WEBVTT - "I Really Don't Want to Be Here Right Now" 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.960 Wind Down with Jana Kramer and Michael Cosson and I 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.320 Heart Radio and People's Choice Award nominated podcast. 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:15.160 Okay, so I'm really excited because we have Katherine Oxenberg 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:23.200 in studio. An Okay, Catherine, I it's you have a 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:27.000 fascinating story. How before I jump into it? Do you 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:28.040 know Sarah Edmondson? 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:29.600 I do? 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:35.120 Yeah, Okay, So we did a movie together about Gosh. 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:37.520 It was a year and a half ago, No, two 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:42.120 years ago. It's two years ago, and it's it's so 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.640 weird now thinking back to our conversation because I I 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:51.040 remember her saying some kind of weird, weird, weird things, 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:54.920 but it was it was off. And then all of 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.320 a sudden, I saw her on Dateline and I was like, 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.800 oh my god. I did a Hallmark movie with her, 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:04.399 a Christmas movie. Yeah, And so I instagrammed her and 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:06.640 I was just like, hey, because I know that she 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.039 you know, she talked all about being in this Nexium 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.640 cult and she has you know, the book, her book 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:13.360 that just came out, and so I just didn't know 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:15.720 how big or small that world was. And if you 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.759 knew of her, or you know, if because your daughter 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:22.160 was the one that was in the Nexium Cults. Correct, 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:22.920 that is correct. 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.440 Yeah, I definitely met Sarah through Nexium when it was 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.200 called Executive Success Program, which was the consumer facing company 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.560 that she was a coach for. And so yeah, in 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:38.400 the beginning, she was a big recruiter and I didn't 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:40.360 really have anything to do with the organization. I stopped 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.720 taking classes probably in twenty thirteen, but my daughter stated 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.040 and she remained a coach and became very involved. And 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:52.279 Sarah was quite high up and as far as owning 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.000 a center in Vancouver and being responsible for bringing in 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.960 I don't know, maybe thousands of people, but well, and that's. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.240 Kind of what I was like. I felt like she 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:02.600 was trying to bring me into something. So I remember 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:06.120 being like it was just very strange, and I was like, no, 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.720 I'm not really like I'm good, you know. But then 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:12.480 I was just like, oh my gosh, it's all connected. Wow. 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:16.080 Yeah, she's very charismatic. She's a really so sweet, a 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.320 durable person, and I can see why she was a 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.760 great recruiter, and I can see why she's a great 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:25.720 whistleblower too. She is the same passion and she's the 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.760 one who when I first was told about what was 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.400 really going on, which would have been April twenty seventeen, 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.840 and that my daughter had probably been branded. I met 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.800 with Sarah and she showed me her brand and on 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.160 her butt right, No, it's not on her butt, it's 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:41.120 like on. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:42.040 Her pelvic area. 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:43.200 Pelvic area that's. 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:45.919 In the front and hers today is the only brand 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:48.560 that I've actually seen. But she and I were in 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.519 the first New York Times article that broke the story 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:54.720 originally and got the attention of the government. And then 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.120 I went ballistic on a war path with from one 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:00.000 media outlet to the other until. 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:03.000 Okay, so let's just start over then. So okay, well, 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:07.000 now that we get let's start from the beginning. So you, 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.680 you and your daughter went to this class. I'll let 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:12.600 you kind of started off. How did it start? 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.960 Innocently? It was a self help leadership program. My daughter 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.360 was about started business. Sarah Edmondson was one of the 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.760 coaches in that first class. 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:24.079 I'd done a lot of self help. 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.520 It didn't seem particularly original. My daughter loved it from 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:30.520 the beginning. I think what hooked me a little bit 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:35.120 was they did these emotional processes that to unhook reactivity 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.360 or what they considered you know any limitations that you have, 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.920 and what's actually happening is they're unhooking your gut and 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.960 they're just starting to dismantle your personality. But it feels good, 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.880 and a lot of these large group awareness trainings use 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.760 very similar techniques. I think that probably Keith Ranieri, although 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:55.400 he says his material was proprietary and you'd sign an NDA, 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.480 I think most of it was plagiarized from other of 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:02.800 these well known trainings, whether it be ste or Landmark 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.360 or Scientology. I think that he stole a lot of stuff. 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:11.640 So not you know, but my daughter got very involved 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:15.640 and there was a huge emphasis on recruitment and they 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:17.160 were making a lot of money off people. 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:21.080 At one point, Catherine, did you kind of read between 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:23.919 the lines and realize this isn't exactly what we signed 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.360 up for and get yourself out? And then like, why 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.479 was there such a discrepancy in time between when you 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:31.880 got yourself out and then getting your daughter India out. 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.520 You know, it's an interesting thing that you say getting 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.560 myself out. I never really considered myself in because I 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.920 just took classes and there was a huge difference between 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:46.280 somebody who was taking the occasional class versus somebody who 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.359 signed up for the Coach Path, which Sarah was a coach, 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.360 and those people were taking this program seriously, and they 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:55.520 are the ones that they considered to be really dedicated 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.400 to improving humanity. Like there was a big emphas on 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:06.160 the Doctrine and on Keith Ranieriy, who they called the Vanguard. 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:11.200 So I never really got in. I just took classes 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:12.799 and then I'm like, you know what, this is weird. 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.280 But the reason I wrote a book, which came out 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.440 actually last year, was because those warning signs. If I'd 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.400 recognized that they were dangerous versus just thinking, okay, so 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:27.279 these are quirky people, I would have run away. I 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:29.839 would have never exposed my daughter to anything as dangerous 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.719 as this. It's just that I was naive. I didn't 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.159 really understand how these groups work, and I didn't understand 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.440 the process of indoctrination and how easy it is to 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:40.440 kind of hijack somebody's mind without. 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:40.880 You being aware. 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:42.800 So was India branded? 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:44.640 India was branded here. 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.920 I did an intervention with her, which was May twenty seventeen, 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.440 and I point blank asked her if she'd been branded, 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:54.320 and she didn't lie, which was strange. Because everyone within 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.719 the organization is taught to lie to everybody on the outside. 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.240 So why would you think that she was getting like, 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:01.680 what were the things that you saw that were that 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:02.400 was off? 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:03.120 Okay? 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:08.839 So in the beginning, she became a little more distant, 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.599 she became a little bit more serious, She felt more 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.440 burdened to me, but it could have been you know, Okay. 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.200 So one of the heads of the organization, Nancy Salzman, 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.440 who was higher than Sarah, told me, well, India's individuating, and. 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.920 So I could I could I could buy that. 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.039 No, she was a young woman and she was separating 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:28.839 from me and her family, and she was trying to 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.600 find her own way. So a lot of the symptoms 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.880 that are like, wow, doesn't feel like my daughter anymore, 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.400 doesn't have that kind of brightness and that joyful spirit. 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.520 I didn't know that these were symptoms of her actually 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.839 having her personality dismantled and taking on a cult persona. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:49.800 And that's what happened. 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:54.440 She slowly but surely started to change, and it was 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:56.719 so slow, it's such a slow drip that it wasn't 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:58.880 until it was too late that I realized that they'd 0:06:58.920 --> 0:06:59.400 taken her. 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.000 And that s what do you mean if I've taken her, 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.240 what does that consist of? 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:09.320 Well again, steps, first becoming a coach and so isolating her, 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.360 creating a new family, separating her from her loved ones, 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:17.080 insisting she break up with her boyfriend, then involving her 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.320 twenty four to seven in the organization, recruiting people, making 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.520 it her life, then moving her to Albany, New York, 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:24.040 which was the epicenter of the group. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.200 So slowly but surely the years go by. 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.320 She's living in Albany, She's given up all her possessions 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.400 in LA, she's given up all her friends, and she's 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:35.920 leading this new life in service with Keith R. 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:36.240 Nieri. 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:40.000 And suddenly she's Alison max Slave And you go, what 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:46.800 the hell happened? And it wasn't until Like, I'm a 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.640 parent of several kids, and really part of the way 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:51.560 that I parent is that I try and let my 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.240 kids make their own mistakes. I try not to interfere, 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:58.520 try not to be a helicopter parent, but it you know, 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.800 giving really adhering to giving them the dignity of their 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.000 own process of adulting. But when I found out that 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:07.640 she was actually in physical dangers, the moment that I like, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.400 my maternal instincts just went haywire, and I did everything 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:12.360 that I could to get her out. 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.400 What danger did you see and what danger. 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.400 Did you know that she was in a DEFECTA called 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:21.040 me up mid April twenty seventeen and said you have 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.640 to save her, and I'm like, uh. 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:24.480 Okay, from what? 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.920 And she said, well, she's involved in the secretive slave 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.320 Master group that's supposed to be a female leadership program 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.520 within Nexium, but actually it's a recruiting funnel for sex 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.840 for Keith. It's based on a slave master hierarchy, and 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.680 Alison Mack is her master, and she's being forced to 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.920 recruit slaves. She's probably branded, she's on a five hundred 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.640 calorie a day diet, she's sleep depride. She signed a 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.319 lifetime bow of obedience to Keith and to the organization, 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.880 like she just she read off this list of things, 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.640 and I'm like, how does self help turned into sex trafficking? 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:03.040 How does that even happen? And so the first thing 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:04.840 that I did was I went to see a specialist. 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.440 I organized in an intervention. I brought her back to 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.240 La pretending it was a birthday. I felt horrible. I'd 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.400 never been duplicitous with my daughter. I mean we have, 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:15.400 we had such a great relationship. Found out for my daughter. 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:17.520 At the same time, her hair was falling out. She 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:22.040 had a period in a year. So I'm getting messages 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:26.560 from her that she's having physiological problems. I can't tell 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:29.120 her that I know why because I don't want to 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.840 kind of I don't want to expose my plan to 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.120 bring her back because I was afraid she wouldn't come back. 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.800 And then I fail at the intervention, and I see 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.720 that she's recruiting other young women and I'm able to 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.320 stop them going back to Albany from being branded. 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:44.920 Thank god. 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.520 So you stopped her like she she saw it, saw 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.520 like she in the intervention. She she saw what was happening. 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.880 No, it quite the opposite. She thought I was crazy 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.600 and overreacting, and that she was doing something good and noble, 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:00.760 and that branding was character building. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:02.199 She was completely brainwashed. 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.880 At what point after the intervention, like, how long after 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:07.920 that were you finally able to get through to her? 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.120 Okay, a year and two months. 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.400 Wow, So she just left and you didn't talk to her. 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:19.080 They took her back and they started to well, first 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:23.400 of all, the hierarchy started to try and use her 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.000 to find ways to sue me and compromise me and 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:30.320 silence me. They told her that I was suffering from 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.960 Munchausen by proxy disease, that I was a psychopath, that 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.360 everything I was doing was trying So they brainwashed her 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:40.760 specifically against me, so that I was enemy number one, 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.280 which made it very, very hard because then everything that 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.560 I did when I had to go and expose her 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.640 publicly just deepened the rift and made. 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:50.280 It harder for her to reconcile with me. 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:58.160 Does she still have that negative energy towards you? Or 0:10:58.280 --> 0:10:59.480 she is she? You know? 0:10:59.640 --> 0:10:59.920 She opa? 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:01.520 Hey, now are you guys okay? 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.280 We're more than okay. And I think one of the 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:05.959 first things. 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:07.480 That she said to me that I knew meant that 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.960 she was healing after thinking that I was like public 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.640 enemy number one was she told her best friend, my 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:17.559 mom was willing to have everybody hate her. And I 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:19.760 knew when she said that that she understood that I 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:21.959 was willing to go to any lengths to get her back, 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:23.360 and that was the depth of my love. 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.000 Absolutely, let's take a break. 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:28.120 When we come back, Kathrin Oxenberger is going to talk 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:32.120 about signs parents should look for in their kids. Things 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:34.160 she saw and things you should look for if you've 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:36.640 got kids and are concerned your kids are going down 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:37.240 a bad path. 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.200 Lola is a female founded company offering a line of 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.920 organic cotton tampons, pads, and liners. They now offer sex 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:52.280 products too. Sex by Lola is a line of guynecologists 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:56.440 approved sexual health and wellness products, lubricated condoms, personal lubricant, 0:11:56.480 --> 0:12:00.240 and cleansing wipes. Design First and Foremost for women has 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:02.960 built a brand that is committed to creating transparent and 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.880 trustworthy products and encouraging candid conversations about the experiences we 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.800 as women have throughout our entire reproductive lives. 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When you subscribe, 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.720 that's my loola dot com and enter Jana thirty for 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.800 thirty percent off your first month subscription my loola dot 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:50.679 com and entered Jana thirty. 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:54.040 Do you have any any kind of I guess advice 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.120 for any parents out there that have, you know, these 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.280 young adult children that are kind of going off and 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.400 having their new expert speriences. I don't know, something to 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.719 watch out for that maybe looking back, you might have 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.880 missed or you wish you would have done better. I 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:10.000 don't know, you know, just anything for parents. You know, 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:11.920 we're parents, are two young kids, but just something to 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.400 look out for in those later years. 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:15.320 That's a great question. 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:22.079 I think if I had known that the prefrontal cortex 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.959 of a young adult doesn't fully develop until they're twenty seven, 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:31.959 so their ability to make decisions, their cognitive faculties actually 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:36.400 aren't fully developed, I would probably be more mindful about 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:40.599 what they got involved in and do more due diligence, 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:46.360 and I would teach them about predatory tactics, whether it 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.000 be an abusive relationship or a predatory group like this, 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.920 and what to look for and what to avoid and 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.600 a lot of those warning signs are actually like there's 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.160 a roadmap in my book that makes it very helpful 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.840 to understand. Like if we but whether it's an R Kelly, 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.120 you know how these predators operate in plain sight. Once 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:10.000 you expose their playbook, which is pretty slim, then our 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.440 kids are not going to fall prey in the same way. 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.599 Be it beit a group or be it an individual, 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:15.840 they kind of work the same way. 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:20.840 Absolutely, And going off of that, do you think you know? 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.680 Because I feel like, as again we're parents of two 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.200 young kids, you want everything to be like butterflies and rainbows, right, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:32.240 especially early on in your experience raising multiple children, what's 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.160 that age that maybe you sit them down and have 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.200 these discussions or look, there's bad people in this world. 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.120 There are predators, there's people, and these are the consequences. 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.000 This stuff actually exists in this world. At what age 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.040 would you consider having those discussions going back again with 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:47.520 your kids? 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:48.720 Wow? 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:50.880 You know that is another great question, And I think 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:56.400 that's personal choice because I think you start the minute 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.280 that they interface with other people. I was molested at 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:05.840 age four. I don't know, if it's a personal decision, 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.560 like who your kids are going to be interacting with 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.120 and what you tell them at what age and what 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.000 they can comprehend. So maybe in simple terms when they're younger, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.480 and then when they're able to think cognitively, which starts 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.280 around the age of like ten to twelve, you can 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.240 you know, it's a really hard conversation because you don't 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.800 want them to be suspicious or cynical, and that's it's 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.080 a very fine line. But the world is not a 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.280 safe place and people don't have your best interest, and 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.720 that's it's tough to break that to your kids. 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:44.000 Absolutely when you say this sex slaves and slavery, I 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.080 mean it was it just sex trafficking and sex slavery? 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.240 What other kind of what else did that entail? 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:58.800 Multiple like abuses against women and what it means to 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.040 be a woman, And it was deeply embedded into the curriculum. 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.400 The deeper you got in, the more misogyny was revealed, 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:09.400 till you have women like Laurence Salzman tell Sarah Edmondson 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.440 the only way a woman can build can build self 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:17.120 worth is through humiliation. So I would say this was 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:21.640 a very very dangerous organization because the level of self 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.240 hatred that it was fostering, that women were able to 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:30.760 then hurt another woman. I mean, they were desensitized to 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.920 the point that violence against women was encouraged. 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:34.840 That's very frightening. 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.960 Yeah, but it started not like that. So I'm just 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.640 they just get in and they just totally brainwash you. Wow. 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.760 Well, you have to look at it from two standpoints. 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.960 The epicenter of this cult, the Keith Ranieri, had a 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.120 harm and he was rotating twenty women. This is not 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.960 how they present themselves. This is not what I was 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:57.840 told when I walked in the door to take a class, 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.880 that really the leader is having sex with twenty women 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:03.760 and that potentially anybody who walks through these doors is 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.400 a recruit to become a sexual partner for him. You're 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.800 not told that, but that's really what was going on. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:11.520 This was all about. 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.640 It is about power control and his self gratification. Everything 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:19.200 that was designed, the whole program was as a funneling 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:20.879 system for him. 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:22.239 That's how sick it was. 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:25.040 And he's obviously in jail now. 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:29.040 He is definitely in jail without bail and awaiting sentencing. 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:32.240 Has he owned up to any of it or is 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.600 he that psychopath that just thinks that what he did 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:36.119 was fine. 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:38.320 You want to hear the thing that's so gross. I 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.000 was sitting in court during closing arguments, and I know 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.919 that he made his chief counsel say this to the jury. 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.520 He was basically saying that the first witness, this woman Sylvie, 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:54.080 who had accused him of rape, Basically he's like, well, 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:02.840 Keith gave her her first orgasm. And I'm sitting there going, Okay, 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:05.240 wait a minute, are you really trying to say that 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:07.440 he's a good guy because. 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.200 Because he gave him gave her an Jesus. 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.800 So that's the level of self awareness that this to me, 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.480 He's like he's a lost cause. And if he ever 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:20.119 comes out of jail, I mean, he's a danger to society, 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:20.600 this guy. 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:26.360 M hm. So you have your book came out last year. 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:31.120 Right, hardback came out last August, and then the paperback 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.879 came out this July with a with an extended chapter 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.840 about the trial and reconciling, reconciling with my. 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:40.520 Daughter, and it's called Captive, a mother's Crusade to save 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.920 her daughter from a terrifying cult. It's available now, and 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.600 you're actually going to be on the each or Hollywood Story. 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:52.200 Two yep, I think that's coming out this Saturday. 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.560 Has it been hard for you to be in the 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.840 limelight in this way? Like, I'm sure it wasn't what 0:18:59.920 --> 0:19:04.480 you thought whatever happened, So why did you Why did 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.120 you want to write the book? Why did you want 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:08.400 to come out and do the you know the e story? 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:11.399 And is it to raise awareness or is it? Is 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.160 it a coping mechanism too? 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.800 Originally I wrote the book because I was afraid the 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:19.760 government was going to drop the bull because people had 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.199 brought evidence for decades and nothing had ever happened. So 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:25.720 I thought, I what if my book is the only 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.119 resource that collects all the information to expose Keithriniery and 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.040 these crimes. That was ultimately my first reason for doing it, 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.359 because he hadn't been arrested when I was writing my book, 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.679 and as I'm writing, the story's unfolding, so it was 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.879 happening in real time. Then I wrote it for India. 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:42.560 I wrote it for my daughter because I figured if 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:44.679 she read it, she would wake up, and that didn't 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:49.439 It helped her wake up. And then you know, after that, 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.280 it's to help other family members who are going through 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.560 or what I went through. I hope nobody goes through 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:57.880 what I went through and to prevent it from happening. 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.680 And yes, to raise awareness because I think these these 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.879 predators hide in plain sight, and the more you shine 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.720 a light on their tactics, the easier it is, the 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:08.160 safer we are. 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:13.440 Absolutely, And do you I know again just relating back 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:17.680 to us having kids and our daughter, like she doesn't 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:20.919 complete sentences as well as maybe some of her classmates, right, 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.240 and so Jana and I put it on ourselves and 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:25.479 like we feel guilt where we're like, are we not 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:27.640 doing enough? Are we not doing something right? Where she's 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.200 a little behind. Going through what you've been through with India, 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.040 did you have to overcome those feelings of guilt? Did 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:37.280 you put a lot on yourself initially? Like throughout all 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:38.960 this process. 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:43.119 My personality is immediately yes, I felt guilt that I 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.120 had introduced her to this program, but I'm the way 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.680 that I deal with that is that I'm I find 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:56.159 actionable ways to counteract that. So I went full force 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.280 into getting around. I felt responsible for getting around. I 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:03.280 felt responsible forgetting her out, And it's about being accountable 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:06.640 as a parent, Like you're not can't be blamed for everything. 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:08.680