1 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: for joining me for session three eighty eight of the 12 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: Therapy from My Life Girls podcast. We'll get right into 13 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: our conversation afterword from our sponsors, whether it's an essay 14 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: on last night's viral moment, a deep dive into a 15 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: favorite celebrities career, our hot take that sets social media 16 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: on fire. Cultural critique is something that helps us analyze, 17 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: question and understand the world around us. But what makes 18 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: a good piece of criticism and why do we sometimes 19 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: embrace it or resist it so strongly? Joining me to 20 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: talk intimately about the state of cultural criticism is journalists 21 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: writer and care worker jayworthm. You may know Jay as 22 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: a staff writer for The New York Times magazine, where 23 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: they co hosted the podcast Still Processing, a weekly show 24 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: about pop culture, television, films, books, music, and the Internet. 25 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: Jay is also a sound healer, reikie practitioner, and herbalists 26 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: oriented toy healing, justice in Liberation. During our conversation, we 27 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: discussed the role of the critic in our society, how 28 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: to distinguish between a care censored versus a bad faith critique, 29 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: and the ways in which platforms like Twitter and TikTok 30 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: have made criticisms so accessible in both good and bad ways. 31 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please 32 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: share it with us on social media using the hashtag 33 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: TVG in Session, or join us over in the sister 34 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 1: Circle to talk more about the episode. You can join 35 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's 36 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: our conversation. Well, Jinna, thank you so much for joining 37 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: us today. I'm so excited to chat with you same. 38 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: I'm so honored love Therapy for Black Girls, big admire 39 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 2: of you, doctor Joy, and just excited to see where 40 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: the convo goes. 41 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 42 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely so I wonder if you could get us 43 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: started by telling us when you were younger, what did 44 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: you envision your being? How did you grow up to 45 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: become one of the most prominent cultural critics of our time. 46 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, am I one of the most prominent. 47 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: I gotta think. 48 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: About it in my mind. 49 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: Okay, I'll take it from your perspective. I'm just like, 50 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: there are some real heavy hitters out there these days. So, 51 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: but you know, when I was little, I didn't really 52 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 2: think about a career. I'm not sure that I had 53 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: a really clear idea of what I wanted to be 54 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 2: or what I wanted to do. When I was in 55 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 2: elementary school, I told my teachers that I wanted to 56 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 2: be a baseball player. I was very obsessed with the 57 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: Baltimore Oriols, which was the local team from where I 58 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: grew up in Virginia. So my dad would take me 59 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 2: to those games, and I don't know, I thought that 60 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: would be something I could do. Who knows. And then 61 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: later in life I felt like I had to choose 62 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: something that would lead to quote a kind of success, 63 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: something successful. So I thought about being a doctor. But 64 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: I also enjoyed science. I enjoyed medicine. I enjoyed the 65 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: research aspect of it, and so I fell into writing 66 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: pretty accidentally and only became a cultural critic after years 67 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: of being a reporter. And I feel like I'm still 68 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: coming into that role for myself, I am honest. 69 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 3: M M. 70 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 1: You know, rumor hands it that you initially turned down 71 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: your job at the Times because you didn't think that 72 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: you were qualified. So can you tell us more about Yeah. 73 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. At the time, I was living in San Francisco 74 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 2: and I was working full time as a waitress in 75 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 2: a restaurant, which I love doing, and the people I 76 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: worked for loved me too, and they wanted me to 77 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: help them open up another restaurant. So I felt like 78 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 2: at that point in my time, I was really at 79 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 2: a crossroads of life, Like I could either stay in 80 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: the hospitality industry, which I love and actually really hope 81 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: to get back to someday, and to continue managing the 82 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: restaurant that I was working at and help the owners 83 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: expand to new properties, which who knows what that would 84 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 2: have entailed for me. But at the same time, I 85 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,559 Speaker 2: was interning and freelancing on nights and weekends as a writer, 86 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 2: but very very nascent baby stuff like party listings, tiny interviews, 87 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 2: really small write ups. I mean I really did not 88 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 2: have a point of view and a perspective. But I 89 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: was also writing about not social media as we know 90 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 2: it now, but just very early cultural trends on social media, 91 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: so what people were talking about on message boards, like 92 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: early iPhone stuff. And I got recruited by The New 93 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: York Times and it was a series of interviews over 94 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: several weeks, and at the end of it they were like, 95 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: do you want to come basically be a blogger for us? 96 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so amazing, Like, 97 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: thank you so much for thinking of me. And I 98 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 2: was like, I am not at this level. Ultimately, there's 99 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 2: no way I can do this. Thank you so much 100 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: for the opportunity. And then someone who had become my 101 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: editor called me and was like, we got your email 102 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: basically like delete it and write us another one saying 103 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 2: that you accept the job. We'll help you figure it out. 104 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, you know, I was just 105 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 2: sort of like I actually didn't question it. I'm from 106 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: the East Coast, but I had been living in California 107 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 2: for a couple of years. I was ready to come home. 108 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 2: I was ready for something new. I was ready to 109 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: start a new phase of my life, and so I 110 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 2: was just like, you know what, let's just see what happens. 111 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: Like the worst thing that can happen is it won't 112 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,679 Speaker 2: work out. And that was, however, many years. 113 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: Ago, all right, and the rest is history, as they say, 114 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: right exactly. So I appreciate you saying that you feel 115 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: like you're still growing into your role as a critic. 116 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: Can you explain it to us, like you would maybe 117 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: a teen year old, what actually is criticism? And it 118 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: felt like you made a distinction of saying I was 119 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: a journalist and then I became a critic. What's the difference? 120 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: Can you explain criticism to us? 121 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 2: Well, let me put it this way. These are really specific, 122 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: archetypal categories, and I think that the best writing actually 123 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: combines both of them, Like I really appreciate and I 124 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: try to do it my own work, to try to 125 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 2: blend reportage and some journalistic integrity along with criticism, Like 126 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 2: I kind of want everything to live together. But when 127 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,799 Speaker 2: I was a reporter, it wasn't really about what I thought. 128 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 2: It was about information, what facts are, which is still 129 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 2: sometimes debatable, but it was just like delivering the information 130 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: as directly and cleanly and concisely as possible. It was 131 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: breaking news, news stories, things that are deemed newsworthy. It 132 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: was not about deep reflections and trying to figure out 133 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 2: what a piece of art or a moment or something 134 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: a pop cultural means in the greater significance to our time. 135 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,559 Speaker 2: That was so clunky, I want to say that again. 136 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: But I see the distinction as journalism being just direct reporting, 137 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 2: delivering informations tied to breaking news or something that's very newsworthy, 138 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: and just delivering the information with some quotes in a 139 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 2: very streamlined, concise type way. And I see criticism as 140 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: dissecting that information or analyzing it right, And it's not 141 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 2: necessarily tied to the news, although of course it can be. 142 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: But I think criticism involves art usually, and what art 143 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: means is a really broad category and getting even broader today, 144 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 2: which is so exciting. But a work of art, something 145 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: of pop culture, a piece of music, a celebrity, something 146 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: that's going viral, and trying to really parse out why 147 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 2: this is popular and what it means about our culture, right, 148 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: and it doesn't even have to be popular, but like, 149 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: maybe why it's garnered someone's attention and trying to really 150 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: understand what that means. I think about criticism as being 151 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 2: a sieve, right, like looking at everything that's happening and 152 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: filtering through it to highlight the things that matter and 153 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 2: why and what they say about our culture as a whole. 154 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: So do you think that criticism has to be like 155 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: long form writing or can criticism be like just a tweet? 156 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: Oh my god, Yeah, the best criticism is just tweets. 157 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I think a lot of mean culture is criticism, 158 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 2: if I'm totally honest. I mean, I'm sure that what 159 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: makes some people happy. But people do really interesting criticism 160 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: on social media too, right, Like on Instagram, Hilton Alls 161 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: is constantly writing up very you know, short film reviews 162 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 2: and just short, pitthy observations that I think sometimes are 163 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 2: as enjoyable as his long form pieces in The New Yorker. 164 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 2: I think it can live anywhere. It's really about whether 165 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: or not I think it speaks to you and the moment. 166 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: You know, you kind of mentioned that you feel like 167 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: criticism really exists around like art and pop culture and music. 168 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: But I wonder if you can say more about like 169 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: why critics exist in like the role of critique in society, 170 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: especially when so many people see it as negative or purposeless. 171 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 2: That's really interesting to think about. I will say that 172 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: I don't necessarily think criticism as a discipline and as 173 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 2: a style of writing is a category of authorship necessarily 174 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: equals a critique or a negative critique. I think good 175 00:09:54,040 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: criticism presents something familiar in a very unusual way, and 176 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: I think that it adds context, historical context, political context, 177 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: and I think it helps make sense of something and 178 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: perhaps qualifies a feeling of yeah, this didn't sit right 179 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: with me and I don't know why. And then a 180 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: critic writes a piece about something, or you read a 181 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 2: piece of criticism and you're like, oh, this explains why 182 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: those Barbie monologues at the end of the movie made 183 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: me feel weird, you know, or whatever it is, or 184 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 2: why I love them, and this explains it. And I 185 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 2: think that's the work of the critic. I think to 186 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: try to tap into bigger meaning, the bigger meaning that 187 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: happens in artwork and works of art. And I do 188 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: think the role of the critic is to help us 189 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 2: slow down, or maybe I would say the role of 190 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: the critic in twenty twenty four is to help us 191 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: slow down, because anyone who gets a lot of their 192 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: information and lives online to any degree is just really inundated. 193 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: There's just so much to pay attention to. There's so 194 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 2: much happening in the world. There's so much happening politically, 195 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 2: there's so much happening culture. There's so much happening in 196 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: TV and film and fashion and music, plus celebrity culture. 197 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 2: It's really maddening. And I think a good critic helps 198 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 2: us try to connect some of the pieces behind maybe 199 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 2: seemingly disparate events happening, and connects them to a bigger 200 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: thought or a bigger idea, or make some argument, like 201 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 2: a very compelling argument. I do understand the sort of 202 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 2: sensitivity around a feeling like a negative piece of commentary 203 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: will derail an industry or derail a director, But I 204 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: also think there's so many more factors that go into that. 205 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: And I do think that those acts, even though they're 206 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 2: perceived to be antagonistic online, I think they come from 207 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 2: a place of love, usually in respect, a desire to 208 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: see more, a desire to push someone farther. Of course, 209 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 2: it never feels that way, and we are steeped in 210 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,359 Speaker 2: a very particular social media culture right now, where teardowns 211 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 2: and takedowns don't feel that way. They actually just feel 212 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 2: really mean spirited, And so I think the two get 213 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: conflated in ways that maybe aren't always accurate or kind ooh. 214 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: You said so much there, Jay, Where do I even 215 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: want to start in a follow up? So I think 216 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 1: I will start with you said that in twenty twenty 217 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: four you feel like the role of the critic is 218 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: to help us low down, which I think is really 219 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: really important and meaningful. I guess I wonder what do 220 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: you feel like the role was, let's say, in like 221 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, Like, how has the role of the 222 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: critic changed as like technology has advanced. 223 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 2: I think that what we need to practice criticism of 224 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: is expanding. There are plenty of technological advancements happening in 225 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: the nineties. I mean, that's why there were so many 226 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 2: movies in the early two thousands about technology and about 227 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: virtual reality and about AI and trying to understand what 228 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: is happening and what do these changes mean for society 229 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 2: and how should we think about understand the world and 230 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: the future that we're walking into. I mean, Octavia Butler's 231 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 2: books about apocalyptic dystopic realities or being published in the 232 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,959 Speaker 2: late eighties, mid to late eighties, and that's a type 233 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: of criticism. So I do think there've always been critics 234 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 2: who have tried to understand technological advancements. And what I 235 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: would say feels maybe different now is that there's just 236 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 2: a much broader range of things to perform criticism on. 237 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: I mean, you can write dissertations on TikTok, for example, 238 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 2: or Instagram culture. I mean, I think the mistake we 239 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 2: make is when we don't see those areas as being 240 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: reflective of high brower interest in culture, or we try 241 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 2: to separate out what matters and what doesn't matter. I mean, 242 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: I think it all matters because it's all tapping into 243 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: some sort of collective pulse, collective desire, new business models, interests, 244 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 2: ways of thinking, and ways of interacting, and all that, 245 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 2: to me is worth really really analyzing and not just 246 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: reporting on. 247 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: One of my follow up questions for you is how 248 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: do you think platforms like TikTok and Twitter and subsec 249 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: have really leveled the playing field in democratized who gets 250 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: to be a critic. 251 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm always really excited by new mediums and 252 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 2: people that are able to make work on them, and 253 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 2: also the way that people who've done this work for 254 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: many years and decades find new life in new mediums. 255 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 2: I mean, Helpton as is someone who is such an 256 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: esteemed legendary critic at The New Yorker, and just to 257 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: see the way he uses Instagram is so playful and 258 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 2: so fun. There's many examples like that. But I think 259 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,479 Speaker 2: about someone like a Harmony Holiday, who is an incredible 260 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: thinker and a writer and curator, just someone who has 261 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: an incredibly dynamic brain and wants to practice criticism in 262 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: every part of the Internet that she can. And she 263 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: writes for mainstream publications, but I think sometimes her work 264 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: feels incredibly free and unfettered when she's just writing for herself, 265 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: and so you see that material first on substack. There's 266 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: so much capacity and capaciousness for voices, and I love 267 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: that there are new ways for people to write, you know, 268 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: and even being someone who's out of legacy media at publication, 269 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: I mean, sometimes it's still hard to push into new 270 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 2: areas of writing because you are coming up against so 271 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 2: much history and legacy and stalwarts in their roles. So 272 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: it can be hard for let's say a new voice 273 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: at the New York Times to break into let's say criticism, right, 274 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: and so if they have a substack or they want 275 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: to practice out on Twitter, I mean, that's a great 276 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: way to get recognized and shift what people think their 277 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: capacities are. I know that was certainly true for me 278 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 2: at the beginning of my career and still is true. 279 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like I'm still pushing and still experimenting, 280 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: and still trying to challenge myself to figure out new 281 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 2: ways my brain wants to work, and new ideas that 282 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 2: I have in the best way for them to be expressed. 283 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, but first a 284 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: quick snippit of what's coming up next week on TVGEN. 285 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 3: From a Buddhist perspective, all people possess basic goodness and 286 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 3: so that is also akin to a strength based counseling 287 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 3: and psychotherapeutic approach. It's our job to reflect that goodness, 288 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: that strength back to them just in case they've forgotten, right, 289 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 3: Because our minds are complicated, we forget right. It's like, 290 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 3: oh yeah, I tackle in the past, Oh yes, I 291 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 3: stood up to x y Z, Oh yes, I am 292 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: able to do X y Z, and when people recognize 293 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 3: that their goodness is being reflected, they believe it. With 294 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: good work, eventually they will live out of it. 295 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: So I just want to go on record as still 296 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: Processing being one of my all time favorite pos. Even still, 297 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: I remember distinctly thinking, so Beachella, I feel was a 298 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: moment because of what it was. But I also remember 299 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: thinking like I cannot wait to hear what Jay and 300 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: Wesley are gonna say about beach Olla, like I really 301 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: want to hear them unpack it. That brings me to 302 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: a question around Beyonce, because it feels like she is 303 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: somebody who generates all this conversation and is a bit 304 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: of a touchy subject when it comes to to criticism, 305 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: and I feel like there are people like you and 306 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: Wesley and others who handle it with such care and 307 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: are clearly a fan but also can approach the critique. 308 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: So how do you think we got to this moment 309 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: in time where it feels like there's such backlash about 310 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: criticism for our faves. 311 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: M I mean, this must have always been happening. I mean, 312 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 2: it can't just be endemic to right now. And I 313 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 2: think sometimes the Internet because everything is so immediate can 314 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: kind of give the impression that every paradigm that we're 315 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 2: walking into is brand new, And so I think my 316 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 2: mind is struggling right now to think about parallels and 317 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: complimentary moments in time. I'm sure that legendary albums and 318 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 2: artists were panned and critiqued in the decades prior, and 319 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 2: fans were like ritis. But I do think what's new 320 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 2: and unique is that in an era where everything is 321 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: flattened to the same delivery mechanisms, which is to say, 322 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: we see everything in the same place. Let's say on Twitter, 323 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 2: although less so these days, but let's say you know 324 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 2: you're seeing both Beyonce stand accounts and album reviews and 325 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: criticism or critiques of her all compressed into the same space. 326 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 2: It doesn't feel right, although I think it's actually really 327 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: exciting to have that engagement. Although I know it's stressful 328 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 2: for some people. But there does seem to be this 329 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 2: conflation with fandom, and there is a conformity to online fandom, 330 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 2: I think, is what I'm trying to say. That feels 331 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 2: a little intimidating for some people because it can give 332 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 2: the impression that if you don't agree with the mass 333 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: population on an artist or someone like Beyonce, then you 334 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 2: probably shouldn't share your opinion, which I don't think is right. 335 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 2: I don't think that's right at all. But I have 336 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: seen people write really rigorous and strongly worded criticisms of Beyonce, 337 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: which I think all art and artists deserve and are 338 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 2: not immune to. 339 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: Right. 340 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: I don't think anybody's above that degree of criticism. But 341 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 2: there is a feeling of like, why would you say 342 00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 2: anything if you don't have anything good to say? Why 343 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: I think saying thing at all? It's like that old adage, 344 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: and I think that's a little bit of a miscalculation 345 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: of the Internet. But I also think that there's a 346 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 2: reason people sometimes publish these pieces and then disappear, because 347 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 2: they want to say what they want to say, but 348 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 2: not deal with all the repercussions. And I totally understand that. 349 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: So I do think there is an interesting kind of feeling. 350 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 2: I think it's really bold and necessary to be as 351 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: brutally honest, even if you know it won't please people. 352 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: And I mean, I think the job of a journalist 353 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: and the job of a critic is not to make 354 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 2: people happy. I don't love when artists love the thing 355 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 2: that I had to say about their artwork. I mean, 356 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: it's great, but it's not press. That there's a difference 357 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 2: between press and promotion and rigorous journalism. 358 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: And you mentioned earlier that you feel like there is 359 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: this culture of takedown pieces like in pile ons and 360 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: that being different from critique. Can you say more about 361 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: what that line is and what kinds of things people 362 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: should be checking in with themselves about to know that 363 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: they are not crossing the line. 364 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,959 Speaker 2: There is a culture of takedown energy online generally, and 365 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: we see it all the time. I think maybe what's 366 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 2: happening with Ice Spice is a really good example. It's like, 367 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 2: the second there's an opportunity to pile on and be like, 368 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: this person's a piece of trash, then it just happens 369 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 2: very quickly, and all of a sudden, it seems everyone 370 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 2: feels very comfortable saying what they've always thought about someone. 371 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 2: I'm sure you can make a really interesting diagram of 372 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 2: someone's kind of viral fame and then the tipping point. 373 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 2: I think Charlie XCX and her interview and The Cut, 374 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 2: an excellent excellent interview in the Cut, said I just 375 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 2: know there's a tipping point. I'm not stupid. I know 376 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 2: how this works. I'm ready for the takedown, which is 377 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: also really sobering to think of someone being an artist 378 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 2: who's just preparing for people to come for them. It 379 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 2: happened recently with Kilanie, right, Colonie's former partner recently had 380 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: a lot to air out, took to Twitter and Instagram 381 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,239 Speaker 2: to do it, and then Klanie had to respond. But 382 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 2: in the meantime, my for you page on TikTok was 383 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 2: just full of videos of people being like, I never 384 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 2: liked Kilanie and here's what I thought. And so that 385 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: is what I mean when I say pile on culture. 386 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 2: I don't necessarily be a pilon criticism, but there is 387 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 2: this unknowable and unnameable line that can be crossed and 388 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 2: people get got people come for them, and I think 389 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: sometimes that gets conflated with a really strongly worded piece 390 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: of criticism about a popular artist or a popular TV 391 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: show or film or something. I will say that I 392 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 2: think sometimes there's a little bit of a dissonance or 393 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 2: like a lack of awareness around how hard it is 394 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 2: to make things and how complicated it is, and when 395 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 2: you are working on a big project, it's not always 396 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 2: your vision. A to Z that there are managers and 397 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 2: producers and studios, and there are people with vested interest 398 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: in you who have a lot of say in the 399 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: work that you put out, and so you hear all 400 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: the time like, oh, the director wanted this in the film, 401 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: but they weren't able to actually put it in. And 402 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 2: having a lot of people close to me in my 403 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: life who make film and TV, you know, these are 404 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: the tussles that they deal with day in and day out, 405 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: and by the time the thing is done, they're like, 406 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 2: this doesn't even look like the vision, but it's done. 407 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 2: And so then what ends up happening is people take 408 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 2: the director to task, and of course it's their product, 409 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 2: it's their project, it's the product of their mind. But 410 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 2: I think sometimes we forget that they don't have as 411 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: much agency as we like to believe. It's just really 412 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: hard to note and directors aren't usually in a position 413 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: where they can talk about that, so I do think 414 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 2: sometimes some of that gets left out of the process. 415 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: But I also will say that for the vast majority 416 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 2: of the Beyonces of the world, big artists, the big authors, 417 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 2: they really do have a ton of creative control. So 418 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: I think it's all warranted, and I think it's all 419 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: fair game. 420 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: So what suggestions would you have for aspiring writers and 421 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: critics for how to build more confidence in themselves in 422 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: their writing. 423 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this is a great question. I don't 424 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 2: know if you will ever feel confidence in yourself or 425 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: your writing, but you have to keep going anyway. This 426 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 2: is not a business or an industry where anyone gives 427 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 2: you a pat on back. We're not an affirmation culture. 428 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,959 Speaker 2: People might repost your piece, they might like it, they 429 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: might hate it. It's never easy and it doesn't get easier. 430 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 2: But I do think that one sign you can look 431 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 2: for in yourself is do you feel like you have 432 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 2: a point of view? And do you feel like you 433 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 2: have an argument that you can make? And do you 434 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 2: feel like you've got a burning desire to share the 435 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 2: thing that you want to share? And if you do, 436 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 2: then press forward, and even if you don't, just keep trying. 437 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 2: I think the more voices are important, and I think 438 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: more perspectives are important, And it's just a really hard 439 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 2: art to perfect, and I don't actually know anyone who 440 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 2: feels satisfied, even people who've been doing it for decades. 441 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: One Pulitzer is the most lauded in their feels. I 442 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 2: don't know that any of them ever feel totally confident 443 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: in their abilities, but I think that having some fun 444 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 2: with it, feeling drawn to the work and feeling called 445 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: to the work, or all indications that you belong there. 446 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: Beautiful answer. Thank you so much for that. Jay. So 447 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why you are one of my 448 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: favorite cultural critics is that I think that there is 449 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: such care that you often bring to the pieces that 450 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 1: you write. And I'm most immediately thinking about the Britney 451 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: Griner piece, and you mentioned in the caption when you 452 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: shared it on Instagram that you won't share the worst 453 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: bits here. As Christina Sharp reminds, a spectacle is not repaid, 454 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: and I think that that can be a difficult balance 455 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: when so much of it is driven by clicks, right, 456 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: And so I guess I'm wondering, like, how do you 457 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: keep that care ethic as a part of your writing 458 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: and balance that with the needs to try to get 459 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: eyes on your pieces. 460 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I will say that I don't think about eyes 461 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: and clicks, and being embedded at a very large institution 462 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 2: has helped with that, and that's a real benefit I've 463 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 2: never had to think about that for the course of 464 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 2: my career, which is very different than many many other people, 465 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 2: and so I'm very grateful for that. So I don't 466 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: think about that, and I think that just personally, I 467 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: do have my own ethics of care and a moral barometer. 468 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 2: I mean, journalism is inherently a very exploitative business in 469 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 2: the sense that you are constantly asking from people and 470 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 2: doing your best to reflect their lives and their stories. 471 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 2: But no one is ever one hundred percent happy, right 472 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 2: and they won't be because you are reflecting things through 473 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: your own lens. No matter how objective you try to be. 474 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 2: I mean, you're always going to be leaving some of 475 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: yourself on the table, and I think that's a good 476 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 2: thing for the record. But I also think that you 477 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: do have to ask yourself questions. You do have to 478 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: be able to defend choices, you have to be able 479 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: to make choices. And I don't think everyone agrees with me. 480 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 2: I don't think everyone feels that you have to enact 481 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 2: a certain type of care for the word I would 482 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 2: use as your subject or the people that you're writing about. 483 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: And I would say that my ethics of care might 484 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 2: shift if I wasn't writing about a black, gender nonconforming person, 485 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: but because of who Brittany is in the world and 486 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 2: because of what she went through, I came to that 487 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 2: piece knowing that I'm not going to subject this person 488 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 2: to more than they've already been through, and I'm going 489 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: to be very mindful. Yes, I'm here to get the story. 490 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 2: Yes I'm here to have this conversation. But we can 491 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: do things like take breaks, we can spread the interview 492 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: out over a couple of days. We can do it 493 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: in the place that feels most comfortable for you. You 494 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 2: can let me know if we need to go deep 495 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 2: burn another area and pull back on another. I mean, 496 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 2: I was lucky with Brittany because she really really wanted 497 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,719 Speaker 2: to share, and I was grateful and so happy. And 498 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 2: there are a few moments when we just took a 499 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,239 Speaker 2: beat and I could see her getting really worked up. 500 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 2: And there are cameras there, they're filming, there's a lot happening, 501 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 2: there are people in the room, and I'm like, you're 502 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: reliving the worst year of your life, like you don't 503 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 2: have to rush through it. In some cases, you don't 504 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: even have to talk about it. But I think because 505 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: I also do a lot of wellness care work, and 506 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: I've had a lot of trauma informed training and somatic training. 507 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 2: It's like, I feel very attuned when someone I'm talking 508 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 2: to is seeming to be triggered or dissociating or having 509 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 2: a difficult time, and I do feel like it's it 510 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: is my responsibility to pause. Sometimes it's cost to me 511 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 2: stories or information. It's not always the right decision for 512 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: the business, but I think for me as a person 513 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: and as a black generon conforming person who wants to 514 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 2: move with integrity in the world, it's incredibly important to me. 515 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: So yeah, and I love that your work has expanded 516 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: in that way, and I definitely want to talk more 517 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: about the ways that you have to transition in your career. 518 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: But I would also love for you to talk about 519 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: how do you take care of yourself when and there's 520 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: a piece of art or a movie or something that 521 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: brings up difficult topics like grief or trauma, Like how 522 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 1: do you take care of yourself and how do you 523 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: think that impacts what you write as critique? 524 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 2: Oh, this is a really good question. Thank you for 525 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 2: that rigorous inquiry. Yeah, I mean I take care of 526 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 2: myself as a broader practice, like it is just a 527 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: big part of how I live my life. I am 528 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 2: really rigorous about how much sleep I get. I am 529 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: really militant about nourishment. I make sure I get enough 530 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 2: protein and collagen and drink water, and I really take 531 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 2: care of myself. And I did it for years. I 532 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 2: did it for years, and I just was a workaholic 533 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: and I really burned out. And I'm now looking back, 534 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 2: I'm like, Wow, I didn't have capacity, I didn't have patience. 535 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: I wasn't able to maintain intimacy, I wasn't able to 536 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 2: do any self work. My priorities were out of whack. 537 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: I truly believe that it happened the way it was 538 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: supposed to happen, and I guess I was supposed to 539 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 2: work that hard at that time to get here. But 540 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 2: one of the hard lessons I learned during that time 541 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 2: is that you only get one body, and you only 542 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 2: get one life. And I really don't know if there's 543 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,959 Speaker 2: more truth to it than that, but that's all I 544 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: know for now, And so I just didn't want to 545 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 2: sacrifice myself anymore. So my supplement game is really tight. 546 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 2: I get my blood looked at and see what's going on, 547 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: what's deficient, what's moving, what's not moving. I work with 548 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: a nutritionist, I work with an acupuncturist, and all these 549 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: things are yes expensive, and I've had to cut out 550 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 2: other things. Sometimes it's shopping. I don't eat out anymore 551 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 2: because it's just too expensive, and I spend money on 552 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 2: these other categories. I've had to work on a lot 553 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 2: of money, sobriety and money health because I have to 554 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 2: be able to sustain myself and not live in fear 555 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: that I can't take risks in my thinking or my 556 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: creative work. I have to be able to feel like 557 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 2: I have a safety net, which I don't really have 558 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: beyond myself. Many Black Americans don't. So these are all 559 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 2: the things that I think about when I think about care. 560 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 2: And yes, it is exhausting, like sometimes I'm just like, 561 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: caring for myself is a separate, full time job, and 562 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 2: dealing with the American medical care system is a nightmare. 563 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 2: As someone who has chronic health issues and chronic pain, 564 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: I should say, getting claims reimburse I mean, my god, 565 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 2: it's a nightmare. So all of that is like the 566 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: baseline for me right now, and I feel really lucky 567 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 2: because a lot of my close friends also are living 568 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: this way, and some of them do have chronic illness, 569 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: and so it's not an option, but something that's just 570 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: really close to my life, and so I see the 571 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: way it is a priority. It has to be for 572 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 2: several of the black fems in my life who have 573 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 2: chronic illness. And so that's really shaped me and helped 574 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: me think about in some ways, it's ablest to treat 575 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 2: myself like crap because I'm already functioning at a level 576 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: that my friends wish they could, and so I don't 577 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 2: want to squander my health anymore than I already have. 578 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 2: So that's the baseline for me. And then beyond that, 579 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: I try to be really mindful about really intense material. 580 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: Right now, there's a lot happening in the news that's 581 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: really upsetting, and so I do think it's our duty 582 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: to bear witness, and I do think that we have 583 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 2: to really avoid slipping into nihilism and just acceptance of 584 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 2: apocalyptic times. I'm reading this book right now called What 585 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: If We Get It Right? By the Great Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson, 586 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 2: about climate change, and it is such a call to 587 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 2: action against apathy, and I really appreciate her devotion towards 588 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: presence and caring and a recognition that, yeah, it's really 589 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: hard to care, it's really hard to pay attention, and 590 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: we have to do it anyway. We've always had to 591 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 2: do it. It is also our inheritance and our legacy. 592 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 2: So I think what I'm saying is that we just 593 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 2: do what we can, and sometimes it's hard. I mean, 594 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: the Brittany grinder piece really fucked me up, Like I 595 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 2: really was disturbed, and my partner, who is also a 596 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 2: basketball player or was in a former life, she had 597 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 2: a lot of space for me when I was just 598 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: really processing this person's story. And I think it's one 599 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: thing to read about it and one thing to read 600 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,959 Speaker 2: headlines or maybe watch a video even read the article, 601 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 2: but sitting with Brittany, I really felt it and I 602 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 2: feel really porous as a person, which is something I 603 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: like to cultivate. I want to be receptive and open. 604 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 2: But it was really hard to recover from that, and 605 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: the writing of it was cathartic for me in some way, 606 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 2: So I guess I think about it like that. And 607 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 2: the last thing I'll say too, I know I've been 608 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: monologuing for a bit, but I saw A Blink twice 609 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: over the weekend, which is the new thriller directed by 610 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: Zoe Kravitz starring Channing Tatum and Naomi Aki. Yeah, God, 611 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 2: what a talent she plays Freeda in the role. And 612 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 2: it's a pretty merciless film. It has a trigger warning 613 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 2: when you walk into the theater, and it was not 614 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 2: strong enough in my opinion. Like I saw it and 615 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 2: I was like, huh. And I truly go into movies 616 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: not really knowing what they're about. And I was so disturbed. 617 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I really thought it was effective, but I 618 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: really was like affected. And it's something that we're not 619 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: currently making the podcast right now, but it is something. 620 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: If we were, I would be like, we have to 621 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 2: talk about this, and I would have to really prepare 622 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 2: my mental spirit and my emotional well being in order 623 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 2: to do that. So I'd have to sleep a lot 624 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 2: in preparation. I'd have to really take it seriously. And 625 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 2: I will say the last thing for now is that 626 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 2: I live in New York City. I live in Brooklyn, 627 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: and New York is not a place that encourages embodiment, 628 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 2: or encourages stillness, or even really encourages feeling too much 629 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: I think the cost of really being present in the 630 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 2: city is incredibly high. To be present here, you really 631 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: have to engage with the darelicness of our city and 632 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: the kind of powerlessness to fix it. You know, we 633 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: really are experiencing such gross disparity between wealth and class 634 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: and it's really distressing and everyone's so busy, so what 635 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 2: do we do about it? And so combating that really 636 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 2: is an active practice. Being able to fill your feelings 637 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 2: and not stuff them down, which I do because it's 638 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: a survival mechanism and it works. That's something people don't 639 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: tell you dissociation it works, or people do tell you 640 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 2: but they don't want to say it out out, but 641 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 2: it works. It actually really is helpful. But I know 642 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 2: for me that doing that it's not in my value system, 643 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 2: you know, it keeps me from being my true self 644 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 2: and being in the world. So if just for today, 645 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: we're not going to be recording a podcast about blink twice, 646 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: but if that's something that I was going to be doing, 647 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: I would want to enact a lot of care for 648 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 2: myself and for the listeners around that because we kind 649 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 2: of act like just because the world is fast paced 650 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 2: and there's so much violence and mass violence and ongoing 651 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 2: just you know, a barrage of just terrible information constantly 652 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 2: that that should be the norm, and it's not. It 653 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 2: doesn't have to be, and we get to make that 654 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 2: decision for ourselves, you know. 655 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: I love to hear more about, like how episodes of 656 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: stale processing when you were recording came together, because you 657 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: mentioned already that journalism and critique has taken on different 658 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: forms of media even throughout your career, and so you 659 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: started writing and blogging, and then you transitioned into doing 660 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: more podcasting. So how does criticism look different in written 661 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: form versus an audio podcast form. 662 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 2: I wasn't doing a lot of criticism before we started 663 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 2: making the podcast, and I think the podcast evolved quite 664 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 2: a bit while we were working on it, and the 665 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 2: form that seemed to work best was just West and 666 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: I having a conversation pulling in one to three cultural 667 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 2: properties and talking about them, either linking them together with 668 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 2: some sort of significance or building an argument about the 669 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 2: significance of these properties and why they were emerging at 670 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 2: this particular moment of time, and like how to anchor 671 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: it in the moment in time we were speaking to 672 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,320 Speaker 2: I mean, Wesley and I are having dinner to tonight, 673 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 2: And basically it would look a lot like that. We 674 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 2: would meet for a meal, we would talk about what 675 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 2: we're into. I know we're going to talk about Blink 676 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 2: twice tonight. I know we're going to talk about the Deliverance. 677 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll talk about the US Open. And it's 678 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 2: really just what we both want to bring to each other. 679 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 2: And we would always talk about the show as kind 680 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 2: of like a perverted show and tell, you know, or 681 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 2: like bringing the most grotesque or interesting or like weird 682 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 2: things we'd come across to each other and dump them 683 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 2: in each other's lap and then see if there was 684 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: a show out of it. But I think that's how 685 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 2: I really learned how to use my brain in an 686 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: incredibly different way. I mean, getting to study with Wesley 687 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 2: for years was a gift. I mean, he's such a 688 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 2: dynamic thinker and an incredible writer, and I think that 689 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 2: we both found a lot of freedom and audio and 690 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 2: text is very limiting, like language is limiting. When you 691 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 2: get to add tone and texture and intimacy and warmth 692 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 2: and our relationship, I think it changes the context about 693 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 2: what we're discussing and oftentimes we were bringing each other places, 694 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 2: so it allowed for a type of transformation to happen 695 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 2: in a session that you also want to happen on 696 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 2: a page. But I think on the page you're doing 697 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 2: it alone, and in the room, we were doing it 698 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 2: with each other. 699 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: And were you friends before you started doing the podcast together? 700 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:14,479 Speaker 2: Yeah? 701 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: We were, okay, okay, And I mean I think that 702 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: that comes through right, and I think that made it 703 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: even a richer experience because there had already been a 704 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: relationship there. Yeah. Yeah, more from our conversation after the break. 705 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: So I do want to go back and talk a 706 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 1: little bit more about the transition that you've made in 707 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: your career. So you're doing more reiki, practitioner, herbalist and 708 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: a community care worker. Can you tell me more about 709 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: this journey and how you feel like it has influenced 710 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: your writing career. 711 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 2: Sure, First and foremost, I'm writing still for the New 712 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 2: York Times magazine. I'm working on finishing a book called 713 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 2: Work of Body, which is a series of essays about dissociation, 714 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 2: my favorite topic, and that is truly what I'm doing 715 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 2: most of the time, and it's just taking forever, so 716 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 2: it is what it is. But sometime in twenty sixteen 717 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 2: or so, I had stumbled into this art exhibition at 718 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 2: the New Museum in the Lower East Side of New 719 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 2: York and some only legendary sculpturists, I mean, an absolutely 720 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 2: incredible artist had taken over the New Museum and turned 721 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 2: it into a drop in clinic oriented around practices and 722 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 2: pedagogy for wellness and new ways of thinking about health 723 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 2: and the body. I'd say, and she was really inspired 724 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 2: by the Black Panthers and Nean lords who tried to 725 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: offer and subsidize community resources for the people. And they 726 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 2: were sessions on acupuncture and sessions on bodywork, and these 727 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 2: are things that I had read about and didn't have 728 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 2: access to or didn't understand how to do. It's like 729 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 2: very intimidating. I was doing a panel on taking care 730 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 2: of yourself and talking about making tease, and someone was like, 731 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 2: what if you're so depressed you can't put on a 732 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 2: kettle of water? And I think about that all the time. 733 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 2: It's really hard, Like some of these modalities are incredibly 734 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 2: inaccessible when you're just struggling for the basic level of 735 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 2: energy or resources, any kind of resource, money, energy, space. 736 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 2: And I'm really grateful and We'll always be grateful for 737 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 2: that clinic because everything was free, you just had to 738 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 2: walk in. And I think I went back three or 739 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 2: four times, and I realized that I was always someone 740 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 2: who was really interested in alternative ways of trying to 741 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 2: access care and health and think about pushing myself beyond 742 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 2: the patterns that I inherited from my childhood and what 743 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 2: my parents, who at their very best gave me everything 744 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 2: that they had and some of the tools that they 745 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 2: didn't have. I had to find for myself and so 746 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 2: how to do that in a variety of ways. And 747 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 2: so after becoming such an avid student and participant in 748 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 2: a lot of different kinds of workshops, all centered around 749 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 2: somatics and bodywork, I'm trying to avoid saying the words 750 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 2: healing and wellness because they're so loaded. I think have 751 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 2: become extruded and compressed to mean totally different things. But 752 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 2: they are helpful umbrella terms. But just for the sake 753 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 2: of our combo, I'm trying to be a little bit 754 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 2: more expansive. And I realized that I felt like I 755 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 2: had the potential to do that work as well, and 756 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 2: perhaps the capacity, And so I started taking a lot 757 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 2: of training workshops and seminars around trauma informed breath work 758 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 2: for black people and people of color. I got trained 759 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 2: as a sound healer, I got initiated in reiki. There 760 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 2: are other things, and I'm forgetting them, which just goes 761 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 2: to show how much of a lifelong pursuit it's been. 762 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 2: I've studied herbalism and I continue to study it, and 763 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 2: have lineages on both sides of parents' families from the 764 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,439 Speaker 2: rural South using homeopathic or forged remedies because nobody could 765 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 2: afford to take their kids to a doctor, right, And 766 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 2: so those things are really instructive to me, both as inheritances, 767 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 2: but also just other ways of seeing the world and 768 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 2: ways of not accepting necessarily the story that you're being 769 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 2: given about what's best or what works, but really trying 770 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 2: to have agency to figure it out for yourself, which 771 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 2: again is exhausting, but there is something to be said 772 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 2: for that, skepticism of medical institutions and really respecting folk wisdom, 773 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 2: non traditional ways of knowledge, which are the original traditional 774 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 2: ways of knowledge but they've become marginalized. But like that 775 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 2: reclamation is really important to me. So it all rolls 776 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 2: up into the same practice and it's a pretty private practice. 777 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 2: Although I will offer sessions to anybody who reaches out, 778 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: it's not something that I do full time, and I 779 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 2: try to prioritize black, trans people of color, black people 780 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 2: in general. And I'm grateful because it doesn't have to 781 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 2: be lucrative. I can offer it on a sliding scale. 782 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 2: I can offer it for trade because I do have 783 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 2: salary privilege and so my job can subsidize that and 784 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 2: support that practice. It's really special, Like I really love 785 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,240 Speaker 2: when I get to give friends a treatment or someone 786 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 2: trusts me enough to lay themselves in my hands. The 787 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 2: responsibility is great, and I don't take it lightly. 788 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it feels like such a cool story. Like 789 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: even listening to you on the podcast, you can already 790 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: hear traces of it. So it's cool that there was 791 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: like this art exhibit experience that like then changed everything 792 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: for you and open this up to you be an 793 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: additional offering for you. Yeah, very cool. Well, this has 794 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: been such a treat, Jay. I mean, I feel like 795 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 1: I could continue talking with you forever, but I'm sure 796 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: that you have things to get back to doing, so 797 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: please let us know where we can stay connected with you. 798 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: What is your website? How can we stay in touch 799 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: around when work of Body will be released. Where can 800 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: we find you? 801 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for that, and thank you for your 802 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 2: time and the thoughtfulness and the really intentional questions. I 803 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 2: really appreciate it, and I hope that some of what 804 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 2: I shared is helpful. My website is usually pretty up 805 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,919 Speaker 2: to date Jene Deluxe dot com. I'm also at Jene 806 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 2: de Luxe on Instagram and Twitter, and then I do 807 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 2: have a sub stack. I try to do some criticism 808 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 2: there and I try to write about some of the 809 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,879 Speaker 2: wellness modalities that I'm working with through that week or 810 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 2: just whatever from time to time. And it's also Geennideluxe 811 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 2: dot subsec dot com, so pretty easy to find everywhere 812 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 2: you want. 813 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 1: To look beautiful. We'll be sure to include all of 814 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:11,760 Speaker 1: that in the show notes. Thank you again for spending 815 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 1: some time with us today. 816 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 2: Thank you, and thank you for the work that you 817 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,320 Speaker 2: do such an important resource. 818 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:22,439 Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so glad Ja was able to join 819 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 1: me for this conversation. To learn more about them and 820 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 1: their work, be sure to visit the show notes at 821 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three eighty eight, 822 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,319 Speaker 1: and don't forget to text this episode to two of 823 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,879 Speaker 1: your girls right now and tell them to check it out. 824 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,320 Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit 825 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 1: our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. 826 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,240 Speaker 1: And if you want to continue digging into this topic 827 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: or just be in community with other sisters, come on 828 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our 829 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women. 830 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls 831 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Alice Ellis, Zaria Taylor, 832 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank 833 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: y'all so much for joining me again this week. I 834 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 1: look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. 835 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: Take good care,