1 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff I 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: never told you. And today Samantha and I have a 3 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: bonus episode for your lovely listeners. Bonus bonus, isn't we 4 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: always are trying to give you extra cons extra um. 5 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: So one of my good friends here in the house 6 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: Stuff Works office, his name is Alex. He's a fantastic 7 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: person to work with. I like that you're doing this 8 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: like my background. I'm going to do this. This is 9 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: my new role. Okay, I oh my gosh, please follow 10 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: me around to be my high person. Any Alex is fantastic. 11 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: And Alex put me in touch with a publicist who 12 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 1: represents Dr Shelley Jane, who is and Slash was depending 13 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: on when you listen to this Um coming out with 14 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: a book called The Unspeakable Mind, and UM, since we've 15 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: been doing this whole mini series, I almost hesitate to 16 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: call a mini series. I feel like it's like a series. 17 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: It's not many. It's a medium series, medium a medium series. 18 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: I think it's a season UM around trauma. It was 19 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: perfect because in the book she delves into the science 20 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: of PTSD and how it doesn't look like what a 21 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: lot of people think it looks like and how we 22 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: can prevent it, how we can treat it, the problems, 23 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: the solutions, all that stuff. It's an excellent wheat. I 24 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: read it in a day, loved it. Um. So we 25 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: thought we we didn't interview. We were fortunate enough to 26 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: get Dr Jane on the phone and we conducted a 27 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: fantastic interview and you've probably heard pieces of it in episodes, 28 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: but we wanted to present the whole thing lightly edited, 29 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: um for our our mishaps. There weren't many. Yeah, no, 30 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: there was a fire. No, no, now there were you 31 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: know there was chicken involved. That's true. We were eating chicken. 32 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,839 Speaker 1: It wasn't like a chicken in the studio. But yeah, 33 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: we thought we'd present it to you largely unedited as 34 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: bonus content, so please enjoy. I like to start with 35 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: a basic question, which is could you tell us a 36 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: little bit about yourself and your background? Please? Sure? Absolutely so. UM, 37 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: I'm a psychiatrist by training, and about ten years ago 38 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: I um and to uh kind of postgraduate training to 39 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: become a pt special and so now, um that is 40 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 1: kind of my speciality. I'm a trauma scientists as well. 41 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: I do research um in PTSD and then a treat 42 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: patients and obviously I'm an educated too, so I'm training 43 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: a lot of um young doctors in PTSD and psychiatry. 44 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: So I spent two decades caring for thousands of patients 45 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: who have survived various forms of trauma from child abuse, 46 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, rape, intimate partner's island, by straightening accidents, and war. 47 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: That's kind of a little bit about my background. Yeah, 48 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: I knew you discuss in the book how you had 49 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: this experience with your your father that kind of lad 50 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: you into this career. If you could speak to that 51 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: a little bit, Yeah, no, absolutely, So on a personal note, 52 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: you know, I have my own family history is one 53 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: of trauma and tragedy. Um So, during the nineteen partition 54 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: of British India, my paternal grandfather was murdered and my 55 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: dad was ten at that time, and he was offered 56 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: and forced to flee his home, you know, live as 57 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: a refugee in India, and he worked as a child laborer, 58 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: you know, because um uh, you know, there was no 59 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 1: other sources of income and both his parents were deceased. 60 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: Now two decades later, he ended up emigrating to England 61 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: and that's where I was born. And raised. So I 62 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: spent a lot of my life very disconnected from that 63 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: family history of trauma. You know, we never went back 64 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: to India barely with very little connection. But even though 65 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: there was that kind of geographical distance, I spent chunks 66 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: of my news living in the shadows that partitioner have 67 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: tasted on his life and kind of with this awareness 68 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: as a child. But no matter how much I loved 69 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: him and he loved me, it was a part of 70 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: him that was always going to be inaccessible. And somehow 71 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: I feel like as a child I did have this awareness, 72 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: but there was a collection between what happened to him 73 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: as a kid and why I was feeling this. But 74 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: it took me many years of training and many years 75 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: of being a clinician to really figure out, you know, 76 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: what that was and kind of give it a name. 77 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. And um, you, through these these years of experience, 78 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: you have written a book, The Unspeakable Mind. And congratulations, 79 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: by the way, that's that's no small feet. Thank you, 80 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for a yeah, I don't want 81 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: to take that very granted. And you wrote a book 82 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: that's amazing. Um, so could you talk about what led 83 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: you to to write this? Book, and UM, yeah, I have, 84 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: I have. I read it in a day. I loved it. 85 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: I think it's very informative. But yeah, I would love 86 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: if you just talked about like the experience of reading, right, 87 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 1: and then also if you could just add why you 88 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: felt it was important to add personal accounts to it, 89 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,239 Speaker 1: because I think as part of the thing that happens 90 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: that kind of lacks within all of these types of 91 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,239 Speaker 1: UM books and sociological ideas, that they lacked the actual 92 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: personal background that people often want to connect to. But 93 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: what made you go that route as well? But well, 94 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: thanks so much journeys of saying you enjoyed the book. 95 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: That means a lot because there's literally been a tenure 96 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: labor of club. So you know, that's what makes me happy. 97 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: It makes me happy that people who are kind of 98 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: you know, a general audience and educated lay audience who 99 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: might not have UM the kind of training UM in 100 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: in psychology. Uh, I wanted to reach that audience by 101 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: writing this book. So obviously you know in my scholarly work, 102 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: I write all the time. Right, you do scholarly papers, 103 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: you you editual research, and you're basically preaching to the quiet. 104 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: You're talking to the people who are in your circle. 105 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: My the dress behind writing Me and supil mind is 106 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: I really wanted to reach a wider audience. Um, you know, 107 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: I think theater person is much more aware about things like, 108 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: you know, the imfortance of a heart healthy lifestyle or 109 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: getting cancer prevention screenings and say they say they were 110 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,119 Speaker 1: like twenty thirty years ago. I really feel the time 111 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: has come where we have to elevate our society or 112 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: literacy about mental health and trauma and PTSD because we 113 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: have too much to lose if we don't write to 114 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: this challenge. So I wanted to tell the complete story 115 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: of PTSD in a way that it's accessible for anyone 116 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: who's curious to know more about this condition. And to me, um, 117 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, I've read a lot of books written by 118 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: doctor writers, and to me, when they talk about clinical experiences, 119 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: at my heart, I'm a cleinish that that's my primary role. 120 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: I find I just tapped into the material so much easier, Um, 121 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: when you go at it from a humanistic point of view, 122 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: when you go at it from the personal point of view, 123 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: and definitely for me as a writer, that's how it's 124 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: happened to the material. It's it's experiences with people that 125 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: make me want to write. So I always, naturally, even 126 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: kind of my process as a writer, I start from that, 127 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: that is what motivates me to write. UM. So, so yeah, 128 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,119 Speaker 1: I mean, I hope I answered your question. I wanted 129 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: to reach a wider orders because I think we have to. 130 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: PTSC is a press in public health concern. It's an 131 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: inextricable part of all of our lives, even if we 132 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: don't know it yet, it is, And so I really 133 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: wanted to reach a wider audience, but at the same 134 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: time present the mature in a way that people could digest. 135 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: You know, that was was I mean, it's hard. It's 136 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: hard to write about trauma. It's hard to read about trauma. 137 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 1: But I really wanted to do it in a way 138 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: that um would just make people more curious and help 139 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: understand the conditions that has really been widely misunderstood and 140 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: kind of alluded throughout history. UM. And then adds to 141 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: that this fact that the last twenty years has seen 142 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: such great research in PTSC, such wonderful science, and I 143 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: don't think that people are aware of that. I don't 144 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: think your average doctor is aware of how great scients, 145 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: how much great science has been PTC in the last 146 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: twenty years, and a lot of that has had to 147 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: do with major world events, like PTSC has really been 148 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: put on the map in the last twenty years, and 149 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: there's just some great stuff coming out. I mean, I'm 150 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: a PCC, especially my job to stay at tweed all 151 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: stay uncompable the science that's coming out, and it's hard 152 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: for me to stay on top of it. There's not 153 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: much of it. So really deconstructing that science and presenting 154 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: it um was very rewarding. UM because as they say, 155 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: I think people need to know, um, what we know 156 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: about this condition so that we can do more about it. Absolutely. 157 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: And one thing I want to expand on uh, and 158 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: that answer is you make the point. You make the 159 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: case several times in the book that it is a 160 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: public health issue, right if you could speak to you 161 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: why that is? Yeah, absolutely so, UM. You know, there 162 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: is this common perception out there that, um, you know, 163 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: when we think PTC, the automatic responses to think of 164 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: military and what we forget is that more than half 165 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: of Americans will say that at some point in their 166 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: lives they've lived through a major trauma, whether it's the 167 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, grateful family violence, will being robbed at gunpoint 168 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: or escaping a house fire. I mean, there are so 169 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: many life threatened traumas that the average Americans go to 170 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: every single day, and we also know that a subset 171 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: of them will experience multiple traumas and a significant minority 172 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: of those people will not here naturally in the afternoon. 173 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: And what that means is that at any given second, 174 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: there are six million Americans who are suffering from PTSD, 175 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: like actively suffering. That's a huge number of people, right, 176 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: and then if on top of that refactoring, there's this 177 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: condition called partial PTSD. It's kind of like being prediabetic, 178 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: you know, like you don't quite meet the textbooks, but 179 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean you're not suffering. And there are millions 180 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: upon millions of more people who we know have partial PTSD. 181 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: And you know, as you guys probably you know, PTC 182 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: doesn't live alone. It's often found amongst the depressed, the alcoholic, 183 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: drug addicted, the anxiety hidden all suffers or higher risks 184 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: of death by suicide. So if you think about the 185 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: collective mental health burden, that is huge, and so right 186 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: up until this point, I'm just talking about the survivor 187 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 1: formers awful, infectious. The family members of people with PTSD 188 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,719 Speaker 1: the higher risk of having problems with depression and anxiety 189 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: PTSC themselves. So you know, if you think of this 190 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: stuff is the children and the parents, this network of people, 191 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: it's it's a big, um pressing public health concern and 192 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: a big problem is only a certain stuffware yet uman 193 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: because it's toes to diagnosed. It's a challenge to treat, 194 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: and suffers often don't want to be reached, you know. 195 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: The last thing they want to do oftentimes is compute 196 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: the mode like me and talk about the trauma. So 197 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: in totality you can kind of see the various dimensions 198 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: that makes it this messing in public health concern. And 199 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: definitely from my alcohol as the health services researcher, I 200 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: think diagnosing it quickly and getting prompt treatment is key 201 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: and that is not happening. It's not happening partly because 202 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: we have such a shortage of mental health professionals, especially 203 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: in our inner cities, especially in our rural towns. We're 204 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: often you know, the mental health bad and it's huge. Yeah, um, 205 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: And that's one thing that you talk about and the 206 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: book is not only prevention but in the case that 207 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: you can't prevent that golden our UM. Do you speak 208 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: about both of those things? Yeah, absolutely so. I think 209 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: when we think about PTSD, we we rarely think about 210 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: it as something that can be prevented UM. But I 211 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: do think that is the way forwards. From the last 212 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: twenty years, we've learned a lot about how to prevent it, 213 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: and there is this fascination from clinicians and scientists about 214 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: this period called the gold analysts. If you think about 215 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: that window between when someone's exposed two trauma, you know whatever, 216 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: family violence, sexual violence upon that, and then there's that 217 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: window between exposure and when they actually develop PTSD UM. 218 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: Now we don't know exactly how long that window is, 219 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: but a lot of people have made it very convincing 220 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: arguments that that is where we have a chance for 221 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: medical intervention UM. If we can interview early in that window, 222 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: we can set the path towards recovery UM. And there's 223 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: some coptle wheel promising interventions. There's been a lot of 224 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: use of the stress hormone cortisols in that window to 225 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: help tray and prevent PTC and then even kind of 226 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: psychological therapy. So there's a therapy that works for PTST 227 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: called exposure therapy, and some we search is out of Atlanta, 228 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: actually out of Emory. Have um yeah, have um uh. 229 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: Then a modified form of explosure therapy with Thomas survivors 230 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: right there in the ear, you know, like very soon 231 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: after they come in having survived a trauma, whether it's 232 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: a car accident or physical assaults or sexual assaults. So 233 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: so you know, I don't know the data is ready 234 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: for prime time. This isn't certainly what we're doing in 235 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: routine practice, but there's some really encouraging this research, and 236 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: I think that is the way to go. We don't 237 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: spend enough on prevention in the United States. We focus 238 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: a lot more on treatment. But I think that's the 239 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: way we need to think about what we can do either, 240 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, evntional early intervention to help people right at 241 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: this point of trauma. You know, waiting ten, fifteen, twenty 242 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: years to people shut up achievement is not looking um. 243 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: So that that's what makes me excited about prevention, right 244 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: And I guess I was going to ask with the 245 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: prevention stuff because I did. You just had to small 246 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: like excerpts about UM and partner violence as well as 247 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: obviously sexual violence. Is that a part of like maybe 248 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: predicting within like economic status is about what is more 249 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: likely or more risk for those types of violence? Is 250 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: that part of what you would think would be trying 251 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: to do preventative treatment? How would you go about that? 252 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: I mean, what would we focus on educating in specific 253 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: like economic status areas and like specifically like what were 254 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: your thoughts on how to actually implement a preventative And 255 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: that's a great question because I mean, you know, if 256 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: we could have adequate into a partner violence, the sexual violence, 257 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: there's like you know, I mean, that would be miracles. 258 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: Cole questions. Yeah, but I things it takes a village 259 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: great and I think systems of health care have to 260 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: re engineer themselves to really think about this problem. And 261 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: I think too much htorically, um, you know, I mean 262 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: obviously you're you're wearing the same field from kind of 263 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: preaching to the choir by talking to about this, but 264 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: too often different medical systems they all want to talk 265 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: about domectric violence. It's really messy. They see there's a 266 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: a personal problem and something that they don't really know 267 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: how to respond to, and that culture just has to change. 268 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: Is you know, into a part of violence is a 269 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: major public health concern as well. It's really common and 270 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: a lot of points primary care is where these these 271 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: dickens are going to show up, you know, UM, and 272 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: that is an excellent opportunity for intervention. UM. The problem is, 273 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the tide is turning. So there's 274 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: there's an excellent work that was by Kaiser UM and 275 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: they published their results in in the General Amical Medical Association. 276 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: And really they've described this effort that they had come 277 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: up with system wise to kind of re engineer their 278 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: whole systems so that they were better set up to 279 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: identify victims of intimate partner violence, to offer interventions to UM, 280 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: offer resources and the whole kind of system from the 281 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: electronic medical record, to provide education, to organizational buy in 282 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: from the powers that be. That whole thing was looked at, 283 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: and that to me is the way to go. You know, 284 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: it takes a village, I really believe want provided by themselves. Desming. 285 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: It's how much you can do just because of the 286 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: nature of the problem. It's not only a common problem, 287 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: it's a difficult problem. And as you point out, a 288 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: lot of people in these situations also have uh, you know, 289 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: they have psychosocial problems. You know, they might not have 290 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: them as weeks. They might not have the most money, 291 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: they might not have access to great healthcare. And so 292 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: that some pounds and already complicated and difficult problems. You know, 293 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: they call I TV into what probably it is called 294 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: a wicked problems in that general article. It's really difficult 295 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 1: to tackle. So I think to eat takes a village. 296 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: Just some have to be the engineed. The good news 297 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: is I think for at a point in a society 298 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: with people recognize now you know, we've got to do 299 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: more for victims of violence, and you know, in addition 300 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 1: to you know, in addition to spreading their physical injuries, 301 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: we have to provide them tastes for psychological rehabilitation too. 302 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: You know, I feel like people are more sensitive to 303 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: now that now it's it's compared to say, twenty years 304 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: ago when I first adopted. I think, I think the 305 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: tide is turning. But we've got to keep at it 306 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: because you know, it's so easy for these things to 307 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: kind of fall off with people's radar just because they're 308 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: so emotionally taxing to dealing is. But yes, since have 309 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: to be re engineered. They think education take place at 310 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 1: every single level. Um, and just gonna go with that. 311 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: You talked at one point about people who are at 312 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: most risk and you, um include low income women, which 313 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: is fascinating, UM, because I don't think I've directly thought 314 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: of that as one of the high risk of people, 315 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: but obviously when you think back on what they go through, yes, 316 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: they are at high risk. So out of curiosity, what 317 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: do you think, because I did see that you wrote 318 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: about TRIM as well as peer support, what is the 319 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: best way that we can actually get services and provide 320 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: treatment for women and individuals who are in that low 321 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: income that are not given the privilege of seeking help 322 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: or being able to afford help. Yeah, I mean, yeah, 323 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: that's a really good question. It's really tough. Um, access 324 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: to care, right, that's the biggest staruer, you know. Um, 325 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: if you can't have access either because you're un in 326 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: short or you're you you're under insured. Um, you know 327 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: that's a luxury then that you're going to show up 328 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: in your doctor's office and tell them about the nightmares 329 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: you've been having or the news interns you've been having. 330 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, I worry a lot about these people that 331 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,719 Speaker 1: we don't even reach. Um. So from my angle as 332 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: a physician, that's why access to health care, you know, 333 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: really have to be a right, not a privilege for everybody. 334 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: Um I think on the other end, like it's disciple, 335 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: and I do think just elevating the conversation about trauma, 336 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: just so people can kind of connect the doctor a 337 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: little bit and maybe be curious and maybe understand that's 338 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: really important because I think for too long it just 339 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: wasn't even a direct right. PTC just was denied, was hidden, 340 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: was not spoken about, not because not kind of intentionally, 341 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: it's just part of the nature of trauma, but your 342 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: natural inclination to not think of it it is unspeakable. 343 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: But I really am encouraged by the fact we're living 344 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: in a time where I do think the society was 345 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: kind of getting better. Obviously there's a long way to go, 346 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 1: so we are getting better at giving it a name, 347 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: and I can't help feel that that it's going to 348 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: have a good trickle down effect for everybody. But at 349 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: the same time, it doesn't take away the real problems. 350 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: I mean, access to health care is really really important, 351 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: and unfortunately it's just denied to turn any and it's 352 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: den likely that people who really really need it, you know, um, 353 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: and that's just a bigger problem for us. We have 354 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: to think of the society what we want, how we 355 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: want to care for people who don't have resources. It's 356 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: a bigger question. It's a policy question, obviously, it's a 357 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: prodical question. Access is important, and I think from my 358 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: angle as a psychiatrist, you know, my practice is in 359 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: primary care. I have moved my practice from a mental 360 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: health pointic too, primly care because I know a lot 361 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: of times people who have PTCC they show from time 362 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: with care. They don't come to someone like me. So 363 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 1: I do think there's still a lot more that can 364 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: be done on the s medical side, you know. So um, 365 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: So that takes down a lot of barriers. You know, Um, 366 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: they're seeing a psychiatrist right there in the time you 367 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: clip and make the regular timely care doctors introduced them 368 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: to the mental health professional. It breaks down a lot 369 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 1: of the stigma and a lot of the barriers to acent. 370 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,959 Speaker 1: So there's a lot that can be done on on 371 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 1: many levels to help folks who are marginally social economically 372 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: get active to help We have some more of our interview, 373 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: but first we have a quick break for a word 374 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, m and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Well, 375 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about the title specifically 376 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: you kind of touched on it and there, um, I 377 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: don't know if you wanna get into more detail about that, 378 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: how you came upon the title what it means. So 379 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: trauma often represents, you know, the violation everything we hold 380 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: to be dear and sacred and so almost simply too 381 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: terrible to utterly allowed. You know, the natural human connection 382 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: is to deny trauma it's existence, and so trauma becomes unspeakable. Um. 383 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes the survivor wants to speak, but if 384 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: the wider community is unwilling or unable to bear witness 385 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: to their story, then the survivors boced into silence. But 386 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: either way, trauma becomes unspeakable. The problem is, we now 387 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: know definitively that PTSD tribes in such conditions. You know, 388 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: when traumatic thoughts and memories are unspeakable or unsinkable for 389 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: too long, we actually interfere with that brains natural processes 390 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: of propantly after trauma, you know, those memories become step 391 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: points that inhibit the mental reintegration that is so vital 392 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 1: for trauma survivors to heal. So, you know, the unspeakable 393 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: is at the core of what is the problem with PTSD. 394 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: Rendering the unspeakable permanently speakable is just crucial to the 395 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: coverage and a really integral part of what we know 396 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: works for PTSD in terms of trauma focused schatology. We UM, 397 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: we have a lot of international listeners. In one chapter 398 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: that I found really interesting is the one about the 399 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: Americanization of Human suffering and your experience at this conference 400 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: in India. UM. I was wondering if you could speak 401 00:24:52,600 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: to to that. UM. Yeah, very frustrating. UM. So you know, 402 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: I mean, this is an un news story, like if 403 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: you talked to some of the pioneers in PTSD research 404 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: and tatist treatment. You know, I had a conversation with 405 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: Charles Mama, who's UM care at any one US psychiatry, 406 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: and he gave testimony to Congress around the time of 407 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, UM about what PTSD is and why 408 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: we should say take it seriously and all those pioneering 409 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: you know, clinicians and researchers face such resistance. There is 410 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: something about patios that just book so many people that's 411 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: the same way a trauma survivor might want to deny 412 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: that trauma. On a society whole level. For some reason, 413 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: people want to remind a PTSTY resists. UM. Now, I 414 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: think in America and kind of you appear in American societies. 415 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: I think we've we've we've done a lot better at um, 416 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: you know, kind of giving it a name and um 417 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: in the to getting it so much and understanding it 418 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,959 Speaker 1: so much that it has become parmp parcel of our 419 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: modern vernacular. Unfortunately, there is this kind of global controversy UM, 420 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: and this kind of theory that's put out there that 421 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: somehow PTSD is this kind of americanization of human suffering 422 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: and that um you know, um uh. People in low 423 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: and middle income countries, they they're essentially they're they're they're 424 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: much tougher than your average Americans who's just too whining, 425 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: and when they shove a trauma, they have to take 426 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: on this disorder and kind of take on this system role. UM. 427 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: A lot of the reasons for this controversy was data 428 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: from this World Mental Health Survey, which came back as 429 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: showing that rates of PTSD was really low in low 430 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: and middle income countries like close to zero percent, and 431 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: that's what started this massive controversy, Like, what's the point 432 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: of is diagnosedis if it doesn't have worldwide relevance, And um, 433 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: maybe people from low income countries are more accepting a 434 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: trauma and that they have this kind of paradoxical resiliency. 435 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: So my concern as PCC specialists and a trauma thing 436 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: because I think there's probably other explanations for why the 437 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: world's Mental Health Survey data came out that way. Um, 438 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: and I don't think the explanationalize in the fact that 439 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: PTC is just something that Americans experienced. I don't think 440 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: that is the explanation. My biggest concern is that as 441 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of times the people who suffer 442 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: the most, they're the biggest trauma are women, children, the poor, 443 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: the marginalized group. They're the ones who have always been 444 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: harder to by trauma. But depending on the laws of 445 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: the country, they might not actually have a voyage to 446 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: speak of, you know. So as there's an example, you know, 447 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: homosexuality is still illegal in a lot of countries, right, 448 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: so if you're homosexual and you experienced some types of 449 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: homer in the context of your sexuality. Are you really 450 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: going to speak up about it? You know, you're you're 451 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: basically saying you're a criminal by speaking up by it. 452 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: And so I do believe that, like disiness instituously too quickly, Um, 453 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot of silent suffering that's going to go dismissed. 454 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: And of more urgencies is if you dismissed PTSD, then 455 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: doctors are going to stop looking for it. No one's 456 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: going to pay money to research it, but it's still 457 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: going to be there, you know. So so that is 458 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: a very um, disconcerting argument that is out there that 459 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,239 Speaker 1: I wanted to raise it awareness about. You know, it's 460 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: definitely just kind of seeing it's not Aslow's hierarchy of means. 461 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure you guys are familiar with, is right that 462 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,959 Speaker 1: you know, when physical survival is the problem, you know, 463 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: then you can't guarantee a roof over your hair, over 464 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: on the table, close on your back. Then psychological well 465 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,959 Speaker 1: being does take a vacca. And I'm sure in a 466 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: lot of blowing your InCom countries too much to the 467 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: luxury to think of out your trauma to the luxury 468 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: to deal with the psychological symptoms. But I do think 469 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: it's important. It just takes a back seat. It doesn't disappear, right, 470 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: you know, That's that's what we have to remember. It's 471 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: still there. And I think what's happening is it just 472 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: get kicked down the road. You may never deal with 473 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: different thing that kids are going to have to deal with. It, 474 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: someone's going to have to deal with at some point. Um. 475 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: So you know, denying it restance in restance to me, 476 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: it's just too too extremes. You know, trauma happens. It 477 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: happens in every culture and society the world. We have 478 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: to get better identifying betweens of trauma and making sure 479 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: that their voice is heard and if they need psychological rehibilitation, 480 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: they get it absolutely. Um. One thing you you touched 481 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: on in that answer is something else that I really 482 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: resonated with me was, um, you have a chapter on 483 00:29:54,400 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: the idea of resilience, UM, and how it's shifts, like 484 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: some days you're stronger than other days. Um, it's a 485 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: it's a process that changes. I don't know if you 486 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: you would mind speaking about that a little bit. Yeah, 487 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: So the visilience is just as really interesting words, right, 488 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: I feel like you gets thrown about a lot and 489 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: you know, people are really praised for their you know, 490 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: resilience and um uh, but I think we're not. We're 491 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: kind of getting it's kind of thrown out in a 492 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: very reductive way. Um. I feel like there is this 493 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: tendency in our culture to make people into superheroes, you know, like, 494 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,959 Speaker 1: oh my god, look what happens to person They stuffed 495 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: x YG, but yet they triumphed and they're amazing and 496 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: they went on to do this and that. And I 497 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: don't deny that those people exist, and I don't deny 498 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: that we can learn a lot some people like that. 499 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: I think from the point of view sing a physition 500 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: and from the point of view of someone who likes 501 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: to seeking from a kind of public house point of view, 502 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: the opposite problem is much more. You know, there's next 503 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: point in dealing with unicorns or outlies. We have a 504 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: very big problem in that not only one can access 505 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: ways to be residion. And I think we should really 506 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: think about how you can help everybody be resident, as 507 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: opposed to making the example of people who are really unusual. Um. 508 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: And the other thing that I think doesn't get addressed 509 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: is how much of your regidience is tied to your 510 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: social socioeconomic status. Right, So you know, if you underwent 511 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: a trauma and you have really supported parents, or you 512 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: come from background where you have access to education or 513 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: economic means. Um. You know, if you're a position of 514 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: privilege in society, you're not going to be pretty resilience 515 00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: just by virtue of your discode in your geography. And 516 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: I don't think we give that enough. Um, we don't 517 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: weigh that into the equation. You know, we like to 518 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: think it's something inherent to that individual's character. We're looking 519 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: a lot of it to do with socio economic factors. 520 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,959 Speaker 1: And then we don't do the opposite when people let 521 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: tonight that we don't. We don't see how my God, 522 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: as hard as they're trying to lead to be resilient, 523 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: that is really weighing them down. So so I think 524 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: I think unless we just way looking at exilians and 525 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: more evolved way of looking at the giant is that 526 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: it's multidimensional. There's different ways of being resilient, and it 527 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: actually the ways of the comment's life. So it depends 528 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: where you're meeting them on the journey of their life. 529 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,719 Speaker 1: You know, you made someone who had put a lot 530 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: of childhood diversity who had experienced, um, you know, other 531 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: traumas in their life. Maybe they've been sectually assaulted or 532 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: or they had uh, you know, being physically assaulted, and 533 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: they may come through all of this and slide and 534 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: learn to be resilient. But then something else might happen 535 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: later in your life, which is kind of like the 536 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: store the books to come was back, you know, and 537 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: you might be needing them at a later stage. Image 538 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: And you just never know what people have been through. 539 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: So I think to say, oh, you're resilience and you're 540 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: not resilient, it doesn't make sense to me think shifts 541 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: of time people's ability to be resilient. So it's multidimensional. Um. 542 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: I think there's many external factors. There's also many inherent factors, 543 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, because these highly heritable conditions. There's a lot 544 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: to do with the way we're wired and the kind 545 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: of genes that we have. Little too determines fur a 546 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: response to trauma. So so yeah, I mean, I'm all 547 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,719 Speaker 1: four resilience, but I think we have to look at 548 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: it in a broad way and we really have to 549 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: think about leveling the plain fields so that all people 550 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: can do resilient, like regardless of the community they're from. 551 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: You know, these pathways for them to be a book 552 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: to be resilient in the face of trauma. Yeah, actually 553 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: can you? Um, and I was gonna ask if you 554 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: can talk a little more about the genetic idea because 555 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: I don't think we talked about that as a thing 556 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: honestly when it comes to PTSD, everything so um, environmental 557 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: it things. But in your book, I think it's really 558 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: fascinating that you go wonder a little more in depth 559 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: about the genetics as well. So can you talk a 560 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: little more about that? Yeah? So, so what emerging and 561 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: actient is is that even if the definition you know, 562 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: tuities linked to the jipternal traumatic events, so basically, you know, 563 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: you have to live for a trauma and then you 564 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: might develop PTSD. So we tend to think of it 565 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: as oh, well, it's quickly to do with what happens 566 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: in your life, right, But actually what this realized that 567 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: the last than years is the actual condition itself is 568 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,280 Speaker 1: highly heritable. So you know, you can take two people 569 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: who exposed exposed to exactly the same trauma, one of 570 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: them will develop PTSD, one of them want and what 571 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: you tell in who will and who wants. Genetics plays 572 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: a big part, So you know, a bastard of the 573 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: overall risk of developing PTSD following exposure to trauma is 574 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: determined by genetics. And I think that's the way that 575 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: plays out, is you know, the way your brain is wired, 576 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: the way your body mounts a response to stress, all 577 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: of which is probably you know, um predicted by your 578 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: genes and factors that, like I said, are heritable. The 579 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: other thing that is really interesting is um this etogenetics, 580 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: the scientist etogenetics, which we are still in our instancy 581 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: of understanding, but I think it is really fascinating, And 582 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 1: it's this notion that when a man or a woman 583 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: is exposed to a really damaging psychological trauma, it impacts 584 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: the man or the women's eggs, and then these changes 585 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: are transmitted to their future children right into generational transmissions, 586 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: and so that leads these children vulnerable via alter duron 587 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: you and ast me and gene. So then these children 588 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: of the traumatized terms are at risk even though they 589 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 1: themselves they never have been exposed to traumatic events, right 590 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean to me, that's just fastening to 591 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: then when you think the cases of mass traumatization rate. 592 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: When you think of atrocities like holocaust or genocide, or 593 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: or slavery or torture. You know, the TTFCS inprints can 594 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: last through generations. And you know, so again we're kind 595 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: of in our interncer of understanding epigenetics, but I really 596 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: do think, um, we have to understand the impact of 597 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: trauma and how long lasting it can be and how 598 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: it can it can have consequences not only for the survivor, 599 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: but for so many people beyond that. Yeah, I personally 600 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: am fascinated with epigemic so I'm interested to see where 601 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: they're that research goes. We have a little bit more 602 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: of our interview, but we have one more quick break 603 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank 604 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: you sponsoring. Another thing we talked about in the book 605 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: is how there is this research on going into things 606 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 1: that you you are very quick to say there's no 607 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: magic bullet, and people are eager for this magic bullet. 608 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: But in like the cannabis or m D M A. 609 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: But on the flip side of that, you talk about, um, 610 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: the opioid crisis, and yeah, I would love if you 611 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: could go into more detail on that. But on the crisis. 612 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:57,439 Speaker 1: Thank so. Yeah, So this troubling relationship between addiction and PTSD, um, 613 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: I mean that's something I see a lot um So 614 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: just the general kind of overall observation that PTSD and 615 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: addictions will stand in hand a lot, right. So, some 616 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 1: studies have reported that of the six of addicted persons 617 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: also have PTSD, you know, and you can you can 618 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: understand why you know, self medicating with alcohol, drugs, food gambling. 619 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: Say that numb is emotional pain, you know, and it 620 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: can use anxiety and you can use lightness. The problem 621 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: is that in the long run this cooking strategy is 622 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: dangerous and so often it just morphed into the full 623 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: blown addiction. And there is specifically regards to the outfield crisis, 624 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: there is the troubling relationship between PTSD, chronic chain and 625 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: outfood addictions. You know, up to thirty five of chronic 626 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: pain patients also have PTSD. And there's a condition called 627 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: fibro mailger, which is another chronic pain condition. Some people 628 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: there have been report in the literature that some people 629 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: are kind of saying that PTC inside birounding actually the 630 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: same thing. So there's definitely something about this physical manifestation 631 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: of psychological pain that we're really in that infinitive understanding. 632 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: The problem is that pure related side effects, you know, 633 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: things like falls, being in an accident, overdosing, or attempting suicide. 634 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: They're much more common in pain patients who also have 635 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: PTSD compared to those who only have pain. Right, So 636 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: what's kind of emerging is this in plain that when 637 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 1: people are using pain tools to no emotional pain instead 638 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: of getting treatment for the emotional pain, you know, with 639 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 1: psychological treatments, there's some dangerous about that, right, That's part 640 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,479 Speaker 1: of what he's emerging. There was a couple of big 641 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: data cities that kind of davages goods I view of 642 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: what was happening, and that's the kind of feature that's 643 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: coming through. And definitely polically a curis do that all 644 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 1: the time. I feel I see people non emotional pain 645 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: with prescription code that are given to them for other 646 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: reasons and it just doesn't end well. Unfortunately, I just 647 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: don't think that's a solution. So without let me ask you, 648 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: because it's just off top of the head we were 649 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: talking when you were talking about um PTSD is possibly 650 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: being a genetic h predictor, do you think there's a 651 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: common link to those who have addictive personalities as well, 652 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: because obviously when you look at addictive personalities, there's a 653 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: little that's just a little different than your everyday pain 654 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: medication addiction. Do you know what I'm saying? Is there 655 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: a link between those things? Do you think? I'm sure 656 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: there is, And it goes to right, So people with PTC, 657 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,720 Speaker 1: we can see why they might be drawn to addictive behavior, 658 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: But it goes the other way too. I mean, you 659 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: think about specific textivity, who has an alcohol addiction problem? Right, 660 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 1: they're probably more likely to get into accidents, They're probably 661 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: more likely to be put in situations there where there where, 662 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: they're more at risk of being assaulted, and so they're 663 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: more likely to get PTSD as well. But that the 664 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: latanism the relationships to reversed, right, The addiction makes them 665 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: more likely to be exposed to trauma, and that makes 666 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: them more likely to get PTSD. So I think the 667 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: two really correlated and very much interrelated. And I'm sure 668 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: there's probably some shared gene pathways. I'm sure. Um, I 669 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: don't know of anything definitive, but I feel like, um, certainly, 670 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: from the collisal point of view, we see the two 671 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: go hand in hand. In fact, there's actually been treatment developed. 672 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:59,280 Speaker 1: There's one for Seeking Safety UMI which aims to address 673 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,360 Speaker 1: those problems at the same time. You know, trauma and addiction. 674 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 1: That's how much you're problem there is that we see 675 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: all the times clinicians that you know, they're both going 676 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: hand in hand and they both need to be addressed. UM. 677 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: So so yeah, I don't doubt there's some overlapp in 678 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: terms of you know, what's causing the addiction, what's causing 679 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: the contity. I just don't think they have a very 680 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: clear idea of exactly what that is. And and just 681 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: to ask one more more more a long with that 682 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: someone in the field, how often do you see that 683 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: for people who work in the nonprofit or insectors like 684 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 1: yourself that work with people UM they have to do 685 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: treatments for PTSD or see a lot of that UM 686 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 1: secondary trauma UM like first responders and such for the 687 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,840 Speaker 1: addictive personality as well as the trauma. How often do 688 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: you see that and UM people who are considered first 689 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: responders Because I know many of I've seen that social 690 00:42:54,880 --> 00:43:00,320 Speaker 1: workers get caught up in UM psychiatric medication and involved 691 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: after certain situations, whether it's let's say a social worker 692 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: who's working with a mass shooting incident, that I end 693 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: up having an addictive personality hand in hand. How often 694 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: do you see that for those type of workers. So 695 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,839 Speaker 1: I think anybody traumas infecture, right making, anybody who, through 696 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,240 Speaker 1: the course of their profession is routinely exposed to traumatic 697 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: situations like bearing witness to trauma, whether it be like 698 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: first responders, whether it be in military, whether it be um. 699 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: You know, mental health professionals. To professionals, I think we 700 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 1: have to recognize it to what it is. We are 701 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: high risks of being exposed to trauma. So, you know, 702 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,799 Speaker 1: the same way we make maybe things of like being 703 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:44,400 Speaker 1: exposed to a violence, right like you know, all healthcare professionals, 704 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 1: we all have to get vaccinated, rights right have be 705 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: and we will have to get our influence that shot. 706 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,760 Speaker 1: Why because we've got a high chance of being exposed 707 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: to someone who's ticked, and we have to inoctimate ourselves 708 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: and protect ourselves so that we don't get sticks. So 709 00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: I think we have to think the same way about 710 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: homer Um. I see mental health professionals, we do a 711 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: bit of a better job about recognizing what's happening to 712 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: us um recognizing if we're feeling, um troubled by what 713 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: we're hearing and how it might impact our ability to 714 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: care for ourselves and care for other people. Certainly, I 715 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: feel like I grew up in a tradition where my 716 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: colleagues are more receptive to me talking to them if 717 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: I'm having a tough time. It's more acceptible for me, 718 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,479 Speaker 1: not to my feelings. Of course I'm the link your face, 719 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: but I do feel the culture is accepting. I don't 720 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,320 Speaker 1: feel the wider medical culture or the wider first responder culture, 721 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: you know, like he's firefighters don't don't think it is 722 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: acceptable to admit that you are betting troubled by these things. 723 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: And then what happens people self medicated, Right, It turned 724 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: to addictal substances to self medicate because just because you 725 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,080 Speaker 1: don't admit it doesn't entertain it's not there. Um. So again, yeah, 726 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: one of the optimistic I do feel. I mean, there 727 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: are some really great programs to the first responded. Now 728 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: there's good to realdy programs to your programs for the 729 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 1: people are accepting that puts it's an occupational with right, 730 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: and they're they're they're recognizing it and people are talking 731 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: about it more and it had become more accessible, UM 732 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: for people to uh be vulnerable, you know, and it's 733 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 1: and and say that they're not to parent. Um, you know, 734 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 1: I'm encouraged when everyone around young people are very encouraged. 735 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: I feel like they use them much more in tune 736 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: with voicing how they are feeling about certain situations. So 737 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 1: I do feel like there's been a cultural shift. But again, 738 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 1: we just have to make it. We have to destigmatize 739 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,880 Speaker 1: a lot of issues around mental health to make it, 740 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: to make it just really accessible and make it easier 741 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 1: for people to come out and say what's going on. 742 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: So I think not only caring for the people we're 743 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: trying to serve, but caring for ourselves. So stif cannot 744 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:07,000 Speaker 1: be under underestimated when you're in the signe of books. Absolutely, 745 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 1: And one of the things UM, as we're kind of 746 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: wrapping up here, I wanted to touch on and you 747 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 1: can totally pass on this, but on a personal note, UM, 748 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: you've dedicated your life to this, Um, you've written a book, 749 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:27,239 Speaker 1: your it's it's your livelihood. Um, do you are there 750 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,280 Speaker 1: things that you do? Have you experienced this secondary trauma? 751 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 1: And what how do you manage it? Yeah, no, absolutely, 752 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,319 Speaker 1: So you know, I'm this is like my twentieth year 753 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:48,840 Speaker 1: of being a doctor actually national mark twenty years um. 754 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:55,239 Speaker 1: I you know, I feel like um, as I was 755 00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:00,359 Speaker 1: reaching that twenty year mark, UM, I feel like there 756 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 1: was a lot of visage that had been building up. UM. 757 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,960 Speaker 1: You know in your clinical experiences day today, when you're 758 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: trying to take care of patients, you know, there's there's 759 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 1: what happens in real time, right you meet them, you 760 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,880 Speaker 1: make the different make dignilities, you can up position in turn, 761 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: but there is so much that happens in that visit. 762 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:26,840 Speaker 1: There are so many other dimensions that get touched on, moral, ethical, philosophical, emotional, psychological, 763 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: not only for the patient but for me too, and 764 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: they often don't get the home with the real time righty. 765 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,400 Speaker 1: You don't have time to deal with everything. You have 766 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: to kind of do the work that needs to be 767 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: get done to kind of getting moving um. You know. 768 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 1: And um, when those other dimensions do not get extended too, 769 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 1: I think, UM issue, you start to build up and 770 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: it's like a stubborn kind of ended your studdn thing, 771 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,839 Speaker 1: you know, you start to lose your shine. And when 772 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: I was writing this book in peopople mind. I was 773 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,880 Speaker 1: reaching at twenty m or for being a doctor, like 774 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:11,400 Speaker 1: I said, And I think for me, writing this book 775 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: really allowed me to go through this process of paying 776 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:25,279 Speaker 1: attention to that residue and leaving it all on the page. UM. 777 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,920 Speaker 1: There's definitely something burning inside of me that needs to 778 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,960 Speaker 1: get out. And I think from a kind of creative angle, 779 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:38,080 Speaker 1: being able to draw on twenty years of clinical experiences 780 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,759 Speaker 1: and kind of relived them and hashed them out through 781 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 1: the process of writing, UM was really valuable. UM. I 782 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,200 Speaker 1: felt like I could leave a lot of stuff on 783 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:55,880 Speaker 1: the page. I think I emerged feeling lighter, more rejuvenated, 784 00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 1: and hopeful that you know, maybe I can do this 785 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,920 Speaker 1: sort of the twenty years. UM. So for me, you 786 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,840 Speaker 1: answered your question where think the writing is what helps 787 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,239 Speaker 1: me personally? Let me ask you this. IM sorry, I 788 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 1: didn't mean to interrupt you, because I just I think 789 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,280 Speaker 1: what you when you were talking about having to essentially 790 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: stabilize someone and can't hit on every note and n 791 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 1: feeling like for me, I've had many incidences where I've 792 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,040 Speaker 1: had to do crisis management only and then walk away 793 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,760 Speaker 1: and then things fall apart because I couldn't do everything 794 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: I felt needed to be done. And I call this 795 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 1: survivor's guilt or just guilt in general. Like, and I 796 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,319 Speaker 1: know I read something about in your book about how 797 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:40,680 Speaker 1: you talked about people who feel guilty for feeling for 798 00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: feeling like they're having an emotional trauma even though they 799 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,560 Speaker 1: survived um and things like that. How do you cope 800 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,759 Speaker 1: with that? How Like for those of us that are 801 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,479 Speaker 1: in this profession that don't always have the time because 802 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: I worked with the investigating child abuse and I work 803 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,399 Speaker 1: with at riskines, how do you go on and not 804 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,040 Speaker 1: get that a out not giving up hope? And I'm 805 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,799 Speaker 1: feeling like, how do I get this? Because I didn't 806 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,279 Speaker 1: get to do this, this and this, and now things 807 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,840 Speaker 1: have fallen apart in different ways and I just feel guilty. 808 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: How do we go with that? How do we cope 809 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: with that? So, so one thing I don't think we 810 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 1: do in ourselves in this world. And I feel this 811 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,879 Speaker 1: how I self is be eroded over the last twenty 812 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,239 Speaker 1: years of being in this profession. But one thing I 813 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,239 Speaker 1: don't think health care profession knowles and care givers, what 814 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: we don't do enough fast is just admit that what 815 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,800 Speaker 1: we do. It's really really hard, right, what the work 816 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:38,440 Speaker 1: we do and the circumstances under which operate are really hard. 817 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,160 Speaker 1: Um And I do feel like we live in this 818 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:50,160 Speaker 1: world that celebrates the trivial and um um, it doesn't 819 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:56,600 Speaker 1: value doing complicated things where you're not necessarily going to 820 00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:00,520 Speaker 1: get a massive return on your investment. Um. So, I 821 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,160 Speaker 1: think there's a cultural terne where we have to reclaim 822 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,799 Speaker 1: that what we do is important, must be done. But 823 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,800 Speaker 1: it's really really hard. So I think studying really realistic 824 00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:16,920 Speaker 1: expectations it's really important. UM. I am a realist. I'm 825 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 1: a pregntist, you know. I don't know if it goes 826 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,440 Speaker 1: on an immigrant. I don't know if corund the door 827 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,759 Speaker 1: an immigrants. But I don't think I'm an optimist. I 828 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,000 Speaker 1: feel like kind of realist. I'm a pragnotist, and I 829 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 1: think that's helped keep me grounded because I set my 830 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: expectations accordingly. Um And I know that sometimes I'm not 831 00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:41,080 Speaker 1: able to help people in the minute, right, But that 832 00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,879 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that something you have not said to them 833 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,759 Speaker 1: or something you have not done for them won't help 834 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,120 Speaker 1: them future downline, and you may not be there to 835 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,480 Speaker 1: witness that. So so we must keep trying, right, So, 836 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:58,480 Speaker 1: I feel like setting realistic expectations in when we're living 837 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:03,560 Speaker 1: in the world that so undermined and sot with so 838 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,800 Speaker 1: many things that are trivial, is really hard. So I 839 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: I think that is really important, recognizing how itsporant is 840 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,279 Speaker 1: what we do, the impact that we have in people's life. 841 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:16,719 Speaker 1: And then I think the other thing is to me, 842 00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,960 Speaker 1: I feel like most of the mental health professionals, I know, 843 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: most of the health to professionals, I know, the one 844 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: you are really really good at their jobs, they probably 845 00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,400 Speaker 1: started doing that role way before they got their actual 846 00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:34,759 Speaker 1: professor qualification. So what need um the one who are 847 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,760 Speaker 1: really passionate torank you to what they do, they're working 848 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,279 Speaker 1: something else to reuters, And so I think we have 849 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that, right, like how much of you, how 850 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:46,600 Speaker 1: much of what you're feeling, how much is the survival 851 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,200 Speaker 1: to go that you're feeling is about the current situation, 852 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,080 Speaker 1: how much of it has to do with something else? 853 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:53,319 Speaker 1: And then of course that's why it's really important. You 854 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,280 Speaker 1: have your own ways of caring for yourself and getting 855 00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,960 Speaker 1: any any attention that you might need, you know, healthwise, um, 856 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,879 Speaker 1: you know healthwise into self care I think is an 857 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,279 Speaker 1: absolute non neglogiable if you're going to do this type 858 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:13,680 Speaker 1: of world. Um, but it's not an easy I mean 859 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 1: your questions are really important one because you know we're 860 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,400 Speaker 1: dealing with the record levels of the inquestion now, so 861 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,600 Speaker 1: clearly this is not imagined, it's very real. But to me, 862 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,640 Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, your careers should be American, right, 863 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,439 Speaker 1: you want to be here twenty years from no, thiry 864 00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: years from now. You don't want to be burning out 865 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:35,680 Speaker 1: and linable to help people and um, and you have 866 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,000 Speaker 1: to do what it takes to be able to have 867 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,480 Speaker 1: that knowledge that you have that statina, you know. And 868 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,719 Speaker 1: I feel like healthy professional to a kind of condemnital 869 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,960 Speaker 1: caregivers there take care of themselves the way they should, right, 870 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,640 Speaker 1: you know, they they put other people's needs too much, 871 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:52,359 Speaker 1: and they think there's something to be said for having 872 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 1: boundaries and saying, okay, all right, I'm done to the 873 00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,439 Speaker 1: day and I'm not going to take this home and 874 00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,359 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do something for myself. But you don't. By 875 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,160 Speaker 1: doing something for yourself, you're you're going to survive another 876 00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,600 Speaker 1: day to do something for somebody else. So it's not 877 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:10,440 Speaker 1: being selfish. It's having healthy bounties. But you know, I 878 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,640 Speaker 1: mean I I can talk this way, but it is 879 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,080 Speaker 1: an ongoing battle, all trying to figure it out. Say today, 880 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,799 Speaker 1: what to do? How to do it? You know? Right? Yeah, 881 00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:25,520 Speaker 1: I think. Um, that's a great wrap up point. Unless 882 00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,200 Speaker 1: you have something else you want to touch on, We'll 883 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:29,440 Speaker 1: obviously give you a chance to plug your book and 884 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,080 Speaker 1: where people can find you. But if there's anything else 885 00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,760 Speaker 1: you want to speak to you before that, now's the time. No, this, 886 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,800 Speaker 1: this has been a lot of fun. Thanks for having 887 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,640 Speaker 1: me on. I'm so um it's so awesome for me 888 00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,280 Speaker 1: to talk to people who have read the book. And um, 889 00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,719 Speaker 1: I really hope it was done little to you and 890 00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 1: that that makes me be happy. So it was all 891 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,399 Speaker 1: worth it, all the hard work as with it. Yes, 892 00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: and congratulations again, Like I don't want to sweep under 893 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,120 Speaker 1: the rug. You wrote a book. Um, it was very 894 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 1: well researched, very well written. So you wrote a bug 895 00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: that was readable. It's like not just for people who 896 00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,120 Speaker 1: um are fascinated by trauma and all of the research, 897 00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:10,880 Speaker 1: but actual story, personal telling and and some new ideas. 898 00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,279 Speaker 1: And then I love that that's so um available for people, 899 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,640 Speaker 1: And I love that. That's awesome. Thank you. It's really 900 00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:19,440 Speaker 1: nice to hear that. I mean, it was a labor 901 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,399 Speaker 1: of love, you know, it took me tenuous, but that's 902 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,960 Speaker 1: pretty That was the result that I wanted And if 903 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,680 Speaker 1: that's what's happening, it was totally worth it. Thanks so 904 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,279 Speaker 1: much for sharing a feedback. Keep reading in a lot awesome. Yeah. 905 00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,680 Speaker 1: So if you want to just shout out the book 906 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,279 Speaker 1: and uh when it comes out, I believe it's in. Yeah, 907 00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,799 Speaker 1: you you do it and then all of your all 908 00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,920 Speaker 1: of your social media is so we can get to you. Yeah. 909 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,640 Speaker 1: So it's um it's called The Unsuperable Mine, Stories of 910 00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,480 Speaker 1: Trauma and Hearing from the front Range of PTSD Science, 911 00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,280 Speaker 1: and it's published by Harper and it's coming out May seventh, 912 00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:59,880 Speaker 1: of theshes. It doesn't main keen and folks confined me 913 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,359 Speaker 1: on Twitter at chetty Jane MD and I'm also on 914 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:08,520 Speaker 1: Facebook and like which site is www dot Chetty Jane 915 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:13,799 Speaker 1: MD dot com. Awesome, thank you so much for for 916 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:18,120 Speaker 1: doing this, and yes, we try to figure this out. 917 00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:23,440 Speaker 1: That's no problem. Happy Friday. Need the weekend like we 918 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:30,120 Speaker 1: needed the weekend absolutely all right, Thank you so much, care, 919 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,480 Speaker 1: thank you, bye bye. That brings us to the end 920 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:38,040 Speaker 1: of our interview with Dr Jane. I hope that you 921 00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:43,040 Speaker 1: found it as enjoyable and as informative as you did, Yes, 922 00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:47,799 Speaker 1: as therapeutic. Please go check out her book. Like I said, 923 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:54,000 Speaker 1: it was very um. It was an informative and easy read. 924 00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,200 Speaker 1: Like I don't easy is not necessarily what I want 925 00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,839 Speaker 1: to use, but before something that is that kind of 926 00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:04,960 Speaker 1: complex and deep. It was very digestible, like a chicken 927 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,920 Speaker 1: we have and the meconi and cheese. Yeah, we were 928 00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,560 Speaker 1: very hungry. Um. But yeah. Thank you so much to 929 00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:16,800 Speaker 1: her for joining us. Thank you to you, Samantha, Yes 930 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:21,120 Speaker 1: as always, Thank you too, Andrew Howard are producing Andrew 931 00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:25,360 Speaker 1: beats some Chicken. Yes, and thank you listeners for listening. 932 00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:27,760 Speaker 1: If you would like to email as you can or 933 00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,520 Speaker 1: email is mom Stuff at out stapparks dot com. You 934 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,040 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast and 935 00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:35,919 Speaker 1: on Instagram as stuff I've Never told you. Thanks again 936 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:36,480 Speaker 1: for listening.