1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: The stories we're sharing the season touch on different kinds 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: of trauma. Please take care of yourself while you listen. 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: In the past few episodes, we've met some of the 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: foster parents and states who make up the federal lawsuit 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: Rakkeen v. Holland, and that lawsuit wouldn't exist without them, 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: but it also wouldn't exist without the special interest groups 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: that are working behind the scenes. Our investigation followed the 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: money and found three main groups behind the attack on IQUA, 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: corporate lawyers, right wing funding, and private adoption attorneys. This episode, 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: we're starting with the adoption attorneys because they've been fighting 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: IQUA longer than anyone else. For decades, Native leaders have 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: accused the adoption industry of not following IQUA, of not 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: following the law, but most adoption cases are private, so 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: it's hard to know what's really going on. We were 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: trying to find a way inside when a background source 16 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: told me about this couple, an adoptive couple who were 17 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: willing to talk. 18 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 2: If you were to rewind to two years ago, we 19 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 2: probably also were thinking that it's like a parent who 20 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: doesn't doesn't want to raise the child, and then you 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 2: have a family that wants to have a child, and 22 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 2: it feels like that's the win win that they're describing. 23 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: But you know, I think now we feel a lot more. 24 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 2: We feel like it's a lot more complicated than that. 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: This couple, who will call Jamie and Todd, really wanted 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,639 Speaker 1: their first child to have a sibling, But a year 27 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: and a half after their son was born, Jamie was 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: still recovering from birth injuries, so they decided to grow 29 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: their family through adoption. Once they got through the paperwork, 30 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,639 Speaker 1: the home study, and the upfront fees, they started getting 31 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: emails with profiles of pregnant people. Notice something strange. Jamie 32 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: and Todd live in New Hampshire. 33 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 3: But almost all of the profiles of moms we are 34 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 3: sent were from Arizona. 35 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: Through word of mouth. They had hired an adoption attorney 36 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: in New Hampshire and he worked with a lawyer in 37 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,399 Speaker 1: Arizona who helped find and represent birth moms. Every other 38 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: family they know who went through that New Hampshire lawyer, 39 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: their child has. 40 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 2: Come from Arizona, and that's like at least a dozen 41 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: families I'd say that we know of. 42 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: The Other thing Jamie and Todd noticed was that the 43 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: majority of the babies were children of color. Jamie and 44 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: Todd are white. 45 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 3: I don't remember anyone except maybe the Hampshire one having 46 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 3: a white mom, white dad. End of story. 47 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: And in those emails, Jamie and Todd saw something else, 48 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: native babies being listed with no mention of the Indian 49 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: Child Welfare Act. And when you guys like we're learning 50 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: about the adoption process and went to seminars and stuff 51 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: like that, did you learn about the Indian Child Welfare Act? No? 52 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 3: No, we We were told if there's a Native child, 53 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 3: there's a law called IQUA and it will be more expensive. 54 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 3: But those children are so beautiful, that's what they said. 55 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: Yes, that's true. 56 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: You're listening to This Land, a podcast about the present 57 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: day struggle for Native rights from Cricket Media. I'm your host, 58 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: Rebecca Nagel Goheen dal lacae ge La, citizen of Cherokee Nation. 59 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: This season, we're following how a string of custody battles 60 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: over Native children became a federal lawsuit that threatens everything 61 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: from tribal sovereignty to civil rights. Big organizations that represent 62 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: the adoption industry, like the National Council for Adoption and 63 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: the American Academy of Adoption attorneys have taken the position 64 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: that IQUA shouldn't exist. IQUA is one of the many 65 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: laws in this country that regulates adoption, and the adoption industry, 66 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: like a lot of other industries, frequently fights regulation. The 67 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: industry wants more children to be available for adoption, not less, 68 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: and that's because it's facing a real problem. It feels 69 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: wrong to say this about human children, but it's the truth. 70 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: The problem is supply and demand. 71 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 4: So prior to Roe v. Wade, there were a significantly 72 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 4: higher number of people who were choosing adoption or in 73 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 4: some cases, really forced to place their children for adoption. 74 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: This is Susan dusche Geta Lexander, agency director at PACT, 75 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: an adoption agency that serves children and families of color. 76 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: By the nineteen eighties, women had access to the pill 77 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: and abortion, and it was more acceptable to have a 78 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: child outside of marriage. So the number of babies available 79 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: for adoption fell by a lot, but demand continued to 80 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: go up. One reason was that evangelical Christian churches started 81 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: promoting what they called orphan care as an important ministry. 82 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: You might remember that's how Jennifer brekeeen talked about fostering 83 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: on her blog. Adoption agencies fixed the supply and demand 84 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: problem by looking to other countries. By the mid two thousands, 85 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: a record number of American families were using international adoption 86 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: and the industry was booming. But after the boom came 87 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: the bust. 88 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, a number of countries have stopped allowing US citizens 89 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 4: to adopt their children because of issues of neglect and 90 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 4: abuse of those children. Reports of fraud widespread, you know, bribery, 91 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 4: and as well as you know, some high profile murders 92 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 4: and depths of adopted children from other countries. 93 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: One by one, countries like Guatemala and Ethiopia closed their 94 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: borders to American families. Some adoption agencies went out of business, 95 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: which is why in their list of adoption expenses, Jamie 96 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,559 Speaker 1: and Todd found an odd item a thirty eight hundred 97 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: dollars advertising fee. 98 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 3: She said, that is money that he then reinvests in 99 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 3: advertising to find more birth mothers. And that felt pretty 100 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 3: gross to us. But it was like again, it's like 101 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 3: all baked in, And I asked, like, can we not 102 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: pay that? She's like, if you want to adopt this child, 103 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 3: that's part of the fee. 104 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: You know, those advertisements that say something like pregnant need help. 105 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: Many of those crisis ignancy centers work directly with adoption agencies, 106 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: so when pregnant people reach out, they're not just told 107 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: why they shouldn't get an abortion, they're told why they 108 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: should choose adoption. Lexander has seen a lot of those 109 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: ads like this grit. She saw on one adoption website. 110 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: It had two columns. One column was what you can 111 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,239 Speaker 1: give your child if you parent them. 112 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 4: And all that's written on there is love. And then 113 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 4: here's what I can give my child if I place 114 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 4: them for adoption, And it's like, you know, a stable, 115 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 4: two parent home, extra money for school, the best of everything, 116 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 4: vacations and these are like already filled in by the 117 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 4: adoption agency. 118 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: Lexander is a transracial adoptee herself and placed her first 119 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: child for adoption. 120 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 4: You know, adoption is sort of the transfer of children 121 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 4: from a family that has less resources to a family 122 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 4: that has more. 123 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: And of course, which families have more resources. In the 124 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: United States intersects with race. Three quarters of adopted parents 125 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: in the United States are white. 126 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 4: The landscape is mostly pre adoptive white parents wanting to 127 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 4: adopt white newborns, but the. 128 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,679 Speaker 1: Majority of adopted kids are children of color. Those racial 129 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: dynamics create an awkward hierarchy of which children are most wanted. 130 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 4: It plays out just as white supremacy plays out, that 131 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 4: those races that are perceived as being more proximate to 132 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 4: whiteness are seen as more desirable. 133 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: Every adoption profile I saw listed the race of both parents, 134 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: but some of them listed something I wasn't expecting. Those parents' 135 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: complexions so people could guess what color the baby would be. 136 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: Most Native Americans are more than one race. We're mixed 137 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: more than any other racial group. 138 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 4: Bi racial children, especially those where maybe the parent of 139 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 4: color is lighter skinned, and the adoption professional consertive frame 140 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 4: it is like, oh, like, you know this child is 141 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 4: going to be biracial, and they might be more likely to, 142 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 4: you know, kind of blend into your family, or like 143 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 4: maybe they'll be able to pass as white. 144 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: That's one possible reason Native babies are in demand. While 145 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: the number of white babies being adopted has declined for decades, 146 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: the number of Native babies being adopted has gone up 147 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: even with IQUA in place, and that's because adoption attorneys 148 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: have figured out how to get around the law. That 149 00:09:42,240 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: story after the break. When Jamie and Todd were looking 150 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: at profiles for potential adoptive placements, they said yes to 151 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: most of the ones they saw, and eventually one of 152 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 1: those mothers said yes back. She picked them. But when 153 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: that mom filled out her intake form, she checked this 154 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: box that the baby was Native American. You might think 155 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: that meant Jamie and Todd couldn't adopt the baby because 156 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: Iqua says that baby should go to a native home. 157 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: But that's not how their lawyer saw it. He told 158 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: Jamie and Todd. 159 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 3: Iqua is a thing that means you have to stay 160 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 3: ten extra days and pay ten thousand extra dollars. 161 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: That extra ten thousand dollars was to pay this man. 162 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 5: I know some people think I and my Native America. 163 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: Philip J. McCarthy, he's a lawyer in Arizona. 164 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,719 Speaker 5: Out to the history of what America has done to 165 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 5: Native Americans is you know, there's no way to even 166 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 5: give an excuse for it. But when it comes to adoption. 167 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 5: The collision here is the idea of a parent's individual 168 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 5: rights and the rights of a tribe. 169 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: We reached out to McCarthy, but he declined to talk 170 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: to us. This is from a phone call Todd recorded 171 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: without McCarthy knowing. Once Todd did a little research on McCarthy, 172 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: he learned tribes don't have a good relationship with him. 173 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: He is notorious for fighting iqua. But Jamie and Todd 174 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: didn't want to sidestep what felt like an important law 175 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: so they told their lawyer in New Hampshire they didn't 176 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: want to hire McCarthy. The conversation didn't go over well. 177 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 3: He told them, I'm representing you here. If you want 178 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 3: to do the safest thing and get this child, you're 179 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: going to use McCarthy. 180 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: I'm telling you this high risk. 181 00:11:58,800 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 5: It's high risk. 182 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 3: If you don't want to use McCarthy, I would suggest 183 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 3: that you decide not to adopt this child and you 184 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 3: can look for another match. 185 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: They discussed backing out of the adoption entirely, but. 186 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 2: Like what happens if we just decide to opt out, 187 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 2: Like what if we just say no, Well then they 188 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 2: find another family and statistically it'll be another white family, 189 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: and like which is for me? That was this moment 190 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: where it was like it became very clear to me 191 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 2: that this was a system and like a systematic problem 192 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 2: that isn't solved by our individual choice, so. 193 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: They decided to move forward. Once the wheels were in motion, 194 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:49,719 Speaker 1: they got to see McCarthy at work. Igua requires that 195 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: when a Native child is up for adoption, their tribe 196 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: is notified because the tribe has the right to intervene. 197 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: But McCarthy told Jamie and Todd that didn't need to happen. 198 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: Here he is again from that phone call. 199 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 5: But when it's a voluntary proceeding like this, tripe doesn't 200 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 5: have rights that are equal to a parent, And even 201 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 5: forty years now since it's been enacted, that's still not understood. 202 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 5: It's like a myth that somehow the tribe has the 203 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 5: upper hand in a voluntary proceeding, and that's just not 204 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 5: the long. 205 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 1: His argument is that basically a birth parent has a 206 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: right to privacy and that trumps the tribe's right to 207 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: be notified. But to make sure there are no issues, 208 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: McCarthy goes one step further. 209 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 3: He also told us at that time that you know, 210 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 3: mom is probably going to sign something asking you not 211 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: to contact the tribes for five years. And you may 212 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 3: say why five. 213 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 5: Years, Well, there's a statual limitation, and a statualitation says 214 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 5: you know you don't want to end up with a situation, 215 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 5: or some tribes are just against adoption. I'll just tell 216 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 5: you the NAVA hosts like every adoption period. 217 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: McCarthy also picks the venue. 218 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 5: You're probably thinking, why is this likes you like writing. 219 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 2: In the Yeah, he talked about how he doesn't like 220 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: to go to Phoenix because the judges in Phoenix don't 221 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 2: get it. 222 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: That judge in flag Staff got it. She agreed the 223 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: tribe didn't need to be notified, and they weren't. 224 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 2: I went from thinking that, like they are breaking the 225 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 2: law to thinking, oh, no, they're creating their whole, a 226 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 2: whole different alternate legal reality that they're operating under. 227 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: Collectively, Jamie and Podd's adoption attorneys were paid about thirty 228 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars. And that was just the legal fees. 229 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 3: Part of me feels really gross even just tabulating it, 230 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 3: it was about fifty thousand dollars. 231 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: I asked Jamie and Todd how they feel about the 232 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: adoption now, all. 233 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 3: Ugh, so it's so it's so hard, Like, Okay, we 234 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 3: have the sweetest little baby girl. 235 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: It doesn't it doesn't take long to start to love 236 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: a baby, right, Like, like a couple hours is all 237 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 2: that it takes and yeah, and and so like you know, 238 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: it's it's a it's I I would just say my 239 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: feelings about it are really complicated. The way things are 240 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 2: are structured right now are to take advantage of like 241 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: families that want to have a child that can't and 242 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: are desperate too, and to take advantage of mothers who 243 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: are in like a desperate life situation. And and it's 244 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 2: not it's not a system that like really could exist 245 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 2: if it weren't for those two ingredients for desperation, right right, 246 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: Like my general fear from now until the rest of 247 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: my life is that is that we are not actually 248 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: a good family to raise this child, and like that'll 249 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: be that what I spend the rest of my life 250 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: trying to make not happen. 251 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: Jamie and Todd did reach out to their child's tribe 252 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: and let them know about the adoption. The adoption still 253 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: moved forward and was finalized last June. Over the past 254 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: few decades, the supply chain of adoptable infants has shifted 255 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: multiple times from unwed mothers in the United States to 256 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: countries like Guatemala, Russia, and Ethiopia, and now the industry 257 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: has turned to foster care private adoption agencies have started 258 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: new foster to adopt programs. They're taking people who really 259 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: want to adopt and licensing them to be foster parents. 260 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: Fostering is routinely presented as a pathway to adoption on 261 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: agency websites, but even within foster care there's still a 262 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: supply in problem. There are more people signed up as 263 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: foster to adopt parents than available children, and one state 264 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: that gave us data by a ratio of one hundred 265 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: to one. Jamie and Todd were even told that they 266 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: should think about it well. 267 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 3: Also, she kept telling us it's so much cheaper, but 268 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 3: it didn't feel right. I just don't think I can 269 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 3: handle the heartbreak of having a child for a year 270 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 3: and then having them taken away. And I don't feel 271 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 3: like it's fair to go into an adoption thinking like 272 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 3: a foster situation, thinking like we're gonna get to keep 273 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: this child forever. Because that's working not what the foster 274 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 3: care system's for, right, it's working against the reunification of 275 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 3: the family. 276 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: So far this season, you've heard about two of the 277 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: plaintiffs behind the federal lawsuit, the Brakeenes and the Cliffords. 278 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: When I look at their custody cases. I see the 279 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: same problem, and it's not IQUA. It's people using foster 280 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: care to adopt. Of course, that resulted in heart wrenching conflict, 281 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: because that's not the purpose of foster care. People tried 282 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: to say that IQUA doesn't work because there aren't enough 283 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: Native foster homes, But if you look at the specific 284 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: custody cases behind the federal lawsuit, there's no evidence of 285 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: that every Native child had a Native family who wanted 286 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: to adopt them. For the majority of those kids, it 287 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: was a blood relative. But the white families behind this 288 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: lawsuit fought any Native placement that threatened their chances at adoption, 289 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: and except for Robin Piper's grandma, every other Native family lost. 290 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: These foster parents, Jennifer and Chad Bracken, Danielle and Jason Clifford, 291 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: and their co plaintiff, the Libretties, didn't just fight IQUA. 292 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: They fought to adopt a child over what they're foster 293 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: training told them to expect and do over kinship placements 294 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: that studies and experts say are best for all children, 295 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: over what federal and state laws say should have happened. 296 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: But instead of asking what's wrong about what these foster 297 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: parents did. We're asking what's wrong with IQUA. The story 298 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: of these custody cases isn't about how EQUA prevented white 299 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: families from adopting Native children. It's about how white families 300 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: are getting around the law. One question haunted our reporting 301 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: for months. How did the Brakeens find that law firm, 302 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: Gibson Done. We spent months looking for any connections. We 303 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: looked up everyone who worked on the case, made lists 304 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: of where they went to laws and all their past jobs. 305 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: We chased down a lot of bad leads. But finally, 306 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: one day we got the answer what our investigation found 307 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: after the break. After months of trying to find out 308 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: how the Brakins got connected to Gibson Done, one day, 309 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: their local Texas lawyer answered the phone. She told us 310 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: that it wasn't her or the Brakiens that found Gibson Done. 311 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: It was this other lawyer, an adoption attorney in Minnesota 312 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: who specializes in IQUA. He even helps the Brakins find 313 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: her on the phone. She couldn't remember his name. She 314 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: later confirmed it by email, but we already knew exaus 315 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: exactly who she was talking about, because this Minnesota attorney 316 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: has a national reputation for fighting IQUA. He's been part 317 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: of more constitutional challenges to the law than anyone else. 318 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: And his name is Mark Fiddler. 319 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 6: I mean, I got tired of Indian people carrying around 320 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 6: this victim mentality, so that everything that happens with iqua's 321 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 6: like some kind of assault on them. I mean, you 322 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 6: want to talk about getting out of a self defeating narrative, 323 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 6: that's a good one to get rid of the idea 324 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 6: that Indians are victims. 325 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: Fiddler declined to speak with me for this podcast, so 326 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: we're using tape from a documentary called Blood Memory based 327 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: on our reporting. Fiddler is how the Brakeenes and the 328 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: Cliffords got connected to the big federal lawsuit. He was 329 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: the one who made sure this case to strike down 330 00:21:54,240 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: IQUA had plaintiffs. Fiddler is native himself, a citizen the 331 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians. Here he is again 332 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: from the film Blood Memory. 333 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 6: People look at me and see a white lawyer. 334 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: I've got blue eyes. 335 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 6: So my mother said, well, don't worry about people thinking 336 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 6: you're Indian because your blue eyes will save you. And 337 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 6: I thought, well, why do I need to be saved? 338 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 5: What's that about? So there was some. 339 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 6: Shame growing up being identified as Indian. You know, I 340 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 6: really wanted to blend in. And one of the unfortunate 341 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 6: things I know racism on a very very personal level. 342 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 4: Kids at school will call me chief or. 343 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: They couldn't figure out what I was. After law school, 344 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: Fiddler was trying to figure out what he wanted to do, 345 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: and he was concerned with how Native families were being 346 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: treated by the child welfare system. 347 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 6: And I was just seeing all these cases where these 348 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 6: Indian families are coming into juvenile court and their kids 349 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 6: are being removed from the home. 350 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: And so in the nineteen nineties, Mark helped start a 351 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: nonprofit to provide those families legal services, the Equa Law. 352 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 6: Center, and we serve people for free Indian families throughout 353 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 6: Minnesota and ran that about five years. 354 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: As Mark tells it, he eventually left the Equa Law 355 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: Center when he became disillusioned with IQUA because of this 356 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: theory called attachment. The theory says if you remove a 357 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: child from caregivers they've attached to, you can harm that 358 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: child permanently. 359 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 6: Where children are placed in non Indian homes because they 360 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 6: couldn't find family that was ready to take them, and 361 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 6: then after several years the children are removed in that 362 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 6: attachment broken and we damaged children to comply with this 363 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 6: blanket rule about at always being best a place with family. 364 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 6: I don't think that's in the tribe's centrists for our 365 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 6: children to be psychologically damaged and then handed over to 366 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 6: the custody of the tribe or placed in a travel home, 367 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 6: so you can, in a sense, sort of destroy the 368 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 6: child to save the village. 369 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: So Fiddler says, because of this change in perspective, he 370 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: left the Equalas Center. But when I talked to former 371 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: employees and board members, I got a different story. They 372 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: said he left abruptly and on bad terms, after a 373 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: disagreement with the board about how he had used grant money. 374 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: Fiddler denies this, but declined to elaborate. It wasn't immediate, 375 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: but after a few years Fiddler started showing up in 376 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: EQUA cases again, but this time he was representing white 377 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: families who wanted to adopt Native children. He flipped and 378 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: he managed to get some big attention for one of 379 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: his early cases. All new Doctor phil adoptions gone. In 380 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: two thousand and five, Fiddler's clients got to tell their 381 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: story on Doctor Phil. Shannon Smith remembers that Doctor Phil segment. 382 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: She represented the Native mom in the case, and it's 383 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: the director of the EQUA Law Center today. 384 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 7: Doctor Phil told her story without her voice, without contacting us, 385 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 7: So it was really a story that was told about 386 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 7: her instead of anyone letting her tell her story. That 387 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 7: she was someone who didn't care about her child, didn't 388 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 7: love her child, and had abandoned her child was really 389 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 7: the story. As the media took off at the time. 390 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: On Doctor Phil. Fiddler's clients did tell their story about 391 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,959 Speaker 1: how they had taken in a Native child, but because 392 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: of an outdated law, that child was being taken from 393 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: the only home he had ever known. The case also 394 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: got a lot of local press. Ultimately, it was settled 395 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: outside of court and the White family adopted the Native child. 396 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: Fiddler continued to represent families fighting IQUA and started to 397 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: gain a national reputation. In the early twenty tens, he 398 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: joined the American Academy of Adoption Attorneys and got pulled 399 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: into a case that attracted national attention. Seeing Fiddler's name 400 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 1: pop up worried Smith. 401 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 7: And my immediate reaction was to reach out to people 402 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 7: I knew who were involved in the case at the 403 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 7: time and let them know of what I anticipated in 404 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 7: what I expected based on what I had seen in Minnesota. 405 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 7: Kind of the strategy having media involved in the case 406 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 7: in a really prominent way. 407 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: And she was right. That story that did so well 408 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: in the early years of Fiddler's career came back again 409 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: on Doctor Phil. They adopted a Native American baby until 410 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: the tribe stepped in. 411 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 5: They had to turn her over. 412 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 4: How do you explain to a two year old that 413 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 4: you might not ever see them again if you want 414 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 4: to commit cultural genocide steal a people's children. 415 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 5: Are you suggesting this child was stolen? We were told 416 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 5: we couldn't adopt them because we are white and they 417 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 5: are in you. 418 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 7: That's not why. 419 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: What I hear you saying is what's best for the 420 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 2: tribe and not what's best for the child. 421 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: Next Doctor Phil. It was bizarre to watch because the 422 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: story told on Doctor Phil got repeated by CNN, NPR, 423 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: the Washington Post, you name it. 424 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 2: For two years. 425 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 3: The Kappa Biancos raised Veronica in their South Carolina home. 426 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: They had raised her for two years and were in 427 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: the process of adopting her when a South Carolina family 428 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: court ordered them to hand her over to the Campo Riancos. 429 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: We're not giving up the fight for the child they 430 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: had raised in loved since birth. The case went all 431 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: the way to the United States Supreme Court. This one 432 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 1: case ignited a much bigger attack on EQUA, and that's 433 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: because it attracted the attention of some very powerful lawyers. Now, 434 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: the campaign against IQUA isn't being led by adoption attorneys 435 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: like Mark Fiddler or j McCarthy. It's being led by 436 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: some of the most powerful lawyers in the country, lawyers 437 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: whose practice has nothing to do with adoption or family 438 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: law or even children, but has a lot to do 439 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: with something else, the corporations and industries that would make 440 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: more money if Native rights went away next time. On 441 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: this land. Given some of the players, there is ultimately 442 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: an oil and gas angle. 443 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 7: It literally could call into question all of federal Indian law, 444 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 7: so issues like reservation status, land use, water rights, gaming. 445 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 4: It's not about it was never about kids. 446 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 3: Hey y'all, Hey, Hey y'all. Hey. 447 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: This Land is reported written and hosted by me Rebecca 448 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: Nagle Goheen, citizen of Cherokee Nation. Additional reporting this season 449 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: from Maddie Stone, Martha Troyan citizen of o b Chika, 450 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: Kong lack Suol, First Nation, and Amy Westervelt from Cricket Media. 451 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Jon Favreau, Sarah geismer Lyra Smith 452 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: and Katie Long, with special things to Alison Falsetta from 453 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: Critical Frequency. Our managing producer is Amy Westervelt. Our senior 454 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: producer is Sarah Ventry, and our story editor is Raca 455 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: Murphytional editing for Martha Troyan and Polly Dnett Claw who 456 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: is Deney. Sound design by Lyras Smith, Mark Bush and 457 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: Charlotte Landis. Original score composed by Jared Tate, citizen of 458 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: Chickistan Nation. Our outra song is an honor song for adoptees, 459 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: written and sung by Jerry Dearly, who is Oglala Lakota. 460 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: Our fact checker is woudn Yan. Our First Amendment Attorney 461 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: is James Wheaton, founder of The First Amendment Project podcast. 462 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: Art by Kelly Gonzalez, citizen of Cherokee Nation. Additional reporting 463 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: from producer Alison Herrera who is hol on Selenin additional 464 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: thanks for this episode to Drew Nicholas and the crew 465 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: behind the documentary Blood Memory. You can find it online 466 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: at bloodmemory dot com. Additional thanks to Gary Deebilee and 467 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: Catherine Joyce. If you're enjoying the show, please rate, review 468 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: and subscribe. It helps more people find us, and please 469 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: share it with your friends. If you have a tip 470 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: or information to share related to our reporting, you can 471 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: do that securely and anonymously through our secure drop. You 472 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: can find a link in the show notes. To see 473 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: a timeline of the court cases challenging EQUA, go to 474 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: our website this landpodcast dot com. This season of this 475 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: Land touches on different forms of family, childhood, and racial trauma. 476 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: If you feel like you could use support, please check 477 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: our show notes or website this landpodcast dot com to 478 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: find resources for adoptees and survivors of childhood trauma, abuse, 479 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: foster care, and boarding schools