1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From how Stop 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristin Christen. There's this this form of 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: exercise that I'm a little skeptical about a lot of 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: people are saying that it's it's liberating and fun. Is 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: it Tibo? But no, no, not yet, although I do 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: have Tybo on video cassette. I've done Tybo before, back 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: in the day. I used to do it in my 9 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: parents basement. Billy Blanks. Yeah, yeah, like it's tough. I 10 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: worked up a sweat. No it's not. It's not Tybo. No, No, 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: we're talking about stripper sizing a k a. Cardios stripped 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: tease or strip aerobics. And you know, I am skeptical 13 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: still even after reading all the stuff we've read. But 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: the people who do it seriously are freaking ripped. Yeah, 15 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,639 Speaker 1: well this is with this is with strippers. I saying, Yeah, 16 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: the cardio strip tease, which is basically a combination of 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: yoga moves plus some step aerobics. Put, well, this is different. Well, 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: this is different from pole fitness. Stripper sizing is where 19 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: it's more focused on taking your clothes off while burning calories, 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: as opposed to pole dancing, in which you leave your 21 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: clothes on while burning calories. There may or may not 22 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: be a pole involved. And this became pretty popular. Um yeah, 23 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: it offered at Crunch fitness gyms, for instance, because Carmen 24 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: Electra put out Aerobic Strip Tease, and of course, you know, 25 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: the Internet media being what it is, I was like, 26 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: oh wow, that's right. A million articles about it. And 27 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: then Sheila Kelly published a book called The s Factor 28 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: Strip Workouts for every Woman, and she went on this 29 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: whole media circuit and was always talking about how it 30 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: revolutionized not only her fitness, but also reinvigorated her marriage. 31 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: She's a mother of two, and that it's not this 32 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,399 Speaker 1: super sexual thing, it's just a liberating, fun workout. But 33 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: in reading and I totally, yes, I totally buy into that. 34 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: I yes, okay, but when I read quotes like this, 35 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: it makes me go seriously. So, Sheila Kelly was interviewed 36 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: by web MD in their article about super sizing and 37 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,839 Speaker 1: pull dancing classes and things like that, because Kelly does 38 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: teach some pole dancing classes and the quote that I 39 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: I pulled was I began moving and in that instant 40 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: something switched on in me. I was moving without a 41 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: moment's forethought or self consciousness. My body became like a 42 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: river of sinew and muscle and raw energy. I allowed 43 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: the music to curve and shape me with its wave. 44 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: But Caroline, that's how I felt the first time I 45 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: did Tibo. Should we be so skeptical? Uh No? Yeah? 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: That that is one one common thing when when you 47 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: hear interviews with people who are very much into either 48 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: strip cardio fitness or what we're gonna talk focus more 49 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: on in the podcast, which is pole dancing as exercise 50 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: and yes, as sports. That a lot of the women 51 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: who and men who practice this feel very strongly about 52 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: these moves and how it makes their their body feel well. 53 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: For sure, because you have to put so much strength 54 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 1: and flexibility into hoisting yourself up on these poles. And 55 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people who do the flag, which is 56 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: using their arm muscles to shoot their body straight out 57 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: to the side. I mean they had serious stuff. Yeah. 58 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: Moving on from the cardio strip fitness to something more intense, 59 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: which is a straight up pole dancing fitness. It does 60 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: require a lot of athleticism and it has become pretty popular. 61 00:03:54,720 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: According to American Fitness magazine from their May June issue. 62 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: Is Showfeld, who's a studio owner and founder of the 63 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: Pole Fitness Association, says that the industry has grown three 64 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: over the past couple of years, and she says that 65 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: there are over twelve hundred pole fitness studios around the world. 66 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: This is not just an American centric fitness trend. This 67 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: is something going on everywhere. And again, this is distinct 68 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: from quote unquote stripper sizing to to pull fitness. Think 69 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: about pole dancing that you might witness that, Yes, a 70 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: strip club taken to the gym, right, it's all tough. 71 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: It's like stripping on steroids. But there's a there's a 72 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: stripping involved. Okay, it's like it's like the strip club. 73 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: It's not. Now, I don't know, I'm losing my metaphors here, um, 74 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: but it it has a very interesting history if we 75 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: want to get into a little bit of that. H 76 00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily a modern invention swinging around a pole. No, no, 77 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: this is actually the pole dancing that we think of 78 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: now is a fusion of Chinese and Indian pole and 79 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: this was coming from like circus culture, traveling fairs and 80 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: also in more recent history exotic dance, of course, and 81 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: the International Pole Dance Fitness Association offered a pretty comprehensive 82 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: history of it, and they talk about how with the 83 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: Chinese pole tradition it dates back to around the twelfth 84 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: century with circus performers who would move around the pole 85 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: and they would uh the poles we wrapped in rubber 86 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: for grip. But also as you can imagine, going around 87 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: poles and moving around it, it would cause burn marks 88 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: on their on their skin, but the burn marks are 89 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: actually signs of respect, like of toughness. Interesting. Yeah, I 90 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: wonder if people would ever try to get those burn 91 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: marks in other ways to be like, no, I'm I'm 92 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: totally a pole guy. I'm on the pole all the time. Um. 93 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: A lot of their tricks, a lot of the traditional 94 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: Chinese these pole tricks are actually still used in things 95 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: like circusla, which I actually just saw recently with my 96 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: parents and it is crazy. Yeah, yeah, all the things 97 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: they do. They get up on the pole and the 98 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: whole audience is like, oh, I don't want to have 99 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: to catch you. Yeah. I want to know if the 100 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: average circus performer's spine is somehow like different genetically different 101 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: from other people I just just made of rubber. Yeah, 102 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: it's amazing. There's also Indian pole a k a. Someone 103 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: correct me if I'm mispronouncing this Mala CaMLA cam okay. Well, 104 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: that also dates backed around the twelfth century, but it 105 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: didn't really become common until the nineteenth century, and it 106 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: was intended not you know, on its own merit to 107 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: just get on the pole and have a good time. 108 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: It was intended as a way for wrestlers to train. 109 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 1: It was a competitive sport at the time, using a 110 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: smooth wooden pole, and it was used to develop speed, reflexes, concentration, 111 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: and coordination, all things of course that you would have 112 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: to develop if you're trying to keep your body up 113 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: on a pole during those crazy poses. But today they 114 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 1: have national in India, they have national championships involving fourteen states. 115 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: But it is an exclusively male sport. And I gotta 116 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: say go on the internet and check out videos of 117 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: this because it is pretty impressive, especially when you see 118 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: these young boys like literally just dancing around the pole, 119 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: hopping all around and doing all sorts of tricks. It 120 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: is very impressive. But if we move from circus sport 121 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: into strip tease, there's still a pretty rich history. We 122 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: go back to ancient mythology. There is a Sumerian goddess 123 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: of love named a Nana who would dance and remove 124 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: one item of clothing or jewelry at each of the 125 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: seven gates on the way to find her lover, and 126 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: thus we have the dance of the Seven Veils. Yeah, 127 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: there's also an Assyrian Babylonian myth that's very similar to 128 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: that Sumerian myth and the goddess I think her name 129 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: starts with an I too. It's very interesting how all 130 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: of this mythology ties them together. Moving forward to combining 131 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: the whole, you know, seductive dance. There we have the 132 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: Mulan rouge belly dancers, Latin dancing and Depression era traveling 133 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: fairs are cited as sort of a beginning for the 134 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: modern pole dance, where you know, they'd set up a 135 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: tent and the pole that holds the tent up. That's dancers. 136 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: Would you know, dance around that? Yeah, speaking of dancing 137 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: around the pole, there have been some sources we ran 138 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: across that we're trying to link it to the may 139 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: pole tradition, you know of kids grabbing the ribbons and 140 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: going around the may pole. I believe that's separate from 141 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: this kind of pole of sport and then moving to 142 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: strip tease because it's you know, obviously a um, a 143 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: mix of all of these different elements. UM. But the 144 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: hoochie COOCHI dancers first originated at the Philadelphia Centennial Exhibition 145 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventies six. And you combine the hoochie coochie 146 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: dancers with that travel ling fair pole dancing, and we have, 147 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: you know, the more erotic kind of pole dancing that 148 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: we might think of immediately today before we think of 149 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: fitness classes. And in nineteen sixty eight, Oregonian listeners, here's 150 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: one for you. One of the earliest recorded pole dances 151 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: at a strip club I believe was happened in Oregon 152 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: of that year. And then the pole dance craze really 153 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: kicked off in Canada in the nineteen eighties. Canadians, what's up? 154 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: Who knew? Well? Speaking of crazes, Kristen sent me a 155 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: link to a very interesting trend, which is pole dancing. 156 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: For Jesus, Yeah, this is uh. It was a New 157 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: York Times story about this woman who used to be 158 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: a stripper and she would dance on the pole and 159 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: all this. But then she converted to Christianity, but she 160 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: wanted to teach women in her church these pole moves 161 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: that she knew, because I mean, obviously it requires a 162 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: lot of muscular strength and all of that, and so 163 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: she would she would teach classes at the church and 164 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: of course poll dancing for Jesus. That's that's a funny 165 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: little phrase to say, because how how could you possibly 166 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: meld the two? Um? But uh, it didn't take that 167 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: long from the pole dance craze to supposedly starting Canada 168 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, to translate into the fitness realm. 169 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 1: In fact, Fania Dietrich is the first person at least 170 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: known to teach a pole fitness class. So we have 171 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: now moved from the hoochie coochie to the strip club 172 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: poll dancing to pole dancing outside the strip club in 173 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: fitness clubs and or for Jesus, and or for Jesus. Um, well, 174 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: you know, we we did mention that we're going to 175 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: get to how this is a serious sport people, pole 176 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: pole dancing, the pole being on the pole. You have 177 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: to have a lot of fitness to be able to 178 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: do this. Uh. BuzzFeed in July had an article about 179 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: this and about how pole dancing associations and groups really 180 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: want to go to the next Olympics. One of the dancers, 181 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: Katie Coats, started a petition to get pole dancing in 182 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: the Olympics, which caught the attention of software analyst Timothy Troutman, 183 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: who then went on to found the International Poll Sports Federation. 184 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: He said that he's watched it become very popular. He says, 185 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: first it was housewives, think hey guys and straight guys, 186 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: and now even kids do it. Yeah, there was some 187 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: internet hubbub that was sparked about a class for pole 188 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,599 Speaker 1: dancing that was geared towards kids, called the Little Spinners. 189 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: But I mean, you could still argue though all these 190 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: women who are and yes there are some men as 191 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: well who were doing the pole fitness say no, it's 192 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: seriously a very good workout. And if you watch these 193 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: videos of the women doing these pole dances. For instance, 194 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: Katie Coates had a video of her doing a Swan 195 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: Lake performance on the Poll that went viral online and 196 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: helped raise the profile of it as a sport aside 197 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: outside of a stripping. And it's incredible just the fact 198 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: that they can The upper body strength required is phenomenal 199 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,599 Speaker 1: and Troutman, the guy who started the International Poll Sports Federation, 200 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: says that the interest has doubled over the past six 201 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: or so years, and they also organized the first World 202 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: Poll Sport Championship, which took place days before the London 203 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: Olympics UH in hopes of getting the io c's attention 204 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: with it, and dancers from twenty six countries competed in 205 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: that so you could there there's a decent argument out 206 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: there that pole dancing should be recognized as a sport, 207 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: but in order for the IOC to really give it 208 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: a serious look, it has to be something internationally recognized. 209 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: And as you can imagine, when we think of pole 210 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 1: dancing even still, fitness is probably not the first thing 211 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: that comes to mind. Well, proponents argue that like, okay, 212 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: well you have a gymnast who's up on a balance beam, 213 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,119 Speaker 1: why can't you just take the pole from being horizontal 214 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: to vertical, right and and do you know acrobatics or 215 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: gymnastics on it that way and miss pole dance. Felix 216 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: Crane was one of those people who was making an 217 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: argument for Olympic inclusion. In a column on ESPN in August, 218 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: she said that, you know, pole dancing can be performed 219 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: too extremely high athletic standards. You need extreme strength, flexibility 220 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: and control to be able to do this stuff. So 221 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: you know, we're athletes to let us compete. And plus 222 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: you do have to sort of go back to that 223 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: history of the poll I think to remember, like, Okay, 224 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: this was like an ancient athletic pre actus that people did, 225 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: and they were really respected for it. It just became 226 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: a very sexual thing, right, I mean, and I'll go 227 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: ahead and say that I could still have respect for 228 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: the athleticism of strippers who are getting on those poles 229 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: and spinning around and doing some pretty incredible feats that 230 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: my body in its condition right now would not be 231 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: able to do. I don't know. I'm day three of 232 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: couch to five K. Baby, Just let me loose. You're 233 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: ready to go? Yeah? And Crane also speaking of the athleticism, 234 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: though just as an example, she's also a circus delay performer. 235 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: You know, so when you get to that level of 236 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: the sport, these women are doing much more than just 237 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: you know, spinning around a pole haphazardly. As I would be. 238 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure I wouldn't be spinning around, and I'd be 239 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: on the floor crying because I would have fallen hurt myself. Well, Caroline, though, 240 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: what about men who are involved in pole dancing? Because 241 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: this is not just for women, even though it is 242 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: dominated not surprisingly by women. Yeah, there's a there's a 243 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: big effort by a lot of men to break into 244 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: this sport that is seen as as female dominated. There 245 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: was an article in the Wall Street Journal and back 246 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: in October there were seven male performers at the World 247 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: pole Dance Finals in Budapest that year compared to thirty 248 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: nine women, and a quote from Frenchman Cheme Martinez I 249 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: think sums that. He says, people say it's hard for 250 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: women in a man's world, Well, it's hard to be 251 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: a man in this woman's world. And I'm not going 252 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: to roll my eyes. Well, I mean it is a 253 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: couple of them were talking about how if they're out 254 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: at a bar, say and there is a poll there, say, 255 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: and if one of their female friends who's into pole dancing, 256 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: hops up and it everyone's like yeah. But as soon 257 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: as a guy hops up on the pole and starts 258 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: spinning around, people are like whoa, yeah, what whoa? You 259 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: are really you're I don't. I don't know about that 260 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: and um poll. Dancing for Dudes actually saw an uptick 261 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: in popularity after Jude Law told in British tabloid that 262 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: he and Clive Owen took pole dancing fitness classes to 263 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: get in shape for the movie Closer. Yeah, which does 264 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: feature scenes in a strip club. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. 265 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: Everbody's like, oh, well, I guess I don't know why 266 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: Jude Law is the impetus for all of that. Well, 267 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: because it gives some kind of validation of saying, oh, well, 268 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, you can still be this masculine, handsome man 269 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: that women are sexually attracted to and get on the pole. 270 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: Here you go. Well, some, you know, some men who 271 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: participate in this say that women are not very welcoming. 272 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: Timber Brown, who's the son of a marine who had 273 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: gone to the police academy and quit to be a 274 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: professional dancer, said subconsciously they don't want men because it's 275 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: something that of theirs that they can hold on too, 276 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: literally literally and figuratively. Yeah. Australian Maddie Shields said it's 277 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: been a fight for equality and tonight we struck a blow. 278 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: You go, men, I mean that Instagram. I mean, I can, 279 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: I can understand like you can. You can play the 280 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: you know, both sides and say, well, what would we 281 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: say are e title nine? You know, shouldn't the old 282 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: men deserve to get on the pole as much as 283 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: they as women do. Although I could see how having 284 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: mixed competitions would be difficult to judge because of like 285 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: biological discrepancies and upper body strength between men and women, 286 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: it seems like women might be at a slight disadvantage. 287 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: But the women still beat those seven male performers at 288 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: the World Pole Dance Finals. Yeah. Well. One one dude 289 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 1: who had a similar experience to what I believe I 290 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: would have if I tried to get on the pole 291 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: was a BBC reporter, Sharag Trivetti, who tried it out 292 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: in March two thousand five, and he said that it 293 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: felt like a total role reversal of the times that 294 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: he's been to strip clubs, because he said, you know, 295 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: women are watching him do it and fail, and they're 296 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: taking pictures, and he realized just how physically demand ending 297 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: it is to get up on that pole and spin 298 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: around and do all these dances. And his teacher said 299 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: that it's not only a new way of exercising, but 300 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: a new way of thinking, because you really have to 301 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: train your body to do some pretty crazy things that 302 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: you don't think you'll be able to do. Yeah, I 303 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: mean the idea of getting up on the pole and 304 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: then like releasing my upper body while just my legs 305 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: are holding on. I I can't imagine that I'm too 306 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: too nervous to do a headstand in my yoga class. 307 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,199 Speaker 1: I don't know that I could. I don't know that 308 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: I could brave the pole. Um. But speaking of braving 309 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: the poll, uh, there is the whole question of well, 310 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: is this not just some kind of you know, erotic 311 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: thing that we're doing that eventually just feeds back into 312 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: this whole like portification of the culturest Some might and 313 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: have said, of course, there is a feminist spin to this. 314 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: And we did find a pay paper analyzing pole dancing 315 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: as fitness and the paper was Empowerment in the Poll, 316 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: a Discursive Investigation of the reinvention of pole Dancing as 317 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: a Recreational activity, published in the Journal Feminism and Psychology 318 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine. And what the researchers did was 319 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: talked to some pole fitness instructors, some pole fitness class 320 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: attendees who went all the time, some who just did 321 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: a drop in class, and then uh, male observers and 322 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: other women who hadn't taken any classes to compare how 323 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: the level of experience jived with whether they thought that 324 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: it was a good or bad thing for women, Right, Yeah, 325 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: just the whole argument of like, are you doing it 326 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 1: because it's part of the patriarchy and for the male gaze, 327 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: or are you doing it because it's okay in the culture. 328 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 1: Are you doing it because it's personally liberating? And they 329 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: argue that there's a certain framework that because of pornografication 330 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: there I said, it of our culture, that it's more 331 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: acceptable in this period in history to be able to 332 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,239 Speaker 1: do things like that. And then you know, maybe if 333 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: this were a different time in history, all these women 334 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: would be called sluts. And one of the conversations that 335 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: that comes up a lot in this paper is the 336 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 1: idea of the quote unquote raunch culture. And you can 337 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: read more about this in Ariel Levies book Female Chauvinist 338 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: Pigs if you're curious about that um And it's this 339 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: whole idea that women must now also be considered sexy 340 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: and comfortable with an open, exhibitionist sexuality that by like 341 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: pretty much anything is game. You know, you wear your 342 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: crop top Playboy brand T shirt and that is your 343 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: form of sexual liberation. Or Girls Gone Wild is just 344 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,719 Speaker 1: a form of sexual liberation because we can just be open. 345 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: But at the same time they would argue that that's 346 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: not empowerment, that's just portification and insolved, feeding into this 347 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: nasty kind of hyper sexual culture. It's not really doing 348 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: anybody any good. Yeah, And they asked all those participants, um, 349 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: you know, how how it was framed in their minds, 350 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: what they thought of it. Um. So there there are 351 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: three three areas here where it's number one, it's framed 352 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: as fun and our fitness, And in this regard it 353 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: can be empowering based on context. So as in fitness 354 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: it's empowering. You're doing it to get in shape, So 355 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: that's empowering, not stripping. That's not empowering to these people 356 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: who participated, same same token. If it's fun, then it 357 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: can't be degrading. I I'm choosing to do it because 358 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: it's fun and I can get in shape. Therefore I'm 359 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: not being degraded. There's also the whole issue of money exchange. 360 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: So they said that monetary exchange delineates between empowering and 361 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: disempowering positions, So you're in control when you're the one 362 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: paying to take the class to learn to be a 363 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: poll d answer. And there's also the issue of the 364 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: mail gaze. It depends on whether you're performing for a 365 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: partner or a stranger. And as you can expect, they 366 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: said that performing it willingly for a loving partner was 367 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: empowering and fun versus what they considered to be not 368 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: as empowering if you're a stripper doing it for strangers. 369 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: And I think that says so much about how we 370 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: view uh, the you could say sex to work as 371 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: a whole, but in this instance stripping and that whole 372 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: issue of the money exchange, because I'll tell you right now, 373 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 1: there are plenty of strippers who will say that the 374 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: opposite is true, that the fact that they are receiving 375 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: money for getting up on that poll and dancing for 376 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: the mail gays is a form of empowerment. That they 377 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: know exactly what they're doing, that they're making a living 378 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: off of that, and whether or not you are okay 379 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: with the way that they're making that money, it doesn't matter. 380 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: Um so it's uh, it's interesting that we aren't so 381 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: scared of getting up been doing the exact same moves 382 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: on the pole as long as our clothes are on, 383 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: even though with a pole fitness stancing you can't wear 384 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,239 Speaker 1: many clothes at all because of fiction and right, Uh so, 385 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: as long as your your breasts and your vagina are 386 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: covered up and no one's throwing dollar bills in your face, 387 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: then it's empowering. So why why is that you know 388 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: a difference if it's outside of the strip cluver inside 389 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: and I I'm not arguing one way or the other. 390 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: I just think it's I think it says a lot 391 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: about our culture to where maybe we aren't as sexually 392 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: liberated as we would like to be, and maybe there 393 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: is a bit of a double standard there. But I 394 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: think what we can both agree on, though, Caroline, is 395 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: that well, cardio stripped strip tease, and there I've even 396 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: seen there was the newest thing which was stripping cardio 397 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: strip teas in high heels. I would I would kill myself, 398 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: I would trip and break my neck. I would. It's 399 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: just not good for you. Working on stilettos is not 400 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: is not very good for you. Um that I I 401 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: also raised a skeptical eyebrow at because it's like, at 402 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: that point, it's like, just you can just do yoga 403 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: or just do aerobics. But I think you and I 404 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: can both agree that poll dancing absolutely is an athletic endeavor. Yeah, 405 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: if you want proof, google it. Look at pictures of 406 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: those people. They have like seven teen pack ads. I 407 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: don't know where that extra one came from, but they 408 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: have a lot. Yeah, and that goes for whether or 409 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: not it's in the context of a strip club or 410 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: a fitness club. But obviously the level of respect for 411 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: it does shift. So I'm wondering if there are any 412 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 1: poll fitness instructors or pull fitness enthusiasts who are listening 413 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: to this, because I'm sure that if you and I 414 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: were to start taking pole fitness classes and you know, 415 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: we casually dropped that in conversation Shan, people would look askance. 416 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: I think it would also be like, especially if it 417 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: were in mixed company. I think dudes would be like hey, ladies, well, 418 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: or people would immediately question your motivation for it, saying well, 419 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: why why do you need to why do you need 420 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: to work out all sexy like that. Why don't you 421 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: just come to zoom ba with me? I'm sexy all 422 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: the time, even at yoga, in my private yoga class, 423 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: I'm like, sorry, just let me take me feel of 424 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: off still, let o yoga. That's the next trend that 425 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: we will start. Surprisingly doesn't help you touch you tose. 426 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: I want to start like a like bathroom bathrobe trends 427 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: like bathrobe yoga, bathrobe jogging. Let's integrate more bathroobes into 428 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: our our leisure activities. That's all I have to say. Um, 429 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: So we want to know from you, though it does? 430 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: Does the context matter? Is it? Is it double standard 431 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: that we can respect it outside the strip club inside 432 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: the script strip club women are just victims to everything 433 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: terrible about gendered culture. Let us know all of your 434 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,479 Speaker 1: thoughts about pole dancing and and especially yeah if you 435 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 1: if you do it in any context, we want to 436 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: hear from you. Mom. Stuff at Discovery dot com is 437 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: where you can send your letters. Well, I've got a 438 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: couple of letters here in response to our episode on 439 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: p d A Public Displays of Affection, and these were 440 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: specifically from our LGBT listeners because we dedicated that episode 441 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: two to those fine folks, and so Gretchen Rights. I'm 442 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: twenty two in a lesbian engaged to my twenty four 443 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: year old bisexual female fight fiance. We're in law school. 444 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: I'm in Minneapolis, and she's an Indian and near Chicago 445 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: and works in the city. P d A really depends 446 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: on the situation. I'm more confident and don't even notice 447 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: the stairs, but she came out to be with me 448 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: in her areas more conserved except for where when we're 449 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: in Chicago for trips or her work, so it's more 450 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: difficult for her. So she goes on to talk about 451 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: how there are are differences in the kinds of PDA 452 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: that they're um okay showing depending on where they are. 453 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: For instance, she writes, when she'd seen me in Minneapolis, 454 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: we were freer. The best thing was going to a 455 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: cocktail party my school's l g PT organization put on. 456 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: I've also felt that fall that p d A was political, 457 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: since Minnesota had a marriage amendment on our ballot that election. 458 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: We should be able to feel comfortable in any situation, 459 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: and the amendments defeat helped that. Being in different situations 460 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: like this has shown me the differences and attitudes seem 461 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: mainly geographic, urban versus suburban slash rural, age based younger 462 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: people are more likely to smile than stare or comment, 463 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: and politically based liberal versus conservative. Things have really been 464 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: going our way lately with marriage, Obama statements, and other protections. 465 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: I hope they keep changing so day we don't have 466 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: to think about how we show affection. So thanks, Gretchen, 467 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: and I have one from Ray, She says. Firstly, I 468 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: want to thank you so much for doing an episode 469 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: with significant research data for the LGBT community. I'm a 470 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: huge fan of your podcast and of any and all 471 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: discussion about gender in the world today, but I am 472 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: frequently disappointed, as I know you are, by the lack 473 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: of research regarding queer individuals. Secondly, I just wanted to 474 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: respond personally to the PDA episode. I'm a lady married 475 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: to a lady, and we were married in California right 476 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: before Prop eight swooped in and ruined everybody's fun. My 477 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,199 Speaker 1: wife and I made a resolution very early on in 478 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: our marriage to never hide our relationship with one another 479 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: and to treat each other the same way, regardless of location, company, 480 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: or surroundings. We had met at a conservative religious university 481 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: and had been forced to hide our relationship while there. 482 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: It had been terrible for us and we resolved to 483 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: never go back. That being said, while we are certainly 484 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: never sucking face or going to town in public, we 485 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: do often hold hands and will exchange a quick kiss 486 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,959 Speaker 1: on occasion. We have definitely had a variety of response 487 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: and sometimes it can be very scary in certain environments. 488 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: It can be very surreal to be holding your lover's 489 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: hand in one hand and have your other hand on 490 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: emergency speed dial. The uproar and ugly controversy surrounding Prop 491 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: eight is at the beginning of our life together certainly 492 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: had a deep and irreversible impact on our relationship and 493 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: how we view ourselves in the world. However, has it 494 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: has been our experience that things are getting better and better, 495 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: and we know that LGBT people before us made incredible 496 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: sacrifices to help us get to this point, despite possible 497 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: discomfort or even danger. My wife and I hope that 498 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: we can further help society accept people like us to 499 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: the next generation doesn't have to worry about it. It 500 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: is personal and it is political. So thank you, Ray, 501 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: and thanks to everyone who has written into us mom 502 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: Stuff at Discovery dot com keep your letters coming. You 503 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: can also find us on Facebook and send us a 504 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: message there or leave a comment. You can also follow 505 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: us on Twitter, tweeters at Mom's Stuff podcast, and we're 506 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: on Tumblr as well. It's stuff Mom Never Told You 507 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: dot com And if you want to get smarter this week, 508 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: you should head over to our website It's how Stuff 509 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: Works dot com for more on this and thousands of 510 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com