1 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Y'all, welcome to Zone seven. 2 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: We our own jury watch the Commonwealth versus Karen Reid. Tonight, 3 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 2: we have two brilliant defense attorneys, two media stars that 4 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 2: have both been at ground zero. Honey, Please welcome Susan Hendrix, author, podcaster, 5 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: former news anchor. 6 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Y'all lover her. She's adorable. 7 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 2: Joshua Schiffer, fame defense attorney, regular on Court TV, brilliant 8 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: Danny from Danny after Dark. 9 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: She's a new friend YouTuber. 10 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 2: She has also been at ground zero, honey, y'all just 11 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: got to hang on. 12 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: And the one and only. 13 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: Kurt Nubie, legendary attorney, cancer survivor and awful y'all, thank 14 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 2: you for being with me tonight. I cannot wigh just 15 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 2: right out of the gate. I will start with you, Josh, 16 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: But right out of the gate, what did you think 17 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: of the closing arguments? 18 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 3: The difference in quality compared to Trial one is marked 19 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 3: on both sides. It's a far more sophisticated case. And 20 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 3: I think what we saw today were two very well done, 21 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 3: strongly thought out. You know, these are top professionals. It's 22 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 3: hard to pick on them without an easy counter attack 23 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 3: to whatever you're picking on. They did great, but I 24 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 3: don't think they changed any minds. I don't think that 25 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 3: it came down to the summary of the trial from 26 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 3: the lead litigants in the jury making their decision. 27 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 4: I thought the closing arguments were both very impactful. Alan 28 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 4: Jackson spoke a lot about the science, where I felt 29 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 4: Hank Brennan focus more so on the emotion, which all 30 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 4: it takes is one juror to have that touched. 31 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I agree with Josh. Both remarkably better. 32 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 5: Both were good. I would have liked to see mister 33 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 5: Jackson step away from the podium and his notes a 34 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 5: little more. I think you're going to want to make 35 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 5: eye contact with the jurists constantly. I mean, I've been 36 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 5: in that position. I've delivered a closing argument with the 37 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 5: world watching. But you know, clinging to your notes is 38 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 5: not that you want to make contact. You want to 39 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 5: make points. And I would have liked to see a 40 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 5: little more cohesion to his opening statement. There should be 41 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 5: a connection, right, There should be a complete thing, and 42 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 5: it should have been no collision, no collision, no collision. 43 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 5: We certainly heard that you certainly relied on the science, 44 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 5: but I think it could have been a little more cohesive, 45 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 5: because you want that catch or that sentence that the 46 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 5: jury can take back with him. And I hope they 47 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 5: got it, but I don't know what they did. 48 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 6: I'm glad. There's so many perspectives and it's interesting just 49 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 6: how we see a certain case or what we hear 50 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 6: through a different lens. And I agree that certainly no 51 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 6: minds were changed. But I thought it was the best 52 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 6: closing argument I've ever heard from Alan Jackson. And to me, 53 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 6: his theme was truth. And he says, and I wrote 54 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 6: part of it down. I watched it three times. He says, 55 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 6: where after the truth in this courtroom, you are entitled 56 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 6: to it, demand it, and going through specifics of what 57 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 6: the truth is and what it isn't and saying there 58 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 6: is there was no collision, and he said, I'm not 59 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 6: saying it. This science is and here's why. And I've 60 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 6: always felt that in the way an attorney tries a case, 61 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 6: I believe that the truth is matter of fact. And 62 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 6: I've seen it. I've seen it in Delphi with Rosy 63 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 6: and Baldwin. I believe that when someone is not delivering 64 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 6: a case, is not speaking the truth, it's defiant. It's sarcastic. 65 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 6: It's defensive, and I saw that throughout this trial, and 66 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 6: I believe we also saw it in the closing arguments. 67 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 6: Alan Jackson, to me, did a phenomenal job, and I 68 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 6: believe he is telling the truth. And I hope that 69 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,239 Speaker 6: Karen Reid is found not guilty. 70 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: Sarcastic, argumentative, honey, that was our wedding veils. 71 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 3: It's a good point to focus on, though, because that 72 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 3: presentation to the journey, the demeanor of the two lawyers 73 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 3: they heard from, it's so important setting the tone when 74 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 3: they go back to that room, if the tone can 75 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 3: still be set. Remember, they're not supposed to have discussed 76 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 3: any of the facts. Do we believe that happens. No, 77 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 3: of course not. These people have been stuck together for weeks. 78 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 3: They've got some sort of cohesive tribe. We just don't 79 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 3: know what it looks like. And we don't don't know 80 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 3: whether an aggressive, grandiose, you know, typical defense attorney close 81 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,119 Speaker 3: lands really well, just like we don't know if Hank 82 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 3: Brennan's very matter of fact lecturing. He fits a lot 83 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: of great State molds. He was masterful with his knowledge 84 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 3: of the facts and no notes. I think Susan, did 85 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 3: you mention that, or Danny you mentioned the notes that 86 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 3: Alan Jackson had, Man, you know this case, dude, you 87 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 3: don't need those notes. I really think that that demeanor 88 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 3: and confidence, it can land anyway with a jury, especially 89 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 3: one that's been sitting ruminating on this for weeks. 90 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: Josh real quick, who was the best from the commonwealth. 91 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 3: The best witness or the best lawyer or you know, 92 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 3: Hank Brennan did a very very strong job as a 93 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: prosecuting attorney. I see his defense seeping through. I see 94 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 3: his gamesmanship in his strategy, some of which I think 95 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 3: worked really well on this trial because it kept the 96 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 3: defense on its toes, some of which kind of landed flat. 97 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 3: His case that he got when he showed up in 98 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: the office sucked though, and we've all talked about that 99 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 3: going to war with you know, every other bullet man. 100 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 3: That's a tough when you get into a standoff. 101 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 6: Is that Why do you think that he brought in 102 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 6: that he brought in the hoodie of John O'Keefe, that 103 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 6: tactic that even the judge called out and said it 104 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 6: was implied by Hank Brennan that the expert on the 105 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 6: stand wolf was somehow missing the marks and the hoodie, 106 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 6: when in fact that was done on purpose. In my opinion, anyway, 107 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 6: the tactics I feel like weren't truthful with Hank Brennan. 108 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 3: I'd love to hear Kirk talk about that even more, 109 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 3: because the malfeasance of the state lands really differently than 110 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 3: the mouthfeasance of the defense. The defense kind of gets 111 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 3: away with a little bit of Hey, we're throwing a 112 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 3: lot of stuff at you, because we're the defense and 113 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 3: Zell's defense is what we're supposed to do. State they're 114 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 3: held to a high standard, which is exactly why the 115 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 3: hoodie and then later on those X rays destroys the 116 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 3: confidence of what a jury needs in order to return 117 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: a conviction. 118 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,239 Speaker 5: Amen, Suitsan watching me on h l End and saying, 119 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 5: Alan Jackson delivered a better closing argument. 120 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 7: I'm gonna pretend I wasn't hurt. 121 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 5: By that, all right, A little bit. I'm gonna pretend 122 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 5: I wasn't hurt by that, all right. No, But but 123 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 5: I agree with a lot of ones, Josh said to 124 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 5: Susan's point, because I thought the best part of Alan 125 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 5: Jackson's closing, which is something I didn't wasn't sure how 126 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 5: he was gonna dress it. 127 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 7: If he's gonna dress it was the hoodie, et cetera. 128 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 5: Because you know that the commonwealth in this case has 129 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 5: a real, real solid credibility problem, right, They couldn't culture 130 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 5: per proctor. 131 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 7: We still heard the text messages from his friend. 132 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 5: We heard, you know, Officer Dever or Diver and heard 133 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 5: you know, false memory that she's claiming and some of 134 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 5: these other issues and as well as as the misrepresented resume. 135 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 7: If shannonmergency have all. 136 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 5: Those things right, and the credibility comes to it, and 137 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 5: then he's holding up a sweatshirt. And Alan Jackson did 138 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 5: a good job of saying, nobody on the commonwealth did it. 139 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 5: There were these attorneys there, no one stopped, No one 140 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 5: stopped to say anything. And you fold that into the 141 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 5: fact the judge let and I was very surprised she 142 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 5: did this. Let the defense attorney and I can't remember 143 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 5: if mister Alessie hold that sweatshirt up to me. That 144 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 5: was like, hey, the defense has the credibility. They're showing 145 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 5: you this and I'm reading you this. And this was 146 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 5: a BS tactic, a part of the commonwealth, And you 147 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 5: go back to this idea, no matter what you think 148 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 5: of the evidence, amentter the emotion of the loss of 149 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 5: John o'keeth. The Commonwealth has a real credibility problem and 150 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 5: they only dug deeper when they did that sort of action. 151 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 5: And mister Jackson, the high point of his closing argument 152 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 5: was the way he pulled that out. 153 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: And Susan, you've been there, so when you started seeing 154 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: people all around the courthouse, did they have like a 155 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 2: fan favorite of an expert? 156 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 6: And I wanted to ask Danny after dark who I 157 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 6: followed by the way. I was there week two and 158 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 6: I wanted to ask Danny what it was like since 159 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 6: then because to me watching every single day. So I 160 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 6: was there week two, but Robert Alessi hadn't really played 161 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 6: a major part in it from what I saw, and 162 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 6: then he became almost like the superhero of the defense. 163 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 6: I mean, he's just, in my opinion, beyond belief. So 164 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 6: when I was out there, there was this kind of 165 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 6: buffer zone. So it was explained to me because I 166 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 6: didn't Not only did I I wasn't there during the 167 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,239 Speaker 6: first trial. I didn't even watch it, so I'm relatively 168 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 6: new to this case only the second trial. But those 169 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 6: who were there Karen Reed supporters were explaining to me 170 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 6: at this trial there's a buffer zone, so Danny probably 171 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 6: speaks to it more on how Danny gets built up 172 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 6: or the difference, if you will, And. 173 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: Y'all, I gotta just I got a buddy in for 174 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: a second, Danny. Susan was so cute. 175 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 2: She called me and she said, Hey, I'm going to 176 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: be covering this case. Do you think there's really anything 177 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 2: I need to catch up own or look at before 178 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 2: go the there. 179 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: Well, when I. 180 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 2: Stopped laughing, I was like, girl, there is so much 181 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 2: to catch up on. 182 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: But Susan, you did a phenomenal job. 183 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 6: I called I Cheron and I went, oh my, you 184 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 6: just can't believe. You can't. I cannot see what I saw. 185 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 3: Once you see it's it's unlike I've been pretty deeply 186 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 3: involved in true crime for five years and you know, 187 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 3: a fan of it since I was a kid and 188 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 3: I became a Crown defence lawyer. I watched Night Court. 189 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 3: That's the greatest show of all time. At this trial 190 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 3: outstrips even like the depth heard stuff when it comes 191 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 3: to the attachment of people, and I mean, people just 192 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 3: are incensed, they are angry, they are pleased, they are 193 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 3: saying the worst things to each other. It's unlike any 194 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 3: other cultural moment that I've seen since. Literally, like we're 195 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 3: talking Oje, that's how big this is. 196 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: And Danny, you have been there. Talk to me, honey 197 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: about the buffer. 198 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 4: Zone, the fuffer zone. Yes, so that was not there 199 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 4: during the first trial, as Susan had mentioned, it is 200 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 4: here now and it's followed somewhat for the most part. 201 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 4: But what's really unique this time around is the kind 202 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 4: of camaraderie of the community who was there. There's a 203 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 4: lot of support, there's a lot of just kindness overall. 204 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 4: I think some of the times what I see on 205 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 4: the media of what's being portrayed versus what is actually 206 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 4: happening there is just a little bit different. And to 207 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 4: go back to Susan's question, we got to see a 208 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 4: little bit of Robert Alessi during the pre trial motions 209 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 4: to get a sense of who he was as an attorney. 210 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 4: But everything changed when he cross examined Shannon Burgess from 211 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 4: aperture on the stand and then he just to be 212 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 4: perfectly honest, you know, the people of Boston and New 213 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 4: England just fell in love with him. He's so smart 214 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 4: and was the missing piece to this puzzle for a 215 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 4: trial too that we really needed. 216 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to tell y'all I am spoiled when 217 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: it comes to prosecutors. My first one, as most people know, 218 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 2: when I was assigned to the Major Case Division, was 219 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: Nancy Grace. My second one was Sheila Ross. If y'all 220 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 2: know anything about Sheila, Sheila's. 221 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 3: Oh, I l meant Sheila has seen some wars. 222 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 2: Wars and she has been victorious. Another one was Sean Lagrua, 223 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 2: who went on to be part of our Supreme Court 224 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: in Georgia Francy Hayes, which went on. She went on 225 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: to the Eleventh Circuit in the Federal Court. So I 226 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 2: will admit I have had stellar prosecutors. When I see 227 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: a lead detective that is beyond compromised, when I see 228 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 2: there's any question about a police officer misremembering, when I 229 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: see evidence being shown and it's misrepresented, I can't get 230 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: past some of this, y'all. 231 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it. 232 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 2: It baffles me that we are talking about a murder 233 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: case where there's no elements of murder. 234 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 3: And that gets back to all right, so say it 235 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: drops in your lap. As a practitioner, do you handle 236 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: the case in the way that either Brennan or primarily Jackson, 237 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 3: I imagine he steers the ship, chose to do it 238 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 3: because one of the critiques, and I've talked with Kirk 239 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 3: about this and so many of the other pundits and 240 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 3: on Vinnie, is if you were going to just walk 241 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 3: into this case as a brand new defense team looking 242 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: at the second trial that you were not the first trial. 243 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 3: You've got this nice clean break, how do you form 244 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: the defense? And I think there's a real justification for 245 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 3: a smaller, cleaner, discreete defense about simply sufficiency and the 246 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 3: problems and requirements that the state is encountered, because I 247 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 3: think that could be really powerful for twenty to forty 248 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: percent of your jurors. 249 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 6: Didn't they do that or no? 250 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 3: No, I thought they They had to kind of wade 251 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 3: into all the circus stuff and that created a problem. 252 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 3: They made on the defense side, a bunch of promises 253 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 3: in the opening that they never fulfilled, and jurors can 254 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 3: stick on that when they're reading their notebooks. 255 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 6: Well, trial one, I thought they went after the someone 256 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 6: else did it. This is a big conspiracy and everyone's 257 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 6: trying to set Karen up. And I think that didn't work. Clearly. 258 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 6: I thought they learned from that, and they were saying 259 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 6: there was no collision. No one, not an expert for 260 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 6: the Commonwealth or the defense, would say that the injuries 261 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 6: on John O'Keefe aligned with being struck by a vehicle. 262 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 6: So I think they did a genius job by pivoting 263 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 6: from that and saying there was no collision. I thought 264 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 6: it was an excellent job pivoting from the first But 265 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 6: I'm not an attorney. I just saw a pivot there, 266 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 6: and I thought it was less for the jury to 267 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 6: wrap their head around. No one likes a big conspiracy theory. 268 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 6: No one believes that so many people can stick to 269 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 6: one lie or what have you. So I think it 270 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 6: shows he wasn't struck by a vehicle, and even the 271 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 6: Commonwealth experts aren't able to say that he was. 272 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 4: I completely agree with Susan, and I. 273 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 5: Want to disagree with Susan to a little bit. The 274 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 5: pimot might have been brilliant, but what would have been 275 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 5: more brilliant is not needing to pivot in the first place. 276 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 5: Because when this trial, when the first trial started, I 277 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 5: thought they are never this purported conspiracy is never going 278 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 5: to resonate e. Why not focus on the one thing 279 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 5: that relates to the element of the two major charges, 280 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 5: and that is was he hit by the car period 281 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 5: and fixate on that and show that there was no 282 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 5: evidence to supported They had every bit of evidence available 283 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 5: to them in the second trial as it relates to 284 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 5: the car accident they did the first. Had they brought 285 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 5: that kind of approach, and they may still earn an 286 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 5: acquittal with that kind of approach. Had they bought that 287 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 5: kind of approach to the first trial instead of the 288 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 5: conspiracy that he went in the house, he was beat up, 289 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 5: things of that nature. Had they focused on the lack 290 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 5: of a murder as Cheryl talked about, and the lack 291 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 5: of contact, the lack of fractures, what have you, I 292 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 5: think they easily would have earned an acquittal and the 293 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 5: first trial because of the level of prosecution fumbles we 294 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 5: saw the first trial that we didn't see in the second. 295 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 5: So I think keeping it simple and direct, I always 296 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 5: think the best path to a not guilty verdict is 297 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,239 Speaker 5: to put a train on a track and drive it 298 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 5: fast right up to prosecution, right at them. 299 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 7: And that's the way you do it. 300 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 5: You go aggress it, you go hard and believe that's 301 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 5: what they did this trial that they should have done 302 00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 5: in the first. 303 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 6: And the documentary clearly worked against her because that, to me, 304 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 6: is what the Commonwealth keeps playing, just her own voice 305 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 6: and her own words during that documentary. But I will say, Kirk, 306 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 6: you have a point there, and maybe that's why they 307 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 6: swayed to what they're doing now. And we'll see if 308 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 6: it worked. But I believe that that it was key 309 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 6: to do that, and I believe that they learned from that. 310 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 6: And I think that Karen Reid is not likable. I 311 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 6: thought she was guilty when I first watched episode one 312 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 6: and two of the documentary and again knowing nothing, not 313 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 6: watching not a minute of the testimony from trial on. 314 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 6: Then I watched Higgins's testimony and went, what's he hiding? 315 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 6: Why is he going to some military base? Yes, there 316 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 6: was alcohol, a lot of it consumed by everybody there. 317 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 6: Why were there's so many lies and Albert not coming 318 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 6: out of his home that I don't know what happened, 319 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 6: and I don't think we'll ever know, but I believe 320 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,239 Speaker 6: he was in that house and something happened and they 321 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 6: tried to cover it up. What I don't think we'll 322 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 6: ever know. But the lies and the constant deceit on 323 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 6: the stand and looking at the judge and saying, Higgins saying, 324 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 6: if I were to do that, I have every right 325 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 6: to destroy my phone. All of that aligns to a 326 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 6: not guilty to me. 327 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 3: A part of me says, the reason the defense opened 328 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 3: and made such a big deal about the third party 329 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 3: culpability angle was they really wanted to go there, but 330 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 3: that pivot occurred because it was kind of forced. Judge 331 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 3: kicked out whatever about a third that maybe fifty percent 332 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 3: of that defense by limiting the introduction of it pre trial, 333 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 3: so that tweaked it. And then I almost think that 334 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 3: the defense came up with some of the sufficiency arguments 335 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 3: that really worked for us during the trial itself. You 336 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 3: know how you have this amazing plan, but then once 337 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 3: you hit the ground, conditions are just a little bit different. 338 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 3: And that pivot, which makes for the finest of lawyers 339 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 3: and the ability to put together a cojin argument, they 340 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 3: they did it because they did maximize some of those 341 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 3: inexcusable self owns by the commonwealth. 342 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I have said several times that if 343 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 2: it were me, and I'm not a lawyer, never been 344 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: to law school, but I've sat through many a trial, 345 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: testified in hundreds, and I would have me a big 346 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 2: old poster board, and I would have the state's case, 347 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 2: and I would have eyewitness that I would pull the 348 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 2: tape off. They ain't got it. Ear witness, ain't got it. 349 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: Lead detective, ain't got one, a medical examiner that agrees 350 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 2: with them, don't have it. Expert that didn't lie on 351 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 2: their CV. Ain't got that train of custody, ain't got it, 352 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 2: missing evidence new and Cheryl, Now you and. 353 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 3: I know some of the same people. Our judges hear 354 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 3: that the state's case doesn't have their lead detective. Because 355 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 3: of this, that, and there, the judge is going to 356 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 3: have some conversations with people. That's arguably not getting anywhere 357 00:20:59,200 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 3: close to. 358 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: Trop No way is it going close to trial. 359 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 2: And part of the issue for me is if you 360 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: start taking these things away. They don't have a death investigator, 361 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: they don't have a forensic pathologist, they don't have anybody, 362 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 2: and you start moving these you know tabs, the state's. 363 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: Case is blank. 364 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 2: They got nothing that they should have before they bring 365 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: a second murder charge against anybody. 366 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 3: And part of me says, if you were really aggressive. 367 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 3: You just start the defense case with you ain't gonna 368 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 3: hear from the lead detective because he's not a detective anymore. 369 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 3: You're going to hear a bunch of lies from these 370 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 3: witnesses because they've been investigated by people. We can't really 371 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 3: talk about it, but that's going to be really plain. 372 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 7: You know. 373 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 3: It's that kind of scorched earth tactic that I think 374 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,479 Speaker 3: judges are afraid of, and they would have leaned all 375 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 3: over the state to ditch. 376 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: This case all over. 377 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: And Danny, did you hear anybody in the community talking 378 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 2: about was evidence planted? 379 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: Because I've got people that Kate won't tell me. 380 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: But there was tail light in his clothing. Yeah, there 381 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: was also pig DNA, no. 382 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 6: Blood, no skin, no tissue on the tail light. By 383 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 6: the way, I. 384 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: Would no skin, no tissue. 385 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: Who's going to play it fragments of glass versus plant 386 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: and pig DNA? 387 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 1: What is more plausible. 388 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 4: One of the things, and I know Mac that we 389 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 4: have messaged quite a bit about this case, is that 390 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 4: from being a resident here, you know, growing up native 391 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 4: in Boston, to see this trial unfold has been very 392 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 4: unsettling for the community. At the very core of it, 393 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 4: and I think this might get lost a little bit 394 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 4: in between the free Karen Reid movement versus the Justice 395 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 4: from John O'Keefe movement, which can both can be true. 396 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 4: At the end of the day, a Boston police officer 397 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 4: is dead and a truthful and honest and correct investigation 398 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 4: was not done, so there really will never be answers 399 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 4: to what happened, like Joshua said to John O'Keeffe. But 400 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 4: at the same time, this has really outraged the community 401 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 4: here because it has just shown that the whether you 402 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:26,239 Speaker 4: think it's incompetence or just corruption or planting evidence like 403 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 4: it's been alluded, that's happened, this could be any one 404 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 4: of us, like any of us could be Karen Reid, 405 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 4: because law enforcement didn't do a proper job in investigating 406 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 4: this case, and now you know there's a woman on trial, 407 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 4: you know, a retrial case for this murder. In one 408 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 4: of the things that when Karen Reid's parents every day 409 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 4: outside the courthouse come outside to say hello and take 410 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 4: the time to thank all of us for being there 411 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 4: to support our daughter, they're just amazing people. In one 412 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 4: of the things I said to mister Read this week 413 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 4: was this could be any of us. Karen could be 414 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 4: any of us. 415 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 2: I think all of us have said John o'keef deserved better, 416 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 2: so did Karen's family, because no matter what happened, the 417 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 2: truth should be there for people to be able to 418 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 2: accept it and move from it. 419 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: Well, that's not happening here. 420 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: And I'm gonna tell you, even if she's convicted, they're 421 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 2: gonna appeal. This ain't gonna end. I mean, it's gonna 422 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 2: keep going because we don't know. And here's something I 423 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 2: want to ask all of y'all. As I'm watching the closing, 424 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: the Commonwealth literally ends showing this video of a reenactment 425 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 2: with this mannequin. The mannequin's arm broke the tail light. 426 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 2: The mannequin spun three sixty and basically fell, but fell 427 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 2: nowhere near the flag pole. And I'm like, am I 428 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:03,479 Speaker 2: the only one that seems the Commonwealth just blew their 429 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: own case up. In the closing, they proved it didn't happen. 430 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 3: I'll take that head on if you. The state has 431 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 3: an obligation to carry their case and prove their facts 432 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 3: beyond a reasonable doubt. They also have an obligation to 433 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 3: dismiss or otherwise dispose of cases that don't meet that standard. 434 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 3: And unfortunately, there's going to be many people saying that 435 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 3: the state violated their good faith oaths by bringing this case, because, 436 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 3: as you just said, even their best experts, and Susan 437 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 3: mentioned this a couple of times, even their best experts, 438 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 3: the State's perfect people who are supposed to be out 439 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 3: there beyond a reasonable doubt, even they couldn't say that's 440 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 3: absolutely what happened. And it becomes then asking a jury 441 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 3: a guess, you know it's good enough. Come on, you 442 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 3: guys can get me all the way up to manslaught. 443 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 3: Come on, that's not the way Krim justice is supposed 444 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 3: to work, which then brings me to what Danny was 445 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 3: talking about. I we don't tell anybody in Georgia was 446 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 3: secretly born in Framingham, Massachusetts, and moved as a young child. 447 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 3: I then returned to the North for undergrad at Clark 448 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 3: University of Western mass and spent tons of time in 449 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 3: little towns south of Boston, drinking my butt off in 450 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 3: all these bars. There is a universe of townies that 451 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 3: is big and going to a bar seven days a 452 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 3: week with the same fifty schlubs man. That's the community. 453 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 3: Every crazy story you can imagine happens in these communities. 454 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 3: So when you see all of the yeah phones disappearing 455 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,479 Speaker 3: at Military, when you see that and you live in 456 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 3: that community, man, you don't know what happened, but you 457 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 3: sure know the truth didn't come out because other people 458 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 3: were covering stuff up, even if it wasn't related to 459 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 3: the dead cop on the front yard of another cops house. 460 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 3: And it's just the mentality of man, you live in 461 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 3: Massachusetts and the idea that then they didn't do an investigation. 462 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 3: Then in the South a cop does they lock everything 463 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 3: down for a mile. 464 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 6: Radius New Jersey too. 465 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: It's nuts, as it should be. 466 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: And that's something I've said, these Boston police officers, where 467 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 2: are they? 468 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: Where are they? I don't see that. 469 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 2: Outpouring that support that's standing with John o'keef that we 470 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 2: should and Kirk, I want to ask you something. The 471 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 2: just ugliness, the vitul the hateful comments on both sides. 472 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I've heard some horrible language about why she's guilty. 473 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: I've heard horrible language why she's not guilty. 474 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: And one thing I had one person in particular come 475 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 2: at me and I said, listen, if you can tell 476 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 2: me why I'm wrong without using I feel, I think, 477 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 2: or I believe. I'll accept it. I will hear you 478 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 2: because I don't have to use those words. I know 479 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 2: someone lied on their CV. I know the lead detective 480 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 2: has been disgraced. 481 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: I know this. 482 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 2: That's a fact. It's not coming from me. That's a 483 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 2: fact in this case. So what I want to know 484 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: from you because experts can't agree either. The general public 485 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: can't agree. Well to me, when you have that you 486 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: have reasonable doubt. 487 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 7: I agree. 488 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 5: And it goes back to you know, something we were 489 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 5: talking about earlier, when we talk about passion and what 490 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 5: have you, Right, people begin to attach to a certain side, 491 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 5: and I think one of the things we can see, 492 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 5: like on social media. I certainly experienced that in areas 493 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 5: everybody was very passionate about it. Right, And if you 494 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 5: have jurism or reflective of the passions of the general public, 495 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 5: we're going to see a great divide, possibly another mistrial, right, 496 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 5: because the facts that don't fit in are discarded as garbage, 497 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 5: and they have a narrative, they have a story they're 498 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 5: telling themselves, and you're right. So you know, Lallie said 499 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 5: this in the in the last Jar, which I thought 500 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 5: was kind of funny. Facts are stubborn things and they 501 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 5: don't change and they may not equip to your story. 502 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 5: But if something doesn't fit a story, if people don't 503 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 5: like it and they'd married to a certain story, they're 504 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 5: not They're just going to ignore that fact, Cheryl, And 505 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 5: you can see that an interaction. So you wonder, you know, oh, 506 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 5: to be a fly on the wall in the deliberation room, 507 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 5: because I mean, I remember being in cases where you 508 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 5: could hear the jury yelling at each other asking if 509 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 5: they could pick old men off the jury because they 510 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 5: didn't like his his take on it right, And so 511 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 5: facts be damned sometimes, and I think this is one 512 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 5: of those cases where we could see that kind of 513 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 5: patch and arise whether it's you know, wanting you know, 514 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 5: people say justice for Jonnald Keith? What is justice for 515 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 5: Johnald Keith? Convicting an innocent woman? Is that what that means? 516 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 5: And there's so many people in the jury that might 517 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 5: think that that's what it means, or might not always 518 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 5: flect on that idea, might want to look at the 519 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 5: presumption of innocence because of what a great guy he 520 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 5: was purported to be. 521 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 7: So yeah, passion plays a big part in. 522 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 6: This, and I want to touch on what Danny said 523 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 6: about like kindness outside of the court. And I noticed 524 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 6: that I was out there by myself and people came 525 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 6: up to me, introduced themselves. I got to know people 526 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 6: I interviewed. They're just so kind. And we all know Derek, right, 527 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 6: And I was talking to him the other day and 528 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 6: he said, why aren't you from the Truth or Derek Podcast? 529 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 6: Why haven't you been on Twitter lately? And I thought, 530 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 6: he's right, I'm going to post something. And the vitriol 531 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 6: that came out of a post. I interviewed Turtle Boy 532 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 6: about when he first heard about the case or what 533 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 6: have you, and I know that he sparked some of that. 534 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 6: But even besides Turtle Boy, if I just posted some thing, 535 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 6: and I respect other people's opinions, but to bring up 536 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 6: Delphi and say that I've changed and I'm sucked into 537 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 6: the Karen Reid movement and that I'm blinded and they're 538 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 6: so disappointed in me. What does this have to do 539 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 6: with Delphi. That's a completely different case. So to hold 540 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 6: me to believing everything everyone else believes, it's my opinion, 541 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 6: and I do feel like we are watching two different trials, 542 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 6: but I respect them and I think they should show 543 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 6: respect equally. I'm done venting. 544 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 3: Well yeah really, and this has been and I know 545 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: some of it is. I also having spent time in Massachusetts, 546 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 3: it's reflective. I think of a certain way that a 547 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 3: community anthropologically communicates. My friends from South Boston much like 548 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 3: my New York friends, much like my LA friends. They 549 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 3: have a certain demeanor and they're they're brusque. 550 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 6: So am I and I respect you if you're from 551 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 6: Boston and you have something to say, but don't say 552 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 6: it behind a keyboard in your basement on Twitter, Yeah, 553 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 6: and pretend to be respectful. I'm following me during Delphi. 554 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 6: I don't need the compliments, but I certainly don't need 555 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 6: the insults, So go to hell. 556 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, the insults. It's just like you people are horrific. 557 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 3: If you're an ad hominem, you lost you you. 558 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: Just did. 559 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 7: You know. 560 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: Listen, you four live it, you breathe it, you understand it, 561 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,719 Speaker 2: and you were all respectful of it. 562 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,479 Speaker 1: And that's something you know. 563 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 2: We have not always agreed on every single thing, but 564 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 2: the respect that I have for y'all, the love that 565 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 2: I have for y'all, the friendship that I have never waivers. 566 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: And I mean, y'all can hear me argue with Nancy. 567 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 2: I don't always agree with her, but here's what I 568 00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: always do. If she sees something so differently than I'm 569 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 2: going to go back and look at it and see 570 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: what I missed. 571 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: And if I didn't miss anything, in my opinion, I 572 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: still lover. 573 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 2: Let's just go have Margarita to talk about something else. 574 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 2: But here's what I want to know from y'all before 575 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 2: we conclude. When is the verdict coming back and what 576 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 2: is it going to be? 577 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 3: Josh soon and I believe not guilty. They might wann 578 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 3: that ridiculous verdict form, choose a compromise verdict, but I 579 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 3: really think it's. 580 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 6: Going to be not guilty, not guilty on Monday about 581 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 6: ten am. 582 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: Wow, that was real specific, Danny. 583 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 4: I'm going to go price with right style and say 584 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 4: Monday ten am. 585 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 3: That verdict. 586 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 4: I do think it will be Monday and it will 587 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 4: be not guilty. 588 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 5: Kurt, I don't have as much confidence as as my 589 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 5: colleagues here. I'm not sure in this asked if they 590 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 5: jury can really determine what happened, Another hung jury wouldn't 591 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 5: surprise me. I could see Wednesday, I could see this 592 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 5: going because the judge would keep him at it. But 593 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 5: I could see it happening again because the case is 594 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 5: so polarizing. And again, all it takes is one person 595 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 5: to hang through it. 596 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 3: Not to mention something. Two off Tucket Weinstein's trial. Look 597 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 3: what happened to that They convicted on one of the 598 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 3: three charges, acquitted on one of the three charges, then 599 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 3: told him to come back on the third charge. Then 600 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 3: the foreman of the jury asked to be released because 601 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 3: he was under he didn't feel safe returning. And then 602 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 3: they hung on the third, which they've said they're already 603 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 3: going to retry. 604 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 6: But I think the more we try Karen read, the 605 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 6: more that the Alberts are looked at, and do they 606 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 6: want to be further investigated? Then keep trying the innocent 607 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 6: woman and Josh. 608 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,439 Speaker 2: You remember Midnight in the Garden Good Need. How many 609 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 2: times did they retry him. 610 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 3: At Georgia is known to keep going until they get 611 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 3: their pound of flesh. And it's not just Georgia they 612 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 3: can if they can't win in trial. Some people would 613 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 3: say an ultimate betrayal of state power is just ruining 614 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 3: your life forever because they can't just bringing you back 615 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 3: and back keeping you under investigation. There have been cases 616 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 3: in Georgia that they just keep open for eight or 617 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 3: ten years, and that's how we have so many speedy 618 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 3: trial the cases litigated. It's tough. 619 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 2: Well listen, I mean, we are about out of time, 620 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 2: and I just got to say, Kurt, I appreciate you. 621 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 2: I appreciate you on a professional and personal level. You 622 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 2: always check on by sister Sheila, who is still battling cancer. Susan, 623 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 2: you know, I appreciate you and your friendship with Charlene 624 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 2: Lord help you and any I just love that you've 625 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 2: joined us and you've held your own baby. 626 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 1: It wasn't no worry. 627 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 2: And Joshua I will see you soon and we still 628 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 2: have a lunch date with me. 629 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: You and Huck will soon. Thank you all. Thank you all. 630 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: So I'm going to end Zone. 631 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 2: Seven the way that I always do with a quote. 632 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 2: Atticus told me to delete the adjectives and I'd have 633 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: the facts. Harper Lee to Kill a Mockingbird. I'm Cheryl 634 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 2: McCollum and this is on seven