1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:24,356 --> 00:00:27,716 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,156 --> 00:00:33,476 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. John Lewis, the civil rights icon and congressman, 4 00:00:33,996 --> 00:00:37,956 Speaker 1: died last week at the age of eighty. He is known, 5 00:00:38,036 --> 00:00:41,396 Speaker 1: among many other things, for being one of the leaders 6 00:00:41,476 --> 00:00:45,156 Speaker 1: of the Selma to Montgomery Voting Rights March in nineteen 7 00:00:45,316 --> 00:00:49,116 Speaker 1: sixty five. On March seventh of that year, a day 8 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:53,996 Speaker 1: now known as Bloody Sunday, Lewis and other marchers were 9 00:00:54,036 --> 00:00:58,756 Speaker 1: attacked by armed police on the Edmund Pettis Bridge, an 10 00:00:58,756 --> 00:01:02,596 Speaker 1: event that helped spur Lyndon Johnson into signing the Voting 11 00:01:02,676 --> 00:01:05,476 Speaker 1: Rights Act. Lewis then went on to have a long 12 00:01:05,516 --> 00:01:09,356 Speaker 1: and storied career in Congress, representing the fifth District of Orgia, 13 00:01:09,436 --> 00:01:13,316 Speaker 1: which included a great deal of Atlanta for seventeen congressional terms, 14 00:01:13,596 --> 00:01:17,236 Speaker 1: and always continuing to fight for voting rights and embodying 15 00:01:17,356 --> 00:01:20,996 Speaker 1: the tradition and spirit of the civil rights movement. Here 16 00:01:20,996 --> 00:01:22,916 Speaker 1: he is just a few years ago, speaking on the 17 00:01:22,916 --> 00:01:26,596 Speaker 1: floor of the House of Representatives about expanding voting rights protections. 18 00:01:27,236 --> 00:01:30,716 Speaker 1: In my hearts the heart, I believe that we should 19 00:01:30,756 --> 00:01:34,596 Speaker 1: make it simple and convenient for all of our citizens 20 00:01:34,756 --> 00:01:38,156 Speaker 1: to be part of the democratic process. It should not 21 00:01:38,396 --> 00:01:44,316 Speaker 1: matter well you're black, a white, Latino, Asian, American, Native American. 22 00:01:44,876 --> 00:01:48,596 Speaker 1: We should be able to participate in a democratic process. 23 00:01:48,916 --> 00:01:52,676 Speaker 1: To discuss John Lewis's legacy and voting rights as they 24 00:01:52,716 --> 00:01:58,036 Speaker 1: exist today, we are joined by Debo Adegbila. Debo twice 25 00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:01,396 Speaker 1: defended the Voting Rights Act before the Supreme Court during 26 00:02:01,436 --> 00:02:05,596 Speaker 1: his long career with the nuble ACP Legal Defense Fund. Today, 27 00:02:05,636 --> 00:02:08,436 Speaker 1: he's a commissioner on the US Commission on Civil Rights, 28 00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:11,916 Speaker 1: a position to which he was appointed by President Barack Obama, 29 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:15,996 Speaker 1: and he's a partner at the law firm Wilmer Hale Deboth. 30 00:02:16,036 --> 00:02:19,196 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me. I want to 31 00:02:19,196 --> 00:02:24,556 Speaker 1: begin with a reminder for listeners of just how central 32 00:02:24,636 --> 00:02:28,036 Speaker 1: the career of Congressman John Lewis was to the development 33 00:02:28,036 --> 00:02:31,756 Speaker 1: of civil rights, and especially voting rights in the United States. 34 00:02:32,956 --> 00:02:36,396 Speaker 1: He was chairman of the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee. 35 00:02:36,396 --> 00:02:39,236 Speaker 1: He was one of the original thirteen Freedom Writers. He 36 00:02:39,236 --> 00:02:41,636 Speaker 1: was one of the organizers of the March on Washington. 37 00:02:42,396 --> 00:02:46,076 Speaker 1: When you think of his legacy, what elements stand out 38 00:02:46,156 --> 00:02:49,196 Speaker 1: most for you in terms of his inspiration When I 39 00:02:49,236 --> 00:02:54,236 Speaker 1: think of John Lewis, I think first of his exhortation 40 00:02:54,836 --> 00:02:58,436 Speaker 1: to his fellow Americans that you have to be prepared 41 00:02:58,836 --> 00:03:03,276 Speaker 1: to put yourself in the way to achieve justice. Is 42 00:03:03,356 --> 00:03:06,916 Speaker 1: literally somebody who, from the time he was a teenager 43 00:03:07,636 --> 00:03:13,796 Speaker 1: until his old days, was prepared to advance the cause 44 00:03:13,876 --> 00:03:19,156 Speaker 1: of the disenfranchised by literally putting himself on the front 45 00:03:19,196 --> 00:03:26,636 Speaker 1: lines of the public conversation, demonstrations, and issues of the day. 46 00:03:26,756 --> 00:03:31,916 Speaker 1: He was fearless, a fearless advocate for justice, and he 47 00:03:31,996 --> 00:03:36,556 Speaker 1: was motivated by an inner sense of moral courage that 48 00:03:36,636 --> 00:03:41,316 Speaker 1: made him unbowed even in the face of risks to 49 00:03:41,396 --> 00:03:45,836 Speaker 1: his life and well being. And that example of an 50 00:03:45,916 --> 00:03:50,316 Speaker 1: unyielding commitment to the notion that America can be better 51 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:54,356 Speaker 1: tomorrow than it is today if we work at it 52 00:03:54,436 --> 00:03:58,516 Speaker 1: is something that all of us should aspire to. There's 53 00:03:58,516 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 1: something particularly extraordinary about the way that John Lewis, literally, 54 00:04:02,916 --> 00:04:05,716 Speaker 1: as you were saying, put his body in the way 55 00:04:06,236 --> 00:04:09,796 Speaker 1: of harm. And although he wasn't a murder like Martin 56 00:04:09,876 --> 00:04:14,036 Speaker 1: Luther King Jr. He was very very badly injured on 57 00:04:14,076 --> 00:04:17,676 Speaker 1: more than one occasion. That example, I think, is something 58 00:04:18,076 --> 00:04:22,596 Speaker 1: the power of which will never ever become old. It's 59 00:04:22,636 --> 00:04:26,156 Speaker 1: an example of moral courage that we should always return 60 00:04:26,196 --> 00:04:30,836 Speaker 1: to that I believe future generations will return to. We 61 00:04:30,916 --> 00:04:34,316 Speaker 1: know in so many ways we train people to be 62 00:04:34,396 --> 00:04:37,876 Speaker 1: on the front lines. There are soldiers who are trained 63 00:04:37,956 --> 00:04:40,916 Speaker 1: to be on the front lines. There is law enforcement 64 00:04:41,076 --> 00:04:43,516 Speaker 1: that is trained to be on the front lines. These 65 00:04:43,596 --> 00:04:46,756 Speaker 1: people we provide with weapons, and sometimes under the sanction 66 00:04:46,836 --> 00:04:51,036 Speaker 1: of the flag or under state organized authority, have the 67 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:55,836 Speaker 1: right to defend themselves with deadly force and take people's lives. 68 00:04:55,876 --> 00:05:00,636 Speaker 1: In contrast, the civil rights marchers and John Lewis, they 69 00:05:00,676 --> 00:05:05,276 Speaker 1: had only the strength of their convictions and the understanding 70 00:05:05,516 --> 00:05:07,876 Speaker 1: that they were on the right side of history, and 71 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:12,196 Speaker 1: they presented themselves without weapons, but only with the force 72 00:05:12,556 --> 00:05:16,356 Speaker 1: of their commitment to justice, and they did so in 73 00:05:16,396 --> 00:05:21,596 Speaker 1: the face of brutal forces on the other side. Lewis 74 00:05:21,716 --> 00:05:25,676 Speaker 1: was a deeply believing and committed Christian and had a 75 00:05:25,796 --> 00:05:28,836 Speaker 1: calling to be a minister already when he was a boy, 76 00:05:29,596 --> 00:05:33,836 Speaker 1: and trained then as a minister. Talk a little bit 77 00:05:33,876 --> 00:05:37,436 Speaker 1: about how that kind of religious faith and religious center 78 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:42,116 Speaker 1: was so important to the moral message that he brought 79 00:05:42,196 --> 00:05:44,956 Speaker 1: eventually to the country. I'm so glad that you've asked 80 00:05:44,956 --> 00:05:49,356 Speaker 1: that Noah, because I do think that the religious grounding 81 00:05:49,876 --> 00:05:53,956 Speaker 1: that John Lewis had was part of the transcendence with 82 00:05:54,036 --> 00:05:57,516 Speaker 1: which he approached his life on earth. That is to say, 83 00:05:57,716 --> 00:06:02,116 Speaker 1: he organized his life around the concept that there were 84 00:06:02,196 --> 00:06:06,596 Speaker 1: things that were more important and perhaps a more meaningful 85 00:06:06,716 --> 00:06:09,916 Speaker 1: willing to sacrifice your life if need be, because there 86 00:06:09,996 --> 00:06:13,716 Speaker 1: was some moral imperative that was greater than the individual being. 87 00:06:13,836 --> 00:06:17,116 Speaker 1: And I think that this is something that derives from 88 00:06:17,116 --> 00:06:22,716 Speaker 1: many religious traditions, the sense of humanity perhaps rising above 89 00:06:23,196 --> 00:06:25,876 Speaker 1: the cause of the individual. And I think it was 90 00:06:25,956 --> 00:06:29,836 Speaker 1: part of this commitment that led him to understand that 91 00:06:29,916 --> 00:06:33,756 Speaker 1: his work on earth was dedicated to being that of 92 00:06:33,796 --> 00:06:37,076 Speaker 1: a servant, but he was in service of something that 93 00:06:37,196 --> 00:06:41,436 Speaker 1: was bigger than his own individual needs and commitments. He 94 00:06:41,556 --> 00:06:45,596 Speaker 1: was in service of the common humanity and dignity of 95 00:06:45,636 --> 00:06:48,316 Speaker 1: all human beings, and I think that was what made 96 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:51,356 Speaker 1: him willing to put himself in harm's way. I think 97 00:06:51,356 --> 00:06:54,636 Speaker 1: a lot about our American civic religion. You know, we 98 00:06:54,716 --> 00:06:57,716 Speaker 1: have formal separation of church and state in our country, 99 00:06:57,756 --> 00:07:00,276 Speaker 1: and we have a First Amendment with a free exercise 100 00:07:00,316 --> 00:07:04,716 Speaker 1: clause and establishment clause, but we also have collective beliefs 101 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:07,476 Speaker 1: and values about who we are that are in some 102 00:07:07,596 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 1: important ways connected to our collective conception of the divine. 103 00:07:13,196 --> 00:07:16,156 Speaker 1: Even if one is not a Christian, as I indeed 104 00:07:16,236 --> 00:07:19,316 Speaker 1: him not, I think it's possible to still appreciate and 105 00:07:19,356 --> 00:07:23,876 Speaker 1: recognize the Christian component in our collective civic religion, which 106 00:07:23,876 --> 00:07:26,436 Speaker 1: tries to be universal in a certain respect, but is 107 00:07:26,516 --> 00:07:31,116 Speaker 1: also in certain ways inflected by Christian tradition. And I 108 00:07:31,116 --> 00:07:35,716 Speaker 1: think here especially of sacrifice and of the willingness to sacrifice. 109 00:07:35,716 --> 00:07:37,436 Speaker 1: And this connects up to the point that you made 110 00:07:37,436 --> 00:07:41,596 Speaker 1: about John Lewis being prepared to give his body. That's 111 00:07:41,636 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 1: a deeply Christian idea, one that is then transmuted, I 112 00:07:46,236 --> 00:07:50,316 Speaker 1: think in our civil rights tradition into the idea of 113 00:07:50,836 --> 00:07:53,756 Speaker 1: people for the Constitution and for the values of the 114 00:07:53,796 --> 00:07:57,156 Speaker 1: Constitution and of equality and of equal justice being able 115 00:07:57,196 --> 00:08:00,836 Speaker 1: to sacrifice their bodies. I wonder if you think that 116 00:08:00,836 --> 00:08:05,196 Speaker 1: that resonance matters the specifically Christian side of what then 117 00:08:05,276 --> 00:08:08,676 Speaker 1: becomes a more universal American civic religion. I believe it 118 00:08:08,716 --> 00:08:10,956 Speaker 1: does matter. It matters to a lot of people, and 119 00:08:10,996 --> 00:08:14,116 Speaker 1: I think people may connect to the message or the 120 00:08:14,156 --> 00:08:18,956 Speaker 1: symbolism in different ways, depending upon the extent to which 121 00:08:19,316 --> 00:08:23,556 Speaker 1: they follow the Christian tradition or theology. But for those 122 00:08:23,596 --> 00:08:26,756 Speaker 1: who are thinking about the Christian traditions and the fact 123 00:08:26,836 --> 00:08:31,436 Speaker 1: that Christ bled and the Lord sacrificed his son on 124 00:08:31,556 --> 00:08:35,396 Speaker 1: a cross so that others may go forward and learn 125 00:08:35,516 --> 00:08:39,156 Speaker 1: from the example of sacrifice. And when you think about 126 00:08:39,236 --> 00:08:42,396 Speaker 1: John Lewis and the others who bled on a bridge, 127 00:08:43,076 --> 00:08:45,516 Speaker 1: laid their bodies down, and John Lewis used to say 128 00:08:45,516 --> 00:08:49,436 Speaker 1: when he gave speeches recalling his work and his march 129 00:08:49,516 --> 00:08:53,036 Speaker 1: with the other brave, nonviolent marchers on the Edmond Pettis Bridge, 130 00:08:53,036 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 1: he used to say, I shed a little blood for 131 00:08:55,916 --> 00:08:58,716 Speaker 1: the cause and for voting rights. I shed a little 132 00:08:58,836 --> 00:09:03,076 Speaker 1: blood on that bridge. And so there is certainly a 133 00:09:03,156 --> 00:09:08,796 Speaker 1: parallel in giving of the flesh and the body on 134 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:13,196 Speaker 1: earth in support of something that is higher and that 135 00:09:13,276 --> 00:09:18,476 Speaker 1: has greater moral force and transcendence. And so I think 136 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:23,596 Speaker 1: that those who attend to Christian teachings can see a 137 00:09:23,676 --> 00:09:27,996 Speaker 1: deep residence. But I like your point also about the 138 00:09:28,116 --> 00:09:32,716 Speaker 1: American civic religion as I think you called it, or 139 00:09:32,836 --> 00:09:38,556 Speaker 1: civic engagement, which means that whether you view the work 140 00:09:38,636 --> 00:09:43,796 Speaker 1: and the effort through a theological lens or through a 141 00:09:43,836 --> 00:09:49,076 Speaker 1: different democracy lens about we the people and what it 142 00:09:49,116 --> 00:09:53,636 Speaker 1: means to be engaged in the construction of a civic religion, 143 00:09:54,196 --> 00:09:58,596 Speaker 1: that is about the common aspiration of a people who 144 00:09:58,676 --> 00:10:02,396 Speaker 1: recognize that we can be better if we work at it. 145 00:10:02,636 --> 00:10:05,356 Speaker 1: And I think that that was also part of John 146 00:10:05,436 --> 00:10:10,956 Speaker 1: Lewis's Snicks Southern Christian Leadership Conferences as the NAACP le 147 00:10:10,996 --> 00:10:14,076 Speaker 1: ACP Legal Defense Fund that was also part of it. 148 00:10:14,116 --> 00:10:19,636 Speaker 1: They took the words of building a more perfect union. Seriously, 149 00:10:19,996 --> 00:10:23,556 Speaker 1: there was something that was aspirational in the founding vision, 150 00:10:23,836 --> 00:10:26,636 Speaker 1: not that we come as a perfect nation, but that 151 00:10:26,836 --> 00:10:29,756 Speaker 1: if we the people work at it, we can become 152 00:10:29,876 --> 00:10:34,196 Speaker 1: a better nation. And perhaps that is the heart of 153 00:10:34,236 --> 00:10:39,316 Speaker 1: the civic religion, if you will, of American democracy. Let's 154 00:10:39,356 --> 00:10:42,356 Speaker 1: turn a little bit to the question of voting, which 155 00:10:42,356 --> 00:10:46,076 Speaker 1: has been one of the central focuses of your career 156 00:10:46,236 --> 00:10:49,636 Speaker 1: as a civil rights advocate, and which was of course 157 00:10:49,676 --> 00:10:53,996 Speaker 1: so close to the center of Lewis's career and life. 158 00:10:54,956 --> 00:10:57,676 Speaker 1: When you think about the Voting Rights Act of nineteen 159 00:10:57,796 --> 00:11:02,196 Speaker 1: sixty five, what do you think its core promise was 160 00:11:02,276 --> 00:11:06,956 Speaker 1: meant to be? I regard Voting Rights Act of nineteen 161 00:11:07,036 --> 00:11:15,076 Speaker 1: sixty five, as a national commitment to a minority inclusion 162 00:11:15,276 --> 00:11:20,276 Speaker 1: principle in our democracy. That is to say that for 163 00:11:20,556 --> 00:11:25,476 Speaker 1: the full sweep of American history, many people in our society, 164 00:11:25,556 --> 00:11:29,996 Speaker 1: African Americans, Latin X people, people in parts of the 165 00:11:30,076 --> 00:11:35,756 Speaker 1: country were excluded from the most basic principle of a democracy, 166 00:11:36,076 --> 00:11:39,956 Speaker 1: which is to participate in self governance. And that exclusion 167 00:11:40,036 --> 00:11:44,396 Speaker 1: happened on account of race and discrimination that was state 168 00:11:44,516 --> 00:11:50,516 Speaker 1: sponsored and enforced by state authorities at the barrel of 169 00:11:50,516 --> 00:11:55,836 Speaker 1: a gun, and or mob violence. And what happened on 170 00:11:55,876 --> 00:12:00,516 Speaker 1: the Edmund Pettus Bridge, and was followed closely by President 171 00:12:00,556 --> 00:12:04,916 Speaker 1: Lyndon Johnson's speech before a joint session of Congress. It 172 00:12:05,076 --> 00:12:11,716 Speaker 1: was a moment in which the gap between our promises 173 00:12:12,036 --> 00:12:16,996 Speaker 1: of equal protection of the laws and the practices on 174 00:12:17,036 --> 00:12:23,596 Speaker 1: the ground of exclusion and segregation was being intentionally narrowed 175 00:12:23,836 --> 00:12:26,356 Speaker 1: in a way that would change the nation. I view 176 00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 1: the effort at civil rights as an effort to narrow 177 00:12:31,076 --> 00:12:36,876 Speaker 1: the gap between our high civic promises and constitutional promises 178 00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:42,156 Speaker 1: and what are too often low practices. John Lewis and 179 00:12:42,356 --> 00:12:44,996 Speaker 1: his brothers and sisters who joined him on that bridge, 180 00:12:45,356 --> 00:12:48,756 Speaker 1: and those who gave their lives before and after that march. 181 00:12:49,236 --> 00:12:52,716 Speaker 1: Many people may not remember that the march itself was 182 00:12:52,756 --> 00:12:57,196 Speaker 1: occasion because of military veteran Jimmy Lee Jackson was killed 183 00:12:57,556 --> 00:13:01,396 Speaker 1: in an earlier voting march by a state trooper or 184 00:13:02,036 --> 00:13:08,316 Speaker 1: police official in Alabama, and his colleagues were so upset 185 00:13:08,796 --> 00:13:12,276 Speaker 1: that Imi Lee Jackson had been killed defending his grandmother 186 00:13:12,316 --> 00:13:16,436 Speaker 1: and mother at a peaceful voting march that Josea Williams said, 187 00:13:16,436 --> 00:13:19,236 Speaker 1: we should take Jimmy Lee Jackson's coffin and we should 188 00:13:19,316 --> 00:13:22,236 Speaker 1: march it all the way to Montgomery, the point being 189 00:13:22,556 --> 00:13:26,916 Speaker 1: that we should put the body of sacrifice of our 190 00:13:26,916 --> 00:13:30,196 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters and lay it bare and expose it 191 00:13:30,236 --> 00:13:33,076 Speaker 1: before the nation so that the world can see what 192 00:13:33,196 --> 00:13:36,036 Speaker 1: we are prepared to give, what we are in fact 193 00:13:36,116 --> 00:13:40,756 Speaker 1: giving in service of equality, and that to me is 194 00:13:40,796 --> 00:13:42,956 Speaker 1: the heart of the Voting Rights Act. It was a 195 00:13:43,116 --> 00:13:46,276 Speaker 1: national commitment that said we are going to use the 196 00:13:46,396 --> 00:13:51,076 Speaker 1: power of the federal government and of state authority not 197 00:13:51,196 --> 00:13:54,796 Speaker 1: only to subjugate, and not to turn a blind eye 198 00:13:55,036 --> 00:13:59,396 Speaker 1: while state government subjugate, but to elevate the voices of 199 00:13:59,476 --> 00:14:04,036 Speaker 1: democratic participation in the polity and to stand for a 200 00:14:04,116 --> 00:14:07,836 Speaker 1: minority inclusion principle that we cannot turn back from. That's 201 00:14:07,876 --> 00:14:10,756 Speaker 1: how I regard the voting rights. We'll be right back. 202 00:14:20,916 --> 00:14:24,676 Speaker 1: The minority inclusion principle that you're talking about ended up 203 00:14:24,716 --> 00:14:27,196 Speaker 1: being embodied in different parts of the Voting Rights Act 204 00:14:27,276 --> 00:14:29,756 Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty five, but one of the most important 205 00:14:29,756 --> 00:14:35,836 Speaker 1: components was a practical process called preclearance, according to which 206 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:38,076 Speaker 1: if you're in a part of the country with a history, 207 00:14:38,356 --> 00:14:44,636 Speaker 1: a demonstrated history of race based voting exclusion, before you 208 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:49,676 Speaker 1: can change the way that you district and assign voters 209 00:14:49,716 --> 00:14:51,796 Speaker 1: to different districts, which of course is crucial to how 210 00:14:51,876 --> 00:14:55,396 Speaker 1: voting outcomes are produced, you had to go to the 211 00:14:55,436 --> 00:14:59,236 Speaker 1: Department of Justice and get the Department of Justice to 212 00:14:59,436 --> 00:15:03,116 Speaker 1: review your plan, and then very probably you'd have to 213 00:15:03,116 --> 00:15:05,276 Speaker 1: go to a court and get the court as well 214 00:15:05,636 --> 00:15:07,996 Speaker 1: to have a look at that plan before you could 215 00:15:07,996 --> 00:15:13,316 Speaker 1: make a chance. That practice, which remained in place from 216 00:15:13,396 --> 00:15:16,596 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five and was then renewed by Congress a 217 00:15:16,636 --> 00:15:20,796 Speaker 1: couple of times, came under attack in a very important 218 00:15:21,076 --> 00:15:25,476 Speaker 1: voting rights case, landmark case called Shelby County against Holder 219 00:15:26,076 --> 00:15:29,516 Speaker 1: that the Supreme Court decided in twenty thirteen, and you 220 00:15:29,556 --> 00:15:31,876 Speaker 1: were one of the people who argued that case before 221 00:15:31,876 --> 00:15:35,836 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court while working for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, 222 00:15:36,596 --> 00:15:40,156 Speaker 1: tell us about what that experience was like, and then 223 00:15:40,436 --> 00:15:42,596 Speaker 1: through that maybe tell us about how the case came 224 00:15:42,596 --> 00:15:46,596 Speaker 1: out and what you feel about it. Absolutely, so, Shelby County, 225 00:15:46,996 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 1: I believe is rightfully regarded as one of the most 226 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:56,316 Speaker 1: significant civil rights cases of this generation. Unfortunately, and I 227 00:15:56,356 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 1: will begin at the end, it stands in some ways 228 00:15:59,596 --> 00:16:04,436 Speaker 1: for the proposition not only that a particularly effective piece 229 00:16:04,956 --> 00:16:09,156 Speaker 1: of the Voting Rights Act has been rendered inoperable, the 230 00:16:09,236 --> 00:16:13,356 Speaker 1: preclearance provision of which you spoke, but also the case 231 00:16:13,396 --> 00:16:18,116 Speaker 1: stands for the proposition that there was a signal that 232 00:16:18,156 --> 00:16:23,596 Speaker 1: the country was again in retreat and stepping away from 233 00:16:23,876 --> 00:16:28,076 Speaker 1: the minority inclusion principle that had been so central to 234 00:16:28,156 --> 00:16:32,076 Speaker 1: our march toward justice and our march toward freedom. And 235 00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:37,556 Speaker 1: so Shelby County presented those issues. Essentially, the question before 236 00:16:37,596 --> 00:16:41,036 Speaker 1: the court, not the technical legal question, but the question 237 00:16:41,116 --> 00:16:43,716 Speaker 1: that I think people should understand was before the Court 238 00:16:45,236 --> 00:16:48,796 Speaker 1: is the fact that we have made progress in large 239 00:16:48,836 --> 00:16:52,956 Speaker 1: measure because we have had protections in place, and because 240 00:16:52,956 --> 00:16:56,996 Speaker 1: we turned away from a system of exclusion and discrimination 241 00:16:57,356 --> 00:17:00,196 Speaker 1: to a system of minority inclusion. Is the fact of 242 00:17:00,236 --> 00:17:05,716 Speaker 1: that progress evidence that we should abandon our effort to 243 00:17:05,756 --> 00:17:10,036 Speaker 1: continue to perfect the union to make more progress? Right? Essentially, 244 00:17:10,036 --> 00:17:13,116 Speaker 1: there were two roads that were diverging as the Court 245 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:16,756 Speaker 1: was presented with Shelby County. Should the improvement that we 246 00:17:16,836 --> 00:17:19,916 Speaker 1: have seen from the time of nineteen sixty five until 247 00:17:20,276 --> 00:17:23,156 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. Should that leave us in the position that 248 00:17:23,196 --> 00:17:26,316 Speaker 1: there's enough progress and when we can step away? Or 249 00:17:26,516 --> 00:17:31,036 Speaker 1: must we continue to follow consistent with the judgment of Congress, 250 00:17:31,156 --> 00:17:35,036 Speaker 1: including a unanimous United States Senate that voted ninety eight 251 00:17:35,116 --> 00:17:39,036 Speaker 1: zero in support of the reauthorization of the preclarance provisions 252 00:17:39,036 --> 00:17:41,716 Speaker 1: of the Voting Rights Act? Should we continue to do 253 00:17:41,796 --> 00:17:45,156 Speaker 1: more to do better to perfect the Union? As I 254 00:17:45,196 --> 00:17:48,556 Speaker 1: walked in the courtroom to argue the Shelby County case, 255 00:17:48,956 --> 00:17:51,276 Speaker 1: it was the second time that I had defended these 256 00:17:51,276 --> 00:17:53,996 Speaker 1: provisions of the Voting Rights Act before the United States 257 00:17:54,036 --> 00:17:58,996 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. The Northwest Austin case presented a very similar question. 258 00:17:59,396 --> 00:18:02,236 Speaker 1: It's my understanding that the first Supreme Court argument that 259 00:18:02,316 --> 00:18:06,796 Speaker 1: John Lewis ever attended was the Northwest Austin case. He 260 00:18:06,916 --> 00:18:10,156 Speaker 1: was there again on the day of the Shelby County argument, 261 00:18:10,356 --> 00:18:14,396 Speaker 1: to witness the defense of the statute that he literally 262 00:18:14,436 --> 00:18:17,156 Speaker 1: had given blood for, and that he knew people who 263 00:18:17,196 --> 00:18:20,156 Speaker 1: had died for. He wanted to be present. He wanted 264 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:23,436 Speaker 1: to bear witness, to see our government at work, and 265 00:18:23,476 --> 00:18:26,556 Speaker 1: to stand again on the front lines of the fight 266 00:18:26,636 --> 00:18:30,716 Speaker 1: for equality, and to be in the courtroom. It was 267 00:18:30,756 --> 00:18:34,596 Speaker 1: a weighty responsibility. I said of the earlier case that 268 00:18:34,676 --> 00:18:40,436 Speaker 1: it was humbling, exhilarating, and terrifying all at once. All 269 00:18:40,436 --> 00:18:43,436 Speaker 1: of those emotions are coursing through your body as you 270 00:18:43,556 --> 00:18:47,036 Speaker 1: rise to the podium in some ways, to try and 271 00:18:47,156 --> 00:18:51,316 Speaker 1: speak what many people regard as a self evident truth 272 00:18:51,796 --> 00:18:56,236 Speaker 1: to power that discrimination continues in America, and that voting 273 00:18:56,236 --> 00:19:00,716 Speaker 1: discrimination continues, and that the protections that Congress had committed 274 00:19:00,716 --> 00:19:03,676 Speaker 1: to over a long period of time remained important and 275 00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:06,676 Speaker 1: were doing vital work. That was the self evident truth. 276 00:19:06,876 --> 00:19:10,156 Speaker 1: In some ways, you feel as if you and your 277 00:19:10,196 --> 00:19:14,276 Speaker 1: presentation is trying to prove that the sun will rise tomorrow. 278 00:19:14,636 --> 00:19:18,236 Speaker 1: It is that self evident. And it was difficult to 279 00:19:18,276 --> 00:19:21,476 Speaker 1: be there and to see the extent to which even 280 00:19:21,556 --> 00:19:24,796 Speaker 1: during the oral argument, the Court was signaling that it 281 00:19:24,876 --> 00:19:29,476 Speaker 1: was going to cast aside under our constitutional system, the 282 00:19:29,596 --> 00:19:32,956 Speaker 1: judgment of the Congress, and I think we have seen 283 00:19:33,036 --> 00:19:35,756 Speaker 1: on the backside what has happened in the wake of 284 00:19:35,796 --> 00:19:39,116 Speaker 1: Shelby County. That is, those things that were self evident 285 00:19:39,316 --> 00:19:41,956 Speaker 1: have proven to be true, and that many are taking 286 00:19:41,996 --> 00:19:45,116 Speaker 1: the signal that the federal government is in retreat from 287 00:19:45,196 --> 00:19:49,836 Speaker 1: minority voter protection and those who wish to win elections 288 00:19:49,876 --> 00:19:55,236 Speaker 1: through nefarious means are trying to have their way. The 289 00:19:55,316 --> 00:19:57,956 Speaker 1: day that the case came down, I remember very vividly 290 00:19:57,956 --> 00:19:59,716 Speaker 1: sitting at my computer doing what I always do in 291 00:19:59,756 --> 00:20:02,156 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court decides it's big cases, you know, they 292 00:20:02,236 --> 00:20:04,276 Speaker 1: come down, I get them on the computer. I read 293 00:20:04,316 --> 00:20:06,956 Speaker 1: them as fast as I humanly can. Then I sit 294 00:20:06,996 --> 00:20:10,276 Speaker 1: down and I write something for my my column about it. 295 00:20:10,436 --> 00:20:14,796 Speaker 1: And my opening line that day was the Civil Rights 296 00:20:14,796 --> 00:20:19,236 Speaker 1: era ended. Today. I wonder, looking back at this in retrospect, 297 00:20:19,276 --> 00:20:22,716 Speaker 1: if I overstated the case in your view. What I meant, 298 00:20:22,756 --> 00:20:25,956 Speaker 1: of course, was that symbolically, the Voting Rights Act was 299 00:20:25,996 --> 00:20:30,156 Speaker 1: at the very core of the civil rights movement, and 300 00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:35,236 Speaker 1: because it had been renewed by Congress, Congress had maintained 301 00:20:35,956 --> 00:20:39,556 Speaker 1: the momentum in some sense of the civil rights movement, 302 00:20:40,316 --> 00:20:43,596 Speaker 1: even in the face of conservative opposition to it sometimes 303 00:20:44,236 --> 00:20:48,236 Speaker 1: and that the Supreme Court, by this extreme activist decision, 304 00:20:48,996 --> 00:20:52,356 Speaker 1: was blocking the progress of the civil rights movement. When 305 00:20:52,356 --> 00:20:54,836 Speaker 1: you look back at it from a distance of now 306 00:20:55,316 --> 00:20:57,716 Speaker 1: just a little more than seven years, and you think 307 00:20:57,716 --> 00:21:01,036 Speaker 1: about the consequences of that decision, do you feel as 308 00:21:01,036 --> 00:21:03,316 Speaker 1: though the civil rights movement was in some important ways 309 00:21:03,356 --> 00:21:06,796 Speaker 1: stymied or blocked, or do you think that there have 310 00:21:06,836 --> 00:21:10,356 Speaker 1: been creative ways for activists and others to try to 311 00:21:10,396 --> 00:21:15,236 Speaker 1: continue to press for voting rights notwithstanding the great limit 312 00:21:15,436 --> 00:21:19,436 Speaker 1: that the Court placed on this extraordinary tool, the Voting 313 00:21:19,516 --> 00:21:23,996 Speaker 1: Rights Act. It's an important question, Noah, and I think 314 00:21:24,076 --> 00:21:28,436 Speaker 1: for the answer, I am reminded of the work of 315 00:21:28,716 --> 00:21:33,836 Speaker 1: Alexander Kasar. Alex Kasar wrote an important book about the 316 00:21:33,916 --> 00:21:35,956 Speaker 1: history of the right to vote, and one of the 317 00:21:36,036 --> 00:21:41,436 Speaker 1: central tenants of Professor Kaisar's book is that there is 318 00:21:41,476 --> 00:21:47,196 Speaker 1: a dominant and somewhat ubiquitous understanding or theory out there 319 00:21:47,836 --> 00:21:53,756 Speaker 1: that America and American democracy has been on a path 320 00:21:54,316 --> 00:21:58,596 Speaker 1: of unidirectional progress. That is to say, that things always 321 00:21:58,596 --> 00:22:02,676 Speaker 1: get better, we're always improving, and things are always moving forward. 322 00:22:03,276 --> 00:22:06,996 Speaker 1: What case are, among other things, added to the conversation 323 00:22:07,676 --> 00:22:09,596 Speaker 1: is that when you look at the story of voting 324 00:22:09,596 --> 00:22:14,076 Speaker 1: in America, what you see is not a pattern of 325 00:22:14,596 --> 00:22:18,676 Speaker 1: unidirectional progress, of a march that is ever forward. But 326 00:22:18,796 --> 00:22:22,796 Speaker 1: what you see is a history of ebbs and flows, 327 00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:27,796 Speaker 1: concerted efforts to push and expand the reach of the franchise, 328 00:22:28,316 --> 00:22:33,636 Speaker 1: and then reactions against those pushes for greater democratic inclusion, 329 00:22:34,116 --> 00:22:38,156 Speaker 1: and rearguard efforts that push back and try and limit 330 00:22:38,196 --> 00:22:43,116 Speaker 1: the franchise. And so, because I had the understanding of 331 00:22:43,156 --> 00:22:46,876 Speaker 1: the nature of the struggle for voting rights, perhaps for 332 00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:50,436 Speaker 1: civil rights more broadly, that it's action and reaction, that 333 00:22:50,516 --> 00:22:54,676 Speaker 1: it's not just a unidirectional march forward, I understood that 334 00:22:54,716 --> 00:22:59,836 Speaker 1: Shelby County was a very disappointing and important mark on 335 00:22:59,956 --> 00:23:03,876 Speaker 1: the course of civil rights and voting history, but would 336 00:23:03,916 --> 00:23:06,516 Speaker 1: not be the final word, would not be the end 337 00:23:07,036 --> 00:23:10,636 Speaker 1: of the nation's quest for civil rights, but was perhaps 338 00:23:10,716 --> 00:23:14,116 Speaker 1: the end of a chapter that signaled that there were 339 00:23:14,156 --> 00:23:17,556 Speaker 1: gathering clouds ahead, and that there were difficult days ahead, 340 00:23:17,836 --> 00:23:21,076 Speaker 1: but that those of us who remain, like John Lewis, 341 00:23:21,756 --> 00:23:25,236 Speaker 1: undaunted in the face of long odds, would continue to 342 00:23:25,236 --> 00:23:28,436 Speaker 1: put our shoulder against the Boulder and push for greater 343 00:23:28,516 --> 00:23:31,596 Speaker 1: inclusion and to try and move the country forward again. 344 00:23:31,916 --> 00:23:35,236 Speaker 1: So I bring that understanding to the fight for civil rights, 345 00:23:35,316 --> 00:23:39,396 Speaker 1: that sometimes it's faced with setbacks, and that what's important 346 00:23:39,876 --> 00:23:42,836 Speaker 1: is to be unyielding in the face of those setbacks 347 00:23:42,996 --> 00:23:47,436 Speaker 1: and to push and demand more. You yourself have had 348 00:23:47,476 --> 00:23:51,396 Speaker 1: an extraordinary career fighting those setbacks and trying to be 349 00:23:51,476 --> 00:23:55,036 Speaker 1: an advocate for and being an advocate for civil rights. 350 00:23:55,276 --> 00:23:58,076 Speaker 1: I know you went to Connecticut College, where my brother 351 00:23:58,676 --> 00:24:01,356 Speaker 1: teaches in the philosophy department, a college that is an 352 00:24:01,396 --> 00:24:03,836 Speaker 1: amazing place. Then you went to ny U Law School, 353 00:24:03,836 --> 00:24:07,876 Speaker 1: where I myself started my academic career, and then you 354 00:24:07,956 --> 00:24:12,636 Speaker 1: worked for many years CPLDF and then had various responsibilities 355 00:24:12,636 --> 00:24:16,556 Speaker 1: and positions in the Obama administration, and then working at 356 00:24:16,596 --> 00:24:19,396 Speaker 1: the Senate as well, and now you're a Commissioner of 357 00:24:19,436 --> 00:24:23,716 Speaker 1: the US Commission on Civil Rights. When you think about 358 00:24:23,756 --> 00:24:26,756 Speaker 1: what you can do going forward, and you're still very 359 00:24:26,796 --> 00:24:30,116 Speaker 1: young man, when you think about the next phase of 360 00:24:30,156 --> 00:24:34,036 Speaker 1: your own life and connect that to the cause of 361 00:24:34,076 --> 00:24:38,156 Speaker 1: civil rights, what strikes you as the biggest challenges and 362 00:24:38,196 --> 00:24:41,396 Speaker 1: where would you like to be able to make contributions 363 00:24:41,476 --> 00:24:45,396 Speaker 1: in the next phase of your own professional life. Thank 364 00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:49,516 Speaker 1: you for that question. And I think about the fights 365 00:24:49,516 --> 00:24:53,996 Speaker 1: for educational opportunity and the inequities that we see both 366 00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:58,316 Speaker 1: in K through twelve education and in higher education, and 367 00:24:58,396 --> 00:25:02,876 Speaker 1: how important education is as being a tool in some 368 00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:08,276 Speaker 1: sort of civic transcendence. It is a pathway to opportunity. 369 00:25:08,556 --> 00:25:11,276 Speaker 1: I think, of course, about the issues of criminal justice 370 00:25:11,596 --> 00:25:16,996 Speaker 1: and the relationship between minority communities and law enforcement across 371 00:25:17,036 --> 00:25:19,676 Speaker 1: the nation. I think about the path that the nation 372 00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:25,996 Speaker 1: has walked of increasingly militaristic policing tactics, but the opportunity 373 00:25:25,996 --> 00:25:31,036 Speaker 1: and the possibility that is there to revisit the relationship 374 00:25:31,116 --> 00:25:36,636 Speaker 1: between law enforcement and minority communities and all communities. I 375 00:25:36,796 --> 00:25:40,156 Speaker 1: remain committed to the idea that there is a way 376 00:25:40,196 --> 00:25:44,716 Speaker 1: to align our democratic institutions where we are not fearing 377 00:25:44,916 --> 00:25:48,196 Speaker 1: the differences that exist in our society, but are regarding 378 00:25:48,196 --> 00:25:50,796 Speaker 1: them as a strength that we can commit to and 379 00:25:50,956 --> 00:25:55,036 Speaker 1: lift up voices in service of the common idea that 380 00:25:55,076 --> 00:25:59,036 Speaker 1: we share that we are stronger together than we are 381 00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:04,116 Speaker 1: when we curry divisiveness in the people. And so I 382 00:26:04,156 --> 00:26:07,476 Speaker 1: hope to try and use the remaining days that I 383 00:26:07,556 --> 00:26:09,956 Speaker 1: have not feeling as much of a young man as 384 00:26:10,156 --> 00:26:13,236 Speaker 1: I once was, but hopefully there are some more miles 385 00:26:13,316 --> 00:26:16,196 Speaker 1: on the odometer to continue to work at these things 386 00:26:16,396 --> 00:26:18,996 Speaker 1: in large and small ways. And the last thing that 387 00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:20,716 Speaker 1: I would say on this point, because it's such an 388 00:26:20,716 --> 00:26:26,516 Speaker 1: important question you've asked, is that John Lewis understood that 389 00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:29,516 Speaker 1: he was able to be a catalyst for change. He 390 00:26:29,556 --> 00:26:32,116 Speaker 1: was able to put himself on the front lines, but 391 00:26:32,156 --> 00:26:36,756 Speaker 1: he was also able to recognize that there were generations 392 00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:39,516 Speaker 1: of people that were coming behind him, and that their 393 00:26:39,636 --> 00:26:44,316 Speaker 1: voices and contributions and ideas were no less valuable than 394 00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:47,276 Speaker 1: what his contributions had been in his day. And so 395 00:26:47,316 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: one of the ways that I have tried to carry 396 00:26:49,596 --> 00:26:53,156 Speaker 1: forward the lessons of the civil rights movement is that 397 00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:56,796 Speaker 1: piece of transcendence that when people are coming together for 398 00:26:56,956 --> 00:27:00,756 Speaker 1: collective aims, you should not feel that any leader or 399 00:27:00,796 --> 00:27:04,876 Speaker 1: any one person as all the right ideas or has 400 00:27:04,996 --> 00:27:08,316 Speaker 1: the single path to improve things. You have to make 401 00:27:08,396 --> 00:27:11,756 Speaker 1: space for those who come from different places and at 402 00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 1: different times to try and advance the ideal of perfecting 403 00:27:16,556 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 1: the union. I want to thank you for reflecting on 404 00:27:20,556 --> 00:27:23,276 Speaker 1: the legacy of John Lewis so thoughtfully, and also for 405 00:27:23,636 --> 00:27:26,756 Speaker 1: picking up his torch and carrying it in your own career, 406 00:27:27,236 --> 00:27:30,436 Speaker 1: and for helping guide us in that direction going forward. 407 00:27:30,516 --> 00:27:33,436 Speaker 1: I'm really really grateful, not just for the conversation but 408 00:27:34,116 --> 00:27:36,476 Speaker 1: the work that you've been doing. Thank you all the best, 409 00:27:36,836 --> 00:27:46,516 Speaker 1: Take care. Talking to Dabo about the legacy of John 410 00:27:46,596 --> 00:27:49,636 Speaker 1: Lewis is a powerful reminder that we all deserve to 411 00:27:49,716 --> 00:27:52,916 Speaker 1: feel some pride in being citizens of a country that 412 00:27:52,956 --> 00:27:56,836 Speaker 1: could produce an extraordinary person like John Lewis, but also 413 00:27:56,876 --> 00:28:00,356 Speaker 1: that we bear responsibility as citizens to try to continue 414 00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:04,236 Speaker 1: the fight that John Lewis had to pursue in order 415 00:28:04,516 --> 00:28:08,876 Speaker 1: to try to achieve equal rights for all Americans. Our 416 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:12,356 Speaker 1: legacy is a complicated and mixed one. The history of 417 00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:15,556 Speaker 1: racism is not merely in the past, but continues into 418 00:28:15,556 --> 00:28:18,836 Speaker 1: the present. The struggle for civil rights is not over. 419 00:28:19,436 --> 00:28:22,156 Speaker 1: People like Dabo are continuing to fight it, but that's 420 00:28:22,196 --> 00:28:24,636 Speaker 1: not enough anymore than it was enough for John Lewis 421 00:28:24,636 --> 00:28:27,556 Speaker 1: to do so. Dabo reminds us that we all have 422 00:28:27,676 --> 00:28:30,796 Speaker 1: to continue in that challenge, and that ultimately, if we 423 00:28:30,836 --> 00:28:34,716 Speaker 1: want to oversee and supervise all of the forces of 424 00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:37,956 Speaker 1: our government, including the police, we need to do it 425 00:28:38,196 --> 00:28:41,996 Speaker 1: via democracy. That means we need to speak, We need 426 00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:45,596 Speaker 1: to think, we need to vote. Until the next time 427 00:28:45,676 --> 00:28:49,396 Speaker 1: I speak to you, be careful, be safe, and be well. 428 00:28:51,436 --> 00:28:54,476 Speaker 1: Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 429 00:28:54,516 --> 00:28:57,836 Speaker 1: producer is Lydia Jane Cott, with mastering by Jason Gambrell 430 00:28:57,996 --> 00:29:02,156 Speaker 1: and Martin Gonzalez. Our showrunner is Sophia mckibbon. Our theme 431 00:29:02,196 --> 00:29:05,156 Speaker 1: music is composed by Luis GERA special thanks to the 432 00:29:05,196 --> 00:29:09,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Lobel. I'm 433 00:29:09,556 --> 00:29:13,116 Speaker 1: Noah Feldman. I also write a regular column for Bloomberg Opinion, 434 00:29:13,356 --> 00:29:16,556 Speaker 1: which you can find at bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. 435 00:29:17,276 --> 00:29:20,876 Speaker 1: To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg 436 00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:25,156 Speaker 1: dot com slash Podcasts. And one last thing. I just 437 00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:28,196 Speaker 1: wrote a book called The Arab Winter, a Tragedy. I 438 00:29:28,196 --> 00:29:30,636 Speaker 1: would be delighted if you checked it out. If you 439 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:33,516 Speaker 1: liked what you heard today, please write a review or 440 00:29:33,636 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 1: tell a friend. You can always let me know what 441 00:29:35,796 --> 00:29:38,836 Speaker 1: you think on Twitter. My handle is Noah R. Feldman. 442 00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:41,036 Speaker 1: This is Deep Background.