1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should Know from House Stuff Works 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and we have a very 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: special treat for everyone out there for your ears. Casey 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: are video video producer extraordinaire is standing in as our 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: podcast producer, so he basically is in charge of us 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: in every way, shape and form. Right now, that's right. 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: I I realized Chuck that, um, you're just doing vocal fry. 9 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: I have no ear for it. Yeah, you know, before 10 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: Casey we asked him to choose which one to do first, 11 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: any with vocal fry, and I didn't even notice. Yeah, 12 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: you got the fry filter. Do you think that means 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: that I do it? Because I was trying to think. 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: I know that I up speak sometimes they're up talk, 15 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: but it's fairly infrequent. I think, yeah, and um, but 16 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: I don't know if I like vocal fire or not. 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: I have no idea whatsoever. I don't know. Did I 18 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: just do it? Just now? I did? Didn't I? I 19 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: don't know. We'll have to listen to the playback. I 20 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: guess I just did it. Listen to the playback that 21 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: sounds like normal speaking to me. I know, man, huh, 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: because well, we'll get into this, but it's uh. A 23 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: lot of people contend that there's a lot of sexism 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: going on with it because I just said it, and 25 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: people probably won't write in and say anything about it. 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: But or a woman, people would probably write in and 27 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: say the way you talk is so annoying. And you 28 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: know what, I think like a lot of people are 29 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: trying to dance around this or prove that it's sexist. 30 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: It's like, no, on its face, this is a sexist 31 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: argument that's going on right now. Yeah, I mean, just 32 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: look around. We had Tracy and Hollyan recently and they 33 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: talked about emails that they get about their voices being shrill. 34 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: And I remember other podcast esters here we had in 35 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: the past. Other women who had podcasts would get just 36 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: lots of email detailing the quality of their voice, and 37 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: we don't really get those much occasionally. I guess. No, 38 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: you want to have some fun, go on to iTunes 39 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: and find a podcast that is hosted by women and 40 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 1: read the reviews, and then go read the reviews for 41 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: a podcast that's hosted by men. It's yeah, it is. 42 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: And when somebody like Bob Garfield from MPR calls the 43 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: calls vocal fry repulsive. That's a really good point for 44 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: everyone else to stand back and be like, what's this 45 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: guy's real problem, because repulsive is not a correct word 46 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: to use to describe vocal fry. It's wrong. It's it's wrong. 47 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: It's like it's like he's pointing at something else, but 48 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: he thinks he's pointing at the vocal fry. Who knows 49 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: what's going on, but yes, on its face, it's a 50 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: misogynistic argument. That's that's being carried out, putting out there 51 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: right now. I don't plan on dancing around it at all. 52 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: We're not dancing. Uh. And it is all very ironic 53 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: considering that vocal fry can be traced back to British 54 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: men in the nineteen sixties. Yeah, I mean think about 55 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: like Sean Connery. Okay, I'm thinking about him. Okay, that 56 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: was it had nothing to do with vocal I just 57 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: wanted to see if I get you to think about 58 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: Sean Conner. Well, apparently they traced it back to sixty 59 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: four when British men the mid sixties used it to 60 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: denote superior social standing. And I think I'm trying to 61 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: imagine my head and I think it's like, you know, 62 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: you shall not question me like that kind of thing. Yeah, 63 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: like its masculinity and uh an into a statement by 64 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: lowering your voice fry. It sounded like Welliam Randolph Hurst 65 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: by the way, a lot like that. But but it 66 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: makes sense also it basically when you hear vocal fry, 67 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: it is and will tell you exactly what it is 68 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: in a second, but you know what it is. Um, 69 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: when you hear vocal fry, it denotes that you can't 70 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: be bothered, to be enthusiastic about it, or in the 71 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: case of British, another way to put it is it's 72 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: very dry way, yeah, kind of you know. Um and 73 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: they they say they linguists. Vocal fry and its current 74 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: use among younger girls or millennials in general, is a 75 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: way to indicate like I'm over it, or I am 76 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: not to be bothered with this any longer, or in 77 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: some cases it makes them seem authoritative. We'll get more 78 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: into that. So in other words, it doesn't mean they're 79 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: dumb and don't know how to talk correctly. They're actually 80 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: trying to accomplish something, but speaking in a certain way 81 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: like every other human on earth exactly. I just did 82 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,239 Speaker 1: it again. This is really gonna make me look at myself, 83 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: I think, I think, I I think, well, actually, let's 84 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: talk about up speak. This is gonna be all this 85 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: is vocal fry, it's up speak. It's using the word 86 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: like all these vocal mannerisms and ticks maybe that people 87 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: have these days because language changes and evolves. We don't 88 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: talk like we did sixty years ago. No, like, for example, 89 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: the mid Atlantic accent is gone. What was that? That 90 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: was the radio announcer. Yeah, that was kind of No, 91 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: not really, I think that was the antithesis of it. 92 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: It was more like, um, all right, uh, George Plimpton, 93 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: Frasier Crane, Mr Burns. It's like it's like the difference 94 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: is split between British and you know, um, Eastern American. 95 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: I thought you were just naming old white dudes kind of. 96 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: But I mean, it was the language of the aristocracy 97 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: in the first half of the twentieth century, right, it 98 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: is gone now. And they think that it was basically 99 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: run out by guys like Jimmy Cagney and yeah and um, 100 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: Marlon Brando, and that the way that they talked was 101 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: not like that, and they made their style of talking, 102 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: which is how we talk now. We're like super Brando 103 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: now right, Uh is a result of mid Atlantic going 104 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: away being replaced by this Well, well, it's not really 105 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: my theory. I'm sure there are a lot of people 106 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: that agree. I think that language does evolve, and that 107 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: the people that the Garfields of the world, the Bob Garfields, 108 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: not the cat Garfields. It's like, don't dray Garfield. And uh. 109 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: The ones who rail against it so much, I think 110 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: are like see and say like a lot too. But 111 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: people it we also say, um, I get called out 112 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: for saying um, yeah, I get it. It's fine. I 113 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: think though, you go ahead. And so I think those 114 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: people are just they're feeling like they're not relevant any longer, 115 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: and no one wants to be a dinosaur. And so 116 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: I don't understand the language these young women are speaking, 117 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: which is bs because a lot of younger people, men 118 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: and women speak that way. It's just called the way 119 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: the younger generation speaks. And it's not like you, old man, right, 120 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: so just go off to pasture, which is not the case. 121 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody's trying to make this the older 122 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: middle aged white man feel irrelevant. We haven't. We're on 123 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: our way there anyway, and I feel irrelevant. But it 124 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with up speak or vocal fry. 125 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: It's the music these kids are listening to these days. 126 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: But I think I think you have nailed it on 127 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: the head though, like like, it is a form of 128 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: contempt for being replaced by something new, something that's different. 129 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: And as we'll see, especially when it comes to linguistics, UM, 130 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: younger girls tend to be at the bleeding edge of 131 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: linguistic changes. So UM the perhaps and this is all 132 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: we want to just make sure you guys understand that 133 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: we understand this total pop psychology on our part. But 134 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: it's also it's intuitive, it makes a lot of sense. 135 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,559 Speaker 1: But the idea that UM, older middle aged white men 136 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: who are threatened by vocal fry or find it repulsive 137 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: or pugnant or whatever, UM, they are projecting their their 138 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: sense of being replaced, of being irrelevant, being put out 139 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: to pasture. I agree wholeheartedly. I think that's exactly what. 140 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: There's not enough to control the free world for since 141 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: the beginning of time, right which the fact that they 142 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: do is still UM says that's the reason why we're 143 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: even having this conversation. That's the reason why some women 144 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: find the need to go to speech therapists to get 145 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: rid of their vocal fry, which is something that some 146 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: even podcasters have done. All right, so let's talk up 147 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: talk real quick, up talk or valley girls speak as 148 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: when you in a sentence, UM as if you're asking 149 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: a question like that, and that has been a thing 150 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: for a long time. Um, there was a first of all. Two, 151 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: we should point out that most of the studies we're 152 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: gonna put in here, terrible social psychology studies funk, almost 153 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: all of them, well because they just they never do 154 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: it right. You could do some decent studies on this, 155 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,239 Speaker 1: I think, but for instance, this one uh at California, 156 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: San Diego, they did a close acoustical analysis of twenty 157 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: three Southern Californians perfect sample size. Yeah, two didn't show 158 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: up from very diverse backgrounds. Apparently, I don't know how 159 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: diverse you can get among twenty three people. But they said, 160 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: here you have two tasks. UM, give directions with a 161 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: map and then describe a sitcom clip. And they found 162 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: that UM, women did use up talk twice as often 163 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: as men. But UM in making declarative statements like my 164 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: appointment is at nine o'clock. Men and women, um use 165 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: rises the same, So like basically men did the same 166 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: thing with that kind of statement. And then the other 167 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: one that makes sense to me is when giving directions. 168 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: A lot of people use up talk because it's you're 169 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: sort of asking a question, like, you know, go up 170 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: to the McDonald's a memorial drive. It's basically saying, do 171 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: you understand what I'm saying? Are you following me? Yeah? 172 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: It's almost it's funny. I wondered this chuck about up 173 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:07,599 Speaker 1: talking in particular. Um is it? Is it like a 174 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: way of kind of in inadvertently mocking your listener, Like 175 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: men trail off very frequently when women start talking. So 176 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: if women evolved to basically keep men engaged at the 177 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: end of each sentence, like yeah, are you still with me? 178 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: Do I have to keep leaving you along by the 179 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: hand in this conversation where you know, if that's where 180 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: it originally came from. Place holding or floor holding is 181 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: another reason they found that women use up talk because 182 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: they want to give um the listener the idea that 183 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: they're not done talking yet, don't interrupt me, And it 184 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: might make sense maybe women are interrupted more than men. Oh, 185 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: I would say that's a distinct possibility. Um, there's been 186 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: a bit of a linguistic trace to this whole thing, 187 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: to up speak, in particular vocal fry. I couldn't find, 188 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: you know where they think the origin of it was, 189 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: But with ups there was a UM I believe. She 190 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: was a linguist named Cynthia Macklemore back in University of 191 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: Texas in Austin UM. She studied a sorority house on 192 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: campus there and was the first person to detect up speak, 193 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: which became known as or which was already I guess 194 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: known as as Valley girl. But she she didn't coin 195 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: the term up speak, but she was the first to 196 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: think to really study it. UM. And then a guy 197 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: named James Gorman coined the term up speak in like 198 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: two years later. But maclemore traced in this UM sorority 199 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: house the origin of the up speak to the very 200 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 1: popular girls from l A. Although you canna say to 201 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: one sorority sister, no, I'm I'm wondering though, if there 202 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: is this, like a patient zero of this in the 203 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: United States. UM, back in l A, there's the Valley 204 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: girl talk that is clearly related to up speak, right, 205 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: and that movie was huge, right, so back in the sixties, 206 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: they've traced it back to Australia or New Zealand. So 207 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: it is possible, this is my own pet theory here 208 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: that some very popular girl moved from Australia or New 209 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: Zealand to Los Angeles, wowed her friends. We started emulating 210 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: the way she talked, which is up speak, and it's 211 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: spread from there. You know. Now they think about the 212 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: Australian accent. It is sort of up speaking, isn't it. Yeah, 213 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, they're like because there's like basically 214 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: like you're getting like hitting the ribs with their elbow 215 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: just from the way they're talking, Like, yeah, you're following along. Yeah, yeah, 216 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: it's very interesting. So let's let's take a break, man, 217 00:12:39,720 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: take a break man. Yeah, okay, alright, we're back. This 218 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: stuff fascinates me. By the way, I could I could 219 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: be a linguist. I could study linguistics and be a 220 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: linguistics researcher and specialist linguists I like linguistic or linguistic. 221 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: Yeah sure, if you're a year old girl, that would 222 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: be a widespread word twenty years from now, right, and 223 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: people like Bob Garfield would say, we remember when we 224 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: called it all right, So specifically, let's just talk about 225 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: the what vocal for I actually is in the throat. 226 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: Um glottalization is probably the more scientific term, and what 227 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: it is. It's a it's a vibration when your voice 228 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: falls and your vocal cords flutter very slowly, um, because 229 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: they can't make the A tone any longer at that register. Right, 230 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: It's called chaotic flapping, right, chaotic glottal flapping. I like it, yeah, 231 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: And it sounds like it would hurt, but it actually doesn't, 232 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: except although I think most um, your nose and throat 233 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: guys will tell you that, um, if you did this 234 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: in a sustained manner yelling for a while, yeah, you 235 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: could damage your vocal yell a vocal Friday, I guess 236 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: he almost tried. I didn't. I was like, I'm not 237 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: doing that, yeah, because I associate it with falling off 238 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: of a sentence and not being right, you know, which 239 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: is where it's usually placed these days. But this the 240 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: author of this article on Husta, first Voice and current 241 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: there's become the grabster of late Oh yeah, yeah, the 242 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: modern times grabster. Oh boy, Well, no, grabs are still 243 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: a legend. Yeah, I'm just saying this person who stepped 244 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: in to fill in the void a little bit. Well, 245 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: let me say too quickly that I'm doing nothing but 246 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: listening to my voice right now, and I can't imagine 247 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: what it's like to constantly be worried about that because 248 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: usually we come in here and so safe haven. I 249 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: don't think twice a about how I sound, they sound 250 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: how I sound, But just like put yourself into the 251 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: microscope like that, which is I think a lot of 252 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: women in broadcasting probably like suffer from that. I just 253 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: said like like five times, you know, but I don't 254 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: care who cares. You're a man, You're white man ag 255 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: eighteen forty nine. Yeah, still under forty nine. Yeah. Is 256 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: that the cut off point? Then I'll become Bob Garfield? 257 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: Oh man, Garfield's gonna hate this for this. Uh So 258 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: Garfield is not the only one. There are plenty of 259 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: women out there calling out younger women saying it's a 260 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: disempowering act to speak like this. Um Naomi Wolf is 261 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: one of them. She wrote an article that I read, 262 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: and she said it projects uncertainty and weakness and low intelligence. 263 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: Uh I doubt if she thinks it's the same one 264 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: men do it, which is therein is it's as black 265 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: and white as you can be, Like, what's the difference? Well, yeah, 266 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: I think that it's ultimately the thing. I think that 267 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: that kind of is a I think that argument misses 268 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: the point and it pops up a lot people who 269 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: defend girls and women's right to vocal fry or up 270 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: speak or say like or just as another one, you're 271 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: very guilty of that. It's like hedging your your actions, 272 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: Like I was just saying, not like I'm saying like 273 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: this is what I'm saying, it's I was just saying, like, 274 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to tone it down a little bit. Well, 275 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: it's the same thing with women feeling like they need 276 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: to apologize all the time. Sure, using sorry a lot, 277 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: um with vocal fry in particular, though there's it doesn't 278 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't really denote anything like what the people who 279 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: are saying it it does does like, it doesn't necessarily 280 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: denote that you don't have any confidence in what you're saying. Um, 281 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: I could see something like hedging things with just a 282 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: lot or saying sorry a lot. Maybe so, But the 283 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: idea that um, women have to be given advice on 284 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: how to speak to pep up in this you know, 285 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: male dominated world. Again, I feel like it misses the point. 286 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: I think that the better argument is to basically say, hey, UM, 287 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: what's the name of the mirror you're looking into their buddy? 288 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: What's your problem? Like, really, honestly, what is your problem? 289 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: Not why you know? Yes, let's get on the bandwagon 290 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: and rail against girls and women who do this and 291 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: totally ignore men that do. But what's the real problem? 292 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: And I think ultimately the real problem is these men have, 293 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: whether they realize it or not, UM identified girls as 294 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: significant agents of change that are bringing along a different 295 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: world than these men grew up and were accustomed to UM. 296 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: And and they're right in a lot of ways. There's 297 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:56,479 Speaker 1: actually UM studies that point to women and especially young girls, 298 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: as the agents have changed when it comes to grammar, 299 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: vocabul larry UM and speech patterns in the Western world 300 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,239 Speaker 1: for hundreds of years. Now, UM, did you read did 301 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: you read a little bit about that study? Which one? 302 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: So there was one in UM, I believe two thousand nine. 303 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: And get this, these two finished researchers poured over six 304 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 1: thousand letters, six thousand letters and um. They were from 305 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: fourteen seventeen to sixteen eighty one, and they found written letters. 306 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: They found frond these letters in the Western world that um, 307 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: women tended to adopt new world new words faster, discard 308 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: old words faster, and um just change their grammar and 309 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: uh speech patterns are writing patterns much quicker than men did. 310 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: And then other studies have shown that men tend to 311 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: pick up on this about ten to twenty years later. 312 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: So I think, what's going on When you're saying, well, 313 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: men do it too, It's like, yeah, men didn't do 314 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: it at first, men are starting to do it now. 315 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: So if you take all this as as fact and 316 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: correct scientifically, then what we're seeing now is the widespread 317 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: adoption of a change in speech pattern that began twenty 318 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: years ago with younger women right in the valley and 319 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: has spread to the rest of culture. Um and is 320 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: being adopted. And this change to the rules of grammar, 321 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: there are rules to how you talk and address people. 322 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: That that's what's being railed against the change. But really, ultimately, 323 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: again speaking from a pop psychology standpoint, it's the world 324 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: is changing, and these guys feel threatened by it because 325 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: they don't know what's going to come after this. Nothing, 326 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: that's the answer. People getting getting all worked up about 327 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: the way people talk is just it's folly. To me, 328 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: it's nothing. It's language. It changes. Nothing bad is going 329 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: to happen. They're gonna wake up tomorrow in the world's 330 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: gonna be exactly the same, right, They're just not gonna 331 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: like it the way some people talk. I think also 332 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: those it's deeper than that that. It's like they do 333 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: have something to fear. They do have like their nest 334 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: egg to to be lost in there in the stock 335 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: market when it drops automatically, or girls are going to 336 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: take their money, yeah exactly, you know, or not being 337 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: being able to be employable but still needing a job 338 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: at age seventy. You know. Like, I think there is 339 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: a lot to fear, and I think it's being projected 340 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: onto girls who vocal fry. Agreed, Okay, I'm all over 341 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: the place. Let's take a break. I need to regain 342 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: my composure, all right, all right, chuckers. So you're kind 343 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: of talking about, um, you know why people vocal fry, right, 344 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: and um, there's some pretty good answers to it that 345 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: have been studied. Um. In addition, to like up speak 346 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: where you are it's a placeholder where you're saying, don't 347 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: interrupt me, there's more to come, or are you following 348 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: this because I'm really trying to keep you engaged here, 349 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: you know, like when you hear someone, when you hear 350 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: an interrogative at the end of a statement, you're immediately like, oh, 351 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: I'm I'm expected to respond, so I better be paying attention. 352 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: So this is almost like tricking people into paying attention. 353 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: That's another way to do it. It sounds like a 354 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 1: pretty good move to me. On the other side again, Uh, 355 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: there's the idea that it says that women are unsure 356 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: of their opinion or anybody who uses up speak unsure 357 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: their opinion. Um, By by keeping it a question, it 358 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: suggests that you can easily back off of it and 359 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: to your statement that much exactly. And I actually saw something. 360 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: It was a two thousand one article in The Guardian 361 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: about up speak in particular, and um they were saying 362 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: that some people believe that up speak became prevalent as 363 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: a result of PC, like the political correctness movement, to 364 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: where it gives you the chance to be like but 365 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: I don't really agree with that, you know, depending on 366 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: the micro expressions of the person exactly. Yeah. Um, and 367 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: that one actually, that one kind of holds water in 368 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: a sense because we've definitely entered a second phase of 369 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: like the PC movement. It's definitely been a surgeon it 370 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: about the same time as the surgeon up speaker with 371 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: it becoming widespread. It's possibility. Again, no one has any 372 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: idea at this point, but those are kind of the 373 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: two sides for up speak with vocal fry, it is um. 374 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: The critics of it say that it it suggests that 375 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: you are you sounded unenthusiastic. And on the other side, Yeah, 376 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: that's actually one of the tools that it it is 377 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: that maybe they're unenthusiastic about what they're saying. But you 378 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: also said that it's um. It's been found to be employed, 379 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: especially by younger girls when they're trying to sound authoritative. 380 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what some linguists have said. Uh, here's 381 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: another terrible study for you, and this one got a 382 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: lot of press. I remember when it came out that 383 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: you will have a harder time getting a job, um 384 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: if you use vocal fry and up speak. And for 385 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: this one, uh, they had two different recording recordings they 386 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: played too, and four hundred women for a range of 387 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: groups asked them to rate the speakers and who who 388 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: you might hire, and no one wanted to hire the 389 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: vocal fryers. And what they came out with later was, oh, 390 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: by the way, we didn't just use regular people who 391 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: happened to vocal fry. We got people to vocal fry 392 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: on purpose, like to act it out and to do 393 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,239 Speaker 1: an accent, which is just throw the whole study out 394 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: the window. Then we'll see in their in their defense, 395 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: I'm sure this was all in the study, but the 396 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: people in the media who reported on it didn't bother 397 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: to read the study. They read the abstract, and then 398 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: that's where all the headlines the tour through the news 399 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: cycle came from. Right, So the idea that, um, these 400 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: people who were who were trained as part of the 401 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: study to speak in vocal fry, we're not native vocal 402 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: fry speakers. The idea is that that they came off 403 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: sounding like robotic and stilted in that it really has 404 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: nothing to do with vocal fright. It's like you wouldn't 405 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: hire somebody who's doing a bad mock British accent like 406 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: me doing what. I don't know, like they hired what 407 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: if they hired me to do a study on like 408 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: what British people thought of their accents and they're like, 409 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: let's get Chuck to do it, so do it? Well, No, 410 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: of course not, but terrible mate. Kind of funny. Actually, Uh, 411 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: a lot of our colleagues, I mean we're kind of 412 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: getting on this late. A lot of our colleagues have 413 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: already covered this. Um, I were glass. Um did a 414 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: segment on vocal fry and he said that listeners always 415 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: complained about young women reporting on our show. Um, they 416 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: used to complain about like and up speak, but now 417 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: it's vocal fry and he said, I am a vocal 418 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 1: fryer self admitted, and no one ever writes me about that. Yeah, exactly. 419 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: And then um our buddy Roman Mars the Great Invisible 420 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: his producer Katie Mingle. At one point they were getting 421 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: so many emails about it. She uh, she got a 422 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: auto reply. Right. They set up an auto reply that 423 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: would basically scan your email to look for keywords and 424 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: you could determine that you were complaining about her voice. 425 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: This is what you got. Yeah, it said you've written 426 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: in to voice your dislike of one of our female 427 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: reporters voices. You're not alone. We have a filter setup 428 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: that automatically since these types of emails into a folder 429 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: labeled zero priority. We'll review this folder and consider the 430 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: complaints within. Well. Never Amazingly, we don't even have a 431 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: folder for complaints about the mail voices on our show. 432 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: But because we've never gotten one, isn't that strange? We 433 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: think so? Anyway, I hope you can continue to enjoy 434 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: your free podcast somehow. I love that one. Uh. And 435 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: if you can't, there are plenty of shows that don't 436 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: feature women's voices at all. Boom, I know that's one 437 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: of the great all time auto applies. Yeah, that's pretty great, guys, So, 438 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: Roman and Katie, good for you. I love it. Yeah, 439 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: but you talked earlier about some of our colleagues also 440 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: have gone to training and linguists to reduce their vocal fry. 441 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: And uh, which one was it? Yeah, Jessica Gross who 442 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: does a slate podcast or did I'm not sure if 443 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: she's still doing it called double x cab Fest. She 444 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: actually went to a voice coach after receiving complaints. And uh, 445 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: people like Penny Eckert, who is a linguist are saying, no, 446 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: don't do that, like you're an agent of change, is 447 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: what you are, right, And that's um. The weird thing 448 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,959 Speaker 1: is is that would place if if we are watching, um, 449 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: the evolution of Western speech, especially here in the United 450 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: States right now, right and men are starting to vocal 451 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: fry more and more. Men are starting to use up 452 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: speak more and more, which suggests that these things are 453 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: going to become increasingly widespread as the years go by. 454 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: Then the women who are doing it now are in 455 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,479 Speaker 1: a like a really terrible position because they grew up 456 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: talking like this and now they're being forced to change 457 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: and and emulate. They'll they'll say the predominant white male 458 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: version of talking while the men are adopting it more 459 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: and more, and then eventually down the road, the women 460 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: will be able to take it on again once enough 461 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 1: men do. And that nuts, But that's probably where things 462 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: are going. But in the meantime, people like Jessica Gross 463 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: have to go to speech therapists to learn to talk 464 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: right as far as her listeners go. And she was 465 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: really worried that her career was being affected by this. 466 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 1: And yeah, like you said, Penny Eckert, the linguists who 467 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: who's UM quoted beneath her in this NPR article is 468 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: saying like, yeah, this is ridiculous. You can't tell people 469 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: how to talk, Like, I can't imagine a better way 470 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: to just off handedly and casually trip somebody up and 471 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: make them totally self conscious. Then saying, by the way 472 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: your voice annoys everybody, do something about it. Yeah, I 473 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: can't imagine freaget that gross also points out the MPR 474 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: article is great. They did an interview with a few 475 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: a few women UM linguists and podcasters, and she points 476 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: out about it's not just with the voice, it's UM 477 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,479 Speaker 1: with clothes a wear, and she used Silicon Valley as 478 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: an example. Mark Zuckerberg wears a T shirt and a 479 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: hoodie to work every day, and all of a sudden, 480 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: women who work in Silicon Valley, if you dress up 481 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: and try and look nice, it's it goes against you. Yeah, 482 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: you must be a dragon lady. Yeah, Like, what's wrong 483 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: with you? Why you? What's are you not smart? While 484 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: you're trying to you're trying to distract me with your 485 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: good looks and you're nice skirt? Right? Where are something dumpy? 486 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: So now, of course the culture there is you go 487 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: to work in Silicon Valley with your stupid hoodie and 488 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: T shirt on to fit in. So I also saw 489 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: another example. There was a New York Magazine UM article 490 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: from I'm not entirely certain win, but it was called UM, 491 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: can we just like get over the way women talk? 492 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: By Ann Friedman? It was from July, and she uh 493 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: interviews a I think a feminist professor. Yeah, who's basically saying, like, 494 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: women are damned one way or another, right, Like, if 495 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: they talk like men, they come off as overly aggressive 496 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: and assertive. If they talk like women, they come off 497 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: as dumb and unable to h to stand behind what 498 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: they're saying. You have any conviction about what they're saying, 499 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: It's like, which one do you want? Well, in that case, 500 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: it's like, well, if you're the agent of change, I 501 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: just go with that one, the one that's changing, the 502 00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: one that that that you feel comfortable talking. Agreed. I 503 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: read a cool article from The Guardian too that UM 504 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: that showed that at Oxford University, young women get five 505 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: ten percent fewer first class degrees in English, even though 506 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: the exams are graded blindly, and professors there say it's 507 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: because he observes female students and women saying like letting 508 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: the men speak first and second and third before they 509 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: even jump in, So they're not even getting a chance 510 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: to like shine because they're just so used to deferring 511 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: to the jens in the group. And I think that 512 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: that's probably something it's not necessarily just gender based, but um, 513 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: I think that that's just a lack of confidence. That's 514 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: displaying a lack of confidence, and I think it comes 515 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: from just being treated that way your whole life. Agreed. Uh, 516 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: here's another one from Amy Giddon, is director of Corporate 517 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: Leadership at Bernard's College Athenis Center for Leadership Studies. That's 518 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: a long one and she said, the deal though, is 519 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: there's a It's not that these women aren't confident. There's 520 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: a disconnect going on because she interviewed these ladies and 521 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,239 Speaker 1: they are self advocates, and they feel like they're uh 522 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: confident in their abilities and their smarts and ability to 523 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: get things done, but they can't speak well about those 524 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: things according to men in the room. So it's it's 525 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: not a lack of confidence. They have the confidence, it's 526 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: just I think her point was that men pay attention 527 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: to what men say and how women say things not 528 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: necessarily what they're saying, which is just stupid yea and 529 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: not fair. Plus also I think, um, if you like, 530 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: if you are around somebody that you don't like, you're 531 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: probably going to focus more on their perceived flaws. And 532 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: if it's something like vocal fry or something like uh 533 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: up speak, you're going to you're gonna you're gonna zero 534 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: win on that basically. Yeah, So I wonder like how 535 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: much of it is just misogyny too? Oh man? And 536 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: this one, this is a great quote. Uh, this is 537 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: stuff is just one more way of telling powerful women 538 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: to shut up. That kind of nails it on the head. 539 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: Like I read that quote and that that crystallized it 540 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: for me. It's like you said, it's disguised Uh not 541 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: so like heavily disguised sexism. I think it's repulsive. It is. See, 542 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: are you got anything else? I got nothing else except 543 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: just to you know, be yourself, be an agent of change. 544 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: Don't listen to Bob Garfield, you know what. I hope 545 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: this gets to him, Uh if you, oh man, it 546 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: really might more with Bob Garfield, if you that'll bear 547 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: a second. This year, who was the other. Oh, the 548 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: Australia in jerk. Yeah. If you want to learn more 549 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: about vocal fry, you can step out on the street 550 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: and prick up your ears. You can also go to 551 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com and type those words in 552 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: the search bar. And since I said perk, it's time 553 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: for a listener mail, I'm gonna call this cult deprogramming 554 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: um guys who grew up in a cultish environment. It 555 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: wasn't like Jim Jones Crew. However, the group made a 556 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: clear distinction between us and them, and getting out was difficult. 557 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: I was only able to get free a couple of 558 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: years ago, at the age of twenty four, and because 559 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: of most of my current friends are still involved, I 560 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: have ended the courage to tell them I'm still not 561 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: out yet. I attended an independent Fundamental Baptist Church. Baptist 562 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: churches in general aren't cults. In fact, I still attended 563 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: Baptist Church, but the I F B Churches are a 564 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: thing into themselves. They stand opposed to modern music, alcohol, 565 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,239 Speaker 1: and all Bible translations except the King James version. Uh. 566 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: Some take it further and add movie theaters, pants on women, 567 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: beards on men, swimming, and mixed coum any and anything 568 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: else you can imagine to the list of the foreboding. Uh. 569 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: These ideas problematic because there are not why I consider 570 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: my previous environment to meet cultish. Rather, it was an 571 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 1: attitude with which they viewed dissent. Modern Bible versions are 572 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: not simply inferior than King James. They are part of 573 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: the conspiracy to introduce error into God's word and poison 574 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: believers faith. Modern music, even contemporary worship music, channels demons 575 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: and feeds the flesh. It even kills plants. He didn't 576 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: follow up on that. Asking why we should believe these 577 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: things is welcome since it gives the leaders an opportunity 578 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: to allow I'm sorry, I all for canned answers that 579 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: we can regurgitate two liberal contemporary crowd end quote. So basically, 580 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: you're not questioning the interpretation, you're questioning God himself. So uh, 581 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: he says. Now, I am happily a member of a 582 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 1: more contemporary Baptist church that, while still fairly conservative it's 583 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: beliefs and practices, is much more open minded. Keep up 584 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: the awesome more that is from Anonymous, because I will 585 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: hunt him down. Thanks Anonymous, appreciate that. Yeah, he was like, oh, 586 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: totally read it. He or she that is, yeah, did 587 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: you give it away? Take my name off of it? 588 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: He or she said that yes they did. If you 589 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 1: want to supplement an episode that we have recorded, you 590 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: can get in touch with us by tweeting to us 591 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: at S why SK Podcast. You can join us on 592 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: Facebook dot com, slash stuff you Should Know. You can 593 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: send us an email to Stuff Podcast at house stuff 594 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: works dot com, and as always, join us at our 595 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 1: home on the web, Stuff you Should Know dot com 596 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics because 597 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: it house stuff works dot com