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Speaker 1: Is Pope Leo Francis two point oh.

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Speaker 2: There are emerging indicators this week at a huge sonotylal

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Speaker 2: gathering in an inter religious meeting, the Prayerful Posse.

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Speaker 1: We'll explore it all next.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to an important Prayerful Posse. Be sure to go

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Speaker 2: subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful way to support

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Speaker 2: our work totally free, or visit Raymond Royo dot com.

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Speaker 2: Let's convene the Prayerful Posse. Canon lawyer Priest of the

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Speaker 2: Archdiocese of New York, Father Gerald Murray, an editor in

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Speaker 2: chief of The Catholic Thing dot org. Robert Royal, who's

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Speaker 2: joining us today from Rome.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for staying up for us, Bob.

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Speaker 2: We've gotten this question again and again and again is

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Speaker 2: Pope Leo Francis two point zero? And I think the

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Speaker 2: answer to that, or at least pieces of the mosaic

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Speaker 2: of that answer, are beginning to emerge. Here's what Pope

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Speaker 2: Leo said back in September to release allen quote. I

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Speaker 2: hope to continue in the footsteps of Francis, including appointing

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Speaker 2: women to some leadership roles at different levels of the

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Speaker 2: church's life.

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Speaker 1: Our sexual quote is the new goal.

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Speaker 3: For the church.

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Speaker 4: Bob, Yeah, I find this kind of approach to things

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Speaker 4: disturbing because it's more of a political and secular vision

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Speaker 4: of what constitutes the proper personnel profile in the Vatican. Look,

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Speaker 4: what we know even in the secular world is we

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Speaker 4: want the best people in the jobs, and if they're

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Speaker 4: male or female, that's fine. There's also the question I'll

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Speaker 4: leave this through Father Murray, of course, because he's the canonist,

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Speaker 4: but there's also the question of there are certain roles

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Speaker 4: that can only or should only be played by people

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Speaker 4: who are ordained in the hierarchy. And if what we're

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Speaker 4: pointing to by that kind of political language is a

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Speaker 4: more democratic church, we're already in the church that doesn't

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Speaker 4: have a great deal of authority in the world, and

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Speaker 4: so I worry about it internally for the church, but

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Speaker 4: I worry about it also for what the image it

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Speaker 4: presents to the Church the world at large.

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Speaker 1: Father.

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Speaker 2: One of the hallmarks of Pope Francis, I think probably

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Speaker 2: his continuing legacy is really this idea of sinidality, and

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Speaker 2: Pope Leo spoke to what's being built as a jubilee

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Speaker 2: of synadyl teams and participatory bodies. These are essentially people

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Speaker 2: that sit around tables plotting the future of the church.

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Speaker 2: They're listening, they're building bridges. The Pope says, it's a

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Speaker 2: way of being church, a way of witnessing to the Gospel.

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Speaker 2: He also said something that leapt out at me to

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Speaker 2: this gathering in Paul the Sixth Hall at the Vatican.

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Speaker 2: He said, being a sonodyl church is recognizing that truth

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Speaker 2: is not possessed but sought together, allowing ourselves to be

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Speaker 2: guided by a restless heart in love with love end

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Speaker 2: quote your reaction, Father.

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Speaker 3: Well, restless hearts do search for the truth, but Jesus

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Speaker 3: revealed I end the way, the truth and the lives.

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Speaker 3: When you find Jesus and his teaching, then your heart

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Speaker 3: is at rest. Now ultimate rest only comes in heaven.

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Speaker 3: But the idea that we're all seekers for truth, you know,

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Speaker 3: this reminds me of, you know, something like from a

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Speaker 3: sixties movie in which people are wandering through deserts and saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, where's the truth, Where's the truth? And then

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Speaker 3: you come up on a guru and the guru says,

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Speaker 3: the search is the truth. You know, No, the truth

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Speaker 3: is the is the knowledge of reality heavenly and earthly

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Speaker 3: and we possess that. So you know, there's a skeptical

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Speaker 3: element in modern thinking, which BA says it's an act

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Speaker 3: of pride to say that you know something to be true,

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Speaker 3: and I reject that. Of course, so does the Church

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Speaker 3: because that's not how God made it and that's not

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Speaker 3: how we live.

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Speaker 1: Well, Bob, it is true.

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Speaker 2: The truth is not possessed by any one person, but

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Speaker 2: the Church has always claimed that it is the repository

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Speaker 2: of the truth, which is Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I have to say when I heard that remark,

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Speaker 4: I was upset initially too, But I said to myself,

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Speaker 4: if I was writing that speech, I would have taken

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Speaker 4: a slightly different approach, because we have heard Leo affirm,

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Speaker 4: for example, to the international community when he met with

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Speaker 4: representatives of the international community back in May, that truth

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Speaker 4: is very important, that there cannot be peace without truth

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Speaker 4: in the world. And so I think what he was

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Speaker 4: trying to do here is actually an Augustinian and a

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Speaker 4: broadly Catholic thing by saying, you know that we are converted,

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Speaker 4: and then we are on our path where we should

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Speaker 4: draw closer and closer to Christ every day in what

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Speaker 4: we're trying to do the double problem, it seems to me,

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Speaker 4: to me for him, is these sources of statements get

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Speaker 4: read in the after light of Francis, who I think

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Speaker 4: had had a different view, had a much more radical

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Speaker 4: view what Leo.

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Speaker 5: Seems to have.

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Speaker 4: And the language here, which is Augustinian. You know, it's

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Speaker 4: Saint Augustus, Augustine who says our hearts are restless until

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Speaker 4: they rest in you. And Augustine is not a relativist

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Speaker 4: at all. Yeah, if Pope Leo had asked me to

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Speaker 4: write that speech, and I don't expect that he will,

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Speaker 4: I think what I would have said to him is, look,

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Speaker 4: Holy Father, let us say, of course, the church possesses

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Speaker 4: the foundational truths that she has received from God through revelation,

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Speaker 4: the Trinity, Jesus, true God, and true Man, et cetera,

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Speaker 4: et cetera. But even though we have those truths, we

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Speaker 4: can come closer and closer to them by interacting with

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Speaker 4: one another and discussing it. That would have been the

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Speaker 4: way to avoid the impression that he gave. And a

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Speaker 4: lot of people like that impression that there is no

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Speaker 4: truth and we're all just seekers. As Father says that

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Speaker 4: the journey is.

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Speaker 5: More valuable than the goal.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, in love with love. It reminds me

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Speaker 2: of that old Jerry Hermann song love is only Love.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's like, what is it?

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Speaker 2: I mean, it starts to lose its context that you

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Speaker 2: repeat it and think about it. But Bob, he said

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Speaker 2: something else about formation. Pope Leo did listen to this.

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Speaker 2: We're going to play it for you, And.

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Speaker 6: I think we have to be very clear and sincere

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Speaker 6: about the importance of formation on every level. Sometimes ready

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Speaker 6: answers are given without the proper, necessary preparation to arrive

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Speaker 6: at the conclusion that maybe some of us have already drawn,

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Speaker 6: but others are not ready to are capable to understand,

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Speaker 6: and without the proper formation on every level in schools seminaries,

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Speaker 6: there are going to be resistances and the lack of understanding.

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Speaker 1: What does he mean by formation?

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Speaker 2: Bob, there and accepting some people not prepared to accept.

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Speaker 2: I imagine the changes proposed by sinideality and these small

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Speaker 2: table groups.

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Speaker 5: Well, that's one way I could go.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there is a more traditional way to read that,

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Speaker 4: and that is to say that you have to kind

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Speaker 4: of lead people to recognize the truth and to see

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Speaker 4: how it exists in their own life. But see, I

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Speaker 4: think that was another world word salad that confuses more

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Speaker 4: than it corrects. Yeah, of course you have to approach

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Speaker 4: people where they are. I hope that that's what he

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Speaker 4: was trying to get at in that, and that every

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Speaker 4: single area that we're trying to teach people about the

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Speaker 4: faith needs to be better at making sure it understands

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Speaker 4: who it's speaking to. But at the same time, we

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Speaker 4: can't be constantly worried about the fact that, you know,

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Speaker 4: we've got to carry out some esoteric operation.

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Speaker 5: We present the truth.

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Speaker 4: If people ask us what that means or they react

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Speaker 4: to it, we can then go on to explain more.

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Speaker 4: But if there has been I think if there has

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Speaker 4: been one constant problem in the Church since Vatican Two,

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Speaker 4: with possibly the exception of John Paul the Second, it's

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Speaker 4: been a reluctant to actually affirm what the truths are

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Speaker 4: that the Church believes in. And I can't imagine that

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Speaker 4: anybody thinks that we're back in some mythical time like

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Speaker 4: the nineteen fifties, where you just tell people this is

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Speaker 4: the truth, and that's that it's a different world than

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Speaker 4: the one that he seems to be speaking to.

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Speaker 1: Father, what was your take on that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he does say you need formation in schools

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Speaker 2: and ceremonaries because there's going to be resistances and a

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Speaker 2: lack of understanding.

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Speaker 1: How do you interpret that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, the keyword there is resistance, because it puts

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Speaker 3: it implies that there is an unreasonable refusal of a

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Speaker 3: green to what is being proposed. And the way you

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Speaker 3: overcome that is more education. Well, that sounds like communist

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Speaker 3: re education. To be honest, I would have preferred if

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Speaker 3: he said we have to engage with people who disagree

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Speaker 3: with some of the conclusions that sinned away is drawing.

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Speaker 3: That's the more Catholic way to do it. I know

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Speaker 3: what's going on here because we've seen it over the

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Speaker 3: course of this the two sentences on senidality. People who

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Speaker 3: are enthusiastic about the process control it and they put

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Speaker 3: out documents, and when there's not acclamation of it, they

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Speaker 3: get upset and instead of saying, well, other people have

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Speaker 3: not been convinced by our arguments, they basically say these

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Speaker 3: are obscurantists or ignorant people. They need more formation. That's

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Speaker 3: what worries me about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's sort of how I interpreted it. When

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Speaker 2: I first read it, I thought, oh, formation, everybody, We

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Speaker 2: all need more formation in the truths of the faith,

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Speaker 2: what the doctors of the Church taught, what Catholic doctrine

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Speaker 2: has always carried through time, the practices of the Church.

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Speaker 2: But I I agree with you, I'm not sure that's

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Speaker 2: what he's saying here. It sounds like you need to

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Speaker 2: be formed in the new pathway, the new Snadyl path.

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Speaker 2: And if you're not on that path, well then somehow

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Speaker 2: you're you're holding us back, you're not loving. Sister Natalie Beckwarth,

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Speaker 2: who I guess she's head of this Snadyal Secretariat, which

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Speaker 2: is an ongoing office in Rome. By the way, she

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Speaker 2: tweeted this out. I'm going to put it up on

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Speaker 2: the screen. Good news from our synod secretariat. The implementation

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Speaker 2: of cinidelity is taking place all over the world. Father,

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Speaker 2: what does that mean? A And this looks like a

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Speaker 2: group of kind of middle aged bureaucrats or retired academics

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Speaker 2: sitting around in the Vatican Office.

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Speaker 3: To me, well, I'll be a little bit tart and

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Speaker 3: pungent here. If this good news was already known, she

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have to tweet it out. Nobody knows that the

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Speaker 3: Cynidel process is being continued throughout the world except the

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Speaker 3: people running it. I have parishioners. No one has asked

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Speaker 3: me so far in the year and few months that

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Speaker 3: I've been here, how's the Sentinel process going. We don't care.

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Speaker 1: There is no.

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Speaker 3: Senadl process except what the people in Rome determine it

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Speaker 3: to be. So this is why the enthusiasm here is

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Speaker 3: the is the enthusiasm of a cadra of people in

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Speaker 3: control who are basically pushing this. And Pope Francis was

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Speaker 3: the one who started it. Pope Leo says he wants

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Speaker 3: to continue it, but we want to step back and

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Speaker 3: say when what hierarchy in the world sat down and

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Speaker 3: said at the conclusion of the Senate this thing should

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Speaker 3: continue because we're dissatisfied with the fact nothing has happened

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Speaker 3: and we need more things to happen. Most of the

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Speaker 3: hierarchy was basically silent about sinnidality because it has no

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Speaker 3: popular support in their diocese. That's how I see it.

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Speaker 3: I'll be accused of being, you know, an enemy of sinidlity,

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Speaker 3: a critic of something that nobody understands. Is that the

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Speaker 3: people in charge and they're using it to promote their agenda.

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Speaker 3: That's my criticism.

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Speaker 2: Well, Bob, my look, I'll be fully candid here. My

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Speaker 2: problem with cinidality is it's an innovation sinidality. You know,

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Speaker 2: I was in Rome recently and there were there was

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Speaker 2: a sinate of Armenian bishops.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's what a snadal way is.

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Speaker 2: A senate is a group of bishops coming together with

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Speaker 2: the Pope having a conversation about what's happening in their

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Speaker 2: dioceses so they can inform him and together discern.

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Speaker 1: The best path forward. But Pope Francis kind of created this.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like a rotary club approach to the church

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Speaker 2: where everybody's welcome, where we can invite people in and

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Speaker 2: we'll all kind of become little quasi bishops and mouthed

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Speaker 2: off on what we think the church and the direction

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Speaker 2: that should go in. But as father said, it's kind

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Speaker 2: of captured by a certain bureaucratic mindset and a type

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Speaker 2: of individuals. You don't see Latin masset here and so

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Speaker 2: young people going to this thing, or you know, nuns

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Speaker 2: Dominican nuns in their full habit who've taught kids all day,

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Speaker 2: going and sitting around the table it's a select group,

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Speaker 2: and that was That's what I don't like about it.

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Speaker 1: It's very elite. Your reaction book.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my reaction was somewhat similar to Fathers, although I

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Speaker 4: may not be as eloquent about it. I thought when

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Speaker 4: I saw this that they got in some reports from

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Speaker 4: somebody in far flung places and they said, well, hey,

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Speaker 4: it's all over the world that this is going on.

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Speaker 4: You know there, Look where is the synded energetic in

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Speaker 4: Germany where you know, it's heterodoxy that they're promoting, and

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Speaker 4: they're going at it hull hog. They're not being they're

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Speaker 4: not trying to avoid saying what they're doing.

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Speaker 5: They're doing it.

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Speaker 4: Other than that, there are places like in the United States,

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Speaker 4: where there is some sympathy in a bishop or a cardinal.

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Speaker 5: Here and there.

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Speaker 4: But do we really feel in the United States is

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Speaker 4: that that's where the growing end of Christianity is in

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Speaker 4: our time, in our country or in Latin America or

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Speaker 4: in Europe. It just seems to me that what they're

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Speaker 4: what they've tried to do with this, which is in

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Speaker 4: itself could be harmless talking about, you know, with one another.

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Speaker 4: What they really have in mind is you're right, to say,

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Speaker 4: Raymond some agenda that no one else can see, but

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Speaker 4: that they can proclaim is actually going forward. And to me,

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Speaker 4: since I don't really understand what citidelity is, and I

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Speaker 4: don't know that anybody does other than conversations, When you

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Speaker 4: don't know what's going on, how can you judge whether

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Speaker 4: it's being successful or not and where it's headed.

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Speaker 2: Well, even this week, the Pope was straining in his

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Speaker 2: first Q and A.

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Speaker 1: You will watch that as I did.

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Speaker 2: The Pope kind of strains to define what it is

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Speaker 2: by just quoting Bromides from Pope Francis. We're building bridges,

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Speaker 2: We're a listening church. Now we're walking together. Well, okay,

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Speaker 2: but what does that say to the people in Sudan

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Speaker 2: or Nigeria who are literally martyrs for faith? That to

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Speaker 2: me seems the future of the church, not whatever we're

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Speaker 2: doing around small groups in Rome.

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Speaker 1: But I need to move on because it was a wild.

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Speaker 2: Week in many ways to my eye, And Bob, I'm

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Speaker 2: kind of glad you're in Rome.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you'll be a calming influence.

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Speaker 2: There was a celebration of the sixtieth anniversary of nostre Atate,

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Speaker 2: which was a document on the church's relationship with non

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Speaker 2: Christian religions. Well, the celebration in Paul the sixth Hall began,

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Speaker 2: to my eye, looked like a Marty girl like parade

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Speaker 2: of rituals and quasi pagan celebrations which you can see.

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Speaker 2: It ended with a round of and I wish I

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Speaker 2: were making this up.

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Speaker 1: We are the world.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about the visuals here, which I always say,

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Speaker 2: and you all have heard this so many times. Practice,

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Speaker 2: to my eye is more important than doctrine, because the

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Speaker 2: public doesn't read doctrine, but they see this, Father, what

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Speaker 2: are they seeing here?

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Speaker 3: Well, what they're seeing here is that the Pope and

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Speaker 3: the Roman Church consider it's their job to convoke representatives

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Speaker 3: of all the religions of the world together, and the

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Speaker 3: fact that they agreed to come to Rome and be

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Speaker 3: with the Pope is a sign that, in fact, now

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Speaker 3: we have a new harmony, and that everyone is seeking

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Speaker 3: the same thing, and that we're all praying together and

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Speaker 3: all the rest and the answer that people scratch their

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Speaker 3: head then when they say, in no, wait a minute,

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Speaker 3: I thought our goal was to preach the Gospel so

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Speaker 3: that the people believe in other religions would join us

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Speaker 3: in believing in Christ. And that is, of course, that's

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Speaker 3: the truth. Go out to all the world, baptized all nations.

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Speaker 3: Teach them to observe everything I've commanded you. That's the mission. Now,

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Speaker 3: the goal of the Second Vatican Council was good. There

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Speaker 3: should be mutual understanding to avoid hatreds and warfare and

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Speaker 3: unfair treatment and all the rest. But this Second Batting

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Speaker 3: Council never said we are not interested in the conversion

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Speaker 3: of people from other religions. Now there are some people

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Speaker 3: now in the Gathered Church who make that statement, which

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Speaker 3: is completely horrendous to say. Well, events like this, as

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Speaker 3: you say, they give an impression that the Catholic Church,

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Speaker 3: instead of wanting to convert people, simply wants to convoke

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Speaker 3: them to a meeting. And we can all say we're

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Speaker 3: doing the same thing. People who are polytheists do not

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Speaker 3: believe in one God. They are in the they're in

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Speaker 3: the darkness of the error that there are multiple gods.

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Speaker 3: We should never give the impression that we confirm them

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Speaker 3: in that belief. The Pope isn't doing that, but the

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Speaker 3: impression is given, and that has to be dealt with.

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Speaker 2: Now, Bob, Bob it father I think is right here

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Speaker 2: there is the impression that Roman some way is blessing

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Speaker 2: you know, the Hindu people with their multiple gods, and

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Speaker 2: you know some of these some of these far flung

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Speaker 2: religions that were welcomed this week in the name of peace.

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to get to a quote about peace

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Speaker 2: in a moment, but your general reaction to the visual

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Speaker 2: impression this gives, because remember we're in a sound by

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Speaker 2: TikTok culture. They're seeing little images of that and the

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Speaker 2: pope embracing it or lighting a candle with the people

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Speaker 2: who are you know, putting the evil eye on their

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Speaker 2: face or doing wild you know, gyrations on the floor

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Speaker 2: of Paul the Sigx Hall.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean some of those exotic dancers and whatnot.

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Speaker 4: I mean that really threw me for a loop when

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Speaker 4: I saw it. Look, even back in the nineteen sixties

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Speaker 4: during Vatican two when this document was being debated, there

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Speaker 4: are two things that some of the critics warned about,

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Speaker 4: and they have technical terms. One is indifferentism, as if

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Speaker 4: it doesn't matter which religion you follow, and the other

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Speaker 4: is universalism, as if you know, you know, everybody is

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Speaker 4: basically okay. And you know, when I first saw this,

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Speaker 4: it reminded me of Pope Francis going to Abu Dhabi

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Speaker 4: signing that Abu Dhabi Declaration and saying, well, God has

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Speaker 4: willed a multiplicity of religions, and even his own theologians said, well,

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Speaker 4: wait a minute, no, God, we believe as Catholics that

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Speaker 4: God will there to be one true faith. He wants

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Speaker 4: everyone to belong to the Catholic faith. And so the

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Speaker 4: Pope was forced to back off and say, well, it's

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Speaker 4: his passive will.

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Speaker 5: He allows other religions.

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Speaker 4: But what's happening here is what I mean. There isn't

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Speaker 4: even unity in the Catholic Church, and in the sense

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Speaker 4: of total peace. The Orthodox are all fighting with one another.

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Speaker 4: The Anglicans are undergoing a split because of doctrinal and

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Speaker 4: moral questions. I mean, let alone, and that's within Christianity.

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Speaker 5: Let alone?

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Speaker 4: What is outside with these other faces. It's a sentimental approach.

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Speaker 4: It's nice to try to be to be friendly with people,

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Speaker 4: but I love it. I just came upon, as I

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Speaker 4: was falling over here last night a line from Cardinal Newman,

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Speaker 4: who will be declared a Doctor of the Church tomorrow

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Speaker 4: on Saturday.

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Speaker 5: He said, holiness before peace. That holiness is what.

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Speaker 4: We need to pursue before we even think about our

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Speaker 4: own personal peace or peace in the world.

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Speaker 5: He doesn't mean to exclude the question of peace.

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Speaker 4: What he's just saying is that the real focus for

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Speaker 4: all of us is to follow Christ. And if we

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Speaker 4: do that, then insofar as this can happen in a

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Speaker 4: fallen world, we'll get around to peace in the world,

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Speaker 4: peace in our own hearts. But without that, without that

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Speaker 4: primary focus, you know, this could be the super Bowl.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there's a half time to show at the

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Speaker 5: super Bowl.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to buy the World of Coke in the

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Speaker 2: VIP room at Paul the sixth Hall with the belly Dancers.

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Speaker 2: But at the International Meeting of Peace at the Coliseum,

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Speaker 2: the Pope said, war is never holy, Father, only peace

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Speaker 2: is holy.

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Speaker 3: Is it well, War in and of itself can be

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Speaker 3: can be an instrument of justice as it just war.

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Speaker 3: And if someone invades my country and wants to kidnapple

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Speaker 3: all my citizens and is going to kill every member

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Speaker 3: of the army, we fight back because we don't want

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Speaker 3: that to happen. And that's a holy duty. I mean

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Speaker 3: to love of neighbor, sad to say, in a fallen

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Speaker 3: world includes taking up the sword in order to defend

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Speaker 3: the innocent. So it's true war should be avoided at

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Speaker 3: all costs, but there is to simply say, peace is

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Speaker 3: the only expression of justice. Peace is a fruit of

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Speaker 3: a just order, and when a just order is offended,

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Speaker 3: you have to re establish justice. You know, think about

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Speaker 3: the people of South Korea. Was it unholy of them

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Speaker 3: to fight back against the North and then the communist Chinese? No,

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Speaker 3: they were defending their land, they were defending their people,

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Speaker 3: So that's a just struggle.

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Speaker 2: Well, Bob, this brings up the question of historically the

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Speaker 2: Battle of Laponto, you know, the Crusades launched to preserve

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Speaker 2: the Holy Land or Spain.

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Speaker 1: I mean, were those not good endeavors.

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Speaker 4: I've mentioned before that we believe in just war theory.

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Speaker 4: We don't believe in just peace. Piece as a goal

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Speaker 4: can be a very deceptive thing. And when I when

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Speaker 4: I saw the remark that there are no just wars,

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Speaker 4: just uh.

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Speaker 5: Just peace. There are no holy.

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Speaker 2: Wars, just only pieces whole piece.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, look, he maybe he's worried about about is law,

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Speaker 4: because Islam.

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Speaker 5: Does believe in holy wars.

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Speaker 4: We kind of talked about holy wars during the Crusades

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Speaker 4: because what we were responding to an aggression by a

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Speaker 4: different religion. And in the modern world, we're seeing you

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Speaker 4: mentioned earlier Raymond, Sudan and Nigeria, we're seeing militant attacks

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Speaker 4: upon our Christian people. Also in places like China, a

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Speaker 4: little bit more subtle, but.

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Speaker 5: Still you know it's there.

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Speaker 4: And you know, a peaceful resistance is a good thing.

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Speaker 4: But at a certain point, like having a police force,

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Speaker 4: like having an army, it it just makes sense. It's

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Speaker 4: just prudent and intelligent and human and Christian to say

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Speaker 4: you have to defend innocence from people who mean who

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Speaker 4: mean them harm. So you know, there are I don't

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Speaker 4: want to say necessarily holy wars, but they kind of

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Speaker 4: shade from being just into holy when it's a defense

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Speaker 4: of holy things. I'm happy that, for example, a lot

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Speaker 4: of churches around the world are now recognizing they need

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Speaker 4: to police their boundaries because a lot of people tend

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Speaker 4: to want to do ill to them. And you know,

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Speaker 4: as you know, I wrote that the recent book on

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Speaker 4: the Martyrs, and and some other places, and in the

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Speaker 4: Muslim world in particular, and by the way, I think

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Speaker 4: that this is a sticking point in the Vatican, that

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Speaker 4: it's hard for us who believe in the West, in pluralism,

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Speaker 4: in religion and society. We all want to get along,

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Speaker 4: but it's hard for us to recognize that Islam does

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Speaker 4: believe in conquest. It believes in evangelizing through conquest. You know,

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Speaker 4: the people have had their gun, the gun put to

439
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 4: their head and say, you know, become a Muslim or die.

440
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 4: I very often they die. So there's an there's an

441
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 4: asymmetry here that we want to be aware of. We

442
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 4: don't want to encourage holy wars, but we have to

443
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 4: recognize that when we're under attack, there is a certain

444
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 4: moral I would even say duty, maybe even a certain

445
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 4: spirituality to being willing to put yourself in harm way

446
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 4: harms way to protect innos in people.

447
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 2: Well, and look, there's there's a there's a I was

448
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,719
Speaker 2: with a group of young guys and recently married people

449
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,479
Speaker 2: last week in Texas and there was a sense that

450
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: they're looking for a robust kind of manly spirituality if

451
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: you will. Now that doesn't mean you have to, you know,

452
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 2: come with your guns to mass and swords, but it

453
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 2: means recognizing reality and the spiritual response to it. And

454
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 2: I think that's what you're talking to Bob and Father.

455
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 2: There is this accommodation within the Vatican today and unwillingness

456
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: to acknowledge reality, which is Islam as ascendant and willing

457
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 2: to kill your people to gain land, territory and adherence,

458
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: and in a place like China that uses the government

459
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: force and the government boot to smash and.

460
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: Destroy the faithful.

461
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: Those two realities I think the Vatican, for whatever reason,

462
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 2: they just want to turn a blind eye to and

463
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: have these interreligious gatherings and light candles and have you know,

464
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 2: dances up the aisles and think this is somehow an

465
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 2: answer is it?

466
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 3: You know, symbolic performance type events as we saw in

467
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 3: the Pall the six audience hall, are largely meaningless except

468
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 3: as public relations statements of attitude that the attitude of

469
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church is we get along with everybody else. Well,

470
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 3: that's a very good attitude to maintain, but when you

471
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 3: have other people attacking and killing your people, you have

472
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 3: to say, we didn't create the enemy. The enemy created

473
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 3: itself by its beliefs, and then they're using violence to

474
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 3: try and suppress us, and we're not going to let

475
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 3: that happen. So I'm very proud loud to say that

476
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: in the Catholic Church, just war teaching does not legitimate hatred. No,

477
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 3: it's an expression of love and the enforcement of justice

478
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 3: through force in order to guarantee the rights of innocent people.

479
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 3: The North Korean back to that analogy, because it's very vivid.

480
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 3: The North Koreans wanted to exterminate every South Korean who

481
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 3: didn't submit to them. Was it unjust for the Americans

482
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 3: to go there and say, no, we're going to defend

483
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 3: South Korea and the right of those people, and that

484
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 3: the government there still wants to.

485
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 5: Invade the South.

486
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 3: So it's very just that the Americans have marines and

487
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 3: soldiers in Korea to protect the peace. They are not haters,

488
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 3: they have an expression of love.

489
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: And look, the last pope that recognized reality, and I

490
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 2: would argue, confronted it head on theologically historically was Benedict

491
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: the sixteenth in Regensburg when he said, this is what

492
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 2: we're dealing with, here's the reality of Islam. In fact,

493
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote using the sword to make converts.

494
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: And this is a problem for us in the modern

495
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 2: world and in the Church. We have not had a

496
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: pope really since then willing to confront in that way,

497
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: and that opened up a series of very serious Muslim

498
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: and Catholic dialogues that should have continued, and there was

499
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: this accommodation and kind of well, we'll just all get

500
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 2: along and pretend it's not happening idea that followed benedet

501
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 2: But I guess emblematic of that is this Muslim prayer

502
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: room at the Vatican Library that's continuing to cause a

503
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: stir for those who don't know. I guess some Muslim

504
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: scholars were asking to pray as they were doing research,

505
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: and the Vatican said, sure, here's a prayer room. They

506
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 2: put a carpet in there for them so they could pray.

507
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: Swiss Bishop Marion Elegante told Life Site this week, quote,

508
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 2: as soon as a Muslim praise there somehow in the

509
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: minds of the faithful. I'm not entirely sure about this,

510
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: but it wouldn't have surprised me if then it becomes

511
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 2: kind of a rooting foothold, an outpost of the coming

512
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: dominance that Islam naturally always strives for. Islam wants absolute dominance.

513
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 2: It has caused Christianity to disappear everywhere. Bishop Elegante said. Conversely,

514
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 2: one would never allow us to set up a chapel

515
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: in Mecca, the holy site of Islam itself, where we

516
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: could celebrate Holy Mass. Sounds like something we said on

517
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 2: the posse here several weeks ago. Chance then Cardinal Gerhart Mueller,

518
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: the former head of the Doctrinal Office of the Vatican,

519
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: told me this week he wonders if any cardinals in

520
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: the Couria or the Pope himself was consulted about this decision.

521
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: Then he added this.

522
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: How do you think that's perceived by those in Islam

523
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: and by Muslim believers.

524
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 7: No, they will triumph and there we have a foot

525
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 7: step in that the Catholic Church, and they will interpret

526
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,959
Speaker 7: it as a sign that we are accept there superiority.

527
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 3: Father, your reaction, No, I agree with both of those cardinals,

528
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 3: and this was a misplaced attempt to show sympathy and

529
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 3: accommodation to Muslim scholars. But it was a terrible mistake.

530
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 3: And you know, just on the as I said earlier programs,

531
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: that's a library, that's not a chapel. If you want

532
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 3: to go pray, go to a Muslim chapel or you know,

533
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 3: a mosque or prey outdoors. As I see Muslim people

534
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 3: do that in New York all the time. But to

535
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 3: give them a place within the Vatican gives them the

536
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 3: impression that you're surrendering to them part of the Vatican

537
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 3: which now becomes a Muslim prayer room. And you know,

538
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 3: I believe in freedom. Muslim prayer rooms are great. We

539
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 3: don't supply them. They supply their own prayer rooms. And then,

540
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: as regards the other point that Cardinal Muller is making, yes,

541
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 3: this is an aggressive religion in the sense that Mohammad

542
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: sent out armies to so aggressiveness is inherent in its DNA.

543
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 3: We have to keep that in mind when people ask

544
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 3: us to do things for them, and we should say no,

545
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 3: wait a minute, we're promoting a different religion here. We

546
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: want to live at peace with you, but we're not

547
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 3: going to give you our space to become your space.

548
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 2: Bob, We're going back again to this, you know, the

549
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: posture of a church spiritually A and B reciprocity, which

550
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: there never is with Islam, certainly not on this point.

551
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've traveled quite a bit in the Middle East,

552
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 4: and you know, there are several countries. I remember being

553
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 4: in the American the Vatican embassy in Tehran, for example,

554
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 4: they do have a Mass inside the embassy there By

555
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 4: the time, I was talking with the young priest and

556
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 4: he said, I would love to be able to take

557
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 4: a Mass just outside here and be able to say

558
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 4: Mass in Iran freely, the way people can in most

559
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 4: countries in the world. You know, the bishop says he's

560
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 4: uncertain whether his judgment about this being a conquest is true.

561
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 4: I'm not uncertain at all. I mean, I'm I'm quite

562
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 4: certain that our people meant well. They did what they

563
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 4: did on the basis of Christian values of respecting other

564
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 4: persons as having human dignity. But within it Islam, it

565
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 4: means something quite different. I mean, you see these cases

566
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 4: and we're not talking in sacred spaces, but you see

567
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 4: these cases in England where huge numbers of Muslims about

568
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 4: down in the middle of the street and take over

569
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 4: a street temporarily to pray at one of the set

570
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 4: times to pray.

571
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 5: What is that about.

572
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 4: It's not about praying, because you can go pray in

573
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 4: your mosque or you know, in some space that you

574
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 4: all gather in. It's about taking over the society and

575
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 4: it's not every Muslim.

576
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 7: You know.

577
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 4: The question always comes up when this debate starts, well,

578
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 4: we believe in freedom, his father says, and you know,

579
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 4: most Muslims are peaceful, and yeah, they are individually, and

580
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 4: they may be you know, good citizens in a certain sense.

581
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 4: But the overall historical arc here is something that we're forgetting,

582
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 4: and the internal dynamic of Islam, which spread by the sword.

583
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 5: Let's be clear about this.

584
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 4: It's spread by the sword in the Middle East, in

585
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 4: North Africa, it went halfway up into Spain and almost

586
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 4: into France, almost conquered all of Europe. Right, how did

587
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 4: Christianity spread by evangelization? It was not spread by the sword.

588
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 4: So there are two very different religions here, one that

589
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 4: uses violence to expand and another in which the founder

590
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 4: is willing to give himself up to death to redeem

591
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 4: his people. These are opposite views of the world. It

592
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 4: isn't just all the religions of the world are basically

593
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 4: after the same thing.

594
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 5: They're not.

595
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: But Father, this begs the question, and we should do

596
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: a whole episode on this topic. But you know, we

597
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: opened with the Pope saying, look, I'm going to expand

598
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: access to the church and leadership roles, or maybe we're

599
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: doing it later on the Pope saying he's going to

600
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: open up leadership roles to women in the church. We

601
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: see this kind of sonodyl talk. This is a marked

602
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: departure from the church militant, a church that deeply believed

603
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: that their family and community rested upon this bedrock of faith.

604
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: And if that faith was disturbed, everything else was disturbed,

605
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 2: including a natural order. When you see Islam, you know,

606
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 2: I remember being in Egypt and my driver said, Sir,

607
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: can I pull over here. I said, sure, pull over.

608
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: Well he pulled over because the minaret was sounding. He

609
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: pulled his carpet out the back threw it on the floor.

610
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: Suddenly thousands of men came into the street and they

611
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: all were facing east during their prayers in the evening.

612
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: And I thought, here's a male led, robust, deeply believing

613
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: faith making a public witness that Catholicism and everybody else

614
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: apologizes for or puts in, you know, wants to confine

615
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 2: to the walls of the church.

616
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: That's not Islam's way.

617
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: And there has to be a spiritual response to that

618
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: in some way.

619
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 3: No, there has to be. And what you just spoke

620
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 3: of is an illustration that in Islam there's no difference

621
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 3: between sacred and profane. We have that very clear distinction

622
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 3: because government is You know that Jesus said give disease.

623
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 3: What flongs sees to give to God belongs to God.

624
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 3: And therefore you know you have space dedicated to God,

625
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 3: space dedicated to seas. And for Islam, it's all encompassing God.

626
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 3: God rules everybody, including every Christian. They just don't recognize

627
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 3: it through Islam. And that's the kind of point. And

628
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 3: Bob's wrote about this in the in the book he

629
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: just put out, I mean, what a sad story. Remember

630
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 3: those Coptic Christians in Libya who were brought on the

631
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 3: beach and orange suits. They were given a choice apostetize

632
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: in Christianity, believe in Islam or die. Now what religion

633
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 3: does that. It's a religion in which the people who

634
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 3: are you know, enthusiastic about it think God is pleased

635
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 3: when we conquer people and Christianity the other way around.

636
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,240
Speaker 3: We say God has sent a mission into the world

637
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 3: to convince people to follow us and his through his grace,

638
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 3: that happens. So yeah, I we need we need a

639
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 3: spirit of course, of cooperation and love toward those we

640
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: don't agree with. But we have to also affirm by

641
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 3: me stating that Jesus Christ is the unique savior of

642
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 3: all mankind. I'm not offending anybody because I'm telling them

643
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 3: a truth. If they don't recognize it, then perhaps they

644
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: will think about it when they hear me say it.

645
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 3: But I'm not going to say Jesus only cave to

646
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 3: say the Christians, and then Islam is a different dispensation

647
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 3: than that's God wills that we don't believe that.

648
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the return to the traditional

649
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 2: Latin Mass, which we saw at Saint Peter's Basilica recently

650
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: in Rome. Cardinal Raymond Burke celebrated the Mass with the

651
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 2: Pope's approval. Thousands packed into the basilica. But that same weekend,

652
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: the Pope celebrated Mass for these Sonodyl groups that we've

653
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: been talking about, and he said, the following Christians must

654
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: live with confidence and a new spirit, and the tensions

655
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 2: that run through the life of the Church between unity

656
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: and diversity, tradition and novelty, authority and participation. We must

657
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: allow the Spirit to transform them so that they do

658
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 2: not become ideological contrapositions and harmful polarizations. Bob, does this

659
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: give us any insight into how the Pope sees not

660
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 2: only the church in this moment, but this bend toward tradition.

661
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a very good question.

662
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 4: I wish I could go over to the Angelica and

663
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 4: read his doctoral dissertation, because he wrote specifically on the

664
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 4: role of the person in authority within the Augustinian order,

665
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,439
Speaker 4: so he probably has ideas going back quite a way.

666
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 4: I mean, look, it's good to talk about this, about

667
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 4: not letting these different positions become polarized and ideological.

668
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 5: But who does this? Father and I were.

669
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 4: Talking in the green room, so to speak about Cardinal Mueller.

670
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 4: Cardinal Muller in that beautiful interview you did with him, Raymond,

671
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 4: where he talks about how these people are exclusivists in

672
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 4: their theologies. I mean, you can be an advocate of

673
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 4: the traditional Latin Mass and say, well that's for me,

674
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 4: some other people would like the Novsorto mass. I mean,

675
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 4: I go to the Novsortal Mass usually and it's a

676
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 4: in my parish. It's a beautiful mass, and I get

677
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 4: a lot out of it. But there are many different

678
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 4: rights in the church, right, I mean, we keep talking

679
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 4: about this therefore main rights, but than other subsidiary rights.

680
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 4: And no one says that because there's a Ukrainian Catholic

681
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 4: Church that therefore they're creating sism where they're backward in

682
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 4: their theology. The only people who claim this, and the

683
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 4: only people they claim it about, are the people who

684
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 4: are sort of partisans of the Novsoro mass and opponents

685
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 4: of the traditional Latin mass. Ex Ift the mass that

686
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 4: was set for nineteen hundred and sixty somehow years somehow

687
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 4: is a deep and dangerous aberration. Well, who's the ideal

688
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 4: in that circumstance. It's not the people who are kind

689
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 4: of part of a tradition that maybe isn't to everyone's taste.

690
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 4: It's the people who want to banish Catholics and and

691
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 4: shut down the way that they feel that they best worship.

692
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

693
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 2: Father, this seems to be an ongoing narrative, and it's

694
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 2: the reason I'm very watchful of it. And it's the

695
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: narrative that Pope Francis I think advanced first that there's

696
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 2: an ideology at play of partisanship. What did he call

697
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: what did the poblio call it? There the hardened polarizations

698
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 2: in the church. The question is this, I had dinner

699
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 2: with a man the other night, who, by the way,

700
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 2: was a Latin adherent. He went to the Latin mask

701
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 2: on occasion, and he said, but you know, in those

702
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: Latin communities, some of them have some, you know, bad

703
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 2: ideas about the pope and authority in the church. I said, stop,

704
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: are you now, Padre Pio searching the hearts of everybody

705
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 2: going to the Latin mass?

706
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: Do you do that for the people going to the

707
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: Nova sorto maps. I've got wacky ideas too.

708
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: I mean, so it's a narrative that I think is

709
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: very destructive when you see young people, some of the

710
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 2: young people I saw in Texas this past week, who

711
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: are yearning.

712
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: For this tradition.

713
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 2: They want the ancient and the eternal and the true,

714
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 2: And as they move toward it, they're being told, you know,

715
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: you're part of polarization and hardened ideology.

716
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

717
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 3: I mean, why is it in the face of success

718
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,439
Speaker 3: getting people into church, the first reaction is take away

719
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 3: the key and shut the door, because these people are

720
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 3: promoting something that causes division in the church. No, the

721
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 3: people shutting the door of the parish are causing division

722
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 3: because they're driving people out of their church. Now, what

723
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 3: is behind this Bob and I were talking in the

724
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 3: green room, as he mentioned, and it's hard to figure out.

725
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 3: I think it goes largely back to a nineteen sixties

726
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 3: attitude that after Vatican Two, everything that came before is

727
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 3: not subject to revision and suspicion. Everything that came later

728
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 3: is a project for the good, and therefore the new

729
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 3: Mass is in vilable, meaning you can't you can't go

730
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 3: back to the old Mass. Well, guess what. A whole

731
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 3: series of people in practice reject that notion because it

732
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 3: basically marginalizes Christian history. As Bob said, nineteen you know

733
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 3: about nineteen sixty, was every form of worship before vatic

734
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 3: until somehow defective and needing to be reformed? The answer is,

735
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 3: of course not, Yeah. Now they're over the course of history.

736
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 3: Additions are made, things are changed. There's a whole study

737
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 3: this myself. The whole series of prayers were changed at

738
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 3: the time of the Council of Trent. But when people

739
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 3: say I find the beauty of the old missile to

740
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: nourish my spiritual life, the first thing we shouldn't turn

741
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 3: around and say that you are a polarizing ideologue and

742
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: you need to change your mind. You need a new attitude.

743
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 3: You need a formation. This is the message that it's

744
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 3: being conveyed when Senidality has a closed door to the

745
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 3: Latin Mass community. I would love if they said we're

746
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 3: going to have a sindinel session and listen to people

747
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: like the Latin Mass. I believe I could fill that

748
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 3: room with people I personally know and you guys too,

749
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 3: And you know that would be a beautiful thing because

750
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: they would find a bunch of people actually believe in

751
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 3: all of Catholic doctrine. Why is it that Citidealite is

752
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 3: dominated in Germany France by people who don't believe in

753
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 3: Catholic doctrine and constantly criticizing it because it self selected.

754
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 3: These people pick the ones they want to have at

755
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 3: the table. So we have to get back to if

756
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 3: we're gonna have discussion groups in the church, let's say

757
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 3: everybody's welcome and really mean it.

758
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

759
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about the Sonotal way in Italy

760
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 2: in a moment, but.

761
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 1: I got to get to this very quickly. I want

762
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: both of your reactions.

763
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: First to Father Chicago Archbishop Blaize Supic said recently about

764
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: the traditional Latin Mass quote, it is more of a

765
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: spectacle rather than the active participation of all the baptized.

766
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: Your reaction, father.

767
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 3: I don't agree with them. Spectacle a sacred action is

768
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 3: not as spectacle. A spectacle is what happens on Broadway

769
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 3: or you know, somewhere out in the hustings where you have.

770
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 3: You know, Oklahoma is being produced at my high school.

771
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 3: That's a spectacle. And I love spectacles. The Holy Mass

772
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 3: is not a spectacle now. And by the way, the

773
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 3: meaning of participation is a great debate. If I'm silently

774
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 3: listening to the priest pray something, even in a low voice,

775
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 3: am I not participating? I certainly am, because my intention

776
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 3: is what counts. And if the church has mystery, I

777
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 3: mean the Eastern Rites all have iconography. You can't even

778
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,720
Speaker 3: see when the priest is doing the consecration. They close

779
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 3: the doors, right, This is a false nose of participation.

780
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 3: It's sort of like the banjo theory.

781
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 5: Here.

782
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 3: Until all the banjo players are on the stage, the

783
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 3: show can't start. No, if some people played banjo, others listen.

784
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: This is the way it is, Bob, You know, I

785
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: mean a spectacle.

786
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 2: If you want to talk about spectacle, look at that

787
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: clip we played early from Paul to sixth all, that's

788
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 2: what a spectacle looks like, and they'd never call that

789
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: a spectacle. But Bob, the idea that somehow the people

790
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 2: attending the Latin masks aren't really participating, give me a break.

791
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: They wouldn't be packed.

792
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: The way they are, and the young wouldn't be coming

793
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,720
Speaker 2: if there wasn't something drawing them in, something they felt

794
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 2: they were gathering from it and taking from it the

795
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 2: reality of the Eucharist in Christ himself.

796
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm with Father. I mean, they are very different

797
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 4: ways of participating. You know, some of them are a

798
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 4: little louder, you know, Good to Africa might be pretty

799
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 4: exuberant kind of celebration of the Mass. Some of them

800
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 4: can be more formal. And in fact, if we look

801
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 4: back at the documents of Vatican too, what they seem

802
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 4: to be pointing about by talking about greater participation was

803
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 4: educating the laity to take part in the music and

804
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 4: the recitation of the prayers in Latin and whatnot, and

805
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 4: not necessarily an entirely vernacular approach to things. But I

806
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 4: looked at the pictures of those young people, and you know,

807
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 4: you go online and you look at the the lines

808
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 4: all the way down via de la Councilia, which is

809
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 4: that big wide avenue that goes right down to Saint Peter's.

810
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 4: It was filled, The square was filled the way that

811
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 4: people were reverent inside the Basilica itself. Boy, that's a

812
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 4: different kind of participation.

813
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 5: And we don't want to lose that from.

814
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,439
Speaker 4: The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

815
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 2: Well, that's vibrant with tradition, vibrant with the eternal truths.

816
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you want that lived reality? And compare that?

817
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 2: And I don't mean to compare in contrast, but maybe

818
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 2: I do compare that to the kind of sterile, academic,

819
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 2: deadly round table groups that look like you know, the

820
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 2: retirement homes Bingo. I mean, there's no comparison, there's just

821
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 2: no comparison. There was a third Sonatyl gathering that I

822
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 2: mentioned a moment ago in Italy, and it produced a

823
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 2: document Father called Levin of Peace and Hope, and it

824
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: calls for women to have corresponsibility and decision making and

825
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 2: encourages local church is to promote the recognition of and

826
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 2: quote the pastoral accompaniment of homosexual and transgendered persons end quote.

827
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 2: What is meant by first of all the corresponsibility of

828
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 2: decision making Father.

829
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 3: Now here we go again. This is an attack on

830
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 3: Catholic doctrine. Catholic doctrine teaches that the shepherds of the

831
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 3: church are the governors. They're the people who exercise governance.

832
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 3: They can associate with themselves advisors, but they can't surrender

833
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 3: the power of governance. And this is the demand that

834
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 3: women have to have power of governance because otherwise they're

835
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 3: being treated unfairly. If that's the case, then Jesus was unfair. That,

836
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 3: of course is false. Jesus is God. Everything he did

837
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 3: is good. The acceptance of transgender people. So now the

838
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 3: Italian bishops and the church in Italy believes that there's

839
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 3: such a thing as a transgender person. That God made

840
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 3: a man in the body of a woman and vice versa.

841
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 3: This is mythology. I mean, isn't that mythology the cause

842
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 3: of tremendous suffering? Because some parents bring their children in

843
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 3: from mutilation, they tell children to dress and act like

844
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 3: their opposite sex. I mean, this is manipulative. It's all

845
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 3: about the sexual revolution. It's disordered thinking, it's societal chaos,

846
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 3: and the Italian hierarchy is saying we want part of that,

847
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 3: we want to get into that action. This is horrific.

848
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 3: The Pope needs to start. We have to have a

849
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 3: decree from Rome saying there is no such thing as

850
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 3: a transgender person, as a bisexual person. You are a heterosexual.

851
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 3: There are men, they're women.

852
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: That's it, Bob.

853
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 2: This idea of women filling in and taking decision making

854
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 2: positions at the Italian bishops are pushing it sounds like

855
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,959
Speaker 2: they're pushing female ordination JP two. In nineteen ninety four,

856
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 2: I thought in ordinaccio sacr deltas close the door to

857
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 2: this I bought in nineteen ninety four.

858
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and many before and after him too. But both

859
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 4: of these things, I've said this before, But both of

860
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 4: these things proceed along a certain path. It seems to

861
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 4: me because if you talk to people who know about

862
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 4: public relations, they will tell you that what is said

863
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 4: and what gets communicated are often quite different things. So

864
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 4: you know, in Fiducia Suplicones, Pope Francis and Cardinal Fernandez

865
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 4: tried to make it appear that all they're trying to

866
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 4: do is bless people who are engaged in homosexual acts

867
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 4: and hoping to make them more faithful to the church.

868
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 4: But what the world heard it was an affirmation of

869
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,919
Speaker 4: people who are same sex attracted and are sexually active.

870
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 5: The same thing.

871
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 4: I think it's true of this, you know, putting women

872
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 4: into positions simply because they're women. I said earlier, we

873
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 4: really want the best people for any particular job, wherever

874
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 4: that happens to be. And the message that goes out

875
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 4: when I think that this is a ditsy document to

876
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 4: come out out of the Italian bishops, I'm deeply, deeply

877
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 4: disturbed that they would go along with this political movement

878
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 4: that's now taken over, where you're going to say that

879
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 4: you're going to appoint women on the basis of the

880
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 4: fact that they are women. You know, what this communicates,

881
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 4: yet again, is that what the Church was in the

882
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 4: past was somehow wrong in restricting ordination to men. That

883
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 4: you know, we are the ones who know better than

884
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 4: the entire past history of the Roman Catholic Church. It

885
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 4: looks like it's humble and it's open, and in fact

886
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,800
Speaker 4: it's arrogant and it's ideological.

887
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: Father to Jesuit superiors. Pope Leo said something that I

888
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: found revealing that may cast light on our entire discussion.

889
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 1: He said the following.

890
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 2: When the Spirit leads the Apostolic body, the Apostolic body

891
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: elsewhere for a greater good, This may require letting go

892
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 2: of long cherished structures or roles and exercise of ignation

893
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 2: holy indifference.

894
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: What does that mean to your Father? What is happening there?

895
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 3: Well, they're talking about changing practices and institutions from the past,

896
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 3: saying that the Holy Spirit is leading the church to

897
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 3: do that, meaning therefore, this is a decision God is

898
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 3: revealing to the church. How do we know that it's

899
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 3: a holy spirit not another the spirit of the age

900
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 3: for instance. And then ignation and difference, that's part of it.

901
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 3: You know, in the Jesuit order, if the Superior orders

902
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 3: you to leave one apostle or go to the other,

903
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 3: you're given like ten minutes to be upset, and then

904
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 3: you have to accept it, you know, in a spirit

905
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 3: of indifference, which is a good thing. But we have

906
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 3: to if there's a threat to something in the life

907
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 3: of the Church that the Church has always done and taught,

908
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 3: we don't need indifference. We need defense of the faith.

909
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 3: So you know, it's in the context of what we're

910
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 3: speaking of, and that's where this is all being said.

911
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 3: We have a movement for the ordination of women to

912
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 3: the priesthood, and they want to start with the dak in,

913
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 3: but then they want the priesthood. Now, are we to

914
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 3: simply say, in general terms, structures and practice from the

915
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 3: past may have to be cast aside because the Holy

916
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 3: Spirit wants it. No, we don't have to say that

917
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 3: at all, And we're not being obstructionist or any Christian.

918
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 3: We're actually being faithful to the dogma.

919
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: Bob.

920
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 2: It does put the faithful in a tough spot because

921
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 2: you know, when you're the pope saying, look, you may

922
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 2: have to get you may have to let these structures

923
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 2: go and just accept it with holy indifference. When that's

924
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 2: the mass, long cherished moral teaching, not long cherished, long

925
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 2: fought for, and the tradition of the church for two

926
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 2: thousand years, We're just going to suddenly allow that to

927
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 2: capsize and say, oh, well, okay.

928
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, and people died for that truth right in that

929
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 4: mess as well. I wish Leo meant that the treasures

930
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 4: should have been in some of the things that they

931
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 4: cherish have sharished for the last several decades. But I

932
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 4: I'm afraid that's not intended in these remarks, because certainly

933
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 4: the measures need some kind of shot in the arm

934
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 4: and reformation themselves.

935
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 5: You know, there's nothing wrong with.

936
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 4: Adapting to new circumstances and doing better at it. But

937
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 4: there's a kind of a progressive ideology that's in this

938
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 4: that you know when you hear people say, and some

939
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 4: of the most fervent followers of the synotal way talk about,

940
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 4: we're not going.

941
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 5: Back, right, We're not going back to what you know.

942
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 4: The world is not only what progressives or leftists say

943
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 4: it is, and the future is going to be with

944
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,760
Speaker 4: we are human beings that are always human in pretty

945
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 4: much the same way we're falling. We're sinful, sometimes we're

946
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 4: capable of great glories, great creations.

947
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 5: Love, etc.

948
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 4: So to go back is just to say that we

949
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 4: want to be fully human, and there may be times

950
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 4: in the past that can help us do that. There

951
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 4: may be times in the future where we discover some

952
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 4: new things. But there's an ideologization of this narrative as

953
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 4: well too, that somehow letting go always means letting go

954
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 4: and moving in a particular direction rather than into that

955
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 4: fuller understanding. This is where someone has written recently that

956
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 4: Leo is still using the same writer's team that Francis did.

957
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 4: And I hope that after he's not as busy with

958
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 4: these jubilee events. I mean, as we get into next

959
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 4: year and he gets towards the end of his first

960
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 4: year of his papacy, he can turn away from all

961
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 4: this activity that he's been engaged in, and he's engaged

962
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 4: in a lot.

963
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 5: There's a lot going out in Rome today endlessly.

964
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 4: And then he can really begin to look, I hope,

965
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 4: and become his own man and to try to get

966
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 4: a team together that's going to put out a strong

967
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 4: message and one that will appeal and try to unify people.

968
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 4: But it's got to be something different than we have

969
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 4: we've had in the past. Clearly, Clearly the Francis years

970
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 4: were not years of unity. And I think a wise

971
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 4: leader and I believe that Leo could be that or.

972
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 5: Could become that.

973
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 4: But have to look back at those years and say, Okay,

974
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 4: there were certain things that he tried to do that

975
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 4: were good, they didn't work.

976
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Well, when you said the people in the

977
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 2: sonataal way say we're not going back, my answer would be,

978
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 2: we don't have to go back. Because what we have

979
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 2: is eternal. You're fine, father, very quickly. The question we

980
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 2: posed at the top is Pope Leo Francis two point zero.

981
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 3: There are many similarities in the content of what has

982
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 3: been said, and there are similarities in the continued endorsement

983
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 3: of the senadol way in the church syndidality. I should

984
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 3: say that this is that whole thing. There are divergences

985
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 3: because Pope Leo does He's very calm, his personality is

986
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 3: to listen, he's gracious, and you know, Pope Francis was

987
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 3: known to be abrasive to people, and you know that's

988
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 3: just the way he was. I'm not inventing that. So

989
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 3: it remains to be saying if this is going to

990
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 3: be a full fledged continuation of what Pope Francis started,

991
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 3: or if there'll be modifications. Right now, it's too hard

992
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 3: to tell, but I would say this, the script writers

993
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 3: are obviously the same because the language I'm reading today,

994
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 3: my memory bank's going, Wait a minute, I think I

995
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:40,959
Speaker 3: heard that seven or eight years ago.

996
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: Bob is Leo Francis two point Oh. I'll give you

997
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 2: the final word.

998
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 5: Oh, the final word. I am so blessed.

999
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 4: I'm going to take up an agnostic position too, because

1000
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 4: obviously we're all kind of wrestling with this.

1001
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 5: But he's a different kind of animal.

1002
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 4: And you know, one of the things that I think

1003
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:10,799
Speaker 4: I admired a great deal about Pope Benedict is that

1004
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 4: he recognized that people in the Church should not be

1005
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 4: subject to these sudden discontinuities. One of the reasons why

1006
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 4: he wanted to bring the two different forms of the

1007
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 4: Western Right into this few fruitful conversation with one another

1008
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 4: is that there was this kind of just break with

1009
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,959
Speaker 4: the old Latin Mass, and you just jumped out into

1010
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 4: something new. So I'm not entirely surprised that he wants

1011
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 4: to keep a certain continuity with Francis. He clearly has

1012
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 4: some affection for Francis. But if he is going to

1013
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 4: be a good pope, if he's going to be the

1014
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 4: leader that I think Christ has called him to be

1015
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 4: in our time, he's also going to have to be

1016
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 4: a different pope. And how he embraces that it's going

1017
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:54,439
Speaker 4: to be quite interesting to see.

1018
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: A great way to end this.

1019
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm not going to absolve myself from

1020
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 2: having to answer the question, so is Pope Leo Francis

1021
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 2: two point zero.

1022
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 1: My answer is simply, I hope not Posse. We are

1023
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: grateful to you all as always.

1024
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 2: If you want more of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse,

1025
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 2: subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or our

1026
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 2: Arroyo Grande podcast channel wherever you get yours on behalf

1027
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 2: of Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray until the Posse rides again,

1028
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 2: Stay the course, follow the light I'm.

1029
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: Reading at Arroyo. We'll see you next time.

1030
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 2: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with DP Studios and

1031
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 2: iHeart podcast and it's available on the iHeartRadio app or

1032
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:51,080
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