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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 3: I think he really, really, really was driven by the

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Speaker 3: need to restore the dignity of first just Theresa, but

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Speaker 3: then increasingly all of these women, to the point where

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Speaker 3: he's now become the lead expert in Quebec on. If

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Speaker 3: you want to know whether a woman is missing and murdered,

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Speaker 3: you'd call John Alar.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the

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Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on

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Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for

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Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some

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Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all

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Speaker 1: excellent writers. They've had so many great true crime stories,

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Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you those stories with

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Speaker 1: details that have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents

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Speaker 1: Wicked Words is about the choices that writers.

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Speaker 2: Make, good and bad.

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Speaker 1: It's a deep dive into the stories behind the stories.

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Speaker 1: Author Patricia Pearson wrote Wish You Were Here, which is

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Speaker 1: part investigative journalism and part memoir because she wrote this

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Speaker 1: book with her high school boyfriend forty years after they

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Speaker 1: broke up. In nineteen seventy eight, Teresa Allure went missing

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Speaker 1: in Quebec, Canada, and decades later, her brother John enlisted

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Speaker 1: the help of Pearson to discover who killed her and

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Speaker 1: if her murderer was a serial killer. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: how you came to this book, because this is a

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Speaker 1: very personal book for you.

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Speaker 3: So where we start is in the nineteen seventies, with

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Speaker 3: me with a high school boyfriend and me entering into

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Speaker 3: the realm of his sort of shattered family a year

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Speaker 3: after his sister went missing for six months and then

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Speaker 3: was found dead in a river. And I had a

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Speaker 3: three year relationship with him and had a complete insussian

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Speaker 3: teenage lack of empathy and understanding for what his family

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Speaker 3: was going through. I sort of understood the facts, but

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Speaker 3: the facts weren't that clear. It seemed that she perhaps

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Speaker 3: had died of a drug overdose. John and I wound

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Speaker 3: up going our separate ways.

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Speaker 2: But then you reconnected decades later.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So this was in the year two thousand, so

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Speaker 3: a lot of time had gone by, and in the meantime,

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Speaker 3: by pure coincidence, I had been doing a lot of

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Speaker 3: crime journalism. I had written a book about exploring violent women,

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Speaker 3: and I had left behind that field because it was

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Speaker 3: so toxic. After covering a serial killer trial in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety three, I had, for lack of a better phrase,

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Speaker 3: a sort of nervous breakdown from exposing myself to the

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Speaker 3: ambience of tragedy and violence. So I didn't want to

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Speaker 3: do anything to do with crime at that point. And

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Speaker 3: John phone me from North Carolina and he said, we

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Speaker 3: hadn't talked in a long time, and he said, you know,

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Speaker 3: when you think back to when Teresa died, you know,

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Speaker 3: she was found in her bronze panties, she had no

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Speaker 3: clothes on, her clothes were not nearby. She was face

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Speaker 3: down in a creek in April. Do you think that

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Speaker 3: was a drug overdose? I mean, Teresa had absolutely no

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Speaker 3: history of using drugs beyond you know, the usual hash whatever.

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Speaker 3: And now that I was a crime journalist, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, that just kind of sounds like a sex murder, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Being able to look back as an adult with all

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Speaker 1: this experience, you view it differently. Yeah, now let's pause there,

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Speaker 1: because now I want to go back and find out

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Speaker 1: about Teresa and the family, because the way that this

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Speaker 1: all unravels I find so interesting because it's not just

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Speaker 1: about Teresa, it's about other.

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Speaker 2: Young women in that area. Mhmm.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the Allure family, especially of course about Teresa,

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Speaker 1: and I'd love to know what the family with a

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Speaker 1: brother sister dynamic was between the two of them.

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Speaker 3: Right. So, Teresa was the oldest of three children in

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Speaker 3: a typical middle class, white Anglophone English speaking family in Montreal, Quebec.

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Speaker 3: There's a pronounced and important divide in Canada between the

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Speaker 3: Francophones and Anglophones in terms of their interaction with each other,

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Speaker 3: particularly in the seventies. So the police are all French.

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Speaker 3: That becomes important. They don't care about the English. Teresa

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Speaker 3: was an extremely smart, highly energized, very athletic, mountain biking, hitchhiking,

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Speaker 3: adventurous young woman, and she had gone to her first

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Speaker 3: year at college. So we're talking about the eastern townships,

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Speaker 3: this kind of bucolic, rolling, hilled landscape where you have

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Speaker 3: people making artisanal cheese and beautiful bnbs, and this lovely

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Speaker 3: gabled college that she went to. John and Andre were

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Speaker 3: her two younger brothers, who absolutely worshiped her. She was

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Speaker 3: at college for a couple of months before she disappeared,

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Speaker 3: doing very well, lots of friends. She had a boyfriend

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Speaker 3: who's actually now on the starring on the show The Vikings.

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Speaker 3: That show yep, and he had gone out. He was

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Speaker 3: no longer there, he was working out in the West

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Speaker 3: at the time, but anyway, so she had a very settled,

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Speaker 3: typical college entry life going on. And at this point

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Speaker 3: John and his parents had moved away with the job

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Speaker 3: posting of his father, so they were no longer in Quebec.

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Speaker 3: They were in a different part of Canada when she disappeared,

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Speaker 3: and the immediate reaction of the college administration and of

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Speaker 3: the local police was to provide the parents with all

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Speaker 3: kinds of demonizing explanations. So if she's disappeared, it must

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Speaker 3: be because she's lesbian, it must be because she's joined

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Speaker 3: a cult. So all of the classic sort of anti

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Speaker 3: female tropes you could throw, they threw at this family,

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Speaker 3: as opposed to say doing a search of the fields

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Speaker 3: or putting out flyers or it was like an extraordinary

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Speaker 3: rebuke of these parents and these kids, these boys who

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Speaker 3: were just terrified because their sister had disappeared, and that

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Speaker 3: was an injury that lasted a lifetime for Teresa's parents.

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Speaker 3: The cruelty of the college protecting its reputation, and the

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Speaker 3: Francophone small town very corrupt, very misogynistic police not wanting

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Speaker 3: to have to investigate.

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Speaker 1: And tell me about the tension that you're talking about

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Speaker 1: between French and English.

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Speaker 2: How does that work? Where does that come from?

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Speaker 3: Oh god, it's a really long story, Loue.

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Speaker 2: Can you shorthand it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's Quebec has always wanted to not

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Speaker 3: so much now, but for a long time it wanted

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Speaker 3: to separate from Canada. The French national identity was very

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Speaker 3: very strong. Separatist movement was very very strong. You have

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Speaker 3: a very deep affiliation with France and a very deep

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Speaker 3: Catholic tradition. Whereas the rest of Canada is mostly like

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Speaker 3: Protestant and tea and sandwiches, Quebec is arguably, i think

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Speaker 3: still probably the most patriarchal part of this country. And

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Speaker 3: also the other thing is that it was the Anglophones

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Speaker 3: who were the ones who were the most educated in Quebec.

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Speaker 3: So you have these working class French cops and you

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Speaker 3: have this educated English family coming in and saying, my

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Speaker 3: privileged daughter is missing, and they were not interested. They're

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Speaker 3: more interested in dealing with the biker gangs and with

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Speaker 3: their own double dealing.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: There were a lot of women going missing in this

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Speaker 3: time in Quebec, a lot like go go dancers would

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Speaker 3: be found in the woods and the police would say, oh,

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Speaker 3: that must be a double suicide. They must have committed

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Speaker 3: suicide together. You would have the most incredible write offs

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Speaker 3: of young women and girls going missing and showing up dead,

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Speaker 3: and Teresa became essentially one of them. And because she

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Speaker 3: was English, there was no coverage of her disappearance in

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Speaker 3: the largely Francophone community around her. They didn't know about her,

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Speaker 3: they couldn't provide tips about where she might have gone.

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Speaker 3: So you had these two solitudes in the midst of

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Speaker 3: this whole thing going on.

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Speaker 1: What does her family immediately do they call the police,

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Speaker 1: do they pressure the police? What are their options once

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Speaker 1: she has gone missing for what twenty four hours?

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Speaker 3: They didn't know for twenty four hours, So actually they

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Speaker 3: didn't even know that she was missing.

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Speaker 2: For a week because she was at school.

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Speaker 3: Yeah she was at school, and nobody told them no

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Speaker 3: roommates or yeah, yeah she had a roommate. She was

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Speaker 3: in a dorm. Nobody told the parents.

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Speaker 2: How is I don't understand that. How is that possible?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, that's part of the legacy of that

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Speaker 3: particular college that they were running dorms with very young

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Speaker 3: students with extremely limited supervision by adults, and that was

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Speaker 3: part of why they were so defensive. And the dorm

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Speaker 3: that Teresa was in was fifteen miles away from the

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Speaker 3: main campus, and the only option for the young women

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Speaker 3: to get back to their dorms after class was if

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Speaker 3: they missed the last bus at six was to hitchhike.

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Speaker 3: And they're hitchhiking through a boreal forest, right like, they're

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Speaker 3: hitchhiking through twin peaks kind of geography. And that's what

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Speaker 3: happened with her. The last time she was seen was

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Speaker 3: on the main campus. And then we think she hitchhiked.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so she goes missing and the parents and the

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Speaker 1: family don't hear about this for a week. Then what happened?

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Speaker 1: They go to the college. Do they search themselves?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So they jump in the car, they drive all

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Speaker 3: the way twelve to fourteen hour drive, arrive in this

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Speaker 3: small town, book themselves into a motel and start shaking

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Speaker 3: the trees and start trying to get the administration involved,

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Speaker 3: start trying to get the cops involved, and with some

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Speaker 3: limited success and a lot of indifference, and they stayed

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Speaker 3: there for as long as they could. They hired a

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Speaker 3: private investigator. They were really on their own, like it

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Speaker 3: was a remarkable sort of abandonment, so that they were

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Speaker 3: going down the streets themselves, knocking on doors talking to

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Speaker 3: French families, have you seen my daughter? They had to

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Speaker 3: come up with their own flyer, but nothing, nothing happened,

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Speaker 3: And finally one of the investigators with the Quebec police

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Speaker 3: said to them before Christmas, she'll show up someday. Just

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Speaker 3: get back to your life. Just you got to move on.

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Speaker 3: Just get back to your life. Go home.

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Speaker 1: And no media or anything like that in that area.

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming that they can leverage.

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Speaker 3: No, they couldn't. They couldn't leverage any of the Francophone media.

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Speaker 3: And also because this was side of Montreal, so the

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Speaker 3: people in the main newspapers in Quebeca in Montreal, and

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Speaker 3: this was from their point of view, a regional disappearance.

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Speaker 3: They didn't care either, so there was very little for

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Speaker 3: them to leverage, so they had to go back. They

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Speaker 3: had to go back home, and they had to just

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Speaker 3: wait and hope and pray, and finally it was Easter

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Speaker 3: weekend and they were having their Easter dinner and they

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Speaker 3: got a call from the corner in Montreal who said,

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Speaker 3: we think we found your daughter's body and we need

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Speaker 3: you to come and identify it on Easter Sunday.

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Speaker 2: Tell me how old John and Andre are at the time.

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Speaker 3: So John was fourteen and Andre would have been very close

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Speaker 3: in age to Teresa.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but she was the eldest.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she was the eldest. Andrea was right behind her,

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Speaker 3: and then John.

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Speaker 1: So this must have been just heartbreaking for her parents

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Speaker 1: to go there Easter Sunday and they go and identify

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Speaker 1: the body.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, her father had to go. And John remembers walking

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Speaker 3: down the sort of green painted corridors of the corner's

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Speaker 3: office in Montreal, you know, with that neon lighting, and

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Speaker 3: his father going in behind closed doors and coming out

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Speaker 3: and never looking the same again, and he couldn't identify her.

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Speaker 3: She was so decomposed that they had to submit her

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Speaker 3: teeth for DNA.

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Speaker 2: And she was found how much six months later?

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Speaker 3: Yeah it was. It was six months yeah.

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Speaker 1: Six months later, Okay, And it snowed and she was

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Speaker 1: buried under the snow and all of that.

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Speaker 2: I presume that's right.

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Speaker 3: And she was found in the spring runoff by a

222
00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:24,680
Speaker 3: muskrat trapper.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what they were able to find out just

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Speaker 1: from an autopsy about what happened to her.

225
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Speaker 3: So the autopsy, which was shared between the coroner and

226
00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,679
Speaker 3: the Quebec investigators but never relayed to the family for decades,

227
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,360
Speaker 3: suggested that she had been strangled. They ran toxicology and

228
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Speaker 3: they found no evidence of drugs in her system. Okay,

229
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Speaker 3: they told the family neither of those things. Why to

230
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,079
Speaker 3: this day John and I were trying to figure out

231
00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,880
Speaker 3: the mystery of this whole period of time. They didn't

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Speaker 3: want to bother investigating. Essentially, at that point was a

233
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,960
Speaker 3: huge kidnapping trial going on where these particular investigators were testifying.

234
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,520
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, and that was their focus. Their focus was

235
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Speaker 3: on money and big important people who had been kidnapped

236
00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,120
Speaker 3: in crime related to property. They weren't interested in young

237
00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,160
Speaker 3: women disappearing. That was who cared. So they turned around

238
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,280
Speaker 3: and they told the family that as far as they

239
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,000
Speaker 3: were concerned, it was unclear what had happened to her,

240
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 3: but she probably had died of a drug overdose, and

241
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,800
Speaker 3: her friends had panicked at finding her dead and driven

242
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,280
Speaker 3: her all the way from the college to a creek

243
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,440
Speaker 3: and dumped her in and taken off her clothes and

244
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,480
Speaker 3: hidden them away, and that was the end of that.

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00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,199
Speaker 1: Did her parents ever get a chance to speak to

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00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,960
Speaker 1: her roommate or anyone who knew her at the college

247
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,559
Speaker 1: to get a little bit more real information from them.

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Speaker 3: Well, the interesting thing about this was because of the

249
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,120
Speaker 3: way the police framed it as the friends panicking and

250
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,320
Speaker 3: dumping the body, that created a rift between the parents

251
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,319
Speaker 3: and the friends, okay, and so in fact, it served

252
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,400
Speaker 3: to isolate the witnesses, so that Marilyn Alre, the mother,

253
00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,600
Speaker 3: actually didn't even want these friends to come to Teresa's funeral.

254
00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 3: She was so heartbroken and betrayed by her sense that

255
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,240
Speaker 3: they would ever do this to her daughter. They, on

256
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,199
Speaker 3: the other hand, were convinced that Teresa had been sexually murdered,

257
00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,560
Speaker 3: but they had no voice.

258
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Speaker 1: Right they had set up such a bad dynamic between

259
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,960
Speaker 1: the two. Oh that's so bad, did you say they

260
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,560
Speaker 1: hired investigators or no private investigators.

261
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,040
Speaker 3: They did hire a private investigator, but he didn't He

262
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,040
Speaker 3: kind of went around in circles, so he never found

263
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,520
Speaker 3: anything terribly useful. I can't remember the sequence, but at

264
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,040
Speaker 3: some point they discovered that Teresa's wallet was showing up

265
00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,080
Speaker 3: in a ditch on the side of the road kind

266
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,400
Speaker 3: of halfway between the city of Sherbrooke and her dorm,

267
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,400
Speaker 3: in the complete opposite direction from where her body was found.

268
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,560
Speaker 3: Her wallet had been tossed out of the window of

269
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,559
Speaker 3: a car. Okay, And when the allures pointed this out

270
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,280
Speaker 3: to the police, they were like, well, wild animals must

271
00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:57,959
Speaker 3: have carried it.

272
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Speaker 1: There, so let's move on to this is case closed

273
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,079
Speaker 1: for the police. They have zero interest in moving forward.

274
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:11,120
Speaker 1: Teresa's buried. Yeah, and you meet John, her brother, who

275
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,360
Speaker 1: is I'm assuming now fifteen when you all meet, Is

276
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:13,880
Speaker 1: that about right?

277
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:14,280
Speaker 2: Yeah?

278
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,000
Speaker 3: That's right? Yeah?

279
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:16,920
Speaker 2: And how are you fifteen? Also? Yeah?

280
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 1: So you all meet in school? Does everyone at the

281
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,440
Speaker 1: school has to know about this? Do all of his

282
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:22,440
Speaker 1: friends know about this?

283
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 2: Yes?

284
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,800
Speaker 3: They did, but everyone was sort of just handed this

285
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 3: narrative crafted by the Quebec police, so it was like, oh,

286
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,240
Speaker 3: John had an older sister who tragically died of a drug.

287
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,760
Speaker 1: Overdose, and then you started dating him in high school

288
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:36,680
Speaker 1: for three years.

289
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,560
Speaker 2: And what did he say?

290
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,880
Speaker 1: He is just living with the fact that his sister

291
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 1: was a drug addict who overdosed and then was dumped

292
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:44,800
Speaker 1: in a field somewhere.

293
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:45,280
Speaker 2: Is that right?

294
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,479
Speaker 3: Yeah? And I think at that age, and I've subsequently

295
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 3: witnessed this with my nephews. When my sister died, you're

296
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,320
Speaker 3: not in a position to really cognitively process that kind

297
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,000
Speaker 3: of tragedy, but it has an impact on behavior rather

298
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,080
Speaker 3: than right, do you know what I mean? So when

299
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,080
Speaker 3: I was with John, the two of us would go

300
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,640
Speaker 3: on pretty antisocial larks. We would ride without tickets on

301
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,120
Speaker 3: trains and we would break into a cottage and steal

302
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,920
Speaker 3: their booze. And he took me to that probably the

303
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 3: most marginally criminal edge I've ever been in my life.

304
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,200
Speaker 3: And when I look back, I realized that that wasn't

305
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 3: just inherently John, it was how he was acting out

306
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,920
Speaker 3: his sense of incredible betrayal by the world.

307
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,640
Speaker 1: Wow, so you all break up for the reasons why

308
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,360
Speaker 1: teenagers breakup kind of grow apart.

309
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,680
Speaker 3: No, we didn't grow apart. I dumped him, and he

310
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,200
Speaker 3: was devastated and I didn't get it, and he said,

311
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 3: I don't want to lose you like YA lost my sister.

312
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,920
Speaker 3: Oh wow, Yeah, So that was an injury I did

313
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:44,760
Speaker 3: to him that I later apologized for.

314
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,200
Speaker 2: What's the next big event in John's world?

315
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 3: So John wanted to get as far away as he could,

316
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 3: and so he left Canada and he moved to Los Angeles,

317
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 3: and he kept finding himself drawn to figures in the

318
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,280
Speaker 3: world of crime writing. I friended James Elroy, who wrote

319
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,560
Speaker 3: My Dark Places, went to his book launch. I wound

320
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,960
Speaker 3: up going to Los Angeles once and I was researching

321
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 3: my book on violent women, and John and I drove

322
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 3: around the city going to the body dump sites of

323
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,160
Speaker 3: these female serial killers, you know, so iron like we

324
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,920
Speaker 3: were playing out this thing that would later. It was

325
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,520
Speaker 3: like pre configuring where we were going to be. But

326
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,720
Speaker 3: at that time we didn't realize that there had been

327
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,680
Speaker 3: this crime. And yet our partnership, our collaboration, even in

328
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 3: the early nineties as ex girlfriend and boyfriend, was wholly

329
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,240
Speaker 3: focused on the darkness and the criminality of the world.

330
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,640
Speaker 3: Then I completely lost touch with him for a while.

331
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,280
Speaker 3: I became parent, he became a parent. So it wasn't

332
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,600
Speaker 3: until he had moved with his wife to North Carolina.

333
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,840
Speaker 3: They bought a house in Chapel Hill. He had very

334
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 3: young kids at that point, and that was when the

335
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:53,800
Speaker 3: sheriff came knocking on the door.

336
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,240
Speaker 2: So there's a woman buried in his basement, is that right?

337
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:57,840
Speaker 4: Yeah?

338
00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,480
Speaker 3: So it turned out that the man who lived in

339
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,360
Speaker 3: the house prior to John buying it, it was like a

340
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,880
Speaker 3: fixer upper that he bought, had murdered this woman and

341
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,440
Speaker 3: had stashed the body under the house in a crawl space.

342
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,320
Speaker 3: But before he handed the keys to the house over

343
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,480
Speaker 3: to John, he'd actually removed the body. So it wasn't

344
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,639
Speaker 3: they didn't find it there. They found traces of it,

345
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,200
Speaker 3: the sniffer dogs did, but then it had subsequently been

346
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,280
Speaker 3: hidden somewhere else. But yeah, that was the catalyst for

347
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 3: John to get back in touch with me because it

348
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,720
Speaker 3: was a cold case in North Carolina, and yet the

349
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,439
Speaker 3: police were so doggedly investigating. Oh gosh, And that's what

350
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,000
Speaker 3: made him think, do you know anything about that case.

351
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,680
Speaker 3: The woman's name was Deborah Key. She was abducted by

352
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,360
Speaker 3: the guy who killed her from a bar, and that bar.

353
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,399
Speaker 3: By the time John and his wife were fixing up.

354
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,719
Speaker 3: Their house had become the store that John's wife was

355
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,479
Speaker 3: fixing up. Wow, so they managed to acquire both her

356
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,240
Speaker 3: abduction point and her burial point when they moved north.

357
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,159
Speaker 1: To that poor guy, that really must have been traumatized

358
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:02,960
Speaker 1: because she was nineteen.

359
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 2: Also.

360
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,000
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, so he gets back in touch with you,

361
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,640
Speaker 1: what does he say, this is now a case that

362
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,680
Speaker 1: is what thirty something years old, the case of his sister, Yeah.

363
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,000
Speaker 3: Almost thirty years old. And he wanted my advice at first,

364
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,120
Speaker 3: and I didn't want to get pulled back into crime journalism. Yeah,

365
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 3: I associated that with a lot of bad things in

366
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,720
Speaker 3: my life. But at the time I was working for

367
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,560
Speaker 3: a daily newspaper in Toronto, so they had the resources.

368
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,800
Speaker 3: And once we heard from Detective Kim Rossmo in Texas

369
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,119
Speaker 3: that he thought this probably was a sexual homicide, the

370
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,679
Speaker 3: newspaper gave me the go ahead to help John investigate

371
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,960
Speaker 3: and see what we could find out about what might

372
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,240
Speaker 3: have happened. And that's when we began a five month investigation.

373
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 1: So I'll ask you, I don't know if this is

374
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,960
Speaker 1: the right point to ask about forensics.

375
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,040
Speaker 2: Was anything saved, was anything taken?

376
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:53,920
Speaker 4: Yes?

377
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,560
Speaker 3: Our investigation was quite radically hampered by the fact that

378
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,320
Speaker 3: the cops had thrown everything out, her panties, her earrings,

379
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 3: anything that might have had DNA on it they had tossed.

380
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,919
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, I mean is that legal?

381
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 1: I didn't think you could do that. I guess if

382
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,400
Speaker 1: they're not opening up a criminal investigation.

383
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 3: It's not legal. And it was happening in all of

384
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,960
Speaker 3: these cases in Quebec. So the other cases that we

385
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 3: began to stumble across as we were looking into what

386
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,680
Speaker 3: happened to Teresa, we find, oh, wait a minute, nine

387
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,399
Speaker 3: months earlier, this other woman also is found dead in

388
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,679
Speaker 3: the forest nearby, naked and strangled. And then it's like,

389
00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 3: oh wait a minute. Half a year after that, this

390
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 3: younger woman is found face down in a creek sixteen

391
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,639
Speaker 3: kilometers south of where Teresa was found. Ultimately, all of

392
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 3: those cases had evidence tossed, so you couldn't come at

393
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 3: it from the angle of retroactive forensics.

394
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 2: Okay, where do we start.

395
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 1: You all visit the University of Texas at Austin, which

396
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 1: incidentally is where I teach. Also, so you visit this professor.

397
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 1: Tell me the conversation again with the professor. You say,

398
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,920
Speaker 1: this is what happened. She's found in a bronze panties.

399
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: She was not a drug user. Yeah, when do we

400
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 1: find out about toxicology? When is all these lie revealed?

401
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 3: Finally, John became a master of filing freedom of information

402
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,240
Speaker 3: requests good and he started He used all kinds of

403
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 3: angles to come at this, and he found all kinds

404
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 3: of ways to get this information coughed up over the

405
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 3: years by the police. So I can't remember exactly when

406
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 3: he found out about the toxicology. But what happened with

407
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 3: Kim Rossmo was that he was a specialist and a

408
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 3: groundbreaking specialist in an area of criminal investigation called geographic profiling.

409
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 3: So when I went to him and I said, Kim,

410
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 3: you know, we've got the situation, but we've also discovered

411
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 3: that there's these other missing and murdered women in this

412
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 3: very small, very sparsely populated, very bucolic area. So statistically,

413
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 3: sexual homicide comprises about four percent of all cases of homicide.

414
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 3: So if you're in an area of that sparse of

415
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 3: population that only has a very small percentage of overall

416
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 3: homicides in a year, you know, the homicide rate in

417
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,680
Speaker 3: Canada in general would be somewhat lower than the States

418
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 3: because of our gun laws. Finding three women with unsolved

419
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 3: murders within twenty miles of each other over the course

420
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 3: of eighteen months defies the statistical probabilities, right, Yeah, So

421
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 3: Kim said, Okay, why don't we get at this through

422
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 3: geographic profiling. So let's look at where these women are

423
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 3: on a map, and where were they last seen and

424
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 3: where were they found. And using that kind of triangulation,

425
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 3: he had come up with a formula for where the

426
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 3: suspect was likeliest to have lived. In other words, we

427
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 3: had to get at what happened at Teresa less through

428
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 3: the usual root of DNA or forensics, and at the

429
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 3: root of who the culprit might have been.

430
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,199
Speaker 1: So he is making some assumptions. He's assuming that this

431
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: is a killer who is staying within a certain amount

432
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 1: of parameters that he set for himself. So he's assuming

433
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: this is not a truck driver who is just placing

434
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,880
Speaker 1: people in certain areas and then taking off. He feels

435
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 1: strongly that this is someone who wants these women here

436
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: for a particular reason.

437
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 2: Is that right or is it more subconscious?

438
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 3: No, that's right, But it's based on the idea of

439
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 3: routine activities theory. So basically the postulation of that criminology

440
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 3: is that assailants, whether they are rapists or robbers or murderers,

441
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 3: will tend to operate along their own routine pathways. So

442
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 3: if somebody is abducted from a seven to eleven or whatever,

443
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 3: then it's quite likely that that's a convenience store that

444
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 3: that assailant has been passed like a hundred times because

445
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 3: they're operating within a zone of comfort for themselves. So

446
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 3: like my lifelong terror of being alone at my cottage

447
00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 3: turns out to be stupid, because unless there's some on

448
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 3: the lake where my cottage is whose routine activity is

449
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 3: to go past that cottage, there isn't going to be

450
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 3: an assailant who feels comfortable enough in committing their crime there,

451
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 3: particularly in cases where you've got women who've been adducted

452
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 3: and dumped, because there has to be a place where

453
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 3: the commission of the crime occurs where the assailant feels comfortable.

454
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 3: They're not going to put themselves in a position of

455
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 3: insecurity and vulnerability by going to somewhere that they are

456
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 3: totally unfamiliar with to commit a crime because they don't

457
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 3: know the factors around them. I think here where you're

458
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 3: looking at somebody who's actually going methodically out of their

459
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 3: way to dump the body. So first they're abducting, and

460
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: then they're dumping the body twenty miles away from the

461
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 3: abduction site. Then in the main for the most part,

462
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 3: seem to want to feel they know where they're going.

463
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back, because now we're saying you and

464
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 1: John and Kim believe this is the work of one person.

465
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 1: So there are three women that are within ten years

466
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: apart from each other.

467
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: Can you tell me anything about the other two about

468
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 2: is it Manne is how you her name?

469
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 3: Menel Dubey Okay?

470
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 2: And Louise?

471
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, so tell me what you know about both of

472
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: them first and clearly, Manona is not a drug user

473
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: in any way.

474
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 3: No, this is quite a tall ten year old girl

475
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 3: and she's walking home from playing in a snow bank,

476
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 3: a tobogganing or something like that, in a snow bank

477
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 3: in a working class section of the city of Sherbrook

478
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 3: that's pretty densely populated, and her little sister runs on

479
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 3: ahead of her down this one block of the street

480
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 3: because she's cold. She wants to get home faster, and

481
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 3: in that tiny, tiny narrow window of time between the

482
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 3: two girls being together on the sidewalk and one of

483
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: them turning the corner at the top of the block,

484
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 3: Manon disappears like a really small window of time.

485
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 2: Her sister must just forever live with that guilt.

486
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, this whole thing has spawned this kind of amazing

487
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 3: group of family members all over the province of Quebec

488
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 3: who have had similar dismissals from the police and have

489
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 3: started to work together in all of these ways. And

490
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 3: one of them is Mental Debate's sister. And there's no

491
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 3: sound of a car crash, there's no nobody hears anything

492
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 3: in this densely populated street block. She just vanishes into

493
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 3: thin air.

494
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: Wow, she's found before or after Teresa is found before?

495
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: Okay, because it's a child.

496
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 3: There's actually an active community response, of course, and they

497
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 3: go searching, but they don't find her immediately. I think

498
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 3: it was about a month later actually that they found her,

499
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: and she was lying face down in a creek a

500
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 3: similar distance away from the abduction site as Louise Cameron

501
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 3: was from where she was abducted and where Teresa was

502
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 3: from where she seems to have disappeared. So in all

503
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: three cases, you're talking about driving through very very dark,

504
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 3: very very unlit country roads in winter, upside roads through

505
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 3: like little forest cuts, two very isolated spots, and then

506
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 3: the body not being buried, but being laid out to

507
00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 3: be found.

508
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: Louise was the first of the three, is that right,

509
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: March of seventy seven.

510
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 3: That's right, And she disappeared from a convenience store in

511
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 3: South Sherbrooke.

512
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: What do we know about Louise?

513
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 3: So she was a young woman, she was engaged to

514
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 3: be married, she was working. I can't remember what she did.

515
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 3: I think she was a dental hygienist. And she'd gone

516
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 3: out to buy cigarettes and milk and then was going

517
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 3: to be joining up with her fiance and she just

518
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 3: never showed up. And she was found in the woods,

519
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 3: completely naked, with her clothes in a little folded pile

520
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 3: just out of reach. So she was strangled with a bootlace.

521
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: So you have with these two victims, who are not

522
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: new victims because these happened around this time period, but

523
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: new to us.

524
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 2: Louise is clearly murdered.

525
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: And manone is a girl, a young girl, a ten

526
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 1: year old who's tall, who we assume he mistook her

527
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: for a short woman or woman.

528
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, their official explanation was that she had been hit

529
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 3: by a car in this short, little narrow window of

530
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 3: time on this tiny city block, that the driver had

531
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 3: gotten out, panicked, put her body into his car, driven

532
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 3: twenty miles and dumped her in a creek rather than

533
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 3: maybe calling the police. So that was their official explanation,

534
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 3: and thus they didn't investigate. With Louise Cameron, they did

535
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: some sort of lame effort at investigation. They tried to

536
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: pin it on her fiance, but then eventually they just said, well,

537
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 3: we can't solve it. It's going to be one of

538
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 3: a long, long list of unsolved female homicides. By the way,

539
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: later John and I found several more within a slightly

540
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 3: broader range of this area of women dump. It just

541
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 3: expands into almost infinity, the number of unsolved female homicides

542
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 3: you can find.

543
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: Did Kim think that those women who you discovered subsequently

544
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,719
Speaker 1: could fit into that range with geographic profiling of this

545
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: particular guy.

546
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 3: He was skeptical, just because it was getting a little

547
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 3: bit too much further out. John and I would play

548
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: with all these different scenarios, and Kim would say, you've

549
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 3: got to stay with the evidence, don't go running off

550
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 3: with these high patheticals. But it's very tempting because they're

551
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 3: so similar. But ultimately, at the end of the day,

552
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 3: it's like I can totally see the attraction of like

553
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 3: armchair sleuthing or going to those true crime conferences and stuff,

554
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 3: because it's just such an endless intrigue. But at the

555
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 3: end of the day, you can't do it. You can't

556
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 3: pin it.

557
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: So we just don't know, right, Okay, so what year

558
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: is it when you all make the decision that your

559
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: killer for this young girl and these two women lives

560
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 1: in this tiny little town.

561
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 3: This was around two thousand and one. And what happened was,

562
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: once Kim Rossmo gave us the suggestion that we were

563
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 3: probably looking at a suspect in this particular part of

564
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 3: the city of Sherbrook. I then went to a criminologist

565
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 3: in Quebec who was a specialist in sexual homicide and

566
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 3: had done a lot of research with the offenders within

567
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 3: the prison system, and I said, do you happen to

568
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 3: have come across from twenty years ago like this would

569
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 3: be somebody who might not be incarcerated for another crime.

570
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 3: Do you happen to know of anyone who comes out

571
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 3: of this particular part of South Sherbrooke who committed sexual murders?

572
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 3: And he was like, yeah, I do, wow, And he

573
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 3: told me the name. And this guy was incarcerated for

574
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 3: an extremely violent sexual homicide of a young immigrant woman

575
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: in the city of Calgary in the early nineties, but

576
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 3: was from this part of South Sherbrooke and had been

577
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 3: living in that And we determined in fact that his parents'

578
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 3: house was within walking distance of the convenience store that

579
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,239
Speaker 3: Louis Cameron had been abducted from, so we gave that

580
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 3: information to the police. So at this point we published

581
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 3: our three part series in the national newspaper and tell

582
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 3: the police. We don't say the name in the paper,

583
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 3: but we tell the police that we think we have

584
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: a suspect. The first reaction is to finally for the

585
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 3: first time admit and acknowledge that Teresa Lore was murdered

586
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 3: and for the family that was huge, just to be

587
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: treated with dignity. And then they also for the very

588
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 3: first time established to cold case squad, so they had

589
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 3: never up to that point in Quebec even had investigators

590
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 3: assigned to or even looking at these hundreds of unsolved

591
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 3: female homicides. So they established the cold case squad and

592
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 3: they assigned somebody to work with John on his sister's case,

593
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 3: and they tried to run the DNA on the wallet,

594
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 3: her wallet that had been tossed in the ditch, but

595
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: by then so many people had handled it. They had

596
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: actually given it back to John's father in like nineteen

597
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: seventy nine and had been sitting in a drawer in

598
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: his office all this time. So they did run a

599
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 3: DNA comparison with the suspect in the prison, and it

600
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 3: came up inconclusive because there was too many people handling

601
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: the wallet. And then they went out to collaborate with

602
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: the police in Calgary about the missing and murdered women

603
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 3: out there. So they did make some effort, but they

604
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 3: were completely hampered by the lack of existing evidence.

605
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: Were there any consequences for the police who were working

606
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: these cases thirty or forty years ago. I understand many

607
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: of them might not be around. Was there any sort

608
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: of public shaming other than the apology or whatever John's

609
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: family received saying that Theresa was murdered. She wasn't an

610
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: addict who just deserved what she got, I would say

611
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: not okay. It's interesting because when this book came out,

612
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: the response in the eastern townships in particular was one

613
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: of very extreme defensiveness. They don't want to have to

614
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: visit the realities of that level of misogyny and corruption.

615
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: It makes them really uncomfortable. John's a real thorn in

616
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: the side of Quebec and he has been for years,

617
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: and he gets a lot of English language coverage and

618
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: he's won a Senate award for his victim advocacy work,

619
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: but it's very difficult to get them to take on

620
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: the shame of what's happened.

621
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: So there is someone sitting in prison. Is he's still

622
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 2: in prison right now?

623
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 3: No, he died. John wrote to him. When they couldn't

624
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 3: get anywhere with the evidence, John finally just said I'm

625
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: going to write him. I'm just going to write him

626
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 3: a letter and I'm going to ask him if he

627
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 3: killed my sister. And the guy responded. And it was

628
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 3: interesting because we then had two forensic analysts analyze his response.

629
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: What were the results of this test.

630
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: So the results of the test was that the guy

631
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 3: was lying. He was saying no because he wanted parole

632
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: right in Canada, even if you commit a murder, you

633
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 3: have what's called the faint Hope clause, which is still

634
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: dangling the possibility of parole as a way of kind

635
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 3: of trying to get people to behave themselves. And so

636
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 3: of course you're not going to admit to an additional

637
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 3: crime if you have any possibility of parole. And in fact,

638
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 3: I think he was applying for parole the following year,

639
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 3: and so he wrote this kind of weird, sort of

640
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 3: sunshiny little paragraph of a letter to John saying, hey,

641
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 3: thanks for getting in touch. Nope, sorry, I didn't kill

642
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 3: your sister. But the framing of the language was analyzed

643
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 3: as being evasive and deflective. Yeah. And then in twenty

644
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: fifteen we found out that he had died in prison,

645
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 3: and it's not clear whether he was murdered by fellow

646
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 3: inmates or whether he died of a heart attack or

647
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 3: we never got the information about that.

648
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: Is it possible to get in touch with him family

649
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: to see if they had heard anything or knew anything.

650
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: Or is that just too much for John?

651
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 3: No, we tried to go down that rabbit hole. John

652
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 3: and I were both hampered by not being sufficiently fluent

653
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 3: in French, so his family is like a working class

654
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 3: Francophone family. They wouldn't speak to the press. So when

655
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 3: this guy was arrested for the murder in Calgary that

656
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 3: he was nailed with and suspected of three others, the

657
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 3: Calgary journalist called his mother in Quebec to get her

658
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 3: comment on it, and she said he was a cute

659
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: little boy and then hung up. This family, we already

660
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 3: knew they wouldn't engage. But what we started to wonder

661
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 3: because his name was the same as the name of

662
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 3: one of the investigators for the soilitated Quebec same name.

663
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: At one point, John and I were literally actually wandering

664
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 3: through the rain in a cemetery in Sherbrooke, looking at

665
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 3: the clusters of tombstones, trying to figure out whether the

666
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 3: reason the police had been so adamantly incompetent in the

667
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 3: investigation in the first place was in fact because they

668
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 3: were protecting him. Wow, Okay, And that was a road

669
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 3: that we tried to go down, and neither of us

670
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 3: had the skill I think, like, I think you would

671
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 3: need a friends, a genealogist, but we just had that

672
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 3: feeling like it just seemed like it was. So they

673
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 3: went so far out of the way not to investigate

674
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: that we started to wonder, you know, maybe this guy

675
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 3: was connected in some way, or he was an informant.

676
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 3: Maybe he was an informant for the cops because of

677
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 3: their session with the Bite gangs, and so they just

678
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 3: didn't want to if they saw his fingerprint on a murder,

679
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 3: they just wanted to downplay it.

680
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: You were going down rabbit holes with this. You should

681
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: just go forever and ever and ever.

682
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Yeah, talking to each other on the

683
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: phone every day, you know. My husband's like, why are

684
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 3: you on the phone all the time with your ex boyfriend?

685
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: Like forty years ago? Come on.

686
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: So all of this information that you've gathered, the police

687
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: have now admitted that Teresa was murdered, that none of

688
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: us was her fault. This should have been investigated. I'm

689
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: presuming you have figured out that it is very very

690
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: likely that she was one of at least three women

691
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: who have been murdered, probably by the same person. You

692
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: think you've identified the person, even though he's died. How

693
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: was all of this information received by John's parents.

694
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: It must be difficult no matter what.

695
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 3: It was interesting because his father didn't want to talk

696
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 3: about it. He didn't want us to do this for him.

697
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,919
Speaker 3: It was a trauma he had put behind him. In fact,

698
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 3: he died within two months of our publishing, so it

699
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 3: was tough for him. His mother, who's lovely, just a

700
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 3: lovely woman. She understood that John had this demon that

701
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 3: he had, that he was just driven and driven and driven.

702
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 3: But she was almost less interested in the suspect that

703
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 3: we identified. She wanted vindication for the way she was

704
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: treated by the police and the school. Oh yeah, and

705
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: it was almost irrelevant who had done it at this point.

706
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: What was personal? It felt personal sure to her.

707
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it was people who were looking

708
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: her in the eye in lying to her. What was

709
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: her reaction or I mean, I guess we'll cause that

710
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: trade on Marilyn the mother, because what was her reaction

711
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: to the toxicology report? The disclosure of the toxicology report?

712
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: I mean, was this I knew it? Or was this

713
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: a sigh of relief?

714
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 3: Oh? This was an absolute vindication for her because she

715
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 3: had lived so long with the shame, the shame of

716
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 3: the idea that your own child, that you couldn't prevent

717
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 3: them from going down the road of drug addiction and death.

718
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 3: That she had failed as a mother. That's what she

719
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: lived with as a narrative for forty years.

720
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 1: And then for Teresa to be dismissed because of that,

721
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: because of a lie. So Andre, the middle child, what

722
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: is his reaction to all of this?

723
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 3: Andre continued to live in Montreal. He never went far

724
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 3: from the scene of this tragedy. And when he had children,

725
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 3: he started to do his own investigation about five years

726
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 3: before John and I, but he didn't know how to

727
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 3: proceed and he just kind of tried to sort of

728
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 3: poke around, but he didn't have the skill set, and

729
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 3: whatever he gathered he yielded to John and then he

730
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 3: became very interested and involved, in supportive in what we

731
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 3: were doing. But at the same time, I think all

732
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 3: of the whole family, the Allure family, they were very

733
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 3: concerned about the obsessive level of commitment that John had

734
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,479
Speaker 3: to this. It's not let sleeping dogs lie, but it's

735
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 3: like for them, as a coping mechanism, you have to

736
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 3: let go. And John would not. His coworkers would walk

737
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 3: into his office in the city of Durham, North Carolina,

738
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 3: and the whole wall would be covered with a map

739
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 3: of Quebec with little dots and string and so on,

740
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 3: identifying female dump sites.

741
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: I find it interesting because, not to simplify this, but

742
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 1: he's the youngest. He's the one who knew her the least.

743
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: Andre was closer in age. So do you think that

744
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: she just impacted him in a way?

745
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's partly in his nature. He's a

746
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 3: very intense and curious and passionate person. But I think also,

747
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 3: you know, it's funny because after my sister died, and

748
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 3: she was my older sister, I went back to John again.

749
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 3: This was another kind of point at which we cross

750
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 3: paths and found deeper understanding in each other's experience. I

751
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 3: became very driven by the need to vindicate certain things

752
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 3: in my sister's experience, and I think this was the

753
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 3: same thing with John. I think he really, really, really

754
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 3: was driven by the need to restore the dignity of

755
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: first just Theresa, but then increasingly all of these women,

756
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 3: to the point where he's now become the lead expert

757
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 3: in quebec On. If you want to know whether a

758
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 3: woman is missing and murdered, you call John Olore.

759
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: Is there a closure in a case like this? Has

760
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 1: this brought him closer to some kind of peace?

761
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 3: I know he takes issue with the idea of closure.

762
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 3: He doesn't see it as that. He sees it as

763
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 3: an ongoing spectrum of perception and orientation towards something that

764
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 3: happened to him and to his family. It was an

765
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 3: interesting experience to co author this book with him, because

766
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 3: I'm the craft one, the crafts I want to say craftsmen,

767
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 3: but I can't. So what's you say, craftswoman? Wordsmith, wordsmith? Yeah,

768
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 3: I'm the wordsmith. I'm the trained one with writing. He

769
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: had to yield the ground there, which was very hard

770
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 3: for him because this was his story and he had

771
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 3: owned this story for so long, so he had to

772
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 3: step back and let me craft it. And that was

773
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 3: interesting as a personal experience for him to realize that

774
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 3: he had to start letting go of the story. So,

775
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 3: in fact, from the beginning part of the actual writing

776
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 3: of the book to the fall of twenty twenty, I

777
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 3: did see a change come over John. And I think

778
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 3: it was because he became like lighter, lighter, if spirited.

779
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 3: And I think it was because for the first time

780
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 3: again his life seems to operate in metaphor. He literally

781
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: had to let go of some of the story.

782
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: Well, what a wonderful gift that you've given him.

783
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's the least I can do for the

784
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 3: way I treated him at the very beginning. That's the

785
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 3: closure for me. I had to give John something back.

786
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: Why because you broke up with him or did you

787
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: feel like you were dismissive in the three years you

788
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: were together of this crime.

789
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you didn't think it was a crime.

790
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not that I did anything that any other

791
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 3: fifteen year old wouldn't have done. I didn't understand tragedy

792
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 3: when I was fifteen, and I owed it to him

793
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 3: later to help him through the darkest depths of this

794
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 3: thing that I had not understood.

795
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Vivian Hoe on

796
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: murder in San Francisco's underhoused community.

797
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 4: What I found in my investigation in reporting the story

798
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 4: was that and the search to not be unhoused anymore.

799
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 4: That was what essentially led Hayes Lampley, leyla Aligut, and

800
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 4: shawna Engeld to kill two people they were looking for,

801
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 4: essentially a quick way to make some cash and a

802
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 4: quick way to escape and get to an almost promised land.

803
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available now,

804
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: including the audiobook All That Is Wicked is based on

805
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: our first season of tenfold More Wicked. You might think

806
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: you know the whole story of killer Edward Rulof's crimes,

807
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: but there's so much more. My book American Sherlock is

808
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: also available. This has been an exactly right tenfold war

809
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: Media production. The producer is Alexis Mrosi. Our mixer is

810
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: Ryo Baum. Curtis heath Is. Our composer Nick Toga did

811
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: the artwork. Ilsabrink designed the website. The executive producers are

812
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words

813
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on

814
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: Twitter at tenfold More And. If you know of a

815
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: historical crime that could use some attention, especially if it

816
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: happened in your family, email us at info at tenfoldwar

817
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: Wicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for true

818
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: crime authors for Wicked Words

819
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 3: To than