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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grassoe from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: It's bound to be one of the most sensational criminal

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Speaker 1: trials of British socialite. Delaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's former girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: will be tried on sex trafficking charges. Maxwell played a

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Speaker 1: critical role in helping Epstein to identify a friend and

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Speaker 1: groom minor victims for abuse. In some cases, Maxwell participated

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Speaker 1: in the abuse herself. As alleged. Maxwell and Epstein had

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Speaker 1: a method. We've been discreetly keeping tabs on Maxwell's whereabouts

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Speaker 1: as we worked this investigation, and more recently we learned

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Speaker 1: she had slithered away to a gorgeous property in New Hampshire,

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Speaker 1: continuing to live a life of privilege while her victims

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Speaker 1: live at the trauma inflicted upon them years ago. In

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Speaker 1: announcing the charges, acting US Attorney Audrey Strauss and Assistant

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Speaker 1: FBI Director Bill Sweeney painted a grim picture of Maxwell's

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Speaker 1: alleged role in Epstein's sex trafficking ring, Joining me as

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Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor Robert Mints, a partner McCarter, and English

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Speaker 1: Bob tell Us about the charges against Maxwell Delayne. Maxwell

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Speaker 1: was charged in the seventeen cage indictment. She faces up

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Speaker 1: to thirty five years in federal prison, and she's basically

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Speaker 1: charged with aiding and the betting and assisting Jeffrey Epstein,

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Speaker 1: who has since committed suicide while he was awaiting trial

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Speaker 1: for his own sex trafficking charges, in luring miners to

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein's far away island in the Caribbean and other

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Speaker 1: places around the world so that he could use them

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Speaker 1: for sex trafficking purposes. Maxwell's defense has said that Maxwell

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Speaker 1: has become a substitute for Epstein. So how does Maxwell

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Speaker 1: distance herself from Epstein during trial? Well, that's going to

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Speaker 1: be the challenge for Glenn Maxwell and her lawyers at trial.

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Speaker 1: She's a socialized daughter of a British publishing Pikes and

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Speaker 1: Robert Maxwell, and basically has now been linked to Epstein

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Speaker 1: in his efforts to lure underage girls into his orbit,

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Speaker 1: and it's a legs that she was a key participant

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Speaker 1: in that, in some cases finding the girls for Epstein

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Speaker 1: and in other cases luring them to participate in these

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Speaker 1: sex trafficking acts. So the challenge for her is going

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Speaker 1: to be to try to distance herself from the act

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Speaker 1: of Epstein, which will essentially be unchallenged and somehow convinced

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Speaker 1: jurors that she was not a knowing accomplice in this

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Speaker 1: type of criminal activity. Of course, it offended has a

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Speaker 1: Fifth Amendment right not to take the stand, but in

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Speaker 1: order to prove that defense does she almost have to

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Speaker 1: take the stand. Taking the stand is always a risky proposition,

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Speaker 1: and I think in this particular case it will be

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Speaker 1: especially challenging. My guesses her lawyers will keep her off

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Speaker 1: a stand because prosecutors will have so much ammunition to

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Speaker 1: try to cross examine her with to prove that she

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Speaker 1: knew exactly what Epstein was doing and was a key

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Speaker 1: component of his ability to try to find these young

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Speaker 1: girls and lure them into his world of sex trafficking.

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Speaker 1: Maxwell is being held in a New York jail pending

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Speaker 1: trial after a judge called her a flight risk. Now

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Speaker 1: as far as the biggest criminal trial involving business in

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Speaker 1: former Goldman Sachs managing director Roger Ing will be tried

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn Federal Court in March on charges of bribery

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Speaker 1: and money laundering in the biggest foreign bribery case in

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Speaker 1: US enforcement history. Goldman agreed to pay billions of dollars

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Speaker 1: in criminal and civil penalties to the US in October

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Speaker 1: for its role in the scandal as part of a

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Speaker 1: deferred prosecution agreement. Tell us about the case. Roger and

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Speaker 1: will be tried on March sts on chargecy broke US

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Speaker 1: anti bribery laws by helping a all led by Malaysians

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Speaker 1: and then see her Joe Low steal billions of dollars

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Speaker 1: from Malaysian state investment funds one m d D and

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Speaker 1: kick back some of that money to officials. Now Ing

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Speaker 1: is the first person to go to trial in the

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Speaker 1: US on that scandal. But Golden Sacks has already agreed

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Speaker 1: to pay billions of dollars in civil and criminal penalties

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Speaker 1: for its in involvement. And one of the keys to

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Speaker 1: that trial is going to be informer boss Kim Lester,

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Speaker 1: who has already paid guilty and is expected to testify

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Speaker 1: against him at the trial. Now, when you have a

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Speaker 1: co operator like that on the stand, the defense will

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Speaker 1: usually tell the jury you can't trust this testimony because

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Speaker 1: he got a deal to testify. But don't juries usually

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Speaker 1: believe these co operating witnesses In most cases, Yeah, cooperating

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Speaker 1: witnesses are absolutely integral to most complex financial fraud prosecutions

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Speaker 1: that are brought by the Department of Justice. These cases

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Speaker 1: are just too complicated for prosecutors to bring to jurors

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Speaker 1: based solely on documents, which can often be ambiguous or

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Speaker 1: difficult to understand. And so what we're seeing in this

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Speaker 1: case is not at all unusual where prosecutors have cut

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Speaker 1: a deal with somebody who they view as less culpable

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Speaker 1: but still involved in the criminal conspiracy in order to

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Speaker 1: take jurors by the hand and lead them through this

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Speaker 1: complex financial fraud. This is somebody who prosecutors will say

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Speaker 1: was an eye witness and a participant in this activity

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Speaker 1: and will be able to outline for jurors the criminal

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Speaker 1: conduct and the knowing and willful wrongful nature of the

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Speaker 1: conduct of the defendant in this case, Rider Ng. How

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Speaker 1: will Goldman's admission of its role in the scandal play

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Speaker 1: into the trial. The government will likely keep the trial

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Speaker 1: primarily focused on the conduct of rider Ng, but they

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Speaker 1: could call witnesses from Goldman Sachs to talk about the

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Speaker 1: admission by a Goldman of its own role in this

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Speaker 1: criminal activity. Elizabeth Holmes, the founder of Pharaonos, reigned briefly

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Speaker 1: as the world's youngest female, self made billionaire and a

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Speaker 1: Silicon Valley star over her promise to revolutionize blood testing.

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Speaker 1: Holmes will be tried on March nine for allegedly defrauding

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Speaker 1: invastors out of hundreds of millions of dollars. She settled

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Speaker 1: a civil suit with the Securities and Exchange Commission after

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Speaker 1: deposition in seventeen, first broadcast by ABC News is the

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Speaker 1: statement that Farness currently offers more than two hundred and

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Speaker 1: its wrapping up to offer more than one thousand of

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Speaker 1: the most commonly ordered blood diagnostic tests hall without the

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Speaker 1: new first fringe. Is that statement correct? I don't think

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Speaker 1: it is. I've been talking with former federal prosecutor Robert Mints,

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Speaker 1: a partner mcarter in English. So, Bob, what do we

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Speaker 1: expect from Holmes trial? This is going to be one

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Speaker 1: of the most fascinating trials that we're going to see

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Speaker 1: in the upcoming year. Elizabeth Holmes was criminally charged in

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Speaker 1: June with defrauding investors following the clap of her blood

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Speaker 1: testing startup. The central issue in this case is that

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Speaker 1: Holmes promoted a finger prick blood testing machine. I was

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Speaker 1: going to absolutely revolutionize healthcare. It was going to replace

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Speaker 1: vials of blood drawn from people in order to run

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Speaker 1: the vast spectrum of blood testing that everybody undergoes when

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Speaker 1: they go to the doctor or at the hospital, and

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Speaker 1: it was going to replace that with only a tiny

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Speaker 1: prick of blood from which all of the same test

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Speaker 1: could be run. So it was something that attracted the

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Speaker 1: attention of Silicon Valley's most prominent investors, and money poured

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Speaker 1: in from all over the world, making Elizabeth Holmes the

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Speaker 1: youngest female self made billionaire. There's been some speculation that

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Speaker 1: Holmes might try to push the blame onto her former boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: who was the president of parah Nos and who will

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Speaker 1: be trod in a separate trial after hers. Might that

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Speaker 1: work well, whenever there are two people in al in

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Speaker 1: the criminal conspiracy, and in this case, as you mentioned that,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to trial together, so they'll not be

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Speaker 1: seated next to one another. These are going to be

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Speaker 1: separate trials, it's off in the strategy of the defense

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Speaker 1: to try to shift the blame onto the other individual.

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Speaker 1: And so in this case, it wouldn't be surprising if

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Speaker 1: she does try to blame the ex president of the company,

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Speaker 1: who at one time had been her boyfriend for the

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Speaker 1: criminal charges here, and it estantually comes down to a

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Speaker 1: question of whether she was knowingly exaggerating and lying to

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Speaker 1: raise money on what was something that was going to

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Speaker 1: revolutionize the blood testing industry. There's also been some indication

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Speaker 1: that Holmes may try, not an insanity defense exactly, but

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Speaker 1: something akin to that. One of the defenses that we

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Speaker 1: are seeing Elizabeth Holmes lawyers floating now is the possibility

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Speaker 1: that she has some type of mental disease or defect

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Speaker 1: or other mental condition that will act as a defense

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Speaker 1: to her intent to commit this crime. But the problem

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Speaker 1: that they're going to face is that she had presented

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Speaker 1: herself to the world as somebody who was extremely well educated,

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Speaker 1: self posited, an affluent, somebody who was in charge of

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Speaker 1: this revolutionary company. And to now say that she had

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Speaker 1: some kind of a mental defects that they say may

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Speaker 1: be based upon some type of sexual abuse at an

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Speaker 1: earlier stage in her life may be an up to

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Speaker 1: all climb. Steve Bannon, the former campaign chief for President

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Speaker 1: Trump and White House chief strategist, is scheduled to go

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Speaker 1: on trial in May in federal court in Manhattan over

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Speaker 1: charges connected with his We Build the Wall group also

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Speaker 1: going on trial with Bannon. Our two businessmen and a

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Speaker 1: disabled military veteran tell us about the charges. Steve Bannon

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Speaker 1: is set to go to trial in May on charges

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Speaker 1: that he and three other men the frauded donors and

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Speaker 1: laundered money in connection with their group We You Build

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Speaker 1: the Wall, which raised billion dollars to fund the private

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Speaker 1: construction of a US border wall. Prosecutors have a leg

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Speaker 1: that Bannon and others used donated funds for lavish personal expenses,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that they plagued that one of these

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Speaker 1: money would go towards building the wall. The charitable entities

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Speaker 1: raised millions of dollars from small donors all over the country,

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Speaker 1: and the government has the legs that Banning received one

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Speaker 1: million dollars from those proceeds and used them solely for

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Speaker 1: personal use. Before Christmas, President Trump pardoned some of his

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Speaker 1: controversial allies, his former campaign chair Paul Manafort, his former

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Speaker 1: national security advisor Michael Flynn, and his longtime friend and

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Speaker 1: confidante Roger Stone, so this trial could be scuttled if

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Speaker 1: Trump decides to pardon Bannon. There is always the possibility

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Speaker 1: that President Trump could, in his final days in office,

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Speaker 1: hard to see Bannon, and that would eliminate the possibility

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Speaker 1: of this trial going forward at all. At this point,

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Speaker 1: there is a Congressman pool Goes Are, a Republican from

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Speaker 1: Arizona who is urging the President to part not only

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Speaker 1: Steve Bannon, but also a local retired Air Force airmen

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Speaker 1: who lost both legs and an arm in the two

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Speaker 1: thousand four rocket explosion in Iraq, and who is considered

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Speaker 1: a where he wrote by many. In the event that

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Speaker 1: pardons aren't granted in connection with this case, the federal

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Speaker 1: case would go away. There still could be the possibility

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Speaker 1: of some state attorney general's office taking up this investigation,

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Speaker 1: but at this point it's been solely handled by the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Attorney's Office, and the pardon would estenctially end the case

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Speaker 1: in its tracks trial. In that case, President Trump faces

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Speaker 1: a number of legal threats that could heat up once

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Speaker 1: he leaves office and loses the protections of the presidency,

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Speaker 1: But is it highly unlikely that a criminal case against

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Speaker 1: him will be ready to go to trial in there's

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Speaker 1: obviously a great deal of uncertainty about any possible criminal

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Speaker 1: charges that may be brought against President Trump once he

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Speaker 1: leaves office. The most active investigations of which we are

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Speaker 1: aware are the Manhattan District Attorney's Office and the New

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Speaker 1: York Attorney General's Office, but it's highly unlikely that any

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Speaker 1: of those cases, if in fact they materialized into actual

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Speaker 1: criminal charges, would happen in the one trial we may

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Speaker 1: see in one involving President Trump is the defamation lawsuit

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Speaker 1: brought by New York advice columnist Gene Carroll, where she

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Speaker 1: accused President Trump of lying when she accused him of

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Speaker 1: raping her. In the President Trump has said that he

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Speaker 1: has the absolute right to pardon himself. If he does

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Speaker 1: pardon himself, well, that face legal challenges that would only

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Speaker 1: pertain to any potential federal charges being brought against him,

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Speaker 1: and at this point there's no indication that a Biden

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice would actually pursue criminal charges against President

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Speaker 1: Trump once he leave his office. A pardon will not

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Speaker 1: have any impact on the ongoing investigation by the New

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Speaker 1: York District Attorney or the New York Attorney General's Office.

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Speaker 1: So while the pardon would be highly controversial and maybe

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Speaker 1: litigated alway after the Supreme Court, as a practical matter,

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Speaker 1: it won't likely affect any cases that could actually be

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Speaker 1: brought against the president, since those would likely be state charges,

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Speaker 1: and a presidential pardon cannot absolved somebody from state criminal liability.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Bob. That's Robert Man's a partner of a carter

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Speaker 1: in English. The federal judiciary and most other federal programs

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Speaker 1: were caught in a political tugue of war over what

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Speaker 1: would be included in the nine hundred billion dollar coronavirus

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Speaker 1: Relief Plan and a separate one point for trillion dollar

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Speaker 1: measure to fund agencies through the end of the fiscal year,

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Speaker 1: and the Judiciary did not farewell, joining me as Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Lawn reporter Madison Alder Madison, what did the judiciary ask

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Speaker 1: for or in emergency relief? The judiciary wanted about thirty

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Speaker 1: seven million in funding that would help them do some

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Speaker 1: of the things that they've kind of had to adopt

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic. Um They got a little bit of

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Speaker 1: funding and the Cares Act to do some of that work,

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Speaker 1: like moving to you know, more i T But they

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Speaker 1: said that they needed more, and they told Congress that

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Speaker 1: they needed this in April. But you know, just like

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Speaker 1: so many federal agencies, the judiciary didn't get that kind

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Speaker 1: of relief in this latest package. Did it get any

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Speaker 1: relief in the latest package. It didn't get any relief

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Speaker 1: for coronavirus. It did get funding increase for the remainder

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Speaker 1: of the fiscal year, and that funding increased about three percent.

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Speaker 1: It's still lower than what they had asked for, and

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Speaker 1: they say this is going to be a difficult ear

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Speaker 1: for them, but they did get an increase in that funding.

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Speaker 1: But as far as the relief that they requested specifically

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Speaker 1: for the pandemic, that wasn't part of this package. Explain

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Speaker 1: what some of the additional costs have been for federal

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Speaker 1: courts during the pandemic. Well, they say, some of these

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Speaker 1: additional costs are, you know, defender organizations and courts have

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Speaker 1: needed to do things during the pandemic, like adapting to

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Speaker 1: online ways of doing things that they used to do

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Speaker 1: in person. Uh So a lot of in court activities

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Speaker 1: are now online. And you know, they've also had to

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Speaker 1: equip their courthouses to bring people back in safely when

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Speaker 1: they can do that with flexiglass and all kinds of

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Speaker 1: different filtration systems. So there are additional expenses that they have,

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Speaker 1: you know, endured during the pandemic. And there are opping

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Speaker 1: for money to be able to afford that they have

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Speaker 1: less than they need. Through September one, has there been

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Speaker 1: any response from the members of Congress or Congressional Aids

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Speaker 1: about why this happened. Congressional Aids say that this funding

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Speaker 1: package didn't have any fundings for agencies related to and

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Speaker 1: that cost that that wasn't part of this negotiation. Um

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Speaker 1: Democrats in their bill from October had some funding for

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Speaker 1: the judiciary, but through the negotiation process that funding just

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Speaker 1: wasn't in this round. And the Judiciary said that they're

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Speaker 1: already looking to re up this request reevaluate it next

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Speaker 1: year because they need this funding. Maddie, where did the

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Speaker 1: court stand Because there was a time when it seemed

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Speaker 1: like they might be opening back up, and now we've

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Speaker 1: had this renewed surge of COVID what's happening in the

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Speaker 1: federal courts? So you're right, during the summer the courts

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Speaker 1: were really opening back up. A lot of them were

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Speaker 1: starting jury trials again, which is is probably one of

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Speaker 1: the most difficult things courts of how to do, is

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Speaker 1: in a lot of cases completely halt jury trials. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, because that is the most difficult thing to

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Speaker 1: move to an online environment. Only one court that we

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Speaker 1: know of has done an online or or virtual jury trial. Um,

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Speaker 1: so that's been the most difficult thing. And and they

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Speaker 1: really started to across the country. See we'd see more

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Speaker 1: courts doing this, more courts trying it out to bring

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Speaker 1: people into the courts, to keep them socially distanced, to

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Speaker 1: keep them wearing masks and with plexiglass, and to try

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Speaker 1: to get the started back up. But with the resurgence

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Speaker 1: in coronavirus, a lot of courts have had to halt

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Speaker 1: these activities again, you know. And in one of the

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Speaker 1: federal courts in Chicago, for example, we saw a lot

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Speaker 1: of infections happened inside the courthouse and and they had

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Speaker 1: to shut everything down again and and halt jury trials,

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Speaker 1: halt in person activities. We saw in the Eastern District

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Speaker 1: of Texas there was a case where a trial was

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Speaker 1: going on and and multiple people jurors, lawyer, a court

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Speaker 1: staff member all came down with with coronavirus. So, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we saw courts really experiencing what it was

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Speaker 1: like to be operating in person while the virus was

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Speaker 1: still very active. And I think that may a lot

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Speaker 1: of courts kind of take a step back and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, go back to where we were before the

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Speaker 1: summer um. So right now we're we're kind of at

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Speaker 1: that standstill again, and I think courts are just monitoring

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Speaker 1: the numbers and and looking for when they can really

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Speaker 1: start to reopen again. I mean, is there any indication

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Speaker 1: of what the backlog of cases is like at this point.

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Speaker 1: A lot of courts have been able to schedule different

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Speaker 1: jury trials. When they were able to open, they were

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Speaker 1: able to put things on the schedule, and for a

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Speaker 1: lot of courts that has been really crucial because a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases settled before they go to trial, so

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Speaker 1: just putting something on a calendar was helpful for them

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Speaker 1: to get something to settle um or you know, to

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Speaker 1: resolve it self, and that significantly reduces the amount of

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Speaker 1: the backlog, the jury trial backlogs that there is. Some

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Speaker 1: courts haven't been able to go that far though. Some

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Speaker 1: courts have not been able to even put a schedule

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Speaker 1: together because they can't based on the health situation in

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Speaker 1: their area, they can't feasibly think about getting people into

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Speaker 1: the courtroom in you know, the next few weeks, which

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Speaker 1: is you know, how they would create the schedule, So

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Speaker 1: those courts have probably more of a of a backlog.

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Speaker 1: But as soon as courts are able to put something

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Speaker 1: on the schedule, it's really helpful because those cases can

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Speaker 1: start to move forward and they can work themselves out,

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Speaker 1: and then it's much less daunting than it looked like beforehand.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I think really most of the backlogs

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Speaker 1: that we're looking at right now is those jury trials.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, jury trials and a lot of civil cases,

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Speaker 1: but you know, still some criminal cases in areas where

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Speaker 1: they haven't been able to schedule things, so medicine, there

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Speaker 1: are some really high profile trials coming up in for example,

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Speaker 1: the trial of Elizabeth Holmes, the former CEO of Sara

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Speaker 1: nos and the trial of Glenn Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's former girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: And with the pandemic, I wonder if even those scheduled

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Speaker 1: trials may not happen because US events, lawyers will probably

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Speaker 1: want a full blown trial and nothing short of that.

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Speaker 1: That's I think a question or a lot of litigator's minds,

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Speaker 1: it's a question on a lot of judges minds, because

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Speaker 1: it really does depend on whether or not the parties

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Speaker 1: can agree on a different format and in those high

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Speaker 1: profile cases, it's just not very likely that you're going

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Speaker 1: to get the parties to agree to a virtual trial.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the virtual logation that we've seen so

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Speaker 1: far is in Texas. There was in a traffic case.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was in a criminal traffic case. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the Western District of Washington where they

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Speaker 1: did a virtual jury trial. They're only doing them in

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Speaker 1: civil cases. So it will definitely be interesting to see

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Speaker 1: how the virus continues to impact some of those larger cases.

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Speaker 1: I'll have judges been handling the pandemic and what kind

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Speaker 1: of an effect has it had on them personally. For

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Speaker 1: some judges, the pandemic has been really difficult. I booked

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Speaker 1: to Jeremy Focal, judge Jeremy Focal, who is at the

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Speaker 1: Berkeley Judicial Institute. He used to be a federal judge.

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Speaker 1: He used to be the director of the Federal Judicial Center,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of the education arm of the judiciary,

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Speaker 1: and and he has partnered up with another Berkeley professor

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Speaker 1: to present a kind of seminar for judges to help

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Speaker 1: them deal with some of the um the effects of

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Speaker 1: the pandemic on their well being. Um, you know, he

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Speaker 1: was explaining that, uh, the pandemic has been especially hard

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Speaker 1: for judges because they're already in kind of an isolated position.

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Speaker 1: As a judge, you may make a lot of your

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Speaker 1: decisions on your own. Um, the colleagues that you might

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Speaker 1: have been able to share some of the decision making

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Speaker 1: issues with are now far away from you. You can't

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Speaker 1: go down the hall and talk to them. So already

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Speaker 1: isolating job got even more isolated during the pandemic. And

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Speaker 1: you know, judges are are like everyone else. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: I spoke to a judge on the Appellate Court in

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Speaker 1: California and she was telling me that this is, you know,

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Speaker 1: something that judges have been feeling for a while that

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Speaker 1: has been kind of exacerbated by the pandemic. That's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's the isolation, but it's also in combination with coronavirus

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Speaker 1: and all of the stress and anxiety that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have. UM. So this seminar that Judge Fogol

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Speaker 1: is presenting is giving people tips like using meditation or

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Speaker 1: gratitude to kind of deal with some of those emotions

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Speaker 1: that um, I think a lot of people are having

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Speaker 1: right now. And it's just been really hard for judges

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Speaker 1: to kind of adapt their job to that home environment

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Speaker 1: and deal with all of those emotions at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes people see a judge as someone who's above it all,

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Speaker 1: who doesn't suffer the same kind of problems that the

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Speaker 1: rest of us do. So it's important just to recognize

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Speaker 1: the problems that judges have, especially in this isolation where

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Speaker 1: they don't have colleagues to talk to and judge. Wellness

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Speaker 1: was already a focus in some of the circuits. Tell

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Speaker 1: us about that. Yeah, it's so before the pandemic even started. UH,

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Speaker 1: circuits were focusing on this. UH at their conferences. They

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Speaker 1: were having seminars on on wellness and well being. And

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Speaker 1: the pandemic has has kind of speed up that adoption.

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Speaker 1: It's made people more aware of it. And so this

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Speaker 1: perhaps could be something that we see even more circuits

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Speaker 1: and and district courts focusing on, and even you know,

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Speaker 1: state courts as well, UM focusing on how to make

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Speaker 1: sure the members of the judiciary are helping themselves and

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Speaker 1: helping themselves make these decisions. Was meditation the main focus

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Speaker 1: of the presentations, you know, I think I think it

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Speaker 1: was part of it, UM, but one of the judges

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Speaker 1: I talked to who was a participant in the presentations

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Speaker 1: said that gratitude was also a big part of the presentation.

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Speaker 1: You know, learning to express gratitude and be grateful for

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Speaker 1: the situation you're in, um, and kind of recognize the

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Speaker 1: good parts of of you know, your your life and UM,

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Speaker 1: I think that was also a big part of it.

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Speaker 1: So it's just giving people the tools, I think, and

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Speaker 1: and it's also kind of a recognition that these judges

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Speaker 1: aren't alone, that other people are feeling the exact same way,

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Speaker 1: and that their colleagues are feeling the exact same way.

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Speaker 1: Just to be able to help them, you know, realize

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Speaker 1: that this is a normal emotion that they can have

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Speaker 1: and learn to deal with. What really hit me in

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Speaker 1: your story was the loss that many judges have suffered

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Speaker 1: with colleagues dying, and particularly in Georgia. Georgia was really

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Speaker 1: hard hit. Yeah, Georgia lost several judges UM staff members

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic and that's just been an added stress

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Speaker 1: on top of on top of everything else is you know,

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Speaker 1: some judges are still having to go back into the

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Speaker 1: court to do some in person work. UM. You know

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Speaker 1: that that hasn't stopped completely, Uh, to you know, go

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Speaker 1: back into the court to get one thing done and

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Speaker 1: then do the rest of your work from home, and

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Speaker 1: that can be that can be scary for a lot

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Speaker 1: of judges, you know, especially if they're in a higher

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Speaker 1: risk category for the virus. And then that's compounded by

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Speaker 1: the fact that some courts have lost staff members, they

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Speaker 1: have lost colleagues, and um, in Georgia as that's been

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Speaker 1: particularly felt when they lose colleagues, the news of that

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Speaker 1: makes people afraid to come into the courthouse, right, Um.

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Speaker 1: That was that was something that we heard from from

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Speaker 1: you know, people in Georgia, is that people could be scared,

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Speaker 1: jurors could be potentially scared to come into the courthouse

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Speaker 1: when when they hear about these things. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's another reason why courts are being careful to try

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Speaker 1: to shut down there, uh, in person proceedings and halt

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Speaker 1: jury trials if something like this happens, because you don't

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Speaker 1: want to put jurors in in the position of having

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Speaker 1: to come into the courthouse. You know, somewhat at the

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Speaker 1: National Center for Courts explain it to me a while ago. Uh,

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Speaker 1: courts aren't nails along, They're not restaurants. You're not coming

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Speaker 1: into a court voluntarily typically, and so courts kind of

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Speaker 1: have a unique role in this situation because when they

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Speaker 1: required if some someone to come in, they're really requiring

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Speaker 1: them to come in. So they need to make sure

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Speaker 1: that they are keeping everyone's safety in mind. And that

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Speaker 1: means the judges, that means to staff, and that also

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Speaker 1: means litigants and jurors and people like that. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for being on the Bloomberg Last Show, Madison. That's

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law reporter Madison Alder and that's it for the

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Speaker 1: edition of the Bloomberg Lawn Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for listening, and remember you can always get

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Speaker 1: the latest legal news on our Bloomberg laun podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your favorite podcasts. And please listen to the Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Launch Show every weeknight at ten p on Eastern on

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio Ye