WEBVTT - Death Row Club 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:02.840 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:13.240 The Death Row Club. Let that sink in the Death 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:19.319 Row Club. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:29.240 want to thank you for being with us The Death 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:34.400 Row Club. Is it real or is it just a 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:40.159 book by Victoria Visquez? Now this is a book of fiction. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.559 In my world, I deal with real serial killers like 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:47.120 Ted Bundy. 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:50.240 I still have a sense of disbelief that this man 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:54.120 that I loved and that was seemed to be such 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:56.800 a great guy could go out and do such horrific things. 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:58.640 It's just so hard to accept. 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:02.400 I'm sure you've asked yourself, why not me? 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:08.200 Completely? And I hate to even say this because it 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:11.440 makes him sound normal, But I do think he loved. 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:15.039 His I heard a story told by one of his attorneys. 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.679 He said Ted told him that he would play games 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:22.000 with mice, then he would let some of them live 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.279 and make some of them die. And to me, that's us. 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:31.000 That from our friends at ABC. Isn't he charming? Well 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.800 he's having supper with Satan? Now, how many victims did 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.920 he have? I don't think we really have an accurate 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:44.080 body count, which leads me to another real life serial killer. 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:49.480 Let's just go with Israel Keys. 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:53.880 I had that place that there staked out one actually 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:54.720 two or three knights. 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.760 And then I had a park. 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:02.360 A couple of parks here in town, so I could 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:08.679 ride my bike to and those staked out. And yeah, 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:11.760 but there's there's still a couple of gallons during a 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:13.079 shovel steps to do. 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:17.079 Back when I was smart, I would. 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:21.520 Do it. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:30.919 I would let them come to me. Interesting this remote area, 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:35.240 ye kind of go to a remote area that's. 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:39.120 Not anywhere near where you live, but that other. 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:44.040 People go to as well. You might not get exactly 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.720 what You're not much to choose from in the manner 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:47.200 of speaking. 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:52.280 But there's also no witnesses really originally fields around. 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.520 So as a matter of fact, and we think his 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.760 last victim's murder, that would be Samantha Koenig, a beautiful 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:06.320 young Alaska barista who was kidnapped from her coffee stand. 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:13.560 He actually sewed her eyes open applied makeup. This is 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.040 of course, after sex assaulting her for hours and hours 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:19.480 and hours, turning up the music really loudly so no 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:23.440 one would hear her screaming. He sows her eyes open, 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.600 covers her in makeup, and takes a blurry photo and 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:33.560 actually asks for ransom. That's Issuel keys killed kits all 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:40.320 around the country. He specifically liked to hunt at parks, 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:48.160 at RV camps, at camping sites. Animal I don't have 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.200 to think really hard to come up with BTK buying 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.840 torture kill the dogcatcher Dennis Raider. 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.640 I was willing to have a sexual fantasy, so I 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:01.720 brought my hit kit and low and behold, her car 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.360 was there. I thought, geez, she's not supposed to be home. 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.760 So I very carefully snuck into the house kind of 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.640 like a cat burglar, and after checking the house, she 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:15.800 wasn't there. So about that time the doors rattled, so 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.320 I went back to one of the bedrooms and hiding 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:21.560 back there in one of the bedrooms, I waited till 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:26.320 wee hours in the morning, and then proceeded to sneak 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.440 into her bedroom and lit the lights on what looked 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:31.240 like I think the bathroom lights. I just studied want 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.320 to flip her lights on, and she screamed, and I 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.200 jumped on the bed and strangled her. Manually. 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.600 That from our friends at k w C H and 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.200 then of course let me just throw in for good measure. 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:48.880 Brian Coburgerer who murdered for beautiful young Idaho Stevens. I 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.320 will never forget this nine one one call. 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:57.360 Tell me exactly what's going on. 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.360 One of our one of the roommates. 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.320 Who's passed out and she's drunk, class and short wa yup? 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.839 Okay, Oh and they saw some man in their house 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:04.599 house nice. 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:08.480 Yeah, are you in the patient? 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:08.760 Okay? 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:11.800 I need someone to keep the phone not passing it around. 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:14.919 Can I just tell you what happened? Very much? What 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:16.440 is going on currently? 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:17.839 Is someone passed out right now? 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.000 I don't really know what pretty much? Victorian? 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:22.839 Okay, I need to know what's. 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:24.640 Going on right now. If someone is passed out, can 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:25.280 you find. 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:26.360 That out y'all. 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.479 I'll come come on with musical check what we have 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:49.560 to put she's not waking up? 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:54.320 Okay, one moment. 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:56.880 I'm getting help started that way, we'll give me. 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:17.120 The list goes on and on. The Death Row Club 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:21.760 Victoria us guess joining us. First question? 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:28.000 Why so, First of all, thank you so much for 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:36.679 having me, Nancy. I was fascinated by the idea of 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:42.880 being linked to a family member and living under kind 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:48.400 of the pall of what they've done. Well, I personally 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:51.160 do not have any family members who are serial killers. 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.440 This was in some way inspired. 0:06:54.120 --> 0:07:00.360 By hold on, Nelly, you sure you sure you know? 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:02.240 Don't have a found when they are relative it's a 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:04.760 serial I'm so not kidding right now. I want you 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:06.159 to listen to this. 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:08.520 And there's a knock on my door and he said 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.320 he was the FBI. And then he says, your dad 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:15.560 has been arrested as BTK and I was like, I 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.280 think I'm going to pass out. I think reality was 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.200 starting to creep in and I felt my stomach just 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.480 twist realizing it could be true. 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.320 Got from our friends at ABC, Dennis Radar just evil, 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:35.760 evil incarnate. That's his daughter who is amazing and living 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:42.679 with exactly what Victoria Visquez is writing about. And this book, 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.000 I got to tell you, is amazing. I'm giving her 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:47.600 a hard time, like, why would you want to write 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:53.080 about a serial killer. They're odious, they're horrible, they're the devil. 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:57.480 But what you're writing about, Victoria, I understood, is about 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:03.200 family that can't believe it, they're suspicious and what it 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:08.040 does to them. And you know a lot of people, Victoria, 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:11.360 they're like, hey, that's the daughter of a serial killer 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:18.000 screw her. But these family members are innocent. They're innocent, 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:22.960 and then their whole world is just shattered when they 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:27.320 find out they've been living with evil. Okay, where'd you 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.080 get the idea? 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:35.320 So this was in part inspired by something that happened 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:39.880 to me when I was in high school. I had 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.720 a teacher that I was very, very close with, but 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:48.040 then two years after I graduated, it was revealed that 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:52.760 he was a dangerous sexual predator. He was arrested in 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.199 a car with a fifteen year old student, and when 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:00.520 I found out, I was completely blindsided. I had appsbsolutely 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.720 no idea. Again, we were so close. He inspired me 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.400 to want to become a teacher myself, and all I 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.200 could think was, if I was so caught out by 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.880 my teacher turning out to be a predator, then what 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.440 must it be like when the police come knocking on 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.520 your door telling you about all of the women that 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:21.000 your father has murdered? 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.240 Oh my stars, Oh my stars, you know what you're 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.920 reminding me of. You reminded me of a murder case 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:31.280 I prosecuted, and one of my star witnesses. I had 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.840 no eyewitness to the murder. And you're about to hear, 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:36.520 I had to dig the bottom of the barrel. But 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.280 you got to take your witnesses as you find them. 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:42.960 I found a witness, not an eyewitness, but that could 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:48.679 help me in the timeline, who was a convicted rapist. 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.559 Now his story was very different than what the record reflected. 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:56.160 But I had to drive all around Atlanta with this 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:00.160 guy in my beat up Honda day and night, might 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.200 trying to take pictures him to show me where this happened, 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:08.600 where that happened. And he testified, And there were times 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.360 in the car Victoria of us guess, oh you know, Glad, 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:16.319 I go, I can't believe this guy is convicted rapest. 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.080 It was hard to take in, but I knew it 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.240 to be true. Okay, So that's where you got the idea. 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.960 Yeah, absolutely, And I think that just what you're saying. Nicola, 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:33.280 the main character in the novel, even after her father's arrested, 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.880 even after she knows that her father murdered five women, 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.920 including her best friend from college, she still loves him. 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.720 That's not something you can just, you know, turn off 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:48.920 that easily. I mean, I still after my teacher was arrested, 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:52.320 I still have, you know, fond thoughts about him despite 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.240 the fact that I know he has done disgusting things. 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:59.200 It's hard to flip that switch mentally and be like, 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.280 this person who was so important to me is actually 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.440 like you're saying, is sick as a predator? Is you know, 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:07.160 a disgusting human being. 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:07.800 It's hard. 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.439 Okay, I'm gonna have to go to a shrink right 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:16.840 now because you're scaring everybody in the studio by saying 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.559 I know that he's a child predator, but I still 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:25.960 like him. 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:27.839 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:36.200 Doctor Rachel Toles helped me. Doctor Toles clinical forensic psychologist, 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:41.080 author of a brand new book coming out, Inventing the Psychopath. Ooh, 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.400 that's a great title, How a convenient myth makes the 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:49.840 world more dangerous? Okay, Doctor Rachel Toles fits in exactly 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:54.200 with what Victoria is saying. And I'm not saying she's wrong. 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:58.719 I'm saying that phenomena is scary, and I live through 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:04.079 that in court, particularicularly in child sex abuse cases, because 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:09.319 the family, the wife, they're like, oh, no, that's not true, 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:13.440 that didn't happen. He would never he did, and I 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.360 proved it and the family would be furious. I'll get 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.559 my tires, slashed my door at my house, kicked in 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:23.920 my mailbox, knocked over, because no body would believe it. 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:26.320 Is it a matter of they can't believe it? Because 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:31.040 that's giz. She's super smart. This book is amazing, the 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.679 Death Row Club. But she still can't take in that 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:42.000 that teacher is a pervert that prayed on children because 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:45.320 that was not her experience with him. What is that phenomenon, 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:46.040 doctor Rachel. 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.439 Well, it's obviously really complicated for a lot of reasons. 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.800 I mean, human beings are complicated. So I think that, 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.559 for example, when we get to the murder, that suddenly 0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:00.559 defines the entire person. So everything that came before murders 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.560 is just gone. And I think when you mentioned this 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.160 guy was a pervert, this teacher, those are absolutely things 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:11.040 he did. They were despicable, and those are real things 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.040 and those are a part of him. But I think 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.839 where we as a society and the culture where we 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.720 go is that we the minute we find out of 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:25.000 a despicable act, we define the entire person by that act. 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.720 And that doesn't mean there's no excuse for these actions. 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.079 So that's absolutely not what I'm saying. But what I 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.679 am saying is there's also other parts of a human 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.680 being that are real. For example, I mean here we're 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.480 talking about somebody who's saying, well, I still love my 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.040 father or I still care for my teacher, and that's 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.560 very real and that doesn't go away. And so then 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.319 it's a matter of being able, as a daughter or 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.920 a person who loves somebody to hold two different people 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.760 in your mind, and you have to compartmentalize. And that's 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:59.959 really what we're talking about here. So there's a couple 0:13:59.920 --> 0:14:04.120 of things. There's the person who murders, and that's the 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.199 other thing. It's like, how does a daughter wrap her 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.640 head around the fact that did my father really love me? 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:14.160 And maybe no, yes, my father really loved me. He 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:17.920 was capable of love, and he was capable of doing 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.840 this despicable thing. So there's that element to it. But 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.400 then there's of course the compartmentalization. How does a human being, 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.920 how are they able to love their daughters or their 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:32.480 wives and then go out at night and murder sex 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.080 workers or people who they deem as less human. And 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.560 that's what I think we need to be looking at here. 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.080 Detor Tolls, in addition to being a clinical and forensic 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.000 psychologist and author of a new book. I think he 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.960 may be clairvoyant, because I was just about to bring 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:56.000 up Rex Heureman, who is Lucifer? Before I show him, 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:00.360 Let's look at his many many victims. They went through 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:08.640 unimaginable suffering torture in his underground torture chamber that his 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.040 wife never noticed, and he, by the way, has made 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.560 at least one million dollars reportedly. Hey, let me see 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.760 us guests while I'm talking about human These are real 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:24.960 serial killers. Okay. His wife didn't notice the underground sex 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:29.480 and murder dungeon in her home, and she's reportedly made 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:36.280 a million dollar sum for a documentary with quotes about 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:40.240 her life and the trial and so forth. Asa Ullerup 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.680 is her name. I don't know about her, but I 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.560 have no doubt that his children had no idea that 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:54.520 Hureman was a serial killer and are likely going through 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.000 what you're talking about. And I'm not saying it's wrong. 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:03.840 I'm saying it's It's bizarre and hard to understand, but 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:09.440 is real. Okay, listen, do you want to stand up. 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.680 By cleaning guilty to a charge that's the same as 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:13.520 you from the God trial and the found guilty of 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.160 that charge, yes, do you want to stand up by cleaning? 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:18.120 Guilty of waving a number of very important rents. 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.160 Rex Yeerman will be held responsible for the nineteen ninety 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:28.120 three murder of Sondra Castia, the nineteen ninety six murder 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:33.240 of Karen Vergata, the two thousand murder of Valerie Mack, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:37.600 the two thousand and three murder of Jessica Taylor, the 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:42.360 two thousand and seven murder of Maureen brainer Barnes, the 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.920 two thousand and nine murder of Melissa Bartholemy, the June 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.280 two thousand and nine murder of Megan Waterman, and the 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:54.840 September twenty ten murder of Ms Costello. 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.480 The girl runs out of the house naked and is 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:03.080 running in front of the garage. And now the witness says, hey, 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.960 shouldn't we be taking her? Something's wrong here, and the 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.520 driver tells her no, They're just playing a game. 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:10.159 Leave it. 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.560 The Go Go Beach task for searches more than three 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.400 hundred and fifty electronic devices before finding the blueprint document 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.880 on a hard drive in the basement of human's home. 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.760 The document includes a checklist of supplies like ropes, saws, 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:27.320 and surgical drapes. Another checklist includes tasks to complete before, during, 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.240 and after the killings, as well as practical lessons for 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:31.280 next time. 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:40.480 Along the lines of what the Victoria of A. Squez 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:45.800 is writing about in this amazing book, The Death Row Club. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:53.800 They say fresh and unforgettable. Okay, it's definitely unforgettable. I 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:59.040 agree with that. But another real life example of this 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:04.040 a woman joining us right now, her name Francine Bardol, 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:10.639 who knew Ted Bundy very well. And actually brace yourselves, 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.199 because normally I would be trying to accuse her of 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:20.560 child neglect. Her son in Bundy's girlfriend son. Her son 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:27.480 and Bundy's girlfriend's son were best friends. Bundy would take 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:36.120 the two boys to movies and the pool. Ted Bundy 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:41.640 taking your child to movies and a pool party. She's 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:48.400 also with cold case solutions and resources. Frank saye, I mean, 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.240 do you ever just want to go? What was I thinking? 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:53.440 But how could you know? 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:55.760 I didn't know? 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:58.760 He was very. 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:06.919 Smart, He presented himself well. He was very good with 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.160 the kids. He was he really was really good with them. 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.280 And he used to sit when he come home to 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.719 pick up Josh because I was pretending Josh. We'd sit 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.720 and talk for a long time. He would talk about 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:23.399 law school. I was interested in law school. He was 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.920 very a stute, very good listener, and he was handsome 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:32.600 and he was endearing. And I remember myself, well, you think. 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.760 He's handsome, but because he looks like a demon to me. 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:36.679 He didn't. 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:41.800 I've interviewed I believe every living victim of Ted Bundy's 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.399 and the stories they have told me on and off 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.520 air are blood curling. You do know he had sex 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.680 with a woman's skull, right, Oh? 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:53.560 Absolutely, I do know all about him. 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:56.520 Yeah, okay, And you do know that after he would 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.159 kill the victims, he would bathe their bodies and do 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:05.040 their hair and put makeup on them. Yes, I do, okay, 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:07.639 just making sure you knew that. Okay, tell me a 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:08.399 bundee story. 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:14.280 Well, he would take my son and josh swimming. He 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.880 went to law school at the University of Utah, and 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:21.560 they allowed them access to the Fort Douglas swimming pool. 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.760 And my son was I think he's six maybe as 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.440 I was recalling it, and Joshua was about the same age, 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.080 and he'd take them swimming and they like going swimming. 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:31.879 I mean, not everybody had a swimming pool back in 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.080 those days, and that was in like seventy four, and 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.680 so they'd go and then one day my son came 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.520 home and he said, I don't want to go swimming 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.600 with Ted anymore. And of course I was kind of concerned, 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:48.760 thinking maybe Ted had touched him or been inappropriate with him, 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.080 and I said, well why not, and he goes, well, 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.399 he keeps playing this game called Shark and he keeps 0:20:55.440 --> 0:21:01.280 biting me. And as you know, that's how Ted was 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.879 convicted based on his bike marks. 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:05.640 And so. 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:10.000 As I think about it now, it was totally surprising 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:11.720 because the boys loved going with him, and he was 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:14.280 always good with them, but had no idea my son 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.120 was going to be an appetizer. And then there were 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:20.240 times when he take him to the movies. That driving 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.399 movies were big back then, and he took them to 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:25.400 the movies and he'd leave and he'd tell the boys, 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:27.320 I'm going to the snack bar, but I'll be back, 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.320 you know, you guys wait, and he wouldn't come back, 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:32.639 and so they'd get the movie, get over and they 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.359 go out looking for him, and my son Larry said 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:41.280 that he'd see that he saw Ted standing by the 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.320 women's restroom door watching the women leaving, and he thought 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.000 that he was just young, he was just little. He 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:49.200 couldn't understand why he wasn't at the snack bar getting candy, 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:54.680 and so that was kind of concerning. And the other 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:58.000 thing that kind of bothered me, But I didn't give 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.920 it much thought because I babysat jaw His mom, who 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:06.879 Ted was living with, asked if I could tend Josh 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:11.920 well her and Ted would go waterskiing, and I of 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.960 course say yes, and that was just fine. But she'd 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:19.240 sometimes call and say, oh, never mind, he didn't come 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:23.040 home last night, and we're not going and he takes 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.160 off sometimes and he doesn't come home for a while, 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:28.879 and she was speculating perhaps it was because he'd go 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:33.000 visit his mother or just do something that was normal, 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:35.200 you know, for him to do that sort of thing. 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:38.879 And I didn't think a lot about it, I you know, 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:40.600 because I didn't give it a lot of thought. But 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:44.399 I do recall one time she had to work a 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:46.720 little bit later she asked me if I could bring 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:51.439 Josh back home and Ted was there and drop him 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:54.160 off because she's going to be later. So I did 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:57.240 take him home, and I remember knocking and knocking on 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.320 the door. He didn't answer the door, and I thought, 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:02.399 I wonder if he's really home or not. And all 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:05.080 of a sudden I saw the He just peeked out 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:09.480 of the curtains, just a peeking, and then he opened 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:12.119 the door and it was pitch dark in the house. 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:15.280 And that was the first time I felt really uneasy. 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:18.960 Was I didn't feel good about how the house was 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:22.040 so dark and leaving Josh there. But Josh acted like, 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:26.040 you know, not a big deal, and that bothered me. 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.520 And then later on Larry would say, that's my son, 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:33.440 and he'd say, you know, sometimes when Ted would get 0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:37.840 home after a weekend, he would want it to be 0:23:37.880 --> 0:23:41.560 totally quiet. He didn't want any noise. The house was 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:44.320 just really, you know, kind of it wasn't all it 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:47.280 was kind of dark, and he would want his food 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:51.439 delivered to his door, so Leslie would, that was the 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:53.719 girl he was living with, would take the food to 0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:57.080 the door, the bedroom door where Ted was staying, as 0:23:57.080 --> 0:23:58.800 you leave it there, and he'd eat it. And he 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:01.480 was like that for a couple of days. So those 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:05.440 were kind of strange things, you know, But honestly, there 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:08.480 was nothing I could think about. There was one thing 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:12.159 that was a little strange. My son got mad because 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:14.160 he had to do some chores and so he ran 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:18.520 away from home. He's six, maybe seven, and I couldn't 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.440 find him, and Ted offered to help find him, and 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:25.080 Ted did find him and my son. You know, he 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:27.560 kind of got on my son about doing that, and 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:30.080 he took my son's bike. He had a little bike, 0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:31.719 and he took it out of his trunk of the car. 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:33.720 And in a Volkswagen, the trunk is in the front, 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:36.919 and he walked around to let my son out of 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:40.600 the car. But I remember my son said, oh, he 0:24:40.600 --> 0:24:42.720 couldn't get out of the car by himself because the 0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:47.480 door handle was missing. So I didn't know anything about 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:48.800 this kind of thing. I thought, well, you know, it 0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:52.200 wasn't you know, not a big deal, I guess, But yeah, 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:55.400 he would remove the door handles so he viclins could 0:24:55.400 --> 0:24:56.040 not escape. 0:24:56.880 --> 0:25:04.359 Two Day Back Crime Stories investigator reporter the ruses Ted Bundy. Well, 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:09.000 all of the serial killers used to snare their victims 0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:15.119 were very often very intricate. Ted Bundy would use a 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:20.760 fake sling or cast to approach women and act like 0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:26.600 he was disabled because of the injury, then use that 0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:31.560 cast or sling on them to quiet them. As you 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:36.400 just heard from Francine Bardole in some of his earlier victims, 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:41.920 he would approach them in that VW. They got in, 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:45.119 but they couldn't get out. And that is exactly what 0:25:45.240 --> 0:25:47.640