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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome to it happens sometimes

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Speaker 1: the podcast where it's happened. Shit, Um, Garrison, Chris, somebody, somebody,

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Speaker 1: somebody picked this up. This is on you. Anybody anybody

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Speaker 1: got help you out of this one? Okay, Well, you

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Speaker 1: know what podcasts this is. You've been listening, presumably for months,

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Speaker 1: or this is your first time listening. If so, I've

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Speaker 1: probably lost you already with that Bush League introduction. Jesus

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Speaker 1: christ Um, I'm Robert Evans. This is a show about

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Speaker 1: how things fall apart and how to maybe stop them

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Speaker 1: from falling up art as much. And today we're talking

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Speaker 1: to some people who were in kind of the best

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Speaker 1: case scenario situation for having a bunch of authoritarians try

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Speaker 1: to uh dominate your country, by which I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: talking to some Chilean activists who who who won? Um,

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Speaker 1: inasmuch as it's it's possible to win in the world. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty exciting situation. UM happening there. I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to introduce people to like what's been going on. But

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Speaker 1: first I want to introduce our guests for today. UM,

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Speaker 1: y'all wanna you'll wanna say hello. Hello. My name is

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Speaker 1: Jeremiah from the United States. I've lived in Chile for

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Speaker 1: the last ten years. And Stephanie Good I'm a Jillian

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Speaker 1: and I'm laving here with with my my husband. And Hi,

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Speaker 1: I'm Nicholas. Um, I'm m I have been living here

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Speaker 1: for my whole life. Yeah. So we started a small

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Speaker 1: group called Nitos to do some activism to try to

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Speaker 1: get out the vote for the plelcito, to try to

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Speaker 1: uh last year to get the constitution approved to be

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Speaker 1: voted on and and it was successful. So we are

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Speaker 1: proud of the small bit of work that we did

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Speaker 1: to help that happen. And so today the constitution is

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Speaker 1: being written and it's a very exciting time. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: I want to let's pull back a little bit because

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Speaker 1: the last time we we talked about UM, Chile on

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Speaker 1: behind the bastards in two thousand nineteen, when UM a

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Speaker 1: protest that started as some I think it's fair to

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Speaker 1: say zoomers protesting a fair increase by like jumping fares

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Speaker 1: at the at the underground the subway. UM was met

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Speaker 1: with police doing police stuff, which was met with people

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Speaker 1: taking to the streets and very significant numbers, which is

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Speaker 1: the thing that by now a lot more people are

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Speaker 1: experienced with. But unlike kind of what happened in my country,

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Speaker 1: you did it. You made him blink, and and that's

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Speaker 1: what the plebiscite is, right, Like the there was an

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Speaker 1: agreement made to give because Chili was still, if I'm

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Speaker 1: not mistaken, governed under the same constitution that that Pinochet

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Speaker 1: had had, right UM, and Pinochet famously not a great guy. UM,

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Speaker 1: So I wonder if you might give us kind of

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Speaker 1: an overview of y'all's experience during that time, from like

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Speaker 1: the start of the protests to oh ship we might

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Speaker 1: actually get to change things at a pretty fundamental level

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Speaker 1: in our country. UM. Yeah. So it was incredible time

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Speaker 1: about exactly two years ago, so just the of October

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Speaker 1: was just a two year anniversary. And UM, as you said,

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Speaker 1: it all started with UM literal high schoolers, sixteen year

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Speaker 1: olds who are protesting a thirty paceo increase, which is,

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Speaker 1: you know, like increase in the metro. But we of

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Speaker 1: course have one of the most expensive metros in the

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Speaker 1: world and a very low um uh minimum wage here.

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Speaker 1: And so as you said, they went out there and

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Speaker 1: started to jump the turnstiles, but in massive groups, hundreds

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Speaker 1: of them going to the metro together and all jumping together.

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Speaker 1: And in response, the government ended up closing the metros.

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Speaker 1: And so it was this Friday night, UM, and we

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Speaker 1: were having dinner and uh, suddenly the metros were all

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Speaker 1: closed and everyone had to just walk home from work

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Speaker 1: or dinner or where they were. And that was kind

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Speaker 1: of the beginning of everything. And it was almost like

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Speaker 1: the government brought it on themselves because suddenly there were

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Speaker 1: thousands of people in the streets just because they had

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Speaker 1: no other way to get home and from there, Uh,

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Speaker 1: they there were protests and UM the protests were met

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Speaker 1: with extreme police oppression and water cannons and tear gas

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Speaker 1: and all of that, and UM eventually it led to

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Speaker 1: one march which had over a million people throughout Chile

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Speaker 1: marching and UM a series of marches and protests basically

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Speaker 1: every week for months. Um, and finally, uh, it came

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Speaker 1: down to uh they announced that there would be this

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Speaker 1: pleblist site and it was a vote, um, yes or

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Speaker 1: no to create a new constitution, because yes, Chile is

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Speaker 1: still There were some reforms in the early two thousands

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Speaker 1: to the constitution, but um still U we live under

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Speaker 1: the constitution written by Hime Gustman, Um kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: Cha's right hand man, and we happen to live. Nico

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Speaker 1: is our good friend and also our next door neighbor,

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Speaker 1: and we live about four blocks from the Plaza um

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Speaker 1: formerly Plaza Italia. Now the protesters have deemed it Plaza

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Speaker 1: Dignity Dad, and so we've been just in the middle

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Speaker 1: of it. And uh, for for a couple of months,

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Speaker 1: our our whole neighborhood was like a war zone and uh,

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Speaker 1: just really crazy protests every single day and and tear

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Speaker 1: gas and all of that, and it was it was

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Speaker 1: really intense for a while, and uh it still is.

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Speaker 1: You know. Um last Friday, Uh, we you know, were

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Speaker 1: met with tear gas and water cannons again. So it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's even though the current the constitution is being

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Speaker 1: written again, and the plaslist site was a year ago,

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Speaker 1: but the police are still out there being bastards. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm curious what each of you kind of sees is

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Speaker 1: the moment when or if you because maybe I was

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Speaker 1: going too optimistic, right, Like I guess I'm wondering, do

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Speaker 1: you think that a corner has been turned? And and

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Speaker 1: if so, what was kind of the moment each of

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Speaker 1: you felt like, oh my god, we might actually this

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Speaker 1: isn't just gonna be like showing up to get the

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Speaker 1: ship kicked out of us. We were going to get

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Speaker 1: somewhat least of what we're fighting for. Wait, technically, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I think that like that particular moment was

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Speaker 1: when we finally went to the elections to who you

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Speaker 1: call the referendum for the for this new constitution. Um,

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Speaker 1: we were kind of skeptic about the the percentage of

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Speaker 1: people who approved this new constitution because a few months

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Speaker 1: ago or a few weeks before this referendum, we have

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Speaker 1: like continuing polls. We had the polls and there were

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Speaker 1: a kind of fifty, So we're kind of skeptic about

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Speaker 1: are we gonna have any constitution or not? And that

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Speaker 1: the same I mean the process very quick. So after

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Speaker 1: I know, the this thing close at six pm and

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Speaker 1: then you have the results like three hours later. So

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Speaker 1: on the same day, we're having the results and it

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Speaker 1: was like eighty against twenties. So it was like kind

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Speaker 1: of shocking. I mean, we I think that nobody was

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Speaker 1: expecting to have this kind of eighty percent of the

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Speaker 1: people until they were I went to throw to the

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Speaker 1: being the you know, chech constitution. So it was kind

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Speaker 1: of like, I don't know, I will say, like the

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Speaker 1: best moment. Yeah, there's this. There's an American, a deceased

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Speaker 1: American um sociologist who who wrote an essay that I

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Speaker 1: find quite influential called the Shock of Victory, and it's

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Speaker 1: about how activists often failed to take advance age of

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Speaker 1: of their momentum, like because they're kind of surprised at

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Speaker 1: the success early on, and then they don't properly take

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Speaker 1: advantage of what they have when they have it, and

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Speaker 1: and you know, progress gets turned back, which I think

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Speaker 1: we've seen happen in the United States in the wake

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Speaker 1: of of what happened here last summer. Why do you

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Speaker 1: think that that hasn't happened in Chile? What do you

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Speaker 1: think it is that that that enabled UM, you you

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Speaker 1: all to actually keep the pressure on and and take

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Speaker 1: advantage of that that moment in time, which which never

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Speaker 1: I guess that's what I'm impressed with the most, is

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Speaker 1: that you y'all did manage to make that momentum work

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Speaker 1: for you rather than kind of letting it pull you

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Speaker 1: off balance. And I guess I'm just trying to get

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Speaker 1: a handle on on how UM. I guess for me,

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Speaker 1: what I think it's lost a lot in the conversation

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Speaker 1: is UM the premier linear, so the first line of defense.

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Speaker 1: And so you have UM a bunch of young people, anarchists,

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Speaker 1: you know, just crazy young people who went out there

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Speaker 1: to fight with the cops every single day, and it

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Speaker 1: was really impressive and a lot of times we uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I feel like they don't get the

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Speaker 1: credit they deserve because you know, they're the delintements and

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Speaker 1: that you know, we talked a lot about the big

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Speaker 1: marches when there was a million people in the street

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Speaker 1: and and obviously, like Nico said, winning the vote by

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Speaker 1: sevent showed that it was something that everyone in Chile wanted.

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Speaker 1: But it never would have happened if it weren't for

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Speaker 1: the this small group of of fighters who were there

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Speaker 1: every single day, facing tear gas and water cannons and

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Speaker 1: police beating them up with you know, throwing rocks and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. So I think that's the main thing.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like once a month or even once a week.

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Speaker 1: It was every single day, and they were there on

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Speaker 1: the front line, and it none of this would be

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Speaker 1: possible without them. That's fascinating to me because obviously things

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Speaker 1: like that, groups like that existed here, like in Portland,

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Speaker 1: went every night for not as long, but for not

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Speaker 1: an insignificant amount of time, and it was those same

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Speaker 1: It was a lot of these kind of young anarchists,

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Speaker 1: frontliners who were willing to go toe to the toe

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Speaker 1: with the cops every night. But you didn't have you

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Speaker 1: didn't have that kind of larger, more moderate populace backing

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Speaker 1: them up. And I guess one of the things I'm

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Speaker 1: curious about is what was kind of the you mentioned

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Speaker 1: you don't think they get the credit they deserve. Was

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Speaker 1: there a broad attitude that like, these people are the

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Speaker 1: ones going face to face with the cops, so that

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Speaker 1: those of us, you know, people who are older, people

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Speaker 1: who aren't And it's going to ship people who can't

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Speaker 1: physically take as much abuse can still show up or

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Speaker 1: was it. I'm kind of curious how how those people

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Speaker 1: represented what they were doing and how it how it

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Speaker 1: was seen by most of kind of the more moderate

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Speaker 1: people who still supported change around you, because that that

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Speaker 1: dynamic exists in any mass protest movement, and it worked

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Speaker 1: where you are, and I'm trying to get a handle

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Speaker 1: on maybe how it was different than what I saw

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Speaker 1: in Portland. Uh So now a lot of them are

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Speaker 1: in Yo and or without one eye. So it's, uh,

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Speaker 1: it's really terrible because we have all these new beautiful

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Speaker 1: process but we are without really completely democracy with liberty

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Speaker 1: with the for this guy, or or democracy for all

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Speaker 1: this um person that loose eyes or uh yeah and

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Speaker 1: everyone that was injured. Um So, yeah, a lot of

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Speaker 1: protests nowadays. Actually, I think today right now there's a

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Speaker 1: protest going on to free the political prisoners. Um and

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Speaker 1: uh but yeah, I mean I think they're even among

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously of the country voted for the new constitution,

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Speaker 1: so there's a lot of different points of view there.

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Speaker 1: But but yeah, there was division even among the left.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people said, you know, this is not

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Speaker 1: the form of this is not the way to protest,

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Speaker 1: and we should not be violent and you know, burning

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Speaker 1: things and um. But but there was a lot, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you saw a lot of the opposite where people were

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Speaker 1: were saying, just as you said, like those out there

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Speaker 1: on the front line are the reason that the older

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Speaker 1: people and others can come out and feel safer to

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Speaker 1: protest because the premiery LINEA is kind of taking the

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Speaker 1: brunt of the violence from the police, and that allows

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Speaker 1: the the older people and those who are are less

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Speaker 1: confrontational to be out there in protest. So for me,

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Speaker 1: some of some of the most inspiring signs I remember

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Speaker 1: seeing are like folks that are eighty years old and

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Speaker 1: they have signs that say, you know, gracias ala primary LINEA.

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Speaker 1: You know, like thank you to the front liners who

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Speaker 1: who are taking that violence so that they are able

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Speaker 1: the others to to protest um in a more peaceful way.

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Speaker 1: That's such a fascinating situation to me that you've got

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Speaker 1: You've got these these more radical front liners who were,

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Speaker 1: as you say, critical in allowing this this really groundbreaking

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Speaker 1: change to occur in your society. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: things haven't changed enough that number one. The cops who

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Speaker 1: beat the ship out of them, I'm guessing are still

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Speaker 1: largely employed. Um and and a bunch of them are

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Speaker 1: in jail. I'm do you have much hope that at

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Speaker 1: the very least there will be something to like get

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Speaker 1: these people out or is it is that maybe a bridge?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know your country obviously, Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm curious, like, do you feel like there's

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Speaker 1: much hope in pushing for that, because it seems like,

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Speaker 1: you know, those people need to be free. I mean,

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Speaker 1: most of these guys who are in prison, they have

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Speaker 1: spent like, oh no, like twelve months in prison without

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Speaker 1: any evidence, so only the world of the cops against them.

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Speaker 1: So after I know, like thirteen months for ten months,

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Speaker 1: they will finally get released because they have they have

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Speaker 1: no evidence, or they could they may find that the

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Speaker 1: police they made up all the evidence, so they they

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Speaker 1: finally go out. But I mean, you spend like almost

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Speaker 1: a year in prison, that's me. It's clearly like political.

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Speaker 1: I mean you're a political prisoner, like they got they

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Speaker 1: got you in prison with no evidence, without any profit process.

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Speaker 1: They keep you in prison for a year, and who's

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Speaker 1: gonna pay for that. I mean, you lost a year. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like we're talking so far about the sacrifice is made here.

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Speaker 1: What do you think with this new constitution, you and

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Speaker 1: your your your fellow Chileans, what are you gonna get? Like?

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Speaker 1: How what are the changes that that are seemed to

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Speaker 1: be most concrete and the ones that you think are

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Speaker 1: most important? Um. I think already it's been groundbreaking. I

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Speaker 1: believe it's the only constitution ever to be written by

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Speaker 1: a plurality of women and and also to have a

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Speaker 1: representation from the indigenous people's and uh so it's already

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Speaker 1: been very um inspiring and groundbreaking. Um. The President of

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Speaker 1: the Constitutional Convention is a very inspiring um Mapuche leader woman. UM.

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Speaker 1: And the good thing is that the right um it

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Speaker 1: represents less in one third of the Constitutional Convention, so

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Speaker 1: they don't have the power to block um anything uh

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Speaker 1: as far as only by the right, So we will see.

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Speaker 1: But they literally just started writing the constitution last week.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's still but that's I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: that's a significant Is there a kind of a broad

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Speaker 1: agreement that one of the things that needed to happen

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Speaker 1: here was a redress of grievances between the indigenous people, UM,

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Speaker 1: and the and the state because it it sounds like

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Speaker 1: that's a significant chunk of what's what's been already agreed upon.

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Speaker 1: Just but like how this is coming together? Yeah so,

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Speaker 1: uh well Nicoka probably tell a lot more about this

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Speaker 1: than I could. But Um, there's a big deal with

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Speaker 1: the United with the indigenous people in the South and

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Speaker 1: the government UM basically waging war against the indigenous people. Actually,

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Speaker 1: uh two weeks ago, Nia the current right wing president

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Speaker 1: UM declared a state of emergency in the South and

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Speaker 1: he just extended it for fifteen more days. So we

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Speaker 1: have the military in the south, UM, and they are

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Speaker 1: you know, with the tanks and attaching attacking the the

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Speaker 1: Mapuche and other indigenous people there. And uh so yeah,

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Speaker 1: a big aspect of Chile right now is the the

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Speaker 1: the fight between and and the oppression of the government

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Speaker 1: against the native people. And and it's a cultural thing too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's really heavy everyone. Most people here

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Speaker 1: in Chile are are mixed, you know, between the the

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Speaker 1: natives and and the white men and everything, and you

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Speaker 1: know the Europeans, UM, but the Mapuche and the other

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Speaker 1: indigenous groups have really not UM received a lot of

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Speaker 1: respect in the last thirty years and and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a big aspect. Yeah, I will say, like for me,

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Speaker 1: it's very inspiring to have like the president of this

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Speaker 1: new Constitution to be uh I'm a picture woman, so

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Speaker 1: um yeah, I mean I guess that the most important thing,

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Speaker 1: like the thing that this Indigenous people want to claim

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Speaker 1: is their land. I mean land for them is the

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Speaker 1: most important thing. And that's what the government I'm only

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Speaker 1: for the last three hundred years they have been taken

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Speaker 1: from to them. Um, they are now like trying to

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Speaker 1: claim again their their their space. So I mean, let's

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Speaker 1: cape that this new constitution will bring them back their land, um,

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Speaker 1: the respect that they deserve. Now, there's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of discussion about this, this new constitution as I think

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Speaker 1: the term used as an ecological constitution um, and it

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Speaker 1: it's the necessity of it addressing a lot of the

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Speaker 1: climate not just climate change, but like a lot of

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Speaker 1: the things caused by climate change, like unequal access to water. Um.

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Speaker 1: There's been discussion. I think Ezio Coasta of of the

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Speaker 1: f I m A and GEO has has is arguing

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Speaker 1: currently that the Constitution needs to enshrine a human right

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Speaker 1: to water and recognize it as a common good. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's obviously again they're writing it this week, so it's

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Speaker 1: kind of unclear if that's going to happen. Um. But

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm wondering kind of what you what y'all think

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Speaker 1: it's actually because as you've talked about, you know, with

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Speaker 1: the protests ongoing, with the military being deployed in the South,

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Speaker 1: this is not a finished fight. Um, it's just a

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Speaker 1: fight that a lot of progress has been made on.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is reasonable to expect from this

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Speaker 1: new constitution in terms of of of climate change, in

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Speaker 1: terms of ecological justice. Also, I think the right of

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Speaker 1: the of water. So water is privatized here, so chileans

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Speaker 1: here and ago we have to pay a Spanish company

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Speaker 1: too for our water. Sure. Um, I would say, like

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Speaker 1: the economy in this country is based on like structivism,

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Speaker 1: So you have like the most productive thing is mining,

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Speaker 1: and then you have like the forest three and all

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Speaker 1: these things, like they have an enormous impact on the

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Speaker 1: environment and the people until I mean the people who

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Speaker 1: live right next to these kind of things, they don't

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Speaker 1: get anything from them. I mean, the poorest places are

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Speaker 1: like right next to the first three right next to

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Speaker 1: the mining. So it's kind of like we're creating a

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Speaker 1: lot of income from these things, but we're not getting

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Speaker 1: anything from them and all. I mean also, it's not

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Speaker 1: like a thing like let's get everything back to the state,

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Speaker 1: I mean to the state, because it's it's more than that.

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Speaker 1: It's just like like, um, ecological quality equity. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not saying we should take all of the private

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Speaker 1: water and give it to the state as much as

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Speaker 1: it's saying everyone who lives here has a has a

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Speaker 1: personal right to enough water to survive. Yeah. So you

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Speaker 1: have pounds where small little towns and they don't have

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Speaker 1: any water to drink because all of their water is

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Speaker 1: to the going to the farm owned by Nessley to

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Speaker 1: make you know, to grow avocados to sell to Europe

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Speaker 1: and the United States. So um, yeah, it's it's uh,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a pretty crazy thing. One of the things

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Speaker 1: that's most interesting to me about your situation is you

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Speaker 1: you are in a place where not entirely similar dissimilar

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Speaker 1: from the United States. You have a police in a

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Speaker 1: military that are heavily dominated by by right wing ideology. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: like the United States is partly responsible for that in

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Speaker 1: your case, we we funded it for a very very

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Speaker 1: long time. Um and uh, and so it's still an

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Speaker 1: ongoing fight. But at the same time, clearly the people

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Speaker 1: are unhappy enough with that situation and hold like that

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Speaker 1: they were able to make they were able to force

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Speaker 1: the folks with with guns to um, to recognize that

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Speaker 1: they can't hold on to everything that they wanted to

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Speaker 1: hold onto. And I I guess, I'm what, how can

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Speaker 1: we do that? Um, I'm I'm very impressed by like,

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Speaker 1: and you know, watching from the sidelines, I was just

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Speaker 1: so happy to see this not go where I think

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Speaker 1: we were all scared it might go, you know, in

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Speaker 1: either the direction with like Syria, where it turns into

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Speaker 1: this horrible blood bath, or where everything gets crushed you

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Speaker 1: know it. And and I I'm wondering, like why you

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Speaker 1: think on a on a broader scale, what do you

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Speaker 1: think was responsible for those people with access to the

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Speaker 1: deciding we can't hold onto this. Like, Yeah, I'm just

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Speaker 1: I'm so intensely curious about that because it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: important for a lot of people and a lot of

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Speaker 1: other parts of the world. Yeah, I don't know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it was just the protests and the daily

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Speaker 1: protests and and just getting out the keeping the pressure on.

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Speaker 1: And at some point, you know, it's like, hey, this

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Speaker 1: is not good for the economy, you know, like so

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Speaker 1: all of the rich people, um, and you know, the

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Speaker 1: ten families that are in control of you know, sixty

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Speaker 1: or seventy percent of the wealth of the country. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they at some point had to recognize that this

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Speaker 1: was something that that you know, had reached its boiling

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Speaker 1: point and and that they could no longer respond with

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Speaker 1: just force because they tried it and it didn't work

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Speaker 1: for months and it was just months and months of

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Speaker 1: protests and um and uh. And obviously that caused a

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Speaker 1: hit to the economy, and that caused a hit to

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Speaker 1: the wallets of of the ultra rich. And so at

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Speaker 1: some point they realized that they had no other move

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Speaker 1: to play than to accept it in some way and uh,

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Speaker 1: and that's how we got, you know, this new constitution

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Speaker 1: that is being written. One thing I was interested about

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Speaker 1: is the geography of the protest, because I know Chili

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Speaker 1: very urban population and also it was is it like

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Speaker 1: it's like a quarter of the population or something lives

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Speaker 1: in Santiago, like in in that area, and I'm yeah,

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Speaker 1: so sorry. I just want to note, if I'm not mistaken,

403
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Speaker 1: there were only five. You have kind of communes instead

404
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Speaker 1: of states is what they're called. Um, like ten voted

405
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Speaker 1: in favor of the referendum and only five voted against it.

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Speaker 1: If I'm not mistaken, Well, communes are within cities, like

407
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Speaker 1: different commune. It's like boroughs in New York, but we

408
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: have different regions instead of states. And um, and I

409
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: think they all voted. They might be like seven. But

410
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Speaker 1: what you might be thinking of, um of yeah, Robert,

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Speaker 1: you might be thinking of communes in Santiago. Where Santiago

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Speaker 1: is very Um. So it's all on the Rio Mapocho,

413
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Speaker 1: the river which goes east to west across the city

414
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Speaker 1: and basically you have this like very rich part on

415
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Speaker 1: the east and up into the hills and um, and

416
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Speaker 1: then it gets poorer and poorer as you go to

417
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Speaker 1: the west. And UM. Yeah for the vote for the constitution, Um,

418
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Speaker 1: it was everyone voted for the constitution except for these communes,

419
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Speaker 1: these ultra rich in the east. Wow. Amazing saying, Okay,

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Speaker 1: thing something I was curious about this was so when

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Speaker 1: when the protests were going on, Um, because you know,

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Speaker 1: Chile's had like huge protests before, I mean even the

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Speaker 1: last decade or what I was interested stid also with

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Speaker 1: this time is like, well, hey, what do you think

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Speaker 1: it is different about this than say like two thousand

426
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: and eleven ChIL wasn't thirteen? And then be in terms

427
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Speaker 1: of like the geographic breakdown of where people are and

428
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: where they're going? Is it that you know? So so

429
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Speaker 1: you have this, you have this classifying the city were

430
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Speaker 1: the working class districts, like we're people staying there in

431
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: those grastructure where they like moving from those places like

432
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: to protest inside of the richer urban areas. I would

433
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: say like, I mean, yeah, we have like many protests

434
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: in the best but there were more kind of like

435
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, like students protests, and then you have

436
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: like you know, like university protests. But when we have

437
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: like the protest like that, the one we have on

438
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 1: Todasa nineteen is like something that unites everyone. I mean

439
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: you don't have to be a students, you don't have

440
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: to go to university to protest. I mean it's something

441
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: that it's affecting everyone. I mean, the fairs of the metro,

442
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: they affect everything on the in the quality in the

443
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: country affects everyone. So um, I mean that. I guess

444
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: that's that's the thing that make this protests of the

445
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: Totasa nineteen unique in this term. Yeah, and I think

446
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: it was actually a problem when all the protests were happening.

447
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: A lot of people were saying, we can't keep going

448
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: to the plaza. You know, the cops are just going

449
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: to wait for us in the plaza, and you know

450
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: it's going to be a ship show, and we need

451
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: to you know, protest all over And there were protests

452
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: across Chile and every single major city. UM but I

453
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: will say the majority of the protests have been UM

454
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: here in the plaza and close to Lamoneta, where the

455
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: presidential place and UM but some of the most memoriab

456
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: protests and and the Coast Nara Center, the tallest building

457
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: in Latin America, which is a mall and a monument

458
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: to this idea that Pinera has of Um, the way

459
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,959
Speaker 1: of Chile being an oasis in South America. We're not

460
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: like other countries were. We're like the United States, you know,

461
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: where this capitalism capitalists oasis and exactly. Um but but yeah,

462
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,719
Speaker 1: so some of the most memoriable protests. They weren't super common,

463
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: but we're exactly that where the people said, you know what,

464
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: we're not going to the Plaza, We're going to coast

465
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: to Nara Center, or we're going to Vista Kora, We're

466
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: going to where the millionaires live, where they work. And

467
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: um that those were really powerful. And so that's when

468
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: you started to see like all of those banks and

469
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: malls and just blocks and blocks of what the rich

470
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: folk like to call Sanhattan, you know, Santiago Manhattan, the

471
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: skyscraper part of the city, and it was just all

472
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: boarded up, you know. Um because there there were definitely

473
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks where the protests went that way

474
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: and and and yeah, it was inspiring. What I keep

475
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: coming back to when I look about like why it worked.

476
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: It wasn't because the front liners just kept the pressure up,

477
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: because the front liners did in a lot of places here,

478
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: the front liners stayed out well after everyone else stopped

479
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: coming out. It's that the population kept up the pressure.

480
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: Like the there were like Chile as a as a

481
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: as a nation, as a as a people kept up

482
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: the pressure in in a in a pretty significant way, um,

483
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: as opposed to kind of fading back after the first

484
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, and I mean it, I think I'm

485
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: sure the question of why it happened has a lot

486
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: to do with, like you said, inequality, you know, things

487
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: that have been going on for decades. It's it's a

488
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: it's a complex situation, but it does seem like that's

489
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: one of the big takeaways that if you can you

490
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: can secure even in even in a pretty terrifying situation,

491
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: a lot of concessions, a lot of of what you need.

492
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: But but people have to have to keep putting themselves

493
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: out there. Yeah. Absolutely, I would say it's a couple

494
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: of things. Um. One is um as you mentioned. I

495
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: think it's like the culture of protests here, you know,

496
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: especially in the last ten years, like um with the

497
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: revolution Penguin and Milances inven Um, you know, and there

498
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: are in and the feminist protests and um. So it's

499
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: it's not something that just happened two years ago. It's

500
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: the last decade or two has has been the people,

501
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: especially the young people, going out there and protesting. And

502
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: that's that's one thing that's inspiring about Boris the candidate

503
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: for president. The election is next month, and so the

504
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,479
Speaker 1: left wing candidate Boridge, and he came out of that movement.

505
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: He was a student protester and a leader of the

506
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: student movement. And so I think it's like it grew

507
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: out of that, it grew out of kids in high

508
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: school saying this is just what we do. This is normal.

509
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: We go out there and protest when when ship happens.

510
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: And and the other thing is, yeah, you know, we

511
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: always say here in Chile after the protests started, Um,

512
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: it's not thirty pace those it's thirty years, you know,

513
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: thirty years of neoliberalism, of this revolving door of center

514
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: right and center left and and just continuing on with

515
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: the um economic oppression. And the other thing I feel

516
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: like people don't understand is that, uh, you know, people

517
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: either think Chile is like the United States or they

518
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: think it's like Peru or something, you know, and it's

519
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: really neither. In Chile, the minimum wage is half of

520
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: what the United States is, which is already terrible. But um,

521
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: the cost of living here is almost the same as

522
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: you guys in Portland. I mean, not the housing probably,

523
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: but like you know, yeah, yeah, it's like Europe. You know,

524
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: I could move to Berlin and live cheaper than here.

525
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: You know, it is hard to of three times that,

526
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: you know, So, so I think it's that's the other

527
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: thing is people just they they had no other choice,

528
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: you know, and we're just boured down by by thirty years,

529
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 1: you know, after twenty years of the dictator ship, thirty

530
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: years of this terrible wages and um, just neoliberalism, and

531
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: so so I think it's it's partially that and partially

532
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: just like the culture of protests that grew out of

533
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: the student movements in in the early two thousand's, mm hmm. Yeah,

534
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: there was one thing that was interested also interested about

535
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: that I don't remember seeing much of at the time,

536
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: was what was Chili organized labor doing during this That's

537
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: a good question. Honestly, labor hasn't been a big part

538
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 1: of the protest, at least from my point of view.

539
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it took

540
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: a pretty strong hit during the Pinochet years, if I'm

541
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: not mistaken, So there was kind of that, Like I

542
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: guess that does make sense. Sure, Yeah, honestly, I don't

543
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: know a whole lot about labor history here in Chile,

544
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: but um, but yeah, it definitely is. I mean, you

545
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: would see, you know, um union groups in the Straits

546
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: here and there, but um, but but definitely they weren't

547
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: a leading voice in the protest I would say. Yeah,

548
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 1: So I guess that leads into the other. I guess

549
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: one of the other things that, from from my understanding,

550
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: has been happening all across Latin America, but but in

551
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 1: in Chill in particular, is the rise of the informal

552
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 1: sector and people just sort of not having access to

553
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: sort of stable wages in labor. And I'm wondering about, Okay,

554
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: so organized labors like the classical unions aren't really involved

555
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: in this, And I guess I'm interested in how, if

556
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: I'm right that that you're dealing with a lot of

557
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: people who aren't doing traditional labor stuff, what was the

558
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: process that was able to get people mobilized. It's like,

559
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 1: especially people who just have no sort of like people,

560
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: people who are in the informal sector, and people who

561
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: are involved in the sort of older classical organizations. Yeah,

562
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess I would just say it's

563
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: like that that culture of protest um that comes from

564
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: the young people, uh in the last twenty years, and

565
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: then of course, um, the older folks who UM you know,

566
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: uh lived through the dictatorship, and of course, UM there

567
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: were an incredible protest at that time too. And and

568
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 1: so I don't know. I mean, honestly, I was even

569
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: after living here for you know, six years, UM, I

570
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: was shocked. I never thought it would come to this.

571
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: I never thought I would see you know, over half

572
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: a million people in the streets of Santiago. UM. And

573
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: and I would never never thought we'd see a new constitution. So, UM,

574
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't I don't have the answer.

575
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: Is it's uh, it's surprising to me. But UM. One

576
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: I will say, though, is I don't want to paint

577
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: a Rosie portrait of Chile right now. Because if like

578
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: we mentioned, you know, uh, tomorrow night, if you guys

579
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: go to uh Galerria sema c I m A on

580
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: YouTube or Instagram. UM, they have a live feed of

581
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: the plaza four blocks from our house. And every Friday,

582
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: you know, you the protests come out, and sometimes the

583
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: cops are there right away, and they make a whole

584
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: perimeter with two cops and all of the you know,

585
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: tanks and everything, UM, blocking in turns to the plaza

586
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: in every direction. Sometimes they let the people protest. But

587
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: then at ten o'clock, you know, after the sun comes down,

588
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: they come out there, and you know it's it's the

589
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: same thing were a young woman was was killed a

590
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. So and the other thing is

591
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: that we have this election coming up and uh, this

592
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: guy Cast, extreme right winger Pinochettista, UM, just like they

593
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: call him the Chilean Bosonaro UM, a real piece of ship.

594
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: And uh he has um, he has really risen in

595
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 1: the polls in the last month or two. UM. The

596
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: right wing candidate Sitchell, who won the right wing primaries,

597
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: UM and was kind of going to be the successor

598
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,919
Speaker 1: to Pinera, the current right wing president. UM. Because in Chile,

599
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: you know, you can't run consecutive you can't have consecutive terms. UM.

600
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: But Sitchell just kind of was not a great candidate

601
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 1: and uh kind of blew it and and he went

602
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: down and and now Cast is going up. And it's

603
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: really scary to think about Cast getting into the second round, UM,

604
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: where it will probably be him verse Boridge and UM.

605
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: And so yeah, you know, even though the constitution was

606
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: approved by seventy of the country, UM, you know, it's

607
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: very possible that this election is going to come down

608
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: to a runoff between a you know, moderate socialist like Boridge,

609
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: um not the most extreme leftist in fact, known as Amario,

610
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: you know, very yellow bellied here in Chile, that's his nickname. Um.

611
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: But it will probably right now, it's looking like it's

612
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: going to come down to him and cast who is

613
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: like almost a return to the dictatorship. So it's it's

614
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: pretty scary, geez. So it's just this there's just so

615
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: much fighting to do. Yeah, it's just so much fighting

616
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 1: to do. Um, I mean I I uh yeah, UM,

617
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: do you have do any of you have an anything

618
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 1: else you want to make sure you say or talk

619
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: about before we kind of close out for the day.

620
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: Oh no, I will say, like three days ago, I

621
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: just pay my I finally pay my whole student loan,

622
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: like like I've been working for more than ten years

623
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: in my life since I finished the university, and I've

624
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: been wasted, I mean, all my savings. I just pay

625
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: this fucking student loan. I guess that you guys in

626
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: this in the States like the same, thank you. I

627
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: don't know, except for people don't pay off their student

628
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: stays there forever. And I just I just I would

629
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: like to wish to the other, to the coming people

630
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: that I mean, I don't wish that future for my

631
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: from I mean for the future people in this country.

632
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 1: I don't wish anyone that I mean University, I mean

633
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: all students should be UM study for free. I mean

634
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: it's like uncle suable for me. Yeah, So that was

635
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: a big part of it. And then also the I

636
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 1: FIT pay pension system here, which is totally privatized, and

637
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: so you uh, you the government just takes your money

638
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 1: for retirement. You get to choose between four or five

639
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: options which are private companies, and then um, if you

640
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: make money, then the company takes you know, their chunk

641
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: of your your retirement as the payment for managing your fund.

642
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 1: But if you lose money, then it's on you. So literally,

643
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: you know, Stephie's mom is like, you know, checking on

644
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 1: her retirement. How did I do this year? It's like, oh,

645
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: you lost two thousand dollars this year. That's that's your requirement, Davids.

646
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: You know, so you and you have you know, people

647
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: here trying to live on you retirements of one hundred

648
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: dollars a month. Wow. The military is receiving ten tho

649
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: dollars a month, you know, So that was a big

650
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: part of it, um. But I think what I always

651
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: come back to here in Chile is, like we've said,

652
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: the activist renamed the plaza plaza dignidad, and that's what

653
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: it all comes down to, is just we're not asking

654
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: for you know, ponies, as Hillary Clinton would say, We're

655
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: not We're not asking for the moon. We're just asking

656
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,720
Speaker 1: for basic dignity that everyone deserves. And it's as simple

657
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: as that. So we just have to cross our fingers

658
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: and hope that we've done enough that that you know,

659
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: at a minimum, you know, people can live and retire

660
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: with some dignity, that's all. Yeah, and uh, and that

661
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: enough ecological justice can be gained that people can survive.

662
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: I've what's coming, um, which it's it's nice to see

663
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: at the very least that that's a central topic of discussion, um,

664
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: Whereas in the United States, everyone in power seems fine

665
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: with just ignoring the increasing problems right now. So I

666
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, I I again, I also don't

667
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: want to be painting too rosy a picture as you've

668
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 1: as you've repeatedly clear, there's a lot of of struggle

669
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: left still um, but at least you've you've you've achieved

670
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: a lot, and I I'm just heartened by by hearing

671
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: your story and and and hope that more people pay

672
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: attention to what's happened there and try to take lessons

673
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: from it, because I think we all need to be

674
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 1: we all need to be gearing up um as as

675
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure you all will continue to continue to do

676
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: anything else before we close out. UM No, that's it.

677
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I completely agree. I think that just like

678
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: the messages that like, you know, better things are possible,

679
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: like real, real, real change can happen, you know, like

680
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: this started, uh two years ago with high schoolers protesting,

681
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: and now we're going to have a vote on a

682
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,959
Speaker 1: new constitution, and it's going to be an ecological constitution,

683
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: of blurry natural national constitution, um with respect for the

684
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: indigenous people. It's it's uh, it's written by you know,

685
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: an equal amount of men and women and everything, and

686
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: and so yeah, just I think for me, it's so

687
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: easy for us who have grown up in you know,

688
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 1: under the gloom of neoliberalism, to to just get really

689
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: depressed and fatalistic about it. And uh so for me,

690
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 1: I feel the same way, Like it's just such an

691
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 1: inspiration and the Chilean and especially the Chilean youth. Um.

692
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: But but yeah, um, it's just an inspiration and uh

693
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: and proof that that change can happen. Um. But it's

694
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: not just voting. And you know, like Chileans have elected socialists.

695
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: You know, the former president was a socialist, but it

696
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: was just the same neo liberalism bullshit. So I think,

697
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: you know, voting is great, but like that's just not

698
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: enough and so you have to, um, you know, get

699
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: out in the streets and try to organize and make

700
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: real change in other ways as well. All right, yeah,

701
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: I agree entirely. Thank you all for coming on. Um,

702
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: you couldn't appreciate it more. And and I hope you

703
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: have a lovely rest of your day and a lovely

704
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: continuing to uh stick it to the sons of bitches,

705
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: welcome back to it could happen here. The show that

706
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: is only introduced competently when either someone besides me is

707
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: the one hosting the episode, or when I have a

708
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: guest that I feel embarrassed about being incompetent in front of.

709
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 1: And and this is this is the latter case, because

710
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: today I'm talking with Uh, my friend and admired colleague,

711
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: Molly Conjure. Molly, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

712
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 1: I got to do that like a professional. Welcome to

713
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: the show. That's like an NPR shit right. I know

714
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: people have been saying on the Twitch stream that I

715
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 1: have a very soothing NPR style voint. You would be great.

716
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,760
Speaker 1: I would love to hear you, uh talking in NPR

717
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: about how it's it's rad that those those people broke

718
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: the windows on those police cars or whatever. No, I

719
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: can't be allowed in respectable spaces. I can't be allowed there.

720
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: They let me talk on a panel at Harvard one

721
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: time and I actually said fuck in front of a

722
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: bunch of people. I mean, I assume Harvard students know

723
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: a funk word or two. Speaking of funk words, there's

724
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,919
Speaker 1: a couple of funk words who are under trial right

725
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: now for inciting mass violence that led to human death

726
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: and suffering. Um, you wanna you want to give us

727
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: the overview we're we're talking today about, you know, the

728
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: Unite the Right rally and Charles Well in two thousand

729
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: seventeen that led to three deaths, one as the result

730
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 1: of direct violence. Had their higher who was murdered murdered

731
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: by the fascist James Field currently in prison for forever. UM, Yeah,

732
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: forever that you know, his trial concluded a while ago. UM,

733
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: but there has been churning through the legal system a

734
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: trial against Richard Spencer Jason Kessler, who was the main organizer.

735
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: UM can't well, there's other uh plaintiffs right, Yeah, a

736
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of fascists about you know, all

737
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: of the things that they did, the fact that they

738
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 1: clearly intended this to be a violent uh riot assault whatever, like,

739
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: they wanted to have it be a fucking lynching essentially,

740
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of evidence, including things they said

741
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: to each other about building armies to murder people. UM. Anyway, Molly,

742
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: you want to take it from here, I think I've

743
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: introduced the situation. There's a trial going on. You have

744
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 1: been listening to every day of it and covering it

745
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: on twitch very ably, UM, And so I just kind

746
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 1: of wanted to catch up with you. You also wrote

747
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: an article in Slate with our friend Emily Gortchynsky about um,

748
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: what's like largely the jury selection of the trial. So

749
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could just kind of give

750
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: us an overview of what's happened so far. If your

751
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: thoughts on it, um that that seems that seems good. Yeah.

752
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: So there's just right at the outset, this is a

753
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: civil trial, right, this is not a criminal trial, and

754
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 1: no one's going to the No one's going to jail

755
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: at the end of this. Some of the jail we

756
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: call it, oh, what's that? The Who's goal? We call

757
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: it the Who's goal on the show. That's the property. Okay, Um,

758
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 1: some of them ality in jail obviously, Like you said,

759
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: James Fields is serving twenty nine life sentences to life.

760
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 1: It's a lot of life. So he was he was

761
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: charged in in Virginia State court by the Commonwealth of Virginia.

762
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: He was convicted at trial of first degree murder and

763
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: several counts of aggravated malicious wounding. Um. He was so

764
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: that trial happened in he actually went to trial for that,

765
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: but then he pleaded guilty in federal courts. He was

766
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: charged in two separate courts for the same underlying events,

767
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: and in federal court he pleaded guilty to twenty nine

768
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,919
Speaker 1: federal hate crimes. Um. He pleaded guilty to hate crimes.

769
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: So there's no debate about whether these were hate crimes, right,

770
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: and he pleaded guilty too. He pleaded guilty to avoid

771
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: the death penalty because a hate crime, murder is a

772
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: capital crime. So in this lawsuit, right, this this civil

773
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: lawsuit against Deep Breath, Jason Kesler, Richard Spencer, Christopher Campbell,

774
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: James alex Field, bang On America Andrew England, Moonbase Holdings,

775
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: Robert Asmond, Raid, Nathan To, Miko Elliott Klein, Identity Europe

776
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 1: and Matthew Parrot, Matthew Hindbuch, Traditionalist Worker Party, Michael Hill,

777
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: Michael Tubsley and the South Jeff Scooped. Now that the

778
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,919
Speaker 1: National Socialist Movement, Nationals Front, Augustus and Victus, Reternal Order

779
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 1: of the Alt Knights, Mike Kindovinch, Loyal White Knights of

780
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,879
Speaker 1: the KKK East Coast, Nights of the KKK East Coast,

781
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: Knights of the True Invisible Empire, Several of those parties

782
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: have been dismissed from the suit. That's a lot, It's

783
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: a lot of bad guys, right, um. Several of those

784
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: parties have been dismissed from the suit. Augustus and Victus

785
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 1: defaulted Pine dismission. That means the fact that he defaulted

786
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 1: does that mean he was like, yes, right, he offered

787
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: no defense, So that's what that means. Yeah, I mean

788
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 1: he's been dealing with a lot. What would he He's

789
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 1: had some problems, he's been jails, he had he abducted

790
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 1: his wife at gunpoint. Um. I think he's out of

791
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 1: jail now. But he's had some personal problems. He's had

792
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: some personal problems. So the underlying claim with the lawsuit

793
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: is a section complaint, a conspiracy to deprive people of

794
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: civil rights. This isundamentally, at its at its core, an

795
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: anti clan statute. Right, it was designed to disrupt clan organizing. Um.

796
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 1: And that's kind of what it's being used for here, right.

797
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: This is so the lawsuit was brought by by nine

798
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 1: plaintiffs who were harmed people who got hurt at the rally.

799
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: Most of the plaintiffs were physically injured in the car attack,

800
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: although not all of them. Um, But these are people

801
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: who are seeking damages, right, Like for all all the

802
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: emotional weight, all the sort of social ramifications. Fundamentally, this

803
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: is a case about damages. So the jury is going

804
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, these people were harmed, do we believe

805
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: they were harmed by a conspiracy to commit acts of violence,

806
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: conspiracy to commit racially motivated accidents. Right, so all of

807
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,439
Speaker 1: those elements have to improve. And there was guys want

808
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: to do racial violence when they assaulted people? Yeah, was

809
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: their conspiracy? Was it motivated by racial animus? And were

810
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: overt acts of violence committed? And did those acts of

811
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: violence harm these people in a way that entitles them

812
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: to damages? That's all the jury has to decide. Right,

813
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 1: should be an open shed case, But it does seem

814
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 1: like kind of an open and shut case. It does. Right, So,

815
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: if there are people out there who are not familiar

816
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: with the events of that day, a lot of alt

817
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: right groups, you know, overt neo Nazi organizations, the Literal Clan,

818
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: the literal American Nazi Party, like Neo Confederate secession. David's

819
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: Duke was there. David Duke was there, David Duke, who

820
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: Elliott Klein described as an ideological grandfather when he was

821
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: asking other organizers that he can invite him. Um, these

822
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: guys came together, they came to Charlottesville. They brawled in

823
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 1: the streets, they beat people, they hit them with shields.

824
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,760
Speaker 1: A Literal Clan wizard fired his gun at a black

825
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: band while screaming die N word. Well, now, okay, it

826
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: seems like you're reaching a bit to call that racially motivated. Well,

827
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: that's something they're trying to litigate, right, So you're probably

828
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: familiar with the video of DeAndre Harris being beaten nearly

829
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: to death by members of several different hate groups, right.

830
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: So one of the guys that beat him was a

831
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:13,919
Speaker 1: tv a P member, one of them was a League

832
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: of the South member, and they worked together to beat

833
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: this young man nearly to death while he was lying

834
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 1: on the ground. And so that today they were talking

835
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: about like, well, can we really say that was racially motivated?

836
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: You know, can we really say can we really say? Yeah, yeah,

837
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: I think we can. I think we can. Um. You know,

838
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 1: his mother has been on podcasts since his conviction. I'm

839
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: referring to Jacob Goodwin, the t TPP member, the man

840
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: who used a t w P riot shield provided to

841
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: him by Matthew Heinbach to beat this young man. His

842
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 1: mother goes on Nazi podcast still to describe how her

843
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: son is a martyr for the white cause. There's no ambiguity.

844
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: But where are you getting racially motivated from that moment? Right?

845
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: Like there's a there's a picture of her with her

846
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: arm around her son. Her sons like seven feet tall.

847
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: He's a giant boy to get her arm around her

848
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: large adults, and he's wearing a T shirt with a

849
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: giant picture of George Lincoln Rockwell on it. Ah, you

850
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 1: love the deep cuts, so you know. And Billy Roper's

851
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: Christmas party. Yeah, another another Nazi, right, So there's not

852
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: a lot of ambiguity here for the average person, but

853
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: so you know, like you were saying, Emily and I

854
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: wrote about jury selection, jury selection is um so corporate

855
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: seedings are generally speaking open to the public. Anyone can

856
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 1: go to their local courthouse and you can sit through

857
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: a trial. You can sit through the war deer process.

858
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: You can see how a jury gets chosen. You can

859
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: go trial hopping, get wasted re entertainment. As long as

860
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 1: you say quietly, they can't make you leave. It's like

861
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: a library's very discouraging, because the whole point is to

862
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:52,720
Speaker 1: pic jurors who have never encountered reality. You pick people

863
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: who don't have any opinions, right because you want them

864
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 1: to be able to be impartial. And the best way

865
00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 1: to make sure your jury is going to be impartial

866
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 1: is to people who don't have any opinions. And if

867
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: you don't have any opinions on whether or not it's

868
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: good for Nazis to beat people in the streets, I

869
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: would say that in and of itself as an opinion

870
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: that you already have right the ability do not have

871
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: an opinion about that. So the jury selection took three

872
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: days because they had to go through this process of

873
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: speaking to each juror individually. Usually they'll they'll do it

874
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: in batches where they ask questions of people in batches, um.

875
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: But this was so sensitive they didn't want to taint

876
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: the jury pool, so they did it one by one.

877
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 1: So it took three days um, and they chose jurors

878
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 1: who didn't have opinions about the existence of racism in

879
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: the United States. Okay, that seems unbiased. Again, it's this

880
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: thing you keep seeing where it's like, well, we can't

881
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: let people have a bias, so it has to be

882
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: people who have never heard of white supremacy, which is like,

883
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: then that's a bias in favor of white supremacy. But

884
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 1: of course that's the default of the system. It's like

885
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 1: that's the tear right, like you stick white supremacy on

886
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: the scale and you tear it, but then you add

887
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: awayness of white supremacy and suddenly there's weight on it.

888
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: You know, it's sorry, it's very fresh. I know, you know,

889
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 1: it's frustrating and mean, yeah, I shouldn't. It was frustrating

890
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: to sit through listening to them to ask people, you know,

891
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 1: because they had to fill out a questionnaire ahead of

892
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: time so so they can sort of sift through obvious

893
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: knows um. And one of the questions was, you know,

894
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: how do you feel about how concerned are you about

895
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: these different kinds of prejudice, you know, prejudice against black people,

896
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 1: prejudice against Hispanic people, prejudice against Jewish people, are prejudice

897
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: against white people. And a lot of people indicated that

898
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 1: they were very concerned about anti white racism, and a

899
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: lot of jurors were asked follow up questions about like, well,

900
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 1: why aren't you more concerned about anti white racism? Why

901
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 1: did you say you don't care about that because it's

902
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: not real. Yeah, because I've never seen it in my

903
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:50,959
Speaker 1: entire life. Um, but okay, but we seated a jury.

904
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 1: We did see the jury, and there were you know,

905
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: there's always concerned in a case like this that you

906
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: just won't be able to get an impartial jury. But

907
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: we got it could be worse, right, it could be worse. Um.

908
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 1: There is a guy on the jury who said that

909
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: in high school he was the victim of a racially

910
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 1: motivated attack by by a Samoan person, um because they

911
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: didn't like white people. M hmm, I wonder what that

912
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: person was doing. Slash say, black people who believe that

913
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 1: they have a right to exist without being subjected to racism,

914
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 1: not impartial can't be on the jury. But a white

915
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: guy who says he was the victim of a hate

916
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: crime because someone didn't like Howley's God, so people talking

917
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:35,919
Speaker 1: about like I don't like it when folks not from

918
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: my island come here and function up and make it expensive. Yeah,

919
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: that's anti white racist. He was living in incredible incredible,

920
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 1: So you know, it could be a worster, It could

921
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,439
Speaker 1: be a worse jury. But it's not ideal. Um, God,

922
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: where did we go from there? It's been it's been

923
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: a little bit of a blur. Um. So Cantwell and

924
00:57:55,880 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 1: Spencer don't have lawyers, right, well yeah, okay, so right,

925
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: because can't Well, can't can't well, it is for people

926
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: who aren't aware, can't well is representing himself and tell

927
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong here. But he started by

928
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: acknowledging the old saying that a person who represents themselves

929
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: as a fool as a lawyer, but then said, but

930
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,919
Speaker 1: I'm not a fool in this case. Yeah, he said,

931
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: you may have heard this, but that's not true here.

932
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: That's not the case here. Unbelievable. Just and I didn't

933
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 1: even stay in a holiday and Express last night. Oh

934
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: my god. Really he seriously made a holiday and Express

935
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: joke while he was oh my god. But the follow up,

936
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 1: the follow up was, but I did stay in the

937
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 1: Central Virginia Regional Jail because that is where he stays. Yeah,

938
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: I mean because he's he's in prison for sexually or

939
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: not for for harassing and threatening and blackmailing another Nazi, right, yeah, yeah.

940
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: He was transported here from the federal prison in mary

941
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: in Illinois, where he is a guest until next Christmas. Um,

942
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: so he had filed motion is to exclude the fact

943
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: that he's currently incarcerated, as is his right right, Like

944
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 1: if you are a yeah, yeah, absolutely involved in a

945
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: in a criminal case or in A. In a civil case,

946
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: it is it is your right to have the jury

947
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 1: not see you in a jumpsuit, and I respect that.

948
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,439
Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely yea. So he went to great

949
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 1: links to make sure that the jury would never see

950
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: him in cuffs, that the marshals wouldn't bring him in irons,

951
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: that he would change before the jury arrived at the coronels.

952
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: All very reasonable, and no one's going to get to

953
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 1: talk about it, but he brought it up in his

954
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 1: own opening statement. I'm here from prison. I'm here from prison.

955
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm in prison for the other crimes

956
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: I committed. But they're not related to these crimes. They're

957
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 1: not related to these crimes except to the extent that

958
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 1: he's unable to shut the funk up. He's only in

959
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: prison because he emailed the FBI or recording him him

960
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: doing the crime that he's in prison for. He's he's

961
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: really a very cunning man. But I think, you know, so,

962
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 1: as much as those crimes aren't relevant to this case,

963
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 1: I think it is very relevant to his trial strategy,

964
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 1: right that he has this belief that all the things

965
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: he did that were wrong, they were right. Actually he

966
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: just needs to explain to us why he did them,

967
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: and then we'll understand. Right, he's in prison because he

968
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 1: tried to talk his way out of a thing that

969
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: he did that was wrong by telling everyone that he

970
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 1: did do it. Yes, I did it because I have to.

971
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 1: You didn't have to make an extortionate threat to rape

972
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: another man's wife in front of their children. You didn't

973
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 1: actually have to do that. Yeah, that's really I mean

974
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: I would I might argue, and perhaps I'm an extremist,

975
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: but there's no situation in which you would ever have

976
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: to do that. Nobody made you email the FBI about

977
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: how you did that, but you did. I would have

978
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 1: told you that was a bad idea. I mean, there's

979
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 1: saying there's some snarky stuff in some in some of

980
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 1: the affidavits about how like he called the Keen Police

981
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 1: Department trying to tattle tale on other people so often

982
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: that they were tired of taking his calls. Unbelievable, What

983
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: an amazing man, Like he's a piece of ship, but

984
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 1: he is legitimately an incredible person. I mean, if he

985
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: wrote this, no one would believe it. Right, this is

986
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 1: so heavy handed, it's so goofy, Like when he was

987
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 1: paying Elmer in guns his law He paid his lawyer

988
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: in guns, and then he ran out of guns and

989
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 1: had his lawyer stopped working for him. Yeah, he doesn't

990
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: have a lawyer anymore because he ran out of guns

991
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 1: to pawn. Although I guess he can't anymore because now

992
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 1: he's a convicted I gotta say, running out of guns

993
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: to pawn for your lawyer, it's pretty cocked. He even

994
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: had to sell the bucket of loose bullets he used

995
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: to keep us a prop on his desk, I mean,

996
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: really devastating stuff. Um, so he doesn't You're you're down

997
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: to the brad, You're down to the rails when you're

998
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 1: two with that really the bottom of the barrel. So

999
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 1: he's proceeding pro sae, which, unfortunately, unfortunately for everyone involved,

1000
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 1: means he gets to talk a lot, a lot, a

1001
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 1: lot a lot, which means he gets to cross examine

1002
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: his own witnesses. Right, So the first two witnesses the

1003
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 1: plaintiffs put on were two of their plaintiffs, right, two

1004
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 1: young people who were injured in these events. The first

1005
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 1: witness they put on Natalie. It's the v a student

1006
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: who had her skull fractured in the car attack. Um,

1007
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: she had to learn how to walk again, she had

1008
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 1: to see a neurologist to retrain her eyes to track movement.

1009
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 1: I mean, she was very badly injured. Um. And so

1010
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 1: she testified at length about the damage that was done

1011
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 1: to her. Because again, this is a case about damages.

1012
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: So the jury needs to learn who is this person,

1013
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 1: what happened to them, what did it cost them physically, mentally, emotionally,

1014
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: financially um, Because what they're gonna be asked to do

1015
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: is to put a dollar amount on it. So they

1016
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 1: had to meet her and hear about her injuries, UM,

1017
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: and hear about her motivation for being there. Um. You know,

1018
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: she's a young queer Latino woman as she's the first

1019
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 1: college student in her family, and she's a very impressive

1020
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 1: young woman, and she was very composed of the stand

1021
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 1: um as awful as the content was. Um. But then

1022
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 1: every single one of the defendants gets to cross examine her.

1023
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: Richard Spencer gets a cross examine her. Christopher camp Well

1024
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 1: gets to cross exam and her. James Klenich who took

1025
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 1: the case. He's Kessler Demigo and Identity Europe's lawyer, James Klenicch.

1026
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 1: She's an Ohio based attorney who said on the record

1027
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 1: that he took this case with the express purpose of

1028
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: opposing Jewish influence. Great Great Klenich gets to cross examined

1029
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: her matt Heimbuck's new lawyer, Josh Smith used to be

1030
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 1: the campaign spokesman for Paul Neilan, wasn't endorsed by Trump

1031
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 1: at one point in his run for Congress, and as

1032
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 1: also just a straight up Nazi who's repeatedly threatened to

1033
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: murder you. Yeah. Yeah. One time he spent all day

1034
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 1: posting pictures of a deer that he said that he

1035
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 1: named after me. He said, I named this dear Molly.

1036
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 1: You know, he's been all day stalking at posting pictures

1037
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: of it, posting pictures of his gun um. And then

1038
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 1: he posted a picture of the dear stage like a lynching,

1039
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: and then he spelled my name out in its entrails

1040
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: and posted pictures of that. So you're just like a

1041
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 1: really normal guy Paul Neilan, which totally completely with it um.

1042
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: His campaign spokesperson when he ran for Congress was the

1043
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: Holocaust denying um former jew Josh Smith. Josh Smith was

1044
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: born Daniel Nussbaum. He changed his name to hide his

1045
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 1: Jewish past. Oh, that is an old story among the Nazis.

1046
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 1: I mean we talked about the guy who invented uh

1047
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 1: sea monkeys. But yeah, it's basically the same case. And

1048
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 1: you know who else hides their I okay, Um, this

1049
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: was meant to be an ad plug. Normally Sophie would

1050
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 1: jump in and stop me from doing that. None of

1051
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: these advertise, none of these advisers are plaintiffs in the

1052
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 1: current case that you're covering. That's a guarantee, that is,

1053
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 1: that is an absolute promise. David Duke is not about

1054
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 1: to sell you dick pills. No, no, no, although he

1055
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 1: could use them. We're back, Um, all right, Molly, sorry,

1056
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 1: please continue. God where were we got distracted thinking about

1057
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 1: David Duke trying to sill you dick pills? Yeah? I

1058
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 1: have That's not good for anybody, right, so everybody gets

1059
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: to cross examined the waiting. It's Josh Smith is Himbo's

1060
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 1: new lawyer. Um Colennich used to be a lot of

1061
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 1: these guys lawyers, and then he sort of dropped them

1062
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 1: over time as they became uncooperative. They are all these

1063
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:12,439
Speaker 1: motions to withdraw. Klench slowly dropped clients over the last

1064
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 1: two years. Um, he dropped can't Well as a client

1065
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: because kent Well wouldn't stop posting about hurting Roberta Kaplan,

1066
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 1: who's the lead counsel for the plaintiffs. ROBERTA Kaplan, Femish,

1067
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 1: famous Jewish lesbian lawyer. You know, she was on the

1068
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 1: US v. Windsor the I'm losing it, absolutely losing it,

1069
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court case that gave us gay marriage right.

1070
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 1: ROBERTA Kaplan brought us gay marriage essentially. So she, you know,

1071
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 1: famous Jewish lesbian that is a well known portion of

1072
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: her identity and can't Well kept posting um anti semitic

1073
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 1: remarks about her. And finally Klennch was like, you're making

1074
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 1: it really hard to be your lawyer, and you don't

1075
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 1: pay me. Um. And Colennich dropped Heimbach as a client

1076
01:05:54,840 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen because Heimbuch just stopped answering his calls. Um.

1077
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:05,600
Speaker 1: Great smart people. Yeah. So Matt Parrott, who's Matt Heimbuck's

1078
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 1: father in law but also the husband of the woman

1079
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 1: that he was sleeping. This complicated. There's a chart. There's

1080
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 1: a chart. Matt Heimbuck and Matt parrot um founders of

1081
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 1: the Traditional Worker Party, Best friends for a long time.

1082
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: FIL's wives big problems, big problems for them. The Night

1083
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: of Wrong Wives, The Night of the Wrong Wives. So

1084
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 1: Matt Parrot was technically Matt Heimbach's father in law during

1085
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 1: the time pariod which Heimbach was fucking Parrot's wife. Very

1086
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: classy people, not a great situation. So they lost their lawyer.

1087
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 1: UM Parrot very publicly told all Traditionalist Worker Party members

1088
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 1: to destroy evidence. UM so we knew that, right that

1089
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 1: was on the record from the beginning that Matt Parrot

1090
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 1: was like, hey, everyone in t t VP, if you

1091
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 1: did any crimes, delete it right, delete your social media,

1092
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 1: delete your pictures. Like we weren't there, right, that's a crime.

1093
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: That's a crime, is a crime, right there. But an

1094
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: interesting thing that we learned to date, but I don't

1095
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 1: think we did know before. Um. In November, so they

1096
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 1: played a recording of a conversation between Matt Heimbuch and

1097
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 1: Christopher Can't Well And this was during examination of Heimbuch.

1098
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 1: Heimbuck was on the stand and they're talking about like,

1099
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: you know, you didn't produce discovery. You said you lost

1100
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 1: your phone, this, that and the other. You know, after

1101
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 1: you beat your wife, she threw away your phone. Um

1102
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:33,919
Speaker 1: so he said I couldn't turn over my social media

1103
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 1: accounts because my wife deleted them because we had an

1104
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 1: argument about me taking out the trash, right like, we

1105
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 1: had this domestic dispute about the trash and she deleted

1106
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 1: all my accounts, so I couldn't turn them over. Um. Well,

1107
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 1: today we found out that he told Can't Well in

1108
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 1: ten so a year after the lawsuit was filed. When

1109
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 1: a lawsuit was filed against you, you have a legal

1110
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 1: obligation to not do things like this. He told Can't

1111
01:07:56,080 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 1: Well that after a conversation with his lawyer, the advice

1112
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 1: of his lawyer, he deleted those accounts. Oh oh, there's

1113
01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 1: just a record of him criming. Yeah, that's a crime,

1114
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: and it's also a crime for his lawyer to have

1115
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:18,840
Speaker 1: advised him to do that. Great. Um again, that's there's

1116
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: no direct evidence who told him to do that, but

1117
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 1: we do have a recording of him saying a lawyer

1118
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 1: told him to. So that's not great. That's not a

1119
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,839
Speaker 1: good situation. Is he going to get charged with anything

1120
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 1: for that? I am curious. You know, I'm not a lawyer.

1121
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 1: Just for everyone listening, I'm not a lawyer. I didn't

1122
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: go to law school. I didn't even finish undergrad. I'm

1123
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 1: not a lawyer, um, but I have listened to a

1124
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:42,759
Speaker 1: lot of lawyers. But I am I am curious, what

1125
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 1: with what frequenci Can perjury charges be sought in a

1126
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 1: civil case? Right, it's still under oath, like it is

1127
01:08:51,280 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 1: still perjury. But how common is that to be pursued

1128
01:08:55,240 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 1: because they're perjuring? Yeah, perjury perjurer doing the right always does,

1129
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,680
Speaker 1: which is trust that the law will never actually come

1130
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 1: after them for their many crimes. And there's there's a

1131
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 1: good chance they'll be right. You know, like Himbach said,

1132
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: you know when he was asked, have you ever provided

1133
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:15,080
Speaker 1: security for Richard Spencer? And he said no, And it's well,

1134
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:19,760
Speaker 1: there's like a hundred pictures of you doing that multiple events. Um.

1135
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:21,680
Speaker 1: You know, they're claiming they don't know each other, Like

1136
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 1: here's all these pictures of you guys hanging out. Um, god,

1137
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 1: where else are we? Um? Yeah, I'm curious. You know

1138
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:34,880
Speaker 1: one thing that kind of especially because of the written

1139
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 1: house thing. And we're actually we'll be talking to lawyer

1140
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 1: tomorrow night about or tomorrow about the written house thing. Um,

1141
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:50,520
Speaker 1: every cool person shares the same lawyer. Uh. Um. But yeah,

1142
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:52,240
Speaker 1: because of that, I'm kind of curious, what do what

1143
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 1: is your what since do you get of this judge?

1144
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:00,840
Speaker 1: There's no good judges, there's no judges. But it could

1145
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 1: be yeah, I mean, I'm not saying, but it could be.

1146
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 1: It could be a lot worse. You know, Trump appointed

1147
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 1: a shipload of federal judges pretty recently. Judgment is eighty

1148
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:13,799
Speaker 1: five years old. He's a Clinton appointee. He's a Clinton appointee,

1149
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 1: so it's could be worse. He's been on the bench,

1150
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 1: you know since I was an elementary school. Um, and

1151
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 1: he's very old, and he doesn't he has it's a

1152
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 1: little bit hard of hearing, but he's not stupid. Um.

1153
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people, I think we are really

1154
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:32,719
Speaker 1: frustrated with some of the things he's allowing to happen.

1155
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:36,679
Speaker 1: He's he's really allowing these these proceed defendants to sort

1156
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:40,160
Speaker 1: of run rough shot over the procedure. But you know,

1157
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 1: like I said before we started recording, it's really hard

1158
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:49,639
Speaker 1: to apply the Your sense of how things are supposed

1159
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: to work doesn't really apply in court. Right. There's a

1160
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 1: very rigid, sort of outdated set of rules and procedures

1161
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 1: and they don't feel right, they don't feel logical or

1162
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,800
Speaker 1: reasonable or fair. There is a specific way that it works,

1163
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 1: and it is hard to watch, especially if you've never

1164
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:06,320
Speaker 1: seen it before. And because of the emotionally fraught nature

1165
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 1: of this, it's particularly frustrating to be to be listening

1166
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 1: on this line and saying, like, why are they allowed

1167
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:16,000
Speaker 1: to do this to this witness? Well, legally you can

1168
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:18,439
Speaker 1: cross examine your witnesses, even if you are the person

1169
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 1: who hurt them. It's not a good system, but it

1170
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:24,600
Speaker 1: is how it works. Um, but he's um And I

1171
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,639
Speaker 1: also think there's there's concern about appellate issues. There's concerned

1172
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 1: about mistrial, and so they're really going out of their

1173
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:32,880
Speaker 1: way not to give anyone any excuse to say, well,

1174
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 1: this was not fair to me. They're gonna say it anyway,

1175
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 1: but they they're really letting them have a long leash

1176
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 1: in a way that feels very bad. But at the

1177
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: same time I can kind of understand it. Yeah, I

1178
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 1: wish they hadn't done so much Holocaust denial, like on

1179
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:53,680
Speaker 1: on the right. That good. They put an expert on

1180
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:57,920
Speaker 1: today who's um Dr Debrah Lipstad, who's an expert in

1181
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: Holocaust denial to sort of talk about what the Holocaust is.

1182
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,479
Speaker 1: I guess in case the jury doesn't know. God, that's bleak,

1183
01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:10,799
Speaker 1: I mean, that's sucking bleak because they chose this jury

1184
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 1: based on them never having heard of Jews. You know,

1185
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: it's a bunch of like middle aged people from Green

1186
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 1: County who have never met a Jewish person. So they

1187
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:21,680
Speaker 1: had to put on a professor to say, okay, when

1188
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:24,920
Speaker 1: he says gas the K words, we're talking about gas chambers,

1189
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:27,519
Speaker 1: gas chambers from the Holocaust. They didn't start out with

1190
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:29,720
Speaker 1: gas chambers. They started with mass shootings. But it was

1191
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 1: too messy. I mean she was literally recounting sort of

1192
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 1: the evolution from the Asens group and you know, shootings

1193
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:37,759
Speaker 1: in the fields to the ka of the gas chambers.

1194
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,599
Speaker 1: Like we had to talk all the way through it.

1195
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:46,480
Speaker 1: Um because it seems unnecessary, but again for the jury

1196
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 1: it might be necessary. And so when Asma door Robert

1197
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:53,320
Speaker 1: don't want to take anything for granted, you know, yeah, right,

1198
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:55,760
Speaker 1: and you really have to sort of lay out these connections, right,

1199
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:58,280
Speaker 1: because the idea is you have to prove a conspiracy,

1200
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 1: and you have to prove the conspiracy was racial motivated. Um.

1201
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 1: And so when Asma door is the racist wizard name

1202
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 1: that um Robert Ray uses when he writes for the

1203
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:09,320
Speaker 1: Daily Stormer. When Asmador keeps saying, we're going to gas

1204
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 1: the K words, everyone knows what I mean when I

1205
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: say that, right, yes, yeah, okay, Um, you know he

1206
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:17,720
Speaker 1: keeps saying, you know, the plan is to gas the

1207
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,400
Speaker 1: K words. You know, G, T, K, R, W, N UM,

1208
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 1: guess the K words race war. Now he keeps saying,

1209
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 1: he keeps saying, keeps saying it. And then the Torch March,

1210
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 1: he Pepper sprays a bunch of people, which he is

1211
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:30,479
Speaker 1: currently a fugitive of justice for UM. He's UM, he's

1212
01:13:30,479 --> 01:13:35,880
Speaker 1: wanted for felony in Almarle County. He's missing. UM. So

1213
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: he says he's going to do it, then he does it,

1214
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 1: and then afterwards he's on video saying, yeah, I guessed

1215
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 1: half a dozen K words, so you can see from

1216
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:46,040
Speaker 1: A to B to C. And then we have this

1217
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 1: expert saying, Okay, what he's saying is a direct reference

1218
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:53,800
Speaker 1: to the Holocaust, right, Um, It's like he's like you said,

1219
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:56,439
Speaker 1: it's pretty open and shut. It's pretty straightforward A to

1220
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:59,200
Speaker 1: B two c. Um. You know we have these discord

1221
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:01,879
Speaker 1: leaks if you want to browse them. They're on Unicorn

1222
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:05,559
Speaker 1: Riot and almost immediately after the rally, Unicorn Riot had

1223
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 1: these discord leaks. UM the entire server, the Charlesville two

1224
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,599
Speaker 1: point oh server where they planned this out, where they're

1225
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:13,960
Speaker 1: in the discord saying yeah, it's gonna be so great.

1226
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:15,720
Speaker 1: We're gonna do just so much violence. We're gonna we're

1227
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 1: gonna hurt people, We're gonna bring shield, we're gonna bring base,

1228
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 1: really explicitly talking about the plan, making jokes about hitting

1229
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: people with cars. UM. Now that the entire discord will

1230
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:30,120
Speaker 1: be admitted, UM, it has been authenticated. They received another

1231
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:32,719
Speaker 1: copy of it via subpoena directly from discord. It's real.

1232
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:35,800
Speaker 1: It's evidence, UM, as much as Campbell doesn't like that.

1233
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 1: But more than that, UM, we have, you know, some

1234
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:46,879
Speaker 1: first person authentication. We heard deposition testimony from Elliott Klein's

1235
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 1: ex girlfriend, UM, the woman that he was living with

1236
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 1: in seventeen. So in the summer of seventeen, he was

1237
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:54,280
Speaker 1: living with this woman that he had just met and

1238
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:58,040
Speaker 1: it entered into a romantic relationship with UM. She has

1239
01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:00,679
Speaker 1: since left the movement. She has a lot regret about

1240
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:04,479
Speaker 1: her involvement in that time period, and you know, there's

1241
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:06,240
Speaker 1: little People have a lot of mixed feelings about what

1242
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:07,800
Speaker 1: it means to leave the movement, what it means to

1243
01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: a tone, Is it possible to redeem yourself for having

1244
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 1: been a part of something like that. We don't have

1245
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:16,200
Speaker 1: to litigate that, but we do have to well, we

1246
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:19,560
Speaker 1: do have to recognize that her testimony is damn me.

1247
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:22,160
Speaker 1: I mean, this is not this is not Elliott Klein

1248
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:24,080
Speaker 1: putting on a show in public. This is not Elliott

1249
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 1: Klein posturing for his friends. This is Eli at home

1250
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:29,680
Speaker 1: in bed with his girlfriend talking about his fantasies of

1251
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 1: killing all the Jews. Um. And her testimony was pretty harmful. Um,

1252
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:41,400
Speaker 1: you wouldn't think, yeah, it's not great. You know. Really

1253
01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:44,320
Speaker 1: you have to wonder how the jury is taking this right,

1254
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:48,839
Speaker 1: these people who have no concept or context for this

1255
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:52,960
Speaker 1: for years yea hours of this woman sort of near

1256
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:55,439
Speaker 1: tears talking about how her boyfriend said that he was

1257
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:57,760
Speaker 1: going to put her in a breeding camp once they

1258
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:05,360
Speaker 1: had the ethno state. Um. Not nice, really not nice stuff. Um.

1259
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:07,080
Speaker 1: And she also tested you know, we we have the

1260
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,400
Speaker 1: messages from the discord where people are posting memes and

1261
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 1: jokes about hitting protesters, but Samantha testified that at private

1262
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:16,920
Speaker 1: parties at Richard Spencer's house in the summer. Of these

1263
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:20,240
Speaker 1: private parties with the organizers of the event at Richard

1264
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:27,080
Speaker 1: Spencer's apartment, people explicitly discussed the legality of hitting people

1265
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:31,160
Speaker 1: with their cars. This is not random people in the

1266
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:33,200
Speaker 1: discord that Richards could say, Oh, I don't know him,

1267
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 1: I never met him, I never posted in discord. This

1268
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:41,840
Speaker 1: is somebody sitting on your couch Richard. Um. Yeah, and

1269
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:44,679
Speaker 1: you know, Samantha said that during that time period, um,

1270
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:48,759
Speaker 1: Klein was building an army for Richard, and Kessler texted

1271
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:51,040
Speaker 1: Spencer is something similar, right that, where we'll build an

1272
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:56,280
Speaker 1: army my liege fucking dorcass ship. Um. But so when

1273
01:16:56,360 --> 01:16:59,479
Speaker 1: when One fun surprise from Samantha was that during that

1274
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:03,800
Speaker 1: time period Klein was, you know, planning to provide his

1275
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:06,360
Speaker 1: militia in the form of Identity Europa. Right, these these

1276
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:09,000
Speaker 1: street troops he was going to provide to Spencer to

1277
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 1: build the movement, but that when the time came, he

1278
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:14,679
Speaker 1: always knew that he would kill Richard to take control.

1279
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:21,880
Speaker 1: These people are all such fucking It's a shame that

1280
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:27,920
Speaker 1: what they actually are is deniable assets for the most

1281
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:31,240
Speaker 1: dangerous folks, you know, the fucking the fucking Bannon types,

1282
01:17:32,439 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 1: because if if all of the fascists were this dumb,

1283
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be so worried. And it's hard, it's hard

1284
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:42,200
Speaker 1: to walk the line between, you know, really getting a

1285
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:45,840
Speaker 1: kick out of some of these moments where it genuinely funny, right,

1286
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 1: but you remember, like, these people are very dangerous, these

1287
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:51,600
Speaker 1: people are responsible for a death. These people it's this

1288
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:54,599
Speaker 1: emotional whiplash right of the plaintiffs getting on and saying, yes,

1289
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 1: my life was ruined. I still have nightmares, I still

1290
01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 1: have to go to physical therapy. And then well getting

1291
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:04,120
Speaker 1: up there and asking Heimbach if he's a federal agent. Yeah, right,

1292
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:06,880
Speaker 1: like I think so we've only seen one of the

1293
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:08,680
Speaker 1: defendants on the stand so far, but I have a

1294
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:11,680
Speaker 1: strong feeling can't Well, it's going to use every opportunity

1295
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 1: that he has his freenemies under oath to ask them

1296
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:17,400
Speaker 1: if they snitched on him. Yeah, that's that's going to

1297
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:20,000
Speaker 1: be pretty funny. It's gonna be great. You gotta laugh.

1298
01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:24,040
Speaker 1: Sometimes life's too hard. But I can't Will is really

1299
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 1: using this. I think you know, he has nothing to lose. Right,

1300
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:29,639
Speaker 1: this is a case of damages. He has no money

1301
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:31,600
Speaker 1: for them to take. He has thirty thou dollars in

1302
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:33,880
Speaker 1: credit card debt and his car got repossessed once he

1303
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 1: went to prison. He has nothing for them to take.

1304
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 1: The only person he knows who did have anything is

1305
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:41,639
Speaker 1: Ian Freeman, who's currently facing federal charges for some sort

1306
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:46,720
Speaker 1: of complicated bitcoin money laundering scam through a fake church. Um.

1307
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,719
Speaker 1: So he doesn't even have any friends to help him.

1308
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 1: That's an interesting case, but I don't have time for

1309
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:54,519
Speaker 1: it now. But he has so he has nothing for

1310
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:56,720
Speaker 1: them to take. He's already a felon. He can't have

1311
01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:59,240
Speaker 1: a gun anymore. I think he's just using this as

1312
01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:02,280
Speaker 1: an opportunity as a platform to get his message out

1313
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:04,840
Speaker 1: there and to harm the people he thinks harmed him.

1314
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:07,920
Speaker 1: So every chance he gets, he's trying to force witnesses

1315
01:19:07,960 --> 01:19:11,120
Speaker 1: to ducks people. Right. He asked one of the plaintiffs,

1316
01:19:11,320 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 1: Devin Willis, when another young man who was who was

1317
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:16,160
Speaker 1: injured at the torch march um a plaintiff in this case.

1318
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 1: He asked him he forced him to name the names

1319
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 1: of the non parties who were also counter demonstrating at

1320
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:26,160
Speaker 1: the statue. These people's names have not been on the record.

1321
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 1: They you know, judge made him do that, made him

1322
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:35,000
Speaker 1: do that. That's and you know, you could if you were,

1323
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, a complete baby brained idiot, you could say, well,

1324
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 1: you know that maybe there was a legal reason that

1325
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:42,880
Speaker 1: he needed those names. Whi's not and we know there's

1326
01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:45,439
Speaker 1: not because he tried to do it again today. Um.

1327
01:19:45,479 --> 01:19:47,400
Speaker 1: There was a non party witness, a young woman who

1328
01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 1: lived um in one of the dorm rooms right by

1329
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:53,400
Speaker 1: the rotunda. They're called the lawn rooms. The prestigious opportunity.

1330
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:55,879
Speaker 1: Only super high achievers get to live in those beautiful

1331
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:58,439
Speaker 1: historic lawing rooms. So she lived right near where the

1332
01:19:58,479 --> 01:20:00,360
Speaker 1: torch march was happening, and she heard and she went

1333
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:03,600
Speaker 1: outside and she looked at it. Um. She's not a

1334
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:05,400
Speaker 1: party to the suit. She has no knowledge of these

1335
01:20:05,439 --> 01:20:07,920
Speaker 1: people or what happened. She just saw this thing happen.

1336
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:10,640
Speaker 1: And she testified to that UM, and he tried to

1337
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,519
Speaker 1: you know, she had made some passing remark that she

1338
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:18,280
Speaker 1: had heard from another student that maybe there would be

1339
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 1: a thing on campus right that they knew about the

1340
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:22,840
Speaker 1: rally the next day. But like, I don't know, maybe

1341
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:25,200
Speaker 1: these guys will try and come here, just like, be

1342
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:28,880
Speaker 1: on your toes, right, not anything specific. She was not.

1343
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:31,760
Speaker 1: She's not an activist, she's not. She didn't know anything right,

1344
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:34,120
Speaker 1: and so he was grilled her, tell me who told

1345
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:35,639
Speaker 1: you that? Tell me who told you that? How did

1346
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,960
Speaker 1: you know that? And he said, on the record, direct quote,

1347
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:42,800
Speaker 1: I want to know who infiltrated our communications. So he's

1348
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 1: trying to use this, this moment where he has someone

1349
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:50,840
Speaker 1: under oath to extract information about who snitched. He wants

1350
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:54,640
Speaker 1: to know who infiltrated their secret communications, which is him

1351
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:57,680
Speaker 1: admitting their secret communications that weren't turned over in discovery,

1352
01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:01,040
Speaker 1: which wasn't smart of him to do. But he's using

1353
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:06,000
Speaker 1: this process to get names of people who he can harass.

1354
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 1: And we know that's what they're doing because while he

1355
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 1: was getting these names from that other witness, you know

1356
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 1: the names of the people at the statue. Jason Kessler,

1357
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:16,479
Speaker 1: the lead defendant, right that, the defendant whose name is

1358
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:19,400
Speaker 1: on the lawsuit, the lead organizer of the rally, is

1359
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:22,880
Speaker 1: posting all this time. He's posting through it, posting through it.

1360
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:24,439
Speaker 1: If you had a good lawyer, he would tell you

1361
01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:28,760
Speaker 1: not to post through your own conspiracy trial. Um So

1362
01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:31,519
Speaker 1: wal Cantwell is extracting these names from this poor young man,

1363
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:34,920
Speaker 1: Kessler's posting them. He's posting their pictures and their legal

1364
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:38,519
Speaker 1: names and describing their involvement. These people who are not

1365
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:40,759
Speaker 1: party to this lawsuit. And there's no way to interpret

1366
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 1: that other than as as a vehicle for harassment. Um.

1367
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:46,800
Speaker 1: So there's I think there will be there will be

1368
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:49,240
Speaker 1: collateral damage of this lawsuit, but I hope that it

1369
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:54,400
Speaker 1: does um have the intended deterrent effect. Right, Um, sorry

1370
01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:58,000
Speaker 1: to be talking at length for a while, but just insummation, insummation,

1371
01:21:58,040 --> 01:22:01,840
Speaker 1: I think, um. Inside the courtroom, this is the case

1372
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,000
Speaker 1: about damages. Right. The judge is very clear that like,

1373
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:07,280
Speaker 1: stop talking about broader societal impact. You can't tell the

1374
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:09,439
Speaker 1: jury about that. That's not relevant to this case. This,

1375
01:22:09,640 --> 01:22:13,360
Speaker 1: legally speaking, is a case about did this thing happen real?

1376
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:15,759
Speaker 1: These people hurt by it? What is the dollar amount

1377
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:20,200
Speaker 1: of their pain? Legally speaking, that's it. But outside the courtroom,

1378
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:22,680
Speaker 1: this is about deterrence, right, This is about setting a

1379
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:25,680
Speaker 1: precedent that if you do this, if you plan a

1380
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:28,599
Speaker 1: rally knowing that the people who come to your rally

1381
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:30,920
Speaker 1: will hurt people because you told them that's the goal. Right,

1382
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:33,960
Speaker 1: Even if you're not the one who swings the stick,

1383
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:36,400
Speaker 1: even if you're not the one pressing the accelerator, you

1384
01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:39,439
Speaker 1: are responsible and you can be held accountable. That as

1385
01:22:39,479 --> 01:22:43,760
Speaker 1: an important message. Yeah, we will, like your life will

1386
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,840
Speaker 1: be ruined if you participate in this ship. That even

1387
01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:48,320
Speaker 1: if you don't have anything for us to take, we

1388
01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:50,400
Speaker 1: will put a garnishment on you that will follow you

1389
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:55,080
Speaker 1: to the fucking grave. Yep. And I think, yeah, that's

1390
01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:57,679
Speaker 1: that's I would agree what I think is important here.

1391
01:22:58,080 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 1: Um Molly, I think that's that's everything. For now. We're

1392
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:02,760
Speaker 1: still how much how much longer do we have to

1393
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:08,519
Speaker 1: go through this the court, Well, it's scheduled for four weeks.

1394
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:13,920
Speaker 1: It's been one and a half. And there was there

1395
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:16,880
Speaker 1: was some some anxiety and handwringing about how maybe four

1396
01:23:16,920 --> 01:23:22,559
Speaker 1: weeks won't cut it. Yeah, Jesus, I'm regretting my decision

1397
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:27,759
Speaker 1: to actively live tweets. So like I'm transcribing in real

1398
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:30,959
Speaker 1: time for eight hours a day. It happens your fingers

1399
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:33,479
Speaker 1: are using a laptop. Are you doing it on a phone.

1400
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:35,840
Speaker 1: I'm doing it on a laptop, thank god. So because

1401
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:38,280
Speaker 1: of covid um no one can go into the courthouse

1402
01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:40,320
Speaker 1: because there's so many parties in this case and there's

1403
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:42,799
Speaker 1: the plague, and no one can go into the courthouse

1404
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:45,800
Speaker 1: except for there's there's a press room where fifteen people

1405
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:48,080
Speaker 1: who got pre approved by a federal court can go

1406
01:23:48,120 --> 01:23:50,920
Speaker 1: and sit and look at a monitor. Um, but I'm

1407
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 1: sitting at home. I'm comfy at home, So I'm thank god. Yeah,

1408
01:23:56,040 --> 01:23:57,840
Speaker 1: that would be and I was. I was disappointed. You know,

1409
01:23:57,880 --> 01:23:59,679
Speaker 1: I kind of wanted to see I love to see

1410
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:03,000
Speaker 1: a love a courtroom ambiance. But I'll be honest. Word,

1411
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:06,320
Speaker 1: I'm way less worried about getting stabbed here at home.

1412
01:24:07,800 --> 01:24:11,360
Speaker 1: That is true. That is true. People are less likely

1413
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:13,880
Speaker 1: to get stabbed at home or more likely one of

1414
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:17,400
Speaker 1: the two. Um, I don't know. Uh. Tell us in

1415
01:24:17,439 --> 01:24:19,720
Speaker 1: the comments where you think people are most likely to

1416
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:24,960
Speaker 1: get stabbed. Uh and um Molly, thank you so much.

1417
01:24:25,040 --> 01:24:27,280
Speaker 1: Thank you both for what you're doing for coming on

1418
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:30,839
Speaker 1: the show. Is there anywhere the listeners can find slash

1419
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:36,280
Speaker 1: support you? Would you like people to mail you knives? What?

1420
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:39,080
Speaker 1: Oh mail me knives? Yeah, but not as a threat,

1421
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:43,040
Speaker 1: like as a fun thing, fun knives for fun. I

1422
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:46,360
Speaker 1: did get a large machete in the mail the other day,

1423
01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:49,360
Speaker 1: and before I saw the little gift note, I was confused.

1424
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:52,640
Speaker 1: Oh good, okay, I'm glad you're getting a gift machetes.

1425
01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:56,439
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. My my friendship is a sheep farmer in

1426
01:24:56,479 --> 01:25:01,519
Speaker 1: North Carolina sent me a large blade. Good. Uh no.

1427
01:25:01,640 --> 01:25:04,599
Speaker 1: But so if you're interested in reading moment by moment

1428
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:10,759
Speaker 1: live transcription of people screaming Holocaust denial at a federal judge, um,

1429
01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:13,480
Speaker 1: you can check me out on Twitter. That's at Socialist

1430
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:16,120
Speaker 1: Dog mom. That's what happens when you make a little

1431
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:19,320
Speaker 1: joke with your friends, when you have five followers and um,

1432
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:23,679
Speaker 1: and then you end up using it professionally. The national

1433
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:27,200
Speaker 1: news repeatedly, I don't. Then people are posting your mug

1434
01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:30,320
Speaker 1: shot making fun of you using your bullshit mug shot.

1435
01:25:31,479 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 1: You look great, but it's bullshit. Um, nobody looks good

1436
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:37,439
Speaker 1: after they get left in a hot van like a dog.

1437
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah that's true. Well, Molly, that's gonna be the end

1438
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:48,640
Speaker 1: of the episode. So why don't we Why don't we

1439
01:25:49,360 --> 01:25:53,600
Speaker 1: sing a song and and and roll out? Hopefully not

1440
01:25:53,720 --> 01:25:57,000
Speaker 1: the song that Heimbuch included in his Christmas letter to

1441
01:25:57,080 --> 01:25:59,760
Speaker 1: James Fields in prison. Oh god, that must have been

1442
01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:04,519
Speaker 1: really a special. Jeez, I'll have to look that up.

1443
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:08,160
Speaker 1: I did come across in my um my browsing through

1444
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 1: Fascist Telegram the other week, an entire album, dozens of

1445
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 1: songs that we're all Nazi covers of Blink one eight

1446
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:21,080
Speaker 1: two's entire discography, everything, everything, And they called it, of course,

1447
01:26:21,080 --> 01:26:27,240
Speaker 1: they called it Blink likely of course it was. I

1448
01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:29,720
Speaker 1: don't I don't even know, like, I don't even know

1449
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 1: like how to talk about that. It was just the

1450
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 1: thing that I found. Do you know hampt Install, the

1451
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:39,360
Speaker 1: guy who studies malicious Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's got

1452
01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:43,639
Speaker 1: a particular fascination with white power wrap. Oh god. Yeah.

1453
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:46,320
Speaker 1: It's never a good although there was a there was

1454
01:26:46,320 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 1: a fun in one of the h Bomber Guy videos.

1455
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:51,840
Speaker 1: He found finds this flat earth Nazi who has a

1456
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:57,639
Speaker 1: rap that's amazing. Alright, alright, partial, I'm partial to can't

1457
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:04,479
Speaker 1: wells distracts. Yeah, Chris Campbell, Well, thank you, Molly and

1458
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:09,840
Speaker 1: uh off we go into the wild blue yonder. I'm

1459
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 1: gonna go smoke some legal weed and fall asleep, face down,

1460
01:27:13,200 --> 01:27:16,040
Speaker 1: hopefully not thinking about this trial. I am not going

1461
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:20,559
Speaker 1: to smoke some legal weed, because that's federally a crime. Molly.

1462
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:23,360
Speaker 1: I have a good day, Molly. Thank you all for listening.

1463
01:27:38,439 --> 01:27:41,679
Speaker 1: Welcome back to It Could Happen here, the podcast that

1464
01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:46,120
Speaker 1: is occasionally introduced competently as it sort of was today

1465
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:50,040
Speaker 1: because our guest today is someone who is very near

1466
01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:54,400
Speaker 1: and dear uh to me and to like almost every

1467
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:58,840
Speaker 1: other person that I know and work with. Um, Moira

1468
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:04,679
Speaker 1: Meltzer Cohen. You are a lawyer focusing on civil rights

1469
01:28:04,680 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 1: and movement kind of cases. Uh. And you are the

1470
01:28:07,479 --> 01:28:16,120
Speaker 1: lawyer of yeah, like every everybody I respect in the world. Yeah. Um,

1471
01:28:16,160 --> 01:28:18,760
Speaker 1: you're the person that I text whenever I need to know, Hey,

1472
01:28:19,400 --> 01:28:23,479
Speaker 1: was this a crime? Um? Or it never is and

1473
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:27,920
Speaker 1: it never is. I'm law abiding, very law abiding. Um

1474
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:31,320
Speaker 1: and uh. Yeah, we wanted to have you on both

1475
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:34,960
Speaker 1: because you're always a breath of sunshine and because um,

1476
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:37,240
Speaker 1: there's some like law stuff happening these days. We just

1477
01:28:37,320 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 1: had um our mutual friend Molly Conjure on to talk

1478
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:44,320
Speaker 1: about the Charlottesville case, which is quite a thing. Today

1479
01:28:44,439 --> 01:28:48,439
Speaker 1: was the day. Yeah. Today today had some had some moments.

1480
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:53,639
Speaker 1: Chris Cantwell and Richard Spencer representing themselves separately, each cross

1481
01:28:53,680 --> 01:29:00,240
Speaker 1: examining each other I'd have so many thoughts. Mostly my

1482
01:29:00,400 --> 01:29:05,840
Speaker 1: thoughts involved laughing. It's very very funny. It's it's it's

1483
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 1: the funniest of an incredibly tragic and infuriating situation. Something

1484
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:15,040
Speaker 1: funny finally happened. Um, So at least there's that often

1485
01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:20,719
Speaker 1: very funny in spite of himself. Yeah, Um, I would

1486
01:29:20,720 --> 01:29:22,479
Speaker 1: love one day to just get you on and duo,

1487
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:24,680
Speaker 1: we can do a reading of some of Chris Cantwell's

1488
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:29,719
Speaker 1: better legal filings. Um. These guys quite the legal mind, Robert.

1489
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 1: I think I maybe didn't ever tell you about the

1490
01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:38,840
Speaker 1: fact that we um did a Poorams Feel, which is

1491
01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:43,360
Speaker 1: a performance of the story of Esther Um Oh my God,

1492
01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:47,960
Speaker 1: traditionally done at Poor Ram, which is a Jewish holiday Um.

1493
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:51,400
Speaker 1: And it was based on the complaint that he filed.

1494
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:58,320
Speaker 1: Oh my God, those of you what are the third

1495
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:03,280
Speaker 1: was promin ly featured in the role of Hayman. For

1496
01:30:03,320 --> 01:30:05,759
Speaker 1: those of you who don't know, Chris Cantwell, the crying

1497
01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:09,000
Speaker 1: Nazi from the Unite the Right rally, has been incarcerated

1498
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:11,880
Speaker 1: for a year or so now um and continues to

1499
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:16,160
Speaker 1: put out his own legal motions, generally handwritten UM, alleging

1500
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:18,920
Speaker 1: all kinds of conspiracies from the people who did not

1501
01:30:19,360 --> 01:30:23,439
Speaker 1: call the FBI and admit to committing several crimes. We should,

1502
01:30:23,479 --> 01:30:26,400
Speaker 1: we should absolutely absolutely do a crossover with Daniel Harper

1503
01:30:26,960 --> 01:30:32,679
Speaker 1: um and to discuss Wells legal genius. But but today

1504
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:34,720
Speaker 1: more we wanted to have you on because there is

1505
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:38,920
Speaker 1: another case that a lot of folks are rightly concerned about,

1506
01:30:38,960 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 1: because it has some pretty dire implications depending on how

1507
01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:45,000
Speaker 1: it goes in a number of ways, the trial of

1508
01:30:45,120 --> 01:30:49,240
Speaker 1: Kyle Rittenhouse. Um. For the I mean, everyone knows Kyle

1509
01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:53,000
Speaker 1: Rittenhouse took a gun illegally across state lines to a

1510
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:55,960
Speaker 1: protest so he might have the chance to shoot people. Um,

1511
01:30:56,080 --> 01:30:59,280
Speaker 1: and then shot people. This is my opinion about what happened. Obviously,

1512
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:03,000
Speaker 1: the legal case is unfolding. Um. There's been a lot

1513
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:06,760
Speaker 1: of talk online on on Twitter and whatnot about how

1514
01:31:06,800 --> 01:31:09,400
Speaker 1: obviously unfair the judges being. This is what the talk

1515
01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:12,519
Speaker 1: on Twitter is about, and it's because of a couple

1516
01:31:12,560 --> 01:31:15,280
Speaker 1: of things. One is that the judge and and again

1517
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:17,719
Speaker 1: I'm before I cut, I go to you, Moira. I'm

1518
01:31:17,760 --> 01:31:19,680
Speaker 1: just explaining kind of the way the discourse has been.

1519
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:22,280
Speaker 1: The discourse has stated like, well, the judge said, you

1520
01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:24,519
Speaker 1: can't call Kyle. You can't call the people that he

1521
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:27,560
Speaker 1: killed victims, but you can call the people that he

1522
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:30,880
Speaker 1: killed looters and arsonists. UM. And so people are saying,

1523
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:33,679
Speaker 1: look at this very clear example of how how bad

1524
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:36,760
Speaker 1: the justice system is, UM, and I wanted to bring

1525
01:31:36,800 --> 01:31:38,840
Speaker 1: you on for a number of reasons, including the fact that,

1526
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:41,639
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of stuff that seems fucked up

1527
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:44,240
Speaker 1: and in fact is fucked up, you could argue, but

1528
01:31:44,240 --> 01:31:47,640
Speaker 1: it's also like like pretty normal justice system stuff and

1529
01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:50,519
Speaker 1: some stuff that seems fucked up but actually isn't. This

1530
01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:53,080
Speaker 1: is not I'm not necessarily talking about the Rittenhouse case here,

1531
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:55,040
Speaker 1: just in general, and we talk about the law. So

1532
01:31:55,120 --> 01:31:57,320
Speaker 1: I guess I wanted to have you on to explain

1533
01:31:57,360 --> 01:32:02,639
Speaker 1: to us what's happening in your opinion and how normal, abnormal, good,

1534
01:32:02,680 --> 01:32:04,760
Speaker 1: bad are kind of the things that we're seeing, the

1535
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:08,120
Speaker 1: decisions we're seeing this judge make UM in this case

1536
01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:12,760
Speaker 1: so far, Yeah, sure, absolutely so. The trial, UM. I

1537
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:16,719
Speaker 1: think when you asked me to comment on this, UM,

1538
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:20,280
Speaker 1: the trial had not started. The trial has now started.

1539
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:25,320
Speaker 1: It has been characterized by the defense saying the N

1540
01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:32,920
Speaker 1: word be here this morning, I think was dismissed for

1541
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:38,000
Speaker 1: making a cruel and nakedly racist joke. Uh. And apparently

1542
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:40,879
Speaker 1: the judge had a fit of peak about the media's

1543
01:32:40,920 --> 01:32:44,320
Speaker 1: response to his evidentiary rulings, which are what you've asked

1544
01:32:44,320 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 1: me to come discuss, um, which is itself actually one

1545
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:53,040
Speaker 1: of the more unusual things about this how this trial

1546
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:56,559
Speaker 1: is going. UM. It's always a little bit hard for

1547
01:32:56,600 --> 01:33:00,759
Speaker 1: me to opine on a case that is not my case. UM.

1548
01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:06,080
Speaker 1: I feel tentative about it. UM. This would never be

1549
01:33:06,240 --> 01:33:09,360
Speaker 1: my case because I would not represent a white supremacist,

1550
01:33:09,479 --> 01:33:12,680
Speaker 1: and I am not a prosecutor and would never be

1551
01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:17,320
Speaker 1: a prosecutor. And I was not able to look at

1552
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:23,320
Speaker 1: the briefing because although all of the briefing was ostensibly

1553
01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:28,479
Speaker 1: publicly filed, it is not actually publicly available. UM. I

1554
01:33:28,520 --> 01:33:31,200
Speaker 1: had a very interesting conversation with the Clerk of court

1555
01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:35,120
Speaker 1: and Kenosha, who told me that if I mailed her

1556
01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:39,479
Speaker 1: a request, she would fax me the briefing at a

1557
01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:41,800
Speaker 1: dollar twenty five a page. And I said, thank you

1558
01:33:41,920 --> 01:33:45,960
Speaker 1: very much, goodbye. UM. So I'll do my best to

1559
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:50,000
Speaker 1: speak to these rulings, UM, and the sort of larger

1560
01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:52,760
Speaker 1: issues as I see them. UM. As you noted, there's

1561
01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:55,280
Speaker 1: been a lot of kind of salacious headlines about the

1562
01:33:55,320 --> 01:33:58,879
Speaker 1: evidential in this case, UM, And I think those headlines

1563
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:02,920
Speaker 1: are really they're less about what's actually happening in the case,

1564
01:34:02,960 --> 01:34:05,280
Speaker 1: and they're more reflective of the sort of pearl clutching

1565
01:34:06,160 --> 01:34:10,719
Speaker 1: UM liberal impulse to to notice the totally self evident

1566
01:34:10,840 --> 01:34:14,879
Speaker 1: hypocrisy of the legal system uh, and then to conclude

1567
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:18,599
Speaker 1: that because certain groups are shown more leniency, the way

1568
01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:21,840
Speaker 1: to resolve this hypocrisy is to make sure everyone is

1569
01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:26,920
Speaker 1: pleased and prosecuted and punished as viciously as the left is,

1570
01:34:27,280 --> 01:34:33,040
Speaker 1: which is not actually the goal that I have. UM.

1571
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:35,760
Speaker 1: And just to clarify when I when I talk about

1572
01:34:35,840 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 1: liberals as I as I will probably do a little bit, UM,

1573
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:43,960
Speaker 1: I don't mean like I mean liberal as opposed to

1574
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 1: radical UM. People who are more or less okay with

1575
01:34:47,320 --> 01:34:52,520
Speaker 1: the underlying big systems uh, like capitalism and like dipremacy

1576
01:34:52,600 --> 01:34:57,120
Speaker 1: and hetero patriarchy and like maybe are more concerned with

1577
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:00,679
Speaker 1: the iterations of those things that are particular league ghosh,

1578
01:35:00,840 --> 01:35:04,639
Speaker 1: but they don't actually mind the systems themselves that or

1579
01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:09,000
Speaker 1: the way that those systems are reiterated and enforced by,

1580
01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:14,960
Speaker 1: for example, the American criminal legal system. UM. So you know,

1581
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:17,840
Speaker 1: I think the kind of liberal read on these rulings

1582
01:35:18,160 --> 01:35:22,760
Speaker 1: is not only not legally sound, UM, I think it's

1583
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:28,280
Speaker 1: actually incredibly dangerous. And it's watching this unfold and watching

1584
01:35:28,320 --> 01:35:31,120
Speaker 1: the liberal commentary on it, I think is one of

1585
01:35:31,160 --> 01:35:33,080
Speaker 1: the things. It's one of the ways that I can

1586
01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:39,719
Speaker 1: really see liberal liberals and liberalism losing credibility. Um, because

1587
01:35:40,640 --> 01:35:43,880
Speaker 1: because they're sort of calling out this hypocrisy, and at

1588
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:45,559
Speaker 1: the same time there's a little bit of a double

1589
01:35:45,600 --> 01:35:48,920
Speaker 1: standard that they want to um, that they want to

1590
01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:52,280
Speaker 1: propose and enforce. UM. So okay, so I'll talk about

1591
01:35:52,320 --> 01:35:55,000
Speaker 1: the rulings that you discussed. Um. The first one is

1592
01:35:55,040 --> 01:35:58,800
Speaker 1: that the judge um, so that the prosecution is not

1593
01:35:58,840 --> 01:36:03,240
Speaker 1: allowed to refer to the people are writtenhouse killed as victims. UM.

1594
01:36:03,280 --> 01:36:06,400
Speaker 1: I will remind you, as I remind all of my

1595
01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:11,960
Speaker 1: clients continuously, UM, that the law is at best adjacent

1596
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:18,120
Speaker 1: to common sense understandings of justice and even frankly common

1597
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:23,040
Speaker 1: sense understandings of reality. UM. Obviously, the people that Kyle

1598
01:36:23,120 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 1: Rittenhow's killed were victims. UM. But as my beloved colleague

1599
01:36:29,360 --> 01:36:35,919
Speaker 1: Sandy reminded me, uh, the concept of victimhood, the status

1600
01:36:35,960 --> 01:36:38,920
Speaker 1: of victimhood is among the things that needs to be

1601
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:43,360
Speaker 1: proven beyond a reasonable doubt at this trial, right, um.

1602
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:48,160
Speaker 1: And so in in fact, this is a totally straightforward ruling.

1603
01:36:49,160 --> 01:36:51,439
Speaker 1: Is a ruling that I would argue for as a

1604
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:55,080
Speaker 1: defense attorney and that I expect to win where I

1605
01:36:55,200 --> 01:37:01,200
Speaker 1: trying in murder case. So you know, it's one of

1606
01:37:01,240 --> 01:37:05,479
Speaker 1: those things like you have to overcome this, this you

1607
01:37:05,520 --> 01:37:07,840
Speaker 1: have to overcome when you're thinking about a trial, like

1608
01:37:07,920 --> 01:37:10,599
Speaker 1: the fact that you know he's guilty, because the point

1609
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:14,400
Speaker 1: of a trial is that everyone like there's a process, right,

1610
01:37:14,439 --> 01:37:17,839
Speaker 1: we don't just do street justice because that's what written

1611
01:37:17,840 --> 01:37:22,280
Speaker 1: House did. Um, Like we're we're you have to like

1612
01:37:22,960 --> 01:37:24,920
Speaker 1: one of the It is troubling to me the extent

1613
01:37:24,960 --> 01:37:27,920
Speaker 1: that people are like, well, he he should be presumed

1614
01:37:28,000 --> 01:37:30,400
Speaker 1: like we should be referring to the people he shot

1615
01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:33,559
Speaker 1: as victims before he has been adjudicated as guilty, because

1616
01:37:33,560 --> 01:37:37,479
Speaker 1: like that's that's important, Like the presumption of innocence matters,

1617
01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:40,760
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's also something that's very unfair, Like

1618
01:37:40,840 --> 01:37:45,640
Speaker 1: there's a person in Portland, Alexander Dial, who got in

1619
01:37:45,760 --> 01:37:48,120
Speaker 1: trouble for taking a hammer out of a Nazis hand

1620
01:37:48,200 --> 01:37:52,000
Speaker 1: during a rally UM, and has been charged with several felonies,

1621
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:54,080
Speaker 1: and because his trial kept getting delay, spent two and

1622
01:37:54,120 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 1: a half years under pre trial conditions. So the presumption

1623
01:37:56,920 --> 01:38:02,560
Speaker 1: of innocence is hardly equal, but it is important. Yeah, exactly,

1624
01:38:02,600 --> 01:38:06,720
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, we'll talk about this,

1625
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:09,719
Speaker 1: I think in a little bit, but that's exactly the issue, right,

1626
01:38:09,840 --> 01:38:15,320
Speaker 1: is that, UM, we need to be enforcing the equal

1627
01:38:15,360 --> 01:38:19,920
Speaker 1: application of the presumption of innocence, not being you know,

1628
01:38:20,080 --> 01:38:23,720
Speaker 1: rapidly going after the right in the same way that

1629
01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:28,040
Speaker 1: we are used to uh, law enforcement and the judiciary

1630
01:38:28,080 --> 01:38:31,880
Speaker 1: going after the left. Um. The other ruling that the

1631
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:37,280
Speaker 1: judge made, UM, which you mentioned, was that he said

1632
01:38:37,320 --> 01:38:41,240
Speaker 1: that the defense is authorized to characterize the people that

1633
01:38:41,280 --> 01:38:44,519
Speaker 1: written house killed as looters or rioters if there's evidence

1634
01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:47,080
Speaker 1: presented that they were in fact looting and or rioting.

1635
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:51,040
Speaker 1: I would, if I were, you know, in this case,

1636
01:38:51,080 --> 01:38:54,640
Speaker 1: which of course i'm not, I would object to this

1637
01:38:54,760 --> 01:38:58,519
Speaker 1: on the grounds that it is prejudicial and bullshit, and

1638
01:38:59,560 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 1: it's fun up in bullshit. Yeah, yes, that said, I

1639
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:06,599
Speaker 1: am not super surprised by that ruling. UM. I would

1640
01:39:06,640 --> 01:39:10,360
Speaker 1: say it's likely within the sound discretion of the judge

1641
01:39:10,800 --> 01:39:13,559
Speaker 1: and if you know, and if the prosecution disagrees, it's

1642
01:39:13,560 --> 01:39:20,080
Speaker 1: a matter for appeal. UM. You know, I think, UM,

1643
01:39:20,120 --> 01:39:23,000
Speaker 1: one of the things that judge said about this, actually

1644
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:27,479
Speaker 1: that I think is really important and correct, UM, is

1645
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:31,479
Speaker 1: that he has uh a tremendous amount of discretion in

1646
01:39:31,560 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 1: making evidentiary rulings. Rulings. UM. One of the rulings he

1647
01:39:35,600 --> 01:39:40,920
Speaker 1: made was that he's admitting the testimony of an expert witness, UM,

1648
01:39:40,960 --> 01:39:43,679
Speaker 1: which you know, I think a lot of people are

1649
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:48,240
Speaker 1: also quite upset about. UM. But that said, again, this

1650
01:39:48,320 --> 01:39:51,040
Speaker 1: is not that unusual, and it's very difficult for him

1651
01:39:51,080 --> 01:39:54,280
Speaker 1: to deny that motion to have his evidence or his

1652
01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:59,439
Speaker 1: testimony admitted, because the prosecution routinely uses use of for

1653
01:39:59,600 --> 01:40:04,679
Speaker 1: sex words in similar trials. UM. So now we're they're

1654
01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:09,120
Speaker 1: just on the other side of the table. Yeah. So

1655
01:40:09,400 --> 01:40:12,240
Speaker 1: you know, first of all, I get that these rulings

1656
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:17,160
Speaker 1: don't make us feel good, UM, but they aren't that strange.

1657
01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:20,600
Speaker 1: And as I said, the judge has tremendous discretion in

1658
01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:24,479
Speaker 1: these matters. UM. I was thinking about how to illustrate this,

1659
01:40:24,520 --> 01:40:26,280
Speaker 1: and it occurred to me that I think the last

1660
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:29,360
Speaker 1: time I was on one of your podcasts, you asked

1661
01:40:29,360 --> 01:40:34,120
Speaker 1: me whether cocaine was illegal? Yeah, what are we landing

1662
01:40:34,160 --> 01:40:36,479
Speaker 1: on that? By the way, so I think the first

1663
01:40:36,479 --> 01:40:39,280
Speaker 1: time you asked me, I was a total kill joy

1664
01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:43,680
Speaker 1: and was like, of course, it's a legal proverb. Um.

1665
01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:46,160
Speaker 1: But if I had actually taken your question more seriously,

1666
01:40:46,200 --> 01:40:51,760
Speaker 1: I think a better answer probably would have been nobody knows, um.

1667
01:40:51,760 --> 01:40:55,599
Speaker 1: For precisely this reason, because the real question is not

1668
01:40:55,720 --> 01:41:01,599
Speaker 1: what the law says. The real question is how, or whether,

1669
01:41:02,080 --> 01:41:05,040
Speaker 1: or against whom, or to what degree and under what

1670
01:41:05,160 --> 01:41:09,800
Speaker 1: circumstances will that law be enforced? And right? These are

1671
01:41:09,920 --> 01:41:13,040
Speaker 1: always open questions and arguments, and judges have a ton

1672
01:41:13,120 --> 01:41:17,280
Speaker 1: of power. This case is no exception. So you know, again,

1673
01:41:17,320 --> 01:41:19,960
Speaker 1: not only are these rulings pretty standard, but there I

1674
01:41:20,000 --> 01:41:23,400
Speaker 1: think within the judge's discretions some of them I really dislike.

1675
01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:27,960
Speaker 1: Some of them make total sense to me. Um, And

1676
01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 1: I think that what is happening is is not necessarily

1677
01:41:32,960 --> 01:41:36,760
Speaker 1: sound legal analysis. But liberals sort of trying to argue

1678
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:40,920
Speaker 1: that Writtenhouse should be more harshly prosecuted by saying that

1679
01:41:41,040 --> 01:41:44,400
Speaker 1: these specific rulings are unfair or unusual. It's a little

1680
01:41:44,439 --> 01:41:47,840
Speaker 1: bit like the liberals crying out now because people are

1681
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:50,479
Speaker 1: putting like, let's go brandon on printing it on rifle

1682
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:53,680
Speaker 1: receivers and saying like, well, the Secret Service should investigate it. Well,

1683
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:56,120
Speaker 1: if they do that, then some then like thirty if

1684
01:41:56,120 --> 01:41:58,439
Speaker 1: they do that, and like one company gets a fine,

1685
01:41:58,840 --> 01:42:01,040
Speaker 1: forty people are going to go prison for having red

1686
01:42:01,080 --> 01:42:03,559
Speaker 1: flags on their body armor. Like that's the way it

1687
01:42:03,680 --> 01:42:07,000
Speaker 1: works in this country. But the right thing, Yeah, any

1688
01:42:07,080 --> 01:42:09,240
Speaker 1: any anarchists for the three D printers can to immediately

1689
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:14,559
Speaker 1: go to jail. Yeah that's not like that is correct. Yeah. So,

1690
01:42:14,640 --> 01:42:16,639
Speaker 1: I guess the thing that I want to point out

1691
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:19,360
Speaker 1: here is that what is actually unusual about this case

1692
01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:22,240
Speaker 1: is not these rulings. It is that Written House is

1693
01:42:22,400 --> 01:42:26,280
Speaker 1: going to trial at all. And the reason Written House

1694
01:42:26,400 --> 01:42:28,599
Speaker 1: is going to trial is able to go to trial

1695
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:33,360
Speaker 1: is largely because this prosecution is fundamentally calculated not to

1696
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:36,920
Speaker 1: be repressive. Um So, I want to kind of zoom

1697
01:42:36,960 --> 01:42:41,360
Speaker 1: out and get away from the weeds of the evidentiary rulings.

1698
01:42:42,120 --> 01:42:46,240
Speaker 1: Um So, in its simplest expression, when we talk about

1699
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:52,679
Speaker 1: the difference between state and federal jurisdiction, we're saying kind of, um,

1700
01:42:53,080 --> 01:42:58,240
Speaker 1: jurisdiction for dummies. Uh, Overly simplified is stuff that happens

1701
01:42:58,280 --> 01:43:02,720
Speaker 1: inside or only impact a given state is typically prosecuted

1702
01:43:02,720 --> 01:43:06,280
Speaker 1: by the state and if it impacts if your offense

1703
01:43:06,400 --> 01:43:11,880
Speaker 1: conduct or alleged offense conduct impacts more than one state, UM,

1704
01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:16,160
Speaker 1: then it is or can be prosecuted by the federal

1705
01:43:16,160 --> 01:43:21,640
Speaker 1: Department of Justice. So Kyle Rittenhouse crusts state lines with

1706
01:43:21,760 --> 01:43:26,280
Speaker 1: a pretty serious firearm and he shot three people. This

1707
01:43:27,080 --> 01:43:32,320
Speaker 1: puts us immediately into federal jurisdiction land. Um. He did

1708
01:43:32,360 --> 01:43:35,080
Speaker 1: this in the context of an uprising for racial justice

1709
01:43:35,200 --> 01:43:38,040
Speaker 1: that has been characterized by the fact that those rising

1710
01:43:38,160 --> 01:43:41,320
Speaker 1: up on the side of racial justice have been subject

1711
01:43:41,360 --> 01:43:45,040
Speaker 1: to intense repression by the federal government. D o J

1712
01:43:45,240 --> 01:43:49,760
Speaker 1: has shown themselves to be fire breathingly enthusiastic of omicizing

1713
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:55,000
Speaker 1: their jurisdiction over heaty offenses based on totally tenuous grounds

1714
01:43:55,640 --> 01:44:00,479
Speaker 1: um for people on the left or who are received

1715
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:03,519
Speaker 1: to be on the left. UM. D o J has

1716
01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:08,360
Speaker 1: asserted jurisdiction in order to prosecute people for um absolutely

1717
01:44:08,400 --> 01:44:12,720
Speaker 1: trivial but politically motivated offenses that would be left to

1718
01:44:13,040 --> 01:44:18,240
Speaker 1: the state to prosecute absent the politics of the accused. UM.

1719
01:44:18,360 --> 01:44:22,800
Speaker 1: They have a certain federal jurisdiction on really flimsy bases

1720
01:44:22,840 --> 01:44:27,920
Speaker 1: like that a local police building or vehicle um belongs

1721
01:44:27,960 --> 01:44:30,839
Speaker 1: to an apartment that has received federal funding, so property

1722
01:44:30,920 --> 01:44:34,720
Speaker 1: damage against it becomes a federal offense. One thing they're

1723
01:44:34,720 --> 01:44:37,360
Speaker 1: doing that is unusual is the federal government is a

1724
01:44:37,479 --> 01:44:41,679
Speaker 1: certain concurrent jurisdiction to prosecute offenses. So I know there's

1725
01:44:41,720 --> 01:44:47,680
Speaker 1: someone in Courtland who is simultaneously being prosecuted by multnoma

1726
01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:53,360
Speaker 1: and also the federal government UM for allegedly throwing some

1727
01:44:53,439 --> 01:44:58,720
Speaker 1: accelerant on a police building. UM. Right, So it is

1728
01:44:58,880 --> 01:45:03,719
Speaker 1: very curious that written House, who quite clearly did something

1729
01:45:03,760 --> 01:45:08,360
Speaker 1: that would you know, fall under federal jurisdiction, is not

1730
01:45:08,479 --> 01:45:12,000
Speaker 1: being federally charged. And it matters a lot for how

1731
01:45:12,040 --> 01:45:17,440
Speaker 1: the case proceeds, UM, because the way that federal prosecutions

1732
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:24,400
Speaker 1: operate is that the Feds will typically stack these indictments

1733
01:45:24,720 --> 01:45:28,680
Speaker 1: UM in a way that really puts tremendous pressure on

1734
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:32,439
Speaker 1: them to plead guilty UM, which is not typically the

1735
01:45:32,479 --> 01:45:35,200
Speaker 1: case or it doesn't happen in the same way in

1736
01:45:35,200 --> 01:45:40,240
Speaker 1: a state prosecution. So UM, you have these stacked indictments

1737
01:45:40,240 --> 01:45:45,519
Speaker 1: with multiple multiple counts ranging you know, all all kinds

1738
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:49,960
Speaker 1: of conduct um, often involving you know, a conspiracy, which

1739
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:53,080
Speaker 1: can be very very easy to prove UM and a

1740
01:45:53,120 --> 01:45:56,080
Speaker 1: guilty finding on any of those counts could be like

1741
01:45:56,120 --> 01:45:59,280
Speaker 1: a mandatory minimum of five to ten years. And then

1742
01:45:59,320 --> 01:46:02,400
Speaker 1: if you're looking at, um, you know, a guilty on

1743
01:46:02,920 --> 01:46:06,000
Speaker 1: more than one or all of those counts, you're looking

1744
01:46:06,040 --> 01:46:10,800
Speaker 1: at a sentence potentially concurrent sentences that our tantamount to

1745
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:16,400
Speaker 1: dying in prison. Right. And so this creates tremendous pressure

1746
01:46:16,439 --> 01:46:20,880
Speaker 1: on federal defendants to negotiate a pre trial disposition to

1747
01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:25,120
Speaker 1: take a guilty plea UM. So again, Kyle Rittenhouse crosses

1748
01:46:25,200 --> 01:46:28,840
Speaker 1: same lines with this firearm which gets used in the

1749
01:46:28,960 --> 01:46:32,120
Speaker 1: in the commission of an act of violence. And I

1750
01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:36,080
Speaker 1: feel extremely confident that any federal prosecutor could come up

1751
01:46:36,120 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 1: with a stack of counts against him within about ten

1752
01:46:39,960 --> 01:46:47,040
Speaker 1: minutes without breaking a sweat um. But you know, so

1753
01:46:47,320 --> 01:46:49,519
Speaker 1: you know, if you think about him being in that position,

1754
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:53,880
Speaker 1: you think through, Okay, if I go to trial, what

1755
01:46:54,120 --> 01:46:59,200
Speaker 1: is what are likely outcomes if Kyle Rittenhouse went to

1756
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:04,520
Speaker 1: trial federally, and even if he prevailed on a self

1757
01:47:04,600 --> 01:47:09,080
Speaker 1: defense right, which which could happen if you were found

1758
01:47:09,080 --> 01:47:13,080
Speaker 1: guilty on one or more of the lesser charges, he

1759
01:47:13,160 --> 01:47:17,479
Speaker 1: would still be looking at really really serious time. Right,

1760
01:47:17,800 --> 01:47:21,920
Speaker 1: But that's not where we are, right, Um, we are

1761
01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:25,440
Speaker 1: in a really weird place where like, in a federal context,

1762
01:47:26,160 --> 01:47:31,599
Speaker 1: we wouldn't even be like talking about evidentiary rulings because uh,

1763
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:35,719
Speaker 1: he would almost certainly not be going to trial, right

1764
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:41,559
Speaker 1: or you know, if he had a reasonable lawyer, he

1765
01:47:41,600 --> 01:47:44,960
Speaker 1: would probably be negotiating a plea. I'm curious what do

1766
01:47:45,000 --> 01:47:47,080
Speaker 1: you think about because one argument I've heard, and I'm

1767
01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:49,920
Speaker 1: certainly in no position to evaluate this personally, is that

1768
01:47:50,439 --> 01:47:53,439
Speaker 1: if federal charges had been placed on him, you know,

1769
01:47:53,800 --> 01:47:58,360
Speaker 1: when the crime in Trump would have pardoned him. Um,

1770
01:47:58,840 --> 01:48:01,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, Like I've heard people argue that

1771
01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:02,880
Speaker 1: that like, well, at least with the state charges, he

1772
01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:05,600
Speaker 1: can't be pardoned by President Trump. Like, I'm in no

1773
01:48:05,680 --> 01:48:08,120
Speaker 1: position to really evaluate that, but I'm curious what you

1774
01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:13,400
Speaker 1: think about that. Hey, honestly can't even yeah, speculate about

1775
01:48:13,840 --> 01:48:17,160
Speaker 1: what might have happened. That is very interesting. I do

1776
01:48:17,240 --> 01:48:19,760
Speaker 1: think that if if d O J wanted to charge

1777
01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:24,960
Speaker 1: him at this point, I mean not, but like there

1778
01:48:25,840 --> 01:48:30,400
Speaker 1: I think wasn't opening for that to happen after Trump

1779
01:48:30,479 --> 01:48:33,920
Speaker 1: left I seat. There is a very interesting foy A

1780
01:48:34,040 --> 01:48:37,000
Speaker 1: request to be made to d O j UH to

1781
01:48:37,320 --> 01:48:40,960
Speaker 1: see what kind of memo was circulated about whether or

1782
01:48:41,000 --> 01:48:44,000
Speaker 1: not they were going to pick this one up. They

1783
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:49,080
Speaker 1: clearly declined to prosecute Um. I the only thing that

1784
01:48:49,160 --> 01:48:50,960
Speaker 1: I could come up with, to be honest, And I

1785
01:48:51,479 --> 01:48:54,680
Speaker 1: looked and did not really see any meaningful discussion of this,

1786
01:48:55,080 --> 01:49:01,000
Speaker 1: of their decision not to prosecute um. The only thing

1787
01:49:01,200 --> 01:49:03,479
Speaker 1: that occurred to me is that they might have been

1788
01:49:03,520 --> 01:49:08,240
Speaker 1: reluctant to a search jurisdiction over a minor. But they

1789
01:49:08,280 --> 01:49:11,040
Speaker 1: can prosecute anyone over the age of fifteen as an

1790
01:49:11,080 --> 01:49:13,760
Speaker 1: adult if they engage in violent crimes or if they

1791
01:49:13,760 --> 01:49:16,200
Speaker 1: are alleged to have engaged in violent crimes. So that's

1792
01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:22,599
Speaker 1: not it wouldn't entirely undermine their ability to do so. UM.

1793
01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:26,960
Speaker 1: So you know, for whatever, you know, for whatever reason

1794
01:49:27,160 --> 01:49:30,679
Speaker 1: they didn't, I think it is worth noting. I think

1795
01:49:30,680 --> 01:49:34,400
Speaker 1: it is, as I said, very curious, UM. And it's

1796
01:49:34,439 --> 01:49:37,680
Speaker 1: particularly curious in light of the intense federal repression that

1797
01:49:37,720 --> 01:49:42,320
Speaker 1: has been faced by people perceived to be on the left. Um.

1798
01:49:43,600 --> 01:49:45,920
Speaker 1: You know. So, like again, I want to be very clear,

1799
01:49:46,080 --> 01:49:48,840
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not suggesting that I want him to

1800
01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:53,519
Speaker 1: be federally prosecuted. UM, I don't particularly I'm not interested

1801
01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:58,080
Speaker 1: in arguing for more prosecutions or for making the state

1802
01:49:58,160 --> 01:50:02,760
Speaker 1: the arbiter of political rights business, or giving the state

1803
01:50:02,800 --> 01:50:08,720
Speaker 1: more enforcement power or more resources. Um. You know, but

1804
01:50:09,800 --> 01:50:13,680
Speaker 1: you know, and look at no shade to Kenosha, Wisconsin.

1805
01:50:13,800 --> 01:50:18,120
Speaker 1: All right, But UM. One of the things that the

1806
01:50:18,240 --> 01:50:23,200
Speaker 1: UH federal prosecutors are really have a lot of experience

1807
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:32,439
Speaker 1: doing is digital forensic investigations, and UH, in this case,

1808
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:35,960
Speaker 1: one of the sort of critical questions is did he

1809
01:50:36,040 --> 01:50:40,320
Speaker 1: have specific intent to go across state lines and engage

1810
01:50:40,320 --> 01:50:44,320
Speaker 1: in violence? And I suspect that if you were to

1811
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:49,559
Speaker 1: access all of his texts and metadata and social media posts,

1812
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:55,360
Speaker 1: that you could probably find evidence of that specific intent.

1813
01:50:55,880 --> 01:50:58,439
Speaker 1: And I think that the federal government is probably better

1814
01:50:58,479 --> 01:51:03,840
Speaker 1: positioned to do that than the prosecutors UH in Kenosha.

1815
01:51:05,360 --> 01:51:09,639
Speaker 1: And they decided not to, right, so, you know, and

1816
01:51:10,600 --> 01:51:14,679
Speaker 1: that is exactly the kind of investigation that they mounted

1817
01:51:14,720 --> 01:51:18,040
Speaker 1: against Daniel Baker, who just he's a the yoga teacher

1818
01:51:18,080 --> 01:51:20,880
Speaker 1: in Tallahassee who just got three and a half years

1819
01:51:20,880 --> 01:51:27,920
Speaker 1: for posting vague, sort of incoherent, mutually contradictory kind am

1820
01:51:27,960 --> 01:51:32,479
Speaker 1: not at all frightening. Yeah, it's not that I wouldn't

1821
01:51:32,479 --> 01:51:36,599
Speaker 1: be a characterized as threats, but I hesitate to that.

1822
01:51:37,120 --> 01:51:40,080
Speaker 1: You know, he posted some stuff on social media and

1823
01:51:40,080 --> 01:51:43,800
Speaker 1: and now he's going to do fer. Yeah, my attitude

1824
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:47,240
Speaker 1: on the nature of what he posts that like if

1825
01:51:47,400 --> 01:51:50,160
Speaker 1: prior to his prosecution, you had brought that post. But

1826
01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:52,160
Speaker 1: to me, I said, well, probably not a great idea

1827
01:51:52,200 --> 01:51:55,679
Speaker 1: to post. But also literally every week a right winger

1828
01:51:55,760 --> 01:51:59,640
Speaker 1: in the Portland area posts something significantly more actual. Right now,

1829
01:51:59,680 --> 01:52:03,360
Speaker 1: Chandler Papa's currently being charged with assaulting six police officers

1830
01:52:03,360 --> 01:52:06,479
Speaker 1: in the state capital and Salem just announced that he's

1831
01:52:06,479 --> 01:52:11,080
Speaker 1: doing armed training as a convicted felon outside of Portland,

1832
01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:15,200
Speaker 1: uh later this November. Um, which if he's if he

1833
01:52:15,439 --> 01:52:18,040
Speaker 1: touches a firearm, he should go away, Like based on

1834
01:52:18,080 --> 01:52:19,920
Speaker 1: the letter of the law, he should go to prison

1835
01:52:19,920 --> 01:52:21,960
Speaker 1: for years. Like that's the way the law is written.

1836
01:52:22,360 --> 01:52:24,040
Speaker 1: Nothing's going to happen to him. He's going to get

1837
01:52:24,040 --> 01:52:26,280
Speaker 1: to train people with guns and continue to carry guns.

1838
01:52:26,320 --> 01:52:31,560
Speaker 1: And it's it's fine for him. Um anyway, whatever, I'm sorry,

1839
01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:35,600
Speaker 1: it's Okay, I guess your your listeners can't see that.

1840
01:52:35,640 --> 01:52:41,640
Speaker 1: I have my head. Yeah, yeah, I mean, look what

1841
01:52:41,720 --> 01:52:45,960
Speaker 1: Daniel Baker did us certainly ill advised. If yeah, ill advised,

1842
01:52:46,280 --> 01:52:49,360
Speaker 1: it would characterize it. I have clients who have been

1843
01:52:49,439 --> 01:52:51,680
Speaker 1: visited by the Secret Service or have been visited by

1844
01:52:51,720 --> 01:52:54,840
Speaker 1: the FBI for saying stuff that when they call me

1845
01:52:54,880 --> 01:52:57,400
Speaker 1: and they're like, well, I just said this, and I'm like, yeah,

1846
01:52:57,479 --> 01:52:59,880
Speaker 1: I know that you're not gonna actually do that, but

1847
01:53:00,080 --> 01:53:05,600
Speaker 1: maybe don't you know, it's it's not it's I advised,

1848
01:53:05,680 --> 01:53:09,400
Speaker 1: but it's protected by the very First Amendment more or less.

1849
01:53:09,520 --> 01:53:13,760
Speaker 1: And you know, I've said this before. I don't think

1850
01:53:13,800 --> 01:53:22,000
Speaker 1: the solution to too um being surveilled on social media

1851
01:53:22,200 --> 01:53:24,840
Speaker 1: is self censorship. I think it is courage. But I

1852
01:53:24,880 --> 01:53:28,040
Speaker 1: also think that discretion is the better part of valor.

1853
01:53:28,200 --> 01:53:33,960
Speaker 1: So yes, pick your battles and maybe, yeah, understand that

1854
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:37,800
Speaker 1: it's not fair, you know. Yeah, And also like, what

1855
01:53:37,880 --> 01:53:41,080
Speaker 1: do you gain by you know, being bump stous on

1856
01:53:41,120 --> 01:53:44,320
Speaker 1: the internet. It's one of those things where, yeah, if

1857
01:53:44,320 --> 01:53:48,040
Speaker 1: that guy had had a high dollar lawyer, um, if

1858
01:53:48,040 --> 01:53:50,519
Speaker 1: he if he'd been a rich person, yeah, maybe he

1859
01:53:50,520 --> 01:53:54,120
Speaker 1: would have gotten away with it. Um, who knows, but

1860
01:53:54,200 --> 01:53:56,680
Speaker 1: like he it's it's he certainly would have gotten No.

1861
01:53:56,760 --> 01:53:58,320
Speaker 1: I can certainly say he would have gotten away with

1862
01:53:58,360 --> 01:54:00,560
Speaker 1: it if he'd been a right winger because of you

1863
01:54:00,640 --> 01:54:05,519
Speaker 1: every single day. UM. I can't make any speculation about

1864
01:54:05,520 --> 01:54:08,599
Speaker 1: that particular shase, but I can say that the people

1865
01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:12,160
Speaker 1: who are being surveilled intensely and targeted for that kind

1866
01:54:12,200 --> 01:54:15,280
Speaker 1: of repression are not the people on the right. Um.

1867
01:54:15,400 --> 01:54:17,720
Speaker 1: The people on the right are able to make those

1868
01:54:17,800 --> 01:54:21,400
Speaker 1: kinds of statements and not be particularly taken seriously even

1869
01:54:21,400 --> 01:54:24,400
Speaker 1: when they should be. And people on the left are

1870
01:54:24,439 --> 01:54:29,360
Speaker 1: presumed to be you know, Antifa super soldiers. UM. So

1871
01:54:29,640 --> 01:54:34,640
Speaker 1: you know, I think the decision not to assert federal

1872
01:54:34,760 --> 01:54:40,440
Speaker 1: jurisdiction in the written House case is interesting. It is noteworthy,

1873
01:54:41,080 --> 01:54:44,320
Speaker 1: really curious about what was going on there, um and

1874
01:54:44,360 --> 01:54:50,720
Speaker 1: it has had a sort of cascade of effects, including UM.

1875
01:54:50,760 --> 01:54:55,200
Speaker 1: I doubt that the forensic digital investigation was as good

1876
01:54:55,240 --> 01:54:57,520
Speaker 1: as it would have been had it been federal Uh.

1877
01:54:57,560 --> 01:55:01,000
Speaker 1: And I doubt that the what I mean, he's facing

1878
01:55:01,040 --> 01:55:04,120
Speaker 1: multiple charges, but I don't think that he would have

1879
01:55:04,200 --> 01:55:06,920
Speaker 1: been as likely to go to trial had he been

1880
01:55:06,960 --> 01:55:11,320
Speaker 1: federally charged. UM. So again I don't you know, this

1881
01:55:11,400 --> 01:55:16,120
Speaker 1: is not an argument for more federal prosecution. But like,

1882
01:55:16,200 --> 01:55:19,960
Speaker 1: I think the breathless outrage that we're seeing in you know,

1883
01:55:20,040 --> 01:55:25,680
Speaker 1: these headlines, um, where people are correctly identifying the hypocrisy

1884
01:55:25,760 --> 01:55:29,080
Speaker 1: of the criminal legal system. UM. I think it's sort

1885
01:55:29,120 --> 01:55:35,360
Speaker 1: of an exercise in point missing. Um. You know, this prosecution, UM,

1886
01:55:35,400 --> 01:55:38,640
Speaker 1: like many of the prosecutions that we see, or the

1887
01:55:38,720 --> 01:55:43,240
Speaker 1: prosecutions that don't happen at all, UM, that involve members

1888
01:55:43,320 --> 01:55:49,080
Speaker 1: of the dominant class or people who uphold the values

1889
01:55:49,160 --> 01:55:53,560
Speaker 1: of the dominant classes. UM, is sort of proof of

1890
01:55:53,680 --> 01:55:58,040
Speaker 1: concept that it's possible to effectively allocate the burden of

1891
01:55:58,120 --> 01:56:02,680
Speaker 1: proof to the prosecution. It's possible not to go super

1892
01:56:02,760 --> 01:56:09,600
Speaker 1: hard on people and punish them for exercising their trial, right, UM. Right,

1893
01:56:09,760 --> 01:56:17,240
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's possible two treat all people accused

1894
01:56:17,280 --> 01:56:22,040
Speaker 1: of offenses in this way. UM. And I would much rather.

1895
01:56:22,360 --> 01:56:26,280
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, my ultimate goal is to uh dismantle

1896
01:56:26,320 --> 01:56:30,480
Speaker 1: the entire system, you know. But but in the meantime,

1897
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:34,200
Speaker 1: I don't think what we need is more vicious prosecution

1898
01:56:34,240 --> 01:56:37,840
Speaker 1: of the right. I think we need consistent and commensurate

1899
01:56:37,920 --> 01:56:45,160
Speaker 1: prosecution or lack of prosecution. We need to you know, Uh,

1900
01:56:45,240 --> 01:56:48,040
Speaker 1: I think that seeing the way that the right is

1901
01:56:48,080 --> 01:56:53,200
Speaker 1: treated should be evidence for an argument for the possibility

1902
01:56:53,480 --> 01:56:59,640
Speaker 1: of um treating all people with more leniency rather than

1903
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:03,560
Speaker 1: you know, intense the intense federal repression that we are

1904
01:57:04,120 --> 01:57:10,520
Speaker 1: facing and have been facing, you know since the Palmer rates. Um.

1905
01:57:10,560 --> 01:57:17,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, Um well, Moira, that uh is the

1906
01:57:17,440 --> 01:57:22,280
Speaker 1: stuff I wanted to ask about. Is there uh anything else? Um?

1907
01:57:23,320 --> 01:57:27,800
Speaker 1: I mean sure, I definitely go off on liberals Swart please,

1908
01:57:29,000 --> 01:57:33,440
Speaker 1: um please. I mean Garrison is a huge fan of liberals.

1909
01:57:33,480 --> 01:57:36,440
Speaker 1: He's got actually a full back tack two of Barack

1910
01:57:36,520 --> 01:57:40,560
Speaker 1: Obama and Bill Clinton, but they're they're in the volleyball

1911
01:57:40,600 --> 01:57:43,680
Speaker 1: scene from Top Gun. Um, it's an incredible tattoo. He

1912
01:57:43,720 --> 01:57:47,680
Speaker 1: did it all freehand on his own back. Amazing. Um,

1913
01:57:47,760 --> 01:57:49,839
Speaker 1: this is like the Garrison. I hope I don't receive

1914
01:57:49,880 --> 01:57:54,760
Speaker 1: any I hope I don't receive any awful fan right now? Someone,

1915
01:57:54,960 --> 01:57:58,200
Speaker 1: someone do it? Come on, come on, photoshop Garrison's head

1916
01:57:58,320 --> 01:58:02,720
Speaker 1: onto onto your stones back and the photoshop Nixon's head

1917
01:58:02,720 --> 01:58:05,160
Speaker 1: out and the volumeball scene from Top Gun with Bill

1918
01:58:05,160 --> 01:58:08,680
Speaker 1: Clinton and Barack Obama. Do it. Do it. Someone's gonna

1919
01:58:08,720 --> 01:58:12,440
Speaker 1: do it. Is definitely going to do it. This is

1920
01:58:12,480 --> 01:58:14,360
Speaker 1: you consume me for this, and you'd be right to

1921
01:58:14,400 --> 01:58:18,240
Speaker 1: do so. Um. But let's get back to and I

1922
01:58:18,320 --> 01:58:24,720
Speaker 1: might represent you the trial of the trial of the century. Yeah,

1923
01:58:24,800 --> 01:58:28,760
Speaker 1: that sounds great. I think this is a trend that

1924
01:58:29,000 --> 01:58:32,280
Speaker 1: we see with people who are not necessarily focused on

1925
01:58:33,840 --> 01:58:37,680
Speaker 1: looking at the ways that the law is always going

1926
01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:43,000
Speaker 1: to be used first and worst against the already most vulnerable. Right.

1927
01:58:43,040 --> 01:58:46,600
Speaker 1: So we've seen things like, UM, I think there's just

1928
01:58:46,640 --> 01:58:50,920
Speaker 1: this very well documented liberal impulse, and I think it's

1929
01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:55,280
Speaker 1: very well intentioned, but it's very dangerous UM to do

1930
01:58:55,440 --> 01:58:59,800
Speaker 1: things to assume that the system somehow works um or

1931
01:59:00,040 --> 01:59:02,200
Speaker 1: should work, and that it just needs to be like

1932
01:59:02,960 --> 01:59:06,840
Speaker 1: followed more closely, and that if we push for things

1933
01:59:07,120 --> 01:59:11,760
Speaker 1: like um, if we like use the law to constrain

1934
01:59:12,120 --> 01:59:16,200
Speaker 1: things that I would agree are the most harmful um,

1935
01:59:16,360 --> 01:59:21,520
Speaker 1: excesses of bigotry, right, UM, that the law would be

1936
01:59:22,160 --> 01:59:29,800
Speaker 1: a good tool for UM for addressing violence and bigotry.

1937
01:59:30,720 --> 01:59:33,560
Speaker 1: The law does not, But that is not what kind

1938
01:59:33,560 --> 01:59:37,240
Speaker 1: of tool the law is. UM. When we push for

1939
01:59:37,320 --> 01:59:41,760
Speaker 1: things like laws regulating political speech, including so called hate speech,

1940
01:59:42,240 --> 01:59:48,080
Speaker 1: laws regulating what are referred to as hate crimes laws, um,

1941
01:59:48,280 --> 01:59:51,680
Speaker 1: regulating who can carry a fighter arm and what they

1942
01:59:51,760 --> 01:59:56,680
Speaker 1: might look like. Um. You know, pushes for limiting the

1943
01:59:57,400 --> 02:00:01,160
Speaker 1: places or circumstances under which you could pro test UM

1944
02:00:01,480 --> 02:00:07,080
Speaker 1: or demonstrate, right, um, which you know, which was done. Um.

1945
02:00:07,520 --> 02:00:12,919
Speaker 1: There there was a real big um push to uh

1946
02:00:13,120 --> 02:00:19,880
Speaker 1: forbid uh anti choice activists from protesting outside of UM clinics, right,

1947
02:00:19,920 --> 02:00:23,200
Speaker 1: which I understand, right, But what actually is the upshot

1948
02:00:23,320 --> 02:00:26,120
Speaker 1: of doing that? When we see this kind of push

1949
02:00:26,240 --> 02:00:28,760
Speaker 1: to use the law as a tool to enforce a

1950
02:00:28,760 --> 02:00:34,040
Speaker 1: particular political agenda, it is not you know, it's it's

1951
02:00:34,080 --> 02:00:38,839
Speaker 1: just a very ill conceived way to approach this because

1952
02:00:38,840 --> 02:00:43,120
Speaker 1: the law is never going to protect the most vulnerable. Um. Well,

1953
02:00:43,240 --> 02:00:46,720
Speaker 1: these structures of power that up remain in place, and

1954
02:00:46,840 --> 02:00:49,800
Speaker 1: so you know, it's just always going to be leveraged

1955
02:00:49,840 --> 02:00:52,520
Speaker 1: against the people who have the least amount of power,

1956
02:00:52,840 --> 02:00:55,800
Speaker 1: and and so you know, this this sort of response

1957
02:00:55,840 --> 02:00:58,440
Speaker 1: to the written house stuff, to me is just essentially

1958
02:00:59,440 --> 02:01:03,360
Speaker 1: a recoup daration of that impulse. Yeah, I mean, it's

1959
02:01:03,400 --> 02:01:05,400
Speaker 1: it's a little like that old I think the joke

1960
02:01:05,480 --> 02:01:07,760
Speaker 1: has attributed to Gandhi. I don't know if Gandhi actually

1961
02:01:07,800 --> 02:01:09,480
Speaker 1: said it, but like he was asked what do you

1962
02:01:09,520 --> 02:01:11,560
Speaker 1: think of Christian civilization, and he said, I think it

1963
02:01:11,560 --> 02:01:13,560
Speaker 1: would be a wonderful idea. What do you think of

1964
02:01:13,600 --> 02:01:19,000
Speaker 1: the fair and equal rule of law? Sounds nice? Um,

1965
02:01:19,080 --> 02:01:24,840
Speaker 1: but yeah, one of the two. Um yeah, maybe both,

1966
02:01:24,960 --> 02:01:29,800
Speaker 1: maybe both. I don't know that we ever saw them together. Um, right,

1967
02:01:30,600 --> 02:01:35,200
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I I it's it's obviously it's

1968
02:01:35,240 --> 02:01:37,320
Speaker 1: too early to It's one of those things where all

1969
02:01:37,320 --> 02:01:39,280
Speaker 1: of the complaining about the unfairness of the trial of

1970
02:01:39,360 --> 02:01:45,320
Speaker 1: Written House winds up getting um rammed into a legal wall. Metaphorically,

1971
02:01:45,640 --> 02:01:49,640
Speaker 1: Uh may seem silly in content or in in retrospect,

1972
02:01:49,800 --> 02:01:53,280
Speaker 1: or he may this may be the thing that ignites

1973
02:01:53,320 --> 02:01:55,960
Speaker 1: a new wave of vigilante showing up at protests with guns,

1974
02:01:56,000 --> 02:01:59,160
Speaker 1: but it seems to be untouchable. Like really, the big

1975
02:01:59,200 --> 02:02:01,720
Speaker 1: fears that they don't know a president that will allow

1976
02:02:01,720 --> 02:02:04,800
Speaker 1: other people to use quote unquote self defense claims an

1977
02:02:04,840 --> 02:02:07,920
Speaker 1: effort just to kill black activists, to kill activists on

1978
02:02:07,960 --> 02:02:10,600
Speaker 1: the left, to kill people wearing you know, black hoodies

1979
02:02:10,600 --> 02:02:13,880
Speaker 1: and bandanas, because that's the that's the big fear out

1980
02:02:13,920 --> 02:02:17,280
Speaker 1: of this situation. Because my my expectation is that if

1981
02:02:17,280 --> 02:02:20,520
Speaker 1: Written House gets off or even just gets very minor,

1982
02:02:20,640 --> 02:02:23,680
Speaker 1: like if it's if he's if he's out of jail quickly,

1983
02:02:23,840 --> 02:02:27,720
Speaker 1: within about six months, he's going to be a millionaire. Um. Absolutely, Yeah,

1984
02:02:27,720 --> 02:02:30,000
Speaker 1: that's the way the right wing works. I would gently

1985
02:02:30,440 --> 02:02:32,960
Speaker 1: ask you to think about what happens if he doesn't,

1986
02:02:33,320 --> 02:02:38,440
Speaker 1: because if he's convicted, we are going to see a

1987
02:02:38,640 --> 02:02:43,200
Speaker 1: deepening of the repression that is faced by everyone on

1988
02:02:43,280 --> 02:02:49,000
Speaker 1: the left as well. We lose either way. Yeah, is

1989
02:02:49,040 --> 02:02:53,040
Speaker 1: on the table. There's no winning, I guess, I think,

1990
02:02:54,120 --> 02:02:56,040
Speaker 1: I mean part of it, I guess depends on what

1991
02:02:56,080 --> 02:03:01,520
Speaker 1: he's convicted for. Um, because some of the stuff has

1992
02:03:01,800 --> 02:03:04,160
Speaker 1: I would it seems to me, some of the things

1993
02:03:04,160 --> 02:03:08,000
Speaker 1: he's charged with, if convicted, there's more potential negative implications

1994
02:03:08,120 --> 02:03:12,680
Speaker 1: across the political aisle than than with others. Um Like

1995
02:03:12,800 --> 02:03:16,720
Speaker 1: if if it's ruled murder. I don't know, that feels

1996
02:03:16,760 --> 02:03:19,560
Speaker 1: less worries. I mean, I have some concerns about the

1997
02:03:19,600 --> 02:03:22,080
Speaker 1: crossing state line stuff. I don't know. I mean, none

1998
02:03:22,120 --> 02:03:24,800
Speaker 1: of it's none of it's good. I guess where I

1999
02:03:24,840 --> 02:03:30,840
Speaker 1: am is. I remember vividly how much the situation on

2000
02:03:30,880 --> 02:03:34,680
Speaker 1: the ground changed after Kenosha, just in in Portland, even

2001
02:03:34,720 --> 02:03:36,600
Speaker 1: I mean, Garrison can can back we up with it.

2002
02:03:36,680 --> 02:03:39,280
Speaker 1: They were there for that too, Like it was a

2003
02:03:39,520 --> 02:03:43,200
Speaker 1: It was a significant shift in the feeling of deadliness,

2004
02:03:43,360 --> 02:03:47,400
Speaker 1: you know, whenever there was a right wing left wing confrontation. Um,

2005
02:03:47,840 --> 02:03:50,400
Speaker 1: someone died a few days later, someone died a few

2006
02:03:50,440 --> 02:03:56,280
Speaker 1: days later and in a fucking gunfight. Um, And I

2007
02:03:56,280 --> 02:03:59,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know, Moira, Uh, I don't know.

2008
02:04:00,040 --> 02:04:03,040
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want Written House to get off

2009
02:04:03,080 --> 02:04:06,600
Speaker 1: scott free for shooting three people. You're absolutely right, there's

2010
02:04:06,640 --> 02:04:10,600
Speaker 1: no there's no winning with the legal system. The only

2011
02:04:10,600 --> 02:04:12,720
Speaker 1: way to win is not to play. The only way

2012
02:04:12,720 --> 02:04:15,720
Speaker 1: to win is not to play. So form your own

2013
02:04:15,840 --> 02:04:22,400
Speaker 1: breakaway civilization and as Gandhi and Gandhi yeah uh and

2014
02:04:22,760 --> 02:04:28,080
Speaker 1: n Hubbard take to the sea, yes, yeah, always Look.

2015
02:04:28,120 --> 02:04:32,040
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think. Um, I'm not looking for

2016
02:04:32,120 --> 02:04:35,920
Speaker 1: him to prevail on the self defense. Not like none

2017
02:04:35,920 --> 02:04:38,600
Speaker 1: of this is going to make me feel good. But

2018
02:04:38,680 --> 02:04:44,720
Speaker 1: I think that whether or not he is punished, whether

2019
02:04:44,880 --> 02:04:50,440
Speaker 1: or not he is convicted, there will be negative radio cussions,

2020
02:04:51,040 --> 02:04:54,640
Speaker 1: and all of those negative consequences will redound to the

2021
02:04:54,720 --> 02:04:58,920
Speaker 1: detriment of the people who are already facing the most

2022
02:04:58,960 --> 02:05:04,120
Speaker 1: intense federal oppression. Yeah, that is, I mean, and in fairness, like,

2023
02:05:04,360 --> 02:05:07,000
Speaker 1: this is the case of a child who killed two

2024
02:05:07,040 --> 02:05:10,360
Speaker 1: people and is now we are determining whether or not

2025
02:05:10,440 --> 02:05:12,880
Speaker 1: this child will spend the rest of their life in

2026
02:05:12,920 --> 02:05:16,680
Speaker 1: a cell. None of this should make anyone feel good,

2027
02:05:16,720 --> 02:05:22,440
Speaker 1: no matter what happens. It's a thoroughly bleak story. Yeah. Yeah,

2028
02:05:22,480 --> 02:05:25,440
Speaker 1: it's because this kid is never going to have a

2029
02:05:25,520 --> 02:05:27,720
Speaker 1: chance to grow up and be like, oh, I was

2030
02:05:27,960 --> 02:05:32,720
Speaker 1: being like a horrible No, they'll never be able to

2031
02:05:32,720 --> 02:05:36,080
Speaker 1: adjust to anything else rather than being this person that

2032
02:05:36,560 --> 02:05:39,440
Speaker 1: like culturally has been created right there. They are like

2033
02:05:39,480 --> 02:05:43,040
Speaker 1: a cultural thing. They're an item. They're not a person anymore,

2034
02:05:43,360 --> 02:05:45,400
Speaker 1: and they'll never be able to escape that. Yeah. I

2035
02:05:45,480 --> 02:05:48,280
Speaker 1: was a piece of ship when I was seventeen, and

2036
02:05:48,360 --> 02:05:50,760
Speaker 1: if I had had access to an a R fifteen

2037
02:05:51,200 --> 02:05:53,320
Speaker 1: and a chance to feel like a hero, I might

2038
02:05:53,360 --> 02:05:55,960
Speaker 1: have done something horrific too, And instead you were just

2039
02:05:56,000 --> 02:06:02,120
Speaker 1: doing sloppy steaks And it's fine and now it's fine. Um,

2040
02:06:02,160 --> 02:06:05,160
Speaker 1: have you watched I think you should leave Moira? I'm sorry,

2041
02:06:05,480 --> 02:06:09,160
Speaker 1: have you watched I think you should leave Moira? No? Oh,

2042
02:06:09,160 --> 02:06:14,720
Speaker 1: it's good, it's good, Okay, all right, I'll check it out. Um, um,

2043
02:06:15,080 --> 02:06:18,680
Speaker 1: I'll take a look. Yeah, I don't know. Um, well,

2044
02:06:19,560 --> 02:06:25,120
Speaker 1: thank you, Moira. Uh, this is always appreciated. Um, it's good.

2045
02:06:26,480 --> 02:06:30,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, like, were you we've talked a bit

2046
02:06:30,120 --> 02:06:33,080
Speaker 1: about anarchism. How many of how much? How much of

2047
02:06:33,160 --> 02:06:36,960
Speaker 1: like your belief about the way the world ought to

2048
02:06:37,000 --> 02:06:41,080
Speaker 1: be and is, came as a result of getting into

2049
02:06:41,080 --> 02:06:45,680
Speaker 1: the guts of the legal system. Do you mean did

2050
02:06:45,720 --> 02:06:49,160
Speaker 1: I become more devoted to anarchy and I went to

2051
02:06:49,200 --> 02:06:55,360
Speaker 1: law school. Yeah? Um, I didn't become less devoted to it.

2052
02:06:56,560 --> 02:06:58,880
Speaker 1: I remember when I was going to law school, people

2053
02:06:58,920 --> 02:07:01,240
Speaker 1: kept saying, Oh, You're going to become really conservative, and

2054
02:07:01,280 --> 02:07:04,800
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't think that's true. That seems

2055
02:07:05,840 --> 02:07:11,160
Speaker 1: seems fake. Uh. And in fact, I remember being in

2056
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:14,320
Speaker 1: my criminal procedure class and just thinking, how in the

2057
02:07:14,360 --> 02:07:21,360
Speaker 1: world can anyone at any law school read Miranda, which

2058
02:07:21,400 --> 02:07:27,320
Speaker 1: is a case where someone is, you know, just horrifically

2059
02:07:27,360 --> 02:07:33,600
Speaker 1: abused by police in order to extract a statement. How

2060
02:07:33,640 --> 02:07:37,320
Speaker 1: could anybody read this case and not come out of

2061
02:07:37,400 --> 02:07:42,880
Speaker 1: law school with a deep contempt for law enforcement. You know,

2062
02:07:42,960 --> 02:07:47,680
Speaker 1: I know that it happens. I don't know how always

2063
02:07:47,760 --> 02:07:52,120
Speaker 1: uplifting I mean it, it is it's important to know,

2064
02:07:52,920 --> 02:07:55,680
Speaker 1: you know. I when I was when I was younger

2065
02:07:55,920 --> 02:07:59,360
Speaker 1: and poor, uh and dealing with things like taxes, I

2066
02:07:59,360 --> 02:08:01,800
Speaker 1: would often go like years without paying them, and I

2067
02:08:01,800 --> 02:08:05,240
Speaker 1: would like ignore debts and bills until like like my

2068
02:08:05,280 --> 02:08:08,000
Speaker 1: student loans, until it became like a serious problem because

2069
02:08:08,000 --> 02:08:09,440
Speaker 1: I didn't want to look at it. I didn't even

2070
02:08:09,520 --> 02:08:12,280
Speaker 1: want to like look at the scale of the issue

2071
02:08:12,360 --> 02:08:14,080
Speaker 1: and grapple with it. I just wanted to run away

2072
02:08:14,080 --> 02:08:17,000
Speaker 1: from it. And when I actually like sat down and

2073
02:08:18,160 --> 02:08:22,880
Speaker 1: figured out my situation and like really came to understand

2074
02:08:22,920 --> 02:08:24,880
Speaker 1: like what what I needed to do in order to

2075
02:08:24,880 --> 02:08:27,800
Speaker 1: deal with those problems, Like, it was stressful and it sucked,

2076
02:08:27,800 --> 02:08:32,040
Speaker 1: and it was fucking days of work, but getting understanding

2077
02:08:32,040 --> 02:08:34,720
Speaker 1: the scope of the problem I'd gotten myself into was

2078
02:08:34,760 --> 02:08:38,880
Speaker 1: a necessary step to like fixing the situation. And I

2079
02:08:38,960 --> 02:08:42,120
Speaker 1: think the same is true with like this kind of ship.

2080
02:08:42,200 --> 02:08:45,040
Speaker 1: It's not fun. Nobody who is. I think a reasonable

2081
02:08:45,120 --> 02:08:49,680
Speaker 1: person like wants to dig into the US justice system

2082
02:08:49,800 --> 02:08:52,200
Speaker 1: and get into the guts of it because it's bleak

2083
02:08:52,240 --> 02:08:55,520
Speaker 1: as hell. But you need to because it's it's you

2084
02:08:55,560 --> 02:08:59,000
Speaker 1: can't escape it unless you flee the country. And live

2085
02:08:59,120 --> 02:09:03,800
Speaker 1: in a place with no extradition treaties UM or international waters.

2086
02:09:06,520 --> 02:09:08,360
Speaker 1: I feel like you're talking about a lot of the

2087
02:09:08,400 --> 02:09:14,120
Speaker 1: people you've profiled past. I mean, Ecuador does sound nice.

2088
02:09:17,680 --> 02:09:22,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's loveliest time of here. Um. Yeah, I

2089
02:09:22,840 --> 02:09:25,120
Speaker 1: think you're right. You need to be able to have

2090
02:09:25,560 --> 02:09:28,400
Speaker 1: a sort of clear eyed assessment so that we can

2091
02:09:28,480 --> 02:09:34,440
Speaker 1: accurately identify and effectively address the problems. Unfortunately, I think

2092
02:09:34,440 --> 02:09:41,080
Speaker 1: the problems are so um all encompassing that I don't

2093
02:09:41,120 --> 02:09:45,960
Speaker 1: know that there's I would venture to say that there

2094
02:09:46,080 --> 02:09:53,440
Speaker 1: is not a real totalizing solution that doesn't involve total abolition. Yeah,

2095
02:09:53,520 --> 02:09:56,400
Speaker 1: I I agree with you. But in the meantime, I

2096
02:09:56,440 --> 02:09:59,440
Speaker 1: mean I think there are there are things that we

2097
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:04,040
Speaker 1: can do too, Yeah, to advocate for our clients, or

2098
02:10:06,920 --> 02:10:09,560
Speaker 1: as an individual, you can do to protect yourself. And

2099
02:10:09,560 --> 02:10:11,200
Speaker 1: that's why it is important to have some sort of

2100
02:10:11,240 --> 02:10:15,920
Speaker 1: working understanding UM, because you can keep yourself and the

2101
02:10:15,920 --> 02:10:18,480
Speaker 1: people around you at least somewhat safer if you do

2102
02:10:18,680 --> 02:10:21,880
Speaker 1: understand the beast um. Even though your goal is to

2103
02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:25,640
Speaker 1: is to destroy it. Uh. And that's I think the

2104
02:10:25,640 --> 02:10:28,640
Speaker 1: only reasonable goal when you really understand it, it's still

2105
02:10:28,840 --> 02:10:31,280
Speaker 1: behooves you to to understand it. I mean, it's the

2106
02:10:31,280 --> 02:10:33,680
Speaker 1: same with like it the same with what what Garrison

2107
02:10:33,720 --> 02:10:35,440
Speaker 1: and I do with the fucking Nazi spending all this

2108
02:10:35,560 --> 02:10:38,160
Speaker 1: time in weird telegram channels, like reading what they're trying

2109
02:10:38,200 --> 02:10:41,320
Speaker 1: to understand them, because you do need to understand them

2110
02:10:41,320 --> 02:10:45,560
Speaker 1: to effectively combat them. Well, it's not for the faint

2111
02:10:45,560 --> 02:10:51,520
Speaker 1: of heart. No, no, yeah, neither is what you do. Um.

2112
02:10:51,560 --> 02:10:53,760
Speaker 1: The messages is that we're all well adjusted and we're

2113
02:10:53,800 --> 02:11:00,400
Speaker 1: all we're all great. That boat that's the secondary trauma. No,

2114
02:11:01,480 --> 02:11:04,480
Speaker 1: there's no secondary trauma in international waters Moire. I have

2115
02:11:04,560 --> 02:11:07,360
Speaker 1: that that that my my old friend l R. H

2116
02:11:07,720 --> 02:11:10,920
Speaker 1: told me that just you and the open sea and

2117
02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:13,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of twenty year old searching for gold that

2118
02:11:13,760 --> 02:11:19,800
Speaker 1: I buried in a past life, live in the dream. Yeah,

2119
02:11:20,320 --> 02:11:26,200
Speaker 1: he is both fascinating and terrifying. Yeah. Um, just just

2120
02:11:26,280 --> 02:11:29,680
Speaker 1: like just like our legal system and system, and that

2121
02:11:29,720 --> 02:11:35,480
Speaker 1: wraps up this episode that brings us around. Um, anything

2122
02:11:35,480 --> 02:11:38,120
Speaker 1: you want to plug any any place, maybe our listeners

2123
02:11:38,120 --> 02:11:43,200
Speaker 1: could could send donations that would help somebody who's themselves

2124
02:11:43,240 --> 02:11:46,360
Speaker 1: against a wall at the moment. Would certainly suggest that

2125
02:11:46,480 --> 02:11:50,440
Speaker 1: people look into whatever bail funds are local to them.

2126
02:11:50,520 --> 02:11:53,280
Speaker 1: There's one I know in New York called COVID Bailout NYC.

2127
02:11:54,120 --> 02:11:58,160
Speaker 1: That's UM doing incredible work right now to get people

2128
02:11:58,160 --> 02:12:03,320
Speaker 1: off Riker's Island, which is having a humanitarian crisis of

2129
02:12:04,040 --> 02:12:08,920
Speaker 1: just unbelievable scope. UM. It sounds to me like the

2130
02:12:08,920 --> 02:12:11,840
Speaker 1: conditions on Rikers right now are at least as bad

2131
02:12:11,840 --> 02:12:17,560
Speaker 1: as the conditions that led to the Attica uprising. UM.

2132
02:12:17,600 --> 02:12:21,600
Speaker 1: So I would always, always, UM direct people to give

2133
02:12:21,640 --> 02:12:24,800
Speaker 1: money to local bail funds. I also want to plug

2134
02:12:25,080 --> 02:12:31,000
Speaker 1: the National Lawyers Guild Anti Federal Repression or Federal Defense hotline,

2135
02:12:31,040 --> 02:12:35,440
Speaker 1: which is to one two six seven nine to eight

2136
02:12:35,440 --> 02:12:38,920
Speaker 1: one one two one to six seven, nine to eight

2137
02:12:38,960 --> 02:12:41,960
Speaker 1: one one if you call that number, or you can

2138
02:12:42,000 --> 02:12:45,240
Speaker 1: call that number if you are having unwanted contact with

2139
02:12:45,280 --> 02:12:49,360
Speaker 1: federal agents, and you can be advised by an attorney

2140
02:12:49,840 --> 02:12:54,040
Speaker 1: who is ME about your rights and responsibilities with respect

2141
02:12:54,080 --> 02:12:57,400
Speaker 1: to federal agents, and I will try to connect you

2142
02:12:57,440 --> 02:13:00,840
Speaker 1: with appropriate resources in your area. This is not the

2143
02:13:00,880 --> 02:13:04,120
Speaker 1: hotline to call if you've been injured by a police officer. UM.

2144
02:13:04,160 --> 02:13:06,520
Speaker 1: This is the hotline to call if you have been

2145
02:13:06,640 --> 02:13:12,680
Speaker 1: visited by the FBI. UM, don't talk to cops. If

2146
02:13:12,840 --> 02:13:15,959
Speaker 1: you are contacted by law enforcement, say I am represented

2147
02:13:16,000 --> 02:13:17,880
Speaker 1: by counsel. Please leave your name and number, and my

2148
02:13:17,960 --> 02:13:21,680
Speaker 1: lawyer will call you. Uh. And remember that you cannot

2149
02:13:21,680 --> 02:13:23,720
Speaker 1: talk your way out of an arrest, but you can

2150
02:13:23,840 --> 02:13:28,640
Speaker 1: talk your way into a conviction. All great points, all

2151
02:13:28,680 --> 02:13:31,840
Speaker 1: great things to be aware of. Um, speaking of great

2152
02:13:31,880 --> 02:13:34,200
Speaker 1: things to be aware of. Be aware that we'll be

2153
02:13:34,240 --> 02:13:37,080
Speaker 1: back tomorrow, unless this is a Friday, in which case

2154
02:13:37,120 --> 02:13:39,400
Speaker 1: we'll be back next week. From now until the heat

2155
02:13:39,440 --> 02:13:42,600
Speaker 1: death of the universe. Thank you so much, Maura. You're

2156
02:13:42,640 --> 02:13:56,400
Speaker 1: so welcome blow and welcome to it could happen here

2157
02:13:56,440 --> 02:14:01,040
Speaker 1: a podcast about the continual state of bad things happening

2158
02:14:01,080 --> 02:14:03,960
Speaker 1: and how sometimes you can make them less bad or

2159
02:14:04,000 --> 02:14:08,160
Speaker 1: not happen. And today we're gonna I'm Christopher Wong, by

2160
02:14:08,200 --> 02:14:11,760
Speaker 1: the way, and today we're gonna be talking about Bosnia,

2161
02:14:11,880 --> 02:14:15,760
Speaker 1: a place where things went about as bad as they

2162
02:14:15,760 --> 02:14:22,000
Speaker 1: possibly can, and about how they're heading in very scary

2163
02:14:22,040 --> 02:14:27,040
Speaker 1: directions now. And with us to talk about this is Arnessa.

2164
02:14:27,160 --> 02:14:31,839
Speaker 1: Kristrad Arnessa is a genocide survivor and a academic expert

2165
02:14:31,920 --> 02:14:35,920
Speaker 1: on genocides in general. Arnessa, how how are you doing

2166
02:14:37,240 --> 02:14:41,360
Speaker 1: you know, I'm doing okay. I think all thanks considered,

2167
02:14:42,920 --> 02:14:47,320
Speaker 1: you know, being sort of bombarded on a daily basis

2168
02:14:47,480 --> 02:14:52,720
Speaker 1: with you know, possible threats, um and talks about you know,

2169
02:14:52,760 --> 02:14:56,160
Speaker 1: a new conflict war brewing and the Balkans is the

2170
02:14:56,600 --> 02:15:02,120
Speaker 1: thing not an easy thing to content define, you're not. Yeah,

2171
02:15:02,240 --> 02:15:06,360
Speaker 1: But other than that, I'm doing great. Thanks for asking.

2172
02:15:07,720 --> 02:15:09,360
Speaker 1: I'm glad. I'm glad. I'm glad you could be here

2173
02:15:09,800 --> 02:15:14,360
Speaker 1: with me today. Because the Balkans extremely complicated place, which

2174
02:15:14,360 --> 02:15:16,880
Speaker 1: I guess the story of both places. But yeah, and

2175
02:15:16,880 --> 02:15:18,440
Speaker 1: so I guess that that's that's where I wanted to

2176
02:15:18,440 --> 02:15:25,400
Speaker 1: go with my first question, because reading about what's happening now,

2177
02:15:25,440 --> 02:15:28,800
Speaker 1: my first instinct was go back to the date and accords.

2178
02:15:28,840 --> 02:15:31,800
Speaker 1: But I'm actually not sure that that's that that's that's

2179
02:15:31,880 --> 02:15:33,800
Speaker 1: that's even the best place to start. And so I

2180
02:15:33,840 --> 02:15:38,040
Speaker 1: wanted I wanted to, I guess ask you if so, okay,

2181
02:15:38,040 --> 02:15:40,480
Speaker 1: so if if, if you're coming into looking at the

2182
02:15:40,520 --> 02:15:43,400
Speaker 1: Balkans for the first time and you're trying to understand

2183
02:15:43,400 --> 02:15:46,120
Speaker 1: what's going on now, where do you think is the

2184
02:15:46,120 --> 02:15:49,800
Speaker 1: best place to start on it? Because I think you

2185
02:15:49,880 --> 02:15:57,560
Speaker 1: know the best. Yeah, we're talking about so much history, honestly.

2186
02:15:57,960 --> 02:16:01,160
Speaker 1: But the thing is, let's you know, let's start with

2187
02:16:01,320 --> 02:16:05,600
Speaker 1: the death of Tito. That's always a good place, I think,

2188
02:16:06,240 --> 02:16:09,920
Speaker 1: because that's really when things started to kind of shift

2189
02:16:10,480 --> 02:16:13,920
Speaker 1: in the Balkans and the former you know, socialist Upo

2190
02:16:14,000 --> 02:16:20,600
Speaker 1: Slavia was really once Tito died and his place became,

2191
02:16:21,680 --> 02:16:26,240
Speaker 1: you know empty as this sort of unifying factor of

2192
02:16:26,280 --> 02:16:30,720
Speaker 1: all the various ethnicities and nationalities within Yugoslavia. You know,

2193
02:16:30,800 --> 02:16:34,480
Speaker 1: once he was gone, that sort of left this vacuum

2194
02:16:34,520 --> 02:16:37,320
Speaker 1: that needed to be filled, and unfortunately, instead of being

2195
02:16:37,800 --> 02:16:43,560
Speaker 1: filled by another socialist, you know, pro equality, pro unity leader,

2196
02:16:44,280 --> 02:16:50,120
Speaker 1: it was filled with a nationalist um, which is kind

2197
02:16:50,160 --> 02:16:54,640
Speaker 1: of where we still are. Unfortunately. Um, you know, it

2198
02:16:54,760 --> 02:16:59,240
Speaker 1: started obviously with with little things, I think, with little

2199
02:16:59,320 --> 02:17:05,960
Speaker 1: sort of conversations and and little subtle I guess, you know,

2200
02:17:06,400 --> 02:17:10,600
Speaker 1: Ethno nationalist rhetorics, and it just kind of like grew

2201
02:17:11,040 --> 02:17:14,959
Speaker 1: and spiraled from there, and obviously, you know, that sort

2202
02:17:15,000 --> 02:17:20,760
Speaker 1: of thing led to Miloshevich and Kosovo giving his infamous speech,

2203
02:17:22,280 --> 02:17:28,120
Speaker 1: which kind of really gave that full fledged stamp on. Okay, yes,

2204
02:17:28,240 --> 02:17:33,600
Speaker 1: this is a ultra nationalists, you know, Ethno nationalist president

2205
02:17:33,680 --> 02:17:38,360
Speaker 1: that we now have, um, who's threatening war across the

2206
02:17:38,400 --> 02:17:43,280
Speaker 1: other ethnicities. What do we do next? Um? And at

2207
02:17:43,320 --> 02:17:45,800
Speaker 1: that point, you know, that's when you sort of see

2208
02:17:46,240 --> 02:17:49,440
Speaker 1: the other countries start to secede, you know, Slovenia and

2209
02:17:49,520 --> 02:17:54,080
Speaker 1: Croatia they're attacked by Serbia and then obviously eventually it

2210
02:17:54,160 --> 02:17:58,920
Speaker 1: goes down to Bosnia. UM. And yeah, I mean it

2211
02:17:58,959 --> 02:18:05,199
Speaker 1: starts with the ethno nationalism, as it always does. I think, Um,

2212
02:18:05,480 --> 02:18:09,119
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think we're anything special in terms

2213
02:18:09,200 --> 02:18:13,240
Speaker 1: of having conflict with our neighbors. Look at France and

2214
02:18:13,320 --> 02:18:18,280
Speaker 1: England or in our or America and Mexico or anyone.

2215
02:18:18,440 --> 02:18:21,280
Speaker 1: Really it's just you know, I think people make it

2216
02:18:21,400 --> 02:18:24,720
Speaker 1: sound as if we're special or we have these ancient hatreds,

2217
02:18:24,800 --> 02:18:27,440
Speaker 1: but you know that's not really true. It all comes

2218
02:18:27,480 --> 02:18:31,880
Speaker 1: down to the freaking politics and the leaders. And unfortunately,

2219
02:18:32,400 --> 02:18:40,560
Speaker 1: you know, Miloshevich was removed, but is policy is um

2220
02:18:40,879 --> 02:18:47,240
Speaker 1: beliefs continue to kind of stick around, you know, I think, uh,

2221
02:18:47,320 --> 02:18:52,240
Speaker 1: you know, people think of people like Miloshevich and odavankata Ji,

2222
02:18:52,400 --> 02:18:56,840
Speaker 1: who were you know, genocidal war criminals, as a thing

2223
02:18:56,879 --> 02:18:59,280
Speaker 1: of the past. But really you look at you know,

2224
02:18:59,400 --> 02:19:06,039
Speaker 1: the Serbian and president um or the SKA president middle

2225
02:19:07,000 --> 02:19:13,320
Speaker 1: and they are really just the continuation of Katach and relationshim.

2226
02:19:13,440 --> 02:19:18,920
Speaker 1: So nothing you know, has fundamentally changed since Tito died,

2227
02:19:19,000 --> 02:19:22,800
Speaker 1: except you know, we got some new agreements, We've got

2228
02:19:22,840 --> 02:19:26,920
Speaker 1: some new territories, some new ethnic lients drawn up, and

2229
02:19:27,360 --> 02:19:30,520
Speaker 1: not a new pretty buildings too. We have those as well,

2230
02:19:30,680 --> 02:19:36,920
Speaker 1: but we don't really have that coexistence um at least

2231
02:19:36,920 --> 02:19:41,360
Speaker 1: that on paper, not in politics. Certainly. I want go

2232
02:19:41,640 --> 02:19:46,640
Speaker 1: back for a second too, I guess the moment of

2233
02:19:46,720 --> 02:19:48,959
Speaker 1: Chito dying because it's always been a sort of interesting

2234
02:19:51,040 --> 02:19:52,840
Speaker 1: thing looking at it for me because I remember, I mean,

2235
02:19:53,000 --> 02:19:55,360
Speaker 1: you know, so from from stutting Chinese history right there,

2236
02:19:55,360 --> 02:19:58,640
Speaker 1: there's a period where in the seventies were okay, like

2237
02:19:58,640 --> 02:20:01,720
Speaker 1: everyone's looking for reform and China and you know what

2238
02:20:01,720 --> 02:20:04,240
Speaker 1: what you would consider like the sort of the I

2239
02:20:04,280 --> 02:20:07,400
Speaker 1: guess you could call them the I don't know, left

2240
02:20:07,400 --> 02:20:10,480
Speaker 1: and right is complicated in China, but you know, like

2241
02:20:10,480 --> 02:20:11,880
Speaker 1: there there are a lot of sort of what you

2242
02:20:11,920 --> 02:20:15,879
Speaker 1: would call like the sort of left socialists, like democratic

2243
02:20:15,920 --> 02:20:17,760
Speaker 1: reformers who are who you know, I mean people people

2244
02:20:17,760 --> 02:20:19,760
Speaker 1: like they're looking at Yugoslavia as a model and they're going, oh,

2245
02:20:19,800 --> 02:20:22,840
Speaker 1: we can have like workers participation, and we can have

2246
02:20:23,120 --> 02:20:29,400
Speaker 1: we can have these democratic enterprises, and then that just implodes.

2247
02:20:29,520 --> 02:20:31,280
Speaker 1: And and yeah, I wonder if we could talk a

2248
02:20:31,320 --> 02:20:34,840
Speaker 1: little bit about more about that, because my my very

2249
02:20:34,840 --> 02:20:37,840
Speaker 1: limited understanding of it was like there's an economic crisis

2250
02:20:38,240 --> 02:20:44,240
Speaker 1: from the oil shocks, and then once Tito dies, it's

2251
02:20:44,280 --> 02:20:48,039
Speaker 1: just like the wheels come off the whole system. I mean,

2252
02:20:48,040 --> 02:20:50,520
Speaker 1: that's a really good way of like putting it. Um,

2253
02:20:50,560 --> 02:20:53,480
Speaker 1: you know, like life in Yugoslavia, I don't think it

2254
02:20:53,520 --> 02:20:56,400
Speaker 1: was like ever perfect, and I definitely don't think it

2255
02:20:56,480 --> 02:20:59,600
Speaker 1: was a perfect system. I think, you know, me being

2256
02:20:59,640 --> 02:21:02,320
Speaker 1: a ball me and he was born to Vary, I

2257
02:21:02,320 --> 02:21:07,520
Speaker 1: think pro Yugoslav parents. Um. I just like many of

2258
02:21:07,760 --> 02:21:12,640
Speaker 1: my you know, fellow Yugoslavs or x Yugoslavs habitant seemed

2259
02:21:12,680 --> 02:21:16,560
Speaker 1: to look at Yugoslavia with like rose colored lenses. You know.

2260
02:21:17,360 --> 02:21:22,760
Speaker 1: We think about the coexistence, the unity, the multi ethnic part,

2261
02:21:22,920 --> 02:21:27,240
Speaker 1: the worker owned you know, socialist models, the fact that

2262
02:21:27,560 --> 02:21:30,800
Speaker 1: our parents, um, you know, we're able to provide for

2263
02:21:30,879 --> 02:21:35,960
Speaker 1: their families and take vacations and travel and um, you know,

2264
02:21:36,080 --> 02:21:38,680
Speaker 1: get together and all these sort of wonderful things. But

2265
02:21:38,760 --> 02:21:41,800
Speaker 1: in the background really in the sort of depths of

2266
02:21:41,879 --> 02:21:47,440
Speaker 1: the you know, politics and the economic issues were kind

2267
02:21:47,480 --> 02:21:52,080
Speaker 1: of always there. Um. You know. The one thing that

2268
02:21:52,080 --> 02:21:57,240
Speaker 1: Tito did was obviously he relied unlike I think other

2269
02:21:57,400 --> 02:22:01,760
Speaker 1: socialist leaders of his time is you know, he basically

2270
02:22:01,800 --> 02:22:05,680
Speaker 1: worked with anyone, you know, the non aligned movement, but

2271
02:22:05,800 --> 02:22:10,520
Speaker 1: also with the West, with Europe, you know. So uh,

2272
02:22:10,720 --> 02:22:15,080
Speaker 1: he was a very picky choosy I think was you know,

2273
02:22:15,160 --> 02:22:19,840
Speaker 1: the betterment of the country by kind of any means necessary. Um.

2274
02:22:21,560 --> 02:22:26,680
Speaker 1: But I think, you know, he made mistakes, just like

2275
02:22:26,920 --> 02:22:32,400
Speaker 1: um other leaders do. And I think obviously we had

2276
02:22:32,600 --> 02:22:36,280
Speaker 1: you know, two issues. One he was sick, he was dying, um.

2277
02:22:36,959 --> 02:22:40,800
Speaker 1: And and too there was an economic crisis happening. Um.

2278
02:22:41,040 --> 02:22:45,240
Speaker 1: And three then we had like the economic reforms, which

2279
02:22:46,320 --> 02:22:50,520
Speaker 1: really shifted the entire I mean they just they very

2280
02:22:50,600 --> 02:22:55,520
Speaker 1: much shifted the the system that the Yugoslav people were

2281
02:22:55,640 --> 02:22:58,520
Speaker 1: very much used to. Um. It became more and more

2282
02:22:58,600 --> 02:23:02,840
Speaker 1: prior you know, private eyes after his death. UM. And

2283
02:23:02,840 --> 02:23:06,920
Speaker 1: and you know, Miloshevic he was he was a banker,

2284
02:23:07,080 --> 02:23:13,000
Speaker 1: he was a businessman. He was he was who he was. UM.

2285
02:23:13,040 --> 02:23:15,720
Speaker 1: And I don't think that he ever really pretended to

2286
02:23:15,760 --> 02:23:19,240
Speaker 1: be a socialist, which is why I get so upset

2287
02:23:19,320 --> 02:23:23,920
Speaker 1: when the American leftists call him a socialist or call

2288
02:23:24,000 --> 02:23:27,760
Speaker 1: him an anti imperialist, because those aren't even words that

2289
02:23:27,879 --> 02:23:32,119
Speaker 1: you know, he himself would have really used to describe himself.

2290
02:23:32,160 --> 02:23:36,560
Speaker 1: I think, but but I think, you know, there was

2291
02:23:36,680 --> 02:23:41,920
Speaker 1: just it was that sort of thing where there's an

2292
02:23:41,959 --> 02:23:46,840
Speaker 1: economic crisis brewing, they have no ways to really fix it.

2293
02:23:47,400 --> 02:23:52,160
Speaker 1: People are broke, people are starving. Suddenly the ownership, the

2294
02:23:52,200 --> 02:23:55,640
Speaker 1: worker you know owned sort of model is being shifted

2295
02:23:55,680 --> 02:23:59,840
Speaker 1: to a more privatized model, and people are just not happy.

2296
02:24:00,560 --> 02:24:06,400
Speaker 1: What's a good way to distract from that? You know,

2297
02:24:06,560 --> 02:24:09,560
Speaker 1: It's just we see it happen everywhere. It's not a

2298
02:24:09,640 --> 02:24:13,959
Speaker 1: new it's not like a new, you know tactic. It's

2299
02:24:13,959 --> 02:24:20,040
Speaker 1: a tactic that everyone has utilized. Blame it on the other. Um. So,

2300
02:24:20,120 --> 02:24:23,120
Speaker 1: Yugoslavia didn't really have you know, immigrants that they could

2301
02:24:23,160 --> 02:24:27,400
Speaker 1: blame it on, but they had Muslims. So and they

2302
02:24:27,440 --> 02:24:30,800
Speaker 1: had the Kasabo you know, Albanians and the Bossians and

2303
02:24:31,720 --> 02:24:38,200
Speaker 1: that was, you know enough, and suddenly the conversation really shifted.

2304
02:24:38,879 --> 02:24:43,000
Speaker 1: And obviously I'm simplifying all of this a lot, so

2305
02:24:43,080 --> 02:24:47,039
Speaker 1: much more complicated. Um but you know, there there are

2306
02:24:47,080 --> 02:24:51,160
Speaker 1: books out there, and and that obviously go into a

2307
02:24:51,280 --> 02:24:55,560
Speaker 1: great you know, level of detail, um, into the actual

2308
02:24:55,640 --> 02:25:01,880
Speaker 1: sort of breakup, so I can give some recommendations later. Um. Yeah.

2309
02:25:01,959 --> 02:25:04,879
Speaker 1: But I think in in that sort of very simplistic

2310
02:25:05,120 --> 02:25:08,320
Speaker 1: kind of sense is there was an economic crisis happening.

2311
02:25:08,520 --> 02:25:10,440
Speaker 1: A good way to sort of distract that was the

2312
02:25:10,600 --> 02:25:14,680
Speaker 1: use of ethno nationalism, and it just kind of spiraled

2313
02:25:14,840 --> 02:25:18,320
Speaker 1: from there. I think, you know what Miloshevich and what

2314
02:25:18,400 --> 02:25:22,959
Speaker 1: people like Miloshevitch always want, it's more power for themselves.

2315
02:25:23,200 --> 02:25:27,320
Speaker 1: And so his whole thing wasn't really ever about keeping

2316
02:25:27,400 --> 02:25:32,959
Speaker 1: Yugoslavia intact as Yugoslavia. It was keeping this vision of

2317
02:25:33,000 --> 02:25:36,959
Speaker 1: a greater Serbia alive. Because the thing is, you know,

2318
02:25:37,200 --> 02:25:42,280
Speaker 1: if we had not had a person like Miloshevitch, if

2319
02:25:42,360 --> 02:25:44,800
Speaker 1: we just had somebody who was you know, the second,

2320
02:25:44,959 --> 02:25:49,640
Speaker 1: you know, maybe more or less worse or better, who cares,

2321
02:25:50,120 --> 02:25:52,200
Speaker 1: I think people would have been fine. I think, you know,

2322
02:25:52,840 --> 02:25:55,560
Speaker 1: I don't see this like war breaking now. But instead

2323
02:25:55,600 --> 02:25:58,360
Speaker 1: we had Miloshevitch, who was like way more concerned about

2324
02:25:58,400 --> 02:26:02,800
Speaker 1: consolidating power, exerting that control. And when he realized that

2325
02:26:02,840 --> 02:26:06,160
Speaker 1: he could use ethno nationalism to get to his goals.

2326
02:26:07,200 --> 02:26:09,200
Speaker 1: Of course he was going to use that. Of course,

2327
02:26:09,320 --> 02:26:11,720
Speaker 1: like who wouldn't you know, we see it today with

2328
02:26:11,879 --> 02:26:15,640
Speaker 1: like what Trump did. He utilized you know, Muslims and

2329
02:26:15,680 --> 02:26:18,840
Speaker 1: immigrants and refugees and black people, all his scapeboats to

2330
02:26:18,920 --> 02:26:22,440
Speaker 1: distract from all the other things that are wrong with him,

2331
02:26:22,640 --> 02:26:26,600
Speaker 1: his leadership and the overall country. And him did the same.

2332
02:26:26,680 --> 02:26:30,840
Speaker 1: He just did what any other politician did. And you

2333
02:26:30,879 --> 02:26:33,879
Speaker 1: know that's the thing I think, you know, in thinking

2334
02:26:33,920 --> 02:26:36,960
Speaker 1: about Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia and all these countries that started

2335
02:26:37,000 --> 02:26:43,560
Speaker 1: to succeed, I think if they had felt comfortable with,

2336
02:26:44,280 --> 02:26:47,360
Speaker 1: you know, staying in a country that is multi ethnic,

2337
02:26:47,440 --> 02:26:49,280
Speaker 1: at least in the case of Bosnians. I'm not going

2338
02:26:49,320 --> 02:26:51,400
Speaker 1: to speak for the Slovanian's or Croatians because they have

2339
02:26:51,440 --> 02:26:56,080
Speaker 1: their own, i think complicated identity. But with Bosnians, are

2340
02:26:57,640 --> 02:27:01,760
Speaker 1: are saying collectively, I think while we're not a monolith,

2341
02:27:02,160 --> 02:27:07,680
Speaker 1: not monolith, but collectively was always where are united? We

2342
02:27:07,840 --> 02:27:12,680
Speaker 1: are multi ethnic, multi religious, multi cultural, and it's such

2343
02:27:12,760 --> 02:27:17,920
Speaker 1: a big part of like our entire history and identity.

2344
02:27:18,040 --> 02:27:24,160
Speaker 1: And so if the choices being you know, under Serb

2345
02:27:24,280 --> 02:27:29,199
Speaker 1: control being secondary citizens, not having that equality, not having

2346
02:27:29,200 --> 02:27:33,000
Speaker 1: that multi ethnicity. Of course we're not going to take

2347
02:27:33,000 --> 02:27:35,000
Speaker 1: that choice. Of course, people are gonna want to you know,

2348
02:27:35,560 --> 02:27:38,480
Speaker 1: when when you have like that, you know, that boot

2349
02:27:38,560 --> 02:27:42,000
Speaker 1: on your neck of saying like we're going to control you,

2350
02:27:42,120 --> 02:27:44,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna take your land and we're gonna basically rule

2351
02:27:45,040 --> 02:27:48,080
Speaker 1: over you. Nobody wants to deal with that. And you know,

2352
02:27:48,280 --> 02:27:53,600
Speaker 1: unlike a lot of the other countries in former Yugoslavia,

2353
02:27:54,240 --> 02:27:58,000
Speaker 1: Bosia really was the most multi ethnic. It had one

2354
02:27:58,040 --> 02:28:02,160
Speaker 1: of the highest rates of you know, make ethnic marriages

2355
02:28:02,200 --> 02:28:06,360
Speaker 1: and multi religious marriages, and that kind of remains true

2356
02:28:06,400 --> 02:28:12,039
Speaker 1: even today. So especially in places like sary Evo, Mostad, Baneluka,

2357
02:28:12,120 --> 02:28:15,080
Speaker 1: you know, the bigger cities, it has this very proud

2358
02:28:15,240 --> 02:28:19,800
Speaker 1: history of you know, coexistence and multi ethnic co existence.

2359
02:28:20,080 --> 02:28:25,000
Speaker 1: So I think what happened for so many people was

2360
02:28:25,320 --> 02:28:29,480
Speaker 1: just a huge amount of shock. Um, my own family,

2361
02:28:29,720 --> 02:28:32,280
Speaker 1: so many people in my own family just did not

2362
02:28:32,520 --> 02:28:36,920
Speaker 1: think it could happen. Now. They grew up with this

2363
02:28:37,040 --> 02:28:43,519
Speaker 1: idea of a united you know, multi ethnic Yugoslavia, brotherhood

2364
02:28:43,520 --> 02:28:48,400
Speaker 1: and unity. These are our neighbors, our friends, our teachers,

2365
02:28:48,600 --> 02:28:53,600
Speaker 1: are lovers, you know whatever. There they work with us.

2366
02:28:53,600 --> 02:28:55,560
Speaker 1: They live next to us. Of course they're not gonna

2367
02:28:55,560 --> 02:28:59,280
Speaker 1: have you know, turn against us. And I think even

2368
02:29:00,040 --> 02:29:03,760
Speaker 1: while all the politicians were fearmongering, while you know, Midloshevitch

2369
02:29:03,879 --> 02:29:07,480
Speaker 1: and Kinda Dutes were sort of leading their campaigns of

2370
02:29:07,640 --> 02:29:13,440
Speaker 1: you know, especially as lamophobic provacad propaganda, um, you know,

2371
02:29:13,520 --> 02:29:17,160
Speaker 1: in in newspapers, on the radio, on TV, any chance

2372
02:29:17,280 --> 02:29:20,320
Speaker 1: that any speech that they gave, they talked about how

2373
02:29:20,360 --> 02:29:22,240
Speaker 1: the Muslims were coming, we were going to make their

2374
02:29:22,320 --> 02:29:25,400
Speaker 1: daughters wear her jobs, we were gonna take over. We're

2375
02:29:25,400 --> 02:29:28,240
Speaker 1: going to kill them, you know before that's why they

2376
02:29:28,320 --> 02:29:30,280
Speaker 1: have to kill us, because they don't pill us, We're

2377
02:29:30,280 --> 02:29:32,520
Speaker 1: going to kill them. It was just whole, you know,

2378
02:29:33,360 --> 02:29:38,160
Speaker 1: really brilliant propaganda campaign in so many ways that has

2379
02:29:38,200 --> 02:29:42,480
Speaker 1: now been replicated and so many other Can we talk

2380
02:29:42,520 --> 02:29:45,880
Speaker 1: about that specifically for yes? Second, because I think there's

2381
02:29:45,879 --> 02:29:51,600
Speaker 1: something interesting in the way that like the way that

2382
02:29:51,640 --> 02:29:54,120
Speaker 1: you get people to do with genocide always seems to

2383
02:29:54,160 --> 02:29:57,879
Speaker 1: be like you can't. It's extremely hard to get someone

2384
02:29:57,959 --> 02:30:01,199
Speaker 1: to like just murder or their neighbor because they don't

2385
02:30:01,200 --> 02:30:03,600
Speaker 1: like them. You have to do this like they're about

2386
02:30:03,640 --> 02:30:05,320
Speaker 1: to exterminate us, and that's why we have to like

2387
02:30:05,520 --> 02:30:09,120
Speaker 1: strike first and that. Yeah, that that that aspect of it,

2388
02:30:09,160 --> 02:30:11,520
Speaker 1: I think is is something that I see a lot

2389
02:30:11,720 --> 02:30:14,320
Speaker 1: when when I do this. Andy, you you have you

2390
02:30:14,360 --> 02:30:18,600
Speaker 1: have done more geneside studies. I want to hear. Yeah.

2391
02:30:18,760 --> 02:30:22,240
Speaker 1: I mean here's the thing. Um, it's so funny. I

2392
02:30:22,280 --> 02:30:25,680
Speaker 1: gave like an interview UM on this specific topic I

2393
02:30:25,720 --> 02:30:28,840
Speaker 1: don't know, like two years ago, and I remember turning

2394
02:30:28,959 --> 02:30:31,080
Speaker 1: to the guy who was interviewing me because he was

2395
02:30:31,120 --> 02:30:34,760
Speaker 1: just like his look on his face was I just

2396
02:30:34,840 --> 02:30:37,640
Speaker 1: don't understand, Like I don't. I can't wrap my mind

2397
02:30:37,680 --> 02:30:41,879
Speaker 1: about how people could do that to their friends, neighbors, students,

2398
02:30:42,280 --> 02:30:45,800
Speaker 1: you know, people they were sworn to like protect and

2399
02:30:45,800 --> 02:30:49,160
Speaker 1: and people they lived with their entire lives. How could

2400
02:30:49,160 --> 02:30:51,760
Speaker 1: they do that? Well, you know, I turned to him

2401
02:30:51,800 --> 02:30:53,360
Speaker 1: and I said, yeah, I mean, if I told you

2402
02:30:53,440 --> 02:30:57,039
Speaker 1: right now go kill him, you know you probably wouldn't.

2403
02:30:57,480 --> 02:31:01,360
Speaker 1: But if I came to you, they in and day out.

2404
02:31:01,879 --> 02:31:05,039
Speaker 1: And I slowly started to kind of whisper in your ear,

2405
02:31:05,920 --> 02:31:08,840
Speaker 1: and I started to tell you, you know, he's been

2406
02:31:08,879 --> 02:31:11,320
Speaker 1: really really I don't know, he's been saying a lot

2407
02:31:11,360 --> 02:31:15,240
Speaker 1: of stuff about you. He's been quite negative. Or I

2408
02:31:15,280 --> 02:31:17,640
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, do you think he's kind of

2409
02:31:17,680 --> 02:31:20,480
Speaker 1: acting weird. I feel like he might be planning something.

2410
02:31:20,920 --> 02:31:22,840
Speaker 1: You may be planning to take over your house. You

2411
02:31:22,920 --> 02:31:25,880
Speaker 1: may be planning to I don't know, probably attack your sister.

2412
02:31:25,920 --> 02:31:27,720
Speaker 1: I think he's going to kill your sister. I think

2413
02:31:27,720 --> 02:31:29,840
Speaker 1: you might make your sister wear her job. So it's

2414
02:31:29,879 --> 02:31:32,800
Speaker 1: these very like slow, subtle things. And that's the thing

2415
02:31:32,800 --> 02:31:37,959
Speaker 1: that people don't understand. You know. Violence never interrupts, like,

2416
02:31:38,959 --> 02:31:43,800
Speaker 1: never erupts out of nowhere, you know it. It's always planned.

2417
02:31:44,560 --> 02:31:47,119
Speaker 1: It bruised, and it bruise, and it bruise and then

2418
02:31:47,160 --> 02:31:49,640
Speaker 1: it explodes. You know. Then there's the thing. But it

2419
02:31:50,400 --> 02:31:52,960
Speaker 1: comes slowly. And that's how it wasn't Yo Slavia. It

2420
02:31:53,040 --> 02:31:58,000
Speaker 1: wasn't this sudden. You know. Oh, yes, we're brothers and sisters. Forever,

2421
02:31:58,120 --> 02:32:01,400
Speaker 1: go Tito, go Yugoslavia to you know, Oh, I hate

2422
02:32:01,440 --> 02:32:03,200
Speaker 1: you because you're Muslim, and I hate you because you're

2423
02:32:03,200 --> 02:32:05,240
Speaker 1: a servant. I hate you because you're croact. No, that

2424
02:32:05,360 --> 02:32:07,879
Speaker 1: was not the case. The case was that this was

2425
02:32:07,920 --> 02:32:12,920
Speaker 1: a very slow campaign of propaganda that started in the eighties,

2426
02:32:13,520 --> 02:32:18,400
Speaker 1: almost immediately after Tito's that let's say it started very slow,

2427
02:32:19,360 --> 02:32:21,480
Speaker 1: started with the you know, with the sort of I

2428
02:32:21,520 --> 02:32:27,320
Speaker 1: think disenfranchisement of the coast of all Albanians um and

2429
02:32:27,440 --> 02:32:31,480
Speaker 1: kind of the targeting of them um. And again yes

2430
02:32:31,480 --> 02:32:33,879
Speaker 1: there was this economic component on of it, but the

2431
02:32:33,879 --> 02:32:38,119
Speaker 1: way they wanted to kind of sidetrack that was, you know, well,

2432
02:32:38,160 --> 02:32:42,240
Speaker 1: you're you're hungry because the coast of Albanians are not,

2433
02:32:42,680 --> 02:32:47,600
Speaker 1: you know, and they're taking your jobs again some more uh,

2434
02:32:47,640 --> 02:32:51,480
Speaker 1: you know tactics that we see. Yeah, so it's not

2435
02:32:51,600 --> 02:32:53,760
Speaker 1: it's not that much different, but yeah, you know, it

2436
02:32:53,879 --> 02:32:58,160
Speaker 1: starts slow and and the militievitch and the katage and

2437
02:32:58,200 --> 02:33:01,720
Speaker 1: the melodic kind of campaign. Thing was God, it was brutal.

2438
02:33:01,840 --> 02:33:03,640
Speaker 1: I mean, like I always say, it was kind of

2439
02:33:03,720 --> 02:33:09,000
Speaker 1: brilliantly executed in that it really got to people so

2440
02:33:09,080 --> 02:33:12,039
Speaker 1: much that then again, you know, they turned neighbor against neighbor.

2441
02:33:12,760 --> 02:33:16,840
Speaker 1: It was it was subtle in the beginning. It was

2442
02:33:16,920 --> 02:33:19,800
Speaker 1: that sort of what are the Muslims up to? Can

2443
02:33:19,840 --> 02:33:22,240
Speaker 1: we trust them? Can you trust your neighbor? Can you

2444
02:33:22,280 --> 02:33:26,560
Speaker 1: trust the Muslims? You know, talking about islam sization, talking

2445
02:33:26,600 --> 02:33:29,200
Speaker 1: about Alia is a Bigga, which is book that he

2446
02:33:29,240 --> 02:33:32,440
Speaker 1: wrote when he was like I don't know eighteen or whatever,

2447
02:33:32,760 --> 02:33:36,760
Speaker 1: like and you know, talking about World War Two, this

2448
02:33:36,800 --> 02:33:40,280
Speaker 1: was another thing. Like like everybody knows that there was

2449
02:33:40,320 --> 02:33:42,520
Speaker 1: a period in World War Two where you know, a

2450
02:33:42,560 --> 02:33:45,680
Speaker 1: lot of service were killed by the Gustsia UH and

2451
02:33:45,720 --> 02:33:50,280
Speaker 1: by the Nazi collaborationists. And I think obviously that's a

2452
02:33:50,360 --> 02:33:53,280
Speaker 1: real fear for you know, for a certain group of

2453
02:33:53,320 --> 02:33:55,959
Speaker 1: people who went through that. So there was a lot

2454
02:33:55,959 --> 02:33:57,840
Speaker 1: of that as well. You know, that's going to happen again,

2455
02:33:57,879 --> 02:34:02,520
Speaker 1: That's gonna happen again. Meanwhile, there was no grand plan.

2456
02:34:02,720 --> 02:34:07,160
Speaker 1: There was never even talks of you know, committing violence

2457
02:34:07,720 --> 02:34:10,960
Speaker 1: or even you know, talks of you know, seceding from

2458
02:34:11,040 --> 02:34:17,200
Speaker 1: Yugoslavia or anything. It was all it was all set

2459
02:34:17,240 --> 02:34:21,360
Speaker 1: in motion by the Serbian leadership, you know. And I

2460
02:34:21,400 --> 02:34:26,760
Speaker 1: think that's what people don't understand. The Bousian leadership, while

2461
02:34:26,800 --> 02:34:30,959
Speaker 1: not perfect, we're simply reacting to what the Serbian leadership

2462
02:34:31,000 --> 02:34:35,160
Speaker 1: was in many ways making them do. And and that's

2463
02:34:35,240 --> 02:34:39,000
Speaker 1: kind of where, you know, what happens in these situations.

2464
02:34:39,080 --> 02:34:40,480
Speaker 1: You know, they kind of push you and push you

2465
02:34:40,520 --> 02:34:44,280
Speaker 1: and push you until they're able to get you know,

2466
02:34:44,640 --> 02:34:47,280
Speaker 1: some sort of rise out of you or response out

2467
02:34:47,280 --> 02:34:49,960
Speaker 1: of you, or or get you on that sort of

2468
02:34:49,959 --> 02:34:53,120
Speaker 1: offensive where you have to defend yourself, you have to

2469
02:34:53,160 --> 02:34:55,160
Speaker 1: defend your identity, you have to defend who you are,

2470
02:34:55,240 --> 02:35:00,240
Speaker 1: you have to justify it also in many ways. So yeah,

2471
02:35:01,080 --> 02:35:04,880
Speaker 1: the you know those sort of propaganda campaign God, there

2472
02:35:05,000 --> 02:35:08,800
Speaker 1: was you know, obviously the funny things were like things

2473
02:35:08,800 --> 02:35:10,320
Speaker 1: like they're going to make you wear the hit job.

2474
02:35:10,520 --> 02:35:15,000
Speaker 1: But it was also very insiduous because they would target

2475
02:35:16,120 --> 02:35:21,600
Speaker 1: like these you know villages where they were like Bosnians

2476
02:35:21,680 --> 02:35:25,039
Speaker 1: and Serbs, you know, living together, and they're quite small,

2477
02:35:26,040 --> 02:35:29,080
Speaker 1: but they knew that like in the village obviously usually

2478
02:35:29,080 --> 02:35:31,600
Speaker 1: have a gun or you know shotgun because of the

2479
02:35:31,640 --> 02:35:35,080
Speaker 1: animals or you know, working or whatever. So they were

2480
02:35:35,120 --> 02:35:38,320
Speaker 1: like target them specifically with like the you know, the

2481
02:35:38,440 --> 02:35:42,840
Speaker 1: radio and instead of like the big cities, like they

2482
02:35:42,879 --> 02:35:45,520
Speaker 1: worked up to the big cities, but they really started

2483
02:35:45,520 --> 02:35:49,200
Speaker 1: in like specific sort of areas, like in eastern Bosnia,

2484
02:35:49,320 --> 02:35:52,200
Speaker 1: especially because there was like a lot of UM i

2485
02:35:52,240 --> 02:35:56,520
Speaker 1: think majority Muslim like villages in that area that would

2486
02:35:56,520 --> 02:36:00,000
Speaker 1: also have like nearby served villages. So yeah, I mean

2487
02:36:00,000 --> 02:36:01,920
Speaker 1: it was that there was you know then sort of

2488
02:36:01,920 --> 02:36:07,879
Speaker 1: taking over all the radio stations and UM kind of

2489
02:36:07,879 --> 02:36:10,680
Speaker 1: going full force they think, like in the sort of

2490
02:36:10,760 --> 02:36:17,640
Speaker 1: early days of the war, like we're talking April May,

2491
02:36:18,640 --> 02:36:23,280
Speaker 1: they you know, they would get people like pretending that

2492
02:36:23,320 --> 02:36:26,280
Speaker 1: they were Bosnians, they were actually Serbs, and they would

2493
02:36:26,320 --> 02:36:29,240
Speaker 1: like talk about how they went to you know, kill

2494
02:36:29,280 --> 02:36:32,720
Speaker 1: all Serbs or something like that. Um. There was also

2495
02:36:32,760 --> 02:36:35,840
Speaker 1: when they were like having people in concentration camps, when

2496
02:36:35,840 --> 02:36:38,600
Speaker 1: they started kind of putting them in those concentration kIPS.

2497
02:36:38,600 --> 02:36:44,879
Speaker 1: Initially they they would make the victims in the concentration

2498
02:36:45,000 --> 02:36:49,360
Speaker 1: camps the Muslims basically, you know, say that, oh, they're

2499
02:36:49,400 --> 02:36:54,600
Speaker 1: just there as a refugee and the Serbian army is

2500
02:36:54,640 --> 02:36:58,039
Speaker 1: like protecting them, and they're making you feel really welcome

2501
02:36:58,160 --> 02:37:01,400
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. So it is right at the

2502
02:37:01,440 --> 02:37:08,080
Speaker 1: beginning between especially eighty nine to like the propaganda was

2503
02:37:08,240 --> 02:37:13,000
Speaker 1: so visible and it really escalated, and it was like

2504
02:37:13,120 --> 02:37:18,840
Speaker 1: suddenly everywhere and you would hear Cartgic and Middle Bershovitch

2505
02:37:18,959 --> 02:37:23,200
Speaker 1: talk about you know, the Muslims and the things that

2506
02:37:23,280 --> 02:37:26,640
Speaker 1: we wanted and you know, the things that the goals

2507
02:37:26,680 --> 02:37:28,879
Speaker 1: that we had, which after all, we're not you know,

2508
02:37:29,640 --> 02:37:32,200
Speaker 1: nobody was saying it. There wasn't like a single person

2509
02:37:32,280 --> 02:37:34,920
Speaker 1: that was saying these things that they were attributing to us,

2510
02:37:35,320 --> 02:37:38,039
Speaker 1: but that didn't matter. What they were just doing was

2511
02:37:38,080 --> 02:37:42,160
Speaker 1: instilling enough fear and enough doubt in the population to

2512
02:37:42,280 --> 02:37:45,320
Speaker 1: eventually get them to take up arms when the time comes.

2513
02:37:46,560 --> 02:37:49,800
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, that's precisely what happened. When the time came.

2514
02:37:50,879 --> 02:37:52,640
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people did take up arms,

2515
02:37:52,800 --> 02:37:55,680
Speaker 1: whether or not they wanted to. They had enough of

2516
02:37:55,760 --> 02:37:59,440
Speaker 1: that doubt and fear so in their minds over the

2517
02:37:59,440 --> 02:38:02,000
Speaker 1: course of you know, several years that they ended up

2518
02:38:02,879 --> 02:38:06,480
Speaker 1: feeling like I have to protect myself. And I'm not

2519
02:38:06,520 --> 02:38:08,959
Speaker 1: saying that's the case for every certain person. I think

2520
02:38:09,120 --> 02:38:14,840
Speaker 1: some a lot of you know, especially in higher leadership emissions,

2521
02:38:14,879 --> 02:38:17,960
Speaker 1: a lot of them were just sociopaths who wanted to kill.

2522
02:38:18,040 --> 02:38:22,320
Speaker 1: And I don't think it mattered why or how, because

2523
02:38:22,360 --> 02:38:25,120
Speaker 1: you're always going to get those kind of people. But

2524
02:38:25,240 --> 02:38:30,680
Speaker 1: I think when we're talking about how how that shift

2525
02:38:30,720 --> 02:38:34,120
Speaker 1: happened so last, we have to obviously discuss the propaganda.

2526
02:38:34,680 --> 02:38:37,720
Speaker 1: The huge amount of propaganda that I went into, uh,

2527
02:38:37,879 --> 02:38:45,560
Speaker 1: you know, implementing it such a tangent that was that

2528
02:38:45,600 --> 02:38:49,120
Speaker 1: was really great. Yeah, I think, you know, yeah, I mean,

2529
02:38:49,280 --> 02:38:54,560
Speaker 1: I guess, like, I think it's incredibly important for everyone

2530
02:38:54,560 --> 02:38:57,640
Speaker 1: to understand that propaganda works, like if you just say

2531
02:38:57,680 --> 02:39:00,119
Speaker 1: something over and over and over again, like it does

2532
02:39:00,920 --> 02:39:04,320
Speaker 1: you know of event eventually it pays off. And you

2533
02:39:04,320 --> 02:39:08,000
Speaker 1: know the quote unquote payoff here is the genocide. And

2534
02:39:08,160 --> 02:39:12,760
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I'm not sure how far into detail

2535
02:39:12,840 --> 02:39:15,920
Speaker 1: you want to get into this here, but but I

2536
02:39:15,959 --> 02:39:20,000
Speaker 1: think one thing I want to kind of focus on

2537
02:39:20,040 --> 02:39:23,000
Speaker 1: because I think from from reading what you've been saying

2538
02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:27,040
Speaker 1: about this, that this wound up being a big deal

2539
02:39:27,080 --> 02:39:29,760
Speaker 1: with like why things are sort of still fucked now,

2540
02:39:29,879 --> 02:39:33,840
Speaker 1: which is that like the international response to this. Like

2541
02:39:33,840 --> 02:39:35,120
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things I'm always just like

2542
02:39:35,160 --> 02:39:38,800
Speaker 1: haunted by is there's this quote by mid Irand who's

2543
02:39:38,879 --> 02:39:41,440
Speaker 1: the Prome Mr of France. He's like this, he wants

2544
02:39:41,440 --> 02:39:43,000
Speaker 1: to be the socialist. He's like the guy that like

2545
02:39:43,040 --> 02:39:44,920
Speaker 1: they finally put in power after like all of the

2546
02:39:44,920 --> 02:39:46,960
Speaker 1: stuff in the sixties, and he has this lying about

2547
02:39:46,959 --> 02:39:50,960
Speaker 1: like I'm sorry, I wish I wish I had told

2548
02:39:51,000 --> 02:39:57,280
Speaker 1: up the exact quote, but it's it's basically like io, yeah,

2549
02:39:57,400 --> 02:40:01,120
Speaker 1: do you want to say, I don't remember the exactly, Um,

2550
02:40:01,160 --> 02:40:08,000
Speaker 1: it's the it's what was it up? Peaceful but necessary

2551
02:40:08,920 --> 02:40:14,760
Speaker 1: reconstruction of a Christian europe Um and Bosnia does not belong.

2552
02:40:16,120 --> 02:40:20,560
Speaker 1: So I remember that differently. It's really stayed with me

2553
02:40:20,640 --> 02:40:22,920
Speaker 1: for such a long time because he said that at

2554
02:40:22,920 --> 02:40:28,680
Speaker 1: a time where the Bosnian Muslims were just completely defenseless. Um,

2555
02:40:28,720 --> 02:40:31,600
Speaker 1: they were being dragged the way to concentrate to shim camps.

2556
02:40:31,640 --> 02:40:35,520
Speaker 1: The massacres were already well underway. We're not talking about Stuberdance.

2557
02:40:36,680 --> 02:40:43,600
Speaker 1: We're talking about sorry about uh um even Stub nine two.

2558
02:40:43,680 --> 02:40:47,080
Speaker 1: You know, this is all, um, the things that happened

2559
02:40:47,080 --> 02:40:50,680
Speaker 1: in places like witchcoins running and all these like places

2560
02:40:50,720 --> 02:40:53,360
Speaker 1: that you that I think the vast majority of people

2561
02:40:53,400 --> 02:40:57,879
Speaker 1: don't really know about any here about, like in a

2562
02:40:57,920 --> 02:41:00,160
Speaker 1: lot of my family is from there. With in a

2563
02:41:00,240 --> 02:41:05,279
Speaker 1: span of three months, that entire town, the entire town

2564
02:41:05,360 --> 02:41:13,240
Speaker 1: which was once almost entirely Bosnia muslim Um, was ethnically cleansed,

2565
02:41:13,760 --> 02:41:18,480
Speaker 1: and that was done through forced deportations, concentration camps, mass

2566
02:41:18,600 --> 02:41:21,600
Speaker 1: rapes and rape camps of women and obviously a lot

2567
02:41:21,680 --> 02:41:24,440
Speaker 1: of murders. You know. So we're talking about one small

2568
02:41:24,520 --> 02:41:28,959
Speaker 1: town that took you know, three three months, and my

2569
02:41:29,120 --> 02:41:32,480
Speaker 1: family when it comes to that town, on both my

2570
02:41:32,560 --> 02:41:35,600
Speaker 1: mother's and my father's side, interestingly enough, has like such

2571
02:41:35,600 --> 02:41:38,160
Speaker 1: a long history. My parents fell in love there when

2572
02:41:38,160 --> 02:41:41,520
Speaker 1: they were like kids. So you know, they you know,

2573
02:41:41,600 --> 02:41:44,800
Speaker 1: my grandmother's house was there, my grandfather's house was there,

2574
02:41:45,640 --> 02:41:48,720
Speaker 1: um on like both sides and they, you know, so

2575
02:41:49,160 --> 02:41:53,240
Speaker 1: is this beautiful little town where you know Bosnians then

2576
02:41:53,440 --> 02:41:57,039
Speaker 1: Bosniaks and Serves and CoA hads lived in Jews Roma

2577
02:41:57,080 --> 02:42:00,640
Speaker 1: and you know, my parents talked about beauty of it

2578
02:42:00,840 --> 02:42:03,640
Speaker 1: and this wonderful sort of experience that they had when

2579
02:42:03,680 --> 02:42:07,240
Speaker 1: they lived there. My mom is from saraebo Um and

2580
02:42:07,560 --> 02:42:10,280
Speaker 1: I saw my as well obviously, but the change was

2581
02:42:10,320 --> 02:42:12,040
Speaker 1: like the place that she would go kind of like

2582
02:42:12,080 --> 02:42:13,920
Speaker 1: for the weekend just because of the family that we

2583
02:42:13,959 --> 02:42:17,920
Speaker 1: had there. UM so very special, I think in her

2584
02:42:17,959 --> 02:42:23,520
Speaker 1: heart my grandpa's heart as well, and you know, within

2585
02:42:24,920 --> 02:42:28,320
Speaker 1: it's just like so hard to like fathom that within

2586
02:42:29,120 --> 02:42:32,039
Speaker 1: just a few months that talent was completely ethnically climes

2587
02:42:32,800 --> 02:42:36,680
Speaker 1: and that the international community knew this and did nothing.

2588
02:42:37,040 --> 02:42:40,200
Speaker 1: You know, there is and I believe it's in the

2589
02:42:40,200 --> 02:42:43,119
Speaker 1: Clinton tapes as well, but there's this thing about how

2590
02:42:43,720 --> 02:42:47,400
Speaker 1: they had provided aerial footage of the massacres that were

2591
02:42:47,440 --> 02:42:51,200
Speaker 1: being that were being enacted in places like Pittical and

2592
02:42:51,480 --> 02:42:56,640
Speaker 1: Vonnique where, oh my god, depare military served forces did

2593
02:42:56,760 --> 02:43:05,760
Speaker 1: some horror, horrifying acts of violence and torture against the civilians. UM.

2594
02:43:05,800 --> 02:43:08,360
Speaker 1: And they had you know, showed it to the Clintons,

2595
02:43:08,440 --> 02:43:11,320
Speaker 1: and they showed it to the French and the English,

2596
02:43:11,360 --> 02:43:16,920
Speaker 1: and they did nothing. You know, they knew that a

2597
02:43:17,040 --> 02:43:20,720
Speaker 1: genocide was unfolding, UM. And the Day in Peace Agreement

2598
02:43:21,360 --> 02:43:28,400
Speaker 1: wasn't signed until so the international UM community I think

2599
02:43:29,080 --> 02:43:35,640
Speaker 1: as just as much of a responsibility in the you know,

2600
02:43:35,720 --> 02:43:40,000
Speaker 1: the genocide of the Bosniaks as Serbia does, because they

2601
02:43:40,040 --> 02:43:42,600
Speaker 1: sat there, they watched when they had all the power

2602
02:43:42,640 --> 02:43:45,640
Speaker 1: to stop it. They always had the power to stop it.

2603
02:43:45,680 --> 02:43:47,480
Speaker 1: They had the power to stop it before it even

2604
02:43:47,640 --> 02:43:52,080
Speaker 1: before even one person got killed, um. And and two

2605
02:43:53,280 --> 02:43:56,840
Speaker 1: they it's not even that they just watched, it's that

2606
02:43:56,920 --> 02:44:02,039
Speaker 1: they purposely left the Muslims defenseless. Guys. Serbia had all

2607
02:44:02,160 --> 02:44:08,160
Speaker 1: the Yugoslav army, all the weapons, all the you know, everything,

2608
02:44:08,240 --> 02:44:10,600
Speaker 1: all the tools that they needed to commit j other's side.

2609
02:44:10,640 --> 02:44:16,360
Speaker 1: They already had it, all the arsenal everything, um and

2610
02:44:16,400 --> 02:44:19,240
Speaker 1: you do, it was army was like the most powerful

2611
02:44:19,280 --> 02:44:23,120
Speaker 1: in the region at the time, and I think the fourth, third,

2612
02:44:23,440 --> 02:44:30,200
Speaker 1: third or fourth most powerful in like the europe Turkey areas,

2613
02:44:30,240 --> 02:44:34,360
Speaker 1: so we you know, quite a powerful army. And there

2614
02:44:34,440 --> 02:44:40,440
Speaker 1: was Bosnia which had no weapons, no military um. You know,

2615
02:44:40,520 --> 02:44:45,600
Speaker 1: you see these pictures of like civilians fighting against you know,

2616
02:44:46,160 --> 02:44:51,440
Speaker 1: tanks and mortar shells and snipers, and it's like these

2617
02:44:51,520 --> 02:44:55,280
Speaker 1: you know, youths basically and like converse and jeans and

2618
02:44:55,400 --> 02:45:00,720
Speaker 1: like an army jacket playing soldier because that's all we had,

2619
02:45:00,760 --> 02:45:04,320
Speaker 1: you know, we had the homemade weapons, we had um

2620
02:45:04,360 --> 02:45:09,080
Speaker 1: you know, how to make your own bomb books kind

2621
02:45:09,080 --> 02:45:12,760
Speaker 1: of thing, and trying to basically descend ourselves with anything

2622
02:45:12,800 --> 02:45:18,680
Speaker 1: that we could. Um. They specifically did not lift the

2623
02:45:18,800 --> 02:45:23,280
Speaker 1: arms embargo, knowing that they were leaving us defense less.

2624
02:45:23,280 --> 02:45:26,520
Speaker 1: Like they just knew there was no way. There's no

2625
02:45:26,600 --> 02:45:29,520
Speaker 1: doubt on everything that we have read about the international

2626
02:45:29,560 --> 02:45:36,840
Speaker 1: community response, everything that Clinton mean John mayor Major Major

2627
02:45:37,160 --> 02:45:41,280
Speaker 1: um not mayor Major have said you know about it

2628
02:45:41,440 --> 02:45:45,400
Speaker 1: during that period shows us that they absolutely knew that

2629
02:45:45,440 --> 02:45:49,000
Speaker 1: we were defenseless, you know, and this wasn't you know

2630
02:45:49,000 --> 02:45:51,240
Speaker 1: a lot of people say I didn't know about the

2631
02:45:51,240 --> 02:45:56,160
Speaker 1: Bosnian genocide, but it was discussed you know, I've looked

2632
02:45:56,200 --> 02:45:59,160
Speaker 1: at the archived footage. Um, it was talked about, it

2633
02:45:59,160 --> 02:46:02,440
Speaker 1: on television, was brought up in parliament, and incentive that

2634
02:46:02,800 --> 02:46:05,320
Speaker 1: was people at the time who are like, why are

2635
02:46:05,360 --> 02:46:09,720
Speaker 1: we leaving the Bosnians defense lives? Why are we you know,

2636
02:46:10,200 --> 02:46:13,039
Speaker 1: not helping them, Why are we allowing them to be

2637
02:46:13,080 --> 02:46:15,760
Speaker 1: allowed into slaughter? This is genocide blah blah blah. So

2638
02:46:15,840 --> 02:46:18,960
Speaker 1: even as early as there was still people who knew

2639
02:46:19,000 --> 02:46:23,520
Speaker 1: about this stuff, we're telling the leaders but nothing. Yeah,

2640
02:46:23,920 --> 02:46:26,160
Speaker 1: I think I think like that part also, like it's

2641
02:46:26,160 --> 02:46:28,920
Speaker 1: it's not just that like they did nothing, like they

2642
02:46:29,120 --> 02:46:31,720
Speaker 1: like they did worse than doing nothing, like mitterrans actively

2643
02:46:31,760 --> 02:46:36,160
Speaker 1: cheering it on, Like you know, the arms embargo is

2644
02:46:36,200 --> 02:46:39,040
Speaker 1: just like the arms embargo if you're applying in arms

2645
02:46:39,040 --> 02:46:43,280
Speaker 1: in bargo on a conflict where one people one side

2646
02:46:43,360 --> 02:46:46,080
Speaker 1: has tanks and the other side has like molotovs, like

2647
02:46:46,160 --> 02:46:48,640
Speaker 1: you are actively supporting one of the sides. And I

2648
02:46:48,640 --> 02:46:52,240
Speaker 1: think that like that just like is completely lost in

2649
02:46:52,320 --> 02:46:56,760
Speaker 1: how like almost everyone seems to talk about this now

2650
02:46:56,840 --> 02:47:00,200
Speaker 1: because there's like you know, because because when you word

2651
02:47:00,200 --> 02:47:03,600
Speaker 1: of get like interventions later, like people are like, oh, look,

2652
02:47:03,640 --> 02:47:05,760
Speaker 1: the West was like planning to intervene here the whole time,

2653
02:47:05,800 --> 02:47:10,640
Speaker 1: and it's like no, like they were literally cheering, was cheering,

2654
02:47:10,720 --> 02:47:15,280
Speaker 1: Like it's like it's so frustrating because you know, we

2655
02:47:15,720 --> 02:47:19,280
Speaker 1: you take what we know about. And here's the thing.

2656
02:47:19,400 --> 02:47:24,320
Speaker 1: I know that Islamophobia escalated after nine eleven, but is

2657
02:47:24,320 --> 02:47:27,800
Speaker 1: Islamophobia has existed for a very long time. And I

2658
02:47:27,840 --> 02:47:32,200
Speaker 1: think talked to the black Muslims of America, they will

2659
02:47:32,240 --> 02:47:34,400
Speaker 1: tell you more, you know, better than than I could

2660
02:47:34,400 --> 02:47:37,039
Speaker 1: ever tell you about the history of Islamophobia in the

2661
02:47:37,160 --> 02:47:41,840
Speaker 1: United States. So it's Alamophobia was always an aspect of life.

2662
02:47:42,080 --> 02:47:45,720
Speaker 1: And in Europe, Islamophobia just like anti Semitism. I mean,

2663
02:47:45,879 --> 02:47:51,560
Speaker 1: it is like the staple of European cultural cuisine. So

2664
02:47:51,680 --> 02:47:54,400
Speaker 1: to say yeah, it's like it's like yeah, it's like

2665
02:47:54,400 --> 02:47:56,120
Speaker 1: that there's there's a there's a there's they have they

2666
02:47:56,120 --> 02:47:57,520
Speaker 1: have like they have like the like the the tri

2667
02:47:57,640 --> 02:48:02,560
Speaker 1: force of Europeans of European civilization is anti Semitism, Islamophobia

2668
02:48:02,720 --> 02:48:08,760
Speaker 1: and hating the roma, just like how for the force.

2669
02:48:08,879 --> 02:48:12,160
Speaker 1: And so I think the sort of thing about the

2670
02:48:12,280 --> 02:48:17,560
Speaker 1: explicitness of European leadership, especially at the time in in

2671
02:48:19,120 --> 02:48:23,120
Speaker 1: you know, effectively ensuring that we were killed off because

2672
02:48:23,840 --> 02:48:29,240
Speaker 1: a Muslim country in Europe could not exist. And that's

2673
02:48:29,280 --> 02:48:31,800
Speaker 1: the thing that they said, literally set a Muslim country

2674
02:48:31,800 --> 02:48:37,680
Speaker 1: in Europe cannot exist. Like the fact that that was

2675
02:48:37,720 --> 02:48:41,520
Speaker 1: so open and brazen like kind of takes me back,

2676
02:48:41,600 --> 02:48:46,640
Speaker 1: but it really like tells you how much is Lamophobia informed.

2677
02:48:46,840 --> 02:48:49,920
Speaker 1: I think the international community responds on this, and it's

2678
02:48:49,959 --> 02:48:53,200
Speaker 1: so interesting to me now. I think I've seen it

2679
02:48:53,280 --> 02:48:55,480
Speaker 1: over the past, I would say, especially five years, the

2680
02:48:55,560 --> 02:49:01,600
Speaker 1: sort of leftist genocide and leftist anti imperialist kind of

2681
02:49:01,640 --> 02:49:05,440
Speaker 1: defense of Miloshevich. And oh they were the you know,

2682
02:49:05,520 --> 02:49:07,560
Speaker 1: the serves with the actual victims, blah blah blah and

2683
02:49:07,640 --> 02:49:11,200
Speaker 1: NATO blah blah blah, Western intervention. And I'm just like, oh,

2684
02:49:11,240 --> 02:49:13,600
Speaker 1: my god, read a book, read an article from that,

2685
02:49:14,040 --> 02:49:17,119
Speaker 1: read their actual quotes. There's no way that you can

2686
02:49:17,160 --> 02:49:22,760
Speaker 1: actually convince me that Europe, fortress Europe, and the United

2687
02:49:22,760 --> 02:49:26,320
Speaker 1: States of America would do anything that would benefit, you know,

2688
02:49:26,440 --> 02:49:28,879
Speaker 1: the Muslims. Was this what was one of the things

2689
02:49:28,920 --> 02:49:31,800
Speaker 1: I think was it's really interesting to me about the

2690
02:49:31,840 --> 02:49:33,400
Speaker 1: way that the sort of like left sand of sides

2691
02:49:33,440 --> 02:49:36,120
Speaker 1: nihilism works, like it always seems to be Regin's homophobia,

2692
02:49:36,160 --> 02:49:39,280
Speaker 1: like and I remember started seeing this with Bosnia too,

2693
02:49:39,320 --> 02:49:41,320
Speaker 1: where they're like, oh, yeah, well it's it's because it's

2694
02:49:41,320 --> 02:49:43,280
Speaker 1: because what's okay, they have two things. One it's like,

2695
02:49:43,360 --> 02:49:45,400
Speaker 1: well that the Bossians were Nazis been. The second one

2696
02:49:45,480 --> 02:49:47,400
Speaker 1: was that, oh, well that the boss the Bossians were

2697
02:49:47,400 --> 02:49:49,560
Speaker 1: like altra hotti ists, and it's like like, it's the

2698
02:49:49,600 --> 02:49:51,640
Speaker 1: exact same thing you see with China, and it's like, oh,

2699
02:49:51,760 --> 02:49:56,360
Speaker 1: it's because all the weakers are like sealafi Jo hottest

2700
02:49:56,400 --> 02:50:00,680
Speaker 1: iss c I A. And it's like no, yeah, I

2701
02:50:00,720 --> 02:50:05,280
Speaker 1: mean it's it's it's honestly laughable at this point. It

2702
02:50:05,360 --> 02:50:08,000
Speaker 1: really is. And it also just you know, obviously I'm

2703
02:50:08,000 --> 02:50:11,320
Speaker 1: a leftist. You know, I'm gonna cheer the left on

2704
02:50:11,520 --> 02:50:14,280
Speaker 1: to an extent, but that is my red line. The

2705
02:50:14,360 --> 02:50:17,640
Speaker 1: genocide anatism really is my red line. And the reason

2706
02:50:17,680 --> 02:50:20,440
Speaker 1: it's it's you know, my red line isn't just because

2707
02:50:20,440 --> 02:50:23,280
Speaker 1: I'm a genocide survivor, but because it's like, oh, for

2708
02:50:23,360 --> 02:50:28,000
Speaker 1: God's sake, the data, the statistics, the research, the forensic

2709
02:50:28,160 --> 02:50:35,240
Speaker 1: the analysis, the specific quotes, videos, articles, uh, you know,

2710
02:50:35,320 --> 02:50:37,560
Speaker 1: all of those things exist and are out there, and

2711
02:50:37,600 --> 02:50:39,600
Speaker 1: all you have to do is actually do your research

2712
02:50:39,640 --> 02:50:41,600
Speaker 1: and you will find out that actually know you're in

2713
02:50:41,640 --> 02:50:44,360
Speaker 1: the wrong. And the other thing is what you just

2714
02:50:44,400 --> 02:50:47,039
Speaker 1: said about the sort of thing of painting you know,

2715
02:50:47,080 --> 02:50:49,920
Speaker 1: the Muslims is like the Nazis and the you know,

2716
02:50:50,000 --> 02:50:54,360
Speaker 1: the extremists. Um. You know, the thing about like the

2717
02:50:54,360 --> 02:50:58,160
Speaker 1: Bazian Muslims is like, we don't hide the fact that

2718
02:50:58,200 --> 02:51:01,440
Speaker 1: there were people of our community they that participated in

2719
02:51:01,560 --> 02:51:07,200
Speaker 1: Nazi crimes. There isn't this goal of concealing those crimes,

2720
02:51:07,320 --> 02:51:11,959
Speaker 1: of minimizing the crimes or pretending that they were right. Um,

2721
02:51:12,000 --> 02:51:14,760
Speaker 1: there is I'm sure a French group of people who

2722
02:51:14,879 --> 02:51:17,520
Speaker 1: defend these kinds of people, Like there is a French

2723
02:51:17,560 --> 02:51:22,119
Speaker 1: when I'm talking about the collective sort of Bosnian Um,

2724
02:51:22,160 --> 02:51:24,879
Speaker 1: you know, state level response as well as like an

2725
02:51:25,040 --> 02:51:30,280
Speaker 1: individual response is that the you know, the Nazi division

2726
02:51:31,080 --> 02:51:36,160
Speaker 1: had like seventeen thousand Bosnians soldiers, and there's millions of

2727
02:51:36,160 --> 02:51:40,039
Speaker 1: Bosnians in the country. The vast majority ended up joining

2728
02:51:40,080 --> 02:51:44,440
Speaker 1: the Partisans and stood against the Nazis. And the thing is,

2729
02:51:44,600 --> 02:51:48,280
Speaker 1: you can't when it comes to Yugoslavia and World War

2730
02:51:48,320 --> 02:51:50,959
Speaker 1: two and the Holocaust, you can't just say that the

2731
02:51:51,000 --> 02:51:54,160
Speaker 1: Bosnians were Nazi lebition ists, because the thing is, so

2732
02:51:54,280 --> 02:51:57,760
Speaker 1: are the Serbians, so are the Serbs, so are the Croats.

2733
02:51:58,320 --> 02:52:01,600
Speaker 1: At that time, Let's be honest, who the hell wasn't

2734
02:52:01,760 --> 02:52:06,600
Speaker 1: a Nazi collaboration is now just doesn't excuse it, absolutely not.

2735
02:52:07,040 --> 02:52:10,440
Speaker 1: But what it does sort of show is that that history,

2736
02:52:10,720 --> 02:52:15,400
Speaker 1: that period um in Yugoslav history is really complicated because

2737
02:52:15,840 --> 02:52:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, you had the Gusta sia Um and then

2738
02:52:18,800 --> 02:52:21,720
Speaker 1: you had the Chechniques and then there's a period where

2739
02:52:21,720 --> 02:52:24,880
Speaker 1: the Chechniks were against Ustasia, right because like used to

2740
02:52:24,920 --> 02:52:27,720
Speaker 1: show we're killing Serbs and Romans and Jews. But then

2741
02:52:27,760 --> 02:52:31,119
Speaker 1: the Chechniques turned around and there you know, these Serb nationalists,

2742
02:52:31,360 --> 02:52:34,400
Speaker 1: they start killing the Jews and the Roma, and then

2743
02:52:34,400 --> 02:52:36,520
Speaker 1: they start working with the USA to hand down the

2744
02:52:36,600 --> 02:52:38,480
Speaker 1: Jews in the Roma, and then they start working with

2745
02:52:38,560 --> 02:52:45,120
Speaker 1: them to stand against the you know, the Tito's Partisans. Um. Meanwhile,

2746
02:52:45,200 --> 02:52:51,440
Speaker 1: you know Tito's Partisans had a multi ethnic coalition, like

2747
02:52:51,520 --> 02:52:58,879
Speaker 1: and we're talking about Serbs, Bosnians, Roma, Jews, Croats, Albanians,

2748
02:52:58,879 --> 02:53:03,119
Speaker 1: you know, all sorts of people who were very like,

2749
02:53:03,560 --> 02:53:07,800
Speaker 1: you know, anti Nazism. So you know, we're we're gonna

2750
02:53:08,200 --> 02:53:11,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna win, We're gonna rebuild our country, We're gonna

2751
02:53:11,720 --> 02:53:15,480
Speaker 1: you know, make this beautiful sort of you know, multi

2752
02:53:15,560 --> 02:53:18,280
Speaker 1: ethnic kind of state, which they did, which is amazing.

2753
02:53:18,600 --> 02:53:21,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, but it is a complicated sort of piece

2754
02:53:21,000 --> 02:53:23,000
Speaker 1: of history. So you can't really say, oh, yes, they're

2755
02:53:23,120 --> 02:53:27,120
Speaker 1: the Nazi collaborationists because um, at some point or not,

2756
02:53:27,320 --> 02:53:32,240
Speaker 1: everybody was, and at some point or not everybody was. Also. Yeah,

2757
02:53:32,280 --> 02:53:34,080
Speaker 1: it's like like it's when when when you when you

2758
02:53:34,080 --> 02:53:39,160
Speaker 1: start getting into like it becomes this like you know,

2759
02:53:39,520 --> 02:53:44,360
Speaker 1: it becomes a way of just getting people to I

2760
02:53:44,360 --> 02:53:47,160
Speaker 1: don't know how to describe it, like you know, when

2761
02:53:47,160 --> 02:53:54,720
Speaker 1: when when it starts being like this specific ethnic group

2762
02:53:54,800 --> 02:53:58,240
Speaker 1: as a whole is responsible for all of these crimes.

2763
02:53:58,240 --> 02:54:01,120
Speaker 1: Just like no, they're not like that's that's not that's

2764
02:54:01,120 --> 02:54:03,840
Speaker 1: not how this works. Like it's not like like like

2765
02:54:03,879 --> 02:54:05,920
Speaker 1: they're like there are like there, yeah, there there's gonna

2766
02:54:05,959 --> 02:54:07,520
Speaker 1: be people in the ethnic group who did things that

2767
02:54:07,560 --> 02:54:10,320
Speaker 1: were awful. There's also going to be people, especially especially

2768
02:54:10,400 --> 02:54:12,440
Speaker 1: in insuffiction like this, there's there's a lot like a

2769
02:54:12,440 --> 02:54:17,480
Speaker 1: lot of probably more people who fought them. Yeah, like yeah,

2770
02:54:17,680 --> 02:54:20,720
Speaker 1: that's such an interesting statement because I'm going to compare

2771
02:54:20,879 --> 02:54:23,640
Speaker 1: to the bossing and response after the genocide, which has

2772
02:54:23,640 --> 02:54:28,720
Speaker 1: consistently been no, we don't believe that every single service bad,

2773
02:54:29,520 --> 02:54:31,959
Speaker 1: and we are only talking about those that took place,

2774
02:54:32,160 --> 02:54:36,080
Speaker 1: took part in these crimes, and those that concealed them.

2775
02:54:36,160 --> 02:54:40,160
Speaker 1: And that has always been the collective and state level

2776
02:54:40,240 --> 02:54:44,040
Speaker 1: response of all Bosans. Now you have to think about

2777
02:54:44,600 --> 02:54:51,280
Speaker 1: I have a friend who's who, who's nine members of

2778
02:54:51,280 --> 02:54:58,320
Speaker 1: her family were killed in Stubberty in July. That's an

2779
02:54:58,360 --> 02:55:03,320
Speaker 1: absorbent number of people. These were women, children, and men

2780
02:55:03,480 --> 02:55:07,520
Speaker 1: and elderly. There was no discrimination when it kim comes

2781
02:55:07,560 --> 02:55:11,320
Speaker 1: to her. I've sat with her as she's read all

2782
02:55:11,360 --> 02:55:15,279
Speaker 1: the names of her you know, killed family members. That woman,

2783
02:55:15,440 --> 02:55:17,920
Speaker 1: with all the pain that she survived with being there

2784
02:55:17,959 --> 02:55:21,120
Speaker 1: as a young girl in the midst of genocide, in

2785
02:55:21,160 --> 02:55:25,359
Speaker 1: the midst of these her horrifying crimes, has never once

2786
02:55:25,959 --> 02:55:28,960
Speaker 1: publicly or privately to me said, yes, old Serbs are

2787
02:55:29,000 --> 02:55:31,119
Speaker 1: the same, Yes all of them are war criminals, Yes

2788
02:55:31,200 --> 02:55:34,240
Speaker 1: all of them hate us, absolutely not. And the thing

2789
02:55:34,320 --> 02:55:37,760
Speaker 1: is I think about myself as well, Like you know,

2790
02:55:37,840 --> 02:55:41,800
Speaker 1: my earliest childhood memories me being shot at by a sniper,

2791
02:55:42,160 --> 02:55:45,760
Speaker 1: knowing my father was in a concentration camp, knowing that

2792
02:55:45,879 --> 02:55:49,360
Speaker 1: my grandmother was just killed by a bomb. Um knowing that,

2793
02:55:49,400 --> 02:55:52,560
Speaker 1: you know, my biological dad was dying in a hospital

2794
02:55:52,640 --> 02:55:55,440
Speaker 1: from an attack, and my mother could also be killed

2795
02:55:55,520 --> 02:55:57,400
Speaker 1: because she was pregnant with my brother at the time.

2796
02:55:57,400 --> 02:56:01,160
Speaker 1: And so these are my earliest childhood memories. Um, they're

2797
02:56:01,200 --> 02:56:05,880
Speaker 1: not very happy memories. And I know why those things happened,

2798
02:56:06,040 --> 02:56:07,879
Speaker 1: you know, I know why I was being shot at

2799
02:56:07,920 --> 02:56:09,920
Speaker 1: by a sniper, and it was because I was Bosnian.

2800
02:56:10,000 --> 02:56:12,560
Speaker 1: It it was because I was Muslin, and because I

2801
02:56:12,600 --> 02:56:14,800
Speaker 1: was seen as the enemy, even though I was you know,

2802
02:56:15,160 --> 02:56:18,440
Speaker 1: a little kid at you know, six seven years old, um,

2803
02:56:18,480 --> 02:56:20,920
Speaker 1: and absolutely not a threat to anyone, and nobody should

2804
02:56:20,920 --> 02:56:24,280
Speaker 1: have been shooting at me. They did. Anyway, even though

2805
02:56:24,320 --> 02:56:28,880
Speaker 1: that happened, I never had that feeling of all serbs

2806
02:56:28,879 --> 02:56:30,960
Speaker 1: are awful. All serbs are you know, I'm going to

2807
02:56:31,040 --> 02:56:34,720
Speaker 1: paint them all with a brush. But a lot of them, unfortunately,

2808
02:56:34,879 --> 02:56:38,720
Speaker 1: especially on the you know, the the ultra nationalists that

2809
02:56:38,800 --> 02:56:41,840
Speaker 1: continue to not just the night the genis nipe, but

2810
02:56:41,920 --> 02:56:46,920
Speaker 1: also glorifyed and celebrate it. They do paint everyone with

2811
02:56:47,000 --> 02:56:50,320
Speaker 1: the same brush, you know, And and the worst thing

2812
02:56:50,440 --> 02:56:52,959
Speaker 1: The funniest thing is that they paint themselves with the

2813
02:56:53,000 --> 02:56:55,680
Speaker 1: same brush, you know. They they think that they get

2814
02:56:55,680 --> 02:56:59,840
Speaker 1: to speak for every single serve person um, and that's

2815
02:57:00,160 --> 02:57:04,400
Speaker 1: the tragic path. Like I'm not, I'm not. I get

2816
02:57:04,400 --> 02:57:07,040
Speaker 1: accused of like constantly talking about serbs, and I'm like,

2817
02:57:07,760 --> 02:57:10,640
Speaker 1: I absolutely am not. I'm talking about the nationalists that

2818
02:57:10,720 --> 02:57:13,480
Speaker 1: I will call out all the nationalists, whether they're CAUSI

2819
02:57:13,520 --> 02:57:18,920
Speaker 1: in serpient Croation, American whatever, but we're talking about you

2820
02:57:18,959 --> 02:57:22,280
Speaker 1: know what you're doing to me and your response to

2821
02:57:22,320 --> 02:57:26,200
Speaker 1: my criticism of nationalism is actually the thing that's ruining

2822
02:57:26,240 --> 02:57:29,039
Speaker 1: your reputation. Yeah, it's it's the it's it's de'th the

2823
02:57:29,120 --> 02:57:31,120
Speaker 1: nationals camp it it's it's you have you have to

2824
02:57:31,160 --> 02:57:34,000
Speaker 1: conflate all of the individual people, the ethnic group, and

2825
02:57:34,040 --> 02:57:35,400
Speaker 1: the state. They all they all have to be this like,

2826
02:57:35,400 --> 02:57:37,560
Speaker 1: you know, this must be this organic totality and it's

2827
02:57:37,560 --> 02:57:39,879
Speaker 1: not true. It's just not. But that's you know, that's

2828
02:57:39,920 --> 02:57:42,960
Speaker 1: that's that's the sort of it's it's the motus apperanda

2829
02:57:43,040 --> 02:57:47,080
Speaker 1: behind their entire ideology, and it's what they deploy, you know,

2830
02:57:47,160 --> 02:57:49,360
Speaker 1: it's what they deploy when the genocides, is what they

2831
02:57:49,360 --> 02:57:52,240
Speaker 1: deploy when they have to sort of like you know,

2832
02:57:54,000 --> 02:57:59,080
Speaker 1: sort of promoted openly or less openly afterwards. Yeah, it's

2833
02:57:59,120 --> 02:58:02,840
Speaker 1: like that justific it's how they justify it, I know.

2834
02:58:03,640 --> 02:58:07,760
Speaker 1: And like we all know about the ten stages of genocide,

2835
02:58:08,600 --> 02:58:16,800
Speaker 1: but my colleague Um, who's brilliant actually has often talked

2836
02:58:16,800 --> 02:58:22,520
Speaker 1: about that the nihilism is not really the final stage

2837
02:58:22,840 --> 02:58:28,680
Speaker 1: of genocide. It is in fact triumphalism, Um. And that's

2838
02:58:28,680 --> 02:58:30,920
Speaker 1: what we're actually seeing in Bosnia. You know, we're not

2839
02:58:32,240 --> 02:58:36,760
Speaker 1: I get genocide denialism from American leftists and like British

2840
02:58:36,840 --> 02:58:40,160
Speaker 1: leftists who are on a certain spectrum and obvious certain

2841
02:58:41,680 --> 02:58:47,520
Speaker 1: I don't get genocide denialism from at No nationalists serves.

2842
02:58:47,760 --> 02:58:52,439
Speaker 1: What I get from them actually is very openly celebrating

2843
02:58:52,560 --> 02:58:56,440
Speaker 1: and threatening another genocide. They are not in my mentions

2844
02:58:56,840 --> 02:59:00,720
Speaker 1: saying oh there was no genocide. Uh, they're I mentioned

2845
02:59:00,760 --> 02:59:03,160
Speaker 1: saying no one shops a Steba and so, which is

2846
02:59:03,200 --> 02:59:07,240
Speaker 1: basically a slogan that says knife fire, serbonizza, and it's

2847
02:59:07,280 --> 02:59:11,480
Speaker 1: like basically a threat that another Sherebonia will occur. There.

2848
02:59:11,480 --> 02:59:13,880
Speaker 1: In my mentions, in my emails and in my d

2849
02:59:14,160 --> 02:59:17,400
Speaker 1: MS sending me threats about how they can't wait till

2850
02:59:17,440 --> 02:59:20,560
Speaker 1: I'm put in a rape camp again, How they can't

2851
02:59:20,560 --> 02:59:23,640
Speaker 1: wait untill they kill my family, until sorry ever gets

2852
02:59:23,640 --> 02:59:26,760
Speaker 1: bombed again, and how you know we're they're gonna finish

2853
02:59:26,800 --> 02:59:30,160
Speaker 1: the job. How Ram is a hero because he killed

2854
02:59:30,280 --> 02:59:34,960
Speaker 1: all those you know, people in Serbonizza and sorry, um

2855
02:59:35,120 --> 02:59:37,520
Speaker 1: Kada Ditch is a hero because he's the same Alosha,

2856
02:59:37,560 --> 02:59:40,440
Speaker 1: which is a hero because he believes in a greater servia.

2857
02:59:41,000 --> 02:59:45,280
Speaker 1: These people don't hide it, um, And that's the thing.

2858
02:59:45,400 --> 02:59:49,360
Speaker 1: So it's it's very like just today, you know, the

2859
02:59:49,520 --> 02:59:51,879
Speaker 1: first thing in the morning, I opened my Twitter and

2860
02:59:51,959 --> 02:59:56,240
Speaker 1: the first thing that I see is a Bosnian activist

2861
02:59:56,879 --> 03:00:00,840
Speaker 1: arrested for protesting the dot com Laach mural, which the

2862
03:00:00,840 --> 03:00:08,680
Speaker 1: Serbian police were guarding. They were guarding a mural get like,

2863
03:00:08,720 --> 03:00:12,680
Speaker 1: a mural of a war criminal who committed genocide, who

2864
03:00:12,840 --> 03:00:18,120
Speaker 1: who everybody knows committed genocide, a mural glorifying him. They

2865
03:00:18,200 --> 03:00:22,000
Speaker 1: were got the police were guarding you know, the mural

2866
03:00:22,560 --> 03:00:26,760
Speaker 1: and inflicting damage on innocent civilians who were there too,

2867
03:00:27,160 --> 03:00:29,560
Speaker 1: you know, protest against the mural. And so I think

2868
03:00:29,600 --> 03:00:34,560
Speaker 1: that really tells you so much the issue in the Balkans.

2869
03:00:35,560 --> 03:00:38,160
Speaker 1: This has When it Could Happen Here? Join us tomorrow

2870
03:00:38,240 --> 03:00:40,920
Speaker 1: for part two of this interview, which we discuss the

2871
03:00:41,000 --> 03:00:44,279
Speaker 1: dangers of what's currently happening in Bosnia. In the meantime,

2872
03:00:44,879 --> 03:00:48,400
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter It Happened Here pod, and you

2873
03:00:48,440 --> 03:00:51,480
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter and Instagram for the rest

2874
03:00:51,480 --> 03:01:07,800
Speaker 1: of our shows at cool Zone Media. What Could It

2875
03:01:07,840 --> 03:01:11,920
Speaker 1: Could Happen Here a podcast about bad things happening and

2876
03:01:11,959 --> 03:01:15,640
Speaker 1: how they can continue to happen if you don't stop them.

2877
03:01:15,680 --> 03:01:19,080
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and today we're doing part

2878
03:01:19,120 --> 03:01:22,840
Speaker 1: two of the interview with genocide expert Arness Acustra, focusing

2879
03:01:22,879 --> 03:01:25,360
Speaker 1: on the absolutely horrifying things that have been happening in

2880
03:01:25,400 --> 03:01:27,600
Speaker 1: Bosnia recently. Is you and if you hope you enjoy?

2881
03:01:28,200 --> 03:01:30,039
Speaker 1: Can you can you give an explanation of what's happened

2882
03:01:30,040 --> 03:01:35,320
Speaker 1: in the last couple of weeks because it's terrifying and

2883
03:01:35,440 --> 03:01:38,279
Speaker 1: I don't think enough people are talking about it. Yeah,

2884
03:01:38,480 --> 03:01:43,119
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, So that's where are we now? Uh,

2885
03:01:43,360 --> 03:01:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just going to talk briefly about the

2886
03:01:46,200 --> 03:01:49,000
Speaker 1: date and agreement because I think, yeah, yeah, the audience

2887
03:01:49,000 --> 03:01:51,440
Speaker 1: speeds to understand what the dating agreement is and I

2888
03:01:51,520 --> 03:01:53,080
Speaker 1: was going to talk about it earlier, but I went

2889
03:01:53,120 --> 03:01:57,880
Speaker 1: off on a tangent, So my apologies. UM. So obviously

2890
03:01:58,200 --> 03:02:00,959
Speaker 1: you know where the war is, how opening the genocide

2891
03:02:01,000 --> 03:02:06,720
Speaker 1: is happening. UM stburns. The worst of the genocide happens.

2892
03:02:06,800 --> 03:02:10,000
Speaker 1: You know, eight thousand people are killed in just a

2893
03:02:10,040 --> 03:02:14,720
Speaker 1: matter of a few weeks, few days really, Um. The

2894
03:02:14,800 --> 03:02:19,800
Speaker 1: international community does not act at that time. UM. Towards

2895
03:02:19,840 --> 03:02:23,360
Speaker 1: the end of the year, another attack happens, since Saraevo

2896
03:02:23,400 --> 03:02:27,920
Speaker 1: and Marcalis, civilians are once again targeted waiting for bread fruit.

2897
03:02:28,160 --> 03:02:32,119
Speaker 1: I think it was humanitarian aid at the market, and

2898
03:02:32,200 --> 03:02:35,240
Speaker 1: that that's kind of when the international community starts to

2899
03:02:36,400 --> 03:02:40,680
Speaker 1: open their eyes a bit and negotiations start and not

2900
03:02:40,840 --> 03:02:43,280
Speaker 1: to borry with the details and no. Geotiation process was

2901
03:02:43,320 --> 03:02:47,520
Speaker 1: absolutely ridiculous, and every single time to discussed it, it

2902
03:02:47,600 --> 03:02:51,760
Speaker 1: was about splitting Bosnia down ethnic lines. And that's ultimately

2903
03:02:51,800 --> 03:02:57,359
Speaker 1: what happened with the Dating Agreement. Yes, peace, quote unquote

2904
03:02:57,680 --> 03:03:03,040
Speaker 1: peace was achieved, but the Dayton Agreement mandated so that

2905
03:03:04,680 --> 03:03:08,640
Speaker 1: there would be a three member presidency. So instead of

2906
03:03:08,680 --> 03:03:11,080
Speaker 1: having one president, we would have a three member presidency.

2907
03:03:11,160 --> 03:03:15,520
Speaker 1: It's a rotating presidency. There would be a Curat representative,

2908
03:03:15,800 --> 03:03:20,520
Speaker 1: a Bosnia representative, and a Server representative. That also means

2909
03:03:20,560 --> 03:03:23,959
Speaker 1: that there's no representatives for anyone who's another, whether it's

2910
03:03:23,959 --> 03:03:29,879
Speaker 1: the identified Yugoslav, Roma, Jewish, Bosnian but not Boshnak like

2911
03:03:29,959 --> 03:03:33,600
Speaker 1: they you know, it's just there's no space for the

2912
03:03:33,600 --> 03:03:37,000
Speaker 1: other in this constitution with the state in peace agreement.

2913
03:03:37,040 --> 03:03:40,440
Speaker 1: But that's for another day. Um. They also split the

2914
03:03:40,480 --> 03:03:43,960
Speaker 1: country down by ethnic lines. So all of those genocides

2915
03:03:44,000 --> 03:03:47,160
Speaker 1: and ethnic cleansing that the Serbs had just been committing

2916
03:03:47,560 --> 03:03:52,160
Speaker 1: all over eastern Bosnia up in the north, um, you know,

2917
03:03:52,520 --> 03:03:57,400
Speaker 1: basically the international community said, good job, here's your own

2918
03:03:57,480 --> 03:04:01,640
Speaker 1: territory that you ethnically cleanse. UM. So they split the

2919
03:04:01,680 --> 03:04:06,400
Speaker 1: country down, you know, these ethnic lines, and uh, you know,

2920
03:04:06,440 --> 03:04:08,440
Speaker 1: the warst stops. And then now we have to sort

2921
03:04:08,480 --> 03:04:10,920
Speaker 1: of contend with this you know, peace agreement. With the

2922
03:04:10,959 --> 03:04:16,960
Speaker 1: new constitution. We we get this UM called the OHR

2923
03:04:17,680 --> 03:04:20,880
Speaker 1: Office of the High Representative. The High Representative is basically

2924
03:04:21,440 --> 03:04:24,879
Speaker 1: a person who holds the highest power in the country.

2925
03:04:25,360 --> 03:04:29,640
Speaker 1: They're not a Bosnian, they're actually kind of um, they're

2926
03:04:29,680 --> 03:04:35,280
Speaker 1: put in place there by the international community. So the

2927
03:04:35,360 --> 03:04:38,400
Speaker 1: o HR kind of you know comes then breaks us

2928
03:04:38,480 --> 03:04:41,920
Speaker 1: up when we're squabbling over issues, and this has been

2929
03:04:42,000 --> 03:04:47,160
Speaker 1: anything from things like the flag, like the new flag

2930
03:04:47,200 --> 03:04:50,840
Speaker 1: of Bosnia. The flag of Bosnia that was the flag

2931
03:04:50,879 --> 03:04:53,080
Speaker 1: of Bosnia had to sort of be a place because

2932
03:04:53,600 --> 03:04:56,439
Speaker 1: the OHR deems that it would be you know, offensive

2933
03:04:56,520 --> 03:04:59,720
Speaker 1: to the Serbs or the Croats um and the same

2934
03:04:59,760 --> 03:05:03,119
Speaker 1: thing like the national anthem. So they hold a lot

2935
03:05:03,120 --> 03:05:10,720
Speaker 1: of power. Now just recently we switched a HR representatives,

2936
03:05:10,720 --> 03:05:13,520
Speaker 1: so we have a new High representative. Before it was

2937
03:05:13,560 --> 03:05:18,400
Speaker 1: Valentinianscope and his final kind of part of his you know,

2938
03:05:18,959 --> 03:05:23,760
Speaker 1: time as the High Representative was to enact a law

2939
03:05:23,920 --> 03:05:29,080
Speaker 1: against genocide denialism, which the Bosnians have really been campaigning

2940
03:05:29,120 --> 03:05:32,520
Speaker 1: for for years because you know, um, I think in

2941
03:05:32,879 --> 03:05:35,879
Speaker 1: your birthplace, in the place where the worst crime ever

2942
03:05:35,959 --> 03:05:38,600
Speaker 1: could you know, happen to you, happen to you, where

2943
03:05:39,320 --> 03:05:42,320
Speaker 1: you know, fifty women were raped, a hundred thousand people

2944
03:05:42,320 --> 03:05:46,960
Speaker 1: were killed, um, six hundred plus mass graves were you know,

2945
03:05:47,240 --> 03:05:51,800
Speaker 1: dug up to hide the crimes and the massacres. People

2946
03:05:51,920 --> 03:05:57,840
Speaker 1: want to be able to you know, know the truth

2947
03:05:57,959 --> 03:06:00,720
Speaker 1: and and and and be feel safe with the truth.

2948
03:06:00,760 --> 03:06:04,000
Speaker 1: So the genocide denialism law was good but this is

2949
03:06:04,120 --> 03:06:07,560
Speaker 1: kind of when things started to you know, shift a bit,

2950
03:06:07,720 --> 03:06:11,520
Speaker 1: because I think Dotta came out Melante, who is currently

2951
03:06:11,600 --> 03:06:15,800
Speaker 1: the Serb member of the Presidency who controls the Bublical Subsco,

2952
03:06:15,959 --> 03:06:19,840
Speaker 1: which is the entity where that's considered the Serb entity,

2953
03:06:20,120 --> 03:06:24,080
Speaker 1: but Bosniacs also lived there as well. Um, he came

2954
03:06:24,080 --> 03:06:26,240
Speaker 1: out and he said, well, if they passed the genocide

2955
03:06:26,240 --> 03:06:30,520
Speaker 1: denialism law, we're going to succeed within eight days. And

2956
03:06:30,560 --> 03:06:35,600
Speaker 1: obviously that didn't happen months ago. And here's here's the thing, um,

2957
03:06:35,760 --> 03:06:39,600
Speaker 1: milanids Doteck has been threatening succession for years now. This

2958
03:06:39,680 --> 03:06:45,640
Speaker 1: is not anything new. What is new is the fact

2959
03:06:45,920 --> 03:06:51,760
Speaker 1: that this time he seems to talk about not just

2960
03:06:51,840 --> 03:06:55,480
Speaker 1: talk and threaten about succeeding, but actually has started to

2961
03:06:55,560 --> 03:06:59,640
Speaker 1: kind of drop up the papers and not a not

2962
03:06:59,760 --> 03:07:03,400
Speaker 1: to legally succede, which he's not allowed due to the

2963
03:07:03,400 --> 03:07:06,960
Speaker 1: state and agreement. Um, but he is. He has run

2964
03:07:07,080 --> 03:07:08,959
Speaker 1: up the papers to start pulling out of all the

2965
03:07:09,160 --> 03:07:14,120
Speaker 1: national level. So you know, Bosnia is the country republican

2966
03:07:14,160 --> 03:07:18,280
Speaker 1: subscrise and entity. The Federation is an entity, but both

2967
03:07:18,280 --> 03:07:20,720
Speaker 1: of them are accountable to the national sort of state

2968
03:07:20,800 --> 03:07:24,920
Speaker 1: level institutions. He's basically at this point, you know, been

2969
03:07:25,000 --> 03:07:28,800
Speaker 1: saying I'm gonna Republica subscribe deserve. We're leaving, like we're

2970
03:07:29,200 --> 03:07:33,320
Speaker 1: we're gonna form our own army. Yeah, we're gonna pull

2971
03:07:33,360 --> 03:07:38,080
Speaker 1: out all all the Bosnian state institutions. Um, we're gonna

2972
03:07:38,160 --> 03:07:42,560
Speaker 1: have serve only, you know, serve only, courts, serve only, lawyers,

2973
03:07:42,560 --> 03:07:47,800
Speaker 1: serve only, justices, serve only, I don't know, passport whatever,

2974
03:07:48,040 --> 03:07:52,920
Speaker 1: control serve basically anything that was at a national level,

2975
03:07:52,959 --> 03:07:56,000
Speaker 1: whether that's like a healthcare institution or like I don't know,

2976
03:07:56,120 --> 03:08:01,240
Speaker 1: procurement for supplies for the office. They're gonna have it

2977
03:08:01,400 --> 03:08:05,720
Speaker 1: as like serve only. Obviously, I think the danger is

2978
03:08:06,120 --> 03:08:08,680
Speaker 1: right there, serve only. Where have we heard that before?

2979
03:08:08,720 --> 03:08:11,760
Speaker 1: We heard that nineties And the biggest sort of red

2980
03:08:11,800 --> 03:08:15,520
Speaker 1: flag has really been this thing about them forming that

2981
03:08:15,640 --> 03:08:19,080
Speaker 1: a public Scott army, and they're not even talking about

2982
03:08:19,160 --> 03:08:23,000
Speaker 1: forming a new army. They he specifically stated the words

2983
03:08:23,200 --> 03:08:28,240
Speaker 1: reforming that republica Scott Army. Now, the Republican of Scott Army,

2984
03:08:28,480 --> 03:08:32,520
Speaker 1: you know, was led by Kota In. These are the

2985
03:08:32,600 --> 03:08:36,520
Speaker 1: same people that put girls as young as ten and

2986
03:08:36,520 --> 03:08:40,800
Speaker 1: twelve years old into rape camps, that killed babies as

2987
03:08:40,840 --> 03:08:44,560
Speaker 1: old as you know a few months that killed um

2988
03:08:44,600 --> 03:08:48,240
Speaker 1: you know, elderly women as old as a hundred years old.

2989
03:08:48,600 --> 03:08:52,000
Speaker 1: You know, these these were the guys that were going

2990
03:08:52,120 --> 03:08:56,560
Speaker 1: village to village, city to city, killing, torturing, bombing the

2991
03:08:56,640 --> 03:08:58,800
Speaker 1: hell out of Sorry al. These were the guys that

2992
03:08:59,440 --> 03:09:03,400
Speaker 1: you know, would throw like three thousand to four thousand

2993
03:09:03,840 --> 03:09:08,720
Speaker 1: mortar shells on sorrymo and snip it. I don't even

2994
03:09:08,720 --> 03:09:11,520
Speaker 1: know how many times, like tens of thousand times per day.

2995
03:09:11,720 --> 03:09:15,640
Speaker 1: It's just these are the bad guys basically. Um So,

2996
03:09:15,680 --> 03:09:19,640
Speaker 1: I think there is an alarm right now going in Bosnia,

2997
03:09:19,680 --> 03:09:21,760
Speaker 1: and it is the reason why so many of us

2998
03:09:21,800 --> 03:09:26,280
Speaker 1: are quite worried, quite frightened, because on one hand, he

2999
03:09:26,400 --> 03:09:28,760
Speaker 1: has threatened, he has made you know, Donic has made

3000
03:09:28,760 --> 03:09:34,040
Speaker 1: plenty of for us before. But on the other hand,

3001
03:09:34,320 --> 03:09:39,320
Speaker 1: in prior times, the international community has somewhat gotten involved.

3002
03:09:39,480 --> 03:09:43,039
Speaker 1: You know, the US has sanctioned him, the UK has

3003
03:09:43,080 --> 03:09:46,280
Speaker 1: scolded him, the EU has said, like, you gotta chill out,

3004
03:09:46,280 --> 03:09:50,160
Speaker 1: otherwise you know, Sorbia doesn't get into the EU. You know,

3005
03:09:50,200 --> 03:09:53,959
Speaker 1: there's there's always been some sort of I don't know,

3006
03:09:54,120 --> 03:09:57,440
Speaker 1: influence there, the o h r's influence as well, But

3007
03:09:58,160 --> 03:10:04,519
Speaker 1: in recent years, the international community has not stood by

3008
03:10:04,680 --> 03:10:09,039
Speaker 1: its responsibility to the Date and Agreement. I mean, here's

3009
03:10:09,040 --> 03:10:13,920
Speaker 1: the thing. They implemented this agreement. They made it so

3010
03:10:14,000 --> 03:10:18,600
Speaker 1: that we the Bosnians, have to abide by it, but

3011
03:10:18,720 --> 03:10:21,320
Speaker 1: they also have a responsibility to ensure that it is

3012
03:10:21,360 --> 03:10:24,959
Speaker 1: actually being upheld and that they're doing their job in

3013
03:10:25,040 --> 03:10:28,200
Speaker 1: importance with the international like with the Dating Agreement, so

3014
03:10:28,800 --> 03:10:30,640
Speaker 1: you know, the Date and Agreement was very kind of

3015
03:10:30,640 --> 03:10:35,160
Speaker 1: specific that it was one a temporary solution and to

3016
03:10:35,360 --> 03:10:39,160
Speaker 1: the international community was to work on finding a more

3017
03:10:39,680 --> 03:10:44,160
Speaker 1: permanent solution that will bring about you know, actual sort

3018
03:10:44,160 --> 03:10:46,920
Speaker 1: of reconciliation and justice and all of these things. But

3019
03:10:46,959 --> 03:10:49,200
Speaker 1: they didn't. They you know, they've left sort of bousing

3020
03:10:49,240 --> 03:10:51,960
Speaker 1: it to kind of uh live up on its own.

3021
03:10:52,280 --> 03:10:56,000
Speaker 1: Um and and now they're not really doing much. I mean,

3022
03:10:56,280 --> 03:10:59,720
Speaker 1: the EU, the US, they're doing their typical thing of

3023
03:11:00,040 --> 03:11:05,879
Speaker 1: only worded open letters UM and Dottic seems less afraid

3024
03:11:05,959 --> 03:11:08,959
Speaker 1: than ever before. He seems very brash. I mean, he

3025
03:11:09,080 --> 03:11:11,960
Speaker 1: is a fool and a half and an ultra nationalists,

3026
03:11:12,000 --> 03:11:14,360
Speaker 1: but right now I feel like he has so much

3027
03:11:14,440 --> 03:11:17,120
Speaker 1: confidence and I think he also knows that like the

3028
03:11:17,240 --> 03:11:20,080
Speaker 1: US and the EU have so many bigger problems to

3029
03:11:20,120 --> 03:11:24,520
Speaker 1: worry about rather than Bosnia, and so we're just out

3030
03:11:24,520 --> 03:11:27,920
Speaker 1: a priority so he can play around with it. And

3031
03:11:27,959 --> 03:11:30,520
Speaker 1: then we're also, you know, seeing like the Secretary of

3032
03:11:30,560 --> 03:11:36,279
Speaker 1: State Matthew Palmer hanging out with him. The day after

3033
03:11:36,400 --> 03:11:39,400
Speaker 1: this man openly stated on national television that he is

3034
03:11:39,440 --> 03:11:44,240
Speaker 1: reforming and they're being very cozy and very friendly and

3035
03:11:44,280 --> 03:11:46,920
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And here's the thing. I've never been

3036
03:11:47,000 --> 03:11:51,560
Speaker 1: really a big believer on the international community, because come on,

3037
03:11:51,760 --> 03:11:55,560
Speaker 1: like I have him, the experience speaks for itself. I've

3038
03:11:55,640 --> 03:12:01,959
Speaker 1: already lived lived their help and I'm like, no, thanks,

3039
03:12:02,400 --> 03:12:06,320
Speaker 1: please stay away. But I don't live in that world.

3040
03:12:06,440 --> 03:12:08,280
Speaker 1: I live in a world where, you know, I'm from

3041
03:12:08,280 --> 03:12:13,120
Speaker 1: a small country that is unfortunately very dependent on outsiders

3042
03:12:13,240 --> 03:12:17,120
Speaker 1: and on the international community. So while I would love

3043
03:12:17,160 --> 03:12:19,959
Speaker 1: to say, well, fuck the EU, fuck the US, we

3044
03:12:20,040 --> 03:12:22,800
Speaker 1: don't need them, the reality is that we do need them.

3045
03:12:22,840 --> 03:12:26,400
Speaker 1: We do need them to do their jobs. And because

3046
03:12:26,480 --> 03:12:29,759
Speaker 1: if they don't, I am really worried that the situation

3047
03:12:29,959 --> 03:12:34,680
Speaker 1: is going to continue to escalate further and further. And

3048
03:12:35,560 --> 03:12:39,840
Speaker 1: this appeasement of Dotty, especially in the last several years,

3049
03:12:40,320 --> 03:12:44,600
Speaker 1: has gone on so much that at this point, I

3050
03:12:44,640 --> 03:12:47,959
Speaker 1: think you have to like start to wonder like do

3051
03:12:48,080 --> 03:12:52,000
Speaker 1: these does the international community you know, even want peace

3052
03:12:52,040 --> 03:12:55,360
Speaker 1: in stability in Bosnia or did they benefit from our

3053
03:12:55,400 --> 03:12:59,160
Speaker 1: constant instability and what is their long term plan? But

3054
03:12:59,240 --> 03:13:01,200
Speaker 1: that's kind of where are at right now. I think

3055
03:13:01,240 --> 03:13:05,920
Speaker 1: there there's you know, there's the people in in Bosnian

3056
03:13:06,040 --> 03:13:09,120
Speaker 1: politics and activist circles right now who are calling on

3057
03:13:09,400 --> 03:13:12,640
Speaker 1: US leadership or calling on EU leadership, and there's a

3058
03:13:12,680 --> 03:13:15,080
Speaker 1: lot of oh, no, the EU sucks, the US will

3059
03:13:15,080 --> 03:13:17,280
Speaker 1: help us, the U s sucks, the EU will help us.

3060
03:13:17,320 --> 03:13:20,000
Speaker 1: Turkey that's gonna help us. No, Turkey sucks. There's a

3061
03:13:20,000 --> 03:13:23,120
Speaker 1: lot of like disagreement. Um. I think the reality is that,

3062
03:13:23,200 --> 03:13:25,560
Speaker 1: oh my god, does it suck that we are in

3063
03:13:25,600 --> 03:13:29,560
Speaker 1: this position where we have to rely on external sources

3064
03:13:29,640 --> 03:13:33,600
Speaker 1: because once again we are feeling alone. Once again, we're

3065
03:13:33,640 --> 03:13:36,280
Speaker 1: sort of being back into a corner and once again

3066
03:13:36,320 --> 03:13:40,200
Speaker 1: we're being threatened with a prospect of, you know, a

3067
03:13:40,240 --> 03:13:43,160
Speaker 1: new war. And I think the reality is the minute,

3068
03:13:43,680 --> 03:13:47,040
Speaker 1: the minute that he gives that green light for that

3069
03:13:47,520 --> 03:13:51,320
Speaker 1: the Republicans of Scott Army to be formed, there will

3070
03:13:51,360 --> 03:13:56,880
Speaker 1: be violence. We've seen what happened before. We cannot afford

3071
03:13:57,040 --> 03:14:00,680
Speaker 1: to even have one act of violence. We cannot board

3072
03:14:00,720 --> 03:14:04,360
Speaker 1: to have even one person injured, let alone die. Because

3073
03:14:05,080 --> 03:14:09,280
Speaker 1: these people in Bosnia, on all sides, have suffered so

3074
03:14:09,400 --> 03:14:13,560
Speaker 1: unbelievably much. They are exhausted, They are still bearing their

3075
03:14:13,640 --> 03:14:17,040
Speaker 1: loved once twenty six years later, they still haven't you know,

3076
03:14:17,120 --> 03:14:20,320
Speaker 1: found that peace. They're worried and scared for their future,

3077
03:14:20,840 --> 03:14:24,160
Speaker 1: and they deserves so much more, they really really do.

3078
03:14:24,320 --> 03:14:30,400
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, I'm I'm hoping and praying that. Um.

3079
03:14:30,440 --> 03:14:33,440
Speaker 1: You know, we obviously continue talking about this issue, and

3080
03:14:33,680 --> 03:14:37,039
Speaker 1: we try to pressure those people in power to you know,

3081
03:14:37,120 --> 03:14:42,280
Speaker 1: calm the situation down. But the reality is that this

3082
03:14:42,600 --> 03:14:45,600
Speaker 1: is going to be our future for as long as

3083
03:14:45,680 --> 03:14:50,720
Speaker 1: they next exists, and until the Bosnian constitution is completely

3084
03:14:50,760 --> 03:14:55,360
Speaker 1: reformed and dating is completely either thrown out or reformed

3085
03:14:55,760 --> 03:15:00,240
Speaker 1: to actually allow for a you know code actually all

3086
03:15:00,680 --> 03:15:06,000
Speaker 1: multi ethnic United Country that's not broken up across ethnic

3087
03:15:06,200 --> 03:15:09,960
Speaker 1: you know aligns, and it's not ethnically segregated, We're going

3088
03:15:09,959 --> 03:15:13,440
Speaker 1: to continue being in the situation. So yes, for right now,

3089
03:15:13,480 --> 03:15:15,640
Speaker 1: I think let's talk about this and let's kind of

3090
03:15:15,640 --> 03:15:18,959
Speaker 1: pressure those powerful people, but really a long term. It's

3091
03:15:19,000 --> 03:15:21,640
Speaker 1: time to start thinking about ending the Date and Agreement,

3092
03:15:21,680 --> 03:15:25,680
Speaker 1: and it's time to start thinking about actually building that

3093
03:15:25,840 --> 03:15:31,000
Speaker 1: you know, multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi religious country that

3094
03:15:31,200 --> 03:15:34,400
Speaker 1: we fought for. You know, you're saying like okay, like

3095
03:15:34,400 --> 03:15:37,440
Speaker 1: what what what is you know, what what is Europe

3096
03:15:37,440 --> 03:15:41,280
Speaker 1: actually wants out of this? And you know, I mean

3097
03:15:41,280 --> 03:15:43,600
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear, like okay, so you know it.

3098
03:15:43,720 --> 03:15:45,760
Speaker 1: The Day and Accords are like okay, we're just gonna

3099
03:15:45,840 --> 03:15:49,280
Speaker 1: give all of the ether nationalists like their own fief them. Right,

3100
03:15:49,280 --> 03:15:51,200
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, here, here's your award for the genocide.

3101
03:15:51,200 --> 03:15:54,240
Speaker 1: You get your like yeah, and I think you know,

3102
03:15:54,280 --> 03:15:57,760
Speaker 1: like that's that's that's that's that's a very classical you

3103
03:15:57,760 --> 03:16:00,760
Speaker 1: know that that that's what Europeans do, Right. It's like, yeah,

3104
03:16:00,800 --> 03:16:02,680
Speaker 1: they come in the sport of the nationalists and it's like,

3105
03:16:02,800 --> 03:16:07,160
Speaker 1: you know, they don't want this, like they don't actually want,

3106
03:16:08,360 --> 03:16:14,520
Speaker 1: like if a functioning, multi ethnic, multiracial society because you know,

3107
03:16:14,640 --> 03:16:16,879
Speaker 1: oh oh the horror weight hold on what if other

3108
03:16:16,920 --> 03:16:19,600
Speaker 1: people look at that and go, wait, why why do

3109
03:16:19,680 --> 03:16:23,760
Speaker 1: we have Like yeah, I think that I don't know,

3110
03:16:24,200 --> 03:16:26,000
Speaker 1: I think you see this both you know, back back

3111
03:16:26,000 --> 03:16:28,039
Speaker 1: and what they were originally doing in the nineties, and

3112
03:16:28,240 --> 03:16:30,400
Speaker 1: you know, they come in later and they're like, oh, hey,

3113
03:16:30,440 --> 03:16:35,360
Speaker 1: look we're heroes. We uh helped them do the genocide

3114
03:16:35,400 --> 03:16:38,480
Speaker 1: and then kind of sort of did something maybe later,

3115
03:16:39,800 --> 03:16:42,360
Speaker 1: And I think, like, yeah, I don't know, just the

3116
03:16:42,360 --> 03:16:45,360
Speaker 1: possibility of that happening again, the possibility of it's just

3117
03:16:45,440 --> 03:16:48,320
Speaker 1: being you know, this is like, oh, hey, we have Bostia.

3118
03:16:48,400 --> 03:16:50,160
Speaker 1: This this is where we do press tours for like

3119
03:16:50,160 --> 03:16:53,000
Speaker 1: why the American Army is good and like fun, anyone

3120
03:16:53,040 --> 03:16:57,080
Speaker 1: else who actually lives there is just I mean, like,

3121
03:16:57,160 --> 03:17:00,600
Speaker 1: come on, d're America, Like, let's be honest, scare Like,

3122
03:17:00,640 --> 03:17:03,440
Speaker 1: I'm not saying they're all powerful entity, but what I

3123
03:17:03,480 --> 03:17:08,280
Speaker 1: am saying is that if they really wanted to the

3124
03:17:08,360 --> 03:17:11,080
Speaker 1: people who are in power would not be in power,

3125
03:17:11,400 --> 03:17:16,160
Speaker 1: right Like, but these people, people like dotty, people like

3126
03:17:16,240 --> 03:17:19,240
Speaker 1: Dragon Chovich, who is the Croatian at the nationalist leader

3127
03:17:19,280 --> 03:17:22,640
Speaker 1: who is also by the way, directly involved in this mess.

3128
03:17:22,720 --> 03:17:25,120
Speaker 1: And and once again we're seeing that thing of the

3129
03:17:25,240 --> 03:17:28,040
Speaker 1: nineties of you know, Croatia and Serbia want to split

3130
03:17:28,200 --> 03:17:32,480
Speaker 1: Bosnia up and you know, break it for themselves. Basically, Um,

3131
03:17:32,480 --> 03:17:35,360
Speaker 1: that's you know, it's it's just now instead of Ryan

3132
03:17:35,520 --> 03:17:40,440
Speaker 1: Tujman and Looshevich, it's now Chovich and uh, you know, Dotty.

3133
03:17:40,720 --> 03:17:42,600
Speaker 1: I talk about Dottic a lot more because I think

3134
03:17:42,600 --> 03:17:45,480
Speaker 1: he's a more immediate threat. But it's important that we

3135
03:17:45,600 --> 03:17:48,840
Speaker 1: don't forget that Bosnia is also facing the Croatian threat

3136
03:17:48,879 --> 03:17:52,360
Speaker 1: as well. Um And you know, but but I think

3137
03:17:52,400 --> 03:17:54,480
Speaker 1: about it this way, like, I know for a fact

3138
03:17:54,640 --> 03:17:59,280
Speaker 1: that if these people did not benefit the system somehow,

3139
03:17:59,560 --> 03:18:02,200
Speaker 1: they would not actually be in power. But they do.

3140
03:18:02,240 --> 03:18:05,640
Speaker 1: They do benefit that and I think, you know, you know,

3141
03:18:05,720 --> 03:18:11,640
Speaker 1: Madain Albright called dot a breath of fresh air um

3142
03:18:11,640 --> 03:18:14,880
Speaker 1: in you know, the nineties when he came to power

3143
03:18:15,240 --> 03:18:18,640
Speaker 1: and then and now here we are, you know, um

3144
03:18:18,800 --> 03:18:22,119
Speaker 1: got its threatening more and threatening succession and talking about

3145
03:18:22,240 --> 03:18:27,000
Speaker 1: serve only you know, spaces and serve only armies and

3146
03:18:27,040 --> 03:18:31,959
Speaker 1: it's just it's exhaust thing. But yeah, it's it's it's

3147
03:18:32,000 --> 03:18:34,520
Speaker 1: also funny. It is funny when you think about it,

3148
03:18:34,560 --> 03:18:40,119
Speaker 1: because the reality is that it doesn't it never had

3149
03:18:40,160 --> 03:18:42,320
Speaker 1: to be like this, and it doesn't have to feel

3150
03:18:42,360 --> 03:18:46,760
Speaker 1: like this in the future either. But unfortunately it will

3151
03:18:46,800 --> 03:18:50,160
Speaker 1: continue to be like this because that's just you know,

3152
03:18:50,200 --> 03:18:53,560
Speaker 1: what the powerful want like what those actually who have

3153
03:18:53,640 --> 03:18:55,959
Speaker 1: some power want. And that's the thing that sucks because

3154
03:18:55,959 --> 03:18:58,600
Speaker 1: when you know, I feel like I'm starting to sound conspirator,

3155
03:18:58,760 --> 03:19:01,520
Speaker 1: but I'm not. Um. You know, when you when you

3156
03:19:01,560 --> 03:19:07,240
Speaker 1: think about like Europe overall and how they looked at Bosnia,

3157
03:19:07,480 --> 03:19:11,560
Speaker 1: I think for the last you know, hundred years, um

3158
03:19:11,640 --> 03:19:15,480
Speaker 1: and their policy towards Bosnia, it's really difficult for me

3159
03:19:15,600 --> 03:19:18,720
Speaker 1: to kind of be filled with any sort of confidence

3160
03:19:18,800 --> 03:19:23,440
Speaker 1: about what their plans are. You know. Yeah, I mean

3161
03:19:23,800 --> 03:19:26,480
Speaker 1: it's it's it's Europe in the United States, two countries

3162
03:19:26,560 --> 03:19:29,880
Speaker 1: that historically have never done anything bad, have never done

3163
03:19:29,920 --> 03:19:37,520
Speaker 1: any genocides, and have never yeah, just absolutely annihilated countries. Yeah, yeah,

3164
03:19:37,560 --> 03:19:39,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just, you know, they're the good guys.

3165
03:19:39,480 --> 03:19:41,760
Speaker 1: So like you said, you know, Bosnians, there are so

3166
03:19:41,840 --> 03:19:45,160
Speaker 1: much as like this press store for you know, these

3167
03:19:45,160 --> 03:19:48,120
Speaker 1: politicians to come and to talk about why we're such

3168
03:19:48,160 --> 03:19:51,080
Speaker 1: a great example of the peace process when we're really

3169
03:19:51,080 --> 03:19:54,000
Speaker 1: we're not, you know, And the thing is they'll you know,

3170
03:19:54,040 --> 03:19:56,760
Speaker 1: they'll come on and they'll say, well, while Dayton wasn't perfect,

3171
03:19:57,200 --> 03:19:59,160
Speaker 1: it was the best solution at the time, and it's

3172
03:19:59,200 --> 03:20:04,400
Speaker 1: like it was not you know, but but they have

3173
03:20:04,560 --> 03:20:07,280
Speaker 1: convinced that themselves that this was like a win for

3174
03:20:08,280 --> 03:20:12,400
Speaker 1: intervention and win for the international community. Now, don't get

3175
03:20:12,400 --> 03:20:18,240
Speaker 1: me wrong, I, alongside everyone I know, is extremely happy

3176
03:20:18,280 --> 03:20:21,920
Speaker 1: that the war ended and that the genocide ended. Um

3177
03:20:21,959 --> 03:20:25,520
Speaker 1: And I think until you're in that position of growing

3178
03:20:25,600 --> 03:20:28,720
Speaker 1: up in the midst of you know, all these bombs

3179
03:20:28,760 --> 03:20:32,360
Speaker 1: and murders and tortures all around you, and you know

3180
03:20:32,440 --> 03:20:34,560
Speaker 1: the only style you ever hear are the sounds of

3181
03:20:34,560 --> 03:20:38,000
Speaker 1: bombs and mortars falling and sniper shooting at you, you

3182
03:20:38,120 --> 03:20:41,680
Speaker 1: won't really know how it feels when that finally stops

3183
03:20:41,680 --> 03:20:47,320
Speaker 1: and when you have some peace, and how difficult um

3184
03:20:47,360 --> 03:20:50,080
Speaker 1: it can be to think about obviously any future sort

3185
03:20:50,120 --> 03:20:53,160
Speaker 1: of prospects of war. Um. And I think that's that

3186
03:20:53,280 --> 03:20:56,800
Speaker 1: also is a is a contributing factor to the overall

3187
03:20:56,840 --> 03:21:01,480
Speaker 1: instability of bossing it because our twenty six years now,

3188
03:21:01,800 --> 03:21:05,959
Speaker 1: our policy as a people but as a country as well,

3189
03:21:06,080 --> 03:21:10,480
Speaker 1: has been as long as there's no shooting, which is

3190
03:21:10,520 --> 03:21:14,320
Speaker 1: not a sound policy because you know, settling for the

3191
03:21:14,320 --> 03:21:17,160
Speaker 1: bare minimum is not helping any of us. Our youths

3192
03:21:17,200 --> 03:21:22,920
Speaker 1: are leaving in observed absurd amounts to Germany, to Austria,

3193
03:21:23,000 --> 03:21:27,000
Speaker 1: to the United States. People are struggling for for jobs,

3194
03:21:27,040 --> 03:21:29,920
Speaker 1: people are struggling to find food, you know, all of

3195
03:21:29,959 --> 03:21:34,200
Speaker 1: these things, um, on top of the threat of war

3196
03:21:34,320 --> 03:21:37,480
Speaker 1: and violence and conflicts. So it's just it's not a

3197
03:21:37,560 --> 03:21:42,000
Speaker 1: sound policy. And I'm just hoping, um, it will change

3198
03:21:42,160 --> 03:21:44,959
Speaker 1: eventually somehow. I mean, I'm going to keep doing my part,

3199
03:21:45,000 --> 03:21:48,640
Speaker 1: which is, you know, yelling and yelling at people in

3200
03:21:48,879 --> 03:21:52,560
Speaker 1: in there on Twitter and in person and pressuring them

3201
03:21:52,600 --> 03:21:54,959
Speaker 1: to do the right thing and to obviously talk about this.

3202
03:21:55,040 --> 03:21:58,240
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I just feel like we have such

3203
03:21:58,280 --> 03:22:03,560
Speaker 1: a long, long, long, long road ahead of us, and um,

3204
03:22:03,600 --> 03:22:07,840
Speaker 1: you know, peace is a process. It's a process. So

3205
03:22:07,959 --> 03:22:12,720
Speaker 1: I think where just at the beginning of that process. Yeah,

3206
03:22:13,200 --> 03:22:16,360
Speaker 1: so much more to do, I think I think that's

3207
03:22:16,360 --> 03:22:23,840
Speaker 1: a good place to end on with just the realization that, yeah,

3208
03:22:23,840 --> 03:22:26,920
Speaker 1: I mean, if if, if there's no fundamental change in

3209
03:22:27,080 --> 03:22:30,320
Speaker 1: the structures and the forces and in the politics that

3210
03:22:30,760 --> 03:22:34,640
Speaker 1: created a worthy created genocide, like it's going to happen again. Yeah,

3211
03:22:34,920 --> 03:22:37,600
Speaker 1: and so you you you have to actually change it.

3212
03:22:37,640 --> 03:22:39,560
Speaker 1: You can't just sort of put this band aid on

3213
03:22:39,600 --> 03:22:41,320
Speaker 1: it and put it in stasis and just leave all

3214
03:22:41,360 --> 03:22:44,160
Speaker 1: the structures intact. You have to now you have to

3215
03:22:44,200 --> 03:22:49,039
Speaker 1: knock them over before you can build something else. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah,

3216
03:22:49,440 --> 03:22:52,560
Speaker 1: unnessa think thank you so much for talking with me. Um,

3217
03:22:52,640 --> 03:22:55,720
Speaker 1: where can people find you? And what books do you

3218
03:22:55,720 --> 03:22:58,160
Speaker 1: want to read? Because as as as we've said over

3219
03:22:58,200 --> 03:23:00,440
Speaker 1: and over Agatten on this podcast, do not get your

3220
03:23:00,440 --> 03:23:04,480
Speaker 1: information from podcast. Actually read books you think you need

3221
03:23:04,520 --> 03:23:08,039
Speaker 1: what you need to do. Um, yeah, well if you Obviously,

3222
03:23:08,080 --> 03:23:10,000
Speaker 1: I know our audience can't se yet, but here's my

3223
03:23:10,080 --> 03:23:16,360
Speaker 1: little one of my little selections of books on Bosnia. Um. Obviously,

3224
03:23:16,400 --> 03:23:19,400
Speaker 1: people can find me on Twitter. Um, you know, type

3225
03:23:19,480 --> 03:23:22,080
Speaker 1: in my name a r n E s A. But

3226
03:23:22,240 --> 03:23:26,560
Speaker 1: my at is at ore are are r an E

3227
03:23:26,800 --> 03:23:30,040
Speaker 1: s s A. Yeah, Twitter is probably the best place.

3228
03:23:30,080 --> 03:23:32,680
Speaker 1: But also I have a book out so if people

3229
03:23:32,680 --> 03:23:35,840
Speaker 1: want to read it. It is about the Bosnian genocide UM,

3230
03:23:35,920 --> 03:23:38,920
Speaker 1: and it is based on real life experiences of my

3231
03:23:39,040 --> 03:23:43,080
Speaker 1: family and friends. It's called Letters from Diaspora. It's more

3232
03:23:43,160 --> 03:23:48,600
Speaker 1: so on the emotional UM side of things. But if

3233
03:23:48,640 --> 03:23:53,200
Speaker 1: you want to learn about the conflict from a leftist perspective,

3234
03:23:53,440 --> 03:23:57,400
Speaker 1: I always recommend UM and I don't know where it's

3235
03:23:57,440 --> 03:24:02,560
Speaker 1: going there, but I always recommend UM Bosnia Kosova and

3236
03:24:03,120 --> 03:24:11,039
Speaker 1: Yugoslavia by Mike Kindadigus. Um. It's the Marxist perspective on

3237
03:24:11,520 --> 03:24:17,680
Speaker 1: the breakup of Yugoslavia. UM. Additionally, I have a pdf

3238
03:24:18,480 --> 03:24:22,480
Speaker 1: on my Twitter of tons of books. So if you

3239
03:24:22,520 --> 03:24:26,119
Speaker 1: want to learn more about Yugoslavia, about Islam and the Balkans,

3240
03:24:26,280 --> 03:24:29,920
Speaker 1: about the history of Bosnia, about the war, genocide, feel

3241
03:24:29,959 --> 03:24:32,200
Speaker 1: free to shoot me a d M. I have a

3242
03:24:32,400 --> 03:24:36,560
Speaker 1: handy little guy that I hand out constantly. Two people. UM.

3243
03:24:36,600 --> 03:24:38,480
Speaker 1: And there's also a list of books on like my

3244
03:24:38,560 --> 03:24:40,760
Speaker 1: website and stuff like that. Yeah, I think I can

3245
03:24:40,800 --> 03:24:42,120
Speaker 1: post it. We can put a link to it in

3246
03:24:42,160 --> 03:24:44,080
Speaker 1: the description. I've I've read some stuff on there. It's

3247
03:24:44,160 --> 03:24:47,840
Speaker 1: very good. You should read it all. Thanks. I pry

3248
03:24:47,920 --> 03:24:55,680
Speaker 1: myself on really good reading list depending on topic. Oh yeah, yeah,

3249
03:24:55,760 --> 03:25:00,240
Speaker 1: well Vanessa, thank you again. And yeah, this this has

3250
03:25:00,280 --> 03:25:02,680
Speaker 1: when it could happen here find us that it could

3251
03:25:02,959 --> 03:25:05,920
Speaker 1: happen here pod on Twitter, Instagram. The rest of the

3252
03:25:05,959 --> 03:25:08,240
Speaker 1: show is that we do are You can find it

3253
03:25:08,240 --> 03:25:12,120
Speaker 1: at the cool Zone on the same places and yeah,

3254
03:25:12,120 --> 03:25:16,080
Speaker 1: oh boy, genocide bad. Hope there's no more work to

3255
03:25:16,160 --> 03:25:32,160
Speaker 1: stop them. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes

3256
03:25:32,320 --> 03:25:34,800
Speaker 1: every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

3257
03:25:35,560 --> 03:25:37,920
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3258
03:25:38,160 --> 03:25:40,840
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool zone Media, visit our website

3259
03:25:40,840 --> 03:25:42,959
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on

3260
03:25:43,000 --> 03:25:45,560
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

3261
03:25:45,600 --> 03:25:48,360
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could

3262
03:25:48,400 --> 03:25:51,400
Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com

3263
03:25:51,440 --> 03:25:53,359
Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.