WEBVTT - A Commitment to Justice 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.316 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.356 --> 0:00:27.716 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.156 --> 0:00:33.476 I'm Noah Feldman. John Lewis, the civil rights icon and congressman, 0:00:33.996 --> 0:00:37.956 died last week at the age of eighty. He is known, 0:00:38.036 --> 0:00:41.396 among many other things, for being one of the leaders 0:00:41.476 --> 0:00:45.156 of the Selma to Montgomery Voting Rights March in nineteen 0:00:45.316 --> 0:00:49.116 sixty five. On March seventh of that year, a day 0:00:49.196 --> 0:00:53.996 now known as Bloody Sunday, Lewis and other marchers were 0:00:54.036 --> 0:00:58.756 attacked by armed police on the Edmund Pettis Bridge, an 0:00:58.756 --> 0:01:02.596 event that helped spur Lyndon Johnson into signing the Voting 0:01:02.676 --> 0:01:05.476 Rights Act. Lewis then went on to have a long 0:01:05.516 --> 0:01:09.356 and storied career in Congress, representing the fifth District of Orgia, 0:01:09.436 --> 0:01:13.316 which included a great deal of Atlanta for seventeen congressional terms, 0:01:13.596 --> 0:01:17.236 and always continuing to fight for voting rights and embodying 0:01:17.356 --> 0:01:20.996 the tradition and spirit of the civil rights movement. Here 0:01:20.996 --> 0:01:22.916 he is just a few years ago, speaking on the 0:01:22.916 --> 0:01:26.596 floor of the House of Representatives about expanding voting rights protections. 0:01:27.236 --> 0:01:30.716 In my hearts the heart, I believe that we should 0:01:30.756 --> 0:01:34.596 make it simple and convenient for all of our citizens 0:01:34.756 --> 0:01:38.156 to be part of the democratic process. It should not 0:01:38.396 --> 0:01:44.316 matter well you're black, a white, Latino, Asian, American, Native American. 0:01:44.876 --> 0:01:48.596 We should be able to participate in a democratic process. 0:01:48.916 --> 0:01:52.676 To discuss John Lewis's legacy and voting rights as they 0:01:52.716 --> 0:01:58.036 exist today, we are joined by Debo Adegbila. Debo twice 0:01:58.076 --> 0:02:01.396 defended the Voting Rights Act before the Supreme Court during 0:02:01.436 --> 0:02:05.596 his long career with the nuble ACP Legal Defense Fund. Today, 0:02:05.636 --> 0:02:08.436 he's a commissioner on the US Commission on Civil Rights, 0:02:08.636 --> 0:02:11.916 a position to which he was appointed by President Barack Obama, 0:02:12.076 --> 0:02:15.996 and he's a partner at the law firm Wilmer Hale Deboth. 0:02:16.036 --> 0:02:19.196 Thank you so much for joining me. I want to 0:02:19.196 --> 0:02:24.556 begin with a reminder for listeners of just how central 0:02:24.636 --> 0:02:28.036 the career of Congressman John Lewis was to the development 0:02:28.036 --> 0:02:31.756 of civil rights, and especially voting rights in the United States. 0:02:32.956 --> 0:02:36.396 He was chairman of the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee. 0:02:36.396 --> 0:02:39.236 He was one of the original thirteen Freedom Writers. He 0:02:39.236 --> 0:02:41.636 was one of the organizers of the March on Washington. 0:02:42.396 --> 0:02:46.076 When you think of his legacy, what elements stand out 0:02:46.156 --> 0:02:49.196 most for you in terms of his inspiration When I 0:02:49.236 --> 0:02:54.236 think of John Lewis, I think first of his exhortation 0:02:54.836 --> 0:02:58.436 to his fellow Americans that you have to be prepared 0:02:58.836 --> 0:03:03.276 to put yourself in the way to achieve justice. Is 0:03:03.356 --> 0:03:06.916 literally somebody who, from the time he was a teenager 0:03:07.636 --> 0:03:13.796 until his old days, was prepared to advance the cause 0:03:13.876 --> 0:03:19.156 of the disenfranchised by literally putting himself on the front 0:03:19.196 --> 0:03:26.636 lines of the public conversation, demonstrations, and issues of the day. 0:03:26.756 --> 0:03:31.916 He was fearless, a fearless advocate for justice, and he 0:03:31.996 --> 0:03:36.556 was motivated by an inner sense of moral courage that 0:03:36.636 --> 0:03:41.316 made him unbowed even in the face of risks to 0:03:41.396 --> 0:03:45.836 his life and well being. And that example of an 0:03:45.916 --> 0:03:50.316 unyielding commitment to the notion that America can be better 0:03:50.396 --> 0:03:54.356 tomorrow than it is today if we work at it 0:03:54.436 --> 0:03:58.516 is something that all of us should aspire to. There's 0:03:58.516 --> 0:04:02.756 something particularly extraordinary about the way that John Lewis, literally, 0:04:02.916 --> 0:04:05.716 as you were saying, put his body in the way 0:04:06.236 --> 0:04:09.796 of harm. And although he wasn't a murder like Martin 0:04:09.876 --> 0:04:14.036 Luther King Jr. He was very very badly injured on 0:04:14.076 --> 0:04:17.676 more than one occasion. That example, I think, is something 0:04:18.076 --> 0:04:22.596 the power of which will never ever become old. It's 0:04:22.636 --> 0:04:26.156 an example of moral courage that we should always return 0:04:26.196 --> 0:04:30.836 to that I believe future generations will return to. We 0:04:30.916 --> 0:04:34.316 know in so many ways we train people to be 0:04:34.396 --> 0:04:37.876 on the front lines. There are soldiers who are trained 0:04:37.956 --> 0:04:40.916 to be on the front lines. There is law enforcement 0:04:41.076 --> 0:04:43.516 that is trained to be on the front lines. These 0:04:43.596 --> 0:04:46.756 people we provide with weapons, and sometimes under the sanction 0:04:46.836 --> 0:04:51.036 of the flag or under state organized authority, have the 0:04:51.156 --> 0:04:55.836 right to defend themselves with deadly force and take people's lives. 0:04:55.876 --> 0:05:00.636 In contrast, the civil rights marchers and John Lewis, they 0:05:00.676 --> 0:05:05.276 had only the strength of their convictions and the understanding 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:07.876 that they were on the right side of history, and 0:05:07.916 --> 0:05:12.196 they presented themselves without weapons, but only with the force 0:05:12.556 --> 0:05:16.356 of their commitment to justice, and they did so in 0:05:16.396 --> 0:05:21.596 the face of brutal forces on the other side. Lewis 0:05:21.716 --> 0:05:25.676 was a deeply believing and committed Christian and had a 0:05:25.796 --> 0:05:28.836 calling to be a minister already when he was a boy, 0:05:29.596 --> 0:05:33.836 and trained then as a minister. Talk a little bit 0:05:33.876 --> 0:05:37.436 about how that kind of religious faith and religious center 0:05:38.156 --> 0:05:42.116 was so important to the moral message that he brought 0:05:42.196 --> 0:05:44.956 eventually to the country. I'm so glad that you've asked 0:05:44.956 --> 0:05:49.356 that Noah, because I do think that the religious grounding 0:05:49.876 --> 0:05:53.956 that John Lewis had was part of the transcendence with 0:05:54.036 --> 0:05:57.516 which he approached his life on earth. That is to say, 0:05:57.716 --> 0:06:02.116 he organized his life around the concept that there were 0:06:02.196 --> 0:06:06.596 things that were more important and perhaps a more meaningful 0:06:06.716 --> 0:06:09.916 willing to sacrifice your life if need be, because there 0:06:09.996 --> 0:06:13.716 was some moral imperative that was greater than the individual being. 0:06:13.836 --> 0:06:17.116 And I think that this is something that derives from 0:06:17.116 --> 0:06:22.716 many religious traditions, the sense of humanity perhaps rising above 0:06:23.196 --> 0:06:25.876 the cause of the individual. And I think it was 0:06:25.956 --> 0:06:29.836 part of this commitment that led him to understand that 0:06:29.916 --> 0:06:33.756 his work on earth was dedicated to being that of 0:06:33.796 --> 0:06:37.076 a servant, but he was in service of something that 0:06:37.196 --> 0:06:41.436 was bigger than his own individual needs and commitments. He 0:06:41.556 --> 0:06:45.596 was in service of the common humanity and dignity of 0:06:45.636 --> 0:06:48.316 all human beings, and I think that was what made 0:06:48.356 --> 0:06:51.356 him willing to put himself in harm's way. I think 0:06:51.356 --> 0:06:54.636 a lot about our American civic religion. You know, we 0:06:54.716 --> 0:06:57.716 have formal separation of church and state in our country, 0:06:57.756 --> 0:07:00.276 and we have a First Amendment with a free exercise 0:07:00.316 --> 0:07:04.716 clause and establishment clause, but we also have collective beliefs 0:07:04.716 --> 0:07:07.476 and values about who we are that are in some 0:07:07.596 --> 0:07:12.436 important ways connected to our collective conception of the divine. 0:07:13.196 --> 0:07:16.156 Even if one is not a Christian, as I indeed 0:07:16.236 --> 0:07:19.316 him not, I think it's possible to still appreciate and 0:07:19.356 --> 0:07:23.876 recognize the Christian component in our collective civic religion, which 0:07:23.876 --> 0:07:26.436 tries to be universal in a certain respect, but is 0:07:26.516 --> 0:07:31.116 also in certain ways inflected by Christian tradition. And I 0:07:31.116 --> 0:07:35.716 think here especially of sacrifice and of the willingness to sacrifice. 0:07:35.716 --> 0:07:37.436 And this connects up to the point that you made 0:07:37.436 --> 0:07:41.596 about John Lewis being prepared to give his body. That's 0:07:41.636 --> 0:07:46.196 a deeply Christian idea, one that is then transmuted, I 0:07:46.236 --> 0:07:50.316 think in our civil rights tradition into the idea of 0:07:50.836 --> 0:07:53.756 people for the Constitution and for the values of the 0:07:53.796 --> 0:07:57.156 Constitution and of equality and of equal justice being able 0:07:57.196 --> 0:08:00.836 to sacrifice their bodies. I wonder if you think that 0:08:00.836 --> 0:08:05.196 that resonance matters the specifically Christian side of what then 0:08:05.276 --> 0:08:08.676 becomes a more universal American civic religion. I believe it 0:08:08.716 --> 0:08:10.956 does matter. It matters to a lot of people, and 0:08:10.996 --> 0:08:14.116 I think people may connect to the message or the 0:08:14.156 --> 0:08:18.956 symbolism in different ways, depending upon the extent to which 0:08:19.316 --> 0:08:23.556 they follow the Christian tradition or theology. But for those 0:08:23.596 --> 0:08:26.756 who are thinking about the Christian traditions and the fact 0:08:26.836 --> 0:08:31.436 that Christ bled and the Lord sacrificed his son on 0:08:31.556 --> 0:08:35.396 a cross so that others may go forward and learn 0:08:35.516 --> 0:08:39.156 from the example of sacrifice. And when you think about 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:42.396 John Lewis and the others who bled on a bridge, 0:08:43.076 --> 0:08:45.516 laid their bodies down, and John Lewis used to say 0:08:45.516 --> 0:08:49.436 when he gave speeches recalling his work and his march 0:08:49.516 --> 0:08:53.036 with the other brave, nonviolent marchers on the Edmond Pettis Bridge, 0:08:53.036 --> 0:08:55.836 he used to say, I shed a little blood for 0:08:55.916 --> 0:08:58.716 the cause and for voting rights. I shed a little 0:08:58.836 --> 0:09:03.076 blood on that bridge. And so there is certainly a 0:09:03.156 --> 0:09:08.796 parallel in giving of the flesh and the body on 0:09:08.836 --> 0:09:13.196 earth in support of something that is higher and that 0:09:13.276 --> 0:09:18.476 has greater moral force and transcendence. And so I think 0:09:18.476 --> 0:09:23.596 that those who attend to Christian teachings can see a 0:09:23.676 --> 0:09:27.996 deep residence. But I like your point also about the 0:09:28.116 --> 0:09:32.716 American civic religion as I think you called it, or 0:09:32.836 --> 0:09:38.556 civic engagement, which means that whether you view the work 0:09:38.636 --> 0:09:43.796 and the effort through a theological lens or through a 0:09:43.836 --> 0:09:49.076 different democracy lens about we the people and what it 0:09:49.116 --> 0:09:53.636 means to be engaged in the construction of a civic religion, 0:09:54.196 --> 0:09:58.596 that is about the common aspiration of a people who 0:09:58.676 --> 0:10:02.396 recognize that we can be better if we work at it. 0:10:02.636 --> 0:10:05.356 And I think that that was also part of John 0:10:05.436 --> 0:10:10.956 Lewis's Snicks Southern Christian Leadership Conferences as the NAACP le 0:10:10.996 --> 0:10:14.076 ACP Legal Defense Fund that was also part of it. 0:10:14.116 --> 0:10:19.636 They took the words of building a more perfect union. Seriously, 0:10:19.996 --> 0:10:23.556 there was something that was aspirational in the founding vision, 0:10:23.836 --> 0:10:26.636 not that we come as a perfect nation, but that 0:10:26.836 --> 0:10:29.756 if we the people work at it, we can become 0:10:29.876 --> 0:10:34.196 a better nation. And perhaps that is the heart of 0:10:34.236 --> 0:10:39.316 the civic religion, if you will, of American democracy. Let's 0:10:39.356 --> 0:10:42.356 turn a little bit to the question of voting, which 0:10:42.356 --> 0:10:46.076 has been one of the central focuses of your career 0:10:46.236 --> 0:10:49.636 as a civil rights advocate, and which was of course 0:10:49.676 --> 0:10:53.996 so close to the center of Lewis's career and life. 0:10:54.956 --> 0:10:57.676 When you think about the Voting Rights Act of nineteen 0:10:57.796 --> 0:11:02.196 sixty five, what do you think its core promise was 0:11:02.276 --> 0:11:06.956 meant to be? I regard Voting Rights Act of nineteen 0:11:07.036 --> 0:11:15.076 sixty five, as a national commitment to a minority inclusion 0:11:15.276 --> 0:11:20.276 principle in our democracy. That is to say that for 0:11:20.556 --> 0:11:25.476 the full sweep of American history, many people in our society, 0:11:25.556 --> 0:11:29.996 African Americans, Latin X people, people in parts of the 0:11:30.076 --> 0:11:35.756 country were excluded from the most basic principle of a democracy, 0:11:36.076 --> 0:11:39.956 which is to participate in self governance. And that exclusion 0:11:40.036 --> 0:11:44.396 happened on account of race and discrimination that was state 0:11:44.516 --> 0:11:50.516 sponsored and enforced by state authorities at the barrel of 0:11:50.516 --> 0:11:55.836 a gun, and or mob violence. And what happened on 0:11:55.876 --> 0:12:00.516 the Edmund Pettus Bridge, and was followed closely by President 0:12:00.556 --> 0:12:04.916 Lyndon Johnson's speech before a joint session of Congress. It 0:12:05.076 --> 0:12:11.716 was a moment in which the gap between our promises 0:12:12.036 --> 0:12:16.996 of equal protection of the laws and the practices on 0:12:17.036 --> 0:12:23.596 the ground of exclusion and segregation was being intentionally narrowed 0:12:23.836 --> 0:12:26.356 in a way that would change the nation. I view 0:12:26.956 --> 0:12:31.036 the effort at civil rights as an effort to narrow 0:12:31.076 --> 0:12:36.876 the gap between our high civic promises and constitutional promises 0:12:37.156 --> 0:12:42.156 and what are too often low practices. John Lewis and 0:12:42.356 --> 0:12:44.996 his brothers and sisters who joined him on that bridge, 0:12:45.356 --> 0:12:48.756 and those who gave their lives before and after that march. 0:12:49.236 --> 0:12:52.716 Many people may not remember that the march itself was 0:12:52.756 --> 0:12:57.196 occasion because of military veteran Jimmy Lee Jackson was killed 0:12:57.556 --> 0:13:01.396 in an earlier voting march by a state trooper or 0:13:02.036 --> 0:13:08.316 police official in Alabama, and his colleagues were so upset 0:13:08.796 --> 0:13:12.276 that Imi Lee Jackson had been killed defending his grandmother 0:13:12.316 --> 0:13:16.436 and mother at a peaceful voting march that Josea Williams said, 0:13:16.436 --> 0:13:19.236 we should take Jimmy Lee Jackson's coffin and we should 0:13:19.316 --> 0:13:22.236 march it all the way to Montgomery, the point being 0:13:22.556 --> 0:13:26.916 that we should put the body of sacrifice of our 0:13:26.916 --> 0:13:30.196 brothers and sisters and lay it bare and expose it 0:13:30.236 --> 0:13:33.076 before the nation so that the world can see what 0:13:33.196 --> 0:13:36.036 we are prepared to give, what we are in fact 0:13:36.116 --> 0:13:40.756 giving in service of equality, and that to me is 0:13:40.796 --> 0:13:42.956 the heart of the Voting Rights Act. It was a 0:13:43.116 --> 0:13:46.276 national commitment that said we are going to use the 0:13:46.396 --> 0:13:51.076 power of the federal government and of state authority not 0:13:51.196 --> 0:13:54.796 only to subjugate, and not to turn a blind eye 0:13:55.036 --> 0:13:59.396 while state government subjugate, but to elevate the voices of 0:13:59.476 --> 0:14:04.036 democratic participation in the polity and to stand for a 0:14:04.116 --> 0:14:07.836 minority inclusion principle that we cannot turn back from. That's 0:14:07.876 --> 0:14:10.756 how I regard the voting rights. We'll be right back. 0:14:20.916 --> 0:14:24.676 The minority inclusion principle that you're talking about ended up 0:14:24.716 --> 0:14:27.196 being embodied in different parts of the Voting Rights Act 0:14:27.276 --> 0:14:29.756 of nineteen sixty five, but one of the most important 0:14:29.756 --> 0:14:35.836 components was a practical process called preclearance, according to which 0:14:35.916 --> 0:14:38.076 if you're in a part of the country with a history, 0:14:38.356 --> 0:14:44.636 a demonstrated history of race based voting exclusion, before you 0:14:44.676 --> 0:14:49.676 can change the way that you district and assign voters 0:14:49.716 --> 0:14:51.796 to different districts, which of course is crucial to how 0:14:51.876 --> 0:14:55.396 voting outcomes are produced, you had to go to the 0:14:55.436 --> 0:14:59.236 Department of Justice and get the Department of Justice to 0:14:59.436 --> 0:15:03.116 review your plan, and then very probably you'd have to 0:15:03.116 --> 0:15:05.276 go to a court and get the court as well 0:15:05.636 --> 0:15:07.996 to have a look at that plan before you could 0:15:07.996 --> 0:15:13.316 make a chance. That practice, which remained in place from 0:15:13.396 --> 0:15:16.596 nineteen sixty five and was then renewed by Congress a 0:15:16.636 --> 0:15:20.796 couple of times, came under attack in a very important 0:15:21.076 --> 0:15:25.476 voting rights case, landmark case called Shelby County against Holder 0:15:26.076 --> 0:15:29.516 that the Supreme Court decided in twenty thirteen, and you 0:15:29.556 --> 0:15:31.876 were one of the people who argued that case before 0:15:31.876 --> 0:15:35.836 the Supreme Court while working for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, 0:15:36.596 --> 0:15:40.156 tell us about what that experience was like, and then 0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:42.596 through that maybe tell us about how the case came 0:15:42.596 --> 0:15:46.596 out and what you feel about it. Absolutely, so, Shelby County, 0:15:46.996 --> 0:15:49.676 I believe is rightfully regarded as one of the most 0:15:49.716 --> 0:15:56.316 significant civil rights cases of this generation. Unfortunately, and I 0:15:56.356 --> 0:15:59.556 will begin at the end, it stands in some ways 0:15:59.596 --> 0:16:04.436 for the proposition not only that a particularly effective piece 0:16:04.956 --> 0:16:09.156 of the Voting Rights Act has been rendered inoperable, the 0:16:09.236 --> 0:16:13.356 preclearance provision of which you spoke, but also the case 0:16:13.396 --> 0:16:18.116 stands for the proposition that there was a signal that 0:16:18.156 --> 0:16:23.596 the country was again in retreat and stepping away from 0:16:23.876 --> 0:16:28.076 the minority inclusion principle that had been so central to 0:16:28.156 --> 0:16:32.076 our march toward justice and our march toward freedom. And 0:16:32.116 --> 0:16:37.556 so Shelby County presented those issues. Essentially, the question before 0:16:37.596 --> 0:16:41.036 the court, not the technical legal question, but the question 0:16:41.116 --> 0:16:43.716 that I think people should understand was before the Court 0:16:45.236 --> 0:16:48.796 is the fact that we have made progress in large 0:16:48.836 --> 0:16:52.956 measure because we have had protections in place, and because 0:16:52.956 --> 0:16:56.996 we turned away from a system of exclusion and discrimination 0:16:57.356 --> 0:17:00.196 to a system of minority inclusion. Is the fact of 0:17:00.236 --> 0:17:05.716 that progress evidence that we should abandon our effort to 0:17:05.756 --> 0:17:10.036 continue to perfect the union to make more progress? Right? Essentially, 0:17:10.036 --> 0:17:13.116 there were two roads that were diverging as the Court 0:17:13.196 --> 0:17:16.756 was presented with Shelby County. Should the improvement that we 0:17:16.836 --> 0:17:19.916 have seen from the time of nineteen sixty five until 0:17:20.276 --> 0:17:23.156 twenty thirteen. Should that leave us in the position that 0:17:23.196 --> 0:17:26.316 there's enough progress and when we can step away? Or 0:17:26.516 --> 0:17:31.036 must we continue to follow consistent with the judgment of Congress, 0:17:31.156 --> 0:17:35.036 including a unanimous United States Senate that voted ninety eight 0:17:35.116 --> 0:17:39.036 zero in support of the reauthorization of the preclarance provisions 0:17:39.036 --> 0:17:41.716 of the Voting Rights Act? Should we continue to do 0:17:41.796 --> 0:17:45.156 more to do better to perfect the Union? As I 0:17:45.196 --> 0:17:48.556 walked in the courtroom to argue the Shelby County case, 0:17:48.956 --> 0:17:51.276 it was the second time that I had defended these 0:17:51.276 --> 0:17:53.996 provisions of the Voting Rights Act before the United States 0:17:54.036 --> 0:17:58.996 Supreme Court. The Northwest Austin case presented a very similar question. 0:17:59.396 --> 0:18:02.236 It's my understanding that the first Supreme Court argument that 0:18:02.316 --> 0:18:06.796 John Lewis ever attended was the Northwest Austin case. He 0:18:06.916 --> 0:18:10.156 was there again on the day of the Shelby County argument, 0:18:10.356 --> 0:18:14.396 to witness the defense of the statute that he literally 0:18:14.436 --> 0:18:17.156 had given blood for, and that he knew people who 0:18:17.196 --> 0:18:20.156 had died for. He wanted to be present. He wanted 0:18:20.156 --> 0:18:23.436 to bear witness, to see our government at work, and 0:18:23.476 --> 0:18:26.556 to stand again on the front lines of the fight 0:18:26.636 --> 0:18:30.716 for equality, and to be in the courtroom. It was 0:18:30.756 --> 0:18:34.596 a weighty responsibility. I said of the earlier case that 0:18:34.676 --> 0:18:40.436 it was humbling, exhilarating, and terrifying all at once. All 0:18:40.436 --> 0:18:43.436 of those emotions are coursing through your body as you 0:18:43.556 --> 0:18:47.036 rise to the podium in some ways, to try and 0:18:47.156 --> 0:18:51.316 speak what many people regard as a self evident truth 0:18:51.796 --> 0:18:56.236 to power that discrimination continues in America, and that voting 0:18:56.236 --> 0:19:00.716 discrimination continues, and that the protections that Congress had committed 0:19:00.716 --> 0:19:03.676 to over a long period of time remained important and 0:19:03.756 --> 0:19:06.676 were doing vital work. That was the self evident truth. 0:19:06.876 --> 0:19:10.156 In some ways, you feel as if you and your 0:19:10.196 --> 0:19:14.276 presentation is trying to prove that the sun will rise tomorrow. 0:19:14.636 --> 0:19:18.236 It is that self evident. And it was difficult to 0:19:18.276 --> 0:19:21.476 be there and to see the extent to which even 0:19:21.556 --> 0:19:24.796 during the oral argument, the Court was signaling that it 0:19:24.876 --> 0:19:29.476 was going to cast aside under our constitutional system, the 0:19:29.596 --> 0:19:32.956 judgment of the Congress, and I think we have seen 0:19:33.036 --> 0:19:35.756 on the backside what has happened in the wake of 0:19:35.796 --> 0:19:39.116 Shelby County. That is, those things that were self evident 0:19:39.316 --> 0:19:41.956 have proven to be true, and that many are taking 0:19:41.996 --> 0:19:45.116 the signal that the federal government is in retreat from 0:19:45.196 --> 0:19:49.836 minority voter protection and those who wish to win elections 0:19:49.876 --> 0:19:55.236 through nefarious means are trying to have their way. The 0:19:55.316 --> 0:19:57.956 day that the case came down, I remember very vividly 0:19:57.956 --> 0:19:59.716 sitting at my computer doing what I always do in 0:19:59.756 --> 0:20:02.156 the Supreme Court decides it's big cases, you know, they 0:20:02.236 --> 0:20:04.276 come down, I get them on the computer. I read 0:20:04.316 --> 0:20:06.956 them as fast as I humanly can. Then I sit 0:20:06.996 --> 0:20:10.276 down and I write something for my my column about it. 0:20:10.436 --> 0:20:14.796 And my opening line that day was the Civil Rights 0:20:14.796 --> 0:20:19.236 era ended. Today. I wonder, looking back at this in retrospect, 0:20:19.276 --> 0:20:22.716 if I overstated the case in your view. What I meant, 0:20:22.756 --> 0:20:25.956 of course, was that symbolically, the Voting Rights Act was 0:20:25.996 --> 0:20:30.156 at the very core of the civil rights movement, and 0:20:30.316 --> 0:20:35.236 because it had been renewed by Congress, Congress had maintained 0:20:35.956 --> 0:20:39.556 the momentum in some sense of the civil rights movement, 0:20:40.316 --> 0:20:43.596 even in the face of conservative opposition to it sometimes 0:20:44.236 --> 0:20:48.236 and that the Supreme Court, by this extreme activist decision, 0:20:48.996 --> 0:20:52.356 was blocking the progress of the civil rights movement. When 0:20:52.356 --> 0:20:54.836 you look back at it from a distance of now 0:20:55.316 --> 0:20:57.716 just a little more than seven years, and you think 0:20:57.716 --> 0:21:01.036 about the consequences of that decision, do you feel as 0:21:01.036 --> 0:21:03.316 though the civil rights movement was in some important ways 0:21:03.356 --> 0:21:06.796 stymied or blocked, or do you think that there have 0:21:06.836 --> 0:21:10.356 been creative ways for activists and others to try to 0:21:10.396 --> 0:21:15.236 continue to press for voting rights notwithstanding the great limit 0:21:15.436 --> 0:21:19.436 that the Court placed on this extraordinary tool, the Voting 0:21:19.516 --> 0:21:23.996 Rights Act. It's an important question, Noah, and I think 0:21:24.076 --> 0:21:28.436 for the answer, I am reminded of the work of 0:21:28.716 --> 0:21:33.836 Alexander Kasar. Alex Kasar wrote an important book about the 0:21:33.916 --> 0:21:35.956 history of the right to vote, and one of the 0:21:36.036 --> 0:21:41.436 central tenants of Professor Kaisar's book is that there is 0:21:41.476 --> 0:21:47.196 a dominant and somewhat ubiquitous understanding or theory out there 0:21:47.836 --> 0:21:53.756 that America and American democracy has been on a path 0:21:54.316 --> 0:21:58.596 of unidirectional progress. That is to say, that things always 0:21:58.596 --> 0:22:02.676 get better, we're always improving, and things are always moving forward. 0:22:03.276 --> 0:22:06.996 What case are, among other things, added to the conversation 0:22:07.676 --> 0:22:09.596 is that when you look at the story of voting 0:22:09.596 --> 0:22:14.076 in America, what you see is not a pattern of 0:22:14.596 --> 0:22:18.676 unidirectional progress, of a march that is ever forward. But 0:22:18.796 --> 0:22:22.796 what you see is a history of ebbs and flows, 0:22:23.436 --> 0:22:27.796 concerted efforts to push and expand the reach of the franchise, 0:22:28.316 --> 0:22:33.636 and then reactions against those pushes for greater democratic inclusion, 0:22:34.116 --> 0:22:38.156 and rearguard efforts that push back and try and limit 0:22:38.196 --> 0:22:43.116 the franchise. And so, because I had the understanding of 0:22:43.156 --> 0:22:46.876 the nature of the struggle for voting rights, perhaps for 0:22:46.916 --> 0:22:50.436 civil rights more broadly, that it's action and reaction, that 0:22:50.516 --> 0:22:54.676 it's not just a unidirectional march forward, I understood that 0:22:54.716 --> 0:22:59.836 Shelby County was a very disappointing and important mark on 0:22:59.956 --> 0:23:03.876 the course of civil rights and voting history, but would 0:23:03.916 --> 0:23:06.516 not be the final word, would not be the end 0:23:07.036 --> 0:23:10.636 of the nation's quest for civil rights, but was perhaps 0:23:10.716 --> 0:23:14.116 the end of a chapter that signaled that there were 0:23:14.156 --> 0:23:17.556 gathering clouds ahead, and that there were difficult days ahead, 0:23:17.836 --> 0:23:21.076 but that those of us who remain, like John Lewis, 0:23:21.756 --> 0:23:25.236 undaunted in the face of long odds, would continue to 0:23:25.236 --> 0:23:28.436 put our shoulder against the Boulder and push for greater 0:23:28.516 --> 0:23:31.596 inclusion and to try and move the country forward again. 0:23:31.916 --> 0:23:35.236 So I bring that understanding to the fight for civil rights, 0:23:35.316 --> 0:23:39.396 that sometimes it's faced with setbacks, and that what's important 0:23:39.876 --> 0:23:42.836 is to be unyielding in the face of those setbacks 0:23:42.996 --> 0:23:47.436 and to push and demand more. You yourself have had 0:23:47.476 --> 0:23:51.396 an extraordinary career fighting those setbacks and trying to be 0:23:51.476 --> 0:23:55.036 an advocate for and being an advocate for civil rights. 0:23:55.276 --> 0:23:58.076 I know you went to Connecticut College, where my brother 0:23:58.676 --> 0:24:01.356 teaches in the philosophy department, a college that is an 0:24:01.396 --> 0:24:03.836 amazing place. Then you went to ny U Law School, 0:24:03.836 --> 0:24:07.876 where I myself started my academic career, and then you 0:24:07.956 --> 0:24:12.636 worked for many years CPLDF and then had various responsibilities 0:24:12.636 --> 0:24:16.556 and positions in the Obama administration, and then working at 0:24:16.596 --> 0:24:19.396 the Senate as well, and now you're a Commissioner of 0:24:19.436 --> 0:24:23.716 the US Commission on Civil Rights. When you think about 0:24:23.756 --> 0:24:26.756 what you can do going forward, and you're still very 0:24:26.796 --> 0:24:30.116 young man, when you think about the next phase of 0:24:30.156 --> 0:24:34.036 your own life and connect that to the cause of 0:24:34.076 --> 0:24:38.156 civil rights, what strikes you as the biggest challenges and 0:24:38.196 --> 0:24:41.396 where would you like to be able to make contributions 0:24:41.476 --> 0:24:45.396 in the next phase of your own professional life. Thank 0:24:45.436 --> 0:24:49.516 you for that question. And I think about the fights 0:24:49.516 --> 0:24:53.996 for educational opportunity and the inequities that we see both 0:24:54.036 --> 0:24:58.316 in K through twelve education and in higher education, and 0:24:58.396 --> 0:25:02.876 how important education is as being a tool in some 0:25:02.956 --> 0:25:08.276 sort of civic transcendence. It is a pathway to opportunity. 0:25:08.556 --> 0:25:11.276 I think, of course, about the issues of criminal justice 0:25:11.596 --> 0:25:16.996 and the relationship between minority communities and law enforcement across 0:25:17.036 --> 0:25:19.676 the nation. I think about the path that the nation 0:25:19.756 --> 0:25:25.996 has walked of increasingly militaristic policing tactics, but the opportunity 0:25:25.996 --> 0:25:31.036 and the possibility that is there to revisit the relationship 0:25:31.116 --> 0:25:36.636 between law enforcement and minority communities and all communities. I 0:25:36.796 --> 0:25:40.156 remain committed to the idea that there is a way 0:25:40.196 --> 0:25:44.716 to align our democratic institutions where we are not fearing 0:25:44.916 --> 0:25:48.196 the differences that exist in our society, but are regarding 0:25:48.196 --> 0:25:50.796 them as a strength that we can commit to and 0:25:50.956 --> 0:25:55.036 lift up voices in service of the common idea that 0:25:55.076 --> 0:25:59.036 we share that we are stronger together than we are 0:25:59.556 --> 0:26:04.116 when we curry divisiveness in the people. And so I 0:26:04.156 --> 0:26:07.476 hope to try and use the remaining days that I 0:26:07.556 --> 0:26:09.956 have not feeling as much of a young man as 0:26:10.156 --> 0:26:13.236 I once was, but hopefully there are some more miles 0:26:13.316 --> 0:26:16.196 on the odometer to continue to work at these things 0:26:16.396 --> 0:26:18.996 in large and small ways. And the last thing that 0:26:19.036 --> 0:26:20.716 I would say on this point, because it's such an 0:26:20.716 --> 0:26:26.516 important question you've asked, is that John Lewis understood that 0:26:26.596 --> 0:26:29.516 he was able to be a catalyst for change. He 0:26:29.556 --> 0:26:32.116 was able to put himself on the front lines, but 0:26:32.156 --> 0:26:36.756 he was also able to recognize that there were generations 0:26:36.756 --> 0:26:39.516 of people that were coming behind him, and that their 0:26:39.636 --> 0:26:44.316 voices and contributions and ideas were no less valuable than 0:26:44.396 --> 0:26:47.276 what his contributions had been in his day. And so 0:26:47.316 --> 0:26:49.596 one of the ways that I have tried to carry 0:26:49.596 --> 0:26:53.156 forward the lessons of the civil rights movement is that 0:26:53.236 --> 0:26:56.796 piece of transcendence that when people are coming together for 0:26:56.956 --> 0:27:00.756 collective aims, you should not feel that any leader or 0:27:00.796 --> 0:27:04.876 any one person as all the right ideas or has 0:27:04.996 --> 0:27:08.316 the single path to improve things. You have to make 0:27:08.396 --> 0:27:11.756