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Speaker 1: they and being able to communicate that to someone is

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Speaker 1: so tough because a lot of times, like the person

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with on a on a project from whether

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Speaker 1: it be a club side or an owner's side, isn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily as well read and don't understand you know, the

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Speaker 1: principles behind architecture.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely that that is so true, and you see that

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Speaker 3: on it. You know, I see that on every project

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Speaker 3: I work on, and it just becomes more and more

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Speaker 3: clear over time, and it makes sense. You know, if

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Speaker 3: somebody we're trying to explain to me, you know the

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Speaker 3: details of the you know, the wiring in the house.

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Speaker 3: You know, I wouldn't understand what they're talking about, and

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Speaker 3: they could be eloquent and and walk walk me through

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Speaker 3: at a basic level, and I may or may not

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Speaker 3: get it right. But you know, as a golf architect, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I go out and I, you know, look at an

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Speaker 3: existing golf hole and I can immediately right in my

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Speaker 3: mind see what I might want it to be, or

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Speaker 3: or see an alternative. Or if you're looking at vacant land,

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Speaker 3: you know, you can go out there and you can

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Speaker 3: see right away how how you might want certain things

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Speaker 3: to unfold. But the ability to try to communicate that

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Speaker 3: and walk people through that is it's an important skill

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Speaker 3: and it's a it's a challenging exercise. I think when

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Speaker 3: we were working on Santa Ana over the last few years,

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Speaker 3: we would, uh, you know, I spent a lot of

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Speaker 3: time with the members kind of walking through what the

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Speaker 3: what the vision is, what the plans were, and then

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Speaker 3: we'd have like a construction walk through, you know. So

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Speaker 3: we would be in the middle of construction and Friday afternoon,

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Speaker 3: we'd invite the members out. We'd go walk around and

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Speaker 3: I'd walk them through, Okay, here we are, We're on

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Speaker 3: the first hole. We're on the left hand side. We're

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Speaker 3: starting to shape a bunker over there. The green's going

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Speaker 3: to be up ahead, and this is what we're trying

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Speaker 3: to set up. And you'd walk people through that and

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Speaker 3: then say are there any questions? And somebody would say

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Speaker 3: is there going to be a bunker, and I'd say, well, yeah,

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Speaker 3: actually I just told you we're actually standing in the

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Speaker 3: bunker right here. Oh I couldn't see that. You know,

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Speaker 3: looking looking at dirt is really really hard hard for people.

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Speaker 3: And as soon as the grass goes down, now all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden kind of the aha moment comes, Oh,

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Speaker 3: now I understand what you were telling me. But sometimes

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Speaker 3: it's it's really tough along the way to uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: for people who don't do this all day every day

356
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Speaker 3: to kind of see it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the course I play at in Chicago. When I

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Speaker 1: say I play at, I've played there like three times

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Speaker 1: this year. But to old Donald Ross and all of

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Speaker 1: our greens are like so small compared to what their

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Speaker 1: original design was. And there they're to small ovals and

362
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Speaker 1: circles because of irrigation and maintenance things, and you know,

363
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Speaker 1: it just happened over time. But you know, and then

364
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 1: they put in these sprinklers and you see sprinklers on

365
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Speaker 1: where the green should be and even trees on it

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Speaker 1: where and I, you know, I texted my buddies, I

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Speaker 1: took some aerial shots with my drone and then you know,

368
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Speaker 1: photoshopped over them like where the green should be. And they,

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Speaker 1: you know, nobody really knows what you're you know, they

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Speaker 1: look at and they're like, oh, this guy's just crazy.

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Speaker 2: But then when you play with them and you walk

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Speaker 2: and you show them, it's like, look at this where

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Speaker 2: this green should go.

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Speaker 1: And then look imagine this pin, Like imagine how this

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Speaker 1: pin completely changes the whole and how when you get

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Speaker 1: these greens over close to the bunkers, how much more

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Speaker 1: of a challenge it is. And it's not necessarily even

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Speaker 1: just the pinnable surface. It's the stuff that's not pinnable

379
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Speaker 1: that makes the ball roll off the green ten yards.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm sure that they would be uh that

381
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Speaker 3: you could talk to them for months and months and months,

382
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Speaker 3: But if you snuck out in the middle of the

383
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Speaker 3: night and mow down the area in question to something

384
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Speaker 3: close to green height, they'd probably see it a lot,

385
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Speaker 3: a lot easier.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's yeah, hoping they'd do something that at this fall.

387
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Speaker 1: But so you know, on the subject, you know, what

388
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Speaker 1: do you think went wrong with golf course architecture?

389
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Speaker 2: And not to say.

390
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Speaker 1: There weren't any good projects, but with this dearth of

391
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Speaker 1: projects that you know, end up now being just you know,

392
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Speaker 1: kind of sores on the golf community.

393
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Speaker 2: From like nineteen sixty to two thousand.

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Speaker 3: And five, well, I think a couple of things. So

395
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Speaker 3: first I would I might have a little bit different

396
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Speaker 3: time frame because I think that probably in the mid

397
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Speaker 3: nineties there at least started to be a lot a

398
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Speaker 3: lot of better stuff that started to come about. So

399
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Speaker 3: I don't know if you'd got you know, from ninety

400
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 3: five to two thousand and five, sure, there were dozens

401
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 3: of golf courtre maybe even hundreds of golf courses, but

402
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 3: people spent a lot of time and money and that

403
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 3: aren't very special. But there also were some that are

404
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 3: pretty special. So I'm not sure you want to totally

405
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Speaker 3: lump them all together, but I think to me, there's

406
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Speaker 3: probably three things. The first thing to keep in mind

407
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 3: was that that kind of coincided with technology advances in

408
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 3: terms of earth moving, in terms of agronomy, so all

409
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 3: of a sudden, whereas in the early nineteen hundreds, a

410
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 3: golf course was pretty much built where a golf course

411
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 3: should be built, right, A group of people would get

412
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 3: together and they'd say, hey, we're interested in forming a

413
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 3: golf club, and they'd go out and they'd find the

414
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 3: appropriate land because they didn't have the ability to create

415
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 3: their own environment, right, so they had to find an

416
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 3: environment that was suitable for golf, and so the land

417
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 3: was better. You know, there weren't golf carts, you know,

418
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 3: So now you're laying out a golf course that's walkable,

419
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 3: and you're trying to lay one out that doesn't require

420
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Speaker 3: earth moving. So now fast forward to the sixties, and

421
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, we're building golf courses proally where

422
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 3: they don't belong. We're building them in swamps and deserts

423
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 3: and mountain sides, and all of a sudden, we've got

424
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 3: golf carts and we've got big bulldozers. So now if

425
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 3: the environment doesn't work for us, we'll create our own.

426
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 3: And if the parcel doesn't work, well, we can piecemeal

427
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 3: a couple of them together and play a hole and

428
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 3: drive two hundred yards and play another hole. So those

429
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 3: are some of the things that probably went awry. The

430
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 3: other thing is that the reason for building a golf

431
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 3: course probably changed. You know, back in the early nineteen hundreds,

432
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 3: people got together and they built a golf course because

433
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 3: they wanted to play off. The vast majority of courses

434
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 3: probably from nineteen sixty one, we're probably built for a

435
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 3: reason other than golf, whether that was to sell real

436
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: estate or fill hotel rooms and be an amenity for

437
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 3: some kind of a resort. So with those things in mind,

438
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 3: the reasoning for having a golf course was different. That

439
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: led to, in my opinion, what is very troubling, and

440
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 3: that's just a ton of artificial features. Right, So all

441
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 3: of a sudden, we're using the bulldozer to craft a

442
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 3: new landscape, and we're building a bunch of artificial lakes,

443
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 3: and we're plant and flowers and planting trees everywhere. And

444
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 3: now we've got golf carts, so we start putting in

445
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 3: seven miles of concrete ribbons all over the place. So

446
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 3: all the stuff that takes away from from great golf

447
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 3: and all the stuff that we love about the golf

448
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 3: from the early ninety teen hundreds, you know, we're kind

449
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 3: of kind of did the opposite for a big period

450
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 3: of time there, and now we're kind of at a

451
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 3: very interesting time in golf architecture that we've got a

452
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 3: lot of wonderful projects that really are are you know,

453
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 3: kind of recapturing the essence of the early nineteen hundreds

454
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: where somebody's building a golf course for to build a

455
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 3: special golf course because people want to play golf. And

456
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 3: at the same time, then there's still also a number.

457
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 4: Of projects where people are building a golf course to.

458
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 3: Full hotel rooms and to sell real estate. So you've

459
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 3: kind of got this interesting dichotomy that's going on.

460
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, what do you you say?

461
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: You know, I think one of the things I think

462
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: about a lot is all these golf courses that were

463
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: you know, they aren't you know, they aren't the best

464
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: golf courses, But what happens to them in the future,

465
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: Like how can we you know, are they can they

466
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: be fixed? And can they be made into something that's

467
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: good for the game and a good golf course for

468
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: people to play every day?

469
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: And how do you go about doing that?

470
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think it's an interesting question. And like

471
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 3: everything with golf, it's site specific, right, So the right

472
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 3: solution on site A is not the right solution at

473
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 3: site B, and the right solution in city A might

474
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 3: not be the right solution in city B. But we're

475
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 3: definitely at a time in golf where, you know, we

476
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 3: have a lot more courses closing than opening. And what's

477
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 3: interesting to me is the ones that are closing aren't

478
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 3: always the worst golf courses, right, which is tragic, But

479
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 3: it seems one thing that I've certainly noticed is that

480
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: there's so many, like you said, usually golf courses that

481
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 3: were built from nineteen sixty on or renovated from nineteen

482
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 3: sixty on. That just leaves so much to be desired,

483
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 3: and that's really a shame. And so I'm cautiously optimistic

484
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 3: that over the next twenty years, many of those golf

485
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: courses that you know, one of my favorite things to

486
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 3: do is to go look on Google Earth, right, you

487
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 3: could just go around and go check out different golf

488
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 3: courses all over the world or all over the country,

489
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 3: and there are so many golf courses that might be

490
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 3: in a good location, in a good city, in a

491
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 3: good area, and then you go look at the golf

492
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 3: course and every single hole, you know, the green is

493
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 3: the same size oval. There's a bunker short left, there's

494
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 3: a bunker short right. You know, there's usually one fairway

495
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 3: bunker out there. Everything's been planted with trees over the

496
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 3: last forty years, so you know, you know that you're

497
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 3: just hitting the same shot over and over again. You

498
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 3: get up on every tee and keep it between the trees,

499
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 3: and you hit into every green and it's you.

500
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 4: Know, avoid the hazards right.

501
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 3: And left and get it out of the green and

502
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 3: stay below the whole. But those are golf courses that

503
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 3: might be in a good area where, you know, if

504
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 3: and when the time comes to replace the infrastructure, the

505
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 3: irrigation system and the drainage and stuff, rather than investing

506
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 3: in all of that infrastructure and keeping things the way

507
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 3: they are, when it's time to invest in the infrastructure,

508
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 3: that's the time to make some changes and make sure that, hey,

509
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 3: we can take this property that's already permitted as a

510
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 3: golf course and already zoned as a golf course and

511
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 3: has a good market and get rid of this mediocre

512
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 3: thing and make something special and give people the stuff

513
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 3: that we all kind of yearned for, the stuff from

514
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 3: the early nineteen hundreds where people had options and angles,

515
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: and there was a lot of variety and strategy and

516
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 3: thought to thought to the round of golf.

517
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: It's interesting I hosted a lot of people on this podcast,

518
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: and I've noticed over time that almost everybody, you know,

519
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: not almost, I would say the vast majority of people

520
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: that I host on this podcast that are involved with

521
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: golf today grew up playing at a municipal or a

522
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: public golf course. And I think to myself, Okay, the

523
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: majority of those experiences probably weren't the best golf course experiences.

524
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: And imagine if those courses were really fun to play

525
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: and had really sound architectural principles, not to mention the

526
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: sustainability aspect of you know, if you don't have too

527
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: many hazards, how much cheaper it is to maintain, and

528
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: how these different little things like how many more great

529
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: people would we have, you know, involved with the game

530
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: still if they grew up at a place that was

531
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: really goo great play.

532
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think I certainly agree that municipal golf is

533
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 3: important and it's where many people got their start. I

534
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: certainly got my start in Madison playing on municipal golf

535
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 3: courses and loved it, and I wholeheartedly agree that it

536
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 3: would be awesome. It doesn't cost any more money to

537
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: build an architecturally interesting golf course than it does architecturally

538
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 3: uninteresting golf course, right, and if you're smart about it,

539
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 3: you can craft one that's maybe easier to maintain as well.

540
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 3: At the same time, to your point, I guess where

541
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 3: I made different a little bit is that, you know,

542
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 3: at that age, you know, as much as I was

543
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 3: interested in golf as a eight year old or a

544
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: twelve year old, I probably wasn't at a point where

545
00:30:53,800 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 3: I was really at least consciously understanding the different it's

546
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 3: of great architecture at that At that point, I think

547
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 3: I was excited to have a go play a safe

548
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 3: place to go play golf and have have fun with

549
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 3: my friend, you know. And I think it's important that

550
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 3: we certainly preserve and do everything that we can to

551
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 3: to make sure that municipal golf does stick around, because

552
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: in today's climate, uh, with with city budgets and stuff

553
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 3: like that, that's a tough task. I mean, if people

554
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: have a choice between uh, you know, the fire department

555
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 3: and the golf course, the fire department is going to win,

556
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: and it probably should. Yeah, And yet and yet the

557
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 3: golf course does have a very important place in a community.

558
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 3: It's a it's a great community gathering spot. It's a

559
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: place where people can have a healthy activity, but particularly

560
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: if people walk, uh you know, playing golf, you know,

561
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 3: and golf courses uh you know, Bobby always you talk

562
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 3: about the golf courses are kind of the green lungs

563
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 3: of a city. You know, if you fly across America

564
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 3: and look down, most of the green spaces in America's

565
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 3: cities are golf courses. So you know, it's a great

566
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: place to be outdoors and with and walk and get

567
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 3: a good experience that way, and it's a great place

568
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 3: to bring a community together.

569
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

570
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: I think if you if you just focus on like

571
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: city owned golf courses for like major metropolitan areas and

572
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: and really made those like really fun, cool places to play,

573
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: it would it would make such a difference. I think

574
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: about my home to the city Chicago. We have a

575
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: nine hole course called Sydney Maravitz.

576
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: It used to be called.

577
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: Waveland up on the north side of the city and

578
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's right on the lake, I mean

579
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: the most in it's right in the heart of the city.

580
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: It's the easiest course to get to. But the golf

581
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: course is just so bland and and there's a lot

582
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: of trees. It's tight, and you get a ton of

583
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: beginners out there, and I always think, like, why not

584
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: just take all the trees out, make it fairway grass

585
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: all around, and you've got these beautiful lake views. And

586
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: instead of it taking four hours to play nine holes,

587
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: it probably would take you know, three hours or two

588
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: and a half and to be just much more interesting

589
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: golf course.

590
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 3: Let's do it. I'm ready.

591
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: I just need to. I got to get in with

592
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: big politics in Chicago.

593
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 3: I guess, well, that's an easy thing to navigate. Yeah,

594
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: I'm sure that. I'm sure that you know, one meeting

595
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 3: and share your vision and they'll be ready to go

596
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 3: and make it happen.

597
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, no money, you know, just go in there.

598
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: It's a it's a pretty much bankruptcity. Just go in

599
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: there and say, hey, we need a we need a

600
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: couple of million for this. But so I'm curious just

601
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: with you know, being a younger architect and having seen

602
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: you you probably remember hitting a lot of golf balls.

603
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: I remember it. We're close to the same age.

604
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: And having lived through this change in technology and especially

605
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: the golf ball. What do you see as like the

606
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: future of golf course architecture, because what we're seeing from

607
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: the high level player is that the really the skills

608
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: that you need now are being able to hit the

609
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: driver long and straight and be a good short iron

610
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: wedge player and make putts and this whole long iron

611
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: and working the golf ball has kind of died with

612
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: the advancements of the ball in the last ten to

613
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: fifteen years.

614
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 4: No doubt about it.

615
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 3: And the truth is that you know, when you combine

616
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 3: the technology advances and how that impacts them, you know,

617
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 3: really the one percent the very top players of the

618
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 3: game golf is not sustainable at that I mean in

619
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 3: order to you know, if we're going to keep technology

620
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: the way that it is, or keep allowing advancements in

621
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 3: technology with you know, the two players and the college kids,

622
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: I mean, you've got to build an eighty five hundred

623
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: or nine thousand yard golf course to challenge those guys,

624
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 3: and that means more land, and then that means more

625
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 3: water and more resources, and it's it's just not sustainable.

626
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: So not to mention the course that that course is

627
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: only played by one percent of the population.

628
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 3: Well, that's the thing is that you know, so much

629
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 3: of the focus in the golf world and the attention

630
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 3: and the media relates to a game that the other

631
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 3: ninety percent aren't. Right. So, but the sad thing is

632
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 3: what people see on TV is what they then, you know,

633
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 3: kind of expect or demand at their facility. So, you know,

634
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 3: Augusta National and the Masters. I mean, everybody in golf

635
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 3: loves the Masters, and you know, all golf architects appreciate

636
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 3: Augusta National, right, I mean, there's nothing really bad to

637
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 3: say about it, except for the fact that you could

638
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 3: make the case that the televising of the Masters and

639
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 3: Augusta National every spring, everybody who ever plays golf watches

640
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: the Masters, and then they go and they expect or

641
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 3: want those types of conditions of their golf course. And

642
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 3: what they don't understand is that, you know, the golf

643
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 3: course Augusta is prepped all year for that event, and

644
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 3: that they've got an unlimited budget, and that that doesn't

645
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 3: that is not the case at your local union in Chicago.

646
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 3: And so now there's this, you know, there's everybody's pushing

647
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 3: to make their golf course, you know green, and I

648
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 3: don't mean environmentally friendly green, I mean artificial green, and

649
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 3: let's put white sand in the bunkers and do all

650
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: these different things. So those are the things that aren't

651
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: really sustainable. And kind of to your point earlier about

652
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 3: this pool golf and stuff, we I think we'd be

653
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 3: well served to take a look at the Scots or

654
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 3: take a look at Australia and see kind of how

655
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 3: they do it and and and if we want golf

656
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 3: to thrive over the long haul, that's that's probably a

657
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 3: better model to look to mm hmm.

658
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.

659
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: In terms of a project that you've been working on

660
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 1: for now nearly a decade, the Sharp Park Park project,

661
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: and it's the old Alisair Mackenzie course in the city

662
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: of San Francisco owns it, and you know, it's a

663
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: great seaside location that over the years has been you

664
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: know a little bit altered for environmental reasons, but just

665
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: basically a neglected.

666
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: Course that could be one.

667
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: Of the finest public golf courses in the world, designed

668
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: by arguably the greatest architect of all time. Tell us

669
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: a little bit about Sharp Park and you know the

670
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: journey of that course.

671
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm glad you brought that up because it

672
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 3: is such a special place. It's actually in the city

673
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 3: of Pacifica, which is about fifteen minutes kind of south

674
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 3: of San Francisco, but you gret the city does own

675
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 3: the golf course. And so the reason that it's like

676
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 3: you say, Kenzie golf course from the thirties, and it's

677
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 3: been in the news and I've been involved, like you said,

678
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 3: nearly a decade because there was a threat that we

679
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 3: were actually going to lose the golf course. There were

680
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:46,479
Speaker 3: federal lawsuits over habitat for frogs and snakes, and two

681
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:52,959
Speaker 3: local golfers and lawyers got together, Richard Harris and Bowl Linx.

682
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 3: And these guys are true heroes in the golf world.

683
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 3: So if people haven't heard of them, they should google

684
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 3: them and look them up. Them a thank you note.

685
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 3: But they they basically got together and said, Hey, this

686
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 3: this national treasure, this this museum, this monument is about

687
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 3: to be uh stolen from us, and and we're golfers

688
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 3: and we're environmentalists and this just doesn't have to be

689
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 3: the case. And and so uh, they they kind of

690
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 3: rallied the troops and engaged you know, the right uh

691
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 3: legal team as well as the community, the golf community,

692
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 3: the local golf community and have rallied and saved the

693
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 3: golf course. So over the last you know, almost a decade,

694
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 3: the course has been involved in legal battles and thankfully,

695
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 3: due to their great work, we've we've kind of we

696
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: keep winning each of those legal battles to preserve to

697
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 3: save the golf course. And then you know, our dream

698
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 3: is to to be able to restore that and we're

699
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 3: actively working towards that, and I think we'll we'll get there.

700
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 3: It's it's a it's a long process. Like like you

701
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 3: talked about, you know, governments aren't easy. It's a it's

702
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 3: a site that does have challenges in terms of you know,

703
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 3: there's a number of different government agencies that have some

704
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 3: kind of kind of jurisdiction on the property. So navigating

705
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 3: those those challenges or constraints are are difficult. But I

706
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 3: think there's a great chance that in the near future

707
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 3: we'll get to put some of that McKenzie back or

708
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 3: unpolish some of the mackenzie that's been defted over over

709
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 3: the years, and I think that will be something that

710
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 3: hopefully the golf world will embrace. I know they already

711
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 3: have to save the golf course. But hopefully they'll get

712
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 3: a chance to come out and see something special in

713
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 3: the years to come.

714
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something that I've been paying attention to. And

715
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: you always, you always want to see these courses. I

716
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: have one in Chicago is Downers Grove Golf Club, which

717
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: is nine hole course. But it's the original site of

718
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: Chicago Golf Club and over the years, the Park District,

719
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, since they took ownership of it, they've altered

720
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: the course. They built a driving range and and now

721
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: there's like there's four original holes. But I always think about, like, man,

722
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: how cool would this thing to be be to get

723
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: back to what it was and have a nine hole

724
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: you know Cebe McDonald course. That was his first design

725
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: ever in America.

726
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's crazy, very Yeah, you know, I think it

727
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 5: sounds like a worthy cause to me. I mean it,

728
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 5: you know, it's unfortunately we're at a stage where where

729
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 5: stuff gets in the way, and so it is a challenge.

730
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 5: And so that's why people like Richard Bow and I'm

731
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,919
Speaker 5: sure there are others in Chicago and across the rest

732
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 5: of the country that need to kind of step up

733
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 5: and fight and save the day.

734
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 3: And because this stuff is worth fighting for. It is

735
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 3: worth saving, you know, Shark Park as much as we're

736
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 3: all interested in it. From the the golf course standpoint

737
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 3: and the McKenny standpoint, it represents all that you would

738
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 3: want about what a golf course should be to a community.

739
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 3: You go out there today and you'll see people, you know, ages,

740
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 3: you know, five to ninety, You'll see you know, twenty

741
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,959
Speaker 3: different ethnicities out there, and they're all you know, most

742
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: of the people are out there walking. It just represents

743
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 3: what the game is all about. And so those places

744
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 3: are certainly worth we're fighting for and doing everything in

745
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 3: our power to save and when we have a chance

746
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 3: to restore them.

747
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the the same same thing out there.

748
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: You know, it's a pact shot sheet and that's part

749
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: part of the reason they they haven't done anything is that,

750
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's a nine hole course that the community

751
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: makes money on. So if it's not if it's not

752
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: broken from a monetary standpoint, in their eyes, why do anything.

753
00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I think you know, it's kind of the bleeding,

754
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 3: the slow down.

755
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 4: Right, if you've got.

756
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 3: A major open wound in the middle of your forehead, then.

757
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 4: You get to go to the emergency room. But if

758
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 4: you've got a.

759
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 3: Internal bleeding that you can't see, sometimes you don't see

760
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 3: it until it's too late.

761
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: That's a great and great analogy. I might have to

762
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 2: use that.

763
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: I've been talking about going to park district meetings and

764
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: just you know, just trolling the park district for for

765
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: a while. Now I might have to start doing that

766
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: in the winter.

767
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 3: There you go.

768
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: So I want to you uh talk a little bit.

769
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: You know, we've gotten on the subject of Golden Age

770
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 1: architecture and I know your your kind of design principles

771
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: are you know, throw back to the Golden Age. Who

772
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: would you say are your biggest influences from the standpoint

773
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 1: of architects.

774
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, great question. You know, I think again that you know,

775
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 3: obviously mackenzie jumps to mind in terms of this exposure

776
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 3: is over time, I'm learning to appreciate more and more

777
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 3: loss from a routing standpoint, appreciate some of those routings.

778
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 3: But again it's it's it's tough to say, you know,

779
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 3: I love all the kind of McDonald and Rayner stuff.

780
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 3: It's interesting to see particularly where they would go out

781
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 3: of their way to you know, if they had an

782
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 3: idea they if they had to move a bunch of

783
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 3: dirt to make it happen, they'd go for it type

784
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 3: of thing. So that that that's always interesting. I think

785
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 3: again it's just site specific, right, So those principles that

786
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 3: in California get exposed lots of George Thomas. So they're

787
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 3: they're all unique and interesting and great and have different

788
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 3: backgrounds to them. And and but you know, the overriding

789
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 3: thing that I've kind of taken away from all of

790
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 3: them was, you know, I personally love the idea of

791
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 3: having golf courses be fun. I love the idea of

792
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 3: golf courses being natural. I love the idea of strategy

793
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 3: and the and the golf ball on the ground and

794
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 3: what happens when the ball's on the ground. So I'm

795
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 3: a huge fan of ground contours having strategic value. And

796
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 3: so I don't, you know, hard hard to say, you

797
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 3: know how each one impacts those those overarching themes, but

798
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 3: they all certainly contribute to it.

799
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: So outside of say Mackenzie, if you could bring if

800
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: you could bring one Golden Age architect back and have

801
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: like kind of dinner with them and have them consult on,

802
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: say your your next project, you do which one would

803
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: you bring.

804
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 3: Back a great question the cop out answer, but as

805
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 3: actually probably accurate would be it would depend on what

806
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 3: the project was. Yeah, there's probably a different answer depending

807
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 3: on what the site was and what the who the

808
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 3: client was, So it probably depends. And then you got

809
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 3: to get into the question of if it's if it's

810
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 3: just a dinner are you are you picking somebody based

811
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 3: on on personality and the stories that you're gonna be told,

812
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 3: so you know, if you didn't have to pick up

813
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 3: the bill, it might be killing half. Yeah, I was

814
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 3: going to say, that's.

815
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: A known, a known socialite, you know, interesting guy and

816
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: uh a great architect. It's amazing to me with the

817
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: us am at Riviera, how the I think the Philly

818
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: the Philly Golf School and architecture, you know, for those

819
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: that aren't aren't familiar with it, I have an article

820
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: on my site, but this whole affiliate golf school is incredible.

821
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: With George Thomas, A. W.

822
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: Tilling, Hast, William Flynn, you know, then you have Hugh Wilson,

823
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 1: Crump and all these guys. You look at their work

824
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 1: and they've they've they've started because of you know, them

825
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: getting their ass whooped in championship golf and championship amateur golf.

826
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: And now you look back and they arguably have the

827
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 1: majority of the timeless classic championship golf sites all came

828
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: from that those three guys, there are five guys.

829
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 3: Pretty awesome, Yeah, pretty awesome, no doubt about it. And

830
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 3: and and to think back, you know, you know, talking

831
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 3: to you know, spending a night talking to Walter Travis

832
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 3: and and talking golf architecture and then talking about playing

833
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,280
Speaker 3: playing career. You know, so those those would be uh

834
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 3: interesting conversations to have. Yeah, you know, all sorts of

835
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: all sorts of great day. It would be awfully fun

836
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 3: to go back in time and have a have a

837
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 3: roundtable or like you say, have a good dinner.

838
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: It's something I wondered because, like those guys like openly collaborated,

839
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of it. You know, one

840
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: of the things that's changed is that it wasn't as

841
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: a business then as it is now. But that open collaboration,

842
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: free flow of ideas led to such great work.

843
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 2: And I ever wonder if that will happen again.

844
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 1: I think it might be you know a little bit

845
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 1: with you know how Core and Crenshaw with their all

846
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: their associates, you know, spawning out and dope with his

847
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: intern program.

848
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 2: But I always wonder, you.

849
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: Know, do you do you ever have peers that you

850
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: go to with, you know, asking.

851
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: Him questions and bouncing ideas off of them.

852
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's a great point that you bring out.

853
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 3: And I think to me, that's one of the exciting

854
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 3: things about this time and history. You know, and we

855
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 3: touched on earlier that we have a little bit of

856
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 3: a dichotomy going on, and that there's a number of

857
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 3: projects that you know, might be done for a housing

858
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 3: development or fill hotel rooms and architecturally may not be

859
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 3: very interesting, but then you've got a number of other

860
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 3: projects that are very interesting and are on unique sites

861
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 3: and sometimes very special pieces of land. And and you know,

862
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 3: when you think about the architecture world, yeah, you've got

863
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 3: an interesting range of people in the industry, different ages

864
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 3: and different backgrounds and coming from different family trees, if

865
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 3: you will, of architecture. And so yeah, I've been very

866
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 3: fortunate to meet a number of different architects, old and young,

867
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 3: and try to keep in touch and bounce ideas and

868
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 3: have chatted with different people about collaborating and doing different things.

869
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 3: And I think those are things that hopefully, I think

870
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 3: there's been a little bit of that, and you touched

871
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 3: on kind of the you know, whereas the collaboration in

872
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 3: the early nineteen hundreds might have been the way we

873
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 3: read about it now, you know, might.

874
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 4: Have been these guys.

875
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 3: But for anybody listening who hasn't been involved in a

876
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 3: golf project, there is an endless amount of collaboration, you know,

877
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 3: on every project, whether it's the guy whose name you

878
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 3: read in the magazine, but there are people, you know,

879
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 3: the people who are shaping the golf course are involved,

880
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 3: and there's regular on site debates and conversations, and you know,

881
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 3: a good idea can come from anywhere, whether it's the

882
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 3: client or the guy digging the trench. You know, a

883
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 3: good idea can come from everywhere anywhere. There is a

884
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 3: lot of collaboration on every project. But I think you

885
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 3: will probably see more, you know, they'll probably be one

886
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 3: off projects, but you'll see more collaboration between people in

887
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 3: the industry. And that's something that I'm uh, I like

888
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 3: the idea of myself.

889
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a it would be interesting to

890
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: see if you did a modern day Pine Valley type

891
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: project where you get five guys and you collaborate. Obviously

892
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 1: there has to be one person that's the boss. But

893
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, you can't, you can't, and there has

894
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: to be a unified vision. But like you know, the

895
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: idea of like Pine Valley where like there, you know,

896
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: the Hell's half Acre Hole, for example, is is like

897
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: notoriously a tilling Hals golf hole. And you know, you

898
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 1: see different things in the same thing with Marion where

899
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: there's so much flint in it that it could be

900
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: considered a Flynn golf course. That you know, these these

901
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,879
Speaker 1: these golf courses became you know, they're the greatest golf

902
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: courses in the world, but you know they were collaborated

903
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: on and the spread of ideas. So I think we've

904
00:51:57,880 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: we've talked about this pipe dream idea.

905
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 2: I have enough.

906
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,479
Speaker 1: I'd love to talk a little bit about Chambers Bay,

907
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: kind of your big project and you did it. You

908
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: were the project architect on it during your time at

909
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: rt J two, And it had the US Open, It's

910
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: had the US AM. Most recently it had the Pacific

911
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: Coast AM. I you know, from all accounts, I mean,

912
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: it's just a beloved golf course by people that play it,

913
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 1: and also the the players.

914
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 2: You know, I'll rave about it.

915
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: How you know, like and the only complaint always comes

916
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,879
Speaker 1: back to be, you know, the greens and the putting surfaces.

917
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: How frustrating is it to have a course that is

918
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: universally loved. But like the two things that you know,

919
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: the US Open complained about was spectating and the green surfaces,

920
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 1: which are really out of the architect's control.

921
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, lots two on there. I'll start by saying, just

922
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 3: talk about kind of being universally loved, and I think

923
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 3: that to be to be fair, I guess I would

924
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 3: I would say that it's probably not universally loved. I

925
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 3: know a number of the players who competed in the

926
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 3: Amateur in the Open either didn't like it or hated it,

927
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 3: and that was okay. If you look back in history,

928
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 3: I would imagine that most special golf courses are somewhat polarizing,

929
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,720
Speaker 3: particularly early on, And so that's okay.

930
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 2: Well it's different.

931
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: Also, you know, people always have like a reaction to.

932
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 2: It being different.

933
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 1: You know, there's with there's so much about angles and

934
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: different ways you can play the course, so you know, naturally,

935
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 1: like these guys play the same style golf course almost

936
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 1: week out, narrow fairways, high rough, you know, is what

937
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: I call robot golf, and Chambers definitely wasn't that style

938
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: of golf.

939
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 3: Absolutely and that was by design for me personally. When

940
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 3: you think about championship golf. And again now we're just

941
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 3: talking about the one percent, not everybody else, but but

942
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 3: to me, championship golf is way way too much about

943
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 3: execution and not enough about thought and strategy and uh

944
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 3: and creativity. And so to your point, you know, weekend

945
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 3: week out on the PGA Tour, it's you know, very

946
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 3: little thinking is required. Right hit between the trees, hit

947
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 3: it between the bunkers, you know, avoid the pond, and

948
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 3: just not a lot of thinking. And so Chambers, Uh.

949
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 3: You know, obviously at the municipal course, it's open to everybody,

950
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 3: but there always was the desire and intention to to

951
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 3: attract and host major championships. And one of the one

952
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: of my great hopes for the project would be that

953
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 3: the golf course would actually require golfers to think. And

954
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 3: you know, to your point earlier about technology and how

955
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 3: it's changed a little bit of the game in terms

956
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 3: of shot making, you know, the goal at the Chambers

957
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 3: was you know, through the ground countours to ask players

958
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 3: to hit the ball high and hit it low, and

959
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 3: you know, move the ball left to right, and move

960
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 3: it right to left, and so, you know, the greatest

961
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 3: joy I took out of both of those championships was

962
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 3: to watch the best players in the game stand in

963
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 3: the middle of the fairway and talk to their caddy

964
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 3: and try to figure out how best to get the

965
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 3: ball close to the hole, knowing that they had four

966
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 3: or five different ways to do it, but if they

967
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 3: were smart enough, they could actually figure out that one

968
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 3: was would serve them far better than the others. So

969
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 3: for me, you know, in twenty ten, watching Peter Euline

970
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 3: stand in the fairway and talk to those caddy about, yeah,

971
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 3: I'm two hundred yards out, but do I want to

972
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 3: fly at one eighty with a draw into that slope

973
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 3: and let it release, or do I want to fly

974
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 3: a one ninety and hit it high and landed at

975
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 3: the toe of that slope with with a faide to

976
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 3: try and hold it. Those were the things that made me,

977
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 3: uh most excited. So from that standpoint, yeah, absolutely, I

978
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 3: think you know, I was thrilled to death with how

979
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 3: the amateur and the Open unfolded, you know, the the

980
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 3: unfortunate thing about the Open in particular, and you know,

981
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 3: the first year of Fox and their coverage and and

982
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 3: unfortunately one of the storylines became the dreams and obviously

983
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 3: the the issues with some of the poland that had

984
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 3: popped up, and and and it was it was very

985
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 3: sad because you know, the people who pour their heart

986
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 3: and soul into maintaining the golf course are friends of

987
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 3: mine and very very talented people, and and and they

988
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 3: know what they're doing. And there was just kind of

989
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 3: a big confluence of whether it was weather or championship

990
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 3: prep or all these different things kind of kind of

991
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 3: led to something and then it became a big storyline

992
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 3: that took away from so many of the other great

993
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 3: things about the event, so that that was really the

994
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 3: only negative. But I think over the long haul, those

995
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 3: things will get worked out and everything will everything will

996
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 3: will be fine in the future. And when we first

997
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 3: built the project, we were first getting started building it. You know,

998
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 3: John Landenberg, who was the county executive and the project

999
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 3: vision area, he made it clear in the very first

1000
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 3: meeting that you know, this is one hundred year project.

1001
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 3: We're creating something here that's going to be here for

1002
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:52,439
Speaker 3: multiple generations, and our goal is to get it right

1003
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 3: for them and to take the long view and to

1004
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 3: do everything in our power to make sure that you know,

1005
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 3: future generation have a place to enjoy. And you know,

1006
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 3: that's you know, from a non championship golf standpoint, that's

1007
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 3: what makes Chambers Base so special is that every day

1008
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 3: there are hundreds, if not thousands of people that go

1009
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 3: walk that public trail that is above and weeds through

1010
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 3: the golf course. There's you know, golfers that are our locals,

1011
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 3: and it's attracted golfers from all over the country and

1012
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 3: all over the world, but have a different you know,

1013
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 3: had never heard of Pierce County, Washington before, and now

1014
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 3: all of a sudden they come, and when they come,

1015
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 3: they stay and they spend money and support local businesses

1016
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 3: and things like that. So a lot to be excited

1017
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:39,919
Speaker 3: about there.

1018
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's something that always gets lost, is

1019
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 1: like Chambers Bay is so young and its life is

1020
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: a golf course. And do you think about like especially

1021
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: like Marion. I mean, Marion continued to undergo iterations and

1022
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: changes from their first USM they hosted through all the way.

1023
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: I think it was nineteen sixteen they had their first

1024
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 1: US Am and then you know, the golf course really

1025
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: wasn't complete until nineteen thirty four, and in the meantime

1026
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: they'd hosted six or seven championships during that time, So

1027
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, the idea of like, you know, a small

1028
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: change here and there. I mean, the golf course yielded

1029
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: probably the most exciting US Open in the last decade,

1030
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 1: and I think it gets lost especially with the US

1031
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: Open mentality of the necessity of thick rough and seeing

1032
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 1: guys hack it out. Like the most interesting golf is

1033
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: exactly what you hit on with Peter Eulin talking about

1034
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: it is when you can put doubt and you can

1035
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: put you know, you have to for you're forcing the

1036
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 1: greatest players in the world to think about the type

1037
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 1: of shot they're playing in. There is just the best

1038
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 1: kind of golf where you start to see the shot

1039
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 1: making come to the forefront and you see the best

1040
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: players in the world having to hit different styles of

1041
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: golf shots that you don't see week in week out.

1042
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, to my point, those were the things we're excited about.

1043
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 3: I mean, there's so many great takeaways. I mean, you

1044
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 3: think about it, you know, from a from a support standpoint,

1045
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 3: when when the Open was at Chambers, well, when the

1046
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 3: Amateur was at Chambers, my understanding everything I've been told

1047
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 3: is that they had you know, some of the best

1048
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 3: crowds ever and some of the best volunteer sign up

1049
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 3: ever for an amateur. For the Open, the volunteer you

1050
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 3: know sign up was their quickest ever fill up. They

1051
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 3: sold more merchandise than they'd ever sold before or in

1052
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 3: in you know, many a decade or whatever. You know,

1053
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 3: it did well on TV. And then from a pure

1054
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 3: playing standpoint, you think about the amateur, you had the

1055
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 3: number one amter in the world beat the number two

1056
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 3: ameter in the world at the time for your finale.

1057
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 3: When you think about the Open, the number one, you know,

1058
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 3: the best player in the world at the time. One championship.

1059
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 3: The leader board, if you look look back, was probably

1060
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 3: the best leader board you've had in twenty five years.

1061
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 3: And certainly the back nine and the Sunday had you know,

1062
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 3: probably the best leader boards of anything in the lands

1063
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 3: twenty five years. So there's a lot of things to

1064
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 3: be excited about and positive takeaways, and clearly there were

1065
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 3: things that you'd like to refine and do over you know,

1066
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 3: I think from a spectator standpoint, I was there all week,

1067
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 3: and you know, the USGA did a great job leading

1068
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 3: up to the event about sharing with the public that

1069
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 3: this was a little bit different of the US Open

1070
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 3: and that the venue was such that you'd be far

1071
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 3: better served to go to a grand stand and watch

1072
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 3: two or three home from a grand stand as opposed

1073
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 3: to trying to follow a group, you know, for all

1074
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 3: eighteen holes. And that was that was the good part.

1075
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 3: The bad part was the public listened to them, and

1076
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 3: the public went to the grand stands, and by nine

1077
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 3: o'clock all the grand stands were full. So then you

1078
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 3: then all of a sudden you had a bunch of

1079
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 3: traffic challenges with people walking around. But that's something that

1080
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 3: you can learn from. You can you can modify a

1081
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 3: roping plan. You can add more grand stands, you know,

1082
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 3: those are those are things that could be worked around. So,

1083
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 3: you know, it was it certainly was for me, you know,

1084
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 3: as a young guy, you know who who loves links golf,

1085
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 3: who loves municipal golf, who loves championship golf, whose dream

1086
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 3: in high school was to design a US Open golf

1087
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 3: course to be able to be part of that, and

1088
01:02:54,800 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 3: watch it from the first first day on site, interviewing,

1089
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 3: trying to get the job, and to go all the

1090
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 3: way through building the golf course and then having an

1091
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 3: open announcement. Then watch it go all the way through.

1092
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 3: It's been a pretty interesting journey.

1093
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's got to be really cool.

1094
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 1: I I envy the ability for you guys to just

1095
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 1: kind of watch your pro you know, have your name

1096
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 1: on something and watch it and watch people's reactions and

1097
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 1: then you know, to get to see the whole world reacted.

1098
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's got to be pretty cool. I

1099
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: wanted to get to We've got a lot of reader

1100
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: and our listener questions from Twitter, and I wanted to

1101
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 1: get to.

1102
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 2: Some of those.

1103
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 1: Just I'm not sure if you've ever listened to a pod,

1104
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: but we have an overrated underrated segment. So they'll be

1105
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,240
Speaker 1: peppered in there and you just you know, you can

1106
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: feel free to expand.

1107
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 2: But you know, the general.

1108
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: Consist it just say, you know, overrated or underrated on

1109
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: different topics, so those will be sprinkled in here. We'll

1110
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: start out with a overrated underrated from Barry Elevated Greens

1111
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: in False.

1112
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 3: Fronts, Uh, are those two separate things. Yeah, underrated? I

1113
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 3: like I like a good false front, particularly on an

1114
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:20,439
Speaker 3: uphill hole.

1115
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 4: Uh.

1116
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 3: Elevated greens, I'll go overrated. You know, I love golf

1117
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 3: where the ground game is an option, and so if

1118
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 3: you've got a green that's more at grade, the aerial

1119
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,919
Speaker 3: option is still always there, but but the ground game

1120
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 3: is something that I just I just love. So elevated

1121
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:47,640
Speaker 3: greens have their place, but I'm balanced, I have to say, uh.

1122
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 2: Overrated, mm hmm.

1123
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 1: I feel like that's an easy way to make a

1124
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 1: lot of golf courses more playable is just to lessen

1125
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 1: the grade of that front of the green that because

1126
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 1: then you know, more people can run the ball into them.

1127
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 3: Absolutely so again, go look at most golf courses between

1128
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty and ninety five, and almost all of them

1129
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 3: the green is two to three feet above the elevations

1130
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 3: the fruway. It just it just makes life so difficult

1131
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 3: for mid to high handicappers who golf is difficult enough

1132
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 3: for that group, takes so much fun and strategy out

1133
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 3: of it.

1134
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 1: It has zero effect on the one percent or the

1135
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,440
Speaker 1: ten percent we always we've been talking about.

1136
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,000
Speaker 3: Well, in some respects it actually makes it easier for

1137
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 3: him because I know they're just grabbing whatever club is

1138
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 3: going to fly to the middle of the green. You know,

1139
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 3: I don't know about you, but for me, if I

1140
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 3: see an open entrance green, I start thinking about running

1141
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 3: it in, even if I'm in a you know, if

1142
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 3: I'm back in the Midwest and the conditions aren't firm

1143
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 3: and fast, if it's playing soft, even if it's playing

1144
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 3: soft and there's an open entrance, just my eye and

1145
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 3: my tendency to like ball on the ground gets me

1146
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 3: thinking about going on the ground, even if it's not

1147
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 3: the right play due to conditions. So uh, in some respects,

1148
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 3: the little alvy of green might make life easier for

1149
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 3: the low handed gapper.

1150
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially I think also especially around the green, because

1151
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 1: you know, you the lob wedge has become such a

1152
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:26,919
Speaker 1: weapon for shots around the green. And when it's when

1153
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 1: it's perched up, you don't even think about You just

1154
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: grab the lob weedge and you hit the shot. But

1155
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 1: when it's when it's flat, you all of a sudden

1156
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 1: your mind starts to race and you start thinking about

1157
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 1: different things.

1158
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 2: You could do.

1159
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 1: Do I land this, you know five feet short, and

1160
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 1: you know kind of hit a little checker. You know,

1161
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 1: they are all kinds of things. It's just more options

1162
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 1: are good. I think people just are tired of hearing

1163
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 1: me say that. But Barry also had another question that is,

1164
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 1: I think a really good one. He's a he's a

1165
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 1: Hawaii guy, so he's he's very interested in wind and

1166
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 1: how it plays a factor in design. You know, the

1167
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: prevailing trade winds affects all courses in Hawaii. But then uh,

1168
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:16,080
Speaker 1: linksy options aren't always provided for the most part. I mean,

1169
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:18,479
Speaker 1: there's a lot of frustrate elevated greens that are tough

1170
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 1: to access.

1171
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 2: With only one shot option. How do you approach prevailing winds?

1172
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 3: So that's that's a great question. And uh and wind

1173
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:33,479
Speaker 3: really is It's one of the wonderful elements of the game.

1174
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 3: I think it's it's very hard to paint with a

1175
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 3: broad brush. Again, when it comes to golf and golf courses,

1176
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 3: everything is site specific. So you know, for example, if

1177
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 3: you're in Hawaii or in a windy place and you're

1178
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 3: building a new golf course and you have a lot

1179
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 3: of room, then the then the prevailing wind can impact

1180
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:02,160
Speaker 3: your actual routing of the golf course and how you

1181
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:07,400
Speaker 3: lay out the holes. Oftentimes that's not the case. You

1182
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:11,240
Speaker 3: might have a parcel that's not as big, and where

1183
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 3: you route the holes is more a byproduct of the

1184
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 3: amount of space that you have, right, and you need

1185
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:20,600
Speaker 3: to you need to fit them in, uh, fit the

1186
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 3: puzzle pieces in. But then you start to think about

1187
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 3: the wind on a on the individual design of the hole,

1188
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 3: if you will, uh, right, and and maybe where hazards

1189
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 3: are placed. Or to our discussion earlier, whether or not

1190
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 3: the green is open entrance in at grade or or

1191
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 3: elevated or not so. Uh, it's all very very site specific.

1192
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 3: If you do, if you're fortunate enough to have an

1193
01:08:47,840 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 3: open site in a windy area and and uh you know,

1194
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 3: if you have the triple whammy of having a sandy soil, uh,

1195
01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 3: then the then the prevailing wind can can play an

1196
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 3: even bigger role. And and actually laying out the course otherwise,

1197
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 3: if you don't have all those luxuries are probably is

1198
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 3: a bigger impact on the detailed design of the wholes

1199
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 3: and the features.

1200
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:11,879
Speaker 2: That's a that's a great answer.

1201
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:18,719
Speaker 1: Here's some with you being a Wisconsin native, We've got

1202
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 1: some uh, you know, questions about the Badger state.

1203
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,599
Speaker 3: Two weeks, two weeks from the day, two years from

1204
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:27,520
Speaker 3: to day two weeks.

1205
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: So with the Brent Wagner wants to know what course

1206
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin would you most want to restore or redesign.

1207
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:48,320
Speaker 3: Uh, well, yeah, that's a great question. So in terms

1208
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 3: of redesign, that's probably not politically correct.

1209
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll save restore.

1210
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:55,200
Speaker 4: We'll say restore.

1211
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 3: So there's there's some there's some neat ones out there,

1212
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 3: you know. Uh, there's probably a couple in Milwaukee that

1213
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 3: probably a couple of private clubs in Milwaukee that probably

1214
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 3: would uh fit that bill. There's there's some underrated uh

1215
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 3: kind of hidden gym golf courses uh uh that that

1216
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:18,200
Speaker 3: are kind of neat. I our family spend a little

1217
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:21,639
Speaker 3: bit of time up north. There's a nine hole club,

1218
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 3: Ryan Lander Country Club that's pretty neat. Uh. I think

1219
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 3: I haven't played there in forever. But there's a course

1220
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:31,680
Speaker 3: in the southeast that's uh, I think kind of more

1221
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 3: of a mompo operation. Spring Valley that's oh yeah, got

1222
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 3: got some pretty cool stuff going on that would be

1223
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 3: great to peel back the layers and expose some of

1224
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 3: that stuff. There's yeah, yeah, and uh, you know, so

1225
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 3: it's a great time of golf in Wisconsin. Wisconsin's becoming

1226
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 3: a hotbed for golf. So I'd love the opportunity to

1227
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 3: to get back and do some stuff there. I was

1228
01:10:57,240 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 3: fortunate enough we did a Readers of Century World that

1229
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 3: was very, very satisfying and great client and very proud

1230
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:09,680
Speaker 3: of what we've done up there. But yeah, I love

1231
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 3: the opportunity to get back and uh and work in

1232
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:13,160
Speaker 3: the Bedro state.

1233
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love to. I think there's an Ozaki Country

1234
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 1: Club could be so so, so good if they they

1235
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 1: got rid of some trees, and I mean that place

1236
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 1: has some some really cool features.

1237
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 3: Absolutely and at it.

1238
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:31,560
Speaker 2: Have you have you ever played Eagle Springs.

1239
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:35,120
Speaker 3: Eagle Springs, I don't know that I have.

1240
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:38,799
Speaker 1: Oh man, you got to get Well, it's the oldest

1241
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 1: course in Wisconsin.

1242
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 3: And where where exactly it's in?

1243
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:46,720
Speaker 1: I want to say it's relatively close to two.

1244
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 2: I played it years ago. Let me see where it is.

1245
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:57,599
Speaker 1: Uh, it's in but it's got some just unbelievable green

1246
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:01,080
Speaker 1: complexes and it's you know, it's the oldest course in Wisconsin.

1247
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 2: It's in Eagle, Wisconsin. So in let's see what is it.

1248
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:07,680
Speaker 4: It's in.

1249
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 2: Waukesha, I think county.

1250
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,799
Speaker 3: Oh okay, yeah, so it's Milwaukee suburbs.

1251
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but nine whole course. And I mean, just

1252
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 1: if they've got this great volcano green and just some

1253
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:27,519
Speaker 1: unbelievable dream complexes, It's like that place could be really

1254
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:31,439
Speaker 1: really good and you know, you could go play there

1255
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:35,760
Speaker 1: for I think it's like fifteen bucks in Walk let's see,

1256
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 1: and it's a great little course. It's yeah, it's a

1257
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:45,400
Speaker 1: summer weekend rate is walking is eighteen seventy five, So

1258
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:47,360
Speaker 1: very nice, pretty good.

1259
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean Wisconsin's Wisconsin's getting a lot of

1260
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:56,280
Speaker 3: puk for all the big, fancy, fancy places, but yeah,

1261
01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 3: restoring some of the smaller gems would be a good

1262
01:12:58,880 --> 01:12:59,280
Speaker 3: thing too.

1263
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 2: I like this question.

1264
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 1: H HPS asked it for every pod.

1265
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 2: We don't get to it on every Architecture pod.

1266
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: But if you're playing, if you could play one place

1267
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 1: on a Sunday afternoon with a Sunday bag, what what

1268
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 1: course are you going to play?

1269
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a that's a tough one. There's there's so

1270
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 3: many to choose from.

1271
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 4: You know.

1272
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:29,919
Speaker 3: I've been lucky enough to go out to Prairie Dunes

1273
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:32,840
Speaker 3: a few times, and that's a that's a place. I

1274
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:35,200
Speaker 3: would love to be out there with a Sunday bag

1275
01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:38,799
Speaker 3: on a Sunday afternoon. That's pretty that's a pretty special place.

1276
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:46,559
Speaker 3: But you know, I mean, uh the uh yeah, I'll

1277
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 3: just I'll stick with prairie dunes. But just know that

1278
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 3: there's a dozen enough of them. That's Are you know

1279
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:54,719
Speaker 3: anything that's a good a good easy walk that has

1280
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:58,759
Speaker 3: excitement and strategy and interest on a happy camper.

1281
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 1: Mm yeah, there's that's a tough question. I mean there,

1282
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 1: I don't think there's a wrong answer if you I

1283
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,880
Speaker 1: mean anywhere. It's pretty nice to do that, especially if

1284
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 1: there's nobody around.

1285
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:14,639
Speaker 3: You can play well if there's nobody around. I don't

1286
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:16,599
Speaker 3: know if you're like me, if you're out there by yourself,

1287
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 3: ill you know you're playing. I'll hit a shot, you know,

1288
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 3: you'll hit your approach shut into a green if you

1289
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 3: don't like how you hit the first one, and you

1290
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:25,519
Speaker 3: drop another one and hit another one, and then you

1291
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:27,680
Speaker 3: get up to the green. And once you get up

1292
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:29,599
Speaker 3: to the green, then you may or may not, you know,

1293
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:31,559
Speaker 3: putt the ball you originally hit. But you must just

1294
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 3: start seeing different shots to get hit and drop five

1295
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:37,600
Speaker 3: or six balls around the green. If you're going to

1296
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:41,559
Speaker 3: do that, then I'll then I'll stick with play dunes

1297
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 3: is a fun place to tip and putt.

1298
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:46,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's one of my favorite things to do when

1299
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,439
Speaker 1: I play by myself is I just throw five balls

1300
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:51,680
Speaker 1: into different spots around the green and try and get

1301
01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:52,719
Speaker 1: all five up and down.

1302
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:55,640
Speaker 2: It's it's it's a fun way. I recommend it. It's

1303
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 2: great practice too, all right.

1304
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 1: So Katie w wants to know what's the best way

1305
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:07,160
Speaker 1: for an individual to begin getting into architecture.

1306
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:12,599
Speaker 3: Uh, well, I'm sure you've probably touched on this in

1307
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:16,240
Speaker 3: the past. I think there's you know, lots of different

1308
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:21,280
Speaker 3: routes again, tiny industry and uh and small one to

1309
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 3: get into it. But there's a number of good books

1310
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:26,760
Speaker 3: to read. Uh. And then if you're if you're really

1311
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 3: serious about making it a career, I would encourage people

1312
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 3: to get involved in golf construction and golf course maintenance.

1313
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 3: I think both of those things are critical elements to

1314
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:43,559
Speaker 3: have an understanding of and and the exposure of those

1315
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 3: opportunities will be invaluable. So, uh, you know, getting involved

1316
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 3: in golf course maintenance, getting involved in golf construction, and

1317
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:56,400
Speaker 3: then you know there's there's a number of great books

1318
01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 3: on the subject that I'm sure that you probably have

1319
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:01,839
Speaker 3: a listed on your website somewhere.

1320
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:06,080
Speaker 1: It's funny, I did a books article over the winter

1321
01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:07,679
Speaker 1: and I put a ton in there.

1322
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:10,120
Speaker 2: But it's the most asked question I get.

1323
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 1: I get a couple of emails a week and I

1324
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,320
Speaker 1: need to just write them down into a post because

1325
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:17,400
Speaker 1: what I end up doing is I end up applying

1326
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:20,240
Speaker 1: the same way to all these questions, and it's like, God,

1327
01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:23,240
Speaker 1: why don't I just have like a post on the

1328
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:26,760
Speaker 1: site that's like linked right by where somebody the contact

1329
01:16:26,840 --> 01:16:27,519
Speaker 1: us page.

1330
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:31,120
Speaker 2: So there's something I need to do, you know.

1331
01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 3: I think that the thing for people, you know, there's

1332
01:16:35,960 --> 01:16:38,720
Speaker 3: you know, every year anytime, you know, I'm on a

1333
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:40,680
Speaker 3: plane and somebody asked me what you do, and you know,

1334
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 3: oh my god, that's the coolest job in the world.

1335
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:44,880
Speaker 3: I want to do that, you know, And then you

1336
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:47,519
Speaker 3: get others to say, you know, I think the key

1337
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:50,479
Speaker 3: thing for people is to really for young people who

1338
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:53,439
Speaker 3: are interested in golf architecture and want to make a

1339
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:57,120
Speaker 3: career out of it, is to really think long and

1340
01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 3: hard to yourself about what do you want out of

1341
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 3: that career? Are you looking for fame and fortune and

1342
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:08,040
Speaker 3: to be you know, do you read magazines and see

1343
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:11,360
Speaker 3: magazine interviews or people on TV and you want to

1344
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:15,760
Speaker 3: be that person? Or do you want to be a

1345
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:18,759
Speaker 3: part of a team that builds golf courses? Right, because

1346
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:26,120
Speaker 3: there's a number of opportunities for people who want to

1347
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:29,559
Speaker 3: be a part of a team to build and maintain

1348
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 3: golf courses. But you may never you know, be on

1349
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:39,200
Speaker 3: a magazine cover or on TV. And what you think

1350
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:42,040
Speaker 3: you might want when you're eighteen might be drastically different

1351
01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:45,080
Speaker 3: than what you realize you wanted when you're forty. But

1352
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:49,960
Speaker 3: you know, it's certainly you know, like I said earlier,

1353
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 3: I pinch myself every day that I get to peak,

1354
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:54,479
Speaker 3: get to be part of it, and get to be

1355
01:17:54,520 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 3: involved in this. And I think there's anybody who's ever

1356
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:01,559
Speaker 3: been involved in building a golf course, I think would

1357
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 3: say that it's it's a magical process and and and

1358
01:18:05,080 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 3: one that's very rewarding.

1359
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 1: M Yeah, I think it's a lot less glamorous than

1360
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:13,519
Speaker 1: people think, especially at the start of your career.

1361
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think, uh again, if you're if

1362
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:25,000
Speaker 3: you're looking for fame and fortunate, uh, probably not. You know,

1363
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:28,200
Speaker 3: probably better off to go get that business degree and

1364
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:32,559
Speaker 3: go go make your money somewhere else. But uh, if

1365
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 3: if you want to wake up every day and know

1366
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:41,080
Speaker 3: that you're going to get to interact with interesting, passionate people,

1367
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:44,839
Speaker 3: and you get to be a part of uh being

1368
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 3: doing something creative, and you're going to get to build

1369
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:51,639
Speaker 3: something that's going to last for decades and decades where uh,

1370
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 3: where generations of people are going to go make memories

1371
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 3: with their family and friends. Uh, then then uh, then

1372
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:00,759
Speaker 3: it certainly worthy pursuit.

1373
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:09,200
Speaker 1: Mm So what GA Golf Architecture Texas wants to know

1374
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:13,639
Speaker 1: least favorite trend in modern golf course architecture.

1375
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:20,599
Speaker 3: Long listed? Choose from. I don't know the trends. I'll

1376
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:26,680
Speaker 3: just say the the overarching umbrella for me is artificial elements,

1377
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:30,240
Speaker 3: whether it's a man made lake or artificial mounding, or

1378
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:37,320
Speaker 3: concrete cart paths, or flower beds or planted trees, all

1379
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:41,160
Speaker 3: of these things. You know, again we talked earlier about

1380
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:45,559
Speaker 3: kind of making golf unsustainable. All of these things, in

1381
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:49,800
Speaker 3: my mind tracked from golf rather than add to it.

1382
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 2: I would agree with almost all that I think.

1383
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:58,400
Speaker 3: I hate Roff. I'm on a mission, personal mission to

1384
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 3: eliminate rough from the game ago. I'd be happy to

1385
01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:05,160
Speaker 3: eliminate par te blocks. We get rid of t blocks

1386
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:08,080
Speaker 3: while we're at it, all sorts of stuff to give rid.

1387
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:11,040
Speaker 2: Of around the greens. Rough.

1388
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:15,640
Speaker 1: All it does is it diminishes skill and brings you know,

1389
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:21,520
Speaker 1: the great short games closer to the bad short games.

1390
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly. Take You know, when I spent the last

1391
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:29,720
Speaker 3: few years working on a project in southern California at

1392
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:33,920
Speaker 3: Santa Ana Country Club. And so the golf course that

1393
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:37,560
Speaker 3: was there before we did our big project was essentially

1394
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 3: at seventies or eighties golf course and every single green

1395
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 3: complex you know, bunker, short, left, short, right, The green

1396
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 3: was all the same size and shape and surrounded by rough,

1397
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:52,200
Speaker 3: and all the greens were elevated three feet right. And

1398
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:58,599
Speaker 3: so you know, in going through the process and talking about,

1399
01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:01,080
Speaker 3: you know, what could be, we were trying to do

1400
01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:05,200
Speaker 3: some member education on the courses there. And you know,

1401
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:08,200
Speaker 3: most members of a club, you play your course, and

1402
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:10,000
Speaker 3: you play there with your friends. It's what you know

1403
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:12,640
Speaker 3: and you love, right, But when you really start to

1404
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:16,479
Speaker 3: study golf courses, you can get a feel for a boy,

1405
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:19,400
Speaker 3: I'm hitting the same shot over and over and over again.

1406
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 3: And you know everything, if you went twenty yards around

1407
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 3: every single green at that golf course and probably the

1408
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:29,200
Speaker 3: vast majority of other golf courses from that time period,

1409
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:33,200
Speaker 3: everything within twenty yards is the same shot. It's a sandwich,

1410
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:35,560
Speaker 3: and it's either a lob shot out of rough or

1411
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:38,840
Speaker 3: a lob shot out of a bucker. And there's you know,

1412
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:42,280
Speaker 3: that's a very hard shot for a mid to high

1413
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:46,160
Speaker 3: handicapper to execute, and it's not terribly tough for a

1414
01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:53,759
Speaker 3: low handicap to execute. And when you introduced the ground plane,

1415
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:59,479
Speaker 3: and now you've got tighter ground and different undulations and

1416
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 3: things are maintain firm and fast. Now you can play

1417
01:22:03,439 --> 01:22:06,960
Speaker 3: the ball on the ground or in the air. You

1418
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:12,479
Speaker 3: can Uh, those those undulations, whether they're convex or concave,

1419
01:22:12,600 --> 01:22:15,160
Speaker 3: can be can be used. They can become a hazard

1420
01:22:15,320 --> 01:22:19,160
Speaker 3: or a helper. Uh and uh. It just brings out

1421
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:24,640
Speaker 3: so much more in terms of strategy and creativity. And

1422
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:27,800
Speaker 3: and the nice thing is for for a higher handicapper,

1423
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:31,559
Speaker 3: the the options available to them. You know, if you're

1424
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:34,400
Speaker 3: not able to hit that lob shot with a sandwich,

1425
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:38,200
Speaker 3: you can put it and uh and and so I

1426
01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:42,439
Speaker 3: just find that to be something that's that's critically uh important,

1427
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 3: and we hope we see a lot more of There

1428
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:47,559
Speaker 3: has been, uh there's been a trend towards that, at

1429
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:50,280
Speaker 3: least in some circles, and that's something I'd like to

1430
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:51,040
Speaker 3: see more and more of.

1431
01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, So last question, then we'll do a

1432
01:22:57,080 --> 01:23:00,920
Speaker 2: couple over and underags then taken up more.

1433
01:23:00,760 --> 01:23:05,160
Speaker 1: Than enough of your time, Johnny begsos if we've rolled

1434
01:23:05,320 --> 01:23:08,000
Speaker 1: the golf ball back to the original pro v one

1435
01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:10,640
Speaker 1: with that save OLED courses.

1436
01:23:13,439 --> 01:23:17,360
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know that it's a one. You know,

1437
01:23:17,479 --> 01:23:22,519
Speaker 3: certainly addressing the golf ball and possibly addressing clubs together,

1438
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:25,800
Speaker 3: I think is critical. And again this really relates to

1439
01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:30,320
Speaker 3: championship golf. I mean, as much as the advances in

1440
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:36,360
Speaker 3: technology have helped you know, lesser players, you know, lesser

1441
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:39,720
Speaker 3: players don't hit the ball for three hundred yards. It's

1442
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:43,160
Speaker 3: these top one presenters that are flying at three twenty

1443
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:48,479
Speaker 3: and that's the that's the real Crux four Championship golf.

1444
01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:52,840
Speaker 3: So I don't know if it's going back to the

1445
01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 3: pro V one, I don't know the exact right place

1446
01:23:56,240 --> 01:23:58,000
Speaker 3: to go back to, but I know we have to

1447
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:03,040
Speaker 3: have to go back and and and have to have

1448
01:24:03,240 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 3: to get get it under control, and it needed to

1449
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:09,080
Speaker 3: be done a long time ago, and and we're long

1450
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:12,519
Speaker 3: overdue and and when that happens, will be will be

1451
01:24:12,520 --> 01:24:13,120
Speaker 3: better served.

1452
01:24:13,520 --> 01:24:17,360
Speaker 1: M Yeah, I think it's it's something has to happen,

1453
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:20,400
Speaker 1: at least at least on the professional level. I think

1454
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:23,519
Speaker 1: it's good for the like the regular play, but it's

1455
01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:27,120
Speaker 1: I don't I have less fun on the golf course

1456
01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:28,240
Speaker 1: now because of the ball.

1457
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 3: Well, I'm somebody who loves to try different shots, and

1458
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:39,679
Speaker 3: and uh, even though I've maybe executed the shot previously

1459
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:41,680
Speaker 3: in my life, I'm not good enough to execute it

1460
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:44,479
Speaker 3: on demand. But if I see a shot that that

1461
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 3: demands a faide, I want to try and hit a fade. Uh,

1462
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:51,040
Speaker 3: you know. And I love working the ball, you know,

1463
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:54,680
Speaker 3: right the left, left to right high low. Even if

1464
01:24:54,720 --> 01:24:56,439
Speaker 3: I'm not good enough to pull it off, it just

1465
01:24:56,479 --> 01:24:59,640
Speaker 3: makes golf that much more fun. But uh, you know,

1466
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:02,519
Speaker 3: so getting back to some of those days would be

1467
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:05,040
Speaker 3: a good thing. I'll be very curious to see how

1468
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:08,320
Speaker 3: the Masters and Augusta National fits into that equation. I

1469
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:12,800
Speaker 3: think they have a golden opportunity. You know, there isn't

1470
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 3: a player on earth that's going to turn down an

1471
01:25:14,800 --> 01:25:18,040
Speaker 3: invitation to the Masters. And if they said, oh, by

1472
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 3: the way, in twenty eighteen, we're going to be playing

1473
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:24,439
Speaker 3: with the tournament ball. You know, every pro is still

1474
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:25,960
Speaker 3: going to show up and they're going to be excited

1475
01:25:25,960 --> 01:25:29,400
Speaker 3: about it. So they hold I'll be curious to see

1476
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:32,160
Speaker 3: their role and everything, because I think they've got the

1477
01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:35,880
Speaker 3: easiest opportunity to make something happen there.

1478
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:40,720
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, buying that land might be a bad you know,

1479
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:42,080
Speaker 1: they might be adding length.

1480
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:49,240
Speaker 3: You know, sad well that adding length and planting trees

1481
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:53,160
Speaker 3: seems to have been the model over the last thirty years.

1482
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:57,479
Speaker 3: Hopefully they'll be uh the next thirty years might be

1483
01:25:57,520 --> 01:25:58,200
Speaker 3: a little different.

1484
01:25:58,479 --> 01:26:04,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we'll get the final overrated underrateds here, I'm

1485
01:26:04,439 --> 01:26:11,520
Speaker 1: going to say green speeds and stimp readings overrated, underrated, overrated.

1486
01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:16,880
Speaker 3: Certainly, I'm a big fan of greens with I like

1487
01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:20,960
Speaker 3: greens of contour or speeds that match the contour. Let's

1488
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:24,400
Speaker 3: just put that way. A different speed for a different

1489
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:27,720
Speaker 3: set of greens is probably the right answer. But this

1490
01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:32,320
Speaker 3: love affair with thirteen on the STEMP meter just makes

1491
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:35,559
Speaker 3: means that greens need to get flatter and flatter and

1492
01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:39,880
Speaker 3: more boring and more boring. Or if you've got greens

1493
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:41,920
Speaker 3: of contour and you maintain them at thirteen, then they're

1494
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:44,599
Speaker 3: unplayable and they'll fund and people get upset and want

1495
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:45,320
Speaker 3: to change the green.

1496
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:51,680
Speaker 2: So it's like that, was it.

1497
01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:54,800
Speaker 1: Nairn in Scotland has a sign that says, you know,

1498
01:26:55,080 --> 01:26:58,559
Speaker 1: we're on the windiest property on earth or green speeds

1499
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:01,760
Speaker 1: are five to six, so just deal with it, you know.

1500
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:04,800
Speaker 2: It's just there's a lot of factors that go into it.

1501
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:15,160
Speaker 1: And then last one would be, uh, the great hazard

1502
01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:14,519
Speaker 1: as it.

1503
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 2: Under, Yeah, so good, right.

1504
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:23,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I mean golf is supposed to be fun,

1505
01:27:23,920 --> 01:27:25,599
Speaker 3: and what's more fun than a great hazard?

1506
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:28,240
Speaker 1: Right? Oh yeah, I get I get a lot of

1507
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:30,360
Speaker 1: ship because I love it so much, but.

1508
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 2: It's so good.

1509
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:37,479
Speaker 3: Good story, good great stories come from the great hazard. Yeah,

1510
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:42,400
Speaker 3: So the more the more great hazards, the more great stories.

1511
01:27:42,600 --> 01:27:44,800
Speaker 1: It's such a it's a it's a fun design like it.

1512
01:27:44,960 --> 01:27:48,160
Speaker 1: You know, it is a forced carry for the higher handicap,

1513
01:27:48,240 --> 01:27:50,400
Speaker 1: but like one or two of those in a round

1514
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:54,240
Speaker 1: is so good because it's so thrilling for them.

1515
01:27:54,360 --> 01:27:56,479
Speaker 3: Well, I think you did touch on a good point

1516
01:27:56,520 --> 01:27:59,120
Speaker 3: there that it could be overdone. We don't we don't

1517
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:03,000
Speaker 3: need we don't need it on eighteen holes. But uh uh,

1518
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:06,160
Speaker 3: but the idea of it at a point or two

1519
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:10,200
Speaker 3: in the round certainly certainly makes for great fun and

1520
01:28:10,280 --> 01:28:11,360
Speaker 3: great interest in my mind.

1521
01:28:11,600 --> 01:28:15,519
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, hey, thanks for coming on. Look forward to

1522
01:28:15,560 --> 01:28:19,040
Speaker 2: meeting next week at the Renaissance Cup. And uh, who.

1523
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:20,840
Speaker 1: Knows, there might be it might be a late night

1524
01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:22,040
Speaker 1: podcast done there.

1525
01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:23,679
Speaker 2: You got to figure that out.

1526
01:28:25,080 --> 01:28:30,320
Speaker 3: That that could be interesting. Yeah, interesting, Andy, Thank you.

1527
01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:33,439
Speaker 3: I really appreciate the opportunity I tune in, tune in

1528
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:36,960
Speaker 3: regularly and appreciate all that your tongue, and I know

1529
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:39,639
Speaker 3: all the listeners to too, So keep it up, keep

1530
01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:40,679
Speaker 3: it up, keep up the good work.

1531
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, follow Jay on Twitter? What what is it is it?

1532
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:48,920
Speaker 3: At j uh at j blobby all.

1533
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:51,080
Speaker 1: Right, I'm I don't even know my own Twitter handle,

1534
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:56,200
Speaker 1: so don't be offended. All right, have a good one

1535
01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:57,320
Speaker 1: and we'll see you in a couple.

1536
01:28:57,160 --> 01:29:12,559
Speaker 2: Of days named in storms as may at some days