Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jana Kramer and Michael Cosson and I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and People's Choice Award nominated podcast.
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm really excited because we have Katherine Oxenberg
Speaker 2: in studio. An Okay, Catherine, I it's you have a
Speaker 2: fascinating story. How before I jump into it? Do you
Speaker 2: know Sarah Edmondson?
Speaker 3: I do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, So we did a movie together about Gosh.
Speaker 2: It was a year and a half ago, No, two
Speaker 2: years ago. It's two years ago, and it's it's so
Speaker 2: weird now thinking back to our conversation because I I
Speaker 2: remember her saying some kind of weird, weird, weird things,
Speaker 2: but it was it was off. And then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, I saw her on Dateline and I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god. I did a Hallmark movie with her,
Speaker 2: a Christmas movie. Yeah, And so I instagrammed her and
Speaker 2: I was just like, hey, because I know that she
Speaker 2: you know, she talked all about being in this Nexium
Speaker 2: cult and she has you know, the book, her book
Speaker 2: that just came out, and so I just didn't know
Speaker 2: how big or small that world was. And if you
Speaker 2: knew of her, or you know, if because your daughter
Speaker 2: was the one that was in the Nexium Cults. Correct,
Speaker 2: that is correct.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I definitely met Sarah through Nexium when it was
Speaker 4: called Executive Success Program, which was the consumer facing company
Speaker 4: that she was a coach for. And so yeah, in
Speaker 4: the beginning, she was a big recruiter and I didn't
Speaker 4: really have anything to do with the organization. I stopped
Speaker 4: taking classes probably in twenty thirteen, but my daughter stated
Speaker 4: and she remained a coach and became very involved. And
Speaker 4: Sarah was quite high up and as far as owning
Speaker 4: a center in Vancouver and being responsible for bringing in
Speaker 4: I don't know, maybe thousands of people, but well, and that's.
Speaker 2: Kind of what I was like. I felt like she
Speaker 2: was trying to bring me into something. So I remember
Speaker 2: being like it was just very strange, and I was like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm not really like I'm good, you know. But then
Speaker 2: I was just like, oh my gosh, it's all connected. Wow.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's very charismatic. She's a really so sweet, a
Speaker 4: durable person, and I can see why she was a
Speaker 4: great recruiter, and I can see why she's a great
Speaker 4: whistleblower too. She is the same passion and she's the
Speaker 4: one who when I first was told about what was
Speaker 4: really going on, which would have been April twenty seventeen,
Speaker 4: and that my daughter had probably been branded. I met
Speaker 4: with Sarah and she showed me her brand and on
Speaker 4: her butt right, No, it's not on her butt, it's
Speaker 4: like on.
Speaker 3: Her pelvic area.
Speaker 2: Pelvic area that's.
Speaker 4: In the front and hers today is the only brand
Speaker 4: that I've actually seen. But she and I were in
Speaker 4: the first New York Times article that broke the story
Speaker 4: originally and got the attention of the government. And then
Speaker 4: I went ballistic on a war path with from one
Speaker 4: media outlet to the other until.
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's just start over then. So okay, well,
Speaker 2: now that we get let's start from the beginning. So you,
Speaker 2: you and your daughter went to this class. I'll let
Speaker 2: you kind of started off. How did it start?
Speaker 4: Innocently? It was a self help leadership program. My daughter
Speaker 4: was about started business. Sarah Edmondson was one of the
Speaker 4: coaches in that first class.
Speaker 3: I'd done a lot of self help.
Speaker 4: It didn't seem particularly original. My daughter loved it from
Speaker 4: the beginning. I think what hooked me a little bit
Speaker 4: was they did these emotional processes that to unhook reactivity
Speaker 4: or what they considered you know any limitations that you have,
Speaker 4: and what's actually happening is they're unhooking your gut and
Speaker 4: they're just starting to dismantle your personality. But it feels good,
Speaker 4: and a lot of these large group awareness trainings use
Speaker 4: very similar techniques. I think that probably Keith Ranieri, although
Speaker 4: he says his material was proprietary and you'd sign an NDA,
Speaker 4: I think most of it was plagiarized from other of
Speaker 4: these well known trainings, whether it be ste or Landmark
Speaker 4: or Scientology. I think that he stole a lot of stuff.
Speaker 4: So not you know, but my daughter got very involved
Speaker 4: and there was a huge emphasis on recruitment and they
Speaker 4: were making a lot of money off people.
Speaker 5: At one point, Catherine, did you kind of read between
Speaker 5: the lines and realize this isn't exactly what we signed
Speaker 5: up for and get yourself out? And then like, why
Speaker 5: was there such a discrepancy in time between when you
Speaker 5: got yourself out and then getting your daughter India out.
Speaker 4: You know, it's an interesting thing that you say getting
Speaker 4: myself out. I never really considered myself in because I
Speaker 4: just took classes and there was a huge difference between
Speaker 4: somebody who was taking the occasional class versus somebody who
Speaker 4: signed up for the Coach Path, which Sarah was a coach,
Speaker 4: and those people were taking this program seriously, and they
Speaker 4: are the ones that they considered to be really dedicated
Speaker 4: to improving humanity. Like there was a big emphas on
Speaker 4: the Doctrine and on Keith Ranieriy, who they called the Vanguard.
Speaker 4: So I never really got in. I just took classes
Speaker 4: and then I'm like, you know what, this is weird.
Speaker 4: But the reason I wrote a book, which came out
Speaker 4: actually last year, was because those warning signs. If I'd
Speaker 4: recognized that they were dangerous versus just thinking, okay, so
Speaker 4: these are quirky people, I would have run away. I
Speaker 4: would have never exposed my daughter to anything as dangerous
Speaker 4: as this. It's just that I was naive. I didn't
Speaker 4: really understand how these groups work, and I didn't understand
Speaker 4: the process of indoctrination and how easy it is to
Speaker 4: kind of hijack somebody's mind without.
Speaker 3: You being aware.
Speaker 2: So was India branded?
Speaker 3: India was branded here.
Speaker 4: I did an intervention with her, which was May twenty seventeen,
Speaker 4: and I point blank asked her if she'd been branded,
Speaker 4: and she didn't lie, which was strange. Because everyone within
Speaker 4: the organization is taught to lie to everybody on the outside.
Speaker 2: So why would you think that she was getting like,
Speaker 2: what were the things that you saw that were that
Speaker 2: was off?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 4: So in the beginning, she became a little more distant,
Speaker 4: she became a little bit more serious, She felt more
Speaker 4: burdened to me, but it could have been you know, Okay.
Speaker 4: So one of the heads of the organization, Nancy Salzman,
Speaker 4: who was higher than Sarah, told me, well, India's individuating, and.
Speaker 3: So I could I could I could buy that.
Speaker 4: No, she was a young woman and she was separating
Speaker 4: from me and her family, and she was trying to
Speaker 4: find her own way. So a lot of the symptoms
Speaker 4: that are like, wow, doesn't feel like my daughter anymore,
Speaker 4: doesn't have that kind of brightness and that joyful spirit.
Speaker 4: I didn't know that these were symptoms of her actually
Speaker 4: having her personality dismantled and taking on a cult persona.
Speaker 3: And that's what happened.
Speaker 4: She slowly but surely started to change, and it was
Speaker 4: so slow, it's such a slow drip that it wasn't
Speaker 4: until it was too late that I realized that they'd
Speaker 4: taken her.
Speaker 2: And that s what do you mean if I've taken her,
Speaker 2: what does that consist of?
Speaker 4: Well again, steps, first becoming a coach and so isolating her,
Speaker 4: creating a new family, separating her from her loved ones,
Speaker 4: insisting she break up with her boyfriend, then involving her
Speaker 4: twenty four to seven in the organization, recruiting people, making
Speaker 4: it her life, then moving her to Albany, New York,
Speaker 4: which was the epicenter of the group.
Speaker 3: So slowly but surely the years go by.
Speaker 4: She's living in Albany, She's given up all her possessions
Speaker 4: in LA, she's given up all her friends, and she's
Speaker 4: leading this new life in service with Keith R.
Speaker 2: Nieri.
Speaker 4: And suddenly she's Alison max Slave And you go, what
Speaker 4: the hell happened? And it wasn't until Like, I'm a
Speaker 4: parent of several kids, and really part of the way
Speaker 4: that I parent is that I try and let my
Speaker 4: kids make their own mistakes. I try not to interfere,
Speaker 4: try not to be a helicopter parent, but it you know,
Speaker 4: giving really adhering to giving them the dignity of their
Speaker 4: own process of adulting. But when I found out that
Speaker 4: she was actually in physical dangers, the moment that I like,
Speaker 4: my maternal instincts just went haywire, and I did everything
Speaker 4: that I could to get her out.
Speaker 2: What danger did you see and what danger.
Speaker 4: Did you know that she was in a DEFECTA called
Speaker 4: me up mid April twenty seventeen and said you have
Speaker 4: to save her, and I'm like, uh.
Speaker 3: Okay, from what?
Speaker 4: And she said, well, she's involved in the secretive slave
Speaker 4: Master group that's supposed to be a female leadership program
Speaker 4: within Nexium, but actually it's a recruiting funnel for sex
Speaker 4: for Keith. It's based on a slave master hierarchy, and
Speaker 4: Alison Mack is her master, and she's being forced to
Speaker 4: recruit slaves. She's probably branded, she's on a five hundred
Speaker 4: calorie a day diet, she's sleep depride. She signed a
Speaker 4: lifetime bow of obedience to Keith and to the organization,
Speaker 4: like she just she read off this list of things,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, how does self help turned into sex trafficking?
Speaker 4: How does that even happen? And so the first thing
Speaker 4: that I did was I went to see a specialist.
Speaker 4: I organized in an intervention. I brought her back to
Speaker 4: La pretending it was a birthday. I felt horrible. I'd
Speaker 4: never been duplicitous with my daughter. I mean we have,
Speaker 4: we had such a great relationship. Found out for my daughter.
Speaker 4: At the same time, her hair was falling out. She
Speaker 4: had a period in a year. So I'm getting messages
Speaker 4: from her that she's having physiological problems. I can't tell
Speaker 4: her that I know why because I don't want to
Speaker 4: kind of I don't want to expose my plan to
Speaker 4: bring her back because I was afraid she wouldn't come back.
Speaker 4: And then I fail at the intervention, and I see
Speaker 4: that she's recruiting other young women and I'm able to
Speaker 4: stop them going back to Albany from being branded.
Speaker 3: Thank god.
Speaker 2: So you stopped her like she she saw it, saw
Speaker 2: like she in the intervention. She she saw what was happening.
Speaker 4: No, it quite the opposite. She thought I was crazy
Speaker 4: and overreacting, and that she was doing something good and noble,
Speaker 4: and that branding was character building.
Speaker 3: She was completely brainwashed.
Speaker 5: At what point after the intervention, like, how long after
Speaker 5: that were you finally able to get through to her?
Speaker 3: Okay, a year and two months.
Speaker 2: Wow, So she just left and you didn't talk to her.
Speaker 4: They took her back and they started to well, first
Speaker 4: of all, the hierarchy started to try and use her
Speaker 4: to find ways to sue me and compromise me and
Speaker 4: silence me. They told her that I was suffering from
Speaker 4: Munchausen by proxy disease, that I was a psychopath, that
Speaker 4: everything I was doing was trying So they brainwashed her
Speaker 4: specifically against me, so that I was enemy number one,
Speaker 4: which made it very, very hard because then everything that
Speaker 4: I did when I had to go and expose her
Speaker 4: publicly just deepened the rift and made.
Speaker 3: It harder for her to reconcile with me.
Speaker 2: Does she still have that negative energy towards you? Or
Speaker 2: she is she? You know?
Speaker 3: She opa?
Speaker 2: Hey, now are you guys okay?
Speaker 3: We're more than okay. And I think one of the
Speaker 3: first things.
Speaker 4: That she said to me that I knew meant that
Speaker 4: she was healing after thinking that I was like public
Speaker 4: enemy number one was she told her best friend, my
Speaker 4: mom was willing to have everybody hate her. And I
Speaker 4: knew when she said that that she understood that I
Speaker 4: was willing to go to any lengths to get her back,
Speaker 4: and that was the depth of my love.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, let's take a break.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Kathrin Oxenberger is going to talk
Speaker 1: about signs parents should look for in their kids. Things
Speaker 1: she saw and things you should look for if you've
Speaker 1: got kids and are concerned your kids are going down
Speaker 1: a bad path.
Speaker 2: Lola is a female founded company offering a line of
Speaker 2: organic cotton tampons, pads, and liners. They now offer sex
Speaker 2: products too. Sex by Lola is a line of guynecologists
Speaker 2: approved sexual health and wellness products, lubricated condoms, personal lubricant,
Speaker 2: and cleansing wipes. Design First and Foremost for women has
Speaker 2: built a brand that is committed to creating transparent and
Speaker 2: trustworthy products and encouraging candid conversations about the experiences we
Speaker 2: as women have throughout our entire reproductive lives. Sex by
Speaker 2: Lola is the next step in their mission to become
Speaker 2: the first lifelong brand for women's bodies. The Sex by
Speaker 2: Lola line is available for subscription. You can add to
Speaker 2: your period subscription so everything is conveniently delivered on your
Speaker 2: ideal schedule, whether it's condoms, cleansing wives, or tampons. Lola
Speaker 2: makes your month easier so you're never caught without something
Speaker 2: you need when you need it. I'm a big fan
Speaker 2: of Lola, and I love the convenience of it, so
Speaker 2: for thirty percent off your first month subscription, visit my
Speaker 2: lola dot com and enter Jana thirty. When you subscribe,
Speaker 2: that's my loola dot com and enter Jana thirty for
Speaker 2: thirty percent off your first month subscription my loola dot
Speaker 2: com and entered Jana thirty.
Speaker 5: Do you have any any kind of I guess advice
Speaker 5: for any parents out there that have, you know, these
Speaker 5: young adult children that are kind of going off and
Speaker 5: having their new expert speriences. I don't know, something to
Speaker 5: watch out for that maybe looking back, you might have
Speaker 5: missed or you wish you would have done better. I
Speaker 5: don't know, you know, just anything for parents. You know,
Speaker 5: we're parents, are two young kids, but just something to
Speaker 5: look out for in those later years.
Speaker 3: That's a great question.
Speaker 4: I think if I had known that the prefrontal cortex
Speaker 4: of a young adult doesn't fully develop until they're twenty seven,
Speaker 4: so their ability to make decisions, their cognitive faculties actually
Speaker 4: aren't fully developed, I would probably be more mindful about
Speaker 4: what they got involved in and do more due diligence,
Speaker 4: and I would teach them about predatory tactics, whether it
Speaker 4: be an abusive relationship or a predatory group like this,
Speaker 4: and what to look for and what to avoid and
Speaker 4: a lot of those warning signs are actually like there's
Speaker 4: a roadmap in my book that makes it very helpful
Speaker 4: to understand. Like if we but whether it's an R Kelly,
Speaker 4: you know how these predators operate in plain sight. Once
Speaker 4: you expose their playbook, which is pretty slim, then our
Speaker 4: kids are not going to fall prey in the same way.
Speaker 4: Be it beit a group or be it an individual,
Speaker 4: they kind of work the same way.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, And going off of that, do you think you know?
Speaker 5: Because I feel like, as again we're parents of two
Speaker 5: young kids, you want everything to be like butterflies and rainbows, right,
Speaker 5: especially early on in your experience raising multiple children, what's
Speaker 5: that age that maybe you sit them down and have
Speaker 5: these discussions or look, there's bad people in this world.
Speaker 5: There are predators, there's people, and these are the consequences.
Speaker 5: This stuff actually exists in this world. At what age
Speaker 5: would you consider having those discussions going back again with
Speaker 5: your kids?
Speaker 3: Wow?
Speaker 4: You know that is another great question, And I think
Speaker 4: that's personal choice because I think you start the minute
Speaker 4: that they interface with other people. I was molested at
Speaker 4: age four. I don't know, if it's a personal decision,
Speaker 4: like who your kids are going to be interacting with
Speaker 4: and what you tell them at what age and what
Speaker 4: they can comprehend. So maybe in simple terms when they're younger,
Speaker 4: and then when they're able to think cognitively, which starts
Speaker 4: around the age of like ten to twelve, you can
Speaker 4: you know, it's a really hard conversation because you don't
Speaker 4: want them to be suspicious or cynical, and that's it's
Speaker 4: a very fine line. But the world is not a
Speaker 4: safe place and people don't have your best interest, and
Speaker 4: that's it's tough to break that to your kids.
Speaker 2: Absolutely when you say this sex slaves and slavery, I
Speaker 2: mean it was it just sex trafficking and sex slavery?
Speaker 2: What other kind of what else did that entail?
Speaker 4: Multiple like abuses against women and what it means to
Speaker 4: be a woman, And it was deeply embedded into the curriculum.
Speaker 4: The deeper you got in, the more misogyny was revealed,
Speaker 4: till you have women like Laurence Salzman tell Sarah Edmondson
Speaker 4: the only way a woman can build can build self
Speaker 4: worth is through humiliation. So I would say this was
Speaker 4: a very very dangerous organization because the level of self
Speaker 4: hatred that it was fostering, that women were able to
Speaker 4: then hurt another woman. I mean, they were desensitized to
Speaker 4: the point that violence against women was encouraged.
Speaker 3: That's very frightening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it started not like that. So I'm just
Speaker 2: they just get in and they just totally brainwash you. Wow.
Speaker 4: Well, you have to look at it from two standpoints.
Speaker 4: The epicenter of this cult, the Keith Ranieri, had a
Speaker 4: harm and he was rotating twenty women. This is not
Speaker 4: how they present themselves. This is not what I was
Speaker 4: told when I walked in the door to take a class,
Speaker 4: that really the leader is having sex with twenty women
Speaker 4: and that potentially anybody who walks through these doors is
Speaker 4: a recruit to become a sexual partner for him. You're
Speaker 4: not told that, but that's really what was going on.
Speaker 3: This was all about.
Speaker 4: It is about power control and his self gratification. Everything
Speaker 4: that was designed, the whole program was as a funneling
Speaker 4: system for him.
Speaker 3: That's how sick it was.
Speaker 2: And he's obviously in jail now.
Speaker 3: He is definitely in jail without bail and awaiting sentencing.
Speaker 2: Has he owned up to any of it or is
Speaker 2: he that psychopath that just thinks that what he did
Speaker 2: was fine.
Speaker 4: You want to hear the thing that's so gross. I
Speaker 4: was sitting in court during closing arguments, and I know
Speaker 4: that he made his chief counsel say this to the jury.
Speaker 4: He was basically saying that the first witness, this woman Sylvie,
Speaker 4: who had accused him of rape, Basically he's like, well,
Speaker 4: Keith gave her her first orgasm. And I'm sitting there going, Okay,
Speaker 4: wait a minute, are you really trying to say that
Speaker 4: he's a good guy because.
Speaker 2: Because he gave him gave her an Jesus.
Speaker 4: So that's the level of self awareness that this to me,
Speaker 4: He's like he's a lost cause. And if he ever
Speaker 4: comes out of jail, I mean, he's a danger to society,
Speaker 4: this guy.
Speaker 2: M hm. So you have your book came out last year.
Speaker 4: Right, hardback came out last August, and then the paperback
Speaker 4: came out this July with a with an extended chapter
Speaker 4: about the trial and reconciling, reconciling with my.
Speaker 2: Daughter, and it's called Captive, a mother's Crusade to save
Speaker 2: her daughter from a terrifying cult. It's available now, and
Speaker 2: you're actually going to be on the each or Hollywood Story.
Speaker 4: Two yep, I think that's coming out this Saturday.
Speaker 2: Has it been hard for you to be in the
Speaker 2: limelight in this way? Like, I'm sure it wasn't what
Speaker 2: you thought whatever happened, So why did you Why did
Speaker 2: you want to write the book? Why did you want
Speaker 2: to come out and do the you know the e story?
Speaker 2: And is it to raise awareness or is it? Is
Speaker 2: it a coping mechanism too?
Speaker 4: Originally I wrote the book because I was afraid the
Speaker 4: government was going to drop the bull because people had
Speaker 4: brought evidence for decades and nothing had ever happened. So
Speaker 4: I thought, I what if my book is the only
Speaker 4: resource that collects all the information to expose Keithriniery and
Speaker 4: these crimes. That was ultimately my first reason for doing it,
Speaker 4: because he hadn't been arrested when I was writing my book,
Speaker 4: and as I'm writing, the story's unfolding, so it was
Speaker 4: happening in real time. Then I wrote it for India.
Speaker 4: I wrote it for my daughter because I figured if
Speaker 4: she read it, she would wake up, and that didn't
Speaker 4: It helped her wake up. And then you know, after that,
Speaker 4: it's to help other family members who are going through
Speaker 4: or what I went through. I hope nobody goes through
Speaker 4: what I went through and to prevent it from happening.
Speaker 4: And yes, to raise awareness because I think these these
Speaker 4: predators hide in plain sight, and the more you shine
Speaker 4: a light on their tactics, the easier it is, the
Speaker 4: safer we are.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, And do you I know again just relating back
Speaker 5: to us having kids and our daughter, like she doesn't
Speaker 5: complete sentences as well as maybe some of her classmates, right,
Speaker 5: and so Jana and I put it on ourselves and
Speaker 5: like we feel guilt where we're like, are we not
Speaker 5: doing enough? Are we not doing something right? Where she's
Speaker 5: a little behind. Going through what you've been through with India,
Speaker 5: did you have to overcome those feelings of guilt? Did
Speaker 5: you put a lot on yourself initially? Like throughout all
Speaker 5: this process.
Speaker 4: My personality is immediately yes, I felt guilt that I
Speaker 4: had introduced her to this program, but I'm the way
Speaker 4: that I deal with that is that I'm I find
Speaker 4: actionable ways to counteract that. So I went full force
Speaker 4: into getting around. I felt responsible for getting around. I
Speaker 4: felt responsible forgetting her out, And it's about being accountable
Speaker 4: as a parent, Like you're not can't be blamed for everything.
Speaker 3: But wherever you can help, you do.
Speaker 2: How is India, you know, dealt with the healing process
Speaker 2: through all.
Speaker 4: This, It's been intensive, I think for anybody. This is
Speaker 4: the thing that people don't understand. You can't leave a
Speaker 4: cult and move forward. You're still trapped, like it's in
Speaker 4: your head. So they've changed the way you think. You're
Speaker 4: still under the influence of the doctrine. So it takes
Speaker 4: a lot of work to unravel what was done to
Speaker 4: you and to reclaim your ability to think critically.
Speaker 2: And that is a process and it's just been lots
Speaker 2: of therapy. What was one thing that helped her the most?
Speaker 4: Do you think, Gosh, you'd have to ask her that,
Speaker 4: I mean, because I'd like to think it, you know,
Speaker 4: it was me, but I don't think it was.
Speaker 3: I think it was a lot of things.
Speaker 4: She she met a lot of people who gave her
Speaker 4: a different perspective, and that perspective sort of shatted the
Speaker 4: cult persona like a watching her blossom was really beautiful
Speaker 4: and coming back to herself, well, I.
Speaker 2: Mean, I just appreciate you coming on here and sharing
Speaker 2: the story and for being vulnerable, and you know, you're
Speaker 2: obviously your words and your story are going to help
Speaker 2: a lot of people, and hopefully, you know, I hope
Speaker 2: everyone gets your book too, because I mean, it's it's
Speaker 2: unfortunately not just a fascinating made up story. You know,
Speaker 2: it's real and something that you guys have been through
Speaker 2: and others are probably going through right now. So hopefully
Speaker 2: this will be the first you know, look into it
Speaker 2: and then also the you know, the help to get out.
Speaker 2: So we appreciate you.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so.
Speaker 5: Much, both, Thank you Catherine, and listeners, don't forget to
Speaker 5: watch the true Hollywood story on this Thanks Catherine. Thanks
Speaker 5: you guys.
Speaker 3: Take care.
Speaker 2: Halloween is on the way, which means it's time to
Speaker 2: break out the rubber spiders, fake cowboebs, and jack lanterns.
Speaker 2: But if you've got a family, you might be dealing
Speaker 2: with something a little scary right now. Shopping for life insurance.
Speaker 2: If the idea of looking for life insurance intimidates you,
Speaker 2: try policygenius dot com. Policygenius is the easy way to
Speaker 2: shop for life insurance online. In minutes, you can compare
Speaker 2: quotes from top insurers to find your best price. Once
Speaker 2: you apply, the policy Genius team will handle all the paperwork.
Speaker 2: And red tape, and policy Genius doesn't just make life
Speaker 2: insurance easy. They can help also with finding the right
Speaker 2: home insurance, auto insurance, and disability insurance. This October, take
Speaker 2: this scariness out of buying life insurance with Policygenius. Go
Speaker 2: to policygenius dot com get quotes and applying minutes. You
Speaker 2: can do the whole thing on your phone right now.
Speaker 2: Policy Genius the easy way to compare and buy life insurance.
Speaker 2: What's up, guys?
Speaker 5: What's happening?
Speaker 2: Mark Easton? Are you there?
Speaker 1: I'm here. Easton is dealing with other podcast as we speak.
Speaker 1: He's running around this building like.
Speaker 5: Crazy awesome, Go team Go. How are you guys living
Speaker 5: the dream? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Every day day we're hustling.
Speaker 1: When we last left, we had a discussion about Mike's
Speaker 1: trip to Mount Kilimanjaro. Is there but any further discussion
Speaker 1: on that?
Speaker 5: No, we got other stuff more at the forefront that
Speaker 5: we're working on. That's okay.
Speaker 1: Well then I'll be quiet and let you guys go.
Speaker 5: Do you have anything, honey?
Speaker 2: Nope, I really don't want to be here right now,
Speaker 2: so I've.
Speaker 1: Kind of gotten that vibe.
Speaker 5: Actually, we wear our hearts on our sleeves. Mark what
Speaker 5: can we say. It's a blessing. It's a blessing and
Speaker 5: a curse.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you want to talk about it, be
Speaker 2: my guess, Michael.
Speaker 5: You know what, here's the situation, and this is I mean,
Speaker 5: I'll tell you, well, we give these listeners some good stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's real good. My heart on the floor. It's
Speaker 2: really good.
Speaker 5: I'm not saying that.
Speaker 2: I'm just really no, I know, it's just really good stuff.
Speaker 5: You really want to talk about this, I mean, go
Speaker 5: for it.
Speaker 2: I already got all that out there. I might as
Speaker 2: well just keep it on a roll.
Speaker 5: And I'm sure people deal with this. So all right,
Speaker 5: here's I'll give the the gist of it. Oh no,
Speaker 5: let me start on Saturday. On Saturday, we had some
Speaker 5: friends in town about to go out for a date night.
Speaker 5: I received this text message from this number I don't recognize.
Speaker 5: Open it up. It's a picture of a female and like.
Speaker 2: A message or large bibs top off.
Speaker 3: Mm hm.
Speaker 5: Message from a female with weird writing under me saying oh,
Speaker 5: let's try to meet up this time or something like that.
Speaker 5: I don't.
Speaker 2: I mean, you brought it up.
Speaker 1: So this was the wrong number. This was an old situation.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it wasn't anybody I knew. Oh, and so
Speaker 5: I see it and I'm like, okay, I know the
Speaker 5: right thing to do is to go get Janna, pull
Speaker 5: her aside, and say, hey, I receive this. I don't
Speaker 5: know what the hell it is, but I just need
Speaker 5: to let you know because something like this has happened.
Speaker 5: Happened like a year ago when when we were in
Speaker 5: la very similar situation, nearly identical, and I brought it
Speaker 5: to Jana and I said exactly pretty much that hey,
Speaker 5: I just got this. I don't know what the hell
Speaker 5: it is, but I just needed to bring it to you.
Speaker 5: And she handled it well, she really did. And this
Speaker 5: situation Saturday, even though I consciously had that dialogue with
Speaker 5: myself saying I know what I need to do here,
Speaker 5: I was terrified to do so I started kind of
Speaker 5: rationalizing in my head. I'm like, man, we're about to
Speaker 5: go out to a date night with like two other couples.
Speaker 5: I was like, in the other end, on the other side,
Speaker 5: I'm like, we've Jan and I have really had a
Speaker 5: good run recently, like not a lot of past stuff
Speaker 5: coming up. We've been handling situations pretty well, handling triggers
Speaker 5: pretty well, talking things out where it's like it really
Speaker 5: felt like we were building a lot of forward momentum,
Speaker 5: and really majority of our conflicts were around day to
Speaker 5: day marital issues, and so the part of me that
Speaker 5: won in this situation was like, this is the past
Speaker 5: coming back up. I don't want any part of this.
Speaker 5: This is not me. Like, get out of here and
Speaker 5: delete block done all with the intention in Gene will
Speaker 5: chime in after I'm done talking definitely about this is
Speaker 5: I was like, look, I need I don't want to
Speaker 5: bring this up now. I don' want any part of
Speaker 5: it right now. I felt like a hot potato. I
Speaker 5: didn't even want it in my text messages. Get rid
Speaker 5: of it. I talked to my sponsor usually like every
Speaker 5: Monday morning, because I know where he's going, I know
Speaker 5: where he'll be and I can get a hold of him.
Speaker 5: I want to talk to him and go from there
Speaker 5: with all the intention of bringing to Jenna letting an
Speaker 5: the situation, telling her why I deleted it, which was
Speaker 5: because I just didn't want any part of it, none
Speaker 5: of it. And so then yesterday I don't know what
Speaker 5: inspired Janna, but she looked she saw my Apple watch
Speaker 5: and saw the text message on there, so when she
Speaker 5: compared to my phone, she thought I was just being
Speaker 5: sneaky and deleting it. And I understand, and I truly
Speaker 5: am empathetic to the fact that her seeing something that
Speaker 5: was deleted that wasn't brought to her attention by me
Speaker 5: in a healthy.
Speaker 2: Way, because it's a boundary.
Speaker 5: Is extremely triggering. And yeah, it's a boundary to not
Speaker 5: delete things something that we have mutually discussed and agreed on.
Speaker 5: So a lot of stuff comes up for her, a
Speaker 5: lot of stuff comes up for me, and it's we
Speaker 5: had a couple of session about it this morning, and
Speaker 5: it's just it's one of those things that's just different
Speaker 5: cult to navigate. The only thing I can think of
Speaker 5: and how this person even had my number was almost
Speaker 5: eighteen months ago when I had my relapse and I
Speaker 5: was reaching out to numbers of a plethora of numbers,
Speaker 5: and which again, which is how this same situation happened
Speaker 5: like a year ago. And so it's just it just
Speaker 5: sucks because it's it's just as soon as we feel
Speaker 5: like we're hitting a good, you know, patch, it's just
Speaker 5: like my past behaviors, my past actions come back to
Speaker 5: haunt me. And then because I didn't handle it in
Speaker 5: the way I know I had to, it made it
Speaker 5: even worse.
Speaker 1: So the thinking was, we're going for a date and night,
Speaker 1: it's going to be great. Things have been so good
Speaker 1: with us lately. I don't want to trigger her in
Speaker 1: any way.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I was just like, this is so not me.
Speaker 5: I just don't want any part of this right now.
Speaker 5: I don't want or period. I don't want this life.
Speaker 5: This isn't the life that I'm living now.
Speaker 1: It's a part of your life you want to bury,
Speaker 1: and it's rearing it's ugly head and you're just like,
Speaker 1: get away, get away, get away.
Speaker 5: Yes, which is understandable, but not what Jane and I
Speaker 5: agreed on on how to discuss these things and handle
Speaker 5: these things. And it's beyond hurtful to see Gianna hurt
Speaker 5: and upset and feel the things that she feels because
Speaker 5: of the things that I've done in the past.
Speaker 1: And Jenny, you regularly go through texts no I.
Speaker 2: Don't, I haven't. Yeah, we'd gotten to a fight that
Speaker 2: morning or the afternoon or whatever, and I just I
Speaker 2: don't know. I saw a little watch thing on the
Speaker 2: counter in the bathroom and I just I always have
Speaker 2: this like really weird intuition. Every time I've had that intuition,
Speaker 2: it tells me to look and I always find something.
Speaker 2: And when I looked, I was like, god, damn it,
Speaker 2: I saw it and I just immediately started my heart
Speaker 2: just fell. I was like, it's here. It's happened again.
Speaker 2: I'm such a freaking idiot. And I immediately called my
Speaker 2: best friend and I just was like shaking, crying outside
Speaker 2: and then I texted the number where I called the number,
Speaker 2: and then I texted it and it was like please.
Speaker 2: You know. It's like it said like sorry, Hun, can't can't,
Speaker 2: can't talk on the phone, like do you want me
Speaker 2: to come over? And I was just like you texted
Speaker 2: my husband. I would love to know your correspondence, like
Speaker 2: please from one one woman to another. And I'm just
Speaker 2: like as I'm typing this, I was like this is
Speaker 2: literally like how is this happening again? And then like
Speaker 2: the messages got like really weird then like it sent
Speaker 2: me the same message that it sent Mike, and so
Speaker 2: that it started to think, Okay, maybe this is like
Speaker 2: one of those like computer people. Yeah, like abot like
Speaker 2: computer because it was like what kind of boobs do
Speaker 2: you like? And I'm like, Okay, this isn't a real person.
Speaker 2: So then I'm like, yeah, they're not even reading it.
Speaker 2: They're just like I'm coming to Nashville, like let's hook up.
Speaker 2: And I'm just like okay. So then I like got
Speaker 2: to that point. So I'm like, Okay, so maybe he
Speaker 2: hasn't this is an actual person, but maybe he like
Speaker 2: got on a site because you know, usually when you
Speaker 2: sometimes go to sites, those things can get on your
Speaker 2: phone and then then you're part of it, like that
Speaker 2: spam thing. So but I'm like, how would he get
Speaker 2: on porn sites because he's got comented eyes on his
Speaker 2: things to not have the ability to go to those places.
Speaker 2: And so then I called my sponsor.
Speaker 6: Or.
Speaker 2: She's kind of my sponsor. It's weird. She's she's in
Speaker 2: the program and she's a sex addict, and so I
Speaker 2: called her and I just was talking this through and
Speaker 2: and the part is is it's the deleting. It's the
Speaker 2: because I'm like, if he didn't delete it, like I
Speaker 2: like he said, Mike said it like he came to
Speaker 2: me before and I was totally fine with I wasn't
Speaker 2: fine with it, but I was like, Okay, this sucks,
Speaker 2: but thanks for bringing it to me. It's the the
Speaker 2: sneakiness of like feeling like he deleted it because I'm like,
Speaker 2: I like he saw before. I didn't freak out. I
Speaker 2: could understand if maybe I freaked out before and through
Speaker 2: a fit, but I didn't. I was okay with it
Speaker 2: as okay as I was. So the part that like
Speaker 2: scared my sponsor was that you know that he deleted
Speaker 2: it and withheld information, especially since that's the boundary and
Speaker 2: you know, and so they're like, okay, like you know
Speaker 2: this isn't the smoking gun. What you know? Do you
Speaker 2: hire a PI? And I'm just like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: like my whole my whole world is about to just
Speaker 2: fucking crumble again. And I'm like, and I just started.
Speaker 2: I'm just like how like this I know how, but
Speaker 2: I just so it's just been to feel I'm just
Speaker 2: sick of finding things. I feel like I'm constantly and
Speaker 2: it's like some of then someone says, well, don't look,
Speaker 2: but then it's hard not to look when I have
Speaker 2: that intuition to look.
Speaker 1: And from your standpoint, the coincidence of the one time
Speaker 1: you look, yeah, you find something that's got to be tough, but.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and it's every time. And then it's like
Speaker 2: the hard thing too is a lot of the times
Speaker 2: when I do find something, he'll say, no, I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: it was just I don't know. But then there's always
Speaker 2: something after that. And that's where I'm like, Okay, now
Speaker 2: I'm like living in the lava again. When am I
Speaker 2: gonna get completely covered by it? Because that's next And
Speaker 2: that's the part that's like, that's the part that's like,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to live this kind of
Speaker 2: life to know when the like we just moved into
Speaker 2: this beautiful house and we had a second kid, like
Speaker 2: we've fought so hard, Like why is this happening again?
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm so scared of because it's it's
Speaker 2: not whether he ends up meeting up with someone or not.
Speaker 2: I mean that last relapse, he almost did and I
Speaker 2: was gonna sign the papers. So it's like he gets
Speaker 2: even close to the fire and I'm gone, it's like
Speaker 2: does And I'm like does he not know that and
Speaker 2: realize that and love our family enough? And I know
Speaker 2: it's not a bar our family, it's not about me,
Speaker 2: but that's just where but unfortunately we met or fortunately
Speaker 2: we had a couple's well. So last night I just
Speaker 2: was like, get out of the room, you know, out
Speaker 2: And this morning we had the obviously the couples therapists
Speaker 2: and it was a new therapist. The poor guy just
Speaker 2: got out of majorly baptized by fire because but you know,
Speaker 2: and he just was like, you know, gave Mike the
Speaker 2: opportunity to come forward and know that I'm going to
Speaker 2: start researching and looking into things on the phone bill
Speaker 2: and just he's like, can you try not to go
Speaker 2: all the way down the rabbit hole? You know, He's like,
Speaker 2: do you need to look for a couple of weeks
Speaker 2: and see? And that's the hard part because now I
Speaker 2: have to go, Okay, was he on an inappropriate side
Speaker 2: that I don't know about? Was this just a fluke?
Speaker 2: Is he really? You know, I'm like, I love you, Mike,
Speaker 2: but like you're a good liar, Like you pass the
Speaker 2: lie at doctor test, you know what I mean. Lying.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, you're you're charming as how people believe
Speaker 2: you like you've lied to like I mean I've seen
Speaker 2: you like look me in the eye and tell me
Speaker 2: that what your truth was. But it wasn't your truth? Yeah,
Speaker 2: So it's like I'm kind of cat and like this weird,
Speaker 2: Like what do I believe?
Speaker 6: How?
Speaker 2: Was it just a fluke? I don't know. And that's
Speaker 2: where I'm just like I kind of just feel like
Speaker 2: I'm like I've given enough signs to the freaking universe.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, do I do I keep asking for signs?
Speaker 2: Or are these my signs? But like you can get
Speaker 2: out of dodge. Sorry, this is just really fresh.
Speaker 7: Don't be sorry, oh.
Speaker 2: Amy, of course you don't be sorry at the show.
Speaker 7: No, But I also am like here with tears in
Speaker 7: my eyes and I the thing that's is you're not
Speaker 7: looking at each other right now, and you're not speaking
Speaker 7: to each other, and your body language is really tough
Speaker 7: right now, and you're talking about him but he's right
Speaker 7: next to you.
Speaker 2: Because I'm just not ready to look at me because
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm looking at.
Speaker 7: Okay, that's okay, what would help you?
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's a thing I can't There's nothing
Speaker 2: that I'm like, I don't I don't know, but I
Speaker 2: just I'm like, why can't you Just like I didn't
Speaker 2: give you a reason to not tell me the truth
Speaker 2: or to not just be like, hey, this came up,
Speaker 2: Like I just need like in moments like that, because
Speaker 2: I always ask, I'm like, hey, is anything inappropriate? Or
Speaker 2: I give him then opportunity to come to have a
Speaker 2: safe place, and I like, I want those moments so bad.
Speaker 2: I want to see that he's working his recovery and
Speaker 2: working the boundaries like that stuff is so huge for me,
Speaker 2: which is why I didn't freak out the last time
Speaker 2: when he came to me.
Speaker 7: Well, Michael, what scares you? What scares you? To tell her?
Speaker 5: And that's just it's it's scary period. I understand because
Speaker 5: there's so much shame because in my mind, yes, even
Speaker 5: though I know the right thing to do, it's still
Speaker 5: a reminder of the things that I've done. And so
Speaker 5: there's just there's so much pain. There's so much fear
Speaker 5: behind that that you had a part of me. It's
Speaker 5: just like, I don't want her to have to think
Speaker 5: of that stuff.
Speaker 7: What about forgiving yourself first, Mike and trying every day
Speaker 7: because you have so much pain, And then because of that,
Speaker 7: it is all over Jana and she has to carry
Speaker 7: so much because you won't forgive yourself. She can't forgive
Speaker 7: you until you forgive yourself.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've told him I forgive him.
Speaker 7: I know you have. And Mike, you are a good person.
Speaker 7: You are you both are so beautiful and strong and open,
Speaker 7: and I just don't know that you guys know it.
Speaker 7: So Janna, I read this article. It's really interesting you
Speaker 7: bring this up about the need to know versus the
Speaker 7: fear of knowing, And I think that that's something that
Speaker 7: you should think about and talk to your sponsor therapist
Speaker 7: about because it seems that that's what you grapple with.
Speaker 7: You need to know, but you're afraid to know, and
Speaker 7: that becomes a painful conflict for someone and neither is
Speaker 7: necessarily I.
Speaker 2: Need to know for safety, That's the thing, Like, that's
Speaker 2: kind of what I've always when something comes up, because
Speaker 2: I want to know that he's because it is hard
Speaker 2: for him to tell the truth. It has been in
Speaker 2: the past. So it's like to know that I'm safe
Speaker 2: in this marriage and to know that he's not acting
Speaker 2: out like those are the things, like those land minds,
Speaker 2: that land minds that he gets for me to be
Speaker 2: able to see and to know that he's doing what
Speaker 2: he's you know what people have told him and how
Speaker 2: to you know, how to tell me? And it's like
Speaker 2: and with me being empathetic and sitting in it and
Speaker 2: knowing what he's doing, like that's that, It's like, it's
Speaker 2: it's so helpful. It shows me that he's on the
Speaker 2: right path. Security And yeah, it gives me security is
Speaker 2: telling me the truth and not just deleting things. Like
Speaker 2: the deleting things just I mean, it just whether it's
Speaker 2: it was a fluke text sends me right back to
Speaker 2: him deleting all the messages that he did with his affairs.
Speaker 7: I understand that. I understand that.
Speaker 2: So it's just it's heavy because I'm like and now
Speaker 2: I just I don't know what I.
Speaker 7: Don't know, Well, you feel out of control?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I feel like I'm just like my
Speaker 2: anxiety level is just like through the roof.
Speaker 7: And did the therapist this morning have any input on
Speaker 7: that about what to do now?
Speaker 5: Uh, to take the space we need and to rely
Speaker 5: on what we need to rely on in order to
Speaker 5: take care of ourselves.
Speaker 7: Mm hmm, it makes sense.
Speaker 6: I know.
Speaker 7: I feel like Janna has to find the security in herself.
Speaker 2: That's the thing. Like I'm when you know, when I
Speaker 2: got upset last night, like staring at my house outside
Speaker 2: in our driveway. It was I'm I'm secure with me,
Speaker 2: but like our relationship and I thought we were. It's
Speaker 2: just I felt like it was like a slap in
Speaker 2: the face. So I'm not secure in his recovery. But
Speaker 2: it's not my recovery, that's the thing. So it's it's
Speaker 2: that's the the that's the the hard part about living
Speaker 2: with an addict. Today. I'm not secure. A few days ago,
Speaker 2: I elsecure.
Speaker 7: I'm trying to just process everything. It's it's really complicated.
Speaker 5: It is, and it's it is, but it's not, you know,
Speaker 5: And that's that's honestly, it's that's part of the weight
Speaker 5: and the frustration and the pain of it all because
Speaker 5: when you look at it, if you put it down
Speaker 5: on paper, it's very simplistic. Just all I had to
Speaker 5: do was come to her and say, hey, this happened.
Speaker 7: So what is your answer why you didn't?
Speaker 5: First of all, for me, feeling safe in telling the
Speaker 5: truth is something that goes back since I was young,
Speaker 5: Like I have fear around even being honest because of
Speaker 5: how it was received in my upbringing. So that's a
Speaker 5: very big traumatic trigger. For me and has definitely been
Speaker 5: my biggest hurdle in living with integrity and being completely
Speaker 5: honest and transparent and in everything in all accounts, because
Speaker 5: I want to run so far away from that life
Speaker 5: of getting that kind of text message of being reminded
Speaker 5: of the piece of shit I used to be. That
Speaker 5: it's just it's that shame hit, that kick in the dick,
Speaker 5: and I just selfishly I didn't want any part of it.
Speaker 5: And that's the part that's unfair because I took that
Speaker 5: opportunity away from myself and from Jana because I wanted
Speaker 5: to spare myself and her. But I feel like it
Speaker 5: was more of a selfish decision because I was scared.
Speaker 7: So when I hear you call yourself a piece of
Speaker 7: used to be, it's you weren't.
Speaker 5: But that's but that's it. That's how That's how I feel,
Speaker 5: That's how I felt. That's part of may when you.
Speaker 7: Work on that part and forgiving yourself and knowing, then
Speaker 7: you will trust Jana. Janna is fiercely loyal to you, Michael,
Speaker 7: and you need to be willing to share with her
Speaker 7: the worst parts of you.
Speaker 5: She will not leave.
Speaker 7: Well, yes, but if you would have told her, and
Speaker 7: you are not a piece of Mike.
Speaker 2: You are not.
Speaker 5: I never learned how to trust the truth that trauma.
Speaker 7: But it's not on her. She's shown you so much loyalty.
Speaker 7: But I also want Jane to when she hears you
Speaker 7: call yourself a piece of it breaks my heart. It
Speaker 7: must gut her. M or a good guy right right,
Speaker 7: But you are a good guy. I hate hearing you
Speaker 7: say that about yourself, and I would feel the same
Speaker 7: way if Janna criticize herself that way.
Speaker 5: I'm just sorry.
Speaker 7: You can say that, say it to her.
Speaker 6: I am sorry I didn't handle it the way that
Speaker 6: we agreed upon and handle it the right way for myself,
Speaker 6: for you, and for both of us. I'm sorry that
Speaker 6: the damage that something like again that seems so simplistic
Speaker 6: can cause.
Speaker 3: I hear you.
Speaker 2: I just am having a hard time with you saying
Speaker 2: that you were gonna tell me, because it's like you
Speaker 2: know't how many times I've heard it, But I was
Speaker 2: gonna tell you, absolutely, But so I'm like, you deleted it,
Speaker 2: like just own that you weren't gonna say you don't
Speaker 2: want any part of it, that you just deleted it.
Speaker 2: I don't I just the saying that you were gonna
Speaker 2: tell me about it is the part that I'm just like,
Speaker 2: I do not buy And I don't blame you for
Speaker 2: not wanting to tell me, not one in that life.
Speaker 2: I don't. But I'm like, I have a heart because
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, at times I've heard you say,
Speaker 2: but I'm gonna I was gonna tell you about it.
Speaker 2: So after twenty times of finding things, I don't believe
Speaker 2: that line anymore. I believe you deleting it and just
Speaker 2: being like I don't want this life. I do believe that,
Speaker 2: and you Step, I get that. I totally would get that.
Speaker 2: But the fact that you're trying to hide behind saying
Speaker 2: but you were gonna tell me, I don't get will
Speaker 2: I will not believe you on that. I just don't.
Speaker 7: And I can't really hear her, really hear her, because
Speaker 7: she's making a really really clear point there, and I understand.
Speaker 2: It, like I'm totally giving you the opportunity to be like,
Speaker 2: you're right, and I you know, even though I said
Speaker 2: I was going to tell you you're right, that is
Speaker 2: a lie. Maybe my intentions sure were, but I probably wasn't.
Speaker 2: That would make more sense to me.
Speaker 5: That that I can agree with before when I hear
Speaker 5: you before, when we talked about it, it seemed black
Speaker 5: and white, and I I didn't want to like challenge
Speaker 5: my own integrity of just outright admitting that I wouldn't.
Speaker 5: My intention was absolutely to bring it up because I
Speaker 5: know that was the right thing to do with it.
Speaker 2: You think in your heart of hearts you were going
Speaker 2: to bring it up.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Now that's an honest answer. I'm like that. I can
Speaker 2: actually like the question.
Speaker 5: My intention and plan was to but like you said,
Speaker 5: like you just asked, I don't know.
Speaker 7: Do you know why you lied just now saying when
Speaker 7: you say I was going to tell you and jam At,
Speaker 7: that's because I doesn't believe.
Speaker 5: Because I believe that I do, because of the work
Speaker 5: that I've been doing, the work that I am trying
Speaker 5: to do, I like to believe that I would default
Speaker 5: and do the right thing. I don't think there's any answer. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that.
Speaker 2: No, that's a fair answer, or are you really going
Speaker 2: to call perhaps on Monday?
Speaker 5: That was my intention? Absolutely, that was that was my intention. Again,
Speaker 5: but to answer it, I like to think so that
Speaker 5: was my intention, But I don't know. I don't know
Speaker 5: if I would have woken up this morning and followed through,
Speaker 5: I don't.
Speaker 2: Know, And it wouldn't have bothered you at all. It
Speaker 2: would just it's out of sided and mind you just
Speaker 2: deleted it and whatever.
Speaker 5: I can't speak for the situation. I can't go through
Speaker 5: and say if this would have happened, if that would hapen.
Speaker 5: All I know is that when I deleted it is
Speaker 5: because I didn't want any part of it. Now, this
Speaker 5: is where I feel like you're trying to trap me
Speaker 5: into saying something. See I told you this, I told you.
Speaker 2: No, it's just because it's that's you wouldn't have told me.
Speaker 2: And I know that. So I just really want to
Speaker 2: be done. I'm closing off guys. Sorry, No, that's okay.
Speaker 7: I don't want I want you guys to take a breath.
Speaker 7: I'm a little nervous about you guys, just like.
Speaker 2: No, it's fad. We got our kids, so we'll just
Speaker 2: go our separate ways and be fine.
Speaker 7: What can we do for you, both of you? Like
Speaker 7: if I was as brave as both of you to
Speaker 7: tell you the ways that I understand what both of
Speaker 7: you are saying, Like It's really important because so many
Speaker 7: people can relate, even if it's a different example. It's
Speaker 7: really powerful. Like I feel truly for both of you
Speaker 7: right now, truly hope and I hear you both and
Speaker 7: I believe you.
Speaker 5: I hope in next week when people listen to this
Speaker 5: that they understand it's this is real. And that's why
Speaker 5: we share is because we know that there's other people
Speaker 5: out there going through either the exact same situation or
Speaker 5: like you said, amy different topic but similar, similar details.
Speaker 7: And I under stand to make it go away, make
Speaker 7: it go away, And I understand so much of what
Speaker 7: Janna feels so much. That's why it's like there's no
Speaker 7: answer because you're it's I get it, and you do
Speaker 7: need time. We love you guys so much.
Speaker 2: Let me bite
Speaker 6: H