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Speaker 1: Live from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg sound on.

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Speaker 1: This is about infrastructure that can lead the economic growth

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Speaker 1: for a generation. We need to make sure that we

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Speaker 1: established the comprehend the Faber security strategy. Republicans have a

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Speaker 1: great chance of taking the House. In Bloomberg sound on,

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Speaker 1: the insiders, the influencers, the insiders. We continue to open

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Speaker 1: this economy slowly, but it's coming back. I want to

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Speaker 1: know what the theme is going to be for Republicans.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine a more important person in Washington right

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Speaker 1: now than Senator Joe Manchin Bloomberg sitned on with Joe

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Speaker 1: Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome, as we restore the heart

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Speaker 1: of capitalism in Washington. That's what Joe Biden says he's

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Speaker 1: doing as the President signs an executive order to promote

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Speaker 1: competition and to lift wages, all in the midst of

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Speaker 1: a worker shortage. We'll talk about the big EO coming

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Speaker 1: up with Bloomberg intelligence analyst Jen Ry and later FTC

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Speaker 1: former FTC Chair William Covis, which will be with us.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk as well this hour with Massachusetts Congressman Jake

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Speaker 1: Aukin Class who fought in Hellmann Province. We'll talk about

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Speaker 1: the draw down in Afghanistan and the evacuation of our allies,

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Speaker 1: and of course Bloomberg political contributors Geenie she and Zano

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Speaker 1: and Rick Davis are with us. We have a full

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Speaker 1: hour ahead, and thank you for sharing part of your

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Speaker 1: Friday with us. The sun even came out. I'm in

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg's Boston bureau happily today looking at blue sky. We

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Speaker 1: finally got through at least most of the rain and

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Speaker 1: the tough weather, the wind from Elsa, so we made it.

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Speaker 1: It seems Washington is obsessed with competition right now, or

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Speaker 1: a lack of it. As we've discussed on this program

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Speaker 1: more than once. There's a series of anti trust legislation

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Speaker 1: in the works now on Capitol Hill, and now it's

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Speaker 1: on both sides of Pennsylvania Avenue. Here's President Biden. I

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Speaker 1: know America cantser less American business succeeds. Let me be

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Speaker 1: very clear, capitalism without competition isn't capitalism, it's exploitation. Speaking

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Speaker 1: today at the White House, as you heard on Bloomberg Radio,

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Speaker 1: presidents sign an executive order to boost competition in this country,

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Speaker 1: impacting almost every industry from agriculture to airlines, banking, the

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Speaker 1: big tech, all in an effort, the President says, to

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Speaker 1: reverse the sharp increase in consolidation that we've seen over

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Speaker 1: the past twenty years. Here he is again, I expect

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Speaker 1: the federal agencies and they know this, to help restore

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Speaker 1: competition so that we have lower prices, higher wages, more money,

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Speaker 1: more options, more convenience for the American people. This is

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Speaker 1: a big order and for more detail, we're joined by

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Intelligence analyst Jennifer Ree. Jen Good Friday, it's great

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Speaker 1: to have you back. Thank you so much, thanks for

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Speaker 1: having me. This executive order includes seventy two initiatives by

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Speaker 1: more than a dozen federal agencies, essentially the entire executive branch.

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Speaker 1: How would this all work? That's right, And you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not even clear that that many of these directives

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Speaker 1: or encouragements that are in this order can actually be

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Speaker 1: implemented by the agencies directed to take the measures. You know,

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Speaker 1: I have to say that each of these agencies has

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Speaker 1: its own separate enabling statute and its own rules and

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Speaker 1: procedures that are unique to the agencies. So there are

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Speaker 1: different processes and procedures that apply to the rulemaking of

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Speaker 1: each one, and I'm certainly not an expert on each one.

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Speaker 1: But with respect, let's say to the antitrust agency, the

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Speaker 1: Federal Trade Commission, you know, which is in here quite

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Speaker 1: a bit across the board in terms of rules and measures.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's rulemaking activity has been dormant, I mean

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Speaker 1: for many years, and the extent of its authority to

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Speaker 1: actually issue certain rules substant rules is unclear. So I

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Speaker 1: do think even though the FTC does have an intention

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Speaker 1: to follow through UH to issue rules to follow the

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Speaker 1: encouragements in this executive order, they will face some hurdles

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Speaker 1: and probably face some court challenges, so we're not really

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Speaker 1: looking at a near term threat yet. Well, does a

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Speaker 1: lot of this order does a lot more than keep

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Speaker 1: companies from merging or requiring one another getting bigger. It

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Speaker 1: seeks to lower drug prices jim, give farmers the right

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Speaker 1: to repair their own tractors, make it harder for airlines

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Speaker 1: to hike fees. It's coming from all sides here, and

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Speaker 1: Congress gets no saying this right, you know it. This

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Speaker 1: targets all of the industries that have been coming up

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Speaker 1: in academic writings for years as being way too concentrated

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Speaker 1: and having abuses, problems and abuses related to excessive concentration UM,

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Speaker 1: and Congress is actually already tackling some of this. I

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Speaker 1: think that this executive order aligns most closely with the

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Speaker 1: bill that has been sponsored by Amy Klobascher in the

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Speaker 1: Senate because her bill, unlike those in the House that

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Speaker 1: really are just looking big tech UM and trying to

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Speaker 1: tame big tech, her bill actually is addressed across industries

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Speaker 1: to any industries that have a concentration problem, trying to

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Speaker 1: stem that tide and trying to do something about that

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Speaker 1: continued concentration. And so we do have measures in Congress

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Speaker 1: that are somewhat aligned in certain ways with this executive order.

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Speaker 1: They certainly don't go into detail, like you know, hearing

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Speaker 1: aids that should be you know, over the counter rather

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Speaker 1: than prescription, you know, into the weeds that this goes

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Speaker 1: into UM. But conceptually, yes, there is UH an idea

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Speaker 1: in Congress that is similar. Not to be confused with

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Speaker 1: the Cicillini bills. There's a lot of this stuff in

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Speaker 1: the air right now. Jen r is kind to help

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Speaker 1: us figure it all out. From Bloomberg Intelligence. Great to

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Speaker 1: have you back again, Jen of course, the Federal Trade

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Speaker 1: Commission would handle a lot of this work, at least

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Speaker 1: some of this work. And we're joined out by a

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Speaker 1: man who used to run that agency, former FTC Chair

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Speaker 1: William Covid Sick. Welcome to Bloomberg Radio. Great to be here,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for starters. Does the FTC have

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Speaker 1: the capacity the manpower to handle all this work? Well,

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Speaker 1: one of the critical elements of the legislative packages that

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Speaker 1: you just referred to includes a big boost and resources

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Speaker 1: for the Federal Trade Commission and Department of Justice. And

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Speaker 1: this set of commands and aspirations we saw today can't

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Speaker 1: possibly be fulfilled unless those additional resources are forthcoming. The

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Speaker 1: FTC can do some of this, but if you want

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Speaker 1: to take on the full agenda that you've just referred to,

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Speaker 1: you have to have more resources. So that's an indispensable

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Speaker 1: starting point. And would the FTC have to work with

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Speaker 1: all of these other agencies or as you read it,

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Speaker 1: would each agency have its own separate charge. Well. The

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Speaker 1: grand vision here is what President Biden refers to as

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Speaker 1: the whole of the government competition policy, and the aim

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Speaker 1: is to join up different federal agencies and a collaborative

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Speaker 1: process to achieved results that individually would be unattainable. So

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Speaker 1: the big vision, which is enormously ambitious, is to get

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Speaker 1: these different parts of the national government to work together

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Speaker 1: to achieve pro competitive ends. And we know there's a

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Speaker 1: long history of government agencies doing that in some areas,

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Speaker 1: but it's not one big, happy family, and there's going

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Speaker 1: to be nothing easy about doing that. Well no, uh, look,

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Speaker 1: you've been there. You know just exactly how easy it

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Speaker 1: is to get a bunch of federal agencies to work together.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious those was this being talked about, Where the

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Speaker 1: beginning stages of this concept being talked about in the

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Speaker 1: Obama administration when you were all together? Oh yes, indeed,

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Speaker 1: there have been prototypes for this in the past, and

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Speaker 1: when you look at smaller microscopic experiments involving say two

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Speaker 1: agencies collaborating on a specific project, there are nice success stories.

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Speaker 1: But I think one lesson from all those experiences is

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Speaker 1: that if you want to accomplish this division, you're going

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Speaker 1: to have to be in it for the long run.

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Speaker 1: This is not a hundred meter dash. This is a

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Speaker 1: marathon plus probably an ultra marathon, and it won't be

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Speaker 1: credible or successful unless the President and his colleagues are

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Speaker 1: willing Dan today out to say this matters to me

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Speaker 1: and I want us to put this in place. Well,

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Speaker 1: i'll tell you, Mr Chairman, the timing of this is

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Speaker 1: compelling to me because we talked so much about a

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Speaker 1: worker shortage in this country, a shortage so bad that

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Speaker 1: wages are rising in some cases ten the Beige Book

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Speaker 1: had one in Boston went up. The National Association of

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Speaker 1: Manufacturers describes the order today as a solution in search

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Speaker 1: of a problem, and I wonder if this could exaggerate

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Speaker 1: what's already happening in the job market, where wages are

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Speaker 1: already rising due to this shortage of labor. I think

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Speaker 1: a major assumption here is that one way to drive

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Speaker 1: are more people into the workforce and to draw them

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Speaker 1: in productively, is to pay them a higher wage, and

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Speaker 1: that you're going to get better results. That way, you

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Speaker 1: get a better workforce or get better outcomes, and that

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Speaker 1: in the number of instances the order is focused on

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Speaker 1: opening up artificially constrained markets where there are artificial limits

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Speaker 1: on entry into a market because licensing restrictions are not

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Speaker 1: well justified. So there's an ingredient here bringing people into

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Speaker 1: the workplace by taking away artificial impediments and getting their

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Speaker 1: way to going into the market. In a sense, President

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Speaker 1: Biden is telling the entire federal government take a look

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Speaker 1: at what you do to make sure that you don't

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Speaker 1: place those obstacles in the path of people with skills.

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Speaker 1: It brings us to non compete agreements, many of which

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Speaker 1: I have had to sign in my career. The President

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Speaker 1: says he wants them gone. Here's what he said about

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Speaker 1: non competes. Look, I'm not going to now, but I

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Speaker 1: used to talk about in there's noncompete clauses or people

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Speaker 1: running um uh, the machines that lay down asphalt. If

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Speaker 1: in fact, you get offered a job and you have

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Speaker 1: you know you're in Arkansas doing it. A lot of

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Speaker 1: specific examples. You can't take a job in West Texas

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Speaker 1: to do it. What in the hell does that have

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Speaker 1: to do with anything? No, I'm serious. Or there were

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Speaker 1: clauses in McDonald's contracts. You can't leave Burger King to

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Speaker 1: go to McDonald's. Come on, is there a trade secret

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Speaker 1: about what's inside that patty? Now? But I'm serious. He's

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Speaker 1: begging me to ask where's the beef? But Mr Chairman,

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Speaker 1: some of these are egregious, aren't There also instances, though,

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Speaker 1: where companies need non competes to protect their intellectual property.

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Speaker 1: We have only a minute left. I wonder what you

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Speaker 1: thought about that. I think the the the assumption behind

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Speaker 1: the executive order is that there are other ways to

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Speaker 1: protect that I p uh, that you'll rely on trade

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Speaker 1: secret law, that you'll still be able to protect the

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Speaker 1: I p And as as you and Jenn were saying

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Speaker 1: a moment ago, there's a high likelihood that this calendar year,

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Speaker 1: the FTC will issue a rule that seeks to prohibit

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Speaker 1: non competes nationwide. That will be the first big measure

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Speaker 1: to put this agenda in place, make it a lot easier,

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Speaker 1: I guess here on the president, former FTC chair Bill

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Speaker 1: Kovi sick. Great to talk with you today, Bill, come

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Speaker 1: back and see us again. Coming up on Bloomberg's sound

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Speaker 1: on the US collapsed back at China, putting over a

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Speaker 1: dozen Chinese companies on the blacklist. What is the blacklist?

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about it all with Bloomberg Chief economist Tom Orleck.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe Matthew, this is Bloomberg, This is Bloomberg. So

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Speaker 1: long with Joe of you on Bloomberg Radio. Good to

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Speaker 1: have you with us, Welcome to Friday, Welcome to sound

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Speaker 1: on here on Bloomberg Radio, Washington has spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time talking about and well worrying about China. This week,

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Speaker 1: investors too. After the crackdown on d D following other

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Speaker 1: major companies like Ali Baba, now the Commerce Department is

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Speaker 1: adding over a dozen Chinese companies to the so called

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Speaker 1: economic blacklist over alleged abuse of weaker Muslims and other

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Speaker 1: minorities in the Xinjiang province in an autonomous region. So

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Speaker 1: the first call we made was to Tom Orlick when

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Speaker 1: I saw this headline on the terminal US blacklist, fourteen

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Speaker 1: more Chinese firms over rights abuses, essentially continuing a conversation

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Speaker 1: we started this week with Tom's big take. He's Bloomberg's

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Speaker 1: chief economists, lived and worked in China for years. Welcome back, Tom,

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Speaker 1: It's good to have you. Good. This is a story

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Speaker 1: of forced labor. Up to a million minorities Muslims in

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Speaker 1: that region have been put into what Beijing calls re

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Speaker 1: education camps. What are those? So the concern from the

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Speaker 1: international community, UM and one of the drivers of this

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Speaker 1: latest move by the US government is about human rights

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Speaker 1: abuses in Shijang, which is a province in the northwest

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Speaker 1: of China. UM and we've seen growing concern about developments

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Speaker 1: in the province. UM and the United States, Europe, other

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Speaker 1: parts of the world are starting to move against UM.

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Speaker 1: We move against the Chinese government. We've seen this embargoes

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Speaker 1: on firms which are seen tied to activities in Shinjiang.

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Speaker 1: We've also seen sanctions on officials who are seen as

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Speaker 1: being tied to the human rights of pieces this blacklist.

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Speaker 1: We're adding fourteen names. How how many are on and

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Speaker 1: how long is this list already? So it's interesting, Joe.

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Speaker 1: The focus is partly on firms which are from the region.

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Speaker 1: Shinjang is a big producer or cotton, some other agricultural products. UM.

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Speaker 1: It's a place which a lot of solar panels or

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Speaker 1: materials for solar panels come from. So that's part of

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Speaker 1: the focus. The other part of the focus technology firms

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Speaker 1: which are seen as in one way or another enabling

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Speaker 1: Chinese policies in the region. So that's companies which produce

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Speaker 1: things like surveillance cameras for example. And this is as

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Speaker 1: I mentioned an autonomous region. Shinjang is somewhere the Chinese

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Speaker 1: government really Beijing is not supposed to be meddling with business.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? And how could you describe that? Well?

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Speaker 1: The question, Joe, I think the term autonomous ye the

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Speaker 1: the atternment that you use the term autonomous correctly. Xinjiang,

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Speaker 1: in common with Tibet, is referred to in China as

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Speaker 1: a semi autonomous region. In reality, it's actually in Shinjiang

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Speaker 1: and Tibet where the Chinese government exercise some of our

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Speaker 1: strictest controls and where sort of local freedom of movement

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Speaker 1: autonomy is actually the smallest. What does this mean, time

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Speaker 1: than for our relationship for trade between our two countries

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Speaker 1: are big take today separately looks at China's crackdown on

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Speaker 1: DIT as I mentioned, it draws the conclusion essentially that

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Speaker 1: China in the US, despite all of this noise, still

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Speaker 1: need each other economically. So there are various different things

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Speaker 1: happening at the same time. Joe does the mole standing

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Speaker 1: concern about forced technology transfer, intellectual property fast subsidies for

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Speaker 1: Chinese that gives them an unfair advantage in global markets.

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Speaker 1: And those were the concerns that prompted the trade war

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Speaker 1: under the Trump administration and prompted the tariffs moving into place.

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Speaker 1: There are also concerns in the West about human rights

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Speaker 1: abuses in Shinjeng which are prompting these fanctions against specific

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Speaker 1: firms from the region and other firms who are allegedly

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Speaker 1: involved in uh in Chinese government activities there. And then

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Speaker 1: the d D piece of it is separate. Again, the

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Speaker 1: d D piece of it, d D for for listeners

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Speaker 1: who want familiar with the company, is kind of the

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Speaker 1: Chinese uber. The concern there for the Chinese is about data.

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Speaker 1: They don't want the data which d D has on

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Speaker 1: where all of their drivers are and where all their

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Speaker 1: passages are and who's going where. They don't want that

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Speaker 1: data to be available to investors in the United States

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Speaker 1: or even left the U S. Government. So you have

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Speaker 1: all of these things, concerns about fantasy trade, concerned about

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Speaker 1: human rights, concerns about data and national security, and they

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Speaker 1: all point towards a praying of types of a disintegration

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Speaker 1: of breakdown in US China ties across across trade, across finance,

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Speaker 1: across data. There's a lot there, and I would point

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Speaker 1: everyone to the big take today China's d D crackdown

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Speaker 1: is all about controlling big data. It will add a

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Speaker 1: lot of context to this blacklist story. Tom or like,

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Speaker 1: great to have you back and thanks for spending part

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Speaker 1: of your Friday with us here on Bloomberg. Sound on

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Speaker 1: the great example that's drawn up in this story, by

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Speaker 1: the way, is Tom talks about the concern about sharing data.

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Speaker 1: Shortly after Beijing Shock, cyber security probe into Deedy. It

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Speaker 1: says Chinese social media users furiously passed around a story

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Speaker 1: on the uber like app that showed what might be

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Speaker 1: spooking President. She screenshots circulated a breezy state media for it.

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Speaker 1: We read here on a d D study, It revealed

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Speaker 1: how bureaucrats use the company's services on to sweltering July

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Speaker 1: days in Beijing. You could actually follow them and figure

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Speaker 1: out where they were going. Coming up on Bloomberg, the

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Speaker 1: fence around the US capitals coming down. We're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about security around the capitol and the draw down in

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan and protecting our allies who are still there. With

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Speaker 1: Congressman Jake Aukincloss of Massachusetts, a marine who fought in

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Speaker 1: Hellmann Province. He's next. I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: broadcasting live from our nation's capital, Bloomberg to New York,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg eleven, Frio to San Francisco, Bloomberg nine six to

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Speaker 1: the country Sirius XM Channel one, and around the globe

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Business app. Ben Bloomberg Radio dot com. This

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Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Sound on with your mapew Great to have

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Speaker 1: you with us. Thanks for spending part of your Friday

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Speaker 1: here on Bloomberg Radio. It's one of the biggest questions

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Speaker 1: hanging over the US military withdrawal from Afghanistan. What will

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Speaker 1: happen to the Afghan interpreters, drivers, and others who helped

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Speaker 1: to protect Americans over at the past twenty years. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk about that and security around the capital. Coming up

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Speaker 1: with Congressman Jake Aukincloss of Massachusetts. There are thousands of

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Speaker 1: men and women in Afghanistan who risked their lives to

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Speaker 1: protect Americans over the past two decades. Interpreters, drivers, helpers

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Speaker 1: we hear about so often. Now that their lives are

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Speaker 1: potentially at risk. President Biden explained yesterday that they cannot

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Speaker 1: be evacuated to the US along with our troops due

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Speaker 1: to existing law, and today White House Press Secretary Jen

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Speaker 1: Saki was pressed on the long wait times they're facing

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Speaker 1: for visas. What we are trying to determine is US

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Speaker 1: facilities and aces that are located in different parts of

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Speaker 1: the world where we can house these brave and courageous

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Speaker 1: individuals while they're processing continues. It's an important issue for

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Speaker 1: Congressman Jake Aukin Class, a Democrat from Massachusetts and a

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Speaker 1: marine who fought in Hellman Province where he led combat

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Speaker 1: patrols as a captain, and he's with us now. Congressman,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Bloomberg. Sound on good to be back. How

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Speaker 1: concerned are you that some of these men and women

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Speaker 1: will be left behind. It's about keeping our promise as Americans.

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Speaker 1: Several years ago, Donald Trump turned his back on the

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Speaker 1: Koords after we made promises to them during Operation Iraqi Freedom,

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Speaker 1: and they were massacred. We cannot repeat that mistake here,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think President Biden will. President Biden has

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Speaker 1: been keeping his promises in the first six months of

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Speaker 1: his administration, and I think he's going to keep his

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Speaker 1: promise to bring these eighteen thousand or so interpreters out

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Speaker 1: of harm's way and ultimately to the United States or

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Speaker 1: wherever they feel secure. Is he doing the right thing

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Speaker 1: by pulling out troops next month? Yes, twenty years is

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Speaker 1: long enough. We could fight another hundred years in Afghanistan.

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Speaker 1: We would win every battle against the Taliban as we

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Speaker 1: did when I was there, and still lose the war.

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Speaker 1: Because while we have been able to give Afghans many

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Speaker 1: of the tools of nation hood, from state institutions to

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Speaker 1: economic development to an army, we cannot build a nation

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Speaker 1: for them. They must do that. Yeah, you were operating

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Speaker 1: in villages that were contested by the Taliban. How does

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Speaker 1: it feel this many years later, you know the Taliban

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Speaker 1: is on the way to taking back the country. Well,

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Speaker 1: to be blunt, it was obvious in when I was

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Speaker 1: there that they were going to take back the parts

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Speaker 1: of the country was patrolling through. Absolutely. This has never

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Speaker 1: been a military solution, and that is the real tragedy

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Speaker 1: of the last of the years is that while the military,

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Speaker 1: the U S Military, and NATO allies operated with great

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Speaker 1: professionalism and executed honorably, they were never given a mission

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Speaker 1: by politicians here in the United States that was actually achievable.

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Speaker 1: This is a political and nation building exercise that must

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Speaker 1: be led by Afghans themselves. It cannot be policed by

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Speaker 1: NATO and US military forces. How does a young man

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Speaker 1: or a young woman enlisted rationalize that though you leave

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Speaker 1: your family, you leave your country. You put your life

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Speaker 1: on the line in a scary place overseas. You've seen

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Speaker 1: your brothers and sisters in combat, in some cases fall,

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Speaker 1: some don't make it home. And then you hear from

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Speaker 1: the President there's no mission accomplished. Moments and I know

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Speaker 1: that there's there's a lot of complexity around that statement,

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Speaker 1: but there is not going to be a victory parade here, Congressman.

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Speaker 1: Just because there's no victory finish line doesn't mean no

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Speaker 1: good was done. We decimated the Taliban, We killed Osama

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Speaker 1: bin Laden. We along with NGOs and our NATO allies,

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Speaker 1: architected many of the institutions of the Afghan state. We

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Speaker 1: empowered women and girls. We uh provided for an economic

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Speaker 1: future for many Afghans. We built an Afghan army and

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Speaker 1: trained it and provided logistical support. The tools are there

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Speaker 1: for Afghan nation hood and for more stability, but the

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Speaker 1: central government in Kabul and the Afghan people must now

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Speaker 1: seize it well. To that end, I thank you for

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Speaker 1: your service, Congressman, and I'd like to ask you about

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Speaker 1: security around the Capitol building following January six is something

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Speaker 1: that I talked to you about shortly after that happened.

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Speaker 1: People should know that day was essentially your introduction to Congress,

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Speaker 1: second time on the House floor. Yes, indeed, what are

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Speaker 1: you remembering at this point from that day? As a

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Speaker 1: security bill and a security enhancement bill sits for months

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Speaker 1: in the Senate going, it seems right now nowhere it's

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Speaker 1: our on it that Republicans are on their way to

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Speaker 1: voting to defund the police for the second time in

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Speaker 1: the seventeen Congress. We need to provide the Capitol police

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Speaker 1: the personnel and the training required to keep the capital safe.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, I think the removal of the

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Speaker 1: temporary fencing is the right thing to do. I've been

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Speaker 1: calling for that for months. In fact, the capital should

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Speaker 1: be permeable to the public. It should be open to

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Speaker 1: journalists and advocates and constituents and taxpayers who want to

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Speaker 1: come and hold me and my colleagues accountable as they

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Speaker 1: well should. It's the people's house. You can have both

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Speaker 1: a permeable capital that the public feels like they can access,

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Speaker 1: along with what's called the military Parliament is a hard target,

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Speaker 1: something that would be difficult to attack. Those two things

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Speaker 1: are not mutually exclusive, and we need to uh and

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Speaker 1: in fact, I think it's core to our democracy that

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Speaker 1: we're able to do both. Your story from the sixth

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Speaker 1: was harrowing, and I think we can agree that you

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Speaker 1: came pretty close to some real trouble that day. What

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Speaker 1: are you tell your colleagues in the House, your Republican

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Speaker 1: colleagues in the House who voted against January six Commission,

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Speaker 1: or your colleagues in the Senate who refused to advance

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Speaker 1: this bill. They're choosing Trump over truth. And the GOP

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Speaker 1: has had so many forks in the road over the

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Speaker 1: last several years to do what's right by the country

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Speaker 1: and the Constitution, and instead they keep on choosing to

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Speaker 1: bow down to this narcissist who has never done anything

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Speaker 1: for them and cares only for himself. The GOP needs

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Speaker 1: to break this fever. Do you let a shared experience

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Speaker 1: though Congressman, you guys were in danger together. Do you

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Speaker 1: remind them of that? Ah? You know, as a general

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Speaker 1: rule me in my office, we work with Republicans who

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Speaker 1: recognize that Joe Budden was the free and fair winner

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Speaker 1: of the elections. We really do not work with Republicans

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Speaker 1: who are circulating the big lie and doubling down on sedition. Well,

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Speaker 1: that answers that I'd like to talk to you again

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Speaker 1: if and when that legislation moves or when we get

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Speaker 1: some findings from the January six Commission. And as I

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Speaker 1: sit here in a sunny afternoon, a sunny Friday, back

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Speaker 1: in Boston for just a moment, I thank you Congressman

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Speaker 1: Jakekalwkin class for being with us coming up on Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: sound On to the Moon or at least the edge

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Speaker 1: of space for Richard Branson Virgin Galactic. This is the

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Speaker 1: big weekend we're gonna talk about. This weekend's launched in

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Speaker 1: the Battle of the Billionaires. Next, I'm Joe Matthew. This

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Speaker 1: is Bloomberg m This is Bloomberg sond On with Joe

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Speaker 1: Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for joining us today on

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Speaker 1: bloom Bird sound On, brought to you by SEI. Asset

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Speaker 1: I flew on an airplane this morning for the first

432
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: time since COVID. I didn't even really think about it

433
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: until I got on the plane put the mask on.

434
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: It had been a year and a half since I

435
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: took a flight anywhere. It had been so long that

436
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: flying was actually kind of a thrill again. As I

437
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: looked out the window across the world, I thought about

438
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: Richard Branson and what is possibly motivating him to take

439
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: the risk of flying to space this weekend. Well, the

440
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: edge of Space Virgin Galactic makes its next big test

441
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: flights Sunday. Branson will be on board. As you've been hearing,

442
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: this is a long goal for him, something he talked

443
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: about with Bloomberg's Ashley Vance several years ago. It is

444
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: rocket stance. Uh, it is really difficult. We're just reinventing

445
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: the wheel, completely reinventing the technology. So um, it's been tough.

446
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: But we now have rockets that we know will take

447
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: us to space. You know, we feel confident that we're

448
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: finally very very close to being there, and ahead of

449
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: our coverage on Sunday, we are joined by none other

450
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: than Bloomberg Business Weeks Ashley Vance, along with the panel

451
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Politics contributors Geanie she and Zano when Rick Davis

452
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: hanging out with us on a Friday. Welcome to all

453
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: of you. Ashley, thanks for coming in. You spent some

454
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: time with Branson. Obviously you've been to Spaceport America. What

455
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: is driving him to do this? Virgin Galactic has already

456
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: had a fatal accident. This is this is not just

457
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: fun in games. Yeah, no, I mean that's an important point. Um.

458
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: You know, Richards has been at this a long time.

459
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think part of it is the is

460
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: the showman in him, and it is just wanted to

461
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: have this unique experience. It's always been something of adventure. Um.

462
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: You know that that clip that you played points to

463
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: how hard that is. I think that was around and

464
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: he thought, you know, he thought basically, they're going to

465
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: launch within a few months, and that was after already

466
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: years of delays. So, um, you've been after this for

467
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: a long time, so we must wanted that this isn't

468
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: a real industry though, right, This is this is going

469
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: to usher in and we can have fun with the

470
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: bezos versus Brandson stuff that it's going to be a

471
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: couple of companies doing this, but this will officially usher

472
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: in space tourism as a real thing. People can pay money,

473
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: whether it's two hundred and fifty dollars or more, as

474
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: they say, to actually buy a ticket on this thing. Yeah,

475
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,479
Speaker 1: you know, it looks like I mean, we used to

476
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: have people might sort of forget I mean, for a

477
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: period of years there we had very rich people that

478
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: could buy trips to the International Space Station and and

479
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: those were you know, much longer at trips than doing

480
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: what these guy are offering today. But this is the

481
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: first time we've seen real private now public companies. But

482
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: you know, Proper Company has gone up there full time

483
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: and we have these two launches happening in about a

484
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: week of each other, and so this thing, it is

485
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: kicking off in honest now, you know, God willing that

486
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: things go. Well. Well, you're here, Ashley. I have to

487
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: ask you, do you call him Richard when you talk

488
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: to him Richard? I do. He's been surprisingly casual, pretty

489
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,479
Speaker 1: better active. Well, I'm glad that you could be your

490
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: your are you part of our coverage on Sunday? You've

491
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time out there, and I know

492
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: we've got a big show coming. Yeah, I will be Yeah, excellent.

493
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: It starts Sunday morning at nine. Ashley Vance, thanks for

494
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: being here. We'll be listening and watching. Genie and Rick

495
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: are with us. Happy Friday, guys. I'm just would you

496
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: pay any money, never mind you or in fifty dollars

497
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: to put your life on the line to get a

498
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, a twenty minute shot out of the earth brick?

499
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: You know, there have been mornings when I've ooken up

500
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: and thought I was waitless. So I'm not going to

501
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: spend any extra money doing that. Well, Eugenie, Um, I

502
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't as I'm a bit scared of heights. But

503
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: I have to say I'm incredibly jealous of Ashley for

504
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: being able to be out there. I would like to

505
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: be on the ground and witness it, not necessarily up there.

506
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: Plus I can't afford it at this point. Joe, Well,

507
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about the business side of this,

508
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: because it's a big one. Uh. SpaceX has been doing

509
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: this for a long time before. If everyone knew Elon

510
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: Musk as the Tesla guy, they were putting rockets and

511
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: supporting the shuttle mission, uh from Cape Canaveral for a

512
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: very long time. Now this is a whole new era

513
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: of private space exploration and in fact tourism. And Rick Davis,

514
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: when you think about the regulatory side of this, it's

515
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: one thing. But the business side, the potential profits could

516
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: be huge. Yeah, the profits could be huge. And don't

517
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: forget that the commercial application. I mean, it's one thing

518
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: to take folks up to the space station, another thing

519
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: to you know, do tourism. But one of the things

520
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: SpaceX has really done with its Dragon capsule capsule as

521
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: turned space into accessible activity for you know, people who

522
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 1: want to put up lower Earth orbit satellites, changing communication,

523
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: changing weather prediction. Uh, just amazing enhancements in the use

524
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: of space in everyday life. And Jennie, we're not paying

525
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: the Russians to do it like we were for many years. Well,

526
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: that's right, And of course we we know that they

527
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: are trying to vie with Tom Cruise and SpaceX to

528
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: get their actress up into space to film for the

529
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: first time in October. See who wins that race. But

530
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: but the business side of this is really critical because

531
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: some of the estimates are a market value of about

532
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: three billion dollars by thirty and even just the suborbital

533
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: sort of as you look at that versus the orbital tourism,

534
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: they're talking about it two point a billion dollar value

535
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: and the next you know, less than ten years. So

536
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: this is potentially very big money. But of course you're

537
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: also talking an incredibly enormous risk, and of course nobody

538
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: knows that better than than Virgin Atlantic. So think of

539
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: how much is on the line here then, Rick Davis

540
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: Genie set that up pretty well. Uh, you're talking about

541
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: the commercial applications here that are frankly limitless. If one

542
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: of these billionaires though we got Branson on Sunday and

543
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos will go up with Blue Origin to actual

544
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: space on July. Both of these are going to happen

545
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: in the next couple of weeks. Should something go wrong

546
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: with either of them, does that put this whole idea

547
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: in jeopardy? For sure. I have a lot of practical experience.

548
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: In in six I was the White House coordinator for

549
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: the Domestic Policy Council when UH the Challenger UH broke

550
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: apart and and we had to build an entire commission

551
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: around the understanding of what are the limits to space?

552
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: What are we doing with the Shuttle program? And it

553
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: shut everything down for almost three years, uh, in order

554
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,720
Speaker 1: to determine, you know, what is the best risk going forward.

555
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: And so we hope everything goes smoothly. Nobody loves a

556
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: space launch more than Rick Davis does, but um, we

557
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: have to be careful because there are a lot of

558
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: risks associated with space still. Our producer Christine through a

559
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 1: story in front of me from the New York Times today, Jeanie,

560
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it, but brokers say neither of them,

561
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: neither Bezos nor Branson have bought insurance coverage in case

562
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: of an accident. Is this just one big ego trip

563
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 1: with these two guys? You know it? I saw that.

564
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: It is really stunning. Um, the craft seem to be uh,

565
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: you know, they they are going to be okay should

566
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: anything happen, But but not these gentlemen. You know. I

567
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: think Rick makes Ricks makes a really good point looking

568
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: back at six. You know, we all remember that, and

569
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: what did NASA do after that? They made very clear,

570
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: sort of strict guidelines as to who could go up

571
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 1: and of course you weren't going to have another teacher

572
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: up there, so should something happen. This could slow this

573
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: you know, obviously the loss of human life being most important,

574
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 1: but this could also slow this race way down. So

575
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: the risks are enormous, but you see a lot of

576
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 1: very very wealthy people interested in pursuing this. I think

577
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: one of the data points I saw was, you know,

578
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 1: over a certain amount of income, you've got almost people

579
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: interested in paying their way to get up there, even

580
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: just for several seconds. I think Branson told Ashley in

581
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: that same interview that that we took that that soundcut

582
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: from that about half the people watching listening to Bloomberg

583
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 1: want to pay to go to space. Look that this

584
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: is this is the crowd here. But talk to me

585
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: about the Carmen line, Rick Davis, I don't want to

586
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: get everybody upset, but it is true. Richard Branson's technically

587
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: not going to space, and Jeff Bezos is. Yeah, there's

588
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: a little bit of trash talk going on this week

589
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: about that. Um, you know, the design of of Bezos'

590
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: program had always been, you know, to go sixty miles

591
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: up you know, uh, you know, beyond the Carmen line.

592
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: And in this case, the Branson, Sir Richard Branson's plane

593
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: is is Bezos calls it, Um, we'll we'll only go

594
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: fifty five miles up and not break that plane. So um,

595
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: I think there's a it's the competition is steep right now.

596
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: And if I'm Richard Branson, I'm I've got my engineers

597
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: in there going it's five miles, it's five miles. Why

598
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: can't I get there? And of course, you know, Virgin

599
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: Galactic Genie is saying, yeah, but we've got a better

600
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: view of the earth. Look how big our windows are,

601
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: and your pictures will be better. Again, doesn't this speak

602
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: to the ego battle going on here? It does? And

603
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: of course they're saying, Jeff Bezos, he'll only be up

604
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: there about four minutes, so not a big deal after all,

605
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: you know. But yeah, I mean there is a big

606
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: attle going on here. And I think Richard Branson has

607
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: made the case that he wants Virgin Atlantic to make

608
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: commercial space flight, you know, to democratize that essentially, to

609
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: make it something that is common. But I think as

610
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: we battle COVID and all the things we have here

611
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: on the ground and at home, there are big ethical

612
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: questions to be raised to all of these people about

613
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: is the money better spent in other ways, and that's something.

614
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: Of course, these are people who have all given a

615
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: lot of money to the environment and other things, but

616
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: those are big questions they have to address. Why do

617
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: this now? All great points from Genie she and s

618
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 1: no and Rick Davis, Bloomberg Politics contributors. I love spending

619
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: every Friday with you guys, Well every day we can

620
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: do this, have a great weekend. It all reminds me

621
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: of the quote I woke up to this morning on

622
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg app Dr Peter Ferdinand Drucker. The only thing

623
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: we know about the future is that it's going to

624
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: be different. Can we at least agree on that? Keep

625
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: your eyes to the skies. I'll be off next week.

626
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: Meets you back here of the following Monday for the

627
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: best politics show on the radio, Bloomberg Sound on h