WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 9 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.520 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.199 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.400 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.959 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:28.800 can make your own decisions. Welcome to it happens sometimes 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:37.240 the podcast where it's happened. Shit, Um, Garrison, Chris, somebody, somebody, 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.800 somebody picked this up. This is on you. Anybody anybody 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.559 got help you out of this one? Okay, Well, you 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.720 know what podcasts this is. You've been listening, presumably for months, 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:49.840 or this is your first time listening. If so, I've 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:54.000 probably lost you already with that Bush League introduction. Jesus 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.800 christ Um, I'm Robert Evans. This is a show about 0:00:57.160 --> 0:00:59.360 how things fall apart and how to maybe stop them 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:01.960 from falling up art as much. And today we're talking 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.000 to some people who were in kind of the best 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:10.559 case scenario situation for having a bunch of authoritarians try 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:14.960 to uh dominate your country, by which I mean, we're 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.840 talking to some Chilean activists who who who won? Um, 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.560 inasmuch as it's it's possible to win in the world. Um, 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.479 it's a pretty exciting situation. UM happening there. I'm excited 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:28.080 to introduce people to like what's been going on. But 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:31.400 first I want to introduce our guests for today. UM, 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:36.480 y'all wanna you'll wanna say hello. Hello. My name is 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:40.160 Jeremiah from the United States. I've lived in Chile for 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:47.319 the last ten years. And Stephanie Good I'm a Jillian 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:53.000 and I'm laving here with with my my husband. And Hi, 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.600 I'm Nicholas. Um, I'm m I have been living here 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:01.320 for my whole life. Yeah. So we started a small 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:06.800 group called Nitos to do some activism to try to 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:11.280 get out the vote for the plelcito, to try to 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:18.080 uh last year to get the constitution approved to be 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:22.600 voted on and and it was successful. So we are 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:24.720 proud of the small bit of work that we did 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:28.280 to help that happen. And so today the constitution is 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:32.320 being written and it's a very exciting time. Yeah. And 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:34.120 I want to let's pull back a little bit because 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.960 the last time we we talked about UM, Chile on 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.920 behind the bastards in two thousand nineteen, when UM a 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:42.320 protest that started as some I think it's fair to 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:46.600 say zoomers protesting a fair increase by like jumping fares 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.560 at the at the underground the subway. UM was met 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:54.720 with police doing police stuff, which was met with people 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.680 taking to the streets and very significant numbers, which is 0:02:57.680 --> 0:02:59.920 the thing that by now a lot more people are 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.520 experienced with. But unlike kind of what happened in my country, 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:06.200 you did it. You made him blink, and and that's 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.280 what the plebiscite is, right, Like the there was an 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:10.960 agreement made to give because Chili was still, if I'm 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:15.280 not mistaken, governed under the same constitution that that Pinochet 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:24.920 had had, right UM, and Pinochet famously not a great guy. UM, 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:26.280 So I wonder if you might give us kind of 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.640 an overview of y'all's experience during that time, from like 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.840 the start of the protests to oh ship we might 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.960 actually get to change things at a pretty fundamental level 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.520 in our country. UM. Yeah. So it was incredible time 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:44.440 about exactly two years ago, so just the of October 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.880 was just a two year anniversary. And UM, as you said, 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:54.240 it all started with UM literal high schoolers, sixteen year 0:03:54.240 --> 0:04:00.640 olds who are protesting a thirty paceo increase, which is, 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:05.200 you know, like increase in the metro. But we of 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:07.760 course have one of the most expensive metros in the 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:12.480 world and a very low um uh minimum wage here. 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.920 And so as you said, they went out there and 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.919 started to jump the turnstiles, but in massive groups, hundreds 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:25.800 of them going to the metro together and all jumping together. 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:33.760 And in response, the government ended up closing the metros. 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.159 And so it was this Friday night, UM, and we 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:40.840 were having dinner and uh, suddenly the metros were all 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.040 closed and everyone had to just walk home from work 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:46.960 or dinner or where they were. And that was kind 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.720 of the beginning of everything. And it was almost like 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:53.159 the government brought it on themselves because suddenly there were 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.840 thousands of people in the streets just because they had 0:04:55.960 --> 0:05:00.839 no other way to get home and from there, Uh, 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:05.760 they there were protests and UM the protests were met 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:11.240 with extreme police oppression and water cannons and tear gas 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:16.920 and all of that, and UM eventually it led to 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.960 one march which had over a million people throughout Chile 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:26.720 marching and UM a series of marches and protests basically 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:32.160 every week for months. Um, and finally, uh, it came 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:35.760 down to uh they announced that there would be this 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.599 pleblist site and it was a vote, um, yes or 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:45.000 no to create a new constitution, because yes, Chile is 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.320 still There were some reforms in the early two thousands 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:53.800 to the constitution, but um still U we live under 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:58.320 the constitution written by Hime Gustman, Um kind of you know, 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:03.440 Cha's right hand man, and we happen to live. Nico 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.840 is our good friend and also our next door neighbor, 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.839 and we live about four blocks from the Plaza um 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:15.160 formerly Plaza Italia. Now the protesters have deemed it Plaza 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:19.719 Dignity Dad, and so we've been just in the middle 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.719 of it. And uh, for for a couple of months, 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.360 our our whole neighborhood was like a war zone and uh, 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:31.039 just really crazy protests every single day and and tear 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.880 gas and all of that, and it was it was 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.080 really intense for a while, and uh it still is. 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.840 You know. Um last Friday, Uh, we you know, were 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.320 met with tear gas and water cannons again. So it's 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:52.360 it's it's even though the current the constitution is being 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.040 written again, and the plaslist site was a year ago, 0:06:55.320 --> 0:07:01.360 but the police are still out there being bastards. Yeah, 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.320 I'm curious what each of you kind of sees is 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.039 the moment when or if you because maybe I was 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.120 going too optimistic, right, Like I guess I'm wondering, do 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.560 you think that a corner has been turned? And and 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:15.480 if so, what was kind of the moment each of 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:17.840 you felt like, oh my god, we might actually this 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.440 isn't just gonna be like showing up to get the 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.480 ship kicked out of us. We were going to get 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:26.720 somewhat least of what we're fighting for. Wait, technically, yeah, 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.920 I mean I think that like that particular moment was 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:36.160 when we finally went to the elections to who you 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:41.960 call the referendum for the for this new constitution. Um, 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.920 we were kind of skeptic about the the percentage of 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:52.800 people who approved this new constitution because a few months 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.760 ago or a few weeks before this referendum, we have 0:07:55.920 --> 0:08:00.000 like continuing polls. We had the polls and there were 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.520 a kind of fifty, So we're kind of skeptic about 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.840 are we gonna have any constitution or not? And that 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.080 the same I mean the process very quick. So after 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:15.440 I know, the this thing close at six pm and 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:17.880 then you have the results like three hours later. So 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:22.000 on the same day, we're having the results and it 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:26.520 was like eighty against twenties. So it was like kind 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.840 of shocking. I mean, we I think that nobody was 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.040 expecting to have this kind of eighty percent of the 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:38.120 people until they were I went to throw to the 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.560 being the you know, chech constitution. So it was kind 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.120 of like, I don't know, I will say, like the 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:50.600 best moment. Yeah, there's this. There's an American, a deceased 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.800 American um sociologist who who wrote an essay that I 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.360 find quite influential called the Shock of Victory, and it's 0:08:56.400 --> 0:09:00.880 about how activists often failed to take advance age of 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.160 of their momentum, like because they're kind of surprised at 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.280 the success early on, and then they don't properly take 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:09.360 advantage of what they have when they have it, and 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.679 and you know, progress gets turned back, which I think 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.680 we've seen happen in the United States in the wake 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.840 of of what happened here last summer. Why do you 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.080 think that that hasn't happened in Chile? What do you 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:25.040 think it is that that that enabled UM, you you 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.520 all to actually keep the pressure on and and take 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.520 advantage of that that moment in time, which which never 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:33.160 I guess that's what I'm impressed with the most, is 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.360 that you y'all did manage to make that momentum work 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:38.600 for you rather than kind of letting it pull you 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:40.560 off balance. And I guess I'm just trying to get 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:44.520 a handle on on how UM. I guess for me, 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.800 what I think it's lost a lot in the conversation 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:54.080 is UM the premier linear, so the first line of defense. 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:59.559 And so you have UM a bunch of young people, anarchists, 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.800 you know, just crazy young people who went out there 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:07.160 to fight with the cops every single day, and it 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:11.559 was really impressive and a lot of times we uh, 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:13.120 I don't know, I feel like they don't get the 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:17.160 credit they deserve because you know, they're the delintements and 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.600 that you know, we talked a lot about the big 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.560 marches when there was a million people in the street 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:28.400 and and obviously, like Nico said, winning the vote by 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:33.880 sevent showed that it was something that everyone in Chile wanted. 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.719 But it never would have happened if it weren't for 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:42.400 the this small group of of fighters who were there 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:48.520 every single day, facing tear gas and water cannons and 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:53.280 police beating them up with you know, throwing rocks and 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:57.000 stuff like that. So I think that's the main thing. 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.000 It wasn't like once a month or even once a week. 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.160 It was every single day, and they were there on 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.240 the front line, and it none of this would be 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.319 possible without them. That's fascinating to me because obviously things 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.880 like that, groups like that existed here, like in Portland, 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:15.880 went every night for not as long, but for not 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.280 an insignificant amount of time, and it was those same 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.920 It was a lot of these kind of young anarchists, 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:23.319 frontliners who were willing to go toe to the toe 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.160 with the cops every night. But you didn't have you 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:30.120 didn't have that kind of larger, more moderate populace backing 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:31.480 them up. And I guess one of the things I'm 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.880 curious about is what was kind of the you mentioned 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:36.360 you don't think they get the credit they deserve. Was 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.440 there a broad attitude that like, these people are the 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.839 ones going face to face with the cops, so that 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:43.680 those of us, you know, people who are older, people 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:45.320 who aren't And it's going to ship people who can't 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.280 physically take as much abuse can still show up or 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.319 was it. I'm kind of curious how how those people 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.840 represented what they were doing and how it how it 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.040 was seen by most of kind of the more moderate 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.719 people who still supported change around you, because that that 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.800 dynamic exists in any mass protest movement, and it worked 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:06.480 where you are, and I'm trying to get a handle 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.760 on maybe how it was different than what I saw 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.760 in Portland. Uh So now a lot of them are 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:19.240 in Yo and or without one eye. So it's, uh, 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:25.400 it's really terrible because we have all these new beautiful 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:35.640 process but we are without really completely democracy with liberty 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.720 with the for this guy, or or democracy for all 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:49.880 this um person that loose eyes or uh yeah and 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.800 everyone that was injured. Um So, yeah, a lot of 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.600 protests nowadays. Actually, I think today right now there's a 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:02.320 protest going on to free the political prisoners. Um and 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:08.319 uh but yeah, I mean I think they're even among 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:13.479 you know, obviously of the country voted for the new constitution, 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.920 so there's a lot of different points of view there. 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.320 But but yeah, there was division even among the left. 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:21.920 A lot of people said, you know, this is not 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.440 the form of this is not the way to protest, 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.280 and we should not be violent and you know, burning 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.360 things and um. But but there was a lot, I mean, 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:35.440 you saw a lot of the opposite where people were 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.720 were saying, just as you said, like those out there 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.880 on the front line are the reason that the older 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.920 people and others can come out and feel safer to 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:49.600 protest because the premiery LINEA is kind of taking the 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:55.400 brunt of the violence from the police, and that allows 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:59.280 the the older people and those who are are less 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:03.240 confrontational to be out there in protest. So for me, 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.199 some of some of the most inspiring signs I remember 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:10.120 seeing are like folks that are eighty years old and 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.640 they have signs that say, you know, gracias ala primary LINEA. 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.679 You know, like thank you to the front liners who 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:21.200 who are taking that violence so that they are able 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.320 the others to to protest um in a more peaceful way. 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.320 That's such a fascinating situation to me that you've got 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.240 You've got these these more radical front liners who were, 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:36.280 as you say, critical in allowing this this really groundbreaking 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.640 change to occur in your society. But at the same time, 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.360 things haven't changed enough that number one. The cops who 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.520 beat the ship out of them, I'm guessing are still 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.880 largely employed. Um and and a bunch of them are 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.400 in jail. I'm do you have much hope that at 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.760 the very least there will be something to like get 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.920 these people out or is it is that maybe a bridge? 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.600 I don't know, I don't know your country obviously, Well, 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.080 you know, I'm curious, like, do you feel like there's 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.480 much hope in pushing for that, because it seems like, 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.600 you know, those people need to be free. I mean, 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.920 most of these guys who are in prison, they have 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:14.760 spent like, oh no, like twelve months in prison without 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:19.880 any evidence, so only the world of the cops against them. 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.520 So after I know, like thirteen months for ten months, 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.200 they will finally get released because they have they have 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.080 no evidence, or they could they may find that the 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.200 police they made up all the evidence, so they they 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:38.880 finally go out. But I mean, you spend like almost 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.720 a year in prison, that's me. It's clearly like political. 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.320 I mean you're a political prisoner, like they got they 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.960 got you in prison with no evidence, without any profit process. 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.720 They keep you in prison for a year, and who's 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:57.600 gonna pay for that. I mean, you lost a year. Yeah, 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.760 Like we're talking so far about the sacrifice is made here. 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.360 What do you think with this new constitution, you and 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:07.920 your your your fellow Chileans, what are you gonna get? Like? 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.120 How what are the changes that that are seemed to 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.120 be most concrete and the ones that you think are 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:17.080 most important? Um. I think already it's been groundbreaking. I 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:24.520 believe it's the only constitution ever to be written by 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:29.800 a plurality of women and and also to have a 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:35.080 representation from the indigenous people's and uh so it's already 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:40.440 been very um inspiring and groundbreaking. Um. The President of 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:49.040 the Constitutional Convention is a very inspiring um Mapuche leader woman. UM. 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:58.920 And the good thing is that the right um it 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.360 represents less in one third of the Constitutional Convention, so 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:08.879 they don't have the power to block um anything uh 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:13.280 as far as only by the right, So we will see. 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.400 But they literally just started writing the constitution last week. 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.840 So yeah, yeah, it's still but that's I mean, that's 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.959 that's a significant Is there a kind of a broad 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:25.760 agreement that one of the things that needed to happen 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.880 here was a redress of grievances between the indigenous people, UM, 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.600 and the and the state because it it sounds like 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.240 that's a significant chunk of what's what's been already agreed upon. 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.240 Just but like how this is coming together? Yeah so, 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.679 uh well Nicoka probably tell a lot more about this 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.840 than I could. But Um, there's a big deal with 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:52.199 the United with the indigenous people in the South and 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:58.640 the government UM basically waging war against the indigenous people. Actually, 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:04.400 uh two weeks ago, Nia the current right wing president 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.879 UM declared a state of emergency in the South and 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.320 he just extended it for fifteen more days. So we 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:15.600 have the military in the south, UM, and they are 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:20.679 you know, with the tanks and attaching attacking the the 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:25.720 Mapuche and other indigenous people there. And uh so yeah, 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:31.200 a big aspect of Chile right now is the the 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.440 the fight between and and the oppression of the government 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:38.480 against the native people. And and it's a cultural thing too. 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.160 I mean, it's it's really heavy everyone. Most people here 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:47.000 in Chile are are mixed, you know, between the the 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:52.199 natives and and the white men and everything, and you 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:56.640 know the Europeans, UM, but the Mapuche and the other 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:00.760 indigenous groups have really not UM received a lot of 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:06.400 respect in the last thirty years and and so yeah, 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.560 that's a big aspect. Yeah, I will say, like for me, 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:12.800 it's very inspiring to have like the president of this 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:17.919 new Constitution to be uh I'm a picture woman, so 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:23.960 um yeah, I mean I guess that the most important thing, 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:29.200 like the thing that this Indigenous people want to claim 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.320 is their land. I mean land for them is the 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.480 most important thing. And that's what the government I'm only 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.440 for the last three hundred years they have been taken 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:41.119 from to them. Um, they are now like trying to 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:45.920 claim again their their their space. So I mean, let's 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.560 cape that this new constitution will bring them back their land, um, 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.840 the respect that they deserve. Now, there's been a lot 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:56.000 of discussion about this, this new constitution as I think 0:19:56.040 --> 0:20:00.040 the term used as an ecological constitution um, and it 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.600 it's the necessity of it addressing a lot of the 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:05.439 climate not just climate change, but like a lot of 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:10.240 the things caused by climate change, like unequal access to water. Um. 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:14.480 There's been discussion. I think Ezio Coasta of of the 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.720 f I m A and GEO has has is arguing 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.520 currently that the Constitution needs to enshrine a human right 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.560 to water and recognize it as a common good. Um. 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:25.880 It's obviously again they're writing it this week, so it's 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.080 kind of unclear if that's going to happen. Um. But 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.600 I'm I'm wondering kind of what you what y'all think 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.560 it's actually because as you've talked about, you know, with 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.879 the protests ongoing, with the military being deployed in the South, 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:41.080 this is not a finished fight. Um, it's just a 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:42.959 fight that a lot of progress has been made on. 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:46.080 What do you think is reasonable to expect from this 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:49.040 new constitution in terms of of of climate change, in 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:53.840 terms of ecological justice. Also, I think the right of 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:59.240 the of water. So water is privatized here, so chileans 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.080 here and ago we have to pay a Spanish company 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:08.000 too for our water. Sure. Um, I would say, like 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.880 the economy in this country is based on like structivism, 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.919 So you have like the most productive thing is mining, 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:18.560 and then you have like the forest three and all 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.440 these things, like they have an enormous impact on the 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:25.000 environment and the people until I mean the people who 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:30.280 live right next to these kind of things, they don't 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:34.880 get anything from them. I mean, the poorest places are 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.520 like right next to the first three right next to 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.800 the mining. So it's kind of like we're creating a 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:45.520 lot of income from these things, but we're not getting 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:48.879 anything from them and all. I mean also, it's not 0:21:48.920 --> 0:21:51.960 like a thing like let's get everything back to the state, 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:55.399 I mean to the state, because it's it's more than that. 0:21:55.440 --> 0:22:03.320 It's just like like, um, ecological quality equity. Yeah. Yeah, 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:05.639 it's not saying we should take all of the private 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:07.359 water and give it to the state as much as 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:09.800 it's saying everyone who lives here has a has a 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:14.080 personal right to enough water to survive. Yeah. So you 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.480 have pounds where small little towns and they don't have 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:21.760 any water to drink because all of their water is 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:25.760 to the going to the farm owned by Nessley to 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:30.560 make you know, to grow avocados to sell to Europe 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:36.960 and the United States. So um, yeah, it's it's uh, 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:40.120 it's it's a pretty crazy thing. One of the things 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.760 that's most interesting to me about your situation is you 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.720 you are in a place where not entirely similar dissimilar 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:49.440 from the United States. You have a police in a 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:55.040 military that are heavily dominated by by right wing ideology. Obviously, 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.320 like the United States is partly responsible for that in 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.240 your case, we we funded it for a very very 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:04.840 long time. Um and uh, and so it's still an 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:08.879 ongoing fight. But at the same time, clearly the people 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.320 are unhappy enough with that situation and hold like that 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.280 they were able to make they were able to force 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:19.439 the folks with with guns to um, to recognize that 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:23.080 they can't hold on to everything that they wanted to 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:28.600 hold onto. And I I guess, I'm what, how can 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:34.159 we do that? Um, I'm I'm very impressed by like, 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:36.800 and you know, watching from the sidelines, I was just 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:40.560 so happy to see this not go where I think 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:42.480 we were all scared it might go, you know, in 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:45.400 either the direction with like Syria, where it turns into 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:48.760 this horrible blood bath, or where everything gets crushed you 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.600 know it. And and I I'm wondering, like why you 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:54.960 think on a on a broader scale, what do you 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:59.840 think was responsible for those people with access to the 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:04.520 deciding we can't hold onto this. Like, Yeah, I'm just 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:08.160 I'm so intensely curious about that because it's it's it's 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:09.800 important for a lot of people and a lot of 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:12.919 other parts of the world. Yeah, I don't know, I mean, 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:15.639 I think it was just the protests and the daily 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:20.199 protests and and just getting out the keeping the pressure on. 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:23.359 And at some point, you know, it's like, hey, this 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:26.080 is not good for the economy, you know, like so 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:29.919 all of the rich people, um, and you know, the 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:34.560 ten families that are in control of you know, sixty 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:38.840 or seventy percent of the wealth of the country. Yeah, 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:44.520 and they at some point had to recognize that this 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:48.120 was something that that you know, had reached its boiling 0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:51.800 point and and that they could no longer respond with 0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:54.840 just force because they tried it and it didn't work 0:24:54.920 --> 0:24:57.800 for months and it was just months and months of 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:03.760 protests and um and uh. And obviously that caused a 0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:05.960 hit to the economy, and that caused a hit to 0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:10.880 the wallets of of the ultra rich. And so at 0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:15.400 some point they realized that they had no other move 0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:19.840 to play than to accept it in some way and uh, 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:23.280 and that's how we got, you know, this new constitution 0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:28.080 that is being written. One thing I was interested about 0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:31.359 is the geography of the protest, because I know Chili 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:34.959 very urban population and also it was is it like 0:25:35.000 --> 0:25:37.040 it's like a quarter of the population or something lives 0:25:37.040 --> 0:25:44.080 in Santiago, like in in that area, and I'm yeah, 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:47.600 so sorry. I just want to note, if I'm not mistaken, 0:25:47.600 --> 0:25:50.800 there were only five. You have kind of communes instead 0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:54.280 of states is what they're called. Um, like ten voted 0:25:54.320 --> 0:25:56.679 in favor of the referendum and only five voted against it. 0:25:56.680 --> 0:26:00.639 If I'm not mistaken, Well, communes are within cities, like 0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:06.520 different commune. It's like boroughs in New York, but we 0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:11.960 have different regions instead of states. And um, and I 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:16.280 think they all voted. They might be like seven. But 0:26:16.760 --> 0:26:20.879 what you might be thinking of, um of yeah, Robert, 0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:24.960 you might be thinking of communes in Santiago. Where Santiago 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:29.919 is very Um. So it's all on the Rio Mapocho, 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:33.080 the river which goes east to west across the city 0:26:33.520 --> 0:26:37.399 and basically you have this like very rich part on 0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:41.119 the east and up into the hills and um, and 0:26:41.160 --> 0:26:44.359 then it gets poorer and poorer as you go to 0:26:44.440 --> 0:26:50.920 the west. And UM. Yeah for the vote for the constitution, Um, 0:26:50.960 --> 0:26:56.399 it was everyone voted for the constitution except for these communes, 0:26:56.640 --> 0:27:00.719 these ultra rich in the east. Wow. Amazing saying, Okay, 0:27:01.720 --> 0:27:04.440 thing something I was curious about this was so when 0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:07.720 when the protests were going on, Um, because you know, 0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:11.680 Chile's had like huge protests before, I mean even the 0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:15.160 last decade or what I was interested stid also with 0:27:15.359 --> 0:27:18.000 this time is like, well, hey, what do you think 0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:19.720 it is different about this than say like two thousand 0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:22.920 and eleven ChIL wasn't thirteen? And then be in terms 0:27:22.920 --> 0:27:25.359 of like the geographic breakdown of where people are and 0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:28.000 where they're going? Is it that you know? So so 0:27:28.080 --> 0:27:30.560 you have this, you have this classifying the city were 0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:36.000 the working class districts, like we're people staying there in 0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:40.080 those grastructure where they like moving from those places like 0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:44.880 to protest inside of the richer urban areas. I would 0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:48.200 say like, I mean, yeah, we have like many protests 0:27:48.200 --> 0:27:50.960 in the best but there were more kind of like 0:27:51.200 --> 0:27:54.600 I don't know, like students protests, and then you have 0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:59.119 like you know, like university protests. But when we have 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:03.040 like the protest like that, the one we have on 0:28:03.200 --> 0:28:06.119 Todasa nineteen is like something that unites everyone. I mean 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:07.639 you don't have to be a students, you don't have 0:28:07.720 --> 0:28:10.120 to go to university to protest. I mean it's something 0:28:10.160 --> 0:28:14.560 that it's affecting everyone. I mean, the fairs of the metro, 0:28:14.760 --> 0:28:17.760 they affect everything on the in the quality in the 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:22.040 country affects everyone. So um, I mean that. I guess 0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:26.359 that's that's the thing that make this protests of the 0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:30.600 Totasa nineteen unique in this term. Yeah, and I think 0:28:30.960 --> 0:28:33.600 it was actually a problem when all the protests were happening. 0:28:33.600 --> 0:28:35.920 A lot of people were saying, we can't keep going 0:28:35.960 --> 0:28:37.880 to the plaza. You know, the cops are just going 0:28:37.920 --> 0:28:40.360 to wait for us in the plaza, and you know 0:28:40.480 --> 0:28:42.560 it's going to be a ship show, and we need 0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:46.760 to you know, protest all over And there were protests 0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:51.120 across Chile and every single major city. UM but I 0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:54.680 will say the majority of the protests have been UM 0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:59.200 here in the plaza and close to Lamoneta, where the 0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:03.760 presidential place and UM but some of the most memoriab 0:29:03.920 --> 0:29:08.880 protests and and the Coast Nara Center, the tallest building 0:29:08.920 --> 0:29:13.520 in Latin America, which is a mall and a monument 0:29:13.680 --> 0:29:20.400 to this idea that Pinera has of Um, the way 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:23.959 of Chile being an oasis in South America. We're not 0:29:24.040 --> 0:29:28.000 like other countries were. We're like the United States, you know, 0:29:28.080 --> 0:29:35.320 where this capitalism capitalists oasis and exactly. Um but but yeah, 0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:38.719 so some of the most memoriable protests. They weren't super common, 0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:42.240 but we're exactly that where the people said, you know what, 0:29:42.400 --> 0:29:44.920 we're not going to the Plaza, We're going to coast 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:47.920 to Nara Center, or we're going to Vista Kora, We're 0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:52.200 going to where the millionaires live, where they work. And 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:56.240 um that those were really powerful. And so that's when 0:29:56.280 --> 0:30:00.320 you started to see like all of those banks and 0:30:00.760 --> 0:30:06.040 malls and just blocks and blocks of what the rich 0:30:06.120 --> 0:30:11.040 folk like to call Sanhattan, you know, Santiago Manhattan, the 0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:13.960 skyscraper part of the city, and it was just all 0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:19.200 boarded up, you know. Um because there there were definitely 0:30:19.560 --> 0:30:21.960 a couple of weeks where the protests went that way 0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:26.680 and and and yeah, it was inspiring. What I keep 0:30:27.120 --> 0:30:29.600 coming back to when I look about like why it worked. 0:30:30.480 --> 0:30:33.560 It wasn't because the front liners just kept the pressure up, 0:30:33.600 --> 0:30:35.800 because the front liners did in a lot of places here, 0:30:35.800 --> 0:30:38.400 the front liners stayed out well after everyone else stopped 0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:42.640 coming out. It's that the population kept up the pressure. 0:30:43.000 --> 0:30:47.840 Like the there were like Chile as a as a 0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:51.640 as a nation, as a as a people kept up 0:30:51.640 --> 0:30:54.800 the pressure in in a in a pretty significant way, um, 0:30:54.960 --> 0:30:58.040 as opposed to kind of fading back after the first 0:30:58.160 --> 0:31:02.080 couple of weeks, and I mean it, I think I'm 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:04.200 sure the question of why it happened has a lot 0:31:04.240 --> 0:31:06.440 to do with, like you said, inequality, you know, things 0:31:06.440 --> 0:31:08.440 that have been going on for decades. It's it's a 0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:11.480 it's a complex situation, but it does seem like that's 0:31:11.480 --> 0:31:15.080 one of the big takeaways that if you can you 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:19.480 can secure even in even in a pretty terrifying situation, 0:31:19.640 --> 0:31:23.280 a lot of concessions, a lot of of what you need. 0:31:23.360 --> 0:31:27.600 But but people have to have to keep putting themselves 0:31:27.600 --> 0:31:30.880 out there. Yeah. Absolutely, I would say it's a couple 0:31:30.920 --> 0:31:35.440 of things. Um. One is um as you mentioned. I 0:31:35.480 --> 0:31:38.200 think it's like the culture of protests here, you know, 0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:42.560 especially in the last ten years, like um with the 0:31:42.600 --> 0:31:49.160 revolution Penguin and Milances inven Um, you know, and there 0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:57.120 are in and the feminist protests and um. So it's 0:31:57.200 --> 0:32:00.000 it's not something that just happened two years ago. It's 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:03.760 the last decade or two has has been the people, 0:32:04.040 --> 0:32:08.280 especially the young people, going out there and protesting. And 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:13.480 that's that's one thing that's inspiring about Boris the candidate 0:32:14.120 --> 0:32:18.200 for president. The election is next month, and so the 0:32:18.280 --> 0:32:21.479 left wing candidate Boridge, and he came out of that movement. 0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:24.920 He was a student protester and a leader of the 0:32:24.960 --> 0:32:29.360 student movement. And so I think it's like it grew 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:31.560 out of that, it grew out of kids in high 0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:35.560 school saying this is just what we do. This is normal. 0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:39.640 We go out there and protest when when ship happens. 0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:42.280 And and the other thing is, yeah, you know, we 0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:46.520 always say here in Chile after the protests started, Um, 0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:49.360 it's not thirty pace those it's thirty years, you know, 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:55.920 thirty years of neoliberalism, of this revolving door of center 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:59.400 right and center left and and just continuing on with 0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:04.360 the um economic oppression. And the other thing I feel 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:07.760 like people don't understand is that, uh, you know, people 0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:11.080 either think Chile is like the United States or they 0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:14.600 think it's like Peru or something, you know, and it's 0:33:14.680 --> 0:33:20.600 really neither. In Chile, the minimum wage is half of 0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:26.960 what the United States is, which is already terrible. But um, 0:33:27.000 --> 0:33:30.960 the cost of living here is almost the same as 0:33:31.000 --> 0:33:33.760 you guys in Portland. I mean, not the housing probably, 0:33:33.800 --> 0:33:38.800 but like you know, yeah, yeah, it's like Europe. You know, 0:33:38.880 --> 0:33:41.400 I could move to Berlin and live cheaper than here. 0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:46.480 You know, it is hard to of three times that, 0:33:46.680 --> 0:33:49.880 you know, So, so I think it's that's the other 0:33:49.920 --> 0:33:54.160 thing is people just they they had no other choice, 0:33:54.200 --> 0:33:57.560 you know, and we're just boured down by by thirty years, 0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:00.959 you know, after twenty years of the dictator ship, thirty 0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:07.280 years of this terrible wages and um, just neoliberalism, and 0:34:08.880 --> 0:34:12.480 so so I think it's it's partially that and partially 0:34:12.520 --> 0:34:15.120 just like the culture of protests that grew out of 0:34:15.120 --> 0:34:20.000 the student movements in in the early two thousand's, mm hmm. Yeah, 0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:22.480 there was one thing that was interested also interested about 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:25.320 that I don't remember seeing much of at the time, 0:34:25.760 --> 0:34:30.600 was what was Chili organized labor doing during this That's 0:34:30.640 --> 0:34:35.080 a good question. Honestly, labor hasn't been a big part 0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:37.839 of the protest, at least from my point of view. 0:34:38.239 --> 0:34:42.879 You know, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it took 0:34:42.880 --> 0:34:47.200 a pretty strong hit during the Pinochet years, if I'm 0:34:47.239 --> 0:34:49.840 not mistaken, So there was kind of that, Like I 0:34:49.840 --> 0:34:54.839 guess that does make sense. Sure, Yeah, honestly, I don't 0:34:54.840 --> 0:34:57.160 know a whole lot about labor history here in Chile, 0:34:57.400 --> 0:34:59.680 but um, but yeah, it definitely is. I mean, you 0:34:59.680 --> 0:35:04.360 would see, you know, um union groups in the Straits 0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:09.680 here and there, but um, but but definitely they weren't 0:35:09.840 --> 0:35:12.800 a leading voice in the protest I would say. Yeah, 0:35:12.840 --> 0:35:15.320 So I guess that leads into the other. I guess 0:35:15.360 --> 0:35:19.160 one of the other things that, from from my understanding, 0:35:19.200 --> 0:35:23.040 has been happening all across Latin America, but but in 0:35:23.040 --> 0:35:26.760 in Chill in particular, is the rise of the informal 0:35:26.800 --> 0:35:31.080 sector and people just sort of not having access to 0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:36.120 sort of stable wages in labor. And I'm wondering about, Okay, 0:35:36.120 --> 0:35:39.680 so organized labors like the classical unions aren't really involved 0:35:39.680 --> 0:35:46.000 in this, And I guess I'm interested in how, if 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:47.719 I'm right that that you're dealing with a lot of 0:35:47.719 --> 0:35:50.920 people who aren't doing traditional labor stuff, what was the 0:35:50.960 --> 0:35:53.920 process that was able to get people mobilized. It's like, 0:35:54.040 --> 0:35:57.919 especially people who just have no sort of like people, 0:35:57.920 --> 0:35:59.799 people who are in the informal sector, and people who 0:35:59.800 --> 0:36:06.080 are involved in the sort of older classical organizations. Yeah, 0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:08.279 I don't know. I guess I would just say it's 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:11.600 like that that culture of protest um that comes from 0:36:11.680 --> 0:36:15.680 the young people, uh in the last twenty years, and 0:36:15.719 --> 0:36:19.960 then of course, um, the older folks who UM you know, 0:36:20.880 --> 0:36:25.719 uh lived through the dictatorship, and of course, UM there 0:36:25.760 --> 0:36:30.359 were an incredible protest at that time too. And and 0:36:30.440 --> 0:36:33.720 so I don't know. I mean, honestly, I was even 0:36:34.120 --> 0:36:39.080 after living here for you know, six years, UM, I 0:36:39.200 --> 0:36:41.560 was shocked. I never thought it would come to this. 0:36:41.760 --> 0:36:45.160 I never thought I would see you know, over half 0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:48.960 a million people in the streets of Santiago. UM. And 0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:53.719 and I would never never thought we'd see a new constitution. So, UM, 0:36:53.840 --> 0:36:55.320 I don't know, I don't I don't have the answer. 0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:59.880 Is it's uh, it's surprising to me. But UM. One 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:02.000 I will say, though, is I don't want to paint 0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:08.480 a Rosie portrait of Chile right now. Because if like 0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:12.400 we mentioned, you know, uh, tomorrow night, if you guys 0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:16.800 go to uh Galerria sema c I m A on 0:37:17.040 --> 0:37:21.120 YouTube or Instagram. UM, they have a live feed of 0:37:21.200 --> 0:37:25.200 the plaza four blocks from our house. And every Friday, 0:37:25.280 --> 0:37:28.600 you know, you the protests come out, and sometimes the 0:37:28.640 --> 0:37:31.040 cops are there right away, and they make a whole 0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:35.600 perimeter with two cops and all of the you know, 0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:40.880 tanks and everything, UM, blocking in turns to the plaza 0:37:40.920 --> 0:37:44.239 in every direction. Sometimes they let the people protest. But 0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:46.799 then at ten o'clock, you know, after the sun comes down, 0:37:47.040 --> 0:37:50.719 they come out there, and you know it's it's the 0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:53.200 same thing were a young woman was was killed a 0:37:53.280 --> 0:37:58.560 couple of weeks ago. So and the other thing is 0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:02.520 that we have this election coming up and uh, this 0:38:02.600 --> 0:38:09.799 guy Cast, extreme right winger Pinochettista, UM, just like they 0:38:09.800 --> 0:38:14.399 call him the Chilean Bosonaro UM, a real piece of ship. 0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:21.719 And uh he has um, he has really risen in 0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:25.320 the polls in the last month or two. UM. The 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:28.839 right wing candidate Sitchell, who won the right wing primaries, 0:38:29.360 --> 0:38:32.080 UM and was kind of going to be the successor 0:38:32.080 --> 0:38:35.919 to Pinera, the current right wing president. UM. Because in Chile, 0:38:36.080 --> 0:38:40.520 you know, you can't run consecutive you can't have consecutive terms. UM. 0:38:40.600 --> 0:38:45.520 But Sitchell just kind of was not a great candidate 0:38:45.600 --> 0:38:48.359 and uh kind of blew it and and he went 0:38:48.440 --> 0:38:51.239 down and and now Cast is going up. And it's 0:38:51.400 --> 0:38:57.440 really scary to think about Cast getting into the second round, UM, 0:38:57.520 --> 0:39:03.040 where it will probably be him verse Boridge and UM. 0:39:03.160 --> 0:39:08.520 And so yeah, you know, even though the constitution was 0:39:08.560 --> 0:39:12.239 approved by seventy of the country, UM, you know, it's 0:39:12.400 --> 0:39:14.799 very possible that this election is going to come down 0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:21.080 to a runoff between a you know, moderate socialist like Boridge, 0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:26.799 um not the most extreme leftist in fact, known as Amario, 0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:31.960 you know, very yellow bellied here in Chile, that's his nickname. Um. 0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:35.200 But it will probably right now, it's looking like it's 0:39:35.200 --> 0:39:37.360 going to come down to him and cast who is 0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:42.319 like almost a return to the dictatorship. So it's it's 0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:46.719 pretty scary, geez. So it's just this there's just so 0:39:46.800 --> 0:39:52.440 much fighting to do. Yeah, it's just so much fighting 0:39:52.480 --> 0:39:58.280 to do. Um, I mean I I uh yeah, UM, 0:39:58.520 --> 0:40:00.239 do you have do any of you have an anything 0:40:00.239 --> 0:40:02.399 else you want to make sure you say or talk 0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:04.279 about before we kind of close out for the day. 0:40:04.640 --> 0:40:07.360 Oh no, I will say, like three days ago, I 0:40:07.719 --> 0:40:12.080 just pay my I finally pay my whole student loan, 0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:15.879 like like I've been working for more than ten years 0:40:15.920 --> 0:40:18.520 in my life since I finished the university, and I've 0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:22.040 been wasted, I mean, all my savings. I just pay 0:40:22.239 --> 0:40:25.480 this fucking student loan. I guess that you guys in 0:40:25.520 --> 0:40:29.640 this in the States like the same, thank you. I 0:40:29.640 --> 0:40:32.080 don't know, except for people don't pay off their student 0:40:35.000 --> 0:40:39.480 stays there forever. And I just I just I would 0:40:39.480 --> 0:40:42.600 like to wish to the other, to the coming people 0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:45.759 that I mean, I don't wish that future for my 0:40:46.800 --> 0:40:50.600 from I mean for the future people in this country. 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:55.279 I don't wish anyone that I mean University, I mean 0:40:55.400 --> 0:40:59.799 all students should be UM study for free. I mean 0:41:00.000 --> 0:41:04.279 it's like uncle suable for me. Yeah, So that was 0:41:04.320 --> 0:41:06.719 a big part of it. And then also the I 0:41:06.920 --> 0:41:11.760 FIT pay pension system here, which is totally privatized, and 0:41:11.840 --> 0:41:16.320 so you uh, you the government just takes your money 0:41:16.360 --> 0:41:20.400 for retirement. You get to choose between four or five 0:41:20.480 --> 0:41:26.920 options which are private companies, and then um, if you 0:41:27.000 --> 0:41:31.480 make money, then the company takes you know, their chunk 0:41:31.520 --> 0:41:35.200 of your your retirement as the payment for managing your fund. 0:41:35.600 --> 0:41:39.800 But if you lose money, then it's on you. So literally, 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:43.759 you know, Stephie's mom is like, you know, checking on 0:41:43.880 --> 0:41:46.439 her retirement. How did I do this year? It's like, oh, 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:51.400 you lost two thousand dollars this year. That's that's your requirement, Davids. 0:41:51.520 --> 0:41:55.000 You know, so you and you have you know, people 0:41:55.080 --> 0:41:58.360 here trying to live on you retirements of one hundred 0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:02.719 dollars a month. Wow. The military is receiving ten tho 0:42:03.080 --> 0:42:07.359 dollars a month, you know, So that was a big 0:42:07.400 --> 0:42:11.920 part of it, um. But I think what I always 0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:15.920 come back to here in Chile is, like we've said, 0:42:16.600 --> 0:42:21.120 the activist renamed the plaza plaza dignidad, and that's what 0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:24.880 it all comes down to, is just we're not asking 0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:28.840 for you know, ponies, as Hillary Clinton would say, We're 0:42:28.920 --> 0:42:31.920 not We're not asking for the moon. We're just asking 0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:36.720 for basic dignity that everyone deserves. And it's as simple 0:42:36.760 --> 0:42:41.040 as that. So we just have to cross our fingers 0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:46.200 and hope that we've done enough that that you know, 0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:49.680 at a minimum, you know, people can live and retire 0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:53.839 with some dignity, that's all. Yeah, and uh, and that 0:42:55.640 --> 0:42:59.960 enough ecological justice can be gained that people can survive. 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:05.040 I've what's coming, um, which it's it's nice to see 0:43:05.120 --> 0:43:08.960 at the very least that that's a central topic of discussion, um, 0:43:09.040 --> 0:43:11.960 Whereas in the United States, everyone in power seems fine 0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:15.560 with just ignoring the increasing problems right now. So I 0:43:15.600 --> 0:43:17.680 don't know, you know, I I again, I also don't 0:43:17.680 --> 0:43:19.640 want to be painting too rosy a picture as you've 0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:23.280 as you've repeatedly clear, there's a lot of of struggle 0:43:23.560 --> 0:43:30.200 left still um, but at least you've you've you've achieved 0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:35.040 a lot, and I I'm just heartened by by hearing 0:43:35.080 --> 0:43:37.719 your story and and and hope that more people pay 0:43:37.760 --> 0:43:40.560 attention to what's happened there and try to take lessons 0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:43.000 from it, because I think we all need to be 0:43:44.000 --> 0:43:47.799 we all need to be gearing up um as as 0:43:47.800 --> 0:43:50.920 I'm sure you all will continue to continue to do 0:43:50.960 --> 0:43:54.920 anything else before we close out. UM No, that's it. 0:43:55.000 --> 0:43:57.520 I mean, I completely agree. I think that just like 0:43:58.040 --> 0:44:01.200 the messages that like, you know, better things are possible, 0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:05.520 like real, real, real change can happen, you know, like 0:44:05.920 --> 0:44:11.239 this started, uh two years ago with high schoolers protesting, 0:44:11.600 --> 0:44:14.040 and now we're going to have a vote on a 0:44:14.080 --> 0:44:17.959 new constitution, and it's going to be an ecological constitution, 0:44:18.080 --> 0:44:22.520 of blurry natural national constitution, um with respect for the 0:44:22.560 --> 0:44:28.200 indigenous people. It's it's uh, it's written by you know, 0:44:28.360 --> 0:44:30.960 an equal amount of men and women and everything, and 0:44:30.960 --> 0:44:34.120 and so yeah, just I think for me, it's so 0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:39.880 easy for us who have grown up in you know, 0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:44.240 under the gloom of neoliberalism, to to just get really 0:44:44.280 --> 0:44:48.520 depressed and fatalistic about it. And uh so for me, 0:44:48.600 --> 0:44:51.839 I feel the same way, Like it's just such an 0:44:51.840 --> 0:44:58.840 inspiration and the Chilean and especially the Chilean youth. Um. 0:44:58.960 --> 0:45:03.120 But but yeah, um, it's just an inspiration and uh 0:45:03.160 --> 0:45:07.600 and proof that that change can happen. Um. But it's 0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:12.520 not just voting. And you know, like Chileans have elected socialists. 0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:15.560 You know, the former president was a socialist, but it 0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:20.120 was just the same neo liberalism bullshit. So I think, 0:45:20.200 --> 0:45:22.600 you know, voting is great, but like that's just not 0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:27.040 enough and so you have to, um, you know, get 0:45:27.080 --> 0:45:30.160 out in the streets and try to organize and make 0:45:30.200 --> 0:45:34.560 real change in other ways as well. All right, yeah, 0:45:34.920 --> 0:45:38.200 I agree entirely. Thank you all for coming on. Um, 0:45:39.160 --> 0:45:41.480 you couldn't appreciate it more. And and I hope you 0:45:41.560 --> 0:45:45.800 have a lovely rest of your day and a lovely 0:45:46.120 --> 0:45:50.200 continuing to uh stick it to the sons of bitches, 0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:07.719 welcome back to it could happen here. The show that 0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:12.160 is only introduced competently when either someone besides me is 0:46:12.200 --> 0:46:15.000 the one hosting the episode, or when I have a 0:46:15.040 --> 0:46:20.120 guest that I feel embarrassed about being incompetent in front of. 0:46:20.280 --> 0:46:23.240 And and this is this is the latter case, because 0:46:23.239 --> 0:46:29.080 today I'm talking with Uh, my friend and admired colleague, 0:46:29.200 --> 0:46:33.120 Molly Conjure. Molly, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. 0:46:33.520 --> 0:46:35.320 I got to do that like a professional. Welcome to 0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:38.759 the show. That's like an NPR shit right. I know 0:46:38.800 --> 0:46:40.320 people have been saying on the Twitch stream that I 0:46:40.360 --> 0:46:43.720 have a very soothing NPR style voint. You would be great. 0:46:43.760 --> 0:46:46.760 I would love to hear you, uh talking in NPR 0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:49.680 about how it's it's rad that those those people broke 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:51.920 the windows on those police cars or whatever. No, I 0:46:52.160 --> 0:46:54.759 can't be allowed in respectable spaces. I can't be allowed there. 0:46:54.760 --> 0:46:56.520 They let me talk on a panel at Harvard one 0:46:56.560 --> 0:46:58.120 time and I actually said fuck in front of a 0:46:58.120 --> 0:47:02.640 bunch of people. I mean, I assume Harvard students know 0:47:02.760 --> 0:47:07.359 a funk word or two. Speaking of funk words, there's 0:47:07.400 --> 0:47:09.919 a couple of funk words who are under trial right 0:47:09.920 --> 0:47:16.080 now for inciting mass violence that led to human death 0:47:16.080 --> 0:47:18.880 and suffering. Um, you wanna you want to give us 0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:23.200 the overview we're we're talking today about, you know, the 0:47:23.280 --> 0:47:25.160 Unite the Right rally and Charles Well in two thousand 0:47:25.239 --> 0:47:27.800 seventeen that led to three deaths, one as the result 0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:30.320 of direct violence. Had their higher who was murdered murdered 0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:35.200 by the fascist James Field currently in prison for forever. UM, Yeah, 0:47:35.280 --> 0:47:40.400 forever that you know, his trial concluded a while ago. UM, 0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:44.319 but there has been churning through the legal system a 0:47:44.400 --> 0:47:50.000 trial against Richard Spencer Jason Kessler, who was the main organizer. 0:47:50.280 --> 0:47:55.600 UM can't well, there's other uh plaintiffs right, Yeah, a 0:47:55.640 --> 0:47:58.640 lot of a lot of fascists about you know, all 0:47:58.680 --> 0:48:01.200 of the things that they did, the fact that they 0:48:01.239 --> 0:48:07.239 clearly intended this to be a violent uh riot assault whatever, like, 0:48:07.280 --> 0:48:10.680 they wanted to have it be a fucking lynching essentially, 0:48:10.760 --> 0:48:13.160 And there's a lot of evidence, including things they said 0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:18.400 to each other about building armies to murder people. UM. Anyway, Molly, 0:48:18.480 --> 0:48:19.960 you want to take it from here, I think I've 0:48:20.000 --> 0:48:23.279 introduced the situation. There's a trial going on. You have 0:48:23.360 --> 0:48:25.880 been listening to every day of it and covering it 0:48:25.920 --> 0:48:28.560 on twitch very ably, UM, And so I just kind 0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:30.359 of wanted to catch up with you. You also wrote 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:35.040 an article in Slate with our friend Emily Gortchynsky about um, 0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:38.520 what's like largely the jury selection of the trial. So 0:48:38.600 --> 0:48:40.359 I was wondering if you could just kind of give 0:48:40.440 --> 0:48:42.520 us an overview of what's happened so far. If your 0:48:42.560 --> 0:48:47.160 thoughts on it, um that that seems that seems good. Yeah. 0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:49.960 So there's just right at the outset, this is a 0:48:50.000 --> 0:48:52.120 civil trial, right, this is not a criminal trial, and 0:48:52.160 --> 0:48:53.799 no one's going to the No one's going to jail 0:48:53.840 --> 0:48:55.920 at the end of this. Some of the jail we 0:48:56.000 --> 0:48:59.160 call it, oh, what's that? The Who's goal? We call 0:48:59.200 --> 0:49:04.080 it the Who's goal on the show. That's the property. Okay, Um, 0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:05.839 some of them ality in jail obviously, Like you said, 0:49:05.880 --> 0:49:10.239 James Fields is serving twenty nine life sentences to life. 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:12.840 It's a lot of life. So he was he was 0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:16.480 charged in in Virginia State court by the Commonwealth of Virginia. 0:49:16.560 --> 0:49:19.040 He was convicted at trial of first degree murder and 0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:23.000 several counts of aggravated malicious wounding. Um. He was so 0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:26.000 that trial happened in he actually went to trial for that, 0:49:26.320 --> 0:49:28.680 but then he pleaded guilty in federal courts. He was 0:49:28.760 --> 0:49:31.640 charged in two separate courts for the same underlying events, 0:49:31.920 --> 0:49:35.000 and in federal court he pleaded guilty to twenty nine 0:49:35.040 --> 0:49:38.919 federal hate crimes. Um. He pleaded guilty to hate crimes. 0:49:38.960 --> 0:49:41.560 So there's no debate about whether these were hate crimes, right, 0:49:42.080 --> 0:49:44.319 and he pleaded guilty too. He pleaded guilty to avoid 0:49:44.360 --> 0:49:47.080 the death penalty because a hate crime, murder is a 0:49:47.120 --> 0:49:51.480 capital crime. So in this lawsuit, right, this this civil 0:49:51.560 --> 0:49:55.920 lawsuit against Deep Breath, Jason Kesler, Richard Spencer, Christopher Campbell, 0:49:56.000 --> 0:49:58.680 James alex Field, bang On America Andrew England, Moonbase Holdings, 0:49:58.760 --> 0:50:01.840 Robert Asmond, Raid, Nathan To, Miko Elliott Klein, Identity Europe 0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:05.359 and Matthew Parrot, Matthew Hindbuch, Traditionalist Worker Party, Michael Hill, 0:50:05.400 --> 0:50:07.000 Michael Tubsley and the South Jeff Scooped. Now that the 0:50:07.080 --> 0:50:09.919 National Socialist Movement, Nationals Front, Augustus and Victus, Reternal Order 0:50:09.960 --> 0:50:12.600 of the Alt Knights, Mike Kindovinch, Loyal White Knights of 0:50:12.600 --> 0:50:14.879 the KKK East Coast, Nights of the KKK East Coast, 0:50:14.960 --> 0:50:17.680 Knights of the True Invisible Empire, Several of those parties 0:50:17.800 --> 0:50:22.440 have been dismissed from the suit. That's a lot, It's 0:50:22.440 --> 0:50:24.640 a lot of bad guys, right, um. Several of those 0:50:24.640 --> 0:50:27.000 parties have been dismissed from the suit. Augustus and Victus 0:50:27.080 --> 0:50:31.320 defaulted Pine dismission. That means the fact that he defaulted 0:50:31.320 --> 0:50:35.280 does that mean he was like, yes, right, he offered 0:50:35.400 --> 0:50:38.359 no defense, So that's what that means. Yeah, I mean 0:50:38.400 --> 0:50:40.359 he's been dealing with a lot. What would he He's 0:50:40.400 --> 0:50:44.719 had some problems, he's been jails, he had he abducted 0:50:44.760 --> 0:50:47.960 his wife at gunpoint. Um. I think he's out of 0:50:48.040 --> 0:50:50.799 jail now. But he's had some personal problems. He's had 0:50:50.800 --> 0:50:54.440 some personal problems. So the underlying claim with the lawsuit 0:50:54.600 --> 0:50:58.440 is a section complaint, a conspiracy to deprive people of 0:50:58.480 --> 0:51:01.480 civil rights. This isundamentally, at its at its core, an 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:06.440 anti clan statute. Right, it was designed to disrupt clan organizing. Um. 0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:08.879 And that's kind of what it's being used for here, right. 0:51:08.880 --> 0:51:14.600 This is so the lawsuit was brought by by nine 0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:17.800 plaintiffs who were harmed people who got hurt at the rally. 0:51:17.880 --> 0:51:20.920 Most of the plaintiffs were physically injured in the car attack, 0:51:20.960 --> 0:51:24.040 although not all of them. Um, But these are people 0:51:24.160 --> 0:51:28.000 who are seeking damages, right, Like for all all the 0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:31.680 emotional weight, all the sort of social ramifications. Fundamentally, this 0:51:31.760 --> 0:51:33.920 is a case about damages. So the jury is going 0:51:33.960 --> 0:51:36.800 to say, Okay, these people were harmed, do we believe 0:51:36.840 --> 0:51:40.560 they were harmed by a conspiracy to commit acts of violence, 0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:44.160 conspiracy to commit racially motivated accidents. Right, so all of 0:51:44.200 --> 0:51:47.439 those elements have to improve. And there was guys want 0:51:47.520 --> 0:51:51.040 to do racial violence when they assaulted people? Yeah, was 0:51:51.120 --> 0:51:55.279 their conspiracy? Was it motivated by racial animus? And were 0:51:55.360 --> 0:51:58.480 overt acts of violence committed? And did those acts of 0:51:58.560 --> 0:52:01.920 violence harm these people in a way that entitles them 0:52:01.920 --> 0:52:05.279 to damages? That's all the jury has to decide. Right, 0:52:05.440 --> 0:52:10.720 should be an open shed case, But it does seem 0:52:10.760 --> 0:52:14.719 like kind of an open and shut case. It does. Right, So, 0:52:15.040 --> 0:52:18.040 if there are people out there who are not familiar 0:52:18.080 --> 0:52:21.080 with the events of that day, a lot of alt 0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:24.840 right groups, you know, overt neo Nazi organizations, the Literal Clan, 0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:28.880 the literal American Nazi Party, like Neo Confederate secession. David's 0:52:28.960 --> 0:52:32.160 Duke was there. David Duke was there, David Duke, who 0:52:32.200 --> 0:52:35.640 Elliott Klein described as an ideological grandfather when he was 0:52:35.680 --> 0:52:40.680 asking other organizers that he can invite him. Um, these 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:43.680 guys came together, they came to Charlottesville. They brawled in 0:52:43.760 --> 0:52:46.280 the streets, they beat people, they hit them with shields. 0:52:46.840 --> 0:52:49.760 A Literal Clan wizard fired his gun at a black 0:52:49.760 --> 0:52:53.480 band while screaming die N word. Well, now, okay, it 0:52:53.520 --> 0:52:57.560 seems like you're reaching a bit to call that racially motivated. Well, 0:52:57.719 --> 0:53:04.480 that's something they're trying to litigate, right, So you're probably 0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:07.160 familiar with the video of DeAndre Harris being beaten nearly 0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:10.640 to death by members of several different hate groups, right. 0:53:10.680 --> 0:53:12.279 So one of the guys that beat him was a 0:53:12.280 --> 0:53:13.919 tv a P member, one of them was a League 0:53:13.920 --> 0:53:17.160 of the South member, and they worked together to beat 0:53:17.200 --> 0:53:19.160 this young man nearly to death while he was lying 0:53:19.200 --> 0:53:21.200 on the ground. And so that today they were talking 0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:24.120 about like, well, can we really say that was racially motivated? 0:53:24.239 --> 0:53:28.799 You know, can we really say can we really say? Yeah, yeah, 0:53:28.840 --> 0:53:31.560 I think we can. I think we can. Um. You know, 0:53:31.680 --> 0:53:34.359 his mother has been on podcasts since his conviction. I'm 0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:36.920 referring to Jacob Goodwin, the t TPP member, the man 0:53:36.960 --> 0:53:40.040 who used a t w P riot shield provided to 0:53:40.160 --> 0:53:42.920 him by Matthew Heinbach to beat this young man. His 0:53:43.000 --> 0:53:45.720 mother goes on Nazi podcast still to describe how her 0:53:45.800 --> 0:53:49.759 son is a martyr for the white cause. There's no ambiguity. 0:53:49.880 --> 0:53:52.880 But where are you getting racially motivated from that moment? Right? 0:53:52.960 --> 0:53:55.120 Like there's a there's a picture of her with her 0:53:55.239 --> 0:53:57.200 arm around her son. Her sons like seven feet tall. 0:53:57.200 --> 0:53:59.279 He's a giant boy to get her arm around her 0:53:59.320 --> 0:54:01.600 large adults, and he's wearing a T shirt with a 0:54:01.680 --> 0:54:06.120 giant picture of George Lincoln Rockwell on it. Ah, you 0:54:06.200 --> 0:54:10.400 love the deep cuts, so you know. And Billy Roper's 0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:15.560 Christmas party. Yeah, another another Nazi, right, So there's not 0:54:15.640 --> 0:54:18.239 a lot of ambiguity here for the average person, but 0:54:18.840 --> 0:54:20.080 so you know, like you were saying, Emily and I 0:54:20.120 --> 0:54:24.560 wrote about jury selection, jury selection is um so corporate 0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:27.040 seedings are generally speaking open to the public. Anyone can 0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:29.239 go to their local courthouse and you can sit through 0:54:29.239 --> 0:54:31.120 a trial. You can sit through the war deer process. 0:54:31.160 --> 0:54:34.120 You can see how a jury gets chosen. You can 0:54:34.160 --> 0:54:38.200 go trial hopping, get wasted re entertainment. As long as 0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:41.360 you say quietly, they can't make you leave. It's like 0:54:41.400 --> 0:54:48.520 a library's very discouraging, because the whole point is to 0:54:48.560 --> 0:54:52.720 pic jurors who have never encountered reality. You pick people 0:54:52.760 --> 0:54:56.239 who don't have any opinions, right because you want them 0:54:56.239 --> 0:54:58.040 to be able to be impartial. And the best way 0:54:58.040 --> 0:54:59.640 to make sure your jury is going to be impartial 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:04.040 is to people who don't have any opinions. And if 0:55:04.040 --> 0:55:06.319 you don't have any opinions on whether or not it's 0:55:06.360 --> 0:55:09.200 good for Nazis to beat people in the streets, I 0:55:09.239 --> 0:55:11.040 would say that in and of itself as an opinion 0:55:11.080 --> 0:55:14.040 that you already have right the ability do not have 0:55:14.080 --> 0:55:17.000 an opinion about that. So the jury selection took three 0:55:17.080 --> 0:55:20.160 days because they had to go through this process of 0:55:20.200 --> 0:55:22.640 speaking to each juror individually. Usually they'll they'll do it 0:55:22.680 --> 0:55:26.160 in batches where they ask questions of people in batches, um. 0:55:26.239 --> 0:55:28.239 But this was so sensitive they didn't want to taint 0:55:28.280 --> 0:55:29.759 the jury pool, so they did it one by one. 0:55:29.760 --> 0:55:33.240 So it took three days um, and they chose jurors 0:55:33.239 --> 0:55:36.440 who didn't have opinions about the existence of racism in 0:55:36.480 --> 0:55:40.560 the United States. Okay, that seems unbiased. Again, it's this 0:55:40.600 --> 0:55:43.000 thing you keep seeing where it's like, well, we can't 0:55:43.080 --> 0:55:45.160 let people have a bias, so it has to be 0:55:45.239 --> 0:55:48.520 people who have never heard of white supremacy, which is like, 0:55:48.719 --> 0:55:51.040 then that's a bias in favor of white supremacy. But 0:55:51.400 --> 0:55:53.799 of course that's the default of the system. It's like 0:55:54.080 --> 0:55:56.840 that's the tear right, like you stick white supremacy on 0:55:56.880 --> 0:55:59.200 the scale and you tear it, but then you add 0:55:59.600 --> 0:56:02.600 awayness of white supremacy and suddenly there's weight on it. 0:56:02.680 --> 0:56:06.279 You know, it's sorry, it's very fresh. I know, you know, 0:56:06.360 --> 0:56:10.040 it's frustrating and mean, yeah, I shouldn't. It was frustrating 0:56:10.080 --> 0:56:12.200 to sit through listening to them to ask people, you know, 0:56:12.239 --> 0:56:13.960 because they had to fill out a questionnaire ahead of 0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:16.120 time so so they can sort of sift through obvious 0:56:16.239 --> 0:56:18.480 knows um. And one of the questions was, you know, 0:56:18.560 --> 0:56:21.520 how do you feel about how concerned are you about 0:56:21.560 --> 0:56:24.520 these different kinds of prejudice, you know, prejudice against black people, 0:56:24.560 --> 0:56:27.360 prejudice against Hispanic people, prejudice against Jewish people, are prejudice 0:56:27.360 --> 0:56:30.080 against white people. And a lot of people indicated that 0:56:30.120 --> 0:56:34.040 they were very concerned about anti white racism, and a 0:56:34.080 --> 0:56:36.920 lot of jurors were asked follow up questions about like, well, 0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:39.560 why aren't you more concerned about anti white racism? Why 0:56:39.600 --> 0:56:41.839 did you say you don't care about that because it's 0:56:41.840 --> 0:56:44.400 not real. Yeah, because I've never seen it in my 0:56:44.560 --> 0:56:50.959 entire life. Um, but okay, but we seated a jury. 0:56:51.000 --> 0:56:52.360 We did see the jury, and there were you know, 0:56:52.400 --> 0:56:54.440 there's always concerned in a case like this that you 0:56:54.480 --> 0:56:56.880 just won't be able to get an impartial jury. But 0:56:56.920 --> 0:57:01.520 we got it could be worse, right, it could be worse. Um. 0:57:01.560 --> 0:57:03.360 There is a guy on the jury who said that 0:57:03.400 --> 0:57:05.160 in high school he was the victim of a racially 0:57:05.200 --> 0:57:09.839 motivated attack by by a Samoan person, um because they 0:57:09.840 --> 0:57:14.799 didn't like white people. M hmm, I wonder what that 0:57:14.880 --> 0:57:19.000 person was doing. Slash say, black people who believe that 0:57:19.040 --> 0:57:22.280 they have a right to exist without being subjected to racism, 0:57:22.280 --> 0:57:25.000 not impartial can't be on the jury. But a white 0:57:25.000 --> 0:57:26.560 guy who says he was the victim of a hate 0:57:26.560 --> 0:57:33.840 crime because someone didn't like Howley's God, so people talking 0:57:33.880 --> 0:57:35.919 about like I don't like it when folks not from 0:57:35.920 --> 0:57:39.320 my island come here and function up and make it expensive. Yeah, 0:57:39.320 --> 0:57:43.640 that's anti white racist. He was living in incredible incredible, 0:57:44.760 --> 0:57:46.840 So you know, it could be a worster, It could 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:50.439 be a worse jury. But it's not ideal. Um, God, 0:57:50.440 --> 0:57:52.920 where did we go from there? It's been it's been 0:57:52.920 --> 0:57:55.840 a little bit of a blur. Um. So Cantwell and 0:57:55.880 --> 0:58:00.160 Spencer don't have lawyers, right, well yeah, okay, so right, 0:58:00.200 --> 0:58:02.640 because can't Well, can't can't well, it is for people 0:58:02.640 --> 0:58:05.440 who aren't aware, can't well is representing himself and tell 0:58:05.480 --> 0:58:07.560 correct me if I'm wrong here. But he started by 0:58:07.600 --> 0:58:11.120 acknowledging the old saying that a person who represents themselves 0:58:11.120 --> 0:58:13.120 as a fool as a lawyer, but then said, but 0:58:13.200 --> 0:58:15.919 I'm not a fool in this case. Yeah, he said, 0:58:15.920 --> 0:58:18.840 you may have heard this, but that's not true here. 0:58:19.080 --> 0:58:25.040 That's not the case here. Unbelievable. Just and I didn't 0:58:25.040 --> 0:58:28.160 even stay in a holiday and Express last night. Oh 0:58:28.200 --> 0:58:31.840 my god. Really he seriously made a holiday and Express 0:58:31.960 --> 0:58:34.560 joke while he was oh my god. But the follow up, 0:58:34.680 --> 0:58:37.200 the follow up was, but I did stay in the 0:58:37.240 --> 0:58:41.360 Central Virginia Regional Jail because that is where he stays. Yeah, 0:58:41.400 --> 0:58:44.280 I mean because he's he's in prison for sexually or 0:58:44.320 --> 0:58:49.720 not for for harassing and threatening and blackmailing another Nazi, right, yeah, yeah. 0:58:49.800 --> 0:58:53.760 He was transported here from the federal prison in mary 0:58:53.760 --> 0:58:58.760 in Illinois, where he is a guest until next Christmas. Um, 0:58:58.800 --> 0:59:01.280 so he had filed motion is to exclude the fact 0:59:01.280 --> 0:59:03.560 that he's currently incarcerated, as is his right right, Like 0:59:03.600 --> 0:59:07.120 if you are a yeah, yeah, absolutely involved in a 0:59:07.400 --> 0:59:09.880 in a criminal case or in A. In a civil case, 0:59:09.920 --> 0:59:11.760 it is it is your right to have the jury 0:59:11.800 --> 0:59:13.960 not see you in a jumpsuit, and I respect that. 0:59:14.000 --> 0:59:17.439 I think that's absolutely yea. So he went to great 0:59:17.440 --> 0:59:19.320 links to make sure that the jury would never see 0:59:19.360 --> 0:59:21.720 him in cuffs, that the marshals wouldn't bring him in irons, 0:59:21.760 --> 0:59:24.000 that he would change before the jury arrived at the coronels. 0:59:24.040 --> 0:59:26.280 All very reasonable, and no one's going to get to 0:59:26.320 --> 0:59:28.120 talk about it, but he brought it up in his 0:59:28.160 --> 0:59:32.720 own opening statement. I'm here from prison. I'm here from prison. 0:59:33.400 --> 0:59:35.640 By the way, I'm in prison for the other crimes 0:59:35.640 --> 0:59:38.560 I committed. But they're not related to these crimes. They're 0:59:38.600 --> 0:59:41.440 not related to these crimes except to the extent that 0:59:41.480 --> 0:59:44.840 he's unable to shut the funk up. He's only in 0:59:44.920 --> 0:59:47.800 prison because he emailed the FBI or recording him him 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:50.240 doing the crime that he's in prison for. He's he's 0:59:50.280 --> 0:59:54.600 really a very cunning man. But I think, you know, so, 0:59:54.640 --> 0:59:56.680 as much as those crimes aren't relevant to this case, 0:59:56.720 --> 0:59:59.400 I think it is very relevant to his trial strategy, 0:59:59.560 --> 1:00:02.040 right that he has this belief that all the things 1:00:02.080 --> 1:00:04.480 he did that were wrong, they were right. Actually he 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:07.040 just needs to explain to us why he did them, 1:00:07.040 --> 1:00:11.080 and then we'll understand. Right, he's in prison because he 1:00:11.160 --> 1:00:13.360 tried to talk his way out of a thing that 1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:16.240 he did that was wrong by telling everyone that he 1:00:16.280 --> 1:00:18.600 did do it. Yes, I did it because I have to. 1:00:20.200 --> 1:00:23.360 You didn't have to make an extortionate threat to rape 1:00:23.400 --> 1:00:25.680 another man's wife in front of their children. You didn't 1:00:25.680 --> 1:00:28.080 actually have to do that. Yeah, that's really I mean 1:00:28.120 --> 1:00:30.760 I would I might argue, and perhaps I'm an extremist, 1:00:30.840 --> 1:00:33.120 but there's no situation in which you would ever have 1:00:33.200 --> 1:00:37.360 to do that. Nobody made you email the FBI about 1:00:37.400 --> 1:00:41.600 how you did that, but you did. I would have 1:00:41.640 --> 1:00:44.360 told you that was a bad idea. I mean, there's 1:00:44.360 --> 1:00:46.400 saying there's some snarky stuff in some in some of 1:00:46.440 --> 1:00:49.160 the affidavits about how like he called the Keen Police 1:00:49.200 --> 1:00:51.720 Department trying to tattle tale on other people so often 1:00:51.720 --> 1:00:54.880 that they were tired of taking his calls. Unbelievable, What 1:00:54.960 --> 1:00:58.120 an amazing man, Like he's a piece of ship, but 1:00:58.200 --> 1:01:01.840 he is legitimately an incredible person. I mean, if he 1:01:01.920 --> 1:01:03.960 wrote this, no one would believe it. Right, this is 1:01:04.000 --> 1:01:06.520 so heavy handed, it's so goofy, Like when he was 1:01:06.640 --> 1:01:10.520 paying Elmer in guns his law He paid his lawyer 1:01:10.560 --> 1:01:12.320 in guns, and then he ran out of guns and 1:01:12.400 --> 1:01:16.560 had his lawyer stopped working for him. Yeah, he doesn't 1:01:16.560 --> 1:01:18.760 have a lawyer anymore because he ran out of guns 1:01:18.800 --> 1:01:21.080 to pawn. Although I guess he can't anymore because now 1:01:21.160 --> 1:01:24.560 he's a convicted I gotta say, running out of guns 1:01:24.560 --> 1:01:30.320 to pawn for your lawyer, it's pretty cocked. He even 1:01:30.320 --> 1:01:32.520 had to sell the bucket of loose bullets he used 1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:35.160 to keep us a prop on his desk, I mean, 1:01:35.240 --> 1:01:39.560 really devastating stuff. Um, so he doesn't You're you're down 1:01:39.560 --> 1:01:41.600 to the brad, You're down to the rails when you're 1:01:41.600 --> 1:01:45.360 two with that really the bottom of the barrel. So 1:01:45.400 --> 1:01:50.000 he's proceeding pro sae, which, unfortunately, unfortunately for everyone involved, 1:01:50.200 --> 1:01:53.120 means he gets to talk a lot, a lot, a 1:01:53.160 --> 1:01:55.320 lot a lot, which means he gets to cross examine 1:01:55.400 --> 1:01:58.240 his own witnesses. Right, So the first two witnesses the 1:01:58.240 --> 1:02:01.040 plaintiffs put on were two of their plaintiffs, right, two 1:02:01.080 --> 1:02:04.040 young people who were injured in these events. The first 1:02:04.040 --> 1:02:07.080 witness they put on Natalie. It's the v a student 1:02:07.080 --> 1:02:09.640 who had her skull fractured in the car attack. Um, 1:02:09.800 --> 1:02:11.880 she had to learn how to walk again, she had 1:02:11.880 --> 1:02:15.440 to see a neurologist to retrain her eyes to track movement. 1:02:15.680 --> 1:02:19.400 I mean, she was very badly injured. Um. And so 1:02:19.440 --> 1:02:22.400 she testified at length about the damage that was done 1:02:22.400 --> 1:02:24.240 to her. Because again, this is a case about damages. 1:02:24.280 --> 1:02:26.600 So the jury needs to learn who is this person, 1:02:26.720 --> 1:02:29.800 what happened to them, what did it cost them physically, mentally, emotionally, 1:02:29.800 --> 1:02:32.680 financially um, Because what they're gonna be asked to do 1:02:32.720 --> 1:02:34.080 is to put a dollar amount on it. So they 1:02:34.080 --> 1:02:37.680 had to meet her and hear about her injuries, UM, 1:02:37.720 --> 1:02:41.320 and hear about her motivation for being there. Um. You know, 1:02:41.360 --> 1:02:44.120 she's a young queer Latino woman as she's the first 1:02:44.120 --> 1:02:46.800 college student in her family, and she's a very impressive 1:02:46.800 --> 1:02:49.320 young woman, and she was very composed of the stand 1:02:49.400 --> 1:02:53.160 um as awful as the content was. Um. But then 1:02:53.200 --> 1:02:55.720 every single one of the defendants gets to cross examine her. 1:02:56.280 --> 1:02:59.200 Richard Spencer gets a cross examine her. Christopher camp Well 1:02:59.240 --> 1:03:01.680 gets to cross exam and her. James Klenich who took 1:03:01.720 --> 1:03:04.680 the case. He's Kessler Demigo and Identity Europe's lawyer, James Klenicch. 1:03:04.680 --> 1:03:07.800 She's an Ohio based attorney who said on the record 1:03:07.800 --> 1:03:10.000 that he took this case with the express purpose of 1:03:10.040 --> 1:03:16.120 opposing Jewish influence. Great Great Klenich gets to cross examined 1:03:16.160 --> 1:03:19.240 her matt Heimbuck's new lawyer, Josh Smith used to be 1:03:19.280 --> 1:03:25.200 the campaign spokesman for Paul Neilan, wasn't endorsed by Trump 1:03:25.240 --> 1:03:27.760 at one point in his run for Congress, and as 1:03:27.800 --> 1:03:30.600 also just a straight up Nazi who's repeatedly threatened to 1:03:30.640 --> 1:03:33.600 murder you. Yeah. Yeah. One time he spent all day 1:03:33.600 --> 1:03:35.600 posting pictures of a deer that he said that he 1:03:35.720 --> 1:03:37.720 named after me. He said, I named this dear Molly. 1:03:37.760 --> 1:03:39.600 You know, he's been all day stalking at posting pictures 1:03:39.600 --> 1:03:41.520 of it, posting pictures of his gun um. And then 1:03:41.520 --> 1:03:44.280 he posted a picture of the dear stage like a lynching, 1:03:44.880 --> 1:03:48.040 and then he spelled my name out in its entrails 1:03:48.160 --> 1:03:50.480 and posted pictures of that. So you're just like a 1:03:50.520 --> 1:03:55.240 really normal guy Paul Neilan, which totally completely with it um. 1:03:55.400 --> 1:03:59.400 His campaign spokesperson when he ran for Congress was the 1:03:59.400 --> 1:04:04.560 Holocaust denying um former jew Josh Smith. Josh Smith was 1:04:04.560 --> 1:04:08.160 born Daniel Nussbaum. He changed his name to hide his 1:04:08.240 --> 1:04:12.360 Jewish past. Oh, that is an old story among the Nazis. 1:04:12.600 --> 1:04:16.760 I mean we talked about the guy who invented uh 1:04:16.760 --> 1:04:19.640 sea monkeys. But yeah, it's basically the same case. And 1:04:19.720 --> 1:04:25.600 you know who else hides their I okay, Um, this 1:04:25.760 --> 1:04:28.120 was meant to be an ad plug. Normally Sophie would 1:04:28.200 --> 1:04:31.480 jump in and stop me from doing that. None of 1:04:31.520 --> 1:04:35.960 these advertise, none of these advisers are plaintiffs in the 1:04:36.040 --> 1:04:39.440 current case that you're covering. That's a guarantee, that is, 1:04:39.480 --> 1:04:42.840 that is an absolute promise. David Duke is not about 1:04:42.880 --> 1:04:45.800 to sell you dick pills. No, no, no, although he 1:04:45.840 --> 1:04:50.080 could use them. We're back, Um, all right, Molly, sorry, 1:04:50.120 --> 1:04:53.840 please continue. God where were we got distracted thinking about 1:04:53.920 --> 1:04:56.120 David Duke trying to sill you dick pills? Yeah? I 1:04:56.200 --> 1:04:59.160 have That's not good for anybody, right, so everybody gets 1:04:59.160 --> 1:05:01.240 to cross examined the waiting. It's Josh Smith is Himbo's 1:05:01.320 --> 1:05:03.680 new lawyer. Um Colennich used to be a lot of 1:05:03.720 --> 1:05:05.880 these guys lawyers, and then he sort of dropped them 1:05:05.880 --> 1:05:08.200 over time as they became uncooperative. They are all these 1:05:08.200 --> 1:05:12.439 motions to withdraw. Klench slowly dropped clients over the last 1:05:12.440 --> 1:05:15.360 two years. Um, he dropped can't Well as a client 1:05:15.360 --> 1:05:18.240 because kent Well wouldn't stop posting about hurting Roberta Kaplan, 1:05:19.880 --> 1:05:22.960 who's the lead counsel for the plaintiffs. ROBERTA Kaplan, Femish, 1:05:23.160 --> 1:05:27.280 famous Jewish lesbian lawyer. You know, she was on the 1:05:26.760 --> 1:05:32.200 US v. Windsor the I'm losing it, absolutely losing it, 1:05:32.360 --> 1:05:34.880 the Supreme Court case that gave us gay marriage right. 1:05:34.920 --> 1:05:38.480 ROBERTA Kaplan brought us gay marriage essentially. So she, you know, 1:05:38.680 --> 1:05:41.760 famous Jewish lesbian that is a well known portion of 1:05:41.760 --> 1:05:44.800 her identity and can't Well kept posting um anti semitic 1:05:44.840 --> 1:05:47.000 remarks about her. And finally Klennch was like, you're making 1:05:47.040 --> 1:05:49.320 it really hard to be your lawyer, and you don't 1:05:49.320 --> 1:05:54.720 pay me. Um. And Colennich dropped Heimbach as a client 1:05:54.840 --> 1:06:00.640 in twenty nineteen because Heimbuch just stopped answering his calls. Um. 1:06:00.800 --> 1:06:05.600 Great smart people. Yeah. So Matt Parrott, who's Matt Heimbuck's 1:06:06.160 --> 1:06:10.680 father in law but also the husband of the woman 1:06:10.720 --> 1:06:13.960 that he was sleeping. This complicated. There's a chart. There's 1:06:14.000 --> 1:06:16.680 a chart. Matt Heimbuck and Matt parrot um founders of 1:06:16.680 --> 1:06:19.080 the Traditional Worker Party, Best friends for a long time. 1:06:19.200 --> 1:06:23.000 FIL's wives big problems, big problems for them. The Night 1:06:23.040 --> 1:06:25.600 of Wrong Wives, The Night of the Wrong Wives. So 1:06:27.520 --> 1:06:31.280 Matt Parrot was technically Matt Heimbach's father in law during 1:06:31.280 --> 1:06:36.360 the time pariod which Heimbach was fucking Parrot's wife. Very 1:06:36.400 --> 1:06:40.800 classy people, not a great situation. So they lost their lawyer. 1:06:41.040 --> 1:06:45.600 UM Parrot very publicly told all Traditionalist Worker Party members 1:06:45.600 --> 1:06:49.440 to destroy evidence. UM so we knew that, right that 1:06:49.480 --> 1:06:51.120 was on the record from the beginning that Matt Parrot 1:06:51.280 --> 1:06:53.000 was like, hey, everyone in t t VP, if you 1:06:53.080 --> 1:06:57.280 did any crimes, delete it right, delete your social media, 1:06:57.360 --> 1:07:01.680 delete your pictures. Like we weren't there, right, that's a crime. 1:07:02.280 --> 1:07:06.000 That's a crime, is a crime, right there. But an 1:07:06.040 --> 1:07:08.200 interesting thing that we learned to date, but I don't 1:07:08.240 --> 1:07:13.560 think we did know before. Um. In November, so they 1:07:13.560 --> 1:07:17.120 played a recording of a conversation between Matt Heimbuch and 1:07:17.200 --> 1:07:20.400 Christopher Can't Well And this was during examination of Heimbuch. 1:07:20.560 --> 1:07:23.240 Heimbuck was on the stand and they're talking about like, 1:07:23.280 --> 1:07:25.400 you know, you didn't produce discovery. You said you lost 1:07:25.440 --> 1:07:27.160 your phone, this, that and the other. You know, after 1:07:27.200 --> 1:07:31.440 you beat your wife, she threw away your phone. Um 1:07:31.480 --> 1:07:33.919 so he said I couldn't turn over my social media 1:07:33.920 --> 1:07:36.560 accounts because my wife deleted them because we had an 1:07:36.600 --> 1:07:38.800 argument about me taking out the trash, right like, we 1:07:38.840 --> 1:07:41.160 had this domestic dispute about the trash and she deleted 1:07:41.200 --> 1:07:44.600 all my accounts, so I couldn't turn them over. Um. Well, 1:07:44.680 --> 1:07:47.080 today we found out that he told Can't Well in 1:07:47.120 --> 1:07:49.680 ten so a year after the lawsuit was filed. When 1:07:49.720 --> 1:07:51.840 a lawsuit was filed against you, you have a legal 1:07:51.840 --> 1:07:56.080 obligation to not do things like this. He told Can't 1:07:56.080 --> 1:08:00.600 Well that after a conversation with his lawyer, the advice 1:08:00.640 --> 1:08:08.600 of his lawyer, he deleted those accounts. Oh oh, there's 1:08:08.640 --> 1:08:11.400 just a record of him criming. Yeah, that's a crime, 1:08:11.960 --> 1:08:13.760 and it's also a crime for his lawyer to have 1:08:13.840 --> 1:08:18.840 advised him to do that. Great. Um again, that's there's 1:08:18.840 --> 1:08:22.080 no direct evidence who told him to do that, but 1:08:22.120 --> 1:08:23.880 we do have a recording of him saying a lawyer 1:08:23.920 --> 1:08:25.960 told him to. So that's not great. That's not a 1:08:26.000 --> 1:08:28.839 good situation. Is he going to get charged with anything 1:08:28.880 --> 1:08:32.200 for that? I am curious. You know, I'm not a lawyer. 1:08:32.240 --> 1:08:34.120 Just for everyone listening, I'm not a lawyer. I didn't 1:08:34.120 --> 1:08:36.160 go to law school. I didn't even finish undergrad. I'm 1:08:36.200 --> 1:08:39.519 not a lawyer, um, but I have listened to a 1:08:39.560 --> 1:08:42.759 lot of lawyers. But I am I am curious, what 1:08:43.800 --> 1:08:48.000 with what frequenci Can perjury charges be sought in a 1:08:48.080 --> 1:08:51.280 civil case? Right, it's still under oath, like it is 1:08:51.280 --> 1:08:55.200 still perjury. But how common is that to be pursued 1:08:55.240 --> 1:09:00.880 because they're perjuring? Yeah, perjury perjurer doing the right always does, 1:09:00.920 --> 1:09:03.680 which is trust that the law will never actually come 1:09:03.720 --> 1:09:07.360 after them for their many crimes. And there's there's a 1:09:07.360 --> 1:09:10.519 good chance they'll be right. You know, like Himbach said, 1:09:10.600 --> 1:09:12.360 you know when he was asked, have you ever provided 1:09:12.400 --> 1:09:15.080 security for Richard Spencer? And he said no, And it's well, 1:09:15.080 --> 1:09:19.760 there's like a hundred pictures of you doing that multiple events. Um. 1:09:19.800 --> 1:09:21.680 You know, they're claiming they don't know each other, Like 1:09:21.720 --> 1:09:26.559 here's all these pictures of you guys hanging out. Um, god, 1:09:26.600 --> 1:09:31.160 where else are we? Um? Yeah, I'm curious. You know 1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:34.880 one thing that kind of especially because of the written 1:09:34.880 --> 1:09:37.920 house thing. And we're actually we'll be talking to lawyer 1:09:38.240 --> 1:09:42.080 tomorrow night about or tomorrow about the written house thing. Um, 1:09:42.120 --> 1:09:50.520 every cool person shares the same lawyer. Uh. Um. But yeah, 1:09:50.560 --> 1:09:52.240 because of that, I'm kind of curious, what do what 1:09:52.400 --> 1:09:55.880 is your what since do you get of this judge? 1:09:58.040 --> 1:10:00.840 There's no good judges, there's no judges. But it could 1:10:00.840 --> 1:10:03.880 be yeah, I mean, I'm not saying, but it could be. 1:10:03.920 --> 1:10:06.240 It could be a lot worse. You know, Trump appointed 1:10:06.280 --> 1:10:10.080 a shipload of federal judges pretty recently. Judgment is eighty 1:10:10.160 --> 1:10:13.799 five years old. He's a Clinton appointee. He's a Clinton appointee, 1:10:13.840 --> 1:10:17.080 so it's could be worse. He's been on the bench, 1:10:17.160 --> 1:10:20.160 you know since I was an elementary school. Um, and 1:10:20.200 --> 1:10:22.920 he's very old, and he doesn't he has it's a 1:10:22.920 --> 1:10:27.479 little bit hard of hearing, but he's not stupid. Um. 1:10:27.720 --> 1:10:29.080 There's a lot of people, I think we are really 1:10:29.120 --> 1:10:32.719 frustrated with some of the things he's allowing to happen. 1:10:32.800 --> 1:10:36.679 He's he's really allowing these these proceed defendants to sort 1:10:36.680 --> 1:10:40.160 of run rough shot over the procedure. But you know, 1:10:40.200 --> 1:10:43.160 like I said before we started recording, it's really hard 1:10:44.760 --> 1:10:49.639 to apply the Your sense of how things are supposed 1:10:49.680 --> 1:10:52.040 to work doesn't really apply in court. Right. There's a 1:10:52.120 --> 1:10:55.360 very rigid, sort of outdated set of rules and procedures 1:10:55.360 --> 1:10:58.840 and they don't feel right, they don't feel logical or 1:10:58.840 --> 1:11:01.800 reasonable or fair. There is a specific way that it works, 1:11:01.800 --> 1:11:03.720 and it is hard to watch, especially if you've never 1:11:03.760 --> 1:11:06.320 seen it before. And because of the emotionally fraught nature 1:11:06.360 --> 1:11:10.120 of this, it's particularly frustrating to be to be listening 1:11:10.120 --> 1:11:12.439 on this line and saying, like, why are they allowed 1:11:12.439 --> 1:11:16.000 to do this to this witness? Well, legally you can 1:11:16.120 --> 1:11:18.439 cross examine your witnesses, even if you are the person 1:11:18.479 --> 1:11:20.479 who hurt them. It's not a good system, but it 1:11:20.600 --> 1:11:24.600 is how it works. Um, but he's um And I 1:11:24.640 --> 1:11:27.639 also think there's there's concern about appellate issues. There's concerned 1:11:27.720 --> 1:11:30.280 about mistrial, and so they're really going out of their 1:11:30.280 --> 1:11:32.880 way not to give anyone any excuse to say, well, 1:11:32.880 --> 1:11:36.240 this was not fair to me. They're gonna say it anyway, 1:11:36.280 --> 1:11:39.880 but they they're really letting them have a long leash 1:11:40.000 --> 1:11:42.280 in a way that feels very bad. But at the 1:11:42.280 --> 1:11:46.320 same time I can kind of understand it. Yeah, I 1:11:46.360 --> 1:11:49.040 wish they hadn't done so much Holocaust denial, like on 1:11:49.320 --> 1:11:53.680 on the right. That good. They put an expert on 1:11:53.760 --> 1:11:57.920 today who's um Dr Debrah Lipstad, who's an expert in 1:11:57.960 --> 1:12:02.160 Holocaust denial to sort of talk about what the Holocaust is. 1:12:02.200 --> 1:12:05.479 I guess in case the jury doesn't know. God, that's bleak, 1:12:06.400 --> 1:12:10.799 I mean, that's sucking bleak because they chose this jury 1:12:10.800 --> 1:12:13.000 based on them never having heard of Jews. You know, 1:12:14.680 --> 1:12:16.880 it's a bunch of like middle aged people from Green 1:12:16.960 --> 1:12:19.000 County who have never met a Jewish person. So they 1:12:19.000 --> 1:12:21.680 had to put on a professor to say, okay, when 1:12:21.720 --> 1:12:24.920 he says gas the K words, we're talking about gas chambers, 1:12:25.040 --> 1:12:27.519 gas chambers from the Holocaust. They didn't start out with 1:12:27.520 --> 1:12:29.720 gas chambers. They started with mass shootings. But it was 1:12:29.760 --> 1:12:32.320 too messy. I mean she was literally recounting sort of 1:12:32.360 --> 1:12:35.519 the evolution from the Asens group and you know, shootings 1:12:35.520 --> 1:12:37.759 in the fields to the ka of the gas chambers. 1:12:37.800 --> 1:12:40.599 Like we had to talk all the way through it. 1:12:40.840 --> 1:12:46.480 Um because it seems unnecessary, but again for the jury 1:12:46.520 --> 1:12:50.040 it might be necessary. And so when Asma door Robert 1:12:50.040 --> 1:12:53.320 don't want to take anything for granted, you know, yeah, right, 1:12:53.640 --> 1:12:55.760 and you really have to sort of lay out these connections, right, 1:12:55.760 --> 1:12:58.280 because the idea is you have to prove a conspiracy, 1:12:58.280 --> 1:13:01.360 and you have to prove the conspiracy was racial motivated. Um. 1:13:01.400 --> 1:13:04.040 And so when Asma door is the racist wizard name 1:13:04.120 --> 1:13:06.320 that um Robert Ray uses when he writes for the 1:13:06.400 --> 1:13:09.320 Daily Stormer. When Asmador keeps saying, we're going to gas 1:13:09.320 --> 1:13:11.400 the K words, everyone knows what I mean when I 1:13:11.439 --> 1:13:15.240 say that, right, yes, yeah, okay, Um, you know he 1:13:15.600 --> 1:13:17.720 keeps saying, you know, the plan is to gas the 1:13:17.800 --> 1:13:20.400 K words. You know, G, T, K, R, W, N UM, 1:13:20.600 --> 1:13:22.519 guess the K words race war. Now he keeps saying, 1:13:22.560 --> 1:13:24.800 he keeps saying, keeps saying it. And then the Torch March, 1:13:25.439 --> 1:13:27.320 he Pepper sprays a bunch of people, which he is 1:13:27.320 --> 1:13:30.479 currently a fugitive of justice for UM. He's UM, he's 1:13:30.479 --> 1:13:35.880 wanted for felony in Almarle County. He's missing. UM. So 1:13:36.040 --> 1:13:37.840 he says he's going to do it, then he does it, 1:13:37.920 --> 1:13:41.000 and then afterwards he's on video saying, yeah, I guessed 1:13:41.040 --> 1:13:44.280 half a dozen K words, so you can see from 1:13:44.320 --> 1:13:46.040 A to B to C. And then we have this 1:13:46.120 --> 1:13:48.960 expert saying, Okay, what he's saying is a direct reference 1:13:49.000 --> 1:13:53.800 to the Holocaust, right, Um, It's like he's like you said, 1:13:53.840 --> 1:13:56.439 it's pretty open and shut. It's pretty straightforward A to 1:13:56.560 --> 1:13:59.200 B two c. Um. You know we have these discord 1:13:59.280 --> 1:14:01.879 leaks if you want to browse them. They're on Unicorn 1:14:01.960 --> 1:14:05.559 Riot and almost immediately after the rally, Unicorn Riot had 1:14:05.560 --> 1:14:09.200 these discord leaks. UM the entire server, the Charlesville two 1:14:09.240 --> 1:14:11.599 point oh server where they planned this out, where they're 1:14:11.600 --> 1:14:13.960 in the discord saying yeah, it's gonna be so great. 1:14:14.000 --> 1:14:15.720 We're gonna do just so much violence. We're gonna we're 1:14:15.720 --> 1:14:17.880 gonna hurt people, We're gonna bring shield, we're gonna bring base, 1:14:18.400 --> 1:14:21.960 really explicitly talking about the plan, making jokes about hitting 1:14:21.960 --> 1:14:26.000 people with cars. UM. Now that the entire discord will 1:14:26.000 --> 1:14:30.120 be admitted, UM, it has been authenticated. They received another 1:14:30.160 --> 1:14:32.719 copy of it via subpoena directly from discord. It's real. 1:14:33.439 --> 1:14:35.800 It's evidence, UM, as much as Campbell doesn't like that. 1:14:38.320 --> 1:14:42.479 But more than that, UM, we have, you know, some 1:14:42.640 --> 1:14:46.879 first person authentication. We heard deposition testimony from Elliott Klein's 1:14:46.880 --> 1:14:49.559 ex girlfriend, UM, the woman that he was living with 1:14:49.600 --> 1:14:52.040 in seventeen. So in the summer of seventeen, he was 1:14:52.280 --> 1:14:54.280 living with this woman that he had just met and 1:14:54.280 --> 1:14:58.040 it entered into a romantic relationship with UM. She has 1:14:58.040 --> 1:15:00.679 since left the movement. She has a lot regret about 1:15:00.680 --> 1:15:04.479 her involvement in that time period, and you know, there's 1:15:04.520 --> 1:15:06.240 little People have a lot of mixed feelings about what 1:15:06.240 --> 1:15:07.800 it means to leave the movement, what it means to 1:15:07.840 --> 1:15:10.200 a tone, Is it possible to redeem yourself for having 1:15:10.200 --> 1:15:12.240 been a part of something like that. We don't have 1:15:12.280 --> 1:15:16.200 to litigate that, but we do have to well, we 1:15:16.240 --> 1:15:19.560 do have to recognize that her testimony is damn me. 1:15:20.280 --> 1:15:22.160 I mean, this is not this is not Elliott Klein 1:15:22.280 --> 1:15:24.080 putting on a show in public. This is not Elliott 1:15:24.120 --> 1:15:27.040 Klein posturing for his friends. This is Eli at home 1:15:27.040 --> 1:15:29.680 in bed with his girlfriend talking about his fantasies of 1:15:29.760 --> 1:15:36.080 killing all the Jews. Um. And her testimony was pretty harmful. Um, 1:15:37.160 --> 1:15:41.400 you wouldn't think, yeah, it's not great. You know. Really 1:15:42.280 --> 1:15:44.320 you have to wonder how the jury is taking this right, 1:15:44.360 --> 1:15:48.839 these people who have no concept or context for this 1:15:48.960 --> 1:15:52.960 for years yea hours of this woman sort of near 1:15:53.080 --> 1:15:55.439 tears talking about how her boyfriend said that he was 1:15:55.479 --> 1:15:57.760 going to put her in a breeding camp once they 1:15:57.800 --> 1:16:05.360 had the ethno state. Um. Not nice, really not nice stuff. Um. 1:16:05.479 --> 1:16:07.080 And she also tested you know, we we have the 1:16:07.080 --> 1:16:09.400 messages from the discord where people are posting memes and 1:16:09.479 --> 1:16:13.320 jokes about hitting protesters, but Samantha testified that at private 1:16:13.360 --> 1:16:16.920 parties at Richard Spencer's house in the summer. Of these 1:16:16.920 --> 1:16:20.240 private parties with the organizers of the event at Richard 1:16:20.240 --> 1:16:27.080 Spencer's apartment, people explicitly discussed the legality of hitting people 1:16:27.120 --> 1:16:31.160 with their cars. This is not random people in the 1:16:31.200 --> 1:16:33.200 discord that Richards could say, Oh, I don't know him, 1:16:33.200 --> 1:16:35.360 I never met him, I never posted in discord. This 1:16:35.400 --> 1:16:41.840 is somebody sitting on your couch Richard. Um. Yeah, and 1:16:41.960 --> 1:16:44.679 you know, Samantha said that during that time period, um, 1:16:44.880 --> 1:16:48.759 Klein was building an army for Richard, and Kessler texted 1:16:48.800 --> 1:16:51.040 Spencer is something similar, right that, where we'll build an 1:16:51.160 --> 1:16:56.280 army my liege fucking dorcass ship. Um. But so when 1:16:56.360 --> 1:16:59.479 when One fun surprise from Samantha was that during that 1:16:59.520 --> 1:17:03.800 time period Klein was, you know, planning to provide his 1:17:04.080 --> 1:17:06.360 militia in the form of Identity Europa. Right, these these 1:17:06.400 --> 1:17:09.000 street troops he was going to provide to Spencer to 1:17:09.080 --> 1:17:11.599 build the movement, but that when the time came, he 1:17:11.680 --> 1:17:14.679 always knew that he would kill Richard to take control. 1:17:16.600 --> 1:17:21.880 These people are all such fucking It's a shame that 1:17:22.200 --> 1:17:27.920 what they actually are is deniable assets for the most 1:17:28.040 --> 1:17:31.240 dangerous folks, you know, the fucking the fucking Bannon types, 1:17:32.439 --> 1:17:35.120 because if if all of the fascists were this dumb, 1:17:35.280 --> 1:17:38.800 I wouldn't be so worried. And it's hard, it's hard 1:17:38.840 --> 1:17:42.200 to walk the line between, you know, really getting a 1:17:42.280 --> 1:17:45.840 kick out of some of these moments where it genuinely funny, right, 1:17:45.880 --> 1:17:48.280 but you remember, like, these people are very dangerous, these 1:17:48.320 --> 1:17:51.600 people are responsible for a death. These people it's this 1:17:51.640 --> 1:17:54.599 emotional whiplash right of the plaintiffs getting on and saying, yes, 1:17:54.680 --> 1:17:57.160 my life was ruined. I still have nightmares, I still 1:17:57.200 --> 1:18:00.439 have to go to physical therapy. And then well getting 1:18:00.479 --> 1:18:04.120 up there and asking Heimbach if he's a federal agent. Yeah, right, 1:18:04.320 --> 1:18:06.880 like I think so we've only seen one of the 1:18:06.880 --> 1:18:08.680 defendants on the stand so far, but I have a 1:18:08.680 --> 1:18:11.680 strong feeling can't Well, it's going to use every opportunity 1:18:11.720 --> 1:18:14.280 that he has his freenemies under oath to ask them 1:18:14.320 --> 1:18:17.400 if they snitched on him. Yeah, that's that's going to 1:18:17.439 --> 1:18:20.000 be pretty funny. It's gonna be great. You gotta laugh. 1:18:20.439 --> 1:18:24.040 Sometimes life's too hard. But I can't Will is really 1:18:24.160 --> 1:18:27.040 using this. I think you know, he has nothing to lose. Right, 1:18:27.080 --> 1:18:29.639 this is a case of damages. He has no money 1:18:29.680 --> 1:18:31.600 for them to take. He has thirty thou dollars in 1:18:31.640 --> 1:18:33.880 credit card debt and his car got repossessed once he 1:18:33.920 --> 1:18:36.639 went to prison. He has nothing for them to take. 1:18:36.840 --> 1:18:39.000 The only person he knows who did have anything is 1:18:39.040 --> 1:18:41.639 Ian Freeman, who's currently facing federal charges for some sort 1:18:41.640 --> 1:18:46.720 of complicated bitcoin money laundering scam through a fake church. Um. 1:18:46.800 --> 1:18:49.719 So he doesn't even have any friends to help him. 1:18:49.760 --> 1:18:51.559 That's an interesting case, but I don't have time for 1:18:51.600 --> 1:18:54.519 it now. But he has so he has nothing for 1:18:54.600 --> 1:18:56.720 them to take. He's already a felon. He can't have 1:18:56.720 --> 1:18:59.240 a gun anymore. I think he's just using this as 1:18:59.240 --> 1:19:02.280 an opportunity as a platform to get his message out 1:19:02.320 --> 1:19:04.840 there and to harm the people he thinks harmed him. 1:19:04.920 --> 1:19:07.920 So every chance he gets, he's trying to force witnesses 1:19:07.960 --> 1:19:11.120 to ducks people. Right. He asked one of the plaintiffs, 1:19:11.320 --> 1:19:13.280 Devin Willis, when another young man who was who was 1:19:13.320 --> 1:19:16.160 injured at the torch march um a plaintiff in this case. 1:19:16.479 --> 1:19:19.160 He asked him he forced him to name the names 1:19:19.520 --> 1:19:22.920 of the non parties who were also counter demonstrating at 1:19:22.920 --> 1:19:26.160 the statue. These people's names have not been on the record. 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:29.800 They you know, judge made him do that, made him 1:19:29.840 --> 1:19:35.000 do that. That's and you know, you could if you were, 1:19:35.320 --> 1:19:38.120 I don't know, a complete baby brained idiot, you could say, well, 1:19:38.320 --> 1:19:40.120 you know that maybe there was a legal reason that 1:19:40.160 --> 1:19:42.880 he needed those names. Whi's not and we know there's 1:19:42.880 --> 1:19:45.439 not because he tried to do it again today. Um. 1:19:45.479 --> 1:19:47.400 There was a non party witness, a young woman who 1:19:47.439 --> 1:19:50.280 lived um in one of the dorm rooms right by 1:19:50.280 --> 1:19:53.400 the rotunda. They're called the lawn rooms. The prestigious opportunity. 1:19:53.640 --> 1:19:55.879 Only super high achievers get to live in those beautiful 1:19:55.920 --> 1:19:58.439 historic lawing rooms. So she lived right near where the 1:19:58.479 --> 1:20:00.360 torch march was happening, and she heard and she went 1:20:00.360 --> 1:20:03.600 outside and she looked at it. Um. She's not a 1:20:03.600 --> 1:20:05.400 party to the suit. She has no knowledge of these 1:20:05.439 --> 1:20:07.920 people or what happened. She just saw this thing happen. 1:20:07.960 --> 1:20:10.640 And she testified to that UM, and he tried to 1:20:10.960 --> 1:20:14.519 you know, she had made some passing remark that she 1:20:14.600 --> 1:20:18.280 had heard from another student that maybe there would be 1:20:18.360 --> 1:20:20.519 a thing on campus right that they knew about the 1:20:20.560 --> 1:20:22.840 rally the next day. But like, I don't know, maybe 1:20:22.880 --> 1:20:25.200 these guys will try and come here, just like, be 1:20:25.280 --> 1:20:28.880 on your toes, right, not anything specific. She was not. 1:20:29.000 --> 1:20:31.760 She's not an activist, she's not. She didn't know anything right, 1:20:31.760 --> 1:20:34.120 and so he was grilled her, tell me who told 1:20:34.160 --> 1:20:35.639 you that? Tell me who told you that? How did 1:20:35.680 --> 1:20:38.960 you know that? And he said, on the record, direct quote, 1:20:39.600 --> 1:20:42.800 I want to know who infiltrated our communications. So he's 1:20:42.840 --> 1:20:45.000 trying to use this, this moment where he has someone 1:20:45.040 --> 1:20:50.840 under oath to extract information about who snitched. He wants 1:20:50.880 --> 1:20:54.640 to know who infiltrated their secret communications, which is him 1:20:54.640 --> 1:20:57.680 admitting their secret communications that weren't turned over in discovery, 1:20:58.120 --> 1:21:01.040 which wasn't smart of him to do. But he's using 1:21:01.040 --> 1:21:06.000 this process to get names of people who he can harass. 1:21:06.120 --> 1:21:08.160 And we know that's what they're doing because while he 1:21:08.240 --> 1:21:10.240 was getting these names from that other witness, you know 1:21:10.240 --> 1:21:13.280 the names of the people at the statue. Jason Kessler, 1:21:13.720 --> 1:21:16.479 the lead defendant, right that, the defendant whose name is 1:21:16.520 --> 1:21:19.400 on the lawsuit, the lead organizer of the rally, is 1:21:19.439 --> 1:21:22.880 posting all this time. He's posting through it, posting through it. 1:21:22.920 --> 1:21:24.439 If you had a good lawyer, he would tell you 1:21:24.479 --> 1:21:28.760 not to post through your own conspiracy trial. Um So 1:21:28.800 --> 1:21:31.519 wal Cantwell is extracting these names from this poor young man, 1:21:32.160 --> 1:21:34.920 Kessler's posting them. He's posting their pictures and their legal 1:21:35.000 --> 1:21:38.519 names and describing their involvement. These people who are not 1:21:38.640 --> 1:21:40.759 party to this lawsuit. And there's no way to interpret 1:21:40.800 --> 1:21:44.120 that other than as as a vehicle for harassment. Um. 1:21:44.840 --> 1:21:46.800 So there's I think there will be there will be 1:21:46.840 --> 1:21:49.240 collateral damage of this lawsuit, but I hope that it 1:21:49.280 --> 1:21:54.400 does um have the intended deterrent effect. Right, Um, sorry 1:21:54.560 --> 1:21:58.000 to be talking at length for a while, but just insummation, insummation, 1:21:58.040 --> 1:22:01.840 I think, um. Inside the courtroom, this is the case 1:22:01.840 --> 1:22:04.000 about damages. Right. The judge is very clear that like, 1:22:04.560 --> 1:22:07.280 stop talking about broader societal impact. You can't tell the 1:22:07.360 --> 1:22:09.439 jury about that. That's not relevant to this case. This, 1:22:09.640 --> 1:22:13.360 legally speaking, is a case about did this thing happen real? 1:22:13.400 --> 1:22:15.759 These people hurt by it? What is the dollar amount 1:22:15.760 --> 1:22:20.200 of their pain? Legally speaking, that's it. But outside the courtroom, 1:22:20.200 --> 1:22:22.680 this is about deterrence, right, This is about setting a 1:22:22.760 --> 1:22:25.680 precedent that if you do this, if you plan a 1:22:25.760 --> 1:22:28.599 rally knowing that the people who come to your rally 1:22:28.640 --> 1:22:30.920 will hurt people because you told them that's the goal. Right, 1:22:31.760 --> 1:22:33.960 Even if you're not the one who swings the stick, 1:22:34.040 --> 1:22:36.400 even if you're not the one pressing the accelerator, you 1:22:36.439 --> 1:22:39.439 are responsible and you can be held accountable. That as 1:22:39.479 --> 1:22:43.760 an important message. Yeah, we will, like your life will 1:22:43.800 --> 1:22:46.840 be ruined if you participate in this ship. That even 1:22:46.840 --> 1:22:48.320 if you don't have anything for us to take, we 1:22:48.360 --> 1:22:50.400 will put a garnishment on you that will follow you 1:22:50.479 --> 1:22:55.080 to the fucking grave. Yep. And I think, yeah, that's 1:22:55.200 --> 1:22:57.679 that's I would agree what I think is important here. 1:22:58.080 --> 1:23:01.160 Um Molly, I think that's that's everything. For now. We're 1:23:01.200 --> 1:23:02.760 still how much how much longer do we have to 1:23:02.760 --> 1:23:08.519 go through this the court, Well, it's scheduled for four weeks. 1:23:08.880 --> 1:23:13.920 It's been one and a half. And there was there 1:23:13.960 --> 1:23:16.880 was some some anxiety and handwringing about how maybe four 1:23:16.920 --> 1:23:22.559 weeks won't cut it. Yeah, Jesus, I'm regretting my decision 1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:27.759 to actively live tweets. So like I'm transcribing in real 1:23:27.800 --> 1:23:30.959 time for eight hours a day. It happens your fingers 1:23:31.240 --> 1:23:33.479 are using a laptop. Are you doing it on a phone. 1:23:33.840 --> 1:23:35.840 I'm doing it on a laptop, thank god. So because 1:23:35.840 --> 1:23:38.280 of covid um no one can go into the courthouse 1:23:38.320 --> 1:23:40.320 because there's so many parties in this case and there's 1:23:40.320 --> 1:23:42.799 the plague, and no one can go into the courthouse 1:23:42.840 --> 1:23:45.800 except for there's there's a press room where fifteen people 1:23:45.840 --> 1:23:48.080 who got pre approved by a federal court can go 1:23:48.120 --> 1:23:50.920 and sit and look at a monitor. Um, but I'm 1:23:50.960 --> 1:23:55.840 sitting at home. I'm comfy at home, So I'm thank god. Yeah, 1:23:56.040 --> 1:23:57.840 that would be and I was. I was disappointed. You know, 1:23:57.880 --> 1:23:59.679 I kind of wanted to see I love to see 1:23:59.680 --> 1:24:03.000 a love a courtroom ambiance. But I'll be honest. Word, 1:24:04.240 --> 1:24:06.320 I'm way less worried about getting stabbed here at home. 1:24:07.800 --> 1:24:11.360 That is true. That is true. People are less likely 1:24:11.400 --> 1:24:13.880 to get stabbed at home or more likely one of 1:24:13.960 --> 1:24:17.400 the two. Um, I don't know. Uh. Tell us in 1:24:17.439 --> 1:24:19.720 the comments where you think people are most likely to 1:24:19.760 --> 1:24:24.960 get stabbed. Uh and um Molly, thank you so much. 1:24:25.040 --> 1:24:27.280 Thank you both for what you're doing for coming on 1:24:27.320 --> 1:24:30.839 the show. Is there anywhere the listeners can find slash 1:24:31.080 --> 1:24:36.280 support you? Would you like people to mail you knives? What? 1:24:36.680 --> 1:24:39.080 Oh mail me knives? Yeah, but not as a threat, 1:24:39.200 --> 1:24:43.040 like as a fun thing, fun knives for fun. I 1:24:43.080 --> 1:24:46.360 did get a large machete in the mail the other day, 1:24:46.360 --> 1:24:49.360 and before I saw the little gift note, I was confused. 1:24:50.200 --> 1:24:52.640 Oh good, okay, I'm glad you're getting a gift machetes. 1:24:53.160 --> 1:24:56.439 Yeah yeah. My my friendship is a sheep farmer in 1:24:56.479 --> 1:25:01.519 North Carolina sent me a large blade. Good. Uh no. 1:25:01.640 --> 1:25:04.599 But so if you're interested in reading moment by moment 1:25:04.720 --> 1:25:10.759 live transcription of people screaming Holocaust denial at a federal judge, um, 1:25:10.800 --> 1:25:13.480 you can check me out on Twitter. That's at Socialist 1:25:13.560 --> 1:25:16.120 Dog mom. That's what happens when you make a little 1:25:16.200 --> 1:25:19.320 joke with your friends, when you have five followers and um, 1:25:20.000 --> 1:25:23.679 and then you end up using it professionally. The national 1:25:23.720 --> 1:25:27.200 news repeatedly, I don't. Then people are posting your mug 1:25:27.200 --> 1:25:30.320 shot making fun of you using your bullshit mug shot. 1:25:31.479 --> 1:25:35.400 You look great, but it's bullshit. Um, nobody looks good 1:25:35.400 --> 1:25:37.439 after they get left in a hot van like a dog. 1:25:38.080 --> 1:25:45.760 Yeah that's true. Well, Molly, that's gonna be the end 1:25:45.800 --> 1:25:48.640 of the episode. So why don't we Why don't we 1:25:49.360 --> 1:25:53.600 sing a song and and and roll out? Hopefully not 1:25:53.720 --> 1:25:57.000 the song that Heimbuch included in his Christmas letter to 1:25:57.080 --> 1:25:59.760 James Fields in prison. Oh god, that must have been 1:25:59.760 --> 1:26:04.519 really a special. Jeez, I'll have to look that up. 1:26:04.880 --> 1:26:08.160 I did come across in my um my browsing through 1:26:08.160 --> 1:26:11.960 Fascist Telegram the other week, an entire album, dozens of 1:26:12.040 --> 1:26:15.120 songs that we're all Nazi covers of Blink one eight 1:26:15.240 --> 1:26:21.080 two's entire discography, everything, everything, And they called it, of course, 1:26:21.080 --> 1:26:27.240 they called it Blink likely of course it was. I 1:26:27.280 --> 1:26:29.720 don't I don't even know, like, I don't even know 1:26:29.800 --> 1:26:33.040 like how to talk about that. It was just the 1:26:33.200 --> 1:26:36.240 thing that I found. Do you know hampt Install, the 1:26:36.280 --> 1:26:39.360 guy who studies malicious Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's got 1:26:39.360 --> 1:26:43.639 a particular fascination with white power wrap. Oh god. Yeah. 1:26:43.680 --> 1:26:46.320 It's never a good although there was a there was 1:26:46.320 --> 1:26:49.040 a fun in one of the h Bomber Guy videos. 1:26:49.080 --> 1:26:51.840 He found finds this flat earth Nazi who has a 1:26:51.920 --> 1:26:57.639 rap that's amazing. Alright, alright, partial, I'm partial to can't 1:26:57.640 --> 1:27:04.479 wells distracts. Yeah, Chris Campbell, Well, thank you, Molly and 1:27:04.720 --> 1:27:09.840 uh off we go into the wild blue yonder. I'm 1:27:09.840 --> 1:27:12.800 gonna go smoke some legal weed and fall asleep, face down, 1:27:13.200 --> 1:27:16.040 hopefully not thinking about this trial. I am not going 1:27:16.080 --> 1:27:20.559 to smoke some legal weed, because that's federally a crime. Molly. 1:27:20.920 --> 1:27:23.360 I have a good day, Molly. Thank you all for listening. 1:27:38.439 --> 1:27:41.679 Welcome back to It Could Happen here, the podcast that 1:27:41.880 --> 1:27:46.120 is occasionally introduced competently as it sort of was today 1:27:46.760 --> 1:27:50.040 because our guest today is someone who is very near 1:27:50.120 --> 1:27:54.400 and dear uh to me and to like almost every 1:27:54.400 --> 1:27:58.840 other person that I know and work with. Um, Moira 1:27:59.000 --> 1:28:04.679 Meltzer Cohen. You are a lawyer focusing on civil rights 1:28:04.680 --> 1:28:07.400 and movement kind of cases. Uh. And you are the 1:28:07.479 --> 1:28:16.120 lawyer of yeah, like every everybody I respect in the world. Yeah. Um, 1:28:16.160 --> 1:28:18.760 you're the person that I text whenever I need to know, Hey, 1:28:19.400 --> 1:28:23.479 was this a crime? Um? Or it never is and 1:28:23.520 --> 1:28:27.920 it never is. I'm law abiding, very law abiding. Um 1:28:28.240 --> 1:28:31.320 and uh. Yeah, we wanted to have you on both 1:28:31.400 --> 1:28:34.960 because you're always a breath of sunshine and because um, 1:28:35.000 --> 1:28:37.240 there's some like law stuff happening these days. We just 1:28:37.320 --> 1:28:40.240 had um our mutual friend Molly Conjure on to talk 1:28:40.280 --> 1:28:44.320 about the Charlottesville case, which is quite a thing. Today 1:28:44.439 --> 1:28:48.439 was the day. Yeah. Today today had some had some moments. 1:28:48.720 --> 1:28:53.639 Chris Cantwell and Richard Spencer representing themselves separately, each cross 1:28:53.680 --> 1:29:00.240 examining each other I'd have so many thoughts. Mostly my 1:29:00.400 --> 1:29:05.840 thoughts involved laughing. It's very very funny. It's it's it's 1:29:05.880 --> 1:29:10.400 the funniest of an incredibly tragic and infuriating situation. Something 1:29:10.439 --> 1:29:15.040 funny finally happened. Um, So at least there's that often 1:29:15.640 --> 1:29:20.719 very funny in spite of himself. Yeah, Um, I would 1:29:20.720 --> 1:29:22.479 love one day to just get you on and duo, 1:29:22.640 --> 1:29:24.680 we can do a reading of some of Chris Cantwell's 1:29:24.920 --> 1:29:29.719 better legal filings. Um. These guys quite the legal mind, Robert. 1:29:30.360 --> 1:29:34.320 I think I maybe didn't ever tell you about the 1:29:34.360 --> 1:29:38.840 fact that we um did a Poorams Feel, which is 1:29:38.880 --> 1:29:43.360 a performance of the story of Esther Um Oh my God, 1:29:43.680 --> 1:29:47.960 traditionally done at Poor Ram, which is a Jewish holiday Um. 1:29:48.000 --> 1:29:51.400 And it was based on the complaint that he filed. 1:29:51.720 --> 1:29:58.320 Oh my God, those of you what are the third 1:29:59.000 --> 1:30:03.280 was promin ly featured in the role of Hayman. For 1:30:03.320 --> 1:30:05.759 those of you who don't know, Chris Cantwell, the crying 1:30:05.840 --> 1:30:09.000 Nazi from the Unite the Right rally, has been incarcerated 1:30:09.040 --> 1:30:11.880 for a year or so now um and continues to 1:30:12.000 --> 1:30:16.160 put out his own legal motions, generally handwritten UM, alleging 1:30:16.360 --> 1:30:18.920 all kinds of conspiracies from the people who did not 1:30:19.360 --> 1:30:23.439 call the FBI and admit to committing several crimes. We should, 1:30:23.479 --> 1:30:26.400 we should absolutely absolutely do a crossover with Daniel Harper 1:30:26.960 --> 1:30:32.679 um and to discuss Wells legal genius. But but today 1:30:32.760 --> 1:30:34.720 more we wanted to have you on because there is 1:30:34.760 --> 1:30:38.920 another case that a lot of folks are rightly concerned about, 1:30:38.960 --> 1:30:42.360 because it has some pretty dire implications depending on how 1:30:42.400 --> 1:30:45.000 it goes in a number of ways, the trial of 1:30:45.120 --> 1:30:49.240 Kyle Rittenhouse. Um. For the I mean, everyone knows Kyle 1:30:49.280 --> 1:30:53.000 Rittenhouse took a gun illegally across state lines to a 1:30:53.000 --> 1:30:55.960 protest so he might have the chance to shoot people. Um, 1:30:56.080 --> 1:30:59.280 and then shot people. This is my opinion about what happened. Obviously, 1:30:59.520 --> 1:31:03.000 the legal case is unfolding. Um. There's been a lot 1:31:03.040 --> 1:31:06.760 of talk online on on Twitter and whatnot about how 1:31:06.800 --> 1:31:09.400 obviously unfair the judges being. This is what the talk 1:31:09.439 --> 1:31:12.519 on Twitter is about, and it's because of a couple 1:31:12.560 --> 1:31:15.280 of things. One is that the judge and and again 1:31:15.320 --> 1:31:17.719 I'm before I cut, I go to you, Moira. I'm 1:31:17.760 --> 1:31:19.680 just explaining kind of the way the discourse has been. 1:31:19.680 --> 1:31:22.280 The discourse has stated like, well, the judge said, you 1:31:22.320 --> 1:31:24.519 can't call Kyle. You can't call the people that he 1:31:24.600 --> 1:31:27.560 killed victims, but you can call the people that he 1:31:27.640 --> 1:31:30.880 killed looters and arsonists. UM. And so people are saying, 1:31:30.880 --> 1:31:33.679 look at this very clear example of how how bad 1:31:33.720 --> 1:31:36.760 the justice system is, UM, and I wanted to bring 1:31:36.800 --> 1:31:38.840 you on for a number of reasons, including the fact that, 1:31:38.880 --> 1:31:41.639 like there's a lot of stuff that seems fucked up 1:31:41.800 --> 1:31:44.240 and in fact is fucked up, you could argue, but 1:31:44.240 --> 1:31:47.640 it's also like like pretty normal justice system stuff and 1:31:47.680 --> 1:31:50.519 some stuff that seems fucked up but actually isn't. This 1:31:50.600 --> 1:31:53.080 is not I'm not necessarily talking about the Rittenhouse case here, 1:31:53.080 --> 1:31:55.040 just in general, and we talk about the law. So 1:31:55.120 --> 1:31:57.320 I guess I wanted to have you on to explain 1:31:57.360 --> 1:32:02.639 to us what's happening in your opinion and how normal, abnormal, good, 1:32:02.680 --> 1:32:04.760 bad are kind of the things that we're seeing, the 1:32:04.840 --> 1:32:08.120 decisions we're seeing this judge make UM in this case 1:32:08.200 --> 1:32:12.760 so far, Yeah, sure, absolutely so. The trial, UM. I 1:32:12.760 --> 1:32:16.719 think when you asked me to comment on this, UM, 1:32:16.760 --> 1:32:20.280 the trial had not started. The trial has now started. 1:32:20.400 --> 1:32:25.320 It has been characterized by the defense saying the N 1:32:25.400 --> 1:32:32.920 word be here this morning, I think was dismissed for 1:32:33.120 --> 1:32:38.000 making a cruel and nakedly racist joke. Uh. And apparently 1:32:38.040 --> 1:32:40.879 the judge had a fit of peak about the media's 1:32:40.920 --> 1:32:44.320 response to his evidentiary rulings, which are what you've asked 1:32:44.320 --> 1:32:49.479 me to come discuss, um, which is itself actually one 1:32:49.520 --> 1:32:53.040 of the more unusual things about this how this trial 1:32:53.160 --> 1:32:56.559 is going. UM. It's always a little bit hard for 1:32:56.600 --> 1:33:00.759 me to opine on a case that is not my case. UM. 1:33:00.800 --> 1:33:06.080 I feel tentative about it. UM. This would never be 1:33:06.240 --> 1:33:09.360 my case because I would not represent a white supremacist, 1:33:09.479 --> 1:33:12.680 and I am not a prosecutor and would never be 1:33:12.720 --> 1:33:17.320 a prosecutor. And I was not able to look at 1:33:17.360 --> 1:33:23.320 the briefing because although all of the briefing was ostensibly 1:33:23.479 --> 1:33:28.479 publicly filed, it is not actually publicly available. UM. I 1:33:28.520 --> 1:33:31.200 had a very interesting conversation with the Clerk of court 1:33:31.280 --> 1:33:35.120 and Kenosha, who told me that if I mailed her 1:33:35.160 --> 1:33:39.479 a request, she would fax me the briefing at a 1:33:39.560 --> 1:33:41.800 dollar twenty five a page. And I said, thank you 1:33:41.920 --> 1:33:45.960 very much, goodbye. UM. So I'll do my best to 1:33:46.000 --> 1:33:50.000 speak to these rulings, UM, and the sort of larger 1:33:50.040 --> 1:33:52.760 issues as I see them. UM. As you noted, there's 1:33:52.800 --> 1:33:55.280 been a lot of kind of salacious headlines about the 1:33:55.320 --> 1:33:58.879 evidential in this case, UM, And I think those headlines 1:33:58.880 --> 1:34:02.920 are really they're less about what's actually happening in the case, 1:34:02.960 --> 1:34:05.280 and they're more reflective of the sort of pearl clutching 1:34:06.160 --> 1:34:10.719 UM liberal impulse to to notice the totally self evident 1:34:10.840 --> 1:34:14.879 hypocrisy of the legal system uh, and then to conclude 1:34:14.880 --> 1:34:18.599 that because certain groups are shown more leniency, the way 1:34:18.600 --> 1:34:21.840 to resolve this hypocrisy is to make sure everyone is 1:34:22.080 --> 1:34:26.920 pleased and prosecuted and punished as viciously as the left is, 1:34:27.280 --> 1:34:33.040 which is not actually the goal that I have. UM. 1:34:33.080 --> 1:34:35.760 And just to clarify when I when I talk about 1:34:35.840 --> 1:34:40.080 liberals as I as I will probably do a little bit, UM, 1:34:40.120 --> 1:34:43.960 I don't mean like I mean liberal as opposed to 1:34:44.120 --> 1:34:47.240 radical UM. People who are more or less okay with 1:34:47.320 --> 1:34:52.520 the underlying big systems uh, like capitalism and like dipremacy 1:34:52.600 --> 1:34:57.120 and hetero patriarchy and like maybe are more concerned with 1:34:57.680 --> 1:35:00.679 the iterations of those things that are particular league ghosh, 1:35:00.840 --> 1:35:04.639 but they don't actually mind the systems themselves that or 1:35:05.000 --> 1:35:09.000 the way that those systems are reiterated and enforced by, 1:35:09.200 --> 1:35:14.960 for example, the American criminal legal system. UM. So you know, 1:35:15.000 --> 1:35:17.840 I think the kind of liberal read on these rulings 1:35:18.160 --> 1:35:22.760 is not only not legally sound, UM, I think it's 1:35:22.800 --> 1:35:28.280 actually incredibly dangerous. And it's watching this unfold and watching 1:35:28.320 --> 1:35:31.120 the liberal commentary on it, I think is one of 1:35:31.160 --> 1:35:33.080 the things. It's one of the ways that I can 1:35:33.120 --> 1:35:39.719 really see liberal liberals and liberalism losing credibility. Um, because 1:35:40.640 --> 1:35:43.880 because they're sort of calling out this hypocrisy, and at 1:35:43.920 --> 1:35:45.559 the same time there's a little bit of a double 1:35:45.600 --> 1:35:48.920 standard that they want to um, that they want to 1:35:49.000 --> 1:35:52.280 propose and enforce. UM. So okay, so I'll talk about 1:35:52.320 --> 1:35:55.000 the rulings that you discussed. Um. The first one is 1:35:55.040 --> 1:35:58.800 that the judge um, so that the prosecution is not 1:35:58.840 --> 1:36:03.240 allowed to refer to the people are writtenhouse killed as victims. UM. 1:36:03.280 --> 1:36:06.400 I will remind you, as I remind all of my 1:36:06.520 --> 1:36:11.960 clients continuously, UM, that the law is at best adjacent 1:36:12.520 --> 1:36:18.120 to common sense understandings of justice and even frankly common 1:36:18.160 --> 1:36:23.040 sense understandings of reality. UM. Obviously, the people that Kyle 1:36:23.120 --> 1:36:28.920 Rittenhow's killed were victims. UM. But as my beloved colleague 1:36:29.360 --> 1:36:35.919 Sandy reminded me, uh, the concept of victimhood, the status 1:36:35.960 --> 1:36:38.920 of victimhood is among the things that needs to be 1:36:39.000 --> 1:36:43.360 proven beyond a reasonable doubt at this trial, right, um. 1:36:43.439 --> 1:36:48.160 And so in in fact, this is a totally straightforward ruling. 1:36:49.160 --> 1:36:51.439 Is a ruling that I would argue for as a 1:36:51.520 --> 1:36:55.080 defense attorney and that I expect to win where I 1:36:55.200 --> 1:37:01.200 trying in murder case. So you know, it's one of 1:37:01.240 --> 1:37:05.479 those things like you have to overcome this, this you 1:37:05.520 --> 1:37:07.840 have to overcome when you're thinking about a trial, like 1:37:07.920 --> 1:37:10.599 the fact that you know he's guilty, because the point 1:37:10.600 --> 1:37:14.400 of a trial is that everyone like there's a process, right, 1:37:14.439 --> 1:37:17.839 we don't just do street justice because that's what written 1:37:17.840 --> 1:37:22.280 House did. Um, Like we're we're you have to like 1:37:22.960 --> 1:37:24.920 one of the It is troubling to me the extent 1:37:24.960 --> 1:37:27.920 that people are like, well, he he should be presumed 1:37:28.000 --> 1:37:30.400 like we should be referring to the people he shot 1:37:30.520 --> 1:37:33.559 as victims before he has been adjudicated as guilty, because 1:37:33.560 --> 1:37:37.479 like that's that's important, Like the presumption of innocence matters, 1:37:37.520 --> 1:37:40.760 and it's it's it's also something that's very unfair, Like 1:37:40.840 --> 1:37:45.640 there's a person in Portland, Alexander Dial, who got in 1:37:45.760 --> 1:37:48.120 trouble for taking a hammer out of a Nazis hand 1:37:48.200 --> 1:37:52.000 during a rally UM, and has been charged with several felonies, 1:37:52.000 --> 1:37:54.080 and because his trial kept getting delay, spent two and 1:37:54.120 --> 1:37:56.880 a half years under pre trial conditions. So the presumption 1:37:56.920 --> 1:38:02.560 of innocence is hardly equal, but it is important. Yeah, exactly, 1:38:02.600 --> 1:38:06.720 And I think that you know, we'll talk about this, 1:38:06.800 --> 1:38:09.719 I think in a little bit, but that's exactly the issue, right, 1:38:09.840 --> 1:38:15.320 is that, UM, we need to be enforcing the equal 1:38:15.360 --> 1:38:19.920 application of the presumption of innocence, not being you know, 1:38:20.080 --> 1:38:23.720 rapidly going after the right in the same way that 1:38:23.760 --> 1:38:28.040 we are used to uh, law enforcement and the judiciary 1:38:28.080 --> 1:38:31.880 going after the left. Um. The other ruling that the 1:38:31.960 --> 1:38:37.280 judge made, UM, which you mentioned, was that he said 1:38:37.320 --> 1:38:41.240 that the defense is authorized to characterize the people that 1:38:41.280 --> 1:38:44.519 written house killed as looters or rioters if there's evidence 1:38:44.520 --> 1:38:47.080 presented that they were in fact looting and or rioting. 1:38:47.920 --> 1:38:51.040 I would, if I were, you know, in this case, 1:38:51.080 --> 1:38:54.640 which of course i'm not, I would object to this 1:38:54.760 --> 1:38:58.519 on the grounds that it is prejudicial and bullshit, and 1:38:59.560 --> 1:39:02.880 it's fun up in bullshit. Yeah, yes, that said, I 1:39:02.920 --> 1:39:06.599 am not super surprised by that ruling. UM. I would 1:39:06.640 --> 1:39:10.360 say it's likely within the sound discretion of the judge 1:39:10.800 --> 1:39:13.559 and if you know, and if the prosecution disagrees, it's 1:39:13.560 --> 1:39:20.080 a matter for appeal. UM. You know, I think, UM, 1:39:20.120 --> 1:39:23.000 one of the things that judge said about this, actually 1:39:23.000 --> 1:39:27.479 that I think is really important and correct, UM, is 1:39:28.080 --> 1:39:31.479 that he has uh a tremendous amount of discretion in 1:39:31.560 --> 1:39:35.519 making evidentiary rulings. Rulings. UM. One of the rulings he 1:39:35.600 --> 1:39:40.920 made was that he's admitting the testimony of an expert witness, UM, 1:39:40.960 --> 1:39:43.679 which you know, I think a lot of people are 1:39:43.720 --> 1:39:48.240 also quite upset about. UM. But that said, again, this 1:39:48.320 --> 1:39:51.040 is not that unusual, and it's very difficult for him 1:39:51.080 --> 1:39:54.280 to deny that motion to have his evidence or his 1:39:54.360 --> 1:39:59.439 testimony admitted, because the prosecution routinely uses use of for 1:39:59.600 --> 1:40:04.679 sex words in similar trials. UM. So now we're they're 1:40:04.720 --> 1:40:09.120 just on the other side of the table. Yeah. So 1:40:09.400 --> 1:40:12.240 you know, first of all, I get that these rulings 1:40:12.280 --> 1:40:17.160 don't make us feel good, UM, but they aren't that strange. 1:40:17.760 --> 1:40:20.600 And as I said, the judge has tremendous discretion in 1:40:20.640 --> 1:40:24.479 these matters. UM. I was thinking about how to illustrate this, 1:40:24.520 --> 1:40:26.280 and it occurred to me that I think the last 1:40:26.280 --> 1:40:29.360 time I was on one of your podcasts, you asked 1:40:29.360 --> 1:40:34.120 me whether cocaine was illegal? Yeah, what are we landing 1:40:34.160 --> 1:40:36.479 on that? By the way, so I think the first 1:40:36.479 --> 1:40:39.280 time you asked me, I was a total kill joy 1:40:39.800 --> 1:40:43.680 and was like, of course, it's a legal proverb. Um. 1:40:43.720 --> 1:40:46.160 But if I had actually taken your question more seriously, 1:40:46.200 --> 1:40:51.760 I think a better answer probably would have been nobody knows, um. 1:40:51.760 --> 1:40:55.599 For precisely this reason, because the real question is not 1:40:55.720 --> 1:41:01.599 what the law says. The real question is how, or whether, 1:41:02.080 --> 1:41:05.040 or against whom, or to what degree and under what 1:41:05.160 --> 1:41:09.800 circumstances will that law be enforced? And right? These are 1:41:09.920 --> 1:41:13.040 always open questions and arguments, and judges have a ton 1:41:13.120 --> 1:41:17.280 of power. This case is no exception. So you know, again, 1:41:17.320 --> 1:41:19.960 not only are these rulings pretty standard, but there I 1:41:20.000 --> 1:41:23.400 think within the judge's discretions some of them I really dislike. 1:41:23.479 --> 1:41:27.960 Some of them make total sense to me. Um, And 1:41:28.040 --> 1:41:32.080 I think that what is happening is is not necessarily 1:41:32.960 --> 1:41:36.760 sound legal analysis. But liberals sort of trying to argue 1:41:36.800 --> 1:41:40.920 that Writtenhouse should be more harshly prosecuted by saying that 1:41:41.040 --> 1:41:44.400 these specific rulings are unfair or unusual. It's a little 1:41:44.439 --> 1:41:47.840 bit like the liberals crying out now because people are 1:41:47.840 --> 1:41:50.479 putting like, let's go brandon on printing it on rifle 1:41:50.520 --> 1:41:53.680 receivers and saying like, well, the Secret Service should investigate it. Well, 1:41:53.760 --> 1:41:56.120 if they do that, then some then like thirty if 1:41:56.120 --> 1:41:58.439 they do that, and like one company gets a fine, 1:41:58.840 --> 1:42:01.040 forty people are going to go prison for having red 1:42:01.080 --> 1:42:03.559 flags on their body armor. Like that's the way it 1:42:03.680 --> 1:42:07.000 works in this country. But the right thing, Yeah, any 1:42:07.080 --> 1:42:09.240 any anarchists for the three D printers can to immediately 1:42:09.280 --> 1:42:14.559 go to jail. Yeah that's not like that is correct. Yeah. So, 1:42:14.640 --> 1:42:16.639 I guess the thing that I want to point out 1:42:16.640 --> 1:42:19.360 here is that what is actually unusual about this case 1:42:19.479 --> 1:42:22.240 is not these rulings. It is that Written House is 1:42:22.400 --> 1:42:26.280 going to trial at all. And the reason Written House 1:42:26.400 --> 1:42:28.599 is going to trial is able to go to trial 1:42:28.920 --> 1:42:33.360 is largely because this prosecution is fundamentally calculated not to 1:42:33.520 --> 1:42:36.920 be repressive. Um So, I want to kind of zoom 1:42:36.960 --> 1:42:41.360 out and get away from the weeds of the evidentiary rulings. 1:42:42.120 --> 1:42:46.240 Um So, in its simplest expression, when we talk about 1:42:46.240 --> 1:42:52.679 the difference between state and federal jurisdiction, we're saying kind of, um, 1:42:53.080 --> 1:42:58.240 jurisdiction for dummies. Uh, Overly simplified is stuff that happens 1:42:58.280 --> 1:43:02.720 inside or only impact a given state is typically prosecuted 1:43:02.720 --> 1:43:06.280 by the state and if it impacts if your offense 1:43:06.400 --> 1:43:11.880 conduct or alleged offense conduct impacts more than one state, UM, 1:43:12.000 --> 1:43:16.160 then it is or can be prosecuted by the federal 1:43:16.160 --> 1:43:21.640 Department of Justice. So Kyle Rittenhouse crusts state lines with 1:43:21.760 --> 1:43:26.280 a pretty serious firearm and he shot three people. This 1:43:27.080 --> 1:43:32.320 puts us immediately into federal jurisdiction land. Um. He did 1:43:32.360 --> 1:43:35.080 this in the context of an uprising for racial justice 1:43:35.200 --> 1:43:38.040 that has been characterized by the fact that those rising 1:43:38.160 --> 1:43:41.320 up on the side of racial justice have been subject 1:43:41.360 --> 1:43:45.040 to intense repression by the federal government. D o J 1:43:45.240 --> 1:43:49.760 has shown themselves to be fire breathingly enthusiastic of omicizing 1:43:49.800 --> 1:43:55.000 their jurisdiction over heaty offenses based on totally tenuous grounds 1:43:55.640 --> 1:44:00.479 um for people on the left or who are received 1:44:00.560 --> 1:44:03.519 to be on the left. UM. D o J has 1:44:03.560 --> 1:44:08.360 asserted jurisdiction in order to prosecute people for um absolutely 1:44:08.400 --> 1:44:12.720 trivial but politically motivated offenses that would be left to 1:44:13.040 --> 1:44:18.240 the state to prosecute absent the politics of the accused. UM. 1:44:18.360 --> 1:44:22.800 They have a certain federal jurisdiction on really flimsy bases 1:44:22.840 --> 1:44:27.920 like that a local police building or vehicle um belongs 1:44:27.960 --> 1:44:30.839 to an apartment that has received federal funding, so property 1:44:30.920 --> 1:44:34.720 damage against it becomes a federal offense. One thing they're 1:44:34.720 --> 1:44:37.360 doing that is unusual is the federal government is a 1:44:37.479 --> 1:44:41.679 certain concurrent jurisdiction to prosecute offenses. So I know there's 1:44:41.720 --> 1:44:47.680 someone in Courtland who is simultaneously being prosecuted by multnoma 1:44:47.840 --> 1:44:53.360 and also the federal government UM for allegedly throwing some 1:44:53.439 --> 1:44:58.720 accelerant on a police building. UM. Right, So it is 1:44:58.880 --> 1:45:03.719 very curious that written House, who quite clearly did something 1:45:03.760 --> 1:45:08.360 that would you know, fall under federal jurisdiction, is not 1:45:08.479 --> 1:45:12.000 being federally charged. And it matters a lot for how 1:45:12.040 --> 1:45:17.440 the case proceeds, UM, because the way that federal prosecutions 1:45:17.520 --> 1:45:24.400 operate is that the Feds will typically stack these indictments 1:45:24.720 --> 1:45:28.680 UM in a way that really puts tremendous pressure on 1:45:28.760 --> 1:45:32.439 them to plead guilty UM, which is not typically the 1:45:32.479 --> 1:45:35.200 case or it doesn't happen in the same way in 1:45:35.200 --> 1:45:40.240 a state prosecution. So UM, you have these stacked indictments 1:45:40.240 --> 1:45:45.519 with multiple multiple counts ranging you know, all all kinds 1:45:45.560 --> 1:45:49.960 of conduct um, often involving you know, a conspiracy, which 1:45:49.960 --> 1:45:53.080 can be very very easy to prove UM and a 1:45:53.120 --> 1:45:56.080 guilty finding on any of those counts could be like 1:45:56.120 --> 1:45:59.280 a mandatory minimum of five to ten years. And then 1:45:59.320 --> 1:46:02.400 if you're looking at, um, you know, a guilty on 1:46:02.920 --> 1:46:06.000 more than one or all of those counts, you're looking 1:46:06.040 --> 1:46:10.800 at a sentence potentially concurrent sentences that our tantamount to 1:46:10.920 --> 1:46:16.400 dying in prison. Right. And so this creates tremendous pressure 1:46:16.439 --> 1:46:20.880 on federal defendants to negotiate a pre trial disposition to 1:46:20.880 --> 1:46:25.120 take a guilty plea UM. So again, Kyle Rittenhouse crosses 1:46:25.200 --> 1:46:28.840 same lines with this firearm which gets used in the 1:46:28.960 --> 1:46:32.120 in the commission of an act of violence. And I 1:46:32.160 --> 1:46:36.080 feel extremely confident that any federal prosecutor could come up 1:46:36.120 --> 1:46:39.880 with a stack of counts against him within about ten 1:46:39.960 --> 1:46:47.040 minutes without breaking a sweat um. But you know, so 1:46:47.320 --> 1:46:49.519 you know, if you think about him being in that position, 1:46:51.000 --> 1:46:53.880 you think through, Okay, if I go to trial, what 1:46:54.120 --> 1:46:59.200 is what are likely outcomes if Kyle Rittenhouse went to 1:46:59.320 --> 1:47:04.520 trial federally, and even if he prevailed on a self 1:47:04.600 --> 1:47:09.080 defense right, which which could happen if you were found 1:47:09.080 --> 1:47:13.080 guilty on one or more of the lesser charges, he 1:47:13.160 --> 1:47:17.479 would still be looking at really really serious time. Right, 1:47:17.800 --> 1:47:21.920 But that's not where we are, right, Um, we are 1:47:21.960 --> 1:47:25.440 in a really weird place where like, in a federal context, 1:47:26.160 --> 1:47:31.599 we wouldn't even be like talking about evidentiary rulings because uh, 1:47:31.680 --> 1:47:35.719 he would almost certainly not be going to trial, right 1:47:38.760 --> 1:47:41.559 or you know, if he had a reasonable lawyer, he 1:47:41.600 --> 1:47:44.960 would probably be negotiating a plea. I'm curious what do 1:47:45.000 --> 1:47:47.080 you think about because one argument I've heard, and I'm 1:47:47.080 --> 1:47:49.920 certainly in no position to evaluate this personally, is that 1:47:50.439 --> 1:47:53.439 if federal charges had been placed on him, you know, 1:47:53.800 --> 1:47:58.360 when the crime in Trump would have pardoned him. Um, 1:47:58.840 --> 1:48:01.160 I don't know, yeah, Like I've heard people argue that 1:48:01.160 --> 1:48:02.880 that like, well, at least with the state charges, he 1:48:02.920 --> 1:48:05.600 can't be pardoned by President Trump. Like, I'm in no 1:48:05.680 --> 1:48:08.120 position to really evaluate that, but I'm curious what you 1:48:08.120 --> 1:48:13.400 think about that. Hey, honestly can't even yeah, speculate about 1:48:13.840 --> 1:48:17.160 what might have happened. That is very interesting. I do 1:48:17.240 --> 1:48:19.760 think that if if d O J wanted to charge 1:48:19.800 --> 1:48:24.960 him at this point, I mean not, but like there 1:48:25.840 --> 1:48:30.400 I think wasn't opening for that to happen after Trump 1:48:30.479 --> 1:48:33.920 left I seat. There is a very interesting foy A 1:48:34.040 --> 1:48:37.000 request to be made to d O j UH to 1:48:37.320 --> 1:48:40.960 see what kind of memo was circulated about whether or 1:48:41.000 --> 1:48:44.000 not they were going to pick this one up. They 1:48:44.000 --> 1:48:49.080 clearly declined to prosecute Um. I the only thing that 1:48:49.160 --> 1:48:50.960 I could come up with, to be honest, And I 1:48:51.479 --> 1:48:54.680 looked and did not really see any meaningful discussion of this, 1:48:55.080 --> 1:49:01.000 of their decision not to prosecute um. The only thing 1:49:01.200 --> 1:49:03.479 that occurred to me is that they might have been 1:49:03.520 --> 1:49:08.240 reluctant to a search jurisdiction over a minor. But they 1:49:08.280 --> 1:49:11.040 can prosecute anyone over the age of fifteen as an 1:49:11.080 --> 1:49:13.760 adult if they engage in violent crimes or if they 1:49:13.760 --> 1:49:16.200 are alleged to have engaged in violent crimes. So that's 1:49:16.240 --> 1:49:22.599 not it wouldn't entirely undermine their ability to do so. UM. 1:49:22.640 --> 1:49:26.960 So you know, for whatever, you know, for whatever reason 1:49:27.160 --> 1:49:30.679 they didn't, I think it is worth noting. I think 1:49:30.680 --> 1:49:34.400 it is, as I said, very curious, UM. And it's 1:49:34.439 --> 1:49:37.680 particularly curious in light of the intense federal repression that 1:49:37.720 --> 1:49:42.320 has been faced by people perceived to be on the left. Um. 1:49:43.600 --> 1:49:45.920 You know. So, like again, I want to be very clear, 1:49:46.080 --> 1:49:48.840 I don't. I'm not suggesting that I want him to 1:49:48.880 --> 1:49:53.519 be federally prosecuted. UM, I don't particularly I'm not interested 1:49:53.560 --> 1:49:58.080 in arguing for more prosecutions or for making the state 1:49:58.160 --> 1:50:02.760 the arbiter of political rights business, or giving the state 1:50:02.800 --> 1:50:08.720 more enforcement power or more resources. Um. You know, but 1:50:09.800 --> 1:50:13.680 you know, and look at no shade to Kenosha, Wisconsin. 1:50:13.800 --> 1:50:18.120 All right, But UM. One of the things that the 1:50:18.240 --> 1:50:23.200 UH federal prosecutors are really have a lot of experience 1:50:23.360 --> 1:50:32.439 doing is digital forensic investigations, and UH, in this case, 1:50:32.640 --> 1:50:35.960 one of the sort of critical questions is did he 1:50:36.040 --> 1:50:40.320 have specific intent to go across state lines and engage 1:50:40.320 --> 1:50:44.320 in violence? And I suspect that if you were to 1:50:44.840 --> 1:50:49.559 access all of his texts and metadata and social media posts, 1:50:50.800 --> 1:50:55.360 that you could probably find evidence of that specific intent. 1:50:55.880 --> 1:50:58.439 And I think that the federal government is probably better 1:50:58.479 --> 1:51:03.840 positioned to do that than the prosecutors UH in Kenosha. 1:51:05.360 --> 1:51:09.639 And they decided not to, right, so, you know, and 1:51:10.600 --> 1:51:14.679 that is exactly the kind of investigation that they mounted 1:51:14.720 --> 1:51:18.040 against Daniel Baker, who just he's a the yoga teacher 1:51:18.080 --> 1:51:20.880 in Tallahassee who just got three and a half years 1:51:20.880 --> 1:51:27.920 for posting vague, sort of incoherent, mutually contradictory kind am 1:51:27.960 --> 1:51:32.479 not at all frightening. Yeah, it's not that I wouldn't 1:51:32.479 --> 1:51:36.599 be a characterized as threats, but I hesitate to that. 1:51:37.120 --> 1:51:40.080 You know, he posted some stuff on social media and 1:51:40.080 --> 1:51:43.800 and now he's going to do fer. Yeah, my attitude 1:51:43.840 --> 1:51:47.240 on the nature of what he posts that like if 1:51:47.400 --> 1:51:50.160 prior to his prosecution, you had brought that post. But 1:51:50.160 --> 1:51:52.160 to me, I said, well, probably not a great idea 1:51:52.200 --> 1:51:55.679 to post. But also literally every week a right winger 1:51:55.760 --> 1:51:59.640 in the Portland area posts something significantly more actual. Right now, 1:51:59.680 --> 1:52:03.360 Chandler Papa's currently being charged with assaulting six police officers 1:52:03.360 --> 1:52:06.479 in the state capital and Salem just announced that he's 1:52:06.479 --> 1:52:11.080 doing armed training as a convicted felon outside of Portland, 1:52:11.400 --> 1:52:15.200 uh later this November. Um, which if he's if he 1:52:15.439 --> 1:52:18.040 touches a firearm, he should go away, Like based on 1:52:18.080 --> 1:52:19.920 the letter of the law, he should go to prison 1:52:19.920 --> 1:52:21.960 for years. Like that's the way the law is written. 1:52:22.360 --> 1:52:24.040 Nothing's going to happen to him. He's going to get 1:52:24.040 --> 1:52:26.280 to train people with guns and continue to carry guns. 1:52:26.320 --> 1:52:31.560 And it's it's fine for him. Um anyway, whatever, I'm sorry, 1:52:31.800 --> 1:52:35.600 it's Okay, I guess your your listeners can't see that. 1:52:35.640 --> 1:52:41.640 I have my head. Yeah, yeah, I mean, look what 1:52:41.720 --> 1:52:45.960 Daniel Baker did us certainly ill advised. If yeah, ill advised, 1:52:46.280 --> 1:52:49.360 it would characterize it. I have clients who have been 1:52:49.439 --> 1:52:51.680 visited by the Secret Service or have been visited by 1:52:51.720 --> 1:52:54.840 the FBI for saying stuff that when they call me 1:52:54.880 --> 1:52:57.400 and they're like, well, I just said this, and I'm like, yeah, 1:52:57.479 --> 1:52:59.880 I know that you're not gonna actually do that, but 1:53:00.080 --> 1:53:05.600 maybe don't you know, it's it's not it's I advised, 1:53:05.680 --> 1:53:09.400 but it's protected by the very First Amendment more or less. 1:53:09.520 --> 1:53:13.760 And you know, I've said this before. I don't think 1:53:13.800 --> 1:53:22.000 the solution to too um being surveilled on social media 1:53:22.200 --> 1:53:24.840 is self censorship. I think it is courage. But I 1:53:24.880 --> 1:53:28.040 also think that discretion is the better part of valor. 1:53:28.200 --> 1:53:33.960 So yes, pick your battles and maybe, yeah, understand that 1:53:34.080 --> 1:53:37.800 it's not fair, you know. Yeah, And also like, what 1:53:37.880 --> 1:53:41.080 do you gain by you know, being bump stous on 1:53:41.120 --> 1:53:44.320 the internet. It's one of those things where, yeah, if 1:53:44.320 --> 1:53:48.040 that guy had had a high dollar lawyer, um, if 1:53:48.040 --> 1:53:50.519 he if he'd been a rich person, yeah, maybe he 1:53:50.520 --> 1:53:54.120 would have gotten away with it. Um, who knows, but 1:53:54.200 --> 1:53:56.680 like he it's it's he certainly would have gotten No. 1:53:56.760 --> 1:53:58.320 I can certainly say he would have gotten away with 1:53:58.360 --> 1:54:00.560 it if he'd been a right winger because of you 1:54:00.640 --> 1:54:05.519 every single day. UM. I can't make any speculation about 1:54:05.520 --> 1:54:08.599 that particular shase, but I can say that the people 1:54:08.640 --> 1:54:12.160 who are being surveilled intensely and targeted for that kind 1:54:12.200 --> 1:54:15.280 of repression are not the people on the right. Um. 1:54:15.400 --> 1:54:17.720 The people on the right are able to make those 1:54:17.800 --> 1:54:21.400 kinds of statements and not be particularly taken seriously even 1:54:21.400 --> 1:54:24.400 when they should be. And people on the left are 1:54:24.439 --> 1:54:29.360 presumed to be you know, Antifa super soldiers. UM. So 1:54:29.640 --> 1:54:34.640 you know, I think the decision not to assert federal 1:54:34.760 --> 1:54:40.440 jurisdiction in the written House case is interesting. It is noteworthy, 1:54:41.080 --> 1:54:44.320 really curious about what was going on there, um and 1:54:44.360 --> 1:54:50.720 it has had a sort of cascade of effects, including UM. 1:54:50.760 --> 1:54:55.200 I doubt that the forensic digital investigation was as good 1:54:55.240 --> 1:54:57.520 as it would have been had it been federal Uh. 1:54:57.560 --> 1:55:01.000 And I doubt that the what I mean, he's facing 1:55:01.040 --> 1:55:04.120 multiple charges, but I don't think that he would have 1:55:04.200 --> 1:55:06.920 been as likely to go to trial had he been 1:55:06.960 --> 1:55:11.320 federally charged. UM. So again I don't you know, this 1:55:11.400 --> 1:55:16.120 is not an argument for more federal prosecution. But like, 1:55:16.200 --> 1:55:19.960 I think the breathless outrage that we're seeing in you know, 1:55:20.040 --> 1:55:25.680 these headlines, um, where people are correctly identifying the hypocrisy 1:55:25.760 --> 1:55:29.080 of the criminal legal system. UM. I think it's sort 1:55:29.120 --> 1:55:35.360 of an exercise in point missing. Um. You know, this prosecution, UM, 1:55:35.400 --> 1:55:38.640 like many of the prosecutions that we see, or the 1:55:38.720 --> 1:55:43.240 prosecutions that don't happen at all, UM, that involve members 1:55:43.320 --> 1:55:49.080 of the dominant class or people who uphold the values 1:55:49.160 --> 1:55:53.560 of the dominant classes. UM, is sort of proof of 1:55:53.680 --> 1:55:58.040 concept that it's possible to effectively allocate the burden of 1:55:58.120 --> 1:56:02.680 proof to the prosecution. It's possible not to go super 1:56:02.760 --> 1:56:09.600 hard on people and punish them for exercising their trial, right, UM. Right, 1:56:09.760 --> 1:56:17.240 I mean it's it's possible two treat all people accused 1:56:17.280 --> 1:56:22.040 of offenses in this way. UM. And I would much rather. 1:56:22.360 --> 1:56:26.280 I mean, obviously, my ultimate goal is to uh dismantle 1:56:26.320 --> 1:56:30.480 the entire system, you know. But but in the meantime, 1:56:31.800 --> 1:56:34.200 I don't think what we need is more vicious prosecution 1:56:34.240 --> 1:56:37.840 of the right. I think we need consistent and commensurate 1:56:37.920 --> 1:56:45.160 prosecution or lack of prosecution. We need to you know, Uh, 1:56:45.240 --> 1:56:48.040 I think that seeing the way that the right is 1:56:48.080 --> 1:56:53.200 treated should be evidence for an argument for the possibility 1:56:53.480 --> 1:56:59.640 of um treating all people with more leniency rather than 1:57:00.080 --> 1:57:03.560 you know, intense the intense federal repression that we are 1:57:04.120 --> 1:57:10.520 facing and have been facing, you know since the Palmer rates. Um. 1:57:10.560 --> 1:57:17.400 So yeah, yeah, Um well, Moira, that uh is the 1:57:17.440 --> 1:57:22.280 stuff I wanted to ask about. Is there uh anything else? Um? 1:57:23.320 --> 1:57:27.800 I mean sure, I definitely go off on liberals Swart please, 1:57:29.000 --> 1:57:33.440 um please. I mean Garrison is a huge fan of liberals. 1:57:33.480 --> 1:57:36.440 He's got actually a full back tack two of Barack 1:57:36.520 --> 1:57:40.560 Obama and Bill Clinton, but they're they're in the volleyball 1:57:40.600 --> 1:57:43.680 scene from Top Gun. Um, it's an incredible tattoo. He 1:57:43.720 --> 1:57:47.680 did it all freehand on his own back. Amazing. Um, 1:57:47.760 --> 1:57:49.839 this is like the Garrison. I hope I don't receive 1:57:49.880 --> 1:57:54.760 any I hope I don't receive any awful fan right now? Someone, 1:57:54.960 --> 1:57:58.200 someone do it? Come on, come on, photoshop Garrison's head 1:57:58.320 --> 1:58:02.720 onto onto your stones back and the photoshop Nixon's head 1:58:02.720 --> 1:58:05.160 out and the volumeball scene from Top Gun with Bill 1:58:05.160 --> 1:58:08.680 Clinton and Barack Obama. Do it. Do it. Someone's gonna 1:58:08.720 --> 1:58:12.440 do it. Is definitely going to do it. This is 1:58:12.480 --> 1:58:14.360 you consume me for this, and you'd be right to 1:58:14.400 --> 1:58:18.240 do so. Um. But let's get back to and I 1:58:18.320 --> 1:58:24.720 might represent you the trial of the trial of the century. Yeah, 1:58:24.800 --> 1:58:28.760 that sounds great. I think this is a trend that 1:58:29.000 --> 1:58:32.280 we see with people who are not necessarily focused on 1:58:33.840 --> 1:58:37.680 looking at the ways that the law is always going 1:58:37.760 --> 1:58:43.000 to be used first and worst against the already most vulnerable. Right. 1:58:43.040 --> 1:58:46.600 So we've seen things like, UM, I think there's just 1:58:46.640 --> 1:58:50.920 this very well documented liberal impulse, and I think it's 1:58:51.000 --> 1:58:55.280 very well intentioned, but it's very dangerous UM to do 1:58:55.440 --> 1:58:59.800 things to assume that the system somehow works um or 1:59:00.040 --> 1:59:02.200 should work, and that it just needs to be like 1:59:02.960 --> 1:59:06.840 followed more closely, and that if we push for things 1:59:07.120 --> 1:59:11.760 like um, if we like use the law to constrain 1:59:12.120 --> 1:59:16.200 things that I would agree are the most harmful um, 1:59:16.360 --> 1:59:21.520 excesses of bigotry, right, UM, that the law would be 1:59:22.160 --> 1:59:29.800 a good tool for UM for addressing violence and bigotry. 1:59:30.720 --> 1:59:33.560 The law does not, But that is not what kind 1:59:33.560 --> 1:59:37.240 of tool the law is. UM. When we push for 1:59:37.320 --> 1:59:41.760 things like laws regulating political speech, including so called hate speech, 1:59:42.240 --> 1:59:48.080 laws regulating what are referred to as hate crimes laws, um, 1:59:48.280 --> 1:59:51.680 regulating who can carry a fighter arm and what they 1:59:51.760 --> 1:59:56.680 might look like. Um. You know, pushes for limiting the 1:59:57.400 --> 2:00:01.160 places or circumstances under which you could pro test UM 2:00:01.480 --> 2:00:07.080 or demonstrate, right, um, which you know, which was done. Um. 2:00:07.520 --> 2:00:12.919 There there was a real big um push to uh 2:00:13.120 --> 2:00:19.880 forbid uh anti choice activists from protesting outside of UM clinics, right, 2:00:19.920 --> 2:00:23.200 which I understand, right, But what actually is the upshot 2:00:23.320 --> 2:00:26.120 of doing that? When we see this kind of push 2:00:26.240 --> 2:00:28.760 to use the law as a tool to enforce a 2:00:28.760 --> 2:00:34.040 particular political agenda, it is not you know, it's it's 2:00:34.080 --> 2:00:38.839 just a very ill conceived way to approach this because 2:00:38.840 --> 2:00:43.120 the law is never going to protect the most vulnerable. Um. Well, 2:00:43.240 --> 2:00:46.720 these structures of power that up remain in place, and 2:00:46.840 --> 2:00:49.800 so you know, it's just always going to be leveraged 2:00:49.840 --> 2:00:52.520 against the people who have the least amount of power, 2:00:52.840 --> 2:00:55.800 and and so you know, this this sort of response 2:00:55.840 --> 2:00:58.440 to the written house stuff, to me is just essentially 2:00:59.440 --> 2:01:03.360 a recoup daration of that impulse. Yeah, I mean, it's 2:01:03.400 --> 2:01:05.400 it's a little like that old I think the joke 2:01:05.480 --> 2:01:07.760 has attributed to Gandhi. I don't know if Gandhi actually 2:01:07.800 --> 2:01:09.480 said it, but like he was asked what do you 2:01:09.520 --> 2:01:11.560 think of Christian civilization, and he said, I think it 2:01:11.560 --> 2:01:13.560 would be a wonderful idea. What do you think of 2:01:13.600 --> 2:01:19.000 the fair and equal rule of law? Sounds nice? Um, 2:01:19.080 --> 2:01:24.840 but yeah, one of the two. Um yeah, maybe both, 2:01:24.960 --> 2:01:29.800 maybe both. I don't know that we ever saw them together. Um, right, 2:01:30.600 --> 2:01:35.200 So I don't know. I I it's it's obviously it's 2:01:35.240 --> 2:01:37.320 too early to It's one of those things where all 2:01:37.320 --> 2:01:39.280 of the complaining about the unfairness of the trial of 2:01:39.360 --> 2:01:45.320 Written House winds up getting um rammed into a legal wall. Metaphorically, 2:01:45.640 --> 2:01:49.640 Uh may seem silly in content or in in retrospect, 2:01:49.800 --> 2:01:53.280 or he may this may be the thing that ignites 2:01:53.320 --> 2:01:55.960 a new wave of vigilante showing up at protests with guns, 2:01:56.000 --> 2:01:59.160 but it seems to be untouchable. Like really, the big 2:01:59.200 --> 2:02:01.720 fears that they don't know a president that will allow 2:02:01.720 --> 2:02:04.800 other people to use quote unquote self defense claims an 2:02:04.840 --> 2:02:07.920 effort just to kill black activists, to kill activists on 2:02:07.960 --> 2:02:10.600 the left, to kill people wearing you know, black hoodies 2:02:10.600 --> 2:02:13.880 and bandanas, because that's the that's the big fear out 2:02:13.920 --> 2:02:17.280 of this situation. Because my my expectation is that if 2:02:17.280 --> 2:02:20.520 Written House gets off or even just gets very minor, 2:02:20.640 --> 2:02:23.680 like if it's if he's if he's out of jail quickly, 2:02:23.840 --> 2:02:27.720 within about six months, he's going to be a millionaire. Um. Absolutely, Yeah, 2:02:27.720 --> 2:02:30.000 that's the way the right wing works. I would gently 2:02:30.440 --> 2:02:32.960 ask you to think about what happens if he doesn't, 2:02:33.320 --> 2:02:38.440 because if he's convicted, we are going to see a 2:02:38.640 --> 2:02:43.200 deepening of the repression that is faced by everyone on 2:02:43.280 --> 2:02:49.000 the left as well. We lose either way. Yeah, is 2:02:49.040 --> 2:02:53.040 on the table. There's no winning, I guess, I think, 2:02:54.120 --> 2:02:56.040 I mean part of it, I guess depends on what 2:02:56.080 --> 2:03:01.520 he's convicted for. Um, because some of the stuff has 2:03:01.800 --> 2:03:04.160 I would it seems to me, some of the things 2:03:04.160 --> 2:03:08.000 he's charged with, if convicted, there's more potential negative implications 2:03:08.120 --> 2:03:12.680 across the political aisle than than with others. Um Like 2:03:12.800 --> 2:03:16.720 if if it's ruled murder. I don't know, that feels 2:03:16.760 --> 2:03:19.560 less worries. I mean, I have some concerns about the 2:03:19.600 --> 2:03:22.080 crossing state line stuff. I don't know. I mean, none 2:03:22.120 --> 2:03:24.800 of it's none of it's good. I guess where I 2:03:24.840 --> 2:03:30.840 am is. I remember vividly how much the situation on 2:03:30.880 --> 2:03:34.680 the ground changed after Kenosha, just in in Portland, even 2:03:34.720 --> 2:03:36.600 I mean, Garrison can can back we up with it. 2:03:36.680 --> 2:03:39.280 They were there for that too, Like it was a 2:03:39.520 --> 2:03:43.200 It was a significant shift in the feeling of deadliness, 2:03:43.360 --> 2:03:47.400 you know, whenever there was a right wing left wing confrontation. Um, 2:03:47.840 --> 2:03:50.400 someone died a few days later, someone died a few 2:03:50.440 --> 2:03:56.280 days later and in a fucking gunfight. Um, And I 2:03:56.280 --> 2:03:59.840 I don't know. I don't know, Moira, Uh, I don't know. 2:04:00.040 --> 2:04:03.040 I don't. I don't want Written House to get off 2:04:03.080 --> 2:04:06.600 scott free for shooting three people. You're absolutely right, there's 2:04:06.640 --> 2:04:10.600 no there's no winning with the legal system. The only 2:04:10.600 --> 2:04:12.720 way to win is not to play. The only way 2:04:12.720 --> 2:04:15.720 to win is not to play. So form your own 2:04:15.840 --> 2:04:22.400 breakaway civilization and as Gandhi and Gandhi yeah uh and 2:04:22.760 --> 2:04:28.080 n Hubbard take to the sea, yes, yeah, always Look. 2:04:28.120 --> 2:04:32.040 I don't I don't think. Um, I'm not looking for 2:04:32.120 --> 2:04:35.920 him to prevail on the self defense. Not like none 2:04:35.920 --> 2:04:38.600 of this is going to make me feel good. But 2:04:38.680 --> 2:04:44.720 I think that whether or not he is punished, whether 2:04:44.880 --> 2:04:50.440 or not he is convicted, there will be negative radio cussions, 2:04:51.040 --> 2:04:54.640 and all of those negative consequences will redound to the 2:04:54.720 --> 2:04:58.920 detriment of the people who are already facing the most 2:04:58.960 --> 2:05:04.120 intense federal oppression. Yeah, that is, I mean, and in fairness, like, 2:05:04.360 --> 2:05:07.000 this is the case of a child who killed two 2:05:07.040 --> 2:05:10.360 people and is now we are determining whether or not 2:05:10.440 --> 2:05:12.880 this child will spend the rest of their life in 2:05:12.920 --> 2:05:16.680 a cell. None of this should make anyone feel good, 2:05:16.720 --> 2:05:22.440 no matter what happens. It's a thoroughly bleak story. Yeah. Yeah, 2:05:22.480 --> 2:05:25.440 it's because this kid is never going to have a 2:05:25.520 --> 2:05:27.720 chance to grow up and be like, oh, I was 2:05:27.960 --> 2:05:32.720 being like a horrible No, they'll never be able to 2:05:32.720 --> 2:05:36.080 adjust to anything else rather than being this person that 2:05:36.560 --> 2:05:39.440 like culturally has been created right there. They are like 2:05:39.480 --> 2:05:43.040 a cultural thing. They're an item. They're not a person anymore, 2:05:43.360 --> 2:05:45.400 and they'll never be able to escape that. Yeah. I 2:05:45.480 --> 2:05:48.280 was a piece of ship when I was seventeen, and 2:05:48.360 --> 2:05:50.760 if I had had access to an a R fifteen 2:05:51.200 --> 2:05:53.320 and a chance to feel like a hero, I might 2:05:53.360 --> 2:05:55.960 have done something horrific too, And instead you were just 2:05:56.000 --> 2:06:02.120 doing sloppy steaks And it's fine and now it's fine. Um, 2:06:02.160 --> 2:06:05.160 have you watched I think you should leave Moira? I'm sorry, 2:06:05.480 --> 2:06:09.160 have you watched I think you should leave Moira? No? Oh, 2:06:09.160 --> 2:06:14.720 it's good, it's good, Okay, all right, I'll check it out. Um, um, 2:06:15.080 --> 2:06:18.680 I'll take a look. Yeah, I don't know. Um, well, 2:06:19.560 --> 2:06:25.120 thank you, Moira. Uh, this is always appreciated. Um, it's good. 2:06:26.480 --> 2:06:30.080 I don't know, like, were you we've talked a bit 2:06:30.120 --> 2:06:33.080 about anarchism. How many of how much? How much of 2:06:33.160 --> 2:06:36.960 like your belief about the way the world ought to 2:06:37.000 --> 2:06:41.080 be and is, came as a result of getting into 2:06:41.080 --> 2:06:45.680 the guts of the legal system. Do you mean did 2:06:45.720 --> 2:06:49.160 I become more devoted to anarchy and I went to 2:06:49.200 --> 2:06:55.360 law school. Yeah? Um, I didn't become less devoted to it. 2:06:56.560 --> 2:06:58.880 I remember when I was going to law school, people 2:06:58.920 --> 2:07:01.240 kept saying, Oh, You're going to become really conservative, and 2:07:01.280 --> 2:07:04.800 I was like, I don't think that's true. That seems 2:07:05.840 --> 2:07:11.160 seems fake. Uh. And in fact, I remember being in 2:07:11.160 --> 2:07:14.320 my criminal procedure class and just thinking, how in the 2:07:14.360 --> 2:07:21.360 world can anyone at any law school read Miranda, which 2:07:21.400 --> 2:07:27.320 is a case where someone is, you know, just horrifically 2:07:27.360 --> 2:07:33.600 abused by police in order to extract a statement. How 2:07:33.640 --> 2:07:37.320 could anybody read this case and not come out of 2:07:37.400 --> 2:07:42.880 law school with a deep contempt for law enforcement. You know, 2:07:42.960 --> 2:07:47.680 I know that it happens. I don't know how always 2:07:47.760 --> 2:07:52.120 uplifting I mean it, it is it's important to know, 2:07:52.920 --> 2:07:55.680 you know. I when I was when I was younger 2:07:55.920 --> 2:07:59.360 and poor, uh and dealing with things like taxes, I 2:07:59.360 --> 2:08:01.800 would often go like years without paying them, and I 2:08:01.800 --> 2:08:05.240 would like ignore debts and bills until like like my 2:08:05.280 --> 2:08:08.000 student loans, until it became like a serious problem because 2:08:08.000 --> 2:08:09.440 I didn't want to look at it. I didn't even 2:08:09.520 --> 2:08:12.280 want to like look at the scale of the issue 2:08:12.360 --> 2:08:14.080 and grapple with it. I just wanted to run away 2:08:14.080 --> 2:08:17.000 from it. And when I actually like sat down and 2:08:18.160 --> 2:08:22.880 figured out my situation and like really came to understand 2:08:22.920 --> 2:08:24.880 like what what I needed to do in order to 2:08:24.880 --> 2:08:27.800 deal with those problems, Like, it was stressful and it sucked, 2:08:27.800 --> 2:08:32.040 and it was fucking days of work, but getting understanding 2:08:32.040 --> 2:08:34.720 the scope of the problem I'd gotten myself into was 2:08:34.760 --> 2:08:38.880 a necessary step to like fixing the situation. And I 2:08:38.960 --> 2:08:42.120 think the same is true with like this kind of ship. 2:08:42.200 --> 2:08:45.040 It's not fun. Nobody who is. I think a reasonable 2:08:45.120 --> 2:08:49.680 person like wants to dig into the US justice system 2:08:49.800 --> 2:08:52.200 and get into the guts of it because it's bleak 2:08:52.240 --> 2:08:55.520 as hell. But you need to because it's it's you 2:08:55.560 --> 2:08:59.000 can't escape it unless you flee the country. And live 2:08:59.120 --> 2:09:03.800 in a place with no extradition treaties UM or international waters. 2:09:06.520 --> 2:09:08.360 I feel like you're talking about a lot of the 2:09:08.400 --> 2:09:14.120 people you've profiled past. I mean, Ecuador does sound nice. 2:09:17.680 --> 2:09:22.680 I'm sure it's loveliest time of here. Um. Yeah, I 2:09:22.840 --> 2:09:25.120 think you're right. You need to be able to have 2:09:25.560 --> 2:09:28.400 a sort of clear eyed assessment so that we can 2:09:28.480 --> 2:09:34.440 accurately identify and effectively address the problems. Unfortunately, I think 2:09:34.440 --> 2:09:41.080 the problems are so um all encompassing that I don't 2:09:41.120 --> 2:09:45.960 know that there's I would venture to say that there 2:09:46.080 --> 2:09:53.440 is not a real totalizing solution that doesn't involve total abolition. Yeah, 2:09:53.520 --> 2:09:56.400 I I agree with you. But in the meantime, I 2:09:56.440 --> 2:09:59.440 mean I think there are there are things that we 2:09:59.520 --> 2:10:04.040 can do too, Yeah, to advocate for our clients, or 2:10:06.920 --> 2:10:09.560 as an individual, you can do to protect yourself. And 2:10:09.560 --> 2:10:11.200 that's why it is important to have some sort of 2:10:11.240 --> 2:10:15.920 working understanding UM, because you can keep yourself and the 2:10:15.920 --> 2:10:18.480 people around you at least somewhat safer if you do 2:10:18.680 --> 2:10:21.880 understand the beast um. Even though your goal is to 2:10:22.400 --> 2:10:25.640 is to destroy it. Uh. And that's I think the 2:10:25.640 --> 2:10:28.640 only reasonable goal when you really understand it, it's still 2:10:28.840 --> 2:10:31.280 behooves you to to understand it. I mean, it's the 2:10:31.280 --> 2:10:33.680 same with like it the same with what what Garrison 2:10:33.720 --> 2:10:35.440 and I do with the fucking Nazi spending all this 2:10:35.560 --> 2:10:38.160 time in weird telegram channels, like reading what they're trying 2:10:38.200 --> 2:10:41.320 to understand them, because you do need to understand them 2:10:41.320 --> 2:10:45.560 to effectively combat them. Well, it's not for the faint 2:10:45.560 --> 2:10:51.520 of heart. No, no, yeah, neither is what you do. Um. 2:10:51.560 --> 2:10:53.760 The messages is that we're all well adjusted and we're 2:10:53.800 --> 2:11:00.400 all we're all great. That boat that's the secondary trauma. No, 2:11:01.480 --> 2:11:04.480 there's no secondary trauma in international waters Moire. I have 2:11:04.560 --> 2:11:07.360 that that that my my old friend l R. H 2:11:07.720 --> 2:11:10.920 told me that just you and the open sea and 2:11:10.960 --> 2:11:13.680 a bunch of twenty year old searching for gold that 2:11:13.760 --> 2:11:19.800 I buried in a past life, live in the dream. Yeah, 2:11:20.320 --> 2:11:26.200 he is both fascinating and terrifying. Yeah. Um, just just 2:11:26.280 --> 2:11:29.680 like just like our legal system and system, and that 2:11:29.720 --> 2:11:35.480 wraps up this episode that brings us around. Um, anything 2:11:35.480 --> 2:11:38.120 you want to plug any any place, maybe our listeners 2:11:38.120 --> 2:11:43.200 could could send donations that would help somebody who's themselves 2:11:43.240 --> 2:11:46.360 against a wall at the moment. Would certainly suggest that 2:11:46.480 --> 2:11:50.440 people look into whatever bail funds are local to them. 2:11:50.520 --> 2:11:53.280 There's one I know in New York called COVID Bailout NYC. 2:11:54.120 --> 2:11:58.160 That's UM doing incredible work right now to get people 2:11:58.160 --> 2:12:03.320 off Riker's Island, which is having a humanitarian crisis of 2:12:04.040 --> 2:12:08.920 just unbelievable scope. UM. It sounds to me like the 2:12:08.920 --> 2:12:11.840 conditions on Rikers right now are at least as bad 2:12:11.840 --> 2:12:17.560 as the conditions that led to the Attica uprising. UM. 2:12:17.600 --> 2:12:21.600 So I would always, always, UM direct people to give 2:12:21.640 --> 2:12:24.800 money to local bail funds. I also want to plug 2:12:25.080 --> 2:12:31.000 the National Lawyers Guild Anti Federal Repression or Federal Defense hotline, 2:12:31.040 --> 2:12:35.440 which is to one two six seven nine to eight 2:12:35.440 --> 2:12:38.920 one one two one to six seven, nine to eight 2:12:38.960 --> 2:12:41.960 one one if you call that number, or you can 2:12:42.000 --> 2:12:45.240 call that number if you are having unwanted contact with 2:12:45.280 --> 2:12:49.360 federal agents, and you can be advised by an attorney 2:12:49.840 --> 2:12:54.040 who is ME about your rights and responsibilities with respect 2:12:54.080 --> 2:12:57.400 to federal agents, and I will try to connect you 2:12:57.440 --> 2:13:00.840 with appropriate resources in your area. This is not the 2:13:00.880 --> 2:13:04.120 hotline to call if you've been injured by a police officer. UM. 2:13:04.160 --> 2:13:06.520 This is the hotline to call if you have been 2:13:06.640 --> 2:13:12.680 visited by the FBI. UM, don't talk to cops. If 2:13:12.840 --> 2:13:15.959 you are contacted by law enforcement, say I am represented 2:13:16.000 --> 2:13:17.880 by counsel. Please leave your name and number, and my 2:13:17.960 --> 2:13:21.680 lawyer will call you. Uh. And remember that you cannot 2:13:21.680 --> 2:13:23.720 talk your way out of an arrest, but you can 2:13:23.840 --> 2:13:28.640 talk your way into a conviction. All great points, all 2:13:28.680 --> 2:13:31.840 great things to be aware of. Um, speaking of great 2:13:31.880 --> 2:13:34.200 things to be aware of. Be aware that we'll be 2:13:34.240 --> 2:13:37.080 back tomorrow, unless this is a Friday, in which case 2:13:37.120 --> 2:13:39.400 we'll be back next week. From now until the heat 2:13:39.440 --> 2:13:42.600 death of the universe. Thank you so much, Maura. You're 2:13:42.640 --> 2:13:56.400 so welcome blow and welcome to it could happen here 2:13:56.440 --> 2:14:01.040 a podcast about the continual state of bad things happening 2:14:01.080 --> 2:14:03.960 and how sometimes you can make them less bad or 2:14:04.000 --> 2:14:08.160 not happen. And today we're gonna I'm Christopher Wong, by 2:14:08.200 --> 2:14:11.760 the way, and today we're gonna be talking about Bosnia, 2:14:11.880 --> 2:14:15.760 a place where things went about as bad as they 2:14:15.760 --> 2:14:22.000 possibly can, and about how they're heading in very scary 2:14:22.040 --> 2:14:27.040 directions now. And with us to talk about this is Arnessa. 2:14:27.160 --> 2:14:31.839 Kristrad Arnessa is a genocide survivor and a academic expert 2:14:31.920 --> 2:14:35.920 on genocides in general. Arnessa, how how are you doing 2:14:37.240 --> 2:14:41.360 you know, I'm doing okay. I think all thanks considered, 2:14:42.920 --> 2:14:47.320 you know, being sort of bombarded on a daily basis 2:14:47.480 --> 2:14:52.720 with you know, possible threats, um and talks about you know, 2:14:52.760 --> 2:14:56.160 a new conflict war brewing and the Balkans is the 2:14:56.600 --> 2:15:02.120 thing not an easy thing to content define, you're not. Yeah, 2:15:02.240 --> 2:15:06.360 But other than that, I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. 2:15:07.720 --> 2:15:09.360 I'm glad. I'm glad. I'm glad you could be here 2:15:09.800 --> 2:15:14.360 with me today. Because the Balkans extremely complicated place, which 2:15:14.360 --> 2:15:16.880 I guess the story of both places. But yeah, and 2:15:16.880 --> 2:15:18.440 so I guess that that's that's where I wanted to 2:15:18.440 --> 2:15:25.400 go with my first question, because reading about what's happening now, 2:15:25.440 --> 2:15:28.800 my first instinct was go back to the date and accords. 2:15:28.840 --> 2:15:31.800 But I'm actually not sure that that's that that's that's 2:15:31.880 --> 2:15:33.800 that's even the best place to start. And so I 2:15:33.840 --> 2:15:38.040 wanted I wanted to, I guess ask you if so, okay, 2:15:38.040 --> 2:15:40.480 so if if, if you're coming into looking at the 2:15:40.520 --> 2:15:43.400 Balkans for the first time and you're trying to understand 2:15:43.400 --> 2:15:46.120 what's going on now, where do you think is the 2:15:46.120 --> 2:15:49.800 best place to start on it? Because I think you 2:15:49.880 --> 2:15:57.560 know the best. Yeah, we're talking about so much history, honestly. 2:15:57.960 --> 2:16:01.160 But the thing is, let's you know, let's start with 2:16:01.320 --> 2:16:05.600 the death of Tito. That's always a good place, I think, 2:16:06.240 --> 2:16:09.920 because that's really when things started to kind of shift 2:16:10.480 --> 2:16:13.920 in the Balkans and the former you know, socialist Upo 2:16:14.000 --> 2:16:20.600 Slavia was really once Tito died and his place became, 2:16:21.680 --> 2:16:26.240 you know empty as this sort of unifying factor of 2:16:26.280 --> 2:16:30.720 all the various ethnicities and nationalities within Yugoslavia. You know, 2:16:30.800 --> 2:16:34.480 once he was gone, that sort of left this vacuum 2:16:34.520 --> 2:16:37.320 that needed to be filled, and unfortunately, instead of being 2:16:37.800 --> 2:16:43.560 filled by another socialist, you know, pro equality, pro unity leader, 2:16:44.280 --> 2:16:50.120 it was filled with a nationalist um, which is kind 2:16:50.160 --> 2:16:54.640 of where we still are. Unfortunately. Um, you know, it 2:16:54.760 --> 2:16:59.240 started obviously with with little things, I think, with little 2:16:59.320 --> 2:17:05.960 sort of conversations and and little subtle I guess, you know, 2:17:06.400 --> 2:17:10.600 Ethno nationalist rhetorics, and it just kind of like grew 2:17:11.040 --> 2:17:14.959 and spiraled from there, and obviously, you know, that sort 2:17:15.000 --> 2:17:20.760 of thing led to Miloshevich and Kosovo giving his infamous speech, 2:17:22.280 --> 2:17:28.120 which kind of really gave that full fledged stamp on. Okay, yes, 2:17:28.240 --> 2:17:33.600 this is a ultra nationalists, you know, Ethno nationalist president 2:17:33.680 --> 2:17:38.360 that we now have, um, who's threatening war across the 2:17:38.400 --> 2:17:43.280 other ethnicities. What do we do next? Um? And at 2:17:43.320 --> 2:17:45.800 that point, you know, that's when you sort of see 2:17:46.240 --> 2:17:49.440 the other countries start to secede, you know, Slovenia and 2:17:49.520 --> 2:17:54.080 Croatia they're attacked by Serbia and then obviously eventually it 2:17:54.160 --> 2:17:58.920 goes down to Bosnia. UM. And yeah, I mean it 2:17:58.959 --> 2:18:05.199 starts with the ethno nationalism, as it always does. I think, Um, 2:18:05.480 --> 2:18:09.119 you know, I don't think we're anything special in terms 2:18:09.200 --> 2:18:13.240 of having conflict with our neighbors. Look at France and 2:18:13.320 --> 2:18:18.280 England or in our or America and Mexico or anyone. 2:18:18.440 --> 2:18:21.280 Really it's just you know, I think people make it 2:18:21.400 --> 2:18:24.720 sound as if we're special or we have these ancient hatreds, 2:18:24.800 --> 2:18:27.440 but you know that's not really true. It all comes 2:18:27.480 --> 2:18:31.880 down to the freaking politics and the leaders. And unfortunately, 2:18:32.400 --> 2:18:40.560 you know, Miloshevich was removed, but is policy is um 2:18:40.879 --> 2:18:47.240 beliefs continue to kind of stick around, you know, I think, uh, 2:18:47.320 --> 2:18:52.240 you know, people think of people like Miloshevich and odavankata Ji, 2:18:52.400 --> 2:18:56.840 who were you know, genocidal war criminals, as a thing 2:18:56.879 --> 2:18:59.280 of the past. But really you look at you know, 2:18:59.400 --> 2:19:06.039 the Serbian and president um or the SKA president middle 2:19:07.000 --> 2:19:13.320 and they are really just the continuation of Katach and relationshim. 2:19:13.440 --> 2:19:18.920 So nothing you know, has fundamentally changed since Tito died, 2:19:19.000 --> 2:19:22.800 except you know, we got some new agreements, We've got 2:19:22.840 --> 2:19:26.920 some new territories, some new ethnic lients drawn up, and 2:19:27.360 --> 2:19:30.520 not a new pretty buildings too. We have those as well, 2:19:30.680 --> 2:19:36.920 but we don't really have that coexistence um at least 2:19:36.920 --> 2:19:41.360 that on paper, not in politics. Certainly. I want go 2:19:41.640 --> 2:19:46.640 back for a second too, I guess the moment of 2:19:46.720 --> 2:19:48.959 Chito dying because it's always been a sort of interesting 2:19:51.040 --> 2:19:52.840 thing looking at it for me because I remember, I mean, 2:19:53.000 --> 2:19:55.360 you know, so from from stutting Chinese history right there, 2:19:55.360 --> 2:19:58.640 there's a period where in the seventies were okay, like 2:19:58.640 --> 2:20:01.720 everyone's looking for reform and China and you know what 2:20:01.720 --> 2:20:04.240 what you would consider like the sort of the I 2:20:04.280 --> 2:20:07.400 guess you could call them the I don't know, left 2:20:07.400 --> 2:20:10.480 and right is complicated in China, but you know, like 2:20:10.480 --> 2:20:11.880 there there are a lot of sort of what you 2:20:11.920 --> 2:20:15.879 would call like the sort of left socialists, like democratic 2:20:15.920 --> 2:20:17.760 reformers who are who you know, I mean people people 2:20:17.760 --> 2:20:19.760 like they're looking at Yugoslavia as a model and they're going, oh, 2:20:19.800 --> 2:20:22.840 we can have like workers participation, and we can have 2:20:23.120 --> 2:20:29.400 we can have these democratic enterprises, and then that just implodes. 2:20:29.520 --> 2:20:31.280 And and yeah, I wonder if we could talk a 2:20:31.320 --> 2:20:34.840 little bit about more about that, because my my very 2:20:34.840 --> 2:20:37.840 limited understanding of it was like there's an economic crisis 2:20:38.240 --> 2:20:44.240 from the oil shocks, and then once Tito dies, it's 2:20:44.280 --> 2:20:48.039 just like the wheels come off the whole system. I mean, 2:20:48.040 --> 2:20:50.520 that's a really good way of like putting it. Um, 2:20:50.560 --> 2:20:53.480 you know, like life in Yugoslavia, I don't think it 2:20:53.520 --> 2:20:56.400 was like ever perfect, and I definitely don't think it 2:20:56.480 --> 2:20:59.600 was a perfect system. I think, you know, me being 2:20:59.640 --> 2:21:02.320 a ball me and he was born to Vary, I 2:21:02.320 --> 2:21:07.520 think pro Yugoslav parents. Um. I just like many of 2:21:07.760 --> 2:21:12.640 my you know, fellow Yugoslavs or x Yugoslavs habitant seemed 2:21:12.680 --> 2:21:16.560 to look at Yugoslavia with like rose colored lenses. You know. 2:21:17.360 --> 2:21:22.760 We think about the coexistence, the unity, the multi ethnic part, 2:21:22.920 --> 2:21:27.240 the worker owned you know, socialist models, the fact that 2:21:27.560 --> 2:21:30.800 our parents, um, you know, we're able to provide for 2:21:30.879 --> 2:21:35.960 their families and take vacations and travel and um, you know, 2:21:36.080 --> 2:21:38.680 get together and all these sort of wonderful things. But 2:21:38.760 --> 2:21:41.800 in the background really in the sort of depths of 2:21:41.879 --> 2:21:47.440 the you know, politics and the economic issues were kind 2:21:47.480 --> 2:21:52.080 of always there. Um. You know. The one thing that 2:21:52.080 --> 2:21:57.240 Tito did was obviously he relied unlike I think other 2:21:57.400 --> 2:22:01.760 socialist leaders of his time is you know, he basically 2:22:01.800 --> 2:22:05.680 worked with anyone, you know, the non aligned movement, but 2:22:05.800 --> 2:22:10.520 also with the West, with Europe, you know. So uh, 2:22:10.720 --> 2:22:15.080 he was a very picky choosy I think was you know, 2:22:15.160 --> 2:22:19.840 the betterment of the country by kind of any means necessary. Um. 2:22:21.560 --> 2:22:26.680 But I think, you know, he made mistakes, just like 2:22:26.920 --> 2:22:32.400 um other leaders do. And I think obviously we had 2:22:32.600 --> 2:22:36.280 you know, two issues. One he was sick, he was dying, um. 2:22:36.959 --> 2:22:40.800 And and too there was an economic crisis happening. Um. 2:22:41.040 --> 2:22:45.240 And three then we had like the economic reforms, which 2:22:46.320 --> 2:22:50.520 really shifted the entire I mean they just they very 2:22:50.600 --> 2:22:55.520 much shifted the the system that the Yugoslav people were 2:22:55.640 --> 2:22:58.520 very much used to. Um. It became more and more 2:22:58.600 --> 2:23:02.840 prior you know, private eyes after his death. UM. And 2:23:02.840 --> 2:23:06.920 and you know, Miloshevic he was he was a banker, 2:23:07.080 --> 2:23:13.000 he was a businessman. He was he was who he was. UM. 2:23:13.040 --> 2:23:15.720 And I don't think that he ever really pretended to 2:23:15.760 --> 2:23:19.240 be a socialist, which is why I get so upset 2:23:19.320 --> 2:23:23.920 when the American leftists call him a socialist or call 2:23:24.000 --> 2:23:27.760 him an anti imperialist, because those aren't even words that 2:23:27.879 --> 2:23:32.119 you know, he himself would have really used to describe himself. 2:23:32.160 --> 2:23:36.560 I think, but but I think, you know, there was 2:23:36.680 --> 2:23:41.920 just it was that sort of thing where there's an 2:23:41.959 --> 2:23:46.840 economic crisis brewing, they have no ways to really fix it. 2:23:47.400 --> 2:23:52.160 People are broke, people are starving. Suddenly the ownership, the 2:23:52.200 --> 2:23:55.640 worker you know owned sort of model is being shifted 2:23:55.680 --> 2:23:59.840 to a more privatized model, and people are just not happy. 2:24:00.560 --> 2:24:06.400 What's a good way to distract from that? You know, 2:24:06.560 --> 2:24:09.560 It's just we see it happen everywhere. It's not a 2:24:09.640 --> 2:24:13.959 new it's not like a new, you know tactic. It's 2:24:13.959 --> 2:24:20.040 a tactic that everyone has utilized. Blame it on the other. Um. So, 2:24:20.120 --> 2:24:23.120 Yugoslavia didn't really have you know, immigrants that they could 2:24:23.160 --> 2:24:27.400 blame it on, but they had Muslims. So and they 2:24:27.440 --> 2:24:30.800 had the Kasabo you know, Albanians and the Bossians and 2:24:31.720 --> 2:24:38.200 that was, you know enough, and suddenly the conversation really shifted. 2:24:38.879 --> 2:24:43.000 And obviously I'm simplifying all of this a lot, so 2:24:43.080 --> 2:24:47.039 much more complicated. Um but you know, there there are 2:24:47.080 --> 2:24:51.160 books out there, and and that obviously go into a 2:24:51.280 --> 2:24:55.560 great you know, level of detail, um, into the actual 2:24:55.640 --> 2:25:01.880 sort of breakup, so I can give some recommendations later. Um. Yeah. 2:25:01.959 --> 2:25:04.879 But I think in in that sort of very simplistic 2:25:05.120 --> 2:25:08.320 kind of sense is there was an economic crisis happening. 2:25:08.520 --> 2:25:10.440 A good way to sort of distract that was the 2:25:10.600 --> 2:25:14.680 use of ethno nationalism, and it just kind of spiraled 2:25:14.840 --> 2:25:18.320 from there. I think, you know what Miloshevich and what 2:25:18.400 --> 2:25:22.959 people like Miloshevitch always want, it's more power for themselves. 2:25:23.200 --> 2:25:27.320 And so his whole thing wasn't really ever about keeping 2:25:27.400 --> 2:25:32.959 Yugoslavia intact as Yugoslavia. It was keeping this vision of 2:25:33.000 --> 2:25:36.959 a greater Serbia alive. Because the thing is, you know, 2:25:37.200 --> 2:25:42.280 if we had not had a person like Miloshevitch, if 2:25:42.360 --> 2:25:44.800 we just had somebody who was you know, the second, 2:25:44.959 --> 2:25:49.640 you know, maybe more or less worse or better, who cares, 2:25:50.120 --> 2:25:52.200 I think people would have been fine. I think, you know, 2:25:52.840 --> 2:25:55.560 I don't see this like war breaking now. But instead 2:25:55.600 --> 2:25:58.360 we had Miloshevitch, who was like way more concerned about 2:25:58.400 --> 2:26:02.800 consolidating power, exerting that control. And when he realized that 2:26:02.840 --> 2:26:06.160 he could use ethno nationalism to get to his goals. 2:26:07.200 --> 2:26:09.200 Of course he was going to use that. Of course, 2:26:09.320 --> 2:26:11.720 like who wouldn't you know, we see it today with 2:26:11.879 --> 2:26:15.640 like what Trump did. He utilized you know, Muslims and 2:26:15.680 --> 2:26:18.840 immigrants and refugees and black people, all his scapeboats to 2:26:18.920 --> 2:26:22.440 distract from all the other things that are wrong with him, 2:26:22.640 --> 2:26:26.600 his leadership and the overall country. And him did the same. 2:26:26.680 --> 2:26:30.840 He just did what any other politician did. And you 2:26:30.879 --> 2:26:33.879 know that's the thing I think, you know, in thinking 2:26:33.920 --> 2:26:36.960 about Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia and all these countries that started 2:26:37.000 --> 2:26:43.560 to succeed, I think if they had felt comfortable with, 2:26:44.280 --> 2:26:47.360 you know, staying in a country that is multi ethnic, 2:26:47.440 --> 2:26:49.280 at least in the case of Bosnians. I'm not going 2:26:49.320 --> 2:26:51.400 to speak for the Slovanian's or Croatians because they have 2:26:51.440 --> 2:26:56.080 their own, i think complicated identity. But with Bosnians, are 2:26:57.640 --> 2:27:01.760 are saying collectively, I think while we're not a monolith, 2:27:02.160 --> 2:27:07.680 not monolith, but collectively was always where are united? We 2:27:07.840 --> 2:27:12.680 are multi ethnic, multi religious, multi cultural, and it's such 2:27:12.760 --> 2:27:17.920 a big part of like our entire history and identity. 2:27:18.040 --> 2:27:24.160 And so if the choices being you know, under Serb 2:27:24.280 --> 2:27:29.199 control being secondary citizens, not having that equality, not having 2:27:29.200 --> 2:27:33.000 that multi ethnicity. Of course we're not going to take 2:27:33.000 --> 2:27:35.000 that choice. Of course, people are gonna want to you know, 2:27:35.560 --> 2:27:38.480 when when you have like that, you know, that boot 2:27:38.560 --> 2:27:42.000 on your neck of saying like we're going to control you, 2:27:42.120 --> 2:27:44.960 we're gonna take your land and we're gonna basically rule 2:27:45.040 --> 2:27:48.080 over you. Nobody wants to deal with that. And you know, 2:27:48.280 --> 2:27:53.600 unlike a lot of the other countries in former Yugoslavia, 2:27:54.240 --> 2:27:58.000 Bosia really was the most multi ethnic. It had one 2:27:58.040 --> 2:28:02.160 of the highest rates of you know, make ethnic marriages 2:28:02.200 --> 2:28:06.360 and multi religious marriages, and that kind of remains true 2:28:06.400 --> 2:28:12.039 even today. So especially in places like sary Evo, Mostad, Baneluka, 2:28:12.120 --> 2:28:15.080 you know, the bigger cities, it has this very proud 2:28:15.240 --> 2:28:19.800 history of you know, coexistence and multi ethnic co existence. 2:28:20.080 --> 2:28:25.000 So I think what happened for so many people was 2:28:25.320 --> 2:28:29.480 just a huge amount of shock. Um, my own family, 2:28:29.720 --> 2:28:32.280 so many people in my own family just did not 2:28:32.520 --> 2:28:36.920 think it could happen. Now. They grew up with this 2:28:37.040 --> 2:28:43.519 idea of a united you know, multi ethnic Yugoslavia, brotherhood 2:28:43.520 --> 2:28:48.400 and unity. These are our neighbors, our friends, our teachers, 2:28:48.600 --> 2:28:53.600 are lovers, you know whatever. There they work with us. 2:28:53.600 --> 2:28:55.560 They live next to us. Of course they're not gonna 2:28:55.560 --> 2:28:59.280 have you know, turn against us. And I think even 2:29:00.040 --> 2:29:03.760 while all the politicians were fearmongering, while you know, Midloshevitch 2:29:03.879 --> 2:29:07.480 and Kinda Dutes were sort of leading their campaigns of 2:29:07.640 --> 2:29:13.440 you know, especially as lamophobic provacad propaganda, um, you know, 2:29:13.520 --> 2:29:17.160 in in newspapers, on the radio, on TV, any chance 2:29:17.280 --> 2:29:20.320 that any speech that they gave, they talked about how 2:29:20.360 --> 2:29:22.240 the Muslims were coming, we were going to make their 2:29:22.320 --> 2:29:25.400 daughters wear her jobs, we were gonna take over. We're 2:29:25.400 --> 2:29:28.240 going to kill them, you know before that's why they 2:29:28.320 --> 2:29:30.280 have to kill us, because they don't pill us, We're 2:29:30.280 --> 2:29:32.520 going to kill them. It was just whole, you know, 2:29:33.360 --> 2:29:38.160 really brilliant propaganda campaign in so many ways that has 2:29:38.200 --> 2:29:42.480 now been replicated and so many other Can we talk 2:29:42.520 --> 2:29:45.880 about that specifically for yes? Second, because I think there's 2:29:45.879 --> 2:29:51.600 something interesting in the way that like the way that 2:29:51.640 --> 2:29:54.120 you get people to do with genocide always seems to 2:29:54.160 --> 2:29:57.879 be like you can't. It's extremely hard to get someone 2:29:57.959 --> 2:30:01.199 to like just murder or their neighbor because they don't 2:30:01.200 --> 2:30:03.600 like them. You have to do this like they're about 2:30:03.640 --> 2:30:05.320 to exterminate us, and that's why we have to like 2:30:05.520 --> 2:30:09.120 strike first and that. Yeah, that that that aspect of it, 2:30:09.160 --> 2:30:11.520 I think is is something that I see a lot 2:30:11.720 --> 2:30:14.320 when when I do this. Andy, you you have you 2:30:14.360 --> 2:30:18.600 have done more geneside studies. I want to hear. Yeah. 2:30:18.760 --> 2:30:22.240 I mean here's the thing. Um, it's so funny. I 2:30:22.280 --> 2:30:25.680 gave like an interview UM on this specific topic I 2:30:25.720 --> 2:30:28.840 don't know, like two years ago, and I remember turning 2:30:28.959 --> 2:30:31.080 to the guy who was interviewing me because he was 2:30:31.120 --> 2:30:34.760 just like his look on his face was I just 2:30:34.840 --> 2:30:37.640 don't understand, Like I don't. I can't wrap my mind 2:30:37.680 --> 2:30:41.879 about how people could do that to their friends, neighbors, students, 2:30:42.280 --> 2:30:45.800 you know, people they were sworn to like protect and 2:30:45.800 --> 2:30:49.160 and people they lived with their entire lives. How could 2:30:49.160 --> 2:30:51.760 they do that? Well, you know, I turned to him 2:30:51.800 --> 2:30:53.360 and I said, yeah, I mean, if I told you 2:30:53.440 --> 2:30:57.039 right now go kill him, you know you probably wouldn't. 2:30:57.480 --> 2:31:01.360 But if I came to you, they in and day out. 2:31:01.879 --> 2:31:05.039 And I slowly started to kind of whisper in your ear, 2:31:05.920 --> 2:31:08.840 and I started to tell you, you know, he's been 2:31:08.879 --> 2:31:11.320 really really I don't know, he's been saying a lot 2:31:11.360 --> 2:31:15.240 of stuff about you. He's been quite negative. Or I 2:31:15.280 --> 2:31:17.640 don't know, you know, do you think he's kind of 2:31:17.680 --> 2:31:20.480 acting weird. I feel like he might be planning something. 2:31:20.920 --> 2:31:22.840 You may be planning to take over your house. You 2:31:22.920 --> 2:31:25.880 may be planning to I don't know, probably attack your sister. 2:31:25.920 --> 2:31:27.720 I think he's going to kill your sister. I think 2:31:27.720 --> 2:31:29.840 you might make your sister wear her job. So it's 2:31:29.879 --> 2:31:32.800 these very like slow, subtle things. And that's the thing 2:31:32.800 --> 2:31:37.959 that people don't understand. You know. Violence never interrupts, like, 2:31:38.959 --> 2:31:43.800 never erupts out of nowhere, you know it. It's always planned. 2:31:44.560 --> 2:31:47.119 It bruised, and it bruise, and it bruise and then 2:31:47.160 --> 2:31:49.640 it explodes. You know. Then there's the thing. But it 2:31:50.400 --> 2:31:52.960 comes slowly. And that's how it wasn't Yo Slavia. It 2:31:53.040 --> 2:31:58.000 wasn't this sudden. You know. Oh, yes, we're brothers and sisters. Forever, 2:31:58.120 --> 2:32:01.400 go Tito, go Yugoslavia to you know, Oh, I hate 2:32:01.440 --> 2:32:03.200 you because you're Muslim, and I hate you because you're 2:32:03.200 --> 2:32:05.240 a servant. I hate you because you're croact. No, that 2:32:05.360 --> 2:32:07.879 was not the case. The case was that this was 2:32:07.920 --> 2:32:12.920 a very slow campaign of propaganda that started in the eighties, 2:32:13.520 --> 2:32:18.400 almost immediately after Tito's that let's say it started very slow, 2:32:19.360 --> 2:32:21.480 started with the you know, with the sort of I 2:32:21.520 --> 2:32:27.320 think disenfranchisement of the coast of all Albanians um and 2:32:27.440 --> 2:32:31.480 kind of the targeting of them um. And again yes 2:32:31.480 --> 2:32:33.879 there was this economic component on of it, but the 2:32:33.879 --> 2:32:38.119 way they wanted to kind of sidetrack that was, you know, well, 2:32:38.160 --> 2:32:42.240 you're you're hungry because the coast of Albanians are not, 2:32:42.680 --> 2:32:47.600 you know, and they're taking your jobs again some more uh, 2:32:47.640 --> 2:32:51.480 you know tactics that we see. Yeah, so it's not 2:32:51.600 --> 2:32:53.760 it's not that much different, but yeah, you know, it 2:32:53.879 --> 2:32:58.160 starts slow and and the militievitch and the katage and 2:32:58.200 --> 2:33:01.720 the melodic kind of campaign. Thing was God, it was brutal. 2:33:01.840 --> 2:33:03.640 I mean, like I always say, it was kind of 2:33:03.720 --> 2:33:09.000 brilliantly executed in that it really got to people so 2:33:09.080 --> 2:33:12.039 much that then again, you know, they turned neighbor against neighbor. 2:33:12.760 --> 2:33:16.840 It was it was subtle in the beginning. It was 2:33:16.920 --> 2:33:19.800 that sort of what are the Muslims up to? Can 2:33:19.840 --> 2:33:22.240 we trust them? Can you trust your neighbor? Can you 2:33:22.280 --> 2:33:26.560 trust the Muslims? You know, talking about islam sization, talking 2:33:26.600 --> 2:33:29.200 about Alia is a Bigga, which is book that he 2:33:29.240 --> 2:33:32.440 wrote when he was like I don't know eighteen or whatever, 2:33:32.760 --> 2:33:36.760 like and you know, talking about World War Two, this 2:33:36.800 --> 2:33:40.280 was another thing. Like like everybody knows that there was 2:33:40.320 --> 2:33:42.520 a period in World War Two where you know, a 2:33:42.560 --> 2:33:45.680 lot of service were killed by the Gustsia UH and 2:33:45.720 --> 2:33:50.280 by the Nazi collaborationists. And I think obviously that's a 2:33:50.360 --> 2:33:53.280 real fear for you know, for a certain group of 2:33:53.320 --> 2:33:55.959 people who went through that. So there was a lot 2:33:55.959 --> 2:33:57.840 of that as well. You know, that's going to happen again, 2:33:57.879 --> 2:34:02.520 That's gonna happen again. Meanwhile, there was no grand plan. 2:34:02.720 --> 2:34:07.160 There was never even talks of you know, committing violence 2:34:07.720 --> 2:34:10.960 or even you know, talks of you know, seceding from 2:34:11.040 --> 2:34:17.200 Yugoslavia or anything. It was all it was all set 2:34:17.240 --> 2:34:21.360 in motion by the Serbian leadership, you know. And I 2:34:21.400 --> 2:34:26.760 think that's what people don't understand. The Bousian leadership, while 2:34:26.800 --> 2:34:30.959 not perfect, we're simply reacting to what the Serbian leadership 2:34:31.000 --> 2:34:35.160 was in many ways making them do. And and that's 2:34:35.240 --> 2:34:39.000 kind of where, you know, what happens in these situations. 2:34:39.080 --> 2:34:40.480 You know, they kind of push you and push you 2:34:40.520 --> 2:34:44.280 and push you until they're able to get you know, 2:34:44.640 --> 2:34:47.280 some sort of rise out of you or response out 2:34:47.280 --> 2:34:49.960 of you, or or get you on that sort of 2:34:49.959 --> 2:34:53.120 offensive where you have to defend yourself, you have to 2:34:53.160 --> 2:34:55.160 defend your identity, you have to defend who you are, 2:34:55.240 --> 2:35:00.240 you have to justify it also in many ways. So yeah, 2:35:01.080 --> 2:35:04.880 the you know those sort of propaganda campaign God, there 2:35:05.000 --> 2:35:08.800 was you know, obviously the funny things were like things 2:35:08.800 --> 2:35:10.320 like they're going to make you wear the hit job. 2:35:10.520 --> 2:35:15.000 But it was also very insiduous because they would target 2:35:16.120 --> 2:35:21.600 like these you know villages where they were like Bosnians 2:35:21.680 --> 2:35:25.039 and Serbs, you know, living together, and they're quite small, 2:35:26.040 --> 2:35:29.080 but they knew that like in the village obviously usually 2:35:29.080 --> 2:35:31.600 have a gun or you know shotgun because of the 2:35:31.640 --> 2:35:35.080 animals or you know, working or whatever. So they were 2:35:35.120 --> 2:35:38.320 like target them specifically with like the you know, the 2:35:38.440 --> 2:35:42.840 radio and instead of like the big cities, like they 2:35:42.879 --> 2:35:45.520 worked up to the big cities, but they really started 2:35:45.520 --> 2:35:49.200 in like specific sort of areas, like in eastern Bosnia, 2:35:49.320 --> 2:35:52.200 especially because there was like a lot of UM i 2:35:52.240 --> 2:35:56.520 think majority Muslim like villages in that area that would 2:35:56.520 --> 2:36:00.000 also have like nearby served villages. So yeah, I mean 2:36:00.000 --> 2:36:01.920 it was that there was you know then sort of 2:36:01.920 --> 2:36:07.879 taking over all the radio stations and UM kind of 2:36:07.879 --> 2:36:10.680 going full force they think, like in the sort of 2:36:10.760 --> 2:36:17.640 early days of the war, like we're talking April May, 2:36:18.640 --> 2:36:23.280 they you know, they would get people like pretending that 2:36:23.320 --> 2:36:26.280 they were Bosnians, they were actually Serbs, and they would 2:36:26.320 --> 2:36:29.240 like talk about how they went to you know, kill 2:36:29.280 --> 2:36:32.720 all Serbs or something like that. Um. There was also 2:36:32.760 --> 2:36:35.840 when they were like having people in concentration camps, when 2:36:35.840 --> 2:36:38.600 they started kind of putting them in those concentration kIPS. 2:36:38.600 --> 2:36:44.879 Initially they they would make the victims in the concentration 2:36:45.000 --> 2:36:49.360 camps the Muslims basically, you know, say that, oh, they're 2:36:49.400 --> 2:36:54.600 just there as a refugee and the Serbian army is 2:36:54.640 --> 2:36:58.039 like protecting them, and they're making you feel really welcome 2:36:58.160 --> 2:37:01.400 and stuff like that. So it is right at the 2:37:01.440 --> 2:37:08.080 beginning between especially eighty nine to like the propaganda was 2:37:08.240 --> 2:37:13.000 so visible and it really escalated, and it was like 2:37:13.120 --> 2:37:18.840 suddenly everywhere and you would hear Cartgic and Middle Bershovitch 2:37:18.959 --> 2:37:23.200 talk about you know, the Muslims and the things that 2:37:23.280 --> 2:37:26.640 we wanted and you know, the things that the goals 2:37:26.680 --> 2:37:28.879 that we had, which after all, we're not you know, 2:37:29.640 --> 2:37:32.200 nobody was saying it. There wasn't like a single person 2:37:32.280 --> 2:37:34.920 that was saying these things that they were attributing to us, 2:37:35.320 --> 2:37:38.039 but that didn't matter. What they were just doing was 2:37:38.080 --> 2:37:42.160 instilling enough fear and enough doubt in the population to 2:37:42.280 --> 2:37:45.320 eventually get them to take up arms when the time comes. 2:37:46.560 --> 2:37:49.800 And unfortunately, that's precisely what happened. When the time came. 2:37:50.879 --> 2:37:52.640 You know, a lot of people did take up arms, 2:37:52.800 --> 2:37:55.680 whether or not they wanted to. They had enough of 2:37:55.760 --> 2:37:59.440 that doubt and fear so in their minds over the 2:37:59.440 --> 2:38:02.000 course of you know, several years that they ended up 2:38:02.879 --> 2:38:06.480 feeling like I have to protect myself. And I'm not 2:38:06.520 --> 2:38:08.959 saying that's the case for every certain person. I think 2:38:09.120 --> 2:38:14.840 some a lot of you know, especially in higher leadership emissions, 2:38:14.879 --> 2:38:17.960 a lot of them were just sociopaths who wanted to kill. 2:38:18.040 --> 2:38:22.320 And I don't think it mattered why or how, because 2:38:22.360 --> 2:38:25.120 you're always going to get those kind of people. But 2:38:25.240 --> 2:38:30.680 I think when we're talking about how how that shift 2:38:30.720 --> 2:38:34.120 happened so last, we have to obviously discuss the propaganda. 2:38:34.680 --> 2:38:37.720 The huge amount of propaganda that I went into, uh, 2:38:37.879 --> 2:38:45.560 you know, implementing it such a tangent that was that 2:38:45.600 --> 2:38:49.120 was really great. Yeah, I think, you know, yeah, I mean, 2:38:49.280 --> 2:38:54.560 I guess, like, I think it's incredibly important for everyone 2:38:54.560 --> 2:38:57.640 to understand that propaganda works, like if you just say 2:38:57.680 --> 2:39:00.119 something over and over and over again, like it does 2:39:00.920 --> 2:39:04.320 you know of event eventually it pays off. And you 2:39:04.320 --> 2:39:08.000 know the quote unquote payoff here is the genocide. And 2:39:08.160 --> 2:39:12.760 I guess, yeah, I'm not sure how far into detail 2:39:12.840 --> 2:39:15.920 you want to get into this here, but but I 2:39:15.959 --> 2:39:20.000 think one thing I want to kind of focus on 2:39:20.040 --> 2:39:23.000 because I think from from reading what you've been saying 2:39:23.000 --> 2:39:27.040 about this, that this wound up being a big deal 2:39:27.080 --> 2:39:29.760 with like why things are sort of still fucked now, 2:39:29.879 --> 2:39:33.840 which is that like the international response to this. Like 2:39:33.840 --> 2:39:35.120 I mean, one of the things I'm always just like 2:39:35.160 --> 2:39:38.800 haunted by is there's this quote by mid Irand who's 2:39:38.879 --> 2:39:41.440 the Prome Mr of France. He's like this, he wants 2:39:41.440 --> 2:39:43.000 to be the socialist. He's like the guy that like 2:39:43.040 --> 2:39:44.920 they finally put in power after like all of the 2:39:44.920 --> 2:39:46.960 stuff in the sixties, and he has this lying about 2:39:46.959 --> 2:39:50.960 like I'm sorry, I wish I wish I had told 2:39:51.000 --> 2:39:57.280 up the exact quote, but it's it's basically like io, yeah, 2:39:57.400 --> 2:40:01.120 do you want to say, I don't remember the exactly, Um, 2:40:01.160 --> 2:40:08.000 it's the it's what was it up? Peaceful but necessary 2:40:08.920 --> 2:40:14.760 reconstruction of a Christian europe Um and Bosnia does not belong. 2:40:16.120 --> 2:40:20.560 So I remember that differently. It's really stayed with me 2:40:20.640 --> 2:40:22.920 for such a long time because he said that at 2:40:22.920 --> 2:40:28.680 a time where the Bosnian Muslims were just completely defenseless. Um, 2:40:28.720 --> 2:40:31.600 they were being dragged the way to concentrate to shim camps. 2:40:31.640 --> 2:40:35.520 The massacres were already well underway. We're not talking about Stuberdance. 2:40:36.680 --> 2:40:43.600 We're talking about sorry about uh um even Stub nine two. 2:40:43.680 --> 2:40:47.080 You know, this is all, um, the things that happened 2:40:47.080 --> 2:40:50.680 in places like witchcoins running and all these like places 2:40:50.720 --> 2:40:53.360 that you that I think the vast majority of people 2:40:53.400 --> 2:40:57.879 don't really know about any here about, like in a 2:40:57.920 --> 2:41:00.160 lot of my family is from there. With in a 2:41:00.240 --> 2:41:05.279 span of three months, that entire town, the entire town 2:41:05.360 --> 2:41:13.240 which was once almost entirely Bosnia muslim Um, was ethnically cleansed, 2:41:13.760 --> 2:41:18.480 and that was done through forced deportations, concentration camps, mass 2:41:18.600 --> 2:41:21.600 rapes and rape camps of women and obviously a lot 2:41:21.680 --> 2:41:24.440 of murders. You know. So we're talking about one small 2:41:24.520 --> 2:41:28.959 town that took you know, three three months, and my 2:41:29.120 --> 2:41:32.480 family when it comes to that town, on both my 2:41:32.560 --> 2:41:35.600 mother's and my father's side, interestingly enough, has like such 2:41:35.600 --> 2:41:38.160 a long history. My parents fell in love there when 2:41:38.160 --> 2:41:41.520 they were like kids. So you know, they you know, 2:41:41.600 --> 2:41:44.800 my grandmother's house was there, my grandfather's house was there, 2:41:45.640 --> 2:41:48.720 um on like both sides and they, you know, so 2:41:49.160 --> 2:41:53.240 is this beautiful little town where you know Bosnians then 2:41:53.440 --> 2:41:57.039 Bosniaks and Serves and CoA hads lived in Jews Roma 2:41:57.080 --> 2:42:00.640 and you know, my parents talked about beauty of it 2:42:00.840 --> 2:42:03.640 and this wonderful sort of experience that they had when 2:42:03.680 --> 2:42:07.240 they lived there. My mom is from saraebo Um and 2:42:07.560 --> 2:42:10.280 I saw my as well obviously, but the change was 2:42:10.320 --> 2:42:12.040 like the place that she would go kind of like 2:42:12.080 --> 2:42:13.920 for the weekend just because of the family that we 2:42:13.959 --> 2:42:17.920 had there. UM so very special, I think in her 2:42:17.959 --> 2:42:23.520 heart my grandpa's heart as well, and you know, within 2:42:24.920 --> 2:42:28.320 it's just like so hard to like fathom that within 2:42:29.120 --> 2:42:32.039 just a few months that talent was completely ethnically climes 2:42:32.800 --> 2:42:36.680 and that the international community knew this and did nothing. 2:42:37.040 --> 2:42:40.200 You know, there is and I believe it's in the 2:42:40.200 --> 2:42:43.119 Clinton tapes as well, but there's this thing about how 2:42:43.720 --> 2:42:47.400 they had provided aerial footage of the massacres that were 2:42:47.440 --> 2:42:51.200 being that were being enacted in places like Pittical and 2:42:51.480 --> 2:42:56.640 Vonnique where, oh my god, depare military served forces did 2:42:56.760 --> 2:43:05.760 some horror, horrifying acts of violence and torture against the civilians. UM. 2:43:05.800 --> 2:43:08.360 And they had you know, showed it to the Clintons, 2:43:08.440 --> 2:43:11.320 and they showed it to the French and the English, 2:43:11.360 --> 2:43:16.920 and they did nothing. You know, they knew that a 2:43:17.040 --> 2:43:20.720 genocide was unfolding, UM. And the Day in Peace Agreement 2:43:21.360 --> 2:43:28.400 wasn't signed until so the international UM community I think 2:43:29.080 --> 2:43:35.640 as just as much of a responsibility in the you know, 2:43:35.720 --> 2:43:40.000 the genocide of the Bosniaks as Serbia does, because they 2:43:40.040 --> 2:43:42.600 sat there, they watched when they had all the power 2:43:42.640 --> 2:43:45.640 to stop it. They always had the power to stop it. 2:43:45.680 --> 2:43:47.480 They had the power to stop it before it even 2:43:47.640 --> 2:43:52.080 before even one person got killed, um. And and two 2:43:53.280 --> 2:43:56.840 they it's not even that they just watched, it's that 2:43:56.920 --> 2:44:02.039 they purposely left the Muslims defenseless. Guys. Serbia had all 2:44:02.160 --> 2:44:08.160 the Yugoslav army, all the weapons, all the you know, everything, 2:44:08.240 --> 2:44:10.600 all the tools that they needed to commit j other's side. 2:44:10.640 --> 2:44:16.360 They already had it, all the arsenal everything, um and 2:44:16.400 --> 2:44:19.240 you do, it was army was like the most powerful 2:44:19.280 --> 2:44:23.120 in the region at the time, and I think the fourth, third, 2:44:23.440 --> 2:44:30.200 third or fourth most powerful in like the europe Turkey areas, 2:44:30.240 --> 2:44:34.360 so we you know, quite a powerful army. And there 2:44:34.440 --> 2:44:40.440 was Bosnia which had no weapons, no military um. You know, 2:44:40.520 --> 2:44:45.600 you see these pictures of like civilians fighting against you know, 2:44:46.160 --> 2:44:51.440 tanks and mortar shells and snipers, and it's like these 2:44:51.520 --> 2:44:55.280 you know, youths basically and like converse and jeans and 2:44:55.400 --> 2:45:00.720 like an army jacket playing soldier because that's all we had, 2:45:00.760 --> 2:45:04.320 you know, we had the homemade weapons, we had um 2:45:04.360 --> 2:45:09.080 you know, how to make your own bomb books kind 2:45:09.080 --> 2:45:12.760 of thing, and trying to basically descend ourselves with anything 2:45:12.800 --> 2:45:18.680 that we could. Um. They specifically did not lift the 2:45:18.800 --> 2:45:23.280 arms embargo, knowing that they were leaving us defense less. 2:45:23.280 --> 2:45:26.520 Like they just knew there was no way. There's no 2:45:26.600 --> 2:45:29.520 doubt on everything that we have read about the international 2:45:29.560 --> 2:45:36.840 community response, everything that Clinton mean John mayor Major Major 2:45:37.160 --> 2:45:41.280 um not mayor Major have said you know about it 2:45:41.440 --> 2:45:45.400 during that period shows us that they absolutely knew that 2:45:45.440 --> 2:45:49.000 we were defenseless, you know, and this wasn't you know 2:45:49.000 --> 2:45:51.240 a lot of people say I didn't know about the 2:45:51.240 --> 2:45:56.160 Bosnian genocide, but it was discussed you know, I've looked 2:45:56.200 --> 2:45:59.160 at the archived footage. Um, it was talked about, it 2:45:59.160 --> 2:46:02.440 on television, was brought up in parliament, and incentive that 2:46:02.800 --> 2:46:05.320 was people at the time who are like, why are 2:46:05.360 --> 2:46:09.720 we leaving the Bosnians defense lives? Why are we you know, 2:46:10.200 --> 2:46:13.039 not helping them, Why are we allowing them to be 2:46:13.080 --> 2:46:15.760 allowed into slaughter? This is genocide blah blah blah. So 2:46:15.840 --> 2:46:18.960 even as early as there was still people who knew 2:46:19.000 --> 2:46:23.520 about this stuff, we're telling the leaders but nothing. Yeah, 2:46:23.920 --> 2:46:26.160 I think I think like that part also, like it's 2:46:26.160 --> 2:46:28.920 it's not just that like they did nothing, like they 2:46:29.120 --> 2:46:31.720 like they did worse than doing nothing, like mitterrans actively 2:46:31.760 --> 2:46:36.160 cheering it on, Like you know, the arms embargo is 2:46:36.200 --> 2:46:39.040 just like the arms embargo if you're applying in arms 2:46:39.040 --> 2:46:43.280 in bargo on a conflict where one people one side 2:46:43.360 --> 2:46:46.080 has tanks and the other side has like molotovs, like 2:46:46.160 --> 2:46:48.640 you are actively supporting one of the sides. And I 2:46:48.640 --> 2:46:52.240 think that like that just like is completely lost in 2:46:52.320 --> 2:46:56.760 how like almost everyone seems to talk about this now 2:46:56.840 --> 2:47:00.200 because there's like you know, because because when you word 2:47:00.200 --> 2:47:03.600 of get like interventions later, like people are like, oh, look, 2:47:03.640 --> 2:47:05.760 the West was like planning to intervene here the whole time, 2:47:05.800 --> 2:47:10.640 and it's like no, like they were literally cheering, was cheering, 2:47:10.720 --> 2:47:15.280 Like it's like it's so frustrating because you know, we 2:47:15.720 --> 2:47:19.280 you take what we know about. And here's the thing. 2:47:19.400 --> 2:47:24.320 I know that Islamophobia escalated after nine eleven, but is 2:47:24.320 --> 2:47:27.800 Islamophobia has existed for a very long time. And I 2:47:27.840 --> 2:47:32.200 think talked to the black Muslims of America, they will 2:47:32.240 --> 2:47:34.400 tell you more, you know, better than than I could 2:47:34.400 --> 2:47:37.039 ever tell you about the history of Islamophobia in the 2:47:37.160 --> 2:47:41.840 United States. So it's Alamophobia was always an aspect of life. 2:47:42.080 --> 2:47:45.720 And in Europe, Islamophobia just like anti Semitism. I mean, 2:47:45.879 --> 2:47:51.560 it is like the staple of European cultural cuisine. So 2:47:51.680 --> 2:47:54.400 to say yeah, it's like it's like yeah, it's like 2:47:54.400 --> 2:47:56.120 that there's there's a there's a there's they have they 2:47:56.120 --> 2:47:57.520 have like they have like the like the the tri 2:47:57.640 --> 2:48:02.560 force of Europeans of European civilization is anti Semitism, Islamophobia 2:48:02.720 --> 2:48:08.760 and hating the roma, just like how for the force. 2:48:08.879 --> 2:48:12.160 And so I think the sort of thing about the 2:48:12.280 --> 2:48:17.560 explicitness of European leadership, especially at the time in in 2:48:19.120 --> 2:48:23.120 you know, effectively ensuring that we were killed off because 2:48:23.840 --> 2:48:29.240 a Muslim country in Europe could not exist. And that's 2:48:29.280 --> 2:48:31.800 the thing that they said, literally set a Muslim country 2:48:31.800 --> 2:48:37.680 in Europe cannot exist. Like the fact that that was 2:48:37.720 --> 2:48:41.520 so open and brazen like kind of takes me back, 2:48:41.600 --> 2:48:46.640 but it really like tells you how much is Lamophobia informed. 2:48:46.840 --> 2:48:49.920 I think the international community responds on this, and it's 2:48:49.959 --> 2:48:53.200 so interesting to me now. I think I've seen it 2:48:53.280 --> 2:48:55.480 over the past, I would say, especially five years, the 2:48:55.560 --> 2:49:01.600 sort of leftist genocide and leftist anti imperialist kind of 2:49:01.640 --> 2:49:05.440 defense of Miloshevich. And oh they were the you know, 2:49:05.520 --> 2:49:07.560 the serves with the actual victims, blah blah blah and 2:49:07.640 --> 2:49:11.200 NATO blah blah blah, Western intervention. And I'm just like, oh, 2:49:11.240 --> 2:49:13.600 my god, read a book, read an article from that, 2:49:14.040 --> 2:49:17.119 read their actual quotes. There's no way that you can 2:49:17.160 --> 2:49:22.760 actually convince me that Europe, fortress Europe, and the United 2:49:22.760 --> 2:49:26.320 States of America would do anything that would benefit, you know, 2:49:26.440 --> 2:49:28.879 the Muslims. Was this what was one of the things 2:49:28.920 --> 2:49:31.800 I think was it's really interesting to me about the 2:49:31.840 --> 2:49:33.400 way that the sort of like left sand of sides 2:49:33.440 --> 2:49:36.120 nihilism works, like it always seems to be Regin's homophobia, 2:49:36.160 --> 2:49:39.280 like and I remember started seeing this with Bosnia too, 2:49:39.320 --> 2:49:41.320 where they're like, oh, yeah, well it's it's because it's 2:49:41.320 --> 2:49:43.280 because what's okay, they have two things. One it's like, 2:49:43.360 --> 2:49:45.400 well that the Bossians were Nazis been. The second one 2:49:45.480 --> 2:49:47.400 was that, oh, well that the boss the Bossians were 2:49:47.400 --> 2:49:49.560 like altra hotti ists, and it's like like, it's the 2:49:49.600 --> 2:49:51.640 exact same thing you see with China, and it's like, oh, 2:49:51.760 --> 2:49:56.360 it's because all the weakers are like sealafi Jo hottest 2:49:56.400 --> 2:50:00.680 iss c I A. And it's like no, yeah, I 2:50:00.720 --> 2:50:05.280 mean it's it's it's honestly laughable at this point. It 2:50:05.360 --> 2:50:08.000 really is. And it also just you know, obviously I'm 2:50:08.000 --> 2:50:11.320 a leftist. You know, I'm gonna cheer the left on 2:50:11.520 --> 2:50:14.280 to an extent, but that is my red line. The 2:50:14.360 --> 2:50:17.640 genocide anatism really is my red line. And the reason 2:50:17.680 --> 2:50:20.440 it's it's you know, my red line isn't just because 2:50:20.440 --> 2:50:23.280 I'm a genocide survivor, but because it's like, oh, for 2:50:23.360 --> 2:50:28.000 God's sake, the data, the statistics, the research, the forensic 2:50:28.160 --> 2:50:35.240 the analysis, the specific quotes, videos, articles, uh, you know, 2:50:35.320 --> 2:50:37.560 all of those things exist and are out there, and 2:50:37.600 --> 2:50:39.600 all you have to do is actually do your research 2:50:39.640 --> 2:50:41.600 and you will find out that actually know you're in 2:50:41.640 --> 2:50:44.360 the wrong. And the other thing is what you just 2:50:44.400 --> 2:50:47.039 said about the sort of thing of painting you know, 2:50:47.080 --> 2:50:49.920 the Muslims is like the Nazis and the you know, 2:50:50.000 --> 2:50:54.360 the extremists. Um. You know, the thing about like the 2:50:54.360 --> 2:50:58.160 Bazian Muslims is like, we don't hide the fact that 2:50:58.200 --> 2:51:01.440 there were people of our community they that participated in 2:51:01.560 --> 2:51:07.200 Nazi crimes. There isn't this goal of concealing those crimes, 2:51:07.320 --> 2:51:11.959 of minimizing the crimes or pretending that they were right. Um, 2:51:12.000 --> 2:51:14.760 there is I'm sure a French group of people who 2:51:14.879 --> 2:51:17.520 defend these kinds of people, Like there is a French 2:51:17.560 --> 2:51:22.119 when I'm talking about the collective sort of Bosnian Um, 2:51:22.160 --> 2:51:24.879 you know, state level response as well as like an 2:51:25.040 --> 2:51:30.280 individual response is that the you know, the Nazi division 2:51:31.080 --> 2:51:36.160 had like seventeen thousand Bosnians soldiers, and there's millions of 2:51:36.160 --> 2:51:40.039 Bosnians in the country. The vast majority ended up joining 2:51:40.080 --> 2:51:44.440 the Partisans and stood against the Nazis. And the thing is, 2:51:44.600 --> 2:51:48.280 you can't when it comes to Yugoslavia and World War 2:51:48.320 --> 2:51:50.959 two and the Holocaust, you can't just say that the 2:51:51.000 --> 2:51:54.160 Bosnians were Nazi lebition ists, because the thing is, so 2:51:54.280 --> 2:51:57.760 are the Serbians, so are the Serbs, so are the Croats. 2:51:58.320 --> 2:52:01.600 At that time, Let's be honest, who the hell wasn't 2:52:01.760 --> 2:52:06.600 a Nazi collaboration is now just doesn't excuse it, absolutely not. 2:52:07.040 --> 2:52:10.440 But what it does sort of show is that that history, 2:52:10.720 --> 2:52:15.400 that period um in Yugoslav history is really complicated because 2:52:15.840 --> 2:52:18.760 you know, you had the Gusta sia Um and then 2:52:18.800 --> 2:52:21.720 you had the Chechniques and then there's a period where 2:52:21.720 --> 2:52:24.880 the Chechniks were against Ustasia, right because like used to 2:52:24.920 --> 2:52:27.720 show we're killing Serbs and Romans and Jews. But then 2:52:27.760 --> 2:52:31.119 the Chechniques turned around and there you know, these Serb nationalists, 2:52:31.360 --> 2:52:34.400 they start killing the Jews and the Roma, and then 2:52:34.400 --> 2:52:36.520 they start working with the USA to hand down the 2:52:36.600 --> 2:52:38.480 Jews in the Roma, and then they start working with 2:52:38.560 --> 2:52:45.120 them to stand against the you know, the Tito's Partisans. Um. Meanwhile, 2:52:45.200 --> 2:52:51.440 you know Tito's Partisans had a multi ethnic coalition, like 2:52:51.520 --> 2:52:58.879 and we're talking about Serbs, Bosnians, Roma, Jews, Croats, Albanians, 2:52:58.879 --> 2:53:03.119 you know, all sorts of people who were very like, 2:53:03.560 --> 2:53:07.800 you know, anti Nazism. So you know, we're we're gonna 2:53:08.200 --> 2:53:11.400 we're gonna win, We're gonna rebuild our country, We're gonna 2:53:11.720 --> 2:53:15.480 you know, make this beautiful sort of you know, multi 2:53:15.560 --> 2:53:18.280 ethnic kind of state, which they did, which is amazing. 2:53:18.600 --> 2:53:21.000 But yeah, but it is a complicated sort of piece 2:53:21.000 --> 2:53:23.000 of history. So you can't really say, oh, yes, they're 2:53:23.120 --> 2:53:27.120 the Nazi collaborationists because um, at some point or not, 2:53:27.320 --> 2:53:32.240 everybody was, and at some point or not everybody was. Also. Yeah, 2:53:32.280 --> 2:53:34.080 it's like like it's when when when you when you 2:53:34.080 --> 2:53:39.160 start getting into like it becomes this like you know, 2:53:39.520 --> 2:53:44.360 it becomes a way of just getting people to I 2:53:44.360 --> 2:53:47.160 don't know how to describe it, like you know, when 2:53:47.160 --> 2:53:54.720 when when it starts being like this specific ethnic group 2:53:54.800 --> 2:53:58.240 as a whole is responsible for all of these crimes. 2:53:58.240 --> 2:54:01.120 Just like no, they're not like that's that's not that's 2:54:01.120 --> 2:54:03.840 not how this works. Like it's not like like like 2:54:03.879 --> 2:54:05.920 they're like there are like there, yeah, there there's gonna 2:54:05.959 --> 2:54:07.520 be people in the ethnic group who did things that 2:54:07.560 --> 2:54:10.320 were awful. There's also going to be people, especially especially 2:54:10.400 --> 2:54:12.440 in insuffiction like this, there's there's a lot like a 2:54:12.440 --> 2:54:17.480 lot of probably more people who fought them. Yeah, like yeah, 2:54:17.680 --> 2:54:20.720 that's such an interesting statement because I'm going to compare 2:54:20.879 --> 2:54:23.640 to the bossing and response after the genocide, which has 2:54:23.640 --> 2:54:28.720 consistently been no, we don't believe that every single service bad, 2:54:29.520 --> 2:54:31.959 and we are only talking about those that took place, 2:54:32.160 --> 2:54:36.080 took part in these crimes, and those that concealed them. 2:54:36.160 --> 2:54:40.160 And that has always been the collective and state level 2:54:40.240 --> 2:54:44.040 response of all Bosans. Now you have to think about 2:54:44.600 --> 2:54:51.280 I have a friend who's who, who's nine members of 2:54:51.280 --> 2:54:58.320 her family were killed in Stubberty in July. That's an 2:54:58.360 --> 2:55:03.320 absorbent number of people. These were women, children, and men 2:55:03.480 --> 2:55:07.520 and elderly. There was no discrimination when it kim comes 2:55:07.560 --> 2:55:11.320 to her. I've sat with her as she's read all 2:55:11.360 --> 2:55:15.279 the names of her you know, killed family members. That woman, 2:55:15.440 --> 2:55:17.920 with all the pain that she survived with being there 2:55:17.959 --> 2:55:21.120 as a young girl in the midst of genocide, in 2:55:21.160 --> 2:55:25.359 the midst of these her horrifying crimes, has never once 2:55:25.959 --> 2:55:28.960 publicly or privately to me said, yes, old Serbs are 2:55:29.000 --> 2:55:31.119 the same, Yes all of them are war criminals, Yes 2:55:31.200 --> 2:55:34.240 all of them hate us, absolutely not. And the thing 2:55:34.320 --> 2:55:37.760 is I think about myself as well, Like you know, 2:55:37.840 --> 2:55:41.800 my earliest childhood memories me being shot at by a sniper, 2:55:42.160 --> 2:55:45.760 knowing my father was in a concentration camp, knowing that 2:55:45.879 --> 2:55:49.360 my grandmother was just killed by a bomb. Um knowing that, 2:55:49.400 --> 2:55:52.560 you know, my biological dad was dying in a hospital 2:55:52.640 --> 2:55:55.440 from an attack, and my mother could also be killed 2:55:55.520 --> 2:55:57.400 because she was pregnant with my brother at the time. 2:55:57.400 --> 2:56:01.160 And so these are my earliest childhood memories. Um, they're 2:56:01.200 --> 2:56:05.880 not very happy memories. And I know why those things happened, 2:56:06.040 --> 2:56:07.879 you know, I know why I was being shot at 2:56:07.920 --> 2:56:09.920 by a sniper, and it was because I was Bosnian. 2:56:10.000 --> 2:56:12.560 It it was because I was Muslin, and because I 2:56:12.600 --> 2:56:14.800 was seen as the enemy, even though I was you know, 2:56:15.160 --> 2:56:18.440 a little kid at you know, six seven years old, um, 2:56:18.480 --> 2:56:20.920 and absolutely not a threat to anyone, and nobody should 2:56:20.920 --> 2:56:24.280 have been shooting at me. They did. Anyway, even though 2:56:24.320 --> 2:56:28.880 that happened, I never had that feeling of all serbs 2:56:28.879 --> 2:56:30.960 are awful. All serbs are you know, I'm going to 2:56:31.040 --> 2:56:34.720 paint them all with a brush. But a lot of them, unfortunately, 2:56:34.879 --> 2:56:38.720 especially on the you know, the the ultra nationalists that 2:56:38.800 --> 2:56:41.840 continue to not just the night the genis nipe, but 2:56:41.920 --> 2:56:46.920 also glorifyed and celebrate it. They do paint everyone with 2:56:47.000 --> 2:56:50.320 the same brush, you know, And and the worst thing 2:56:50.440 --> 2:56:52.959 The funniest thing is that they paint themselves with the 2:56:53.000 --> 2:56:55.680 same brush, you know. They they think that they get 2:56:55.680 --> 2:56:59.840 to speak for every single serve person um, and that's 2:57:00.160 --> 2:57:04.400 the tragic path. Like I'm not, I'm not. I get 2:57:04.400 --> 2:57:07.040 accused of like constantly talking about serbs, and I'm like, 2:57:07.760 --> 2:57:10.640 I absolutely am not. I'm talking about the nationalists that 2:57:10.720 --> 2:57:13.480 I will call out all the nationalists, whether they're CAUSI 2:57:13.520 --> 2:57:18.920 in serpient Croation, American whatever, but we're talking about you 2:57:18.959 --> 2:57:22.280 know what you're doing to me and your response to 2:57:22.320 --> 2:57:26.200 my criticism of nationalism is actually the thing that's ruining 2:57:26.240 --> 2:57:29.039 your reputation. Yeah, it's it's the it's it's de'th the 2:57:29.120 --> 2:57:31.120 nationals camp it it's it's you have you have to 2:57:31.160 --> 2:57:34.000 conflate all of the individual people, the ethnic group, and 2:57:34.040 --> 2:57:35.400 the state. They all they all have to be this like, 2:57:35.400 --> 2:57:37.560 you know, this must be this organic totality and it's 2:57:37.560 --> 2:57:39.879 not true. It's just not. But that's you know, that's 2:57:39.920 --> 2:57:42.960 that's that's the sort of it's it's the motus apperanda 2:57:43.040 --> 2:57:47.080 behind their entire ideology, and it's what they deploy, you know, 2:57:47.160 --> 2:57:49.360 it's what they deploy when the genocides, is what they 2:57:49.360 --> 2:57:52.240 deploy when they have to sort of like you know, 2:57:54.000 --> 2:57:59.080 sort of promoted openly or less openly afterwards. Yeah, it's 2:57:59.120 --> 2:58:02.840 like that justific it's how they justify it, I know. 2:58:03.640 --> 2:58:07.760 And like we all know about the ten stages of genocide, 2:58:08.600 --> 2:58:16.800 but my colleague Um, who's brilliant actually has often talked 2:58:16.800 --> 2:58:22.520 about that the nihilism is not really the final stage 2:58:22.840 --> 2:58:28.680 of genocide. It is in fact triumphalism, Um. And that's 2:58:28.680 --> 2:58:30.920 what we're actually seeing in Bosnia. You know, we're not 2:58:32.240 --> 2:58:36.760 I get genocide denialism from American leftists and like British 2:58:36.840 --> 2:58:40.160 leftists who are on a certain spectrum and obvious certain 2:58:41.680 --> 2:58:47.520 I don't get genocide denialism from at No nationalists serves. 2:58:47.760 --> 2:58:52.439 What I get from them actually is very openly celebrating 2:58:52.560 --> 2:58:56.440 and threatening another genocide. They are not in my mentions 2:58:56.840 --> 2:59:00.720 saying oh there was no genocide. Uh, they're I mentioned 2:59:00.760 --> 2:59:03.160 saying no one shops a Steba and so, which is 2:59:03.200 --> 2:59:07.240 basically a slogan that says knife fire, serbonizza, and it's 2:59:07.280 --> 2:59:11.480 like basically a threat that another Sherebonia will occur. There. 2:59:11.480 --> 2:59:13.880 In my mentions, in my emails and in my d 2:59:14.160 --> 2:59:17.400 MS sending me threats about how they can't wait till 2:59:17.440 --> 2:59:20.560 I'm put in a rape camp again, How they can't 2:59:20.560 --> 2:59:23.640 wait untill they kill my family, until sorry ever gets 2:59:23.640 --> 2:59:26.760 bombed again, and how you know we're they're gonna finish 2:59:26.800 --> 2:59:30.160 the job. How Ram is a hero because he killed 2:59:30.280 --> 2:59:34.960 all those you know, people in Serbonizza and sorry, um 2:59:35.120 --> 2:59:37.520 Kada Ditch is a hero because he's the same Alosha, 2:59:37.560 --> 2:59:40.440 which is a hero because he believes in a greater servia. 2:59:41.000 --> 2:59:45.280 These people don't hide it, um, And that's the thing. 2:59:45.400 --> 2:59:49.360 So it's it's very like just today, you know, the 2:59:49.520 --> 2:59:51.879 first thing in the morning, I opened my Twitter and 2:59:51.959 --> 2:59:56.240 the first thing that I see is a Bosnian activist 2:59:56.879 --> 3:00:00.840 arrested for protesting the dot com Laach mural, which the 3:00:00.840 --> 3:00:08.680 Serbian police were guarding. They were guarding a mural get like, 3:00:08.720 --> 3:00:12.680 a mural of a war criminal who committed genocide, who 3:00:12.840 --> 3:00:18.120 who everybody knows committed genocide, a mural glorifying him. They 3:00:18.200 --> 3:00:22.000 were got the police were guarding you know, the mural 3:00:22.560 --> 3:00:26.760 and inflicting damage on innocent civilians who were there too, 3:00:27.160 --> 3:00:29.560 you know, protest against the mural. And so I think 3:00:29.600 --> 3:00:34.560 that really tells you so much the issue in the Balkans. 3:00:35.560 --> 3:00:38.160 This has When it Could Happen Here? Join us tomorrow 3:00:38.240 --> 3:00:40.920 for part two of this interview, which we discuss the 3:00:41.000 --> 3:00:44.279 dangers of what's currently happening in Bosnia. In the meantime, 3:00:44.879 --> 3:00:48.400 find us on Twitter It Happened Here pod, and you 3:00:48.440 --> 3:00:51.480 can find us on Twitter and Instagram for the rest 3:00:51.480 --> 3:01:07.800 of our shows at cool Zone Media. What Could It 3:01:07.840 --> 3:01:11.920 Could Happen Here a podcast about bad things happening and 3:01:11.959 --> 3:01:15.640 how they can continue to happen if you don't stop them. 3:01:15.680 --> 3:01:19.080 I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and today we're doing part 3:01:19.120 --> 3:01:22.840 two of the interview with genocide expert Arness Acustra, focusing 3:01:22.879 --> 3:01:25.360 on the absolutely horrifying things that have been happening in 3:01:25.400 --> 3:01:27.600 Bosnia recently. Is you and if you hope you enjoy? 3:01:28.200 --> 3:01:30.039 Can you can you give an explanation of what's happened 3:01:30.040 --> 3:01:35.320 in the last couple of weeks because it's terrifying and 3:01:35.440 --> 3:01:38.279 I don't think enough people are talking about it. Yeah, 3:01:38.480 --> 3:01:43.119 I mean, yeah, So that's where are we now? Uh, 3:01:43.360 --> 3:01:46.120 you know, I'm just going to talk briefly about the 3:01:46.200 --> 3:01:49.000 date and agreement because I think, yeah, yeah, the audience 3:01:49.000 --> 3:01:51.440 speeds to understand what the dating agreement is and I 3:01:51.520 --> 3:01:53.080 was going to talk about it earlier, but I went 3:01:53.120 --> 3:01:57.880 off on a tangent, So my apologies. UM. So obviously 3:01:58.200 --> 3:02:00.959 you know where the war is, how opening the genocide 3:02:01.000 --> 3:02:06.720 is happening. UM stburns. The worst of the genocide happens. 3:02:06.800 --> 3:02:10.000 You know, eight thousand people are killed in just a 3:02:10.040 --> 3:02:14.720 matter of a few weeks, few days really, Um. The 3:02:14.800 --> 3:02:19.800 international community does not act at that time. UM. Towards 3:02:19.840 --> 3:02:23.360 the end of the year, another attack happens, since Saraevo 3:02:23.400 --> 3:02:27.920 and Marcalis, civilians are once again targeted waiting for bread fruit. 3:02:28.160 --> 3:02:32.119 I think it was humanitarian aid at the market, and 3:02:32.200 --> 3:02:35.240 that that's kind of when the international community starts to 3:02:36.400 --> 3:02:40.680 open their eyes a bit and negotiations start and not 3:02:40.840 --> 3:02:43.280 to borry with the details and no. Geotiation process was 3:02:43.320 --> 3:02:47.520 absolutely ridiculous, and every single time to discussed it, it 3:02:47.600 --> 3:02:51.760 was about splitting Bosnia down ethnic lines. And that's ultimately 3:02:51.800 --> 3:02:57.359 what happened with the Dating Agreement. Yes, peace, quote unquote 3:02:57.680 --> 3:03:03.040 peace was achieved, but the Dayton Agreement mandated so that 3:03:04.680 --> 3:03:08.640 there would be a three member presidency. So instead of 3:03:08.680 --> 3:03:11.080 having one president, we would have a three member presidency. 3:03:11.160 --> 3:03:15.520 It's a rotating presidency. There would be a Curat representative, 3:03:15.800 --> 3:03:20.520 a Bosnia representative, and a Server representative. That also means 3:03:20.560 --> 3:03:23.959 that there's no representatives for anyone who's another, whether it's 3:03:23.959 --> 3:03:29.879 the identified Yugoslav, Roma, Jewish, Bosnian but not Boshnak like 3:03:29.959 --> 3:03:33.600 they you know, it's just there's no space for the 3:03:33.600 --> 3:03:37.000 other in this constitution with the state in peace agreement. 3:03:37.040 --> 3:03:40.440 But that's for another day. Um. They also split the 3:03:40.480 --> 3:03:43.960 country down by ethnic lines. So all of those genocides 3:03:44.000 --> 3:03:47.160 and ethnic cleansing that the Serbs had just been committing 3:03:47.560 --> 3:03:52.160 all over eastern Bosnia up in the north, um, you know, 3:03:52.520 --> 3:03:57.400 basically the international community said, good job, here's your own 3:03:57.480 --> 3:04:01.640 territory that you ethnically cleanse. UM. So they split the 3:04:01.680 --> 3:04:06.400 country down, you know, these ethnic lines, and uh, you know, 3:04:06.440 --> 3:04:08.440 the warst stops. And then now we have to sort 3:04:08.480 --> 3:04:10.920 of contend with this you know, peace agreement. With the 3:04:10.959 --> 3:04:16.960 new constitution. We we get this UM called the OHR 3:04:17.680 --> 3:04:20.880 Office of the High Representative. The High Representative is basically 3:04:21.440 --> 3:04:24.879 a person who holds the highest power in the country. 3:04:25.360 --> 3:04:29.640 They're not a Bosnian, they're actually kind of um, they're 3:04:29.680 --> 3:04:35.280 put in place there by the international community. So the 3:04:35.360 --> 3:04:38.400 o HR kind of you know comes then breaks us 3:04:38.480 --> 3:04:41.920 up when we're squabbling over issues, and this has been 3:04:42.000 --> 3:04:47.160 anything from things like the flag, like the new flag 3:04:47.200 --> 3:04:50.840 of Bosnia. The flag of Bosnia that was the flag 3:04:50.879 --> 3:04:53.080 of Bosnia had to sort of be a place because 3:04:53.600 --> 3:04:56.439 the OHR deems that it would be you know, offensive 3:04:56.520 --> 3:04:59.720 to the Serbs or the Croats um and the same 3:04:59.760 --> 3:05:03.119 thing like the national anthem. So they hold a lot 3:05:03.120 --> 3:05:10.720 of power. Now just recently we switched a HR representatives, 3:05:10.720 --> 3:05:13.520 so we have a new High representative. Before it was 3:05:13.560 --> 3:05:18.400 Valentinianscope and his final kind of part of his you know, 3:05:18.959 --> 3:05:23.760 time as the High Representative was to enact a law 3:05:23.920 --> 3:05:29.080 against genocide denialism, which the Bosnians have really been campaigning 3:05:29.120 --> 3:05:32.520 for for years because you know, um, I think in 3:05:32.879 --> 3:05:35.879 your birthplace, in the place where the worst crime ever 3:05:35.959 --> 3:05:38.600 could you know, happen to you, happen to you, where 3:05:39.320 --> 3:05:42.320 you know, fifty women were raped, a hundred thousand people 3:05:42.320 --> 3:05:46.960 were killed, um, six hundred plus mass graves were you know, 3:05:47.240 --> 3:05:51.800 dug up to hide the crimes and the massacres. People 3:05:51.920 --> 3:05:57.840 want to be able to you know, know the truth 3:05:57.959 --> 3:06:00.720 and and and and be feel safe with the truth. 3:06:00.760 --> 3:06:04.000 So the genocide denialism law was good but this is 3:06:04.120 --> 3:06:07.560 kind of when things started to you know, shift a bit, 3:06:07.720 --> 3:06:11.520 because I think Dotta came out Melante, who is currently 3:06:11.600 --> 3:06:15.800 the Serb member of the Presidency who controls the Bublical Subsco, 3:06:15.959 --> 3:06:19.840 which is the entity where that's considered the Serb entity, 3:06:20.120 --> 3:06:24.080 but Bosniacs also lived there as well. Um, he came 3:06:24.080 --> 3:06:26.240 out and he said, well, if they passed the genocide 3:06:26.240 --> 3:06:30.520 denialism law, we're going to succeed within eight days. And 3:06:30.560 --> 3:06:35.600 obviously that didn't happen months ago. And here's here's the thing, um, 3:06:35.760 --> 3:06:39.600 milanids Doteck has been threatening succession for years now. This 3:06:39.680 --> 3:06:45.640 is not anything new. What is new is the fact 3:06:45.920 --> 3:06:51.760 that this time he seems to talk about not just 3:06:51.840 --> 3:06:55.480 talk and threaten about succeeding, but actually has started to 3:06:55.560 --> 3:06:59.640 kind of drop up the papers and not a not 3:06:59.760 --> 3:07:03.400 to legally succede, which he's not allowed due to the 3:07:03.400 --> 3:07:06.960 state and agreement. Um, but he is. He has run 3:07:07.080 --> 3:07:08.959 up the papers to start pulling out of all the 3:07:09.160 --> 3:07:14.120 national level. So you know, Bosnia is the country republican 3:07:14.160 --> 3:07:18.280 subscrise and entity. The Federation is an entity, but both 3:07:18.280 --> 3:07:20.720 of them are accountable to the national sort of state 3:07:20.800 --> 3:07:24.920 level institutions. He's basically at this point, you know, been 3:07:25.000 --> 3:07:28.800 saying I'm gonna Republica subscribe deserve. We're leaving, like we're 3:07:29.200 --> 3:07:33.320 we're gonna form our own army. Yeah, we're gonna pull 3:07:33.360 --> 3:07:38.080 out all all the Bosnian state institutions. Um, we're gonna 3:07:38.160 --> 3:07:42.560 have serve only, you know, serve only, courts, serve only, lawyers, 3:07:42.560 --> 3:07:47.800 serve only, justices, serve only, I don't know, passport whatever, 3:07:48.040 --> 3:07:52.920 control serve basically anything that was at a national level, 3:07:52.959 --> 3:07:56.000 whether that's like a healthcare institution or like I don't know, 3:07:56.120 --> 3:08:01.240 procurement for supplies for the office. They're gonna have it 3:08:01.400 --> 3:08:05.720 as like serve only. Obviously, I think the danger is 3:08:06.120 --> 3:08:08.680 right there, serve only. Where have we heard that before? 3:08:08.720 --> 3:08:11.760 We heard that nineties And the biggest sort of red 3:08:11.800 --> 3:08:15.520 flag has really been this thing about them forming that 3:08:15.640 --> 3:08:19.080 a public Scott army, and they're not even talking about 3:08:19.160 --> 3:08:23.000 forming a new army. They he specifically stated the words 3:08:23.200 --> 3:08:28.240 reforming that republica Scott Army. Now, the Republican of Scott Army, 3:08:28.480 --> 3:08:32.520 you know, was led by Kota In. These are the 3:08:32.600 --> 3:08:36.520 same people that put girls as young as ten and 3:08:36.520 --> 3:08:40.800 twelve years old into rape camps, that killed babies as 3:08:40.840 --> 3:08:44.560 old as you know a few months that killed um 3:08:44.600 --> 3:08:48.240 you know, elderly women as old as a hundred years old. 3:08:48.600 --> 3:08:52.000 You know, these these were the guys that were going 3:08:52.120 --> 3:08:56.560 village to village, city to city, killing, torturing, bombing the 3:08:56.640 --> 3:08:58.800 hell out of Sorry al. These were the guys that 3:08:59.440 --> 3:09:03.400 you know, would throw like three thousand to four thousand 3:09:03.840 --> 3:09:08.720 mortar shells on sorrymo and snip it. I don't even 3:09:08.720 --> 3:09:11.520 know how many times, like tens of thousand times per day. 3:09:11.720 --> 3:09:15.640 It's just these are the bad guys basically. Um So, 3:09:15.680 --> 3:09:19.640 I think there is an alarm right now going in Bosnia, 3:09:19.680 --> 3:09:21.760 and it is the reason why so many of us 3:09:21.800 --> 3:09:26.280 are quite worried, quite frightened, because on one hand, he 3:09:26.400 --> 3:09:28.760 has threatened, he has made you know, Donic has made 3:09:28.760 --> 3:09:34.040 plenty of for us before. But on the other hand, 3:09:34.320 --> 3:09:39.320 in prior times, the international community has somewhat gotten involved. 3:09:39.480 --> 3:09:43.039 You know, the US has sanctioned him, the UK has 3:09:43.080 --> 3:09:46.280 scolded him, the EU has said, like, you gotta chill out, 3:09:46.280 --> 3:09:50.160 otherwise you know, Sorbia doesn't get into the EU. You know, 3:09:50.200 --> 3:09:53.959 there's there's always been some sort of I don't know, 3:09:54.120 --> 3:09:57.440 influence there, the o h r's influence as well, But 3:09:58.160 --> 3:10:04.519 in recent years, the international community has not stood by 3:10:04.680 --> 3:10:09.039 its responsibility to the Date and Agreement. I mean, here's 3:10:09.040 --> 3:10:13.920 the thing. They implemented this agreement. They made it so 3:10:14.000 --> 3:10:18.600 that we the Bosnians, have to abide by it, but 3:10:18.720 --> 3:10:21.320 they also have a responsibility to ensure that it is 3:10:21.360 --> 3:10:24.959 actually being upheld and that they're doing their job in 3:10:25.040 --> 3:10:28.200 importance with the international like with the Dating Agreement, so 3:10:28.800 --> 3:10:30.640 you know, the Date and Agreement was very kind of 3:10:30.640 --> 3:10:35.160 specific that it was one a temporary solution and to 3:10:35.360 --> 3:10:39.160 the international community was to work on finding a more 3:10:39.680 --> 3:10:44.160 permanent solution that will bring about you know, actual sort 3:10:44.160 --> 3:10:46.920 of reconciliation and justice and all of these things. But 3:10:46.959 --> 3:10:49.200 they didn't. They you know, they've left sort of bousing 3:10:49.240 --> 3:10:51.960 it to kind of uh live up on its own. 3:10:52.280 --> 3:10:56.000 Um and and now they're not really doing much. I mean, 3:10:56.280 --> 3:10:59.720 the EU, the US, they're doing their typical thing of 3:11:00.040 --> 3:11:05.879 only worded open letters UM and Dottic seems less afraid 3:11:05.959 --> 3:11:08.959 than ever before. He seems very brash. I mean, he 3:11:09.080 --> 3:11:11.960 is a fool and a half and an ultra nationalists, 3:11:12.000 --> 3:11:14.360 but right now I feel like he has so much 3:11:14.440 --> 3:11:17.120 confidence and I think he also knows that like the 3:11:17.240 --> 3:11:20.080 US and the EU have so many bigger problems to 3:11:20.120 --> 3:11:24.520 worry about rather than Bosnia, and so we're just out 3:11:24.520 --> 3:11:27.920 a priority so he can play around with it. And 3:11:27.959 --> 3:11:30.520 then we're also, you know, seeing like the Secretary of 3:11:30.560 --> 3:11:36.279 State Matthew Palmer hanging out with him. The day after 3:11:36.400 --> 3:11:39.400 this man openly stated on national television that he is 3:11:39.440 --> 3:11:44.240 reforming and they're being very cozy and very friendly and 3:11:44.280 --> 3:11:46.920 stuff like that. And here's the thing. I've never been 3:11:47.000 --> 3:11:51.560 really a big believer on the international community, because come on, 3:11:51.760 --> 3:11:55.560 like I have him, the experience speaks for itself. I've 3:11:55.640 --> 3:12:01.959 already lived lived their help and I'm like, no, thanks, 3:12:02.400 --> 3:12:06.320 please stay away. But I don't live in that world. 3:12:06.440 --> 3:12:08.280 I live in a world where, you know, I'm from 3:12:08.280 --> 3:12:13.120 a small country that is unfortunately very dependent on outsiders 3:12:13.240 --> 3:12:17.120 and on the international community. So while I would love 3:12:17.160 --> 3:12:19.959 to say, well, fuck the EU, fuck the US, we 3:12:20.040 --> 3:12:22.800 don't need them, the reality is that we do need them. 3:12:22.840 --> 3:12:26.400 We do need them to do their jobs. And because 3:12:26.480 --> 3:12:29.759 if they don't, I am really worried that the situation 3:12:29.959 --> 3:12:34.680 is going to continue to escalate further and further. And 3:12:35.560 --> 3:12:39.840 this appeasement of Dotty, especially in the last several years, 3:12:40.320 --> 3:12:44.600 has gone on so much that at this point, I 3:12:44.640 --> 3:12:47.959 think you have to like start to wonder like do 3:12:48.080 --> 3:12:52.000 these does the international community you know, even want peace 3:12:52.040 --> 3:12:55.360 in stability in Bosnia or did they benefit from our 3:12:55.400 --> 3:12:59.160 constant instability and what is their long term plan? But 3:12:59.240 --> 3:13:01.200 that's kind of where are at right now. I think 3:13:01.240 --> 3:13:05.920 there there's you know, there's the people in in Bosnian 3:13:06.040 --> 3:13:09.120 politics and activist circles right now who are calling on 3:13:09.400 --> 3:13:12.640 US leadership or calling on EU leadership, and there's a 3:13:12.680 --> 3:13:15.080 lot of oh, no, the EU sucks, the US will 3:13:15.080 --> 3:13:17.280 help us, the U s sucks, the EU will help us. 3:13:17.320 --> 3:13:20.000 Turkey that's gonna help us. No, Turkey sucks. There's a 3:13:20.000 --> 3:13:23.120 lot of like disagreement. Um. I think the reality is that, 3:13:23.200 --> 3:13:25.560 oh my god, does it suck that we are in 3:13:25.600 --> 3:13:29.560 this position where we have to rely on external sources 3:13:29.640 --> 3:13:33.600 because once again we are feeling alone. Once again, we're 3:13:33.640 --> 3:13:36.280 sort of being back into a corner and once again 3:13:36.320 --> 3:13:40.200 we're being threatened with a prospect of, you know, a 3:13:40.240 --> 3:13:43.160 new war. And I think the reality is the minute, 3:13:43.680 --> 3:13:47.040 the minute that he gives that green light for that 3:13:47.520 --> 3:13:51.320 the Republicans of Scott Army to be formed, there will 3:13:51.360 --> 3:13:56.880 be violence. We've seen what happened before. We cannot afford 3:13:57.040 --> 3:14:00.680 to even have one act of violence. We cannot board 3:14:00.720 --> 3:14:04.360 to have even one person injured, let alone die. Because 3:14:05.080 --> 3:14:09.280 these people in Bosnia, on all sides, have suffered so 3:14:09.400 --> 3:14:13.560 unbelievably much. They are exhausted, They are still bearing their 3:14:13.640 --> 3:14:17.040 loved once twenty six years later, they still haven't you know, 3:14:17.120 --> 3:14:20.320 found that peace. They're worried and scared for their future, 3:14:20.840 --> 3:14:24.160 and they deserves so much more, they really really do. 3:14:24.320 --> 3:14:30.400 So I think, you know, I'm I'm hoping and praying that. Um. 3:14:30.440 --> 3:14:33.440 You know, we obviously continue talking about this issue, and 3:14:33.680 --> 3:14:37.039 we try to pressure those people in power to you know, 3:14:37.120 --> 3:14:42.280 calm the situation down. But the reality is that this 3:14:42.600 --> 3:14:45.600 is going to be our future for as long as 3:14:45.680 --> 3:14:50.720 they next exists, and until the Bosnian constitution is completely 3:14:50.760 --> 3:14:55.360 reformed and dating is completely either thrown out or reformed 3:14:55.760 --> 3:15:00.240 to actually allow for a you know code actually all 3:15:00.680 --> 3:15:06.000 multi ethnic United Country that's not broken up across ethnic 3:15:06.200 --> 3:15:09.960 you know aligns, and it's not ethnically segregated, We're going 3:15:09.959 --> 3:15:13.440 to continue being in the situation. So yes, for right now, 3:15:13.480 --> 3:15:15.640 I think let's talk about this and let's kind of 3:15:15.640 --> 3:15:18.959 pressure those powerful people, but really a long term. It's 3:15:19.000 --> 3:15:21.640 time to start thinking about ending the Date and Agreement, 3:15:21.680 --> 3:15:25.680 and it's time to start thinking about actually building that 3:15:25.840 --> 3:15:31.000 you know, multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi religious country that 3:15:31.200 --> 3:15:34.400 we fought for. You know, you're saying like okay, like 3:15:34.400 --> 3:15:37.440 what what what is you know, what what is Europe 3:15:37.440 --> 3:15:41.280 actually wants out of this? And you know, I mean 3:15:41.280 --> 3:15:43.600 I think it's pretty clear, like okay, so you know it. 3:15:43.720 --> 3:15:45.760 The Day and Accords are like okay, we're just gonna 3:15:45.840 --> 3:15:49.280 give all of the ether nationalists like their own fief them. Right, 3:15:49.280 --> 3:15:51.200 It's like, okay, here, here's your award for the genocide. 3:15:51.200 --> 3:15:54.240 You get your like yeah, and I think you know, 3:15:54.280 --> 3:15:57.760 like that's that's that's that's that's a very classical you 3:15:57.760 --> 3:16:00.760 know that that that's what Europeans do, Right. It's like, yeah, 3:16:00.800 --> 3:16:02.680 they come in the sport of the nationalists and it's like, 3:16:02.800 --> 3:16:07.160 you know, they don't want this, like they don't actually want, 3:16:08.360 --> 3:16:14.520 like if a functioning, multi ethnic, multiracial society because you know, 3:16:14.640 --> 3:16:16.879 oh oh the horror weight hold on what if other 3:16:16.920 --> 3:16:19.600 people look at that and go, wait, why why do 3:16:19.680 --> 3:16:23.760 we have Like yeah, I think that I don't know, 3:16:24.200 --> 3:16:26.000 I think you see this both you know, back back 3:16:26.000 --> 3:16:28.039 and what they were originally doing in the nineties, and 3:16:28.240 --> 3:16:30.400 you know, they come in later and they're like, oh, hey, 3:16:30.440 --> 3:16:35.360 look we're heroes. We uh helped them do the genocide 3:16:35.400 --> 3:16:38.480 and then kind of sort of did something maybe later, 3:16:39.800 --> 3:16:42.360 And I think, like, yeah, I don't know, just the 3:16:42.360 --> 3:16:45.360 possibility of that happening again, the possibility of it's just 3:16:45.440 --> 3:16:48.320 being you know, this is like, oh, hey, we have Bostia. 3:16:48.400 --> 3:16:50.160 This this is where we do press tours for like 3:16:50.160 --> 3:16:53.000 why the American Army is good and like fun, anyone 3:16:53.040 --> 3:16:57.080 else who actually lives there is just I mean, like, 3:16:57.160 --> 3:17:00.600 come on, d're America, Like, let's be honest, scare Like, 3:17:00.640 --> 3:17:03.440 I'm not saying they're all powerful entity, but what I 3:17:03.480 --> 3:17:08.280 am saying is that if they really wanted to the 3:17:08.360 --> 3:17:11.080 people who are in power would not be in power, 3:17:11.400 --> 3:17:16.160 right Like, but these people, people like dotty, people like 3:17:16.240 --> 3:17:19.240 Dragon Chovich, who is the Croatian at the nationalist leader 3:17:19.280 --> 3:17:22.640 who is also by the way, directly involved in this mess. 3:17:22.720 --> 3:17:25.120 And and once again we're seeing that thing of the 3:17:25.240 --> 3:17:28.040 nineties of you know, Croatia and Serbia want to split 3:17:28.200 --> 3:17:32.480 Bosnia up and you know, break it for themselves. Basically, Um, 3:17:32.480 --> 3:17:35.360 that's you know, it's it's just now instead of Ryan 3:17:35.520 --> 3:17:40.440 Tujman and Looshevich, it's now Chovich and uh, you know, Dotty. 3:17:40.720 --> 3:17:42.600 I talk about Dottic a lot more because I think 3:17:42.600 --> 3:17:45.480 he's a more immediate threat. But it's important that we 3:17:45.600 --> 3:17:48.840 don't forget that Bosnia is also facing the Croatian threat 3:17:48.879 --> 3:17:52.360 as well. Um And you know, but but I think 3:17:52.400 --> 3:17:54.480 about it this way, like, I know for a fact 3:17:54.640 --> 3:17:59.280 that if these people did not benefit the system somehow, 3:17:59.560 --> 3:18:02.200 they would not actually be in power. But they do. 3:18:02.240 --> 3:18:05.640 They do benefit that and I think, you know, you know, 3:18:05.720 --> 3:18:11.640 Madain Albright called dot a breath of fresh air um 3:18:11.640 --> 3:18:14.880 in you know, the nineties when he came to power 3:18:15.240 --> 3:18:18.640 and then and now here we are, you know, um 3:18:18.800 --> 3:18:22.119 got its threatening more and threatening succession and talking about 3:18:22.240 --> 3:18:27.000 serve only you know, spaces and serve only armies and 3:18:27.040 --> 3:18:31.959 it's just it's exhaust thing. But yeah, it's it's it's 3:18:32.000 --> 3:18:34.520 also funny. It is funny when you think about it, 3:18:34.560 --> 3:18:40.119 because the reality is that it doesn't it never had 3:18:40.160 --> 3:18:42.320 to be like this, and it doesn't have to feel 3:18:42.360 --> 3:18:46.760 like this in the future either. But unfortunately it will 3:18:46.800 --> 3:18:50.160 continue to be like this because that's just you know, 3:18:50.200 --> 3:18:53.560 what the powerful want like what those actually who have 3:18:53.640 --> 3:18:55.959 some power want. And that's the thing that sucks because 3:18:55.959 --> 3:18:58.600 when you know, I feel like I'm starting to sound conspirator, 3:18:58.760 --> 3:19:01.520 but I'm not. Um. You know, when you when you 3:19:01.560 --> 3:19:07.240 think about like Europe overall and how they looked at Bosnia, 3:19:07.480 --> 3:19:11.560 I think for the last you know, hundred years, um 3:19:11.640 --> 3:19:15.480 and their policy towards Bosnia, it's really difficult for me 3:19:15.600 --> 3:19:18.720 to kind of be filled with any sort of confidence 3:19:18.800 --> 3:19:23.440 about what their plans are. You know. Yeah, I mean 3:19:23.800 --> 3:19:26.480 it's it's it's Europe in the United States, two countries 3:19:26.560 --> 3:19:29.880 that historically have never done anything bad, have never done 3:19:29.920 --> 3:19:37.520 any genocides, and have never yeah, just absolutely annihilated countries. Yeah, yeah, 3:19:37.560 --> 3:19:39.440 I mean, it's just, you know, they're the good guys. 3:19:39.480 --> 3:19:41.760 So like you said, you know, Bosnians, there are so 3:19:41.840 --> 3:19:45.160 much as like this press store for you know, these 3:19:45.160 --> 3:19:48.120 politicians to come and to talk about why we're such 3:19:48.160 --> 3:19:51.080 a great example of the peace process when we're really 3:19:51.080 --> 3:19:54.000 we're not, you know, And the thing is they'll you know, 3:19:54.040 --> 3:19:56.760 they'll come on and they'll say, well, while Dayton wasn't perfect, 3:19:57.200 --> 3:19:59.160 it was the best solution at the time, and it's 3:19:59.200 --> 3:20:04.400 like it was not you know, but but they have 3:20:04.560 --> 3:20:07.280 convinced that themselves that this was like a win for 3:20:08.280 --> 3:20:12.400 intervention and win for the international community. Now, don't get 3:20:12.400 --> 3:20:18.240 me wrong, I, alongside everyone I know, is extremely happy 3:20:18.280 --> 3:20:21.920 that the war ended and that the genocide ended. Um 3:20:21.959 --> 3:20:25.520 And I think until you're in that position of growing 3:20:25.600 --> 3:20:28.720 up in the midst of you know, all these bombs 3:20:28.760 --> 3:20:32.360 and murders and tortures all around you, and you know 3:20:32.440 --> 3:20:34.560 the only style you ever hear are the sounds of 3:20:34.560 --> 3:20:38.000 bombs and mortars falling and sniper shooting at you, you 3:20:38.120 --> 3:20:41.680 won't really know how it feels when that finally stops 3:20:41.680 --> 3:20:47.320 and when you have some peace, and how difficult um 3:20:47.360 --> 3:20:50.080 it can be to think about obviously any future sort 3:20:50.120 --> 3:20:53.160 of prospects of war. Um. And I think that's that 3:20:53.280 --> 3:20:56.800 also is a is a contributing factor to the overall 3:20:56.840 --> 3:21:01.480 instability of bossing it because our twenty six years now, 3:21:01.800 --> 3:21:05.959 our policy as a people but as a country as well, 3:21:06.080 --> 3:21:10.480 has been as long as there's no shooting, which is 3:21:10.520 --> 3:21:14.320 not a sound policy because you know, settling for the 3:21:14.320 --> 3:21:17.160 bare minimum is not helping any of us. Our youths 3:21:17.200 --> 3:21:22.920 are leaving in observed absurd amounts to Germany, to Austria, 3:21:23.000 --> 3:21:27.000 to the United States. People are struggling for for jobs, 3:21:27.040 --> 3:21:29.920 people are struggling to find food, you know, all of 3:21:29.959 --> 3:21:34.200 these things, um, on top of the threat of war 3:21:34.320 --> 3:21:37.480 and violence and conflicts. So it's just it's not a 3:21:37.560 --> 3:21:42.000 sound policy. And I'm just hoping, um, it will change 3:21:42.160 --> 3:21:44.959 eventually somehow. I mean, I'm going to keep doing my part, 3:21:45.000 --> 3:21:48.640 which is, you know, yelling and yelling at people in 3:21:48.879 --> 3:21:52.560 in there on Twitter and in person and pressuring them 3:21:52.600 --> 3:21:54.959 to do the right thing and to obviously talk about this. 3:21:55.040 --> 3:21:58.240 But um, yeah, I just feel like we have such 3:21:58.280 --> 3:22:03.560 a long, long, long, long road ahead of us, and um, 3:22:03.600 --> 3:22:07.840 you know, peace is a process. It's a process. So 3:22:07.959 --> 3:22:12.720 I think where just at the beginning of that process. Yeah, 3:22:13.200 --> 3:22:16.360 so much more to do, I think I think that's 3:22:16.360 --> 3:22:23.840 a good place to end on with just the realization that, yeah, 3:22:23.840 --> 3:22:26.920 I mean, if if, if there's no fundamental change in 3:22:27.080 --> 3:22:30.320 the structures and the forces and in the politics that 3:22:30.760 --> 3:22:34.640 created a worthy created genocide, like it's going to happen again. Yeah, 3:22:34.920 --> 3:22:37.600 and so you you you have to actually change it. 3:22:37.640 --> 3:22:39.560 You can't just sort of put this band aid on 3:22:39.600 --> 3:22:41.320 it and put it in stasis and just leave all 3:22:41.360 --> 3:22:44.160 the structures intact. You have to now you have to 3:22:44.200 --> 3:22:49.039 knock them over before you can build something else. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, 3:22:49.440 --> 3:22:52.560 unnessa think thank you so much for talking with me. Um, 3:22:52.640 --> 3:22:55.720 where can people find you? And what books do you 3:22:55.720 --> 3:22:58.160 want to read? Because as as as we've said over 3:22:58.200 --> 3:23:00.440 and over Agatten on this podcast, do not get your 3:23:00.440 --> 3:23:04.480 information from podcast. Actually read books you think you need 3:23:04.520 --> 3:23:08.039 what you need to do. Um, yeah, well if you Obviously, 3:23:08.080 --> 3:23:10.000 I know our audience can't se yet, but here's my 3:23:10.080 --> 3:23:16.360 little one of my little selections of books on Bosnia. Um. Obviously, 3:23:16.400 --> 3:23:19.400 people can find me on Twitter. Um, you know, type 3:23:19.480 --> 3:23:22.080 in my name a r n E s A. But 3:23:22.240 --> 3:23:26.560 my at is at ore are are r an E 3:23:26.800 --> 3:23:30.040 s s A. Yeah, Twitter is probably the best place. 3:23:30.080 --> 3:23:32.680 But also I have a book out so if people 3:23:32.680 --> 3:23:35.840 want to read it. It is about the Bosnian genocide UM, 3:23:35.920 --> 3:23:38.920 and it is based on real life experiences of my 3:23:39.040 --> 3:23:43.080 family and friends. It's called Letters from Diaspora. It's more 3:23:43.160 --> 3:23:48.600 so on the emotional UM side of things. But if 3:23:48.640 --> 3:23:53.200 you want to learn about the conflict from a leftist perspective, 3:23:53.440 --> 3:23:57.400 I always recommend UM and I don't know where it's 3:23:57.440 --> 3:24:02.560 going there, but I always recommend UM Bosnia Kosova and 3:24:03.120 --> 3:24:11.039 Yugoslavia by Mike Kindadigus. Um. It's the Marxist perspective on 3:24:11.520 --> 3:24:17.680 the breakup of Yugoslavia. UM. Additionally, I have a pdf 3:24:18.480 --> 3:24:22.480 on my Twitter of tons of books. So if you 3:24:22.520 --> 3:24:26.119 want to learn more about Yugoslavia, about Islam and the Balkans, 3:24:26.280 --> 3:24:29.920 about the history of Bosnia, about the war, genocide, feel 3:24:29.959 --> 3:24:32.200 free to shoot me a d M. I have a 3:24:32.400 --> 3:24:36.560 handy little guy that I hand out constantly. Two people. UM. 3:24:36.600 --> 3:24:38.480 And there's also a list of books on like my 3:24:38.560 --> 3:24:40.760 website and stuff like that. Yeah, I think I can 3:24:40.800 --> 3:24:42.120 post it. We can put a link to it in 3:24:42.160 --> 3:24:44.080 the description. I've I've read some stuff on there. It's 3:24:44.160 --> 3:24:47.840 very good. You should read it all. Thanks. I pry 3:24:47.920 --> 3:24:55.680 myself on really good reading list depending on topic. Oh yeah, yeah, 3:24:55.760 --> 3:25:00.240 well Vanessa, thank you again. And yeah, this this has 3:25:00.280 --> 3:25:02.680 when it could happen here find us that it could 3:25:02.959 --> 3:25:05.920 happen here pod on Twitter, Instagram. The rest of the 3:25:05.959 --> 3:25:08.240 show is that we do are You can find it 3:25:08.240 --> 3:25:12.120 at the cool Zone on the same places and yeah, 3:25:12.120 --> 3:25:16.080 oh boy, genocide bad. Hope there's no more work to 3:25:16.160 --> 3:25:32.160 stop them. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes 3:25:32.320 --> 3:25:34.800 every week from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:25:35.560 --> 3:25:37.920 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:25:38.160 --> 3:25:40.840 For more podcasts from cool zone Media, visit our website 3:25:40.840 --> 3:25:42.959 cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 3:25:43.000 --> 3:25:45.560 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3:25:45.600 --> 3:25:48.360 listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 3:25:48.400 --> 3:25:51.400 Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com 3:25:51.440 --> 3:25:53.359 slash sources. Thanks for listening.