WEBVTT - Why High-Achieving Women Can Still Feel Empty With Brooke Taylor (ex-Google) 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.840 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.680 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.320 Danielle Robe and each week, my guests and I come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.360 of thinking by daring to ask what it, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.480 And who says? So? Come curious, dig deep, and join 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:41.239 the conversation. It's time to question everything. Hello. Hello, I 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:44.040 hope you're having a beautiful day. I really do. If 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.279 you can hear in my voice, I swear I'm having 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:48.560 a great day. I just am a little bit under 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.840 the weather, and I'm going to share why because it's 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:56.320 so interesting. I think I've really been focusing on my 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.760 health recently. And you know, when I turned thirty five 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:02.760 this year, I was like, I want to like really 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.840 push my body and see what I can do. A 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:07.800 few years ago, I know some of you know this, 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.120 that I trained for a triathlon. It was after my 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.319 breakup and I needed like purpose and something to like, 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.479 you know, put all my energy into. And the last 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:19.679 few years I've been so busy that I haven't really 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:21.920 focused on my workouts. I've been just trying to like 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.200 maintain or make it through. And I love having a 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:30.000 physical challenge. So I started working with this trainer, actually 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:34.840 two different trainers, and I got a DEXAS scan this morning. Actually, 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:40.039 it's really interesting. I have a physician, So UCLA in 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.479 Los Angeles has a really interesting program. It's the only 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.399 one in the country. It's like an East West program. 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.560 So every physician meaning like every just doctor that you 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.040 go to for your annual checkup, has graduated from Eastern 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:56.400 medicine school and Western medicine school. So Western medicine meaning 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.600 like you know somewhere in America for instance, like they 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.200 went to Duke or toa Wisconsin or Texas, and then 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:05.840 they also graduated from an Eastern medicine school. And they 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.720 ask you all these interesting questions that you know, you 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:11.840 probably don't get it a normal physician's office, Like they 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:15.480 talk about meditation and how's your stress levels? And what's 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.760 your emotional health? Like what are your relationships like? And 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.760 so on and so forth. And you know that I 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.440 am a full believer in science and vaccines, but I 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.880 love pairing it with Eastern medicine and a little bit 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.120 of the WU so to speak. So I see my 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.240 physician and I told her about my fitness goals and 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.160 she was like, oh, you should get a Dexa scan. 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.200 It's fifty nine dollars at a place called body Speck. 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.359 They have them all over the country, which is interesting, 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.840 and you can see like your bone density and your 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:49.800 body fat percentage, and not only that, it tells you 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:51.640 like where your body fat is and if you have 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.280 visceral fat and so on and so forth. And they 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:58.079 really only recommend a Dexa scan for women who are 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.520 over fifty or sixty because they're looking at your bone density. 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:03.720 But for fifty nine dollars, it's not bad to have 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.520 a baseline and get some information about your body. And 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.120 I was like, oh, this is so cool. So I 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.840 did it this morning, got the results from my scan, 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.239 sent them to the trainer that I'm working with, and 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.360 he was the one that told me why I'm sick 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:23.400 most likely. So that reason is I've noticed that most 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.919 of the times when I start working out really hard, 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:28.680 I love hit workouts. I love lifting weights, and I 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.200 love like sprinting, you know, like a Barry's boot camp 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.600 type thing. I go to this place called Bunda in 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.840 Los Angeles and it's like it's Barry's boot Camp basically, 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.720 but for a staremaster. And so you go StairMaster weights, 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.520 StairMaster weights, and I love it, like it hypes me 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.080 up and it's tough and I see changes in my body, 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.160 Like I know it's good in that sense, but I 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.520 have been pushing it too hard, I think because the 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.960 trainer was like, there's something called the open window hypothesis, 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.000 and it's not really a hypothesis. There's a lot of 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.600 research behind it. And when you are work looking out 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:05.080 really intensely for about three to seventy two hours post exercise, 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:09.560 your immune cells drop significantly. And I have to look 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:11.720 into this more. But I'm thinking, you know, I have 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.000 some stress in my life from work and stuff, and 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.880 my cortisol is already high. Maybe I need to switch 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.120 up my workouts and not be doing so much HIT. 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:21.200 And you know sometimes you have to switch up your 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.280 workouts with your age. So anyways, I'm going to keep 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.520 you posted. I saw this as not turning into a 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.720 wellness podcast, but I just think it's interesting because I'd 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.279 never heard of a DEXA scan before. So if you're interested, 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:33.760 I wanted to share it with you because I think 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:38.400 it's cool just have like baseline information. And yeah, if 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:42.200 you find yourself sick like me after hard workouts, it 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:45.279 may be these hit workouts that are not right for 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.200 us in this moment in time right now. Okay, well, 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:52.440 I hope that you're all not fighting a cold and 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:54.919 are having a great week. And if you are and 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:56.680 you're on the struggle bus like me, at least we're 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.080 in it together. Right. The good news is is that 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:02.680 I recorded this episode before I got six, so you 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.080 don't have to hear me all stuffed up for the 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:12.360 next forty minutes. So let's get into it. We're all 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:16.080 taught that success will set us free, get good grades, 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:20.640 get into the right school, find a prestigious job, grind, climb, 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.440 achieve all that stuff. But our guest today is honing 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.360 in on a very unsettling piece of all of this. 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:33.080 What if when we finally arrive, we still feel unfulfilled. 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:38.159 Today's guest is Brooke Taylor, a former Google executive turned 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.839 career coach and author who argues that many ambitious women 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.680 are unknowingly living with what she calls the success wound, 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.080 the belief that our worth is something we have to earn. 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.800 Brook says, we've essentially worked on ourselves in reverse achievement 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.599 as a strategy for self worth instead of self worth 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:02.359 as the foundation of healthy aga achievement. As it turns out, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.880 these wounds have the potential to upend our lives, which 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.159 is something Brooke knows all about. As she puts it, 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:12.920 her success wound nearly ruined her career at Google and 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.240 devastated her sense of self, and now she's out with 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.520 her new book, Healing the Success Wound, which she hopes 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.000 will help women build themselves back better. 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.640 This is for the people who have hit their bottom 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.280 and are like, please tell me that there is another 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:31.520 way to work. If you're somebody who's wondering, is there 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:33.599 a way for me to work in a way that 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.200 builds me up rather than brace me down? Is there 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.480 a way for me to feel good about my accomplishments 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.320 instead of always doubting if I've done enough? If it 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.520 is enough, then this is who that's for. 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.480 Now, something Brooke talks about in our conversation that really 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:50.679 struck me as this how easy it is to confuse 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.200 achievement with identity and how dangerous that becomes when you're 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.800 self worth depends on constantly performing, and maybe that's why 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.359 so many high achieving people can look successful on the 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.440 outside be quietly falling apart behind the scenes. 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:07.760 This success one shows up everywhere, but it forms this 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:12.160 image that we are constantly comparing ourselves to. And unless 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.600 we consciously rewrite what that image is, our success one's 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.440 always going to pick up the pen and draw a 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:18.200 picture for us. 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.360 So what if the version of success that we've all 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:25.320 been chasing, or even pieces of it, was inherited and 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.280 not chosen. Today we're digging into that question and a 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.440 whole lot more, because everyone deserves to enjoy their success 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.400 and the journey of it, not just use it as 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.760 a coping mechanism. And if achievement has become the thing 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.720 you rely on to feel worthy or productive or enough, 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:46.960 eventually even success starts to feel exhausting. It's time to 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:57.080 question everything. With Brooke Taylor, So, Brook, you worked at 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:01.000 Google and you did it. By twenty four years old, 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.000 you were managing eighty million dollars. Is that true? 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:04.840 Yes? 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.679 To everyone listening, it really sounds like a twenty four 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.600 you had it all? Like, what did you not have? 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:13.400 Did you feel that way? 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.200 You know? A lot of people dread the question what 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.880 do you do for work? I couldn't wait for somebody 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.400 to ask me that. That's the question that I wanted 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.560 to get to as quickly as possible at parties or 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.120 on dates so that I could quickly get to my accolades, 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.960 because that's what I've been kind of groomed and grewed 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.840 to understand is my whole self worth? Because I didn't 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.120 feel good about myself. But at the same time, if 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.199 you tell somebody that you work for Google, they automatically 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:46.080 ascribe things like intelligent, hard working interesting to you. And 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.720 so that was an arena that I felt so comfortable 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:50.280 talking about, was my work life. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.560 I think everything you're saying is going to resonate with 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:57.760 a lot of people listening. And you said groomed, which 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.200 I think is an interesting word. Was that by your parents? 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:05.480 I would say more culture because growing up I grew 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.240 up in Silicon Valley in the nineties before it was 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:10.959 the Silicon Valley of today, but it was still this 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.880 promised land where the nerdiest programmers could come and be 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.680 these rock stars. All they had to do was work really, really, 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.559 really hard. And so I learned growing up that success 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:27.760 comes from hustle and sacrifice. And I also loved movies 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:31.000 and TV shows probably similar to you, like Gilmore Girls 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:34.200 where she wanted to get into Yale, or even like 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.880 the OC where like this image of what like a 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:41.360 successful young person looked like. And even I went to 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:45.080 this prep school where at age eleven, I walked through 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:49.720 the halls and all over the walls. It was like Harvard, 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:54.400 cal Stanford, and so I grew to understand that that's 0:09:54.480 --> 0:10:00.000 what success looked like. High achieving, very articulate, well adjusted, 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.520 did all good things. But inside I never felt like 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.280 I could live up to that ideal. Now, that gold 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.520 star chasing mentality got me far to that job at Google, 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.160 managing eighty million dollars in advertising revenue, at some great 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:18.319 brands like Corona, Modello, TGI Fridays, Ruby Tuesdays, Soul Cycle, Cultureal, 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.480 all these great brands. But on the inside I felt 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:25.079 this emptiness, this void that was undeniable. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:29.000 It's also hard when there's a dissonance between who you're 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.840 presenting as and who you feel like you are on 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:37.240 the inside. When did you start to recognize the emptiness 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.280 and think, hmm, maybe something's off here. 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.320 Pretty early on I remember there was this moment I 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.480 can't remember, maybe I was like twelve or thirteen, and 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:48.680 I was trying to put my shoes on to go 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.480 to school, and I couldn't find my other shoe, and 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:53.720 I was looking all over and I was feeling rushed 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:55.640 out the door, and I remember taking my shoe and 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:58.240 kind of throwing it across the room and saying something like, 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.560 why do I feel so empty inside? And I remember 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.199 saying that, literally, those words came out of my mouth 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.640 when I was thirteen. And I remember saying that again 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.080 in college to a friend of mine. And when you 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.959 say that to somebody, their eyes kind of get big 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.160 and they're like, WHOA, we don't want to go there. 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.920 And so maybe, looking back now, you could call that depression, right, 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.360 But as I got older, it wasn't depression so much 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:29.480 as this longing for something else, longing to feel reconnected 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:34.120 with myself, longing to feel a sense of significance, longing 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:36.440 to know who I am and what I stand for. 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:41.440 And work could never answer that question so much as 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:45.760 I wanted it to. And I think that's the trap 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.040 that so many of us fall into today. For example, 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:51.160 as somebody who's a career coach who talks to people 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:54.120 who are dissatisfied in their careers. Think about the words 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:58.160 people used to talk about their career dissatisfaction. I've lost 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.959 faith in leadership. I no longer believe in the mission. 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.920 I'm looking for my calling, my purpose, my path. I 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:08.080 don't know where it is. Those aren't work words. Those 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.960 are church words, those are religion words, those are spiritual words. 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.240 And so the problem is not in the seeking for 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.160 those things. The problem is the fact that as religion 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.880 has declined in society, we projected onto it those essential 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.280 human needs onto work, expecting it to give us this 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:31.400 sense of community, place, significance, transcendence, purpose, meaning that it 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.160 just never can. And those are biological human needs. We're 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.400 hardwired to search for those things in our lives. So again, 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.320 the issue isn't in the searching. It's the fact that 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:43.719 we're searching for it in all the wrong places. And 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:47.319 that's really what the success wound is is the pain 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:52.839 that comes from mistaking success for self worth, meaning, transcendence 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:53.320 and peace. 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:56.160 I think there are going to be some people listening 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.440 right now saying WHOA. I feel that so deeply, And 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.319 there's also going to be people listening right now who say, 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.600 I don't know. I really like ambition. I feel ambitious. 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.079 So I want everyone listening to know we're going to 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:10.760 get to that, because you actually have a lot of 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.320 thoughts on that. But before we do, there's a part 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:18.000 in your book where you talk about your mom. And 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:20.480 your mom was a great feminist, So I do I 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:22.360 want to say that? And she would tell you you 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.760 can be anything that you want to be, And you 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.599 actually said that. That hurt you in some ways, it 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:30.480 was damaging. Can you explain that? 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.640 Sure? So my mom went to Smith College, alma mater 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.240 of Gloria steinem as well and Betty for Dan, so 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.959 some amazing feminists, and she wanted me to have a 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:42.880 single gender education as well. So I went to this 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.559 amazing girls school and I was raised on this really esteemable, 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.560 wonderful second wave feminist movement idea that I can be 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.160 anything that I want to be in a way that 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.120 my mom or you know, my grandma couldn't, that all 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:57.360 the doors were open for me, that this glass ceiling 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.880 was shattered. What I took that to mean in my 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:05.000 childhood brain is that anything that I could be was 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:14.439 actually a very narrow definition of what I should be high, achieving, accomplished, admirable, enviable, 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.640 that I had to ascend to positions of power traditionally 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.360 occupied by men because no woman before me had And 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.600 again I took this to mean it's not anybody else's fault. 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.600 I took this to mean that unless I was, that 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:30.640 I wasn't living up to my potential, and I was 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:34.200 maybe even letting my ancestors down. And so that created 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.000 within me like a pressure cooker, like a really intense 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.960 pressure cooker, and the belief that if I wasn't the best, 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.680 then I was the worst. I think again, it took 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.160 me really far, and I'm so glad I had that 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.560 idea that I could be anything and do anything. And 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.040 I think to this day I have this optimistic ideal, 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.640 but I think what it created in myself and a 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:57.560 lot of other women our age is this purpose anxiety, 0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:59.800 this oh my gosh, I need to find my thing, 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.920 I need to find my path. Sky's the limit, but 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.760 holy crap, sky's the limit. That means I can do anything, 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:11.960 And an abundance of options actually creates this decision paralysis. 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.000 I think in a lot of our careers where it's 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.160 like should I go left or right. Oh she has 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.680 a cool thing going. Oh they're making money over there, 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:21.560 or AI's a good thing, or should I be doing influencing. 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.080 It's this abundance of options that creates this comparison and 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.080 this analysis paralysis that I think is doing us more 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:30.120 harm than good at this phase of life. 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.320 Mm hmm. I think you're speaking to a lot of 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.520 people's souls right now. Do you feel like in your 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:43.520 house there were implicit messages? Because I ask only I 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.200 think there were explicit messages in my house, and then 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.040 there were implicit messages about ambition, like my parents would say, 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.560 like we get straight a's. So I knew explicitly that 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:58.360 was something that was expected of me, But implicitly they 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:03.120 never talked about, you know, me being valedictorian. There was 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.240 really nothing else that was said, but I felt pressure. 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.800 I knew that they expected excellence. Right, So do you 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.120 think there were implicit messages shared with you? 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.840 I had a lot of explicit and certainly a lot 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.000 of implicit, And as a firstborn daughter who was always 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.280 looking for that approval, I would look for the smile, 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.880 the eyes getting big, the warm hug. So a couple 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.160 that I remember, you know, my dad would drive me 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.840 to school every day for seven years, and I remember 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.320 saying something once like, well, if I'm not going to 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.720 be the best at it, then why bother trying? And 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:38.760 he kind of looked at me to the side and 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.400 smiled really big, and I took that to me and 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.040 as like, that's my girl. Yes, that's something that we 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.040 do together, me and my dad, Like we try really hard, 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.320 and we're ambitious, and if we're not going to be 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:54.480 the best, then we're the worst. And that sense of 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.800 belonging and attachment is something that I craved. Another time 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.760 is my dad also dared me to get straight a's 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:03.400 on my report card. It was the first and the 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.720 last time I ever did that. I worked really hard. 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:10.320 I brought it home and he picked me up and 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:12.959 spun me around and said, I'm so proud of you. 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.399 He didn't say this is expected, he didn't say I 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.600 won't love you unless but he did pick me up 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:20.760 and spin me around. And I've never seen him more proud, 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:25.639 even to this day. So those implicit things can you 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.840 harm as much as the explicit ones too. It's what's 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.160 said and what's unsaid that is constantly being taken in 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:32.880 as children. 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.359 So you write in the book that your success wound, 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.359 which we're going to explain what that is, but that 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.679 your success wound nearly ruined your promising career at Google. 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.040 Was there a specific moment, a meeting, a Sunday night, 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.000 a doctor's visit where you realize that something inside of 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:51.760 you was breaking. 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.720 It was three things that happened in a very short 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.320 period of time. I think the universe, you know, had 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:01.359 thrown pebbles, and now it was throwing bricks, and it 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.440 threw three all at once. And leading up to that time, 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.160 my life kind of looked like this. Monday through Thursday. 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.320 I would work really hard. I'd get to inbox zero, 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.720 I would close the deal, I would create the pitch deck, 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.320 I would do the meeting, and come Friday afternoon, I 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.560 would be so exhausted that I would turn to alcohol 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.159 and partying to numb both the stress but also the 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:27.520 quiet pain underneath of not feeling good enough over the 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.320 last few days, and so I would party. I'd wake 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:34.080 up on Sunday exhausted, demoralized, most likely having woken up 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:37.199 in other places. I shouldn't have been doing things that 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:40.199 didn't align with my character. And so what would I do. 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.840 I'd throw myself back into work in order to prop 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.120 back up my self esteem. So this went on for 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:48.800 six years or so, and it finally came to a 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.560 screeching halt when these three things happened in succession. The 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.320 first is that I was sexually harassed by my direct 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.640 manager at Google, but I didn't want to report it, 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.720 not because I didn't know what was wrong, not because 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.240 there wasn't you know, an HR team that would have 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.480 taken me seriously, but because I was up for promotion 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.520 and I didn't want to rock the boat. I didn't 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:11.920 want to anger or embarrass him. 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.640 I just want to pause because I think what you're 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:20.359 saying is so important. I know I've felt that way. 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.320 This is not sexual harassment. But I was being paid 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.680 sixty thousand dollars less than my male co host in Chicago. 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.720 And there was a writer at the Chicago Tribune who 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.520 was like, when you leave, let's do a story about it. 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:39.199 And I was like, absolutely not. Like when people Google 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.639 search my name, I was not in a place where 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:44.840 I knew I could ever get another job. That's not 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.520 something I want to come up. And I think about 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.760 that a lot now. And I also feel as if 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:56.560 there's a whole aspect here about financial security that doesn't 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.639 get spoken about a lot as it relates to harassment, 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:03.080 because is when you are able to be in a 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.840 position of either financial power or like social power in 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.240 a situation, you can walk away. But when you're up 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.600 for a promotion at Google and you want that promotion, 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.560 and you're young, and you're saving money and you're struggling. 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:18.760 Even though you're at Google, you're still young. You know 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:22.640 you don't have a lot. There is so much pressure 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.840 to just say I'm going to figure this out and 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:26.600 muscle through it. 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:31.440 You're so right. It's the emotional cost of going through 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:35.679 reporting something like that. It's the reputational impact of that 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:39.080 long term, it's the financial impact of being a young 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:41.639 person living in a city and sure making a great living, 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.159 but let's be honest, cost of living is really high, 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.639 and so it all feels so insurmountable. So what do 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:50.359 you do. You just kind of bury it and move on, 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:53.160 And that's what I did. But at the same time 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.439 I was making that decision of like, I'm just gonna 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.960 move on, But also it was this out of body 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.080 the experience where I could look at all the events 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:06.840 that transpired to get me here and say, this is 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.119 not the person that I'm meant to be, This is 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.879 not the person I was raised to be, and I 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.480 don't want this for myself anymore. And so that was 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.080 one of those moments I remember even after it happened. 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.320 I called my friend and roommate who also worked at Google, 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:24.159 and I said to her it was kind of prophetic. 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.000 I was like, I don't know what's going to happen 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.679 from here on out, but something has to change. 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:30.480 Wow. 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.000 And the next thing that did change for me was 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:36.000 that I ended up getting sober and I ended up 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:40.639 going through a recovery process and essentially looked at my 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:43.359 behavior in my side of the street and was like, okay, 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:47.320 Like I have a dependence on alcohol, I also have 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:51.080 a dependence on external validation and approval and significance, and 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.159 I need to find another way of working, but I 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:55.719 also need to take this piece out of the equation 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.760 for myself. And then the final thing that happened for 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:02.200