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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jana Kramer and Michael Cosson and I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio and People's Choice Award nominated podcast.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm really excited because we have Katherine Oxenberg

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Speaker 2: in studio. An Okay, Catherine, I it's you have a

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Speaker 2: fascinating story. How before I jump into it? Do you

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Speaker 2: know Sarah Edmondson?

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Speaker 3: I do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, So we did a movie together about Gosh.

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Speaker 2: It was a year and a half ago, No, two

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Speaker 2: years ago. It's two years ago, and it's it's so

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Speaker 2: weird now thinking back to our conversation because I I

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Speaker 2: remember her saying some kind of weird, weird, weird things,

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Speaker 2: but it was it was off. And then all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, I saw her on Dateline and I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god. I did a Hallmark movie with her,

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Speaker 2: a Christmas movie. Yeah, And so I instagrammed her and

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Speaker 2: I was just like, hey, because I know that she

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Speaker 2: you know, she talked all about being in this Nexium

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Speaker 2: cult and she has you know, the book, her book

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Speaker 2: that just came out, and so I just didn't know

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Speaker 2: how big or small that world was. And if you

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Speaker 2: knew of her, or you know, if because your daughter

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Speaker 2: was the one that was in the Nexium Cults. Correct,

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Speaker 2: that is correct.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I definitely met Sarah through Nexium when it was

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Speaker 4: called Executive Success Program, which was the consumer facing company

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Speaker 4: that she was a coach for. And so yeah, in

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Speaker 4: the beginning, she was a big recruiter and I didn't

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Speaker 4: really have anything to do with the organization. I stopped

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Speaker 4: taking classes probably in twenty thirteen, but my daughter stated

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Speaker 4: and she remained a coach and became very involved. And

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Speaker 4: Sarah was quite high up and as far as owning

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Speaker 4: a center in Vancouver and being responsible for bringing in

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Speaker 4: I don't know, maybe thousands of people, but well, and that's.

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Speaker 2: Kind of what I was like. I felt like she

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Speaker 2: was trying to bring me into something. So I remember

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Speaker 2: being like it was just very strange, and I was like, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm not really like I'm good, you know. But then

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Speaker 2: I was just like, oh my gosh, it's all connected. Wow.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, she's very charismatic. She's a really so sweet, a

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Speaker 4: durable person, and I can see why she was a

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Speaker 4: great recruiter, and I can see why she's a great

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Speaker 4: whistleblower too. She is the same passion and she's the

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Speaker 4: one who when I first was told about what was

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Speaker 4: really going on, which would have been April twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 4: and that my daughter had probably been branded. I met

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Speaker 4: with Sarah and she showed me her brand and on

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Speaker 4: her butt right, No, it's not on her butt, it's

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Speaker 4: like on.

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Speaker 3: Her pelvic area.

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Speaker 2: Pelvic area that's.

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Speaker 4: In the front and hers today is the only brand

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Speaker 4: that I've actually seen. But she and I were in

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Speaker 4: the first New York Times article that broke the story

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Speaker 4: originally and got the attention of the government. And then

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Speaker 4: I went ballistic on a war path with from one

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Speaker 4: media outlet to the other until.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's just start over then. So okay, well,

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Speaker 2: now that we get let's start from the beginning. So you,

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Speaker 2: you and your daughter went to this class. I'll let

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Speaker 2: you kind of started off. How did it start?

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Speaker 4: Innocently? It was a self help leadership program. My daughter

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Speaker 4: was about started business. Sarah Edmondson was one of the

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Speaker 4: coaches in that first class.

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Speaker 3: I'd done a lot of self help.

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Speaker 4: It didn't seem particularly original. My daughter loved it from

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Speaker 4: the beginning. I think what hooked me a little bit

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Speaker 4: was they did these emotional processes that to unhook reactivity

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Speaker 4: or what they considered you know any limitations that you have,

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Speaker 4: and what's actually happening is they're unhooking your gut and

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Speaker 4: they're just starting to dismantle your personality. But it feels good,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of these large group awareness trainings use

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Speaker 4: very similar techniques. I think that probably Keith Ranieri, although

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Speaker 4: he says his material was proprietary and you'd sign an NDA,

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Speaker 4: I think most of it was plagiarized from other of

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Speaker 4: these well known trainings, whether it be ste or Landmark

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Speaker 4: or Scientology. I think that he stole a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 4: So not you know, but my daughter got very involved

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Speaker 4: and there was a huge emphasis on recruitment and they

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Speaker 4: were making a lot of money off people.

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Speaker 5: At one point, Catherine, did you kind of read between

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Speaker 5: the lines and realize this isn't exactly what we signed

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Speaker 5: up for and get yourself out? And then like, why

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Speaker 5: was there such a discrepancy in time between when you

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Speaker 5: got yourself out and then getting your daughter India out.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's an interesting thing that you say getting

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Speaker 4: myself out. I never really considered myself in because I

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Speaker 4: just took classes and there was a huge difference between

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Speaker 4: somebody who was taking the occasional class versus somebody who

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Speaker 4: signed up for the Coach Path, which Sarah was a coach,

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Speaker 4: and those people were taking this program seriously, and they

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Speaker 4: are the ones that they considered to be really dedicated

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Speaker 4: to improving humanity. Like there was a big emphas on

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Speaker 4: the Doctrine and on Keith Ranieriy, who they called the Vanguard.

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Speaker 4: So I never really got in. I just took classes

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Speaker 4: and then I'm like, you know what, this is weird.

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Speaker 4: But the reason I wrote a book, which came out

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Speaker 4: actually last year, was because those warning signs. If I'd

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Speaker 4: recognized that they were dangerous versus just thinking, okay, so

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Speaker 4: these are quirky people, I would have run away. I

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Speaker 4: would have never exposed my daughter to anything as dangerous

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Speaker 4: as this. It's just that I was naive. I didn't

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Speaker 4: really understand how these groups work, and I didn't understand

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Speaker 4: the process of indoctrination and how easy it is to

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Speaker 4: kind of hijack somebody's mind without.

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Speaker 3: You being aware.

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Speaker 2: So was India branded?

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Speaker 3: India was branded here.

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Speaker 4: I did an intervention with her, which was May twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 4: and I point blank asked her if she'd been branded,

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Speaker 4: and she didn't lie, which was strange. Because everyone within

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Speaker 4: the organization is taught to lie to everybody on the outside.

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Speaker 2: So why would you think that she was getting like,

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Speaker 2: what were the things that you saw that were that

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Speaker 2: was off?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 4: So in the beginning, she became a little more distant,

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Speaker 4: she became a little bit more serious, She felt more

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Speaker 4: burdened to me, but it could have been you know, Okay.

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Speaker 4: So one of the heads of the organization, Nancy Salzman,

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Speaker 4: who was higher than Sarah, told me, well, India's individuating, and.

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Speaker 3: So I could I could I could buy that.

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Speaker 4: No, she was a young woman and she was separating

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Speaker 4: from me and her family, and she was trying to

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Speaker 4: find her own way. So a lot of the symptoms

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Speaker 4: that are like, wow, doesn't feel like my daughter anymore,

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Speaker 4: doesn't have that kind of brightness and that joyful spirit.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know that these were symptoms of her actually

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Speaker 4: having her personality dismantled and taking on a cult persona.

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Speaker 3: And that's what happened.

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Speaker 4: She slowly but surely started to change, and it was

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Speaker 4: so slow, it's such a slow drip that it wasn't

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Speaker 4: until it was too late that I realized that they'd

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Speaker 4: taken her.

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Speaker 2: And that s what do you mean if I've taken her,

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Speaker 2: what does that consist of?

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Speaker 4: Well again, steps, first becoming a coach and so isolating her,

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Speaker 4: creating a new family, separating her from her loved ones,

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Speaker 4: insisting she break up with her boyfriend, then involving her

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Speaker 4: twenty four to seven in the organization, recruiting people, making

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Speaker 4: it her life, then moving her to Albany, New York,

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Speaker 4: which was the epicenter of the group.

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Speaker 3: So slowly but surely the years go by.

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Speaker 4: She's living in Albany, She's given up all her possessions

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Speaker 4: in LA, she's given up all her friends, and she's

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Speaker 4: leading this new life in service with Keith R.

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Speaker 2: Nieri.

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Speaker 4: And suddenly she's Alison max Slave And you go, what

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Speaker 4: the hell happened? And it wasn't until Like, I'm a

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Speaker 4: parent of several kids, and really part of the way

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Speaker 4: that I parent is that I try and let my

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Speaker 4: kids make their own mistakes. I try not to interfere,

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Speaker 4: try not to be a helicopter parent, but it you know,

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Speaker 4: giving really adhering to giving them the dignity of their

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Speaker 4: own process of adulting. But when I found out that

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Speaker 4: she was actually in physical dangers, the moment that I like,

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Speaker 4: my maternal instincts just went haywire, and I did everything

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Speaker 4: that I could to get her out.

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Speaker 2: What danger did you see and what danger.

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Speaker 4: Did you know that she was in a DEFECTA called

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Speaker 4: me up mid April twenty seventeen and said you have

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Speaker 4: to save her, and I'm like, uh.

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Speaker 3: Okay, from what?

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Speaker 4: And she said, well, she's involved in the secretive slave

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Speaker 4: Master group that's supposed to be a female leadership program

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Speaker 4: within Nexium, but actually it's a recruiting funnel for sex

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Speaker 4: for Keith. It's based on a slave master hierarchy, and

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Speaker 4: Alison Mack is her master, and she's being forced to

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Speaker 4: recruit slaves. She's probably branded, she's on a five hundred

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Speaker 4: calorie a day diet, she's sleep depride. She signed a

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Speaker 4: lifetime bow of obedience to Keith and to the organization,

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Speaker 4: like she just she read off this list of things,

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Speaker 4: and I'm like, how does self help turned into sex trafficking?

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Speaker 4: How does that even happen? And so the first thing

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Speaker 4: that I did was I went to see a specialist.

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Speaker 4: I organized in an intervention. I brought her back to

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Speaker 4: La pretending it was a birthday. I felt horrible. I'd

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Speaker 4: never been duplicitous with my daughter. I mean we have,

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Speaker 4: we had such a great relationship. Found out for my daughter.

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Speaker 4: At the same time, her hair was falling out. She

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Speaker 4: had a period in a year. So I'm getting messages

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Speaker 4: from her that she's having physiological problems. I can't tell

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Speaker 4: her that I know why because I don't want to

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Speaker 4: kind of I don't want to expose my plan to

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Speaker 4: bring her back because I was afraid she wouldn't come back.

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Speaker 4: And then I fail at the intervention, and I see

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Speaker 4: that she's recruiting other young women and I'm able to

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Speaker 4: stop them going back to Albany from being branded.

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Speaker 3: Thank god.

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Speaker 2: So you stopped her like she she saw it, saw

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Speaker 2: like she in the intervention. She she saw what was happening.

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Speaker 4: No, it quite the opposite. She thought I was crazy

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Speaker 4: and overreacting, and that she was doing something good and noble,

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Speaker 4: and that branding was character building.

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Speaker 3: She was completely brainwashed.

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Speaker 5: At what point after the intervention, like, how long after

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Speaker 5: that were you finally able to get through to her?

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Speaker 3: Okay, a year and two months.

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Speaker 2: Wow, So she just left and you didn't talk to her.

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Speaker 4: They took her back and they started to well, first

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Speaker 4: of all, the hierarchy started to try and use her

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Speaker 4: to find ways to sue me and compromise me and

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Speaker 4: silence me. They told her that I was suffering from

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Speaker 4: Munchausen by proxy disease, that I was a psychopath, that

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Speaker 4: everything I was doing was trying So they brainwashed her

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Speaker 4: specifically against me, so that I was enemy number one,

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Speaker 4: which made it very, very hard because then everything that

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Speaker 4: I did when I had to go and expose her

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Speaker 4: publicly just deepened the rift and made.

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Speaker 3: It harder for her to reconcile with me.

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Speaker 2: Does she still have that negative energy towards you? Or

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Speaker 2: she is she? You know?

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Speaker 3: She opa?

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Speaker 2: Hey, now are you guys okay?

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Speaker 3: We're more than okay. And I think one of the

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Speaker 3: first things.

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Speaker 4: That she said to me that I knew meant that

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Speaker 4: she was healing after thinking that I was like public

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Speaker 4: enemy number one was she told her best friend, my

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Speaker 4: mom was willing to have everybody hate her. And I

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Speaker 4: knew when she said that that she understood that I

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Speaker 4: was willing to go to any lengths to get her back,

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Speaker 4: and that was the depth of my love.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, let's take a break.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, Kathrin Oxenberger is going to talk

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Speaker 1: about signs parents should look for in their kids. Things

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Speaker 1: she saw and things you should look for if you've

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Speaker 1: got kids and are concerned your kids are going down

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Speaker 1: a bad path.

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Speaker 5: Do you have any any kind of I guess advice

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Speaker 5: for any parents out there that have, you know, these

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Speaker 5: young adult children that are kind of going off and

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Speaker 5: having their new expert speriences. I don't know, something to

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Speaker 5: watch out for that maybe looking back, you might have

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Speaker 5: missed or you wish you would have done better. I

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Speaker 5: don't know, you know, just anything for parents. You know,

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Speaker 5: we're parents, are two young kids, but just something to

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Speaker 5: look out for in those later years.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question.

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Speaker 4: I think if I had known that the prefrontal cortex

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Speaker 4: of a young adult doesn't fully develop until they're twenty seven,

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Speaker 4: so their ability to make decisions, their cognitive faculties actually

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Speaker 4: aren't fully developed, I would probably be more mindful about

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Speaker 4: what they got involved in and do more due diligence,

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Speaker 4: and I would teach them about predatory tactics, whether it

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Speaker 4: be an abusive relationship or a predatory group like this,

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Speaker 4: and what to look for and what to avoid and

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Speaker 4: a lot of those warning signs are actually like there's

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Speaker 4: a roadmap in my book that makes it very helpful

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Speaker 4: to understand. Like if we but whether it's an R Kelly,

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Speaker 4: you know how these predators operate in plain sight. Once

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Speaker 4: you expose their playbook, which is pretty slim, then our

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Speaker 4: kids are not going to fall prey in the same way.

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Speaker 4: Be it beit a group or be it an individual,

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Speaker 4: they kind of work the same way.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, And going off of that, do you think you know?

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Speaker 5: Because I feel like, as again we're parents of two

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Speaker 5: young kids, you want everything to be like butterflies and rainbows, right,

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Speaker 5: especially early on in your experience raising multiple children, what's

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Speaker 5: that age that maybe you sit them down and have

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Speaker 5: these discussions or look, there's bad people in this world.

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Speaker 5: There are predators, there's people, and these are the consequences.

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Speaker 5: This stuff actually exists in this world. At what age

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Speaker 5: would you consider having those discussions going back again with

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Speaker 5: your kids?

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Speaker 3: Wow?

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Speaker 4: You know that is another great question, And I think

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Speaker 4: that's personal choice because I think you start the minute

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Speaker 4: that they interface with other people. I was molested at

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Speaker 4: age four. I don't know, if it's a personal decision,

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Speaker 4: like who your kids are going to be interacting with

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Speaker 4: and what you tell them at what age and what

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Speaker 4: they can comprehend. So maybe in simple terms when they're younger,

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Speaker 4: and then when they're able to think cognitively, which starts

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Speaker 4: around the age of like ten to twelve, you can

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Speaker 4: you know, it's a really hard conversation because you don't

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Speaker 4: want them to be suspicious or cynical, and that's it's

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Speaker 4: a very fine line. But the world is not a

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Speaker 4: safe place and people don't have your best interest, and

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Speaker 4: that's it's tough to break that to your kids.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely when you say this sex slaves and slavery, I

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Speaker 2: mean it was it just sex trafficking and sex slavery?

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Speaker 2: What other kind of what else did that entail?

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Speaker 4: Multiple like abuses against women and what it means to

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Speaker 4: be a woman, And it was deeply embedded into the curriculum.

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Speaker 4: The deeper you got in, the more misogyny was revealed,

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Speaker 4: till you have women like Laurence Salzman tell Sarah Edmondson

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Speaker 4: the only way a woman can build can build self

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Speaker 4: worth is through humiliation. So I would say this was

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Speaker 4: a very very dangerous organization because the level of self

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Speaker 4: hatred that it was fostering, that women were able to

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Speaker 4: then hurt another woman. I mean, they were desensitized to

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Speaker 4: the point that violence against women was encouraged.

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Speaker 3: That's very frightening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it started not like that. So I'm just

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Speaker 2: they just get in and they just totally brainwash you. Wow.

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Speaker 4: Well, you have to look at it from two standpoints.

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Speaker 4: The epicenter of this cult, the Keith Ranieri, had a

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Speaker 4: harm and he was rotating twenty women. This is not

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Speaker 4: how they present themselves. This is not what I was

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Speaker 4: told when I walked in the door to take a class,

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Speaker 4: that really the leader is having sex with twenty women

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Speaker 4: and that potentially anybody who walks through these doors is

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Speaker 4: a recruit to become a sexual partner for him. You're

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Speaker 4: not told that, but that's really what was going on.

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Speaker 3: This was all about.

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Speaker 4: It is about power control and his self gratification. Everything

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Speaker 4: that was designed, the whole program was as a funneling

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Speaker 4: system for him.

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Speaker 3: That's how sick it was.

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Speaker 2: And he's obviously in jail now.

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Speaker 3: He is definitely in jail without bail and awaiting sentencing.

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Speaker 2: Has he owned up to any of it or is

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Speaker 2: he that psychopath that just thinks that what he did

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Speaker 2: was fine.

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Speaker 4: You want to hear the thing that's so gross. I

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Speaker 4: was sitting in court during closing arguments, and I know

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Speaker 4: that he made his chief counsel say this to the jury.

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Speaker 4: He was basically saying that the first witness, this woman Sylvie,

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Speaker 4: who had accused him of rape, Basically he's like, well,

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Speaker 4: Keith gave her her first orgasm. And I'm sitting there going, Okay,

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Speaker 4: wait a minute, are you really trying to say that

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Speaker 4: he's a good guy because.

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Speaker 2: Because he gave him gave her an Jesus.

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Speaker 4: So that's the level of self awareness that this to me,

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Speaker 4: He's like he's a lost cause. And if he ever

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Speaker 4: comes out of jail, I mean, he's a danger to society,

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Speaker 4: this guy.

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Speaker 2: M hm. So you have your book came out last year.

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Speaker 4: Right, hardback came out last August, and then the paperback

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Speaker 4: came out this July with a with an extended chapter

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Speaker 4: about the trial and reconciling, reconciling with my.

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Speaker 2: Daughter, and it's called Captive, a mother's Crusade to save

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Speaker 2: her daughter from a terrifying cult. It's available now, and

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Speaker 2: you're actually going to be on the each or Hollywood Story.

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Speaker 4: Two yep, I think that's coming out this Saturday.

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Speaker 2: Has it been hard for you to be in the

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Speaker 2: limelight in this way? Like, I'm sure it wasn't what

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Speaker 2: you thought whatever happened, So why did you Why did

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Speaker 2: you want to write the book? Why did you want

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Speaker 2: to come out and do the you know the e story?

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Speaker 2: And is it to raise awareness or is it? Is

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Speaker 2: it a coping mechanism too?

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Speaker 4: Originally I wrote the book because I was afraid the

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Speaker 4: government was going to drop the bull because people had

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Speaker 4: brought evidence for decades and nothing had ever happened. So

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Speaker 4: I thought, I what if my book is the only

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Speaker 4: resource that collects all the information to expose Keithriniery and

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Speaker 4: these crimes. That was ultimately my first reason for doing it,

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Speaker 4: because he hadn't been arrested when I was writing my book,

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Speaker 4: and as I'm writing, the story's unfolding, so it was

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Speaker 4: happening in real time. Then I wrote it for India.

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Speaker 4: I wrote it for my daughter because I figured if

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Speaker 4: she read it, she would wake up, and that didn't

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Speaker 4: It helped her wake up. And then you know, after that,

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Speaker 4: it's to help other family members who are going through

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Speaker 4: or what I went through. I hope nobody goes through

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Speaker 4: what I went through and to prevent it from happening.

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Speaker 4: And yes, to raise awareness because I think these these

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Speaker 4: predators hide in plain sight, and the more you shine

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Speaker 4: a light on their tactics, the easier it is, the

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Speaker 4: safer we are.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, And do you I know again just relating back

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Speaker 5: to us having kids and our daughter, like she doesn't

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Speaker 5: complete sentences as well as maybe some of her classmates, right,

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Speaker 5: and so Jana and I put it on ourselves and

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Speaker 5: like we feel guilt where we're like, are we not

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Speaker 5: doing enough? Are we not doing something right? Where she's

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Speaker 5: a little behind. Going through what you've been through with India,

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Speaker 5: did you have to overcome those feelings of guilt? Did

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Speaker 5: you put a lot on yourself initially? Like throughout all

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Speaker 5: this process.

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Speaker 4: My personality is immediately yes, I felt guilt that I

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Speaker 4: had introduced her to this program, but I'm the way

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Speaker 4: that I deal with that is that I'm I find

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Speaker 4: actionable ways to counteract that. So I went full force

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Speaker 4: into getting around. I felt responsible for getting around. I

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Speaker 4: felt responsible forgetting her out, And it's about being accountable

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Speaker 4: as a parent, Like you're not can't be blamed for everything.

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Speaker 3: But wherever you can help, you do.

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Speaker 2: How is India, you know, dealt with the healing process

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Speaker 2: through all.

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Speaker 4: This, It's been intensive, I think for anybody. This is

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Speaker 4: the thing that people don't understand. You can't leave a

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Speaker 4: cult and move forward. You're still trapped, like it's in

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00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 4: your head. So they've changed the way you think. You're

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Speaker 4: still under the influence of the doctrine. So it takes

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Speaker 4: a lot of work to unravel what was done to

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Speaker 4: you and to reclaim your ability to think critically.

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Speaker 2: And that is a process and it's just been lots

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Speaker 2: of therapy. What was one thing that helped her the most?

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Speaker 4: Do you think, Gosh, you'd have to ask her that,

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Speaker 4: I mean, because I'd like to think it, you know,

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Speaker 4: it was me, but I don't think it was.

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Speaker 3: I think it was a lot of things.

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Speaker 4: She she met a lot of people who gave her

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Speaker 4: a different perspective, and that perspective sort of shatted the

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00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 4: cult persona like a watching her blossom was really beautiful

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Speaker 4: and coming back to herself, well, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, I just appreciate you coming on here and sharing

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00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 2: the story and for being vulnerable, and you know, you're

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Speaker 2: obviously your words and your story are going to help

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, and hopefully, you know, I hope

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00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 2: everyone gets your book too, because I mean, it's it's

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00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 2: unfortunately not just a fascinating made up story. You know,

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00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: it's real and something that you guys have been through

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Speaker 2: and others are probably going through right now. So hopefully

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Speaker 2: this will be the first you know, look into it

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Speaker 2: and then also the you know, the help to get out.

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Speaker 2: So we appreciate you.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so.

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Speaker 5: Much, both, Thank you Catherine, and listeners, don't forget to

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Speaker 5: watch the true Hollywood story on this Thanks Catherine. Thanks

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00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 5: you guys.

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Speaker 3: Take care.

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00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 2: Halloween is on the way, which means it's time to

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00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 2: break out the rubber spiders, fake cowboebs, and jack lanterns.

439
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 2: But if you've got a family, you might be dealing

440
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 2: with something a little scary right now. Shopping for life insurance.

441
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 2: If the idea of looking for life insurance intimidates you,

442
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 2: try policygenius dot com. Policygenius is the easy way to

443
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 2: shop for life insurance online. In minutes, you can compare

444
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 2: quotes from top insurers to find your best price. Once

445
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: you apply, the policy Genius team will handle all the paperwork.

446
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 2: And red tape, and policy Genius doesn't just make life

447
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 2: insurance easy. They can help also with finding the right

448
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 2: home insurance, auto insurance, and disability insurance. This October, take

449
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 2: this scariness out of buying life insurance with Policygenius. Go

450
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: to policygenius dot com get quotes and applying minutes. You

451
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 2: can do the whole thing on your phone right now.

452
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 2: Policy Genius the easy way to compare and buy life insurance.

453
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 2: What's up, guys?

454
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 5: What's happening?

455
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 2: Mark Easton? Are you there?

456
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 1: I'm here. Easton is dealing with other podcast as we speak.

457
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: He's running around this building like.

458
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 5: Crazy awesome, Go team Go. How are you guys living

459
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 5: the dream? Yeah?

460
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 2: Every day day we're hustling.

461
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: When we last left, we had a discussion about Mike's

462
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: trip to Mount Kilimanjaro. Is there but any further discussion

463
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: on that?

464
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 5: No, we got other stuff more at the forefront that

465
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 5: we're working on. That's okay.

466
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: Well then I'll be quiet and let you guys go.

467
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 5: Do you have anything, honey?

468
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: Nope, I really don't want to be here right now,

469
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: so I've.

470
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: Kind of gotten that vibe.

471
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 5: Actually, we wear our hearts on our sleeves. Mark what

472
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 5: can we say. It's a blessing. It's a blessing and

473
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 5: a curse.

474
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 2: I mean, if you want to talk about it, be

475
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: my guess, Michael.

476
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 5: You know what, here's the situation, and this is I mean,

477
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 5: I'll tell you, well, we give these listeners some good stuff.

478
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's real good. My heart on the floor. It's

479
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: really good.

480
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 5: I'm not saying that.

481
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 2: I'm just really no, I know, it's just really good stuff.

482
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 5: You really want to talk about this, I mean, go

483
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 5: for it.

484
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 2: I already got all that out there. I might as

485
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: well just keep it on a roll.

486
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 5: And I'm sure people deal with this. So all right,

487
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 5: here's I'll give the the gist of it. Oh no,

488
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 5: let me start on Saturday. On Saturday, we had some

489
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 5: friends in town about to go out for a date night.

490
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 5: I received this text message from this number I don't recognize.

491
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 5: Open it up. It's a picture of a female and like.

492
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 2: A message or large bibs top off.

493
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 3: Mm hm.

494
00:25:55,040 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 5: Message from a female with weird writing under me saying oh,

495
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 5: let's try to meet up this time or something like that.

496
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 5: I don't.

497
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 2: I mean, you brought it up.

498
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: So this was the wrong number. This was an old situation.

499
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it wasn't anybody I knew. Oh, and so

500
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 5: I see it and I'm like, okay, I know the

501
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 5: right thing to do is to go get Janna, pull

502
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 5: her aside, and say, hey, I receive this. I don't

503
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 5: know what the hell it is, but I just need

504
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 5: to let you know because something like this has happened.

505
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 5: Happened like a year ago when when we were in

506
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 5: la very similar situation, nearly identical, and I brought it

507
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 5: to Jana and I said exactly pretty much that hey,

508
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 5: I just got this. I don't know what the hell

509
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 5: it is, but I just needed to bring it to you.

510
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 5: And she handled it well, she really did. And this

511
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 5: situation Saturday, even though I consciously had that dialogue with

512
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 5: myself saying I know what I need to do here,

513
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 5: I was terrified to do so I started kind of

514
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 5: rationalizing in my head. I'm like, man, we're about to

515
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 5: go out to a date night with like two other couples.

516
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 5: I was like, in the other end, on the other side,

517
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,719
Speaker 5: I'm like, we've Jan and I have really had a

518
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 5: good run recently, like not a lot of past stuff

519
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 5: coming up. We've been handling situations pretty well, handling triggers

520
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 5: pretty well, talking things out where it's like it really

521
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 5: felt like we were building a lot of forward momentum,

522
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 5: and really majority of our conflicts were around day to

523
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 5: day marital issues, and so the part of me that

524
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 5: won in this situation was like, this is the past

525
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 5: coming back up. I don't want any part of this.

526
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 5: This is not me. Like, get out of here and

527
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 5: delete block done all with the intention in Gene will

528
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 5: chime in after I'm done talking definitely about this is

529
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 5: I was like, look, I need I don't want to

530
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 5: bring this up now. I don' want any part of

531
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 5: it right now. I felt like a hot potato. I

532
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 5: didn't even want it in my text messages. Get rid

533
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 5: of it. I talked to my sponsor usually like every

534
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 5: Monday morning, because I know where he's going, I know

535
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 5: where he'll be and I can get a hold of him.

536
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 5: I want to talk to him and go from there

537
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 5: with all the intention of bringing to Jenna letting an

538
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 5: the situation, telling her why I deleted it, which was

539
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 5: because I just didn't want any part of it, none

540
00:28:52,920 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 5: of it. And so then yesterday I don't know what

541
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 5: inspired Janna, but she looked she saw my Apple watch

542
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 5: and saw the text message on there, so when she

543
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 5: compared to my phone, she thought I was just being

544
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 5: sneaky and deleting it. And I understand, and I truly

545
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 5: am empathetic to the fact that her seeing something that

546
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 5: was deleted that wasn't brought to her attention by me

547
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 5: in a healthy.

548
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,479
Speaker 2: Way, because it's a boundary.

549
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 5: Is extremely triggering. And yeah, it's a boundary to not

550
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 5: delete things something that we have mutually discussed and agreed on.

551
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 5: So a lot of stuff comes up for her, a

552
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 5: lot of stuff comes up for me, and it's we

553
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 5: had a couple of session about it this morning, and

554
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 5: it's just it's one of those things that's just different

555
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 5: cult to navigate. The only thing I can think of

556
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 5: and how this person even had my number was almost

557
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 5: eighteen months ago when I had my relapse and I

558
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 5: was reaching out to numbers of a plethora of numbers,

559
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 5: and which again, which is how this same situation happened

560
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 5: like a year ago. And so it's just it just

561
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 5: sucks because it's it's just as soon as we feel

562
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 5: like we're hitting a good, you know, patch, it's just

563
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 5: like my past behaviors, my past actions come back to

564
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 5: haunt me. And then because I didn't handle it in

565
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 5: the way I know I had to, it made it

566
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 5: even worse.

567
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: So the thinking was, we're going for a date and night,

568
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: it's going to be great. Things have been so good

569
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: with us lately. I don't want to trigger her in

570
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: any way.

571
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I was just like, this is so not me.

572
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 5: I just don't want any part of this right now.

573
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 5: I don't want or period. I don't want this life.

574
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 5: This isn't the life that I'm living now.

575
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: It's a part of your life you want to bury,

576
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: and it's rearing it's ugly head and you're just like,

577
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: get away, get away, get away.

578
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:27,719
Speaker 5: Yes, which is understandable, but not what Jane and I

579
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 5: agreed on on how to discuss these things and handle

580
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 5: these things. And it's beyond hurtful to see Gianna hurt

581
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 5: and upset and feel the things that she feels because

582
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 5: of the things that I've done in the past.

583
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: And Jenny, you regularly go through texts no I.

584
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:11,239
Speaker 2: Don't, I haven't. Yeah, we'd gotten to a fight that

585
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: morning or the afternoon or whatever, and I just I

586
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: don't know. I saw a little watch thing on the

587
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: counter in the bathroom and I just I always have

588
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: this like really weird intuition. Every time I've had that intuition,

589
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: it tells me to look and I always find something.

590
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: And when I looked, I was like, god, damn it,

591
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: I saw it and I just immediately started my heart

592
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: just fell. I was like, it's here. It's happened again.

593
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 2: I'm such a freaking idiot. And I immediately called my

594
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: best friend and I just was like shaking, crying outside

595
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: and then I texted the number where I called the number,

596
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: and then I texted it and it was like please.

597
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 2: You know. It's like it said like sorry, Hun, can't can't,

598
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 2: can't talk on the phone, like do you want me

599
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: to come over? And I was just like you texted

600
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: my husband. I would love to know your correspondence, like

601
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,959
Speaker 2: please from one one woman to another. And I'm just

602
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: like as I'm typing this, I was like this is

603
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: literally like how is this happening again? And then like

604
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 2: the messages got like really weird then like it sent

605
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: me the same message that it sent Mike, and so

606
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: that it started to think, Okay, maybe this is like

607
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: one of those like computer people. Yeah, like abot like

608
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: computer because it was like what kind of boobs do

609
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: you like? And I'm like, Okay, this isn't a real person.

610
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: So then I'm like, yeah, they're not even reading it.

611
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: They're just like I'm coming to Nashville, like let's hook up.

612
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 2: And I'm just like okay. So then I like got

613
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 2: to that point. So I'm like, Okay, so maybe he

614
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 2: hasn't this is an actual person, but maybe he like

615
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 2: got on a site because you know, usually when you

616
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 2: sometimes go to sites, those things can get on your

617
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: phone and then then you're part of it, like that

618
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 2: spam thing. So but I'm like, how would he get

619
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: on porn sites because he's got comented eyes on his

620
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: things to not have the ability to go to those places.

621
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 2: And so then I called my sponsor.

622
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 6: Or.

623
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: She's kind of my sponsor. It's weird. She's she's in

624
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: the program and she's a sex addict, and so I

625
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 2: called her and I just was talking this through and

626
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: and the part is is it's the deleting. It's the

627
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 2: because I'm like, if he didn't delete it, like I

628
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: like he said, Mike said it like he came to

629
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: me before and I was totally fine with I wasn't

630
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 2: fine with it, but I was like, Okay, this sucks,

631
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 2: but thanks for bringing it to me. It's the the

632
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 2: sneakiness of like feeling like he deleted it because I'm like,

633
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 2: I like he saw before. I didn't freak out. I

634
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 2: could understand if maybe I freaked out before and through

635
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: a fit, but I didn't. I was okay with it

636
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: as okay as I was. So the part that like

637
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: scared my sponsor was that you know that he deleted

638
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: it and withheld information, especially since that's the boundary and

639
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: you know, and so they're like, okay, like you know

640
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 2: this isn't the smoking gun. What you know? Do you

641
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: hire a PI? And I'm just like, oh my god,

642
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: like my whole my whole world is about to just

643
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: fucking crumble again. And I'm like, and I just started.

644
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: I'm just like how like this I know how, but

645
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 2: I just so it's just been to feel I'm just

646
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: sick of finding things. I feel like I'm constantly and

647
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: it's like some of then someone says, well, don't look,

648
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: but then it's hard not to look when I have

649
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: that intuition to look.

650
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: And from your standpoint, the coincidence of the one time

651
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: you look, yeah, you find something that's got to be tough, but.

652
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and it's every time. And then it's like

653
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: the hard thing too is a lot of the times

654
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: when I do find something, he'll say, no, I'm sorry,

655
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 2: it was just I don't know. But then there's always

656
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: something after that. And that's where I'm like, Okay, now

657
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 2: I'm like living in the lava again. When am I

658
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 2: gonna get completely covered by it? Because that's next And

659
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 2: that's the part that's like, that's the part that's like,

660
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to live this kind of

661
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: life to know when the like we just moved into

662
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: this beautiful house and we had a second kid, like

663
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: we've fought so hard, Like why is this happening again?

664
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm so scared of because it's it's

665
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: not whether he ends up meeting up with someone or not.

666
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: I mean that last relapse, he almost did and I

667
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 2: was gonna sign the papers. So it's like he gets

668
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: even close to the fire and I'm gone, it's like

669
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 2: does And I'm like does he not know that and

670
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: realize that and love our family enough? And I know

671
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 2: it's not a bar our family, it's not about me,

672
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 2: but that's just where but unfortunately we met or fortunately

673
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: we had a couple's well. So last night I just

674
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 2: was like, get out of the room, you know, out

675
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 2: And this morning we had the obviously the couples therapists

676
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: and it was a new therapist. The poor guy just

677
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 2: got out of majorly baptized by fire because but you know,

678
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: and he just was like, you know, gave Mike the

679
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 2: opportunity to come forward and know that I'm going to

680
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 2: start researching and looking into things on the phone bill

681
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: and just he's like, can you try not to go

682
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: all the way down the rabbit hole? You know, He's like,

683
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 2: do you need to look for a couple of weeks

684
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 2: and see? And that's the hard part because now I

685
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 2: have to go, Okay, was he on an inappropriate side

686
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: that I don't know about? Was this just a fluke?

687
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 2: Is he really? You know, I'm like, I love you, Mike,

688
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 2: but like you're a good liar, Like you pass the

689
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 2: lie at doctor test, you know what I mean. Lying.

690
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 2: So I'm like, you're you're charming as how people believe

691
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,479
Speaker 2: you like you've lied to like I mean I've seen

692
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 2: you like look me in the eye and tell me

693
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 2: that what your truth was. But it wasn't your truth? Yeah,

694
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: So it's like I'm kind of cat and like this weird,

695
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 2: Like what do I believe?

696
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 6: How?

697
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 2: Was it just a fluke? I don't know. And that's

698
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 2: where I'm just like I kind of just feel like

699
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: I'm like I've given enough signs to the freaking universe.

700
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 2: So I'm like, do I do I keep asking for signs?

701
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: Or are these my signs? But like you can get

702
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: out of dodge. Sorry, this is just really fresh.

703
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 7: Don't be sorry, oh.

704
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: Amy, of course you don't be sorry at the show.

705
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 7: No, But I also am like here with tears in

706
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 7: my eyes and I the thing that's is you're not

707
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 7: looking at each other right now, and you're not speaking

708
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 7: to each other, and your body language is really tough

709
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 7: right now, and you're talking about him but he's right

710
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 7: next to you.

711
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 2: Because I'm just not ready to look at me because

712
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm looking at.

713
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 7: Okay, that's okay, what would help you?

714
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's a thing I can't There's nothing

715
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 2: that I'm like, I don't I don't know, but I

716
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 2: just I'm like, why can't you Just like I didn't

717
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: give you a reason to not tell me the truth

718
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 2: or to not just be like, hey, this came up,

719
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 2: Like I just need like in moments like that, because

720
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 2: I always ask, I'm like, hey, is anything inappropriate? Or

721
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: I give him then opportunity to come to have a

722
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 2: safe place, and I like, I want those moments so bad.

723
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: I want to see that he's working his recovery and

724
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: working the boundaries like that stuff is so huge for me,

725
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 2: which is why I didn't freak out the last time

726
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 2: when he came to me.

727
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 7: Well, Michael, what scares you? What scares you? To tell her?

728
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 5: And that's just it's it's scary period. I understand because

729
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 5: there's so much shame because in my mind, yes, even

730
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 5: though I know the right thing to do, it's still

731
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 5: a reminder of the things that I've done. And so

732
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 5: there's just there's so much pain. There's so much fear

733
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 5: behind that that you had a part of me. It's

734
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 5: just like, I don't want her to have to think

735
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 5: of that stuff.

736
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:36,959
Speaker 7: What about forgiving yourself first, Mike and trying every day

737
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 7: because you have so much pain, And then because of that,

738
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 7: it is all over Jana and she has to carry

739
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 7: so much because you won't forgive yourself. She can't forgive

740
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 7: you until you forgive yourself.

741
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I've told him I forgive him.

742
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 7: I know you have. And Mike, you are a good person.

743
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 7: You are you both are so beautiful and strong and open,

744
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 7: and I just don't know that you guys know it.

745
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 7: So Janna, I read this article. It's really interesting you

746
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 7: bring this up about the need to know versus the

747
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 7: fear of knowing, And I think that that's something that

748
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 7: you should think about and talk to your sponsor therapist

749
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 7: about because it seems that that's what you grapple with.

750
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 7: You need to know, but you're afraid to know, and

751
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 7: that becomes a painful conflict for someone and neither is

752
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 7: necessarily I.

753
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 2: Need to know for safety, That's the thing, Like, that's

754
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 2: kind of what I've always when something comes up, because

755
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: I want to know that he's because it is hard

756
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: for him to tell the truth. It has been in

757
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: the past. So it's like to know that I'm safe

758
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: in this marriage and to know that he's not acting

759
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: out like those are the things, like those land minds,

760
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 2: that land minds that he gets for me to be

761
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: able to see and to know that he's doing what

762
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: he's you know what people have told him and how

763
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 2: to you know, how to tell me? And it's like

764
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: and with me being empathetic and sitting in it and

765
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: knowing what he's doing, like that's that, It's like, it's

766
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: it's so helpful. It shows me that he's on the

767
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: right path. Security And yeah, it gives me security is

768
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: telling me the truth and not just deleting things. Like

769
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 2: the deleting things just I mean, it just whether it's

770
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: it was a fluke text sends me right back to

771
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 2: him deleting all the messages that he did with his affairs.

772
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 7: I understand that. I understand that.

773
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 2: So it's just it's heavy because I'm like and now

774
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:43,479
Speaker 2: I just I don't know what I.

775
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 7: Don't know, Well, you feel out of control?

776
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I feel like I'm just like my

777
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,919
Speaker 2: anxiety level is just like through the roof.

778
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 7: And did the therapist this morning have any input on

779
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 7: that about what to do now?

780
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 5: Uh, to take the space we need and to rely

781
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 5: on what we need to rely on in order to

782
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 5: take care of ourselves.

783
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 7: Mm hmm, it makes sense.

784
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 6: I know.

785
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 7: I feel like Janna has to find the security in herself.

786
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 2: That's the thing. Like I'm when you know, when I

787
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 2: got upset last night, like staring at my house outside

788
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 2: in our driveway. It was I'm I'm secure with me,

789
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: but like our relationship and I thought we were. It's

790
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 2: just I felt like it was like a slap in

791
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: the face. So I'm not secure in his recovery. But

792
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: it's not my recovery, that's the thing. So it's it's

793
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: that's the the that's the the hard part about living

794
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 2: with an addict. Today. I'm not secure. A few days ago,

795
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: I elsecure.

796
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 7: I'm trying to just process everything. It's it's really complicated.

797
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 5: It is, and it's it is, but it's not, you know,

798
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 5: And that's that's honestly, it's that's part of the weight

799
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 5: and the frustration and the pain of it all because

800
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 5: when you look at it, if you put it down

801
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 5: on paper, it's very simplistic. Just all I had to

802
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 5: do was come to her and say, hey, this happened.

803
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 7: So what is your answer why you didn't?

804
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 5: First of all, for me, feeling safe in telling the

805
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 5: truth is something that goes back since I was young,

806
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 5: Like I have fear around even being honest because of

807
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 5: how it was received in my upbringing. So that's a

808
00:44:55,800 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 5: very big traumatic trigger. For me and has definitely been

809
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 5: my biggest hurdle in living with integrity and being completely

810
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 5: honest and transparent and in everything in all accounts, because

811
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 5: I want to run so far away from that life

812
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 5: of getting that kind of text message of being reminded

813
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 5: of the piece of shit I used to be. That

814
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 5: it's just it's that shame hit, that kick in the dick,

815
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 5: and I just selfishly I didn't want any part of it.

816
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 5: And that's the part that's unfair because I took that

817
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 5: opportunity away from myself and from Jana because I wanted

818
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 5: to spare myself and her. But I feel like it

819
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 5: was more of a selfish decision because I was scared.

820
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 7: So when I hear you call yourself a piece of

821
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 7: used to be, it's you weren't.

822
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 5: But that's but that's it. That's how That's how I feel,

823
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 5: That's how I felt. That's part of may when you.

824
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 7: Work on that part and forgiving yourself and knowing, then

825
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 7: you will trust Jana. Janna is fiercely loyal to you, Michael,

826
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 7: and you need to be willing to share with her

827
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 7: the worst parts of you.

828
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 5: She will not leave.

829
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 7: Well, yes, but if you would have told her, and

830
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 7: you are not a piece of Mike.

831
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: You are not.

832
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 5: I never learned how to trust the truth that trauma.

833
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 7: But it's not on her. She's shown you so much loyalty.

834
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 7: But I also want Jane to when she hears you

835
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 7: call yourself a piece of it breaks my heart. It

836
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 7: must gut her. M or a good guy right right,

837
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 7: But you are a good guy. I hate hearing you

838
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 7: say that about yourself, and I would feel the same

839
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 7: way if Janna criticize herself that way.

840
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 5: I'm just sorry.

841
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 7: You can say that, say it to her.

842
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 6: I am sorry I didn't handle it the way that

843
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 6: we agreed upon and handle it the right way for myself,

844
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 6: for you, and for both of us. I'm sorry that

845
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 6: the damage that something like again that seems so simplistic

846
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 6: can cause.

847
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 3: I hear you.

848
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 2: I just am having a hard time with you saying

849
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: that you were gonna tell me, because it's like you

850
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: know't how many times I've heard it, But I was

851
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 2: gonna tell you, absolutely, But so I'm like, you deleted it,

852
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,399
Speaker 2: like just own that you weren't gonna say you don't

853
00:47:58,400 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 2: want any part of it, that you just deleted it.

854
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 2: I don't I just the saying that you were gonna

855
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 2: tell me about it is the part that I'm just like,

856
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 2: I do not buy And I don't blame you for

857
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: not wanting to tell me, not one in that life.

858
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:10,959
Speaker 2: I don't. But I'm like, I have a heart because

859
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, at times I've heard you say,

860
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 2: but I'm gonna I was gonna tell you about it.

861
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 2: So after twenty times of finding things, I don't believe

862
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 2: that line anymore. I believe you deleting it and just

863
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 2: being like I don't want this life. I do believe that,

864
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 2: and you Step, I get that. I totally would get that.

865
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: But the fact that you're trying to hide behind saying

866
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 2: but you were gonna tell me, I don't get will

867
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: I will not believe you on that. I just don't.

868
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 7: And I can't really hear her, really hear her, because

869
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 7: she's making a really really clear point there, and I understand.

870
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 2: It, like I'm totally giving you the opportunity to be like,

871
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 2: you're right, and I you know, even though I said

872
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 2: I was going to tell you you're right, that is

873
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 2: a lie. Maybe my intentions sure were, but I probably wasn't.

874
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 2: That would make more sense to me.

875
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 5: That that I can agree with before when I hear

876
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 5: you before, when we talked about it, it seemed black

877
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 5: and white, and I I didn't want to like challenge

878
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 5: my own integrity of just outright admitting that I wouldn't.

879
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 5: My intention was absolutely to bring it up because I

880
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 5: know that was the right thing to do with it.

881
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 2: You think in your heart of hearts you were going

882
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 2: to bring it up.

883
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 5: I don't know.

884
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 2: Now that's an honest answer. I'm like that. I can

885
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 2: actually like the question.

886
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 5: My intention and plan was to but like you said,

887
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 5: like you just asked, I don't know.

888
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 7: Do you know why you lied just now saying when

889
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 7: you say I was going to tell you and jam At,

890
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 7: that's because I doesn't believe.

891
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 5: Because I believe that I do, because of the work

892
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,959
Speaker 5: that I've been doing, the work that I am trying

893
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 5: to do, I like to believe that I would default

894
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,919
Speaker 5: and do the right thing. I don't think there's any answer. Yeah,

895
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 5: I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that.

896
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: No, that's a fair answer, or are you really going

897
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 2: to call perhaps on Monday?

898
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 5: That was my intention? Absolutely, that was that was my intention. Again,

899
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 5: but to answer it, I like to think so that

900
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 5: was my intention, But I don't know. I don't know

901
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:26,959
Speaker 5: if I would have woken up this morning and followed through,

902
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 5: I don't.

903
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: Know, And it wouldn't have bothered you at all. It

904
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 2: would just it's out of sided and mind you just

905
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 2: deleted it and whatever.

906
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,959
Speaker 5: I can't speak for the situation. I can't go through

907
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 5: and say if this would have happened, if that would hapen.

908
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 5: All I know is that when I deleted it is

909
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 5: because I didn't want any part of it. Now, this

910
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 5: is where I feel like you're trying to trap me

911
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 5: into saying something. See I told you this, I told you.

912
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 2: No, it's just because it's that's you wouldn't have told me.

913
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 2: And I know that. So I just really want to

914
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 2: be done. I'm closing off guys. Sorry, No, that's okay.

915
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 7: I don't want I want you guys to take a breath.

916
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 7: I'm a little nervous about you guys, just like.

917
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: No, it's fad. We got our kids, so we'll just

918
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 2: go our separate ways and be fine.

919
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 7: What can we do for you, both of you? Like

920
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 7: if I was as brave as both of you to

921
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 7: tell you the ways that I understand what both of

922
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 7: you are saying, Like It's really important because so many

923
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 7: people can relate, even if it's a different example. It's

924
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 7: really powerful. Like I feel truly for both of you

925
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 7: right now, truly hope and I hear you both and

926
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 7: I believe you.

927
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 5: I hope in next week when people listen to this

928
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 5: that they understand it's this is real. And that's why

929
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 5: we share is because we know that there's other people

930
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 5: out there going through either the exact same situation or

931
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 5: like you said, amy different topic but similar, similar details.

932
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 7: And I under stand to make it go away, make

933
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 7: it go away, And I understand so much of what

934
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 7: Janna feels so much. That's why it's like there's no

935
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 7: answer because you're it's I get it, and you do

936
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 7: need time. We love you guys so much.

937
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 2: Let me bite

938
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 6: H